Does anyone know of some Universalist mystics, or visionaries

[claypot]

Music to my ears Nathan. Tis truely good to know who the enemy is and where he is.

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Nate, I'm always blessed by what you share and I agree with this in principle and as the source of where demons come from. BUT.....I was not taught about them by doctrines of men, or men, I was taught about them by God, who saw fit to have one enter my world via my friend who was nearly possessed one night, in April of '86 and used by Him as the catalyst for my finding Him.

I didn't want to believe it, but when faced with irrefutable proof by being dropped into the midst of such a situation, with tangible physical evidence that was in no way possible for the carnal mind to create, it begs, no SCREAMS, consideration.  :laughing7:

Even the jailers here know what demonic possession is like, having had more than one inmate who would wake up "slimed" (just as my friend was) from the exit and entrance of the demon at night.  :mshock:

Yes, the mind planted the seed, and our "Eve"/womb, mother of all living (outside of Him) created it by giving it life, but to say they are not real entities, I cannot agree with. My  :2c: Blessings....

[claypot]

Card, forgive me for butting in here but something you said really causes me to think so I am thinking out loud here.

Demons are real entities you said.

I would say they are too and I think Nate would too. To me all spiritual has it's counterpart in the physical and vice versa. This imo is why God created all as He did. I think Adam was a real human yet I believe he represents so much more.

I think what happens is one side gets emphasized more than the other and then the other seems to not exist. I see the Bible as a physical book and a spiritual one too. I know you know all this but just wanted to put in my  :2c:

cp

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well, perhaps I misunderstood what he was trying to convey, then. I thought he was saying basically, that they are just in people's minds, not real.  :dontknow: If I misundstood Nate, forgive me.  :girlheart:

[claypot]

Card,

You do make me think and let me say that I am not in the least qualified to speak for Nate but I wanted to give my opinion.

cp

[Nathan]

Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Cardinal, I don't try to denounce another's experience.  I try not to denounce anyone, I try to stick with sharing what I see and let the others do the judging.  But . .what if . . .what if what we "call" demons and spirits can actually be tied to our subconsciousness that's  creating slime and such.  

This is what I mean when I say we don't have much of a clue as to what kind of powers we are equipped with.  We see extremes of such things and write them off as extremists.  However, who's to say we are "equipped" to move objects with our minds.  To influencing tangible things through waves of thought?

This is actually a whole doctrine we're talking about.  If I believe in spiritual demons as we've been taught . . .then that means there's truth to the devil being this great dark invisible being that deceived a third of God's "perfect created beings" of angels . . .I don't buy into that anymore.

Can anyone explain how Jesus speaks words and natural elements respond immediately?  We are equipped with that same power.  We call it the Holy Spirit, but WHERE is the Holy Spirit?  Is he some outward force that responds to our becon call?  Or is he "in" us?  And if he's "in" us . . .WHERE in us does he then dwell if it is not in our subconscious.

Here's what I'm seeing . . .what we call demons and spirits, the uncontrollable twitches, gags, vomitting, and anything else one may have seen in the exorcist . . .all of those things can be things connected to a subconcious level of activity.  I would say it's a broken subconsciousness where the person has lost control of it . . . but there is a creative power in every being that has been created by the Father that for the most part, we don't really know how to tap into that.  

Tradition tells us there's a gazillion spirits out there . .spirit of anger, spirit of hate, spirit of this, spirit of that . .but for me, they are again passing the blame on to something they claim is of a greater power than they and it's not them doing it . .so you gotta cast out the spirit . . .but when you do, they're not any different, they may feel emotionally charged by the experience, but the problem is not an outside spiritual force, it's an inward mindset.

The praying for one another is the process of inward realignment.  It's where "my" spirit returns back to it's rightful place on the throne within me and "that's" what brings about the change in me so my anger isn't so quick to surface, my hate isn't so easy to trigger . . .it's not because you cast a demon out of me, it's because the Spirit alignment my spirit and soul back to it's proper order.

UR believers have come to realize that hell isn't what they once thought it was.  I guess for me, I struggle in the idea that I can give up hell, but I'll continue to hold on to the devil, satan and his demons . . .for me, one supports the other, but when one goes, it begs the question . . .what about the others then?

I'm not saying something supernatural didn't take place with your friend who found slime on his body, what I'm saying is, I'm not so quick to say it's a demon anymore.  It's obvious there's something out of alignment.  I've stated before that I don't rely solely on Scripture to establish my faith, I refer to it, I reference it, but only after something has surfaced from within me.

In writing this little piece here, I'm still going through the process of trying to fully identify what it is I'm seeing and it's a process.  I can't jump up and down on this freely yet because I'm still waiting for things to solidify.  However, as I'm writing this, there is a reference that did come to mind . . .


Eph. 4
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The idea that there's only one spirit seems to get over looked in some of this.

For me, growing in the Lord it's reaffirming what I think I already know.  Growing to me is being stretched by things I don't know.  There's a lot about God that I don't know.  And I don't want to have my head deter what my heart is trying to receive.  So I lay it all down and go from there.  If anything, listen for the sound of what I say.  I'm not speaking out of condemnation or judgment.  I'm not trying to bring conformity to you.  My purpose still is to attempt to illuminate the kingdom principles, the nature of the Father and most near and dear to me, to assist in setting people free from the bondage of their "self".

If you don't accept this, that's cool.  If you don't see it, I'm fine with that.  Things like this are prone to lead to at least "some" wonderment.  It's totally understandable.  It's very much in the face of traditional understanding, totally aware of that to.  I'm at the place anymore where I'm more apt to share what I see regardless of the nature of it's depth and let the readers and listeners take what they wish from it, rather than try to condense and conform bits and pieces of what I do understand so I can manipulate and intimidate everyone to think "this" is it.

We compare what others see with what we've seen and respond, hopefully in a loving manner, accordingly.  It's how we grow.

[claypot]

Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Your response to Card is very well put. Very well. Both what you see satan and demons to be and how we should all communicate to each other. Card of course, Is always gracious when responding but what you said was very good for me to hear and I'm  sure others will benefit from your words.

Now you have me questioning myself as to what physical or spiritual form satan would have if indeed 'he' is other than you (and I for the most part) see?

cp

[thinktank]

Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Cardinal, I don't try to denounce another's experience.  I try not to denounce anyone, I try to stick with sharing what I see and let the others do the judging.  But . .what if . . .what if what we "call" demons and spirits can actually be tied to our subconsciousness that's  creating slime and such.  

This is what I mean when I say we don't have much of a clue as to what kind of powers we are equipped with.  We see extremes of such things and write them off as extremists.  However, who's to say we are "equipped" to move objects with our minds.  To influencing tangible things through waves of thought?

This is actually a whole doctrine we're talking about.  If I believe in spiritual demons as we've been taught . . .then that means there's truth to the devil being this great dark invisible being that deceived a third of God's "perfect created beings" of angels . . .I don't buy into that anymore.

Can anyone explain how Jesus speaks words and natural elements respond immediately?  We are equipped with that same power.  We call it the Holy Spirit, but WHERE is the Holy Spirit?  Is he some outward force that responds to our becon call?  Or is he "in" us?  And if he's "in" us . . .WHERE in us does he then dwell if it is not in our subconscious.

Here's what I'm seeing . . .what we call demons and spirits, the uncontrollable twitches, gags, vomitting, and anything else one may have seen in the exorcist . . .all of those things can be things connected to a subconcious level of activity.  I would say it's a broken subconsciousness where the person has lost control of it . . . but there is a creative power in every being that has been created by the Father that for the most part, we don't really know how to tap into that.  

Tradition tells us there's a gazillion spirits out there . .spirit of anger, spirit of hate, spirit of this, spirit of that . .but for me, they are again passing the blame on to something they claim is of a greater power than they and it's not them doing it . .so you gotta cast out the spirit . . .but when you do, they're not any different, they may feel emotionally charged by the experience, but the problem is not an outside spiritual force, it's an inward mindset.

The praying for one another is the process of inward realignment.  It's where "my" spirit returns back to it's rightful place on the throne within me and "that's" what brings about the change in me so my anger isn't so quick to surface, my hate isn't so easy to trigger . . .it's not because you cast a demon out of me, it's because the Spirit alignment my spirit and soul back to it's proper order.

UR believers have come to realize that hell isn't what they once thought it was.  I guess for me, I struggle in the idea that I can give up hell, but I'll continue to hold on to the devil, satan and his demons . . .for me, one supports the other, but when one goes, it begs the question . . .what about the others then?

I'm not saying something supernatural didn't take place with your friend who found slime on his body, what I'm saying is, I'm not so quick to say it's a demon anymore.  It's obvious there's something out of alignment.  I've stated before that I don't rely solely on Scripture to establish my faith, I refer to it, I reference it, but only after something has surfaced from within me.

In writing this little piece here, I'm still going through the process of trying to fully identify what it is I'm seeing and it's a process.  I can't jump up and down on this freely yet because I'm still waiting for things to solidify.  However, as I'm writing this, there is a reference that did come to mind . . .


Eph. 4
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The idea that there's only one spirit seems to get over looked in some of this.

For me, growing in the Lord it's reaffirming what I think I already know.  Growing to me is being stretched by things I don't know.  There's a lot about God that I don't know.  And I don't want to have my head deter what my heart is trying to receive.  So I lay it all down and go from there.  If anything, listen for the sound of what I say.  I'm not speaking out of condemnation or judgment.  I'm not trying to bring conformity to you.  My purpose still is to attempt to illuminate the kingdom principles, the nature of the Father and most near and dear to me, to assist in setting people free from the bondage of their "self".

If you don't accept this, that's cool.  If you don't see it, I'm fine with that.  Things like this are prone to lead to at least "some" wonderment.  It's totally understandable.  It's very much in the face of traditional understanding, totally aware of that to.  I'm at the place anymore where I'm more apt to share what I see regardless of the nature of it's depth and let the readers and listeners take what they wish from it, rather than try to condense and conform bits and pieces of what I do understand so I can manipulate and intimidate everyone to think "this" is it.

We compare what others see with what we've seen and respond, hopefully in a loving manner, accordingly.  It's how we grow.

Nathan I feel partly to blame for your changing perspective of demons, for I remember talking about metaphysics and subconcious phenomana. What you are saying is partly true and interesting, but remember that science is in it's infancy regarding the deeper levels of the mind and cannot explain everything. We have the words of Jesus that explain unclean spirits as seperate beings that manifest with startling results, he has also given us authority over all unclean spirits, whereas a subconcious mind belongs totally to the owner and is similar to a garden that sometimes contains weeds, which the bible calls strongholds, take every thought captive  etc.

But demons in the bible walk around in dry places seeking who they may devour, we have the occult for example, who do not hide their involvement with demons. You don't see much demonic activity these days it is mostly hidden behind closed doors, our society is much too sophisticated to belive/recognize demons, doctors etc, look entirely at the physical and ignore the spiritual level, many diseases etc are not even understood by doctors/medical authorities. Tourettes sydrome for example, where people unexpicable spurt out bad language, why don't they say good words?
This is just one example of the many things these days that are described as an uncurable illness.
Poltergeist activity is also documented in various houses, the bible does warn that lands can become defiled with unholy shrines and objects and various occult activity, etc.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

I'm not sure I want to get to caught up in your argument here.  I for one, thoroughly enjoy Willie's insights and I've also seen him from time to time become quite passionate about what he sees.  I think you may be experiencing that passion.  I think many who read these comments also see there is the potential of division here due mostly to personality differences.  I pray the sharings continue, but that love abounds.

You know me well my brother... I only mean love in my words, but I realize they can be at times a bit "over the top"... its just how I speak.  No harm is intended to T-tank or anyone else.  As you say... passion is involved... I speak of the Lord as do I play music... with all that I have...

Willie, you have helped me tremendously in seeing things much more clearly.  I truly appreciate your insights.

Thank you for these kind words... might I pass them on to CHRIST for (as, knowing you, you shall whole-heartedly agree), it is to His credit that any of us prosper from the words of one another... I have gained much from reading and absorbing many wisdoms of His coming forth from you as well!  :friendstu:

:Peace: me bratha...  :icon_rr:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Nathan]

No TT. you weren't the first source where I saw these things.  You were just the latest.   I read a tiny little pamphlet called "quantum faith" by Annette Capps a while back.  She's the daughter of another well known author, Charles Capps who has written several books on the power of the spoken tongue.  That little pamphlet she wrote is what really planted the original seed that led to these things.  Such an eye-opening little book.  It was only like a half-hour read, but it was so well done that even in that short of time, it was mind-blowing.  It cost like $3.

But once again, for every instance you read in Scripture about demons, you could easily replace "demon" with the nature of your carnal mind.  Man, when left to his own means, becomes a destructive force against himself.  It's that fallen nature that thrives in flesh. Interesting thing you referred to Tourettes.  That was in the back of my mind the whole time I was trying to explain how there are so many parts to the human brain we know very little about.

Back in the day, the person with Tourettes would be considered demon possessed.  Today, there's a clinical name for the "condition" of the brain.  I don't think it's demonic, but I do think it's spiritual.  What I mean is, in their spirit, there's been some kind of disconnect and the carnal mind is in direct control.  Carnality spews darkness.  I'll lay hands on them, as I said before, and pray over them and I'll speak to the broken places and call for light and illumination in them and for them to let it go and everything that a person praying against a demon would pray, except for me calling it a demon.

For me, the thing is, whether I'm right or wrong isn't the issue.  The underlying key through this whole conversation is, that we pursue Christ no matter what.  If I walk in the spirit and I'm wrong and these are truly demons as we've been taught, am I still not equipped by the blood of the Lamb to be able to walk on serpents and not be harmed?  I have friends and even relatives in ministries relating to this and unfortunately, they can't accept my perspective either because their ministry for emphasizing their existance has become their identity.  Which is another related problem with this.

My identity should be in my relationship with Christ, not in the works I perform that I began exercising in on my quest to learn "about" Christ.  Hardest thing to lay down is that which you identify with the most.  Remember that guy that went to Jesus to ask him what he had to do to be a follower . . .Jesus response was for him to give up everything he owned.  It's not just about tangible possessions, that could also include everything we've accumulated about God up to now.  

Jesus stated the temple they tore down would be one that "he" would raise back up.  Not the people, not doctrines of men, but the Manna, the "what is it?" would raise it up and the cornerstone is the communion of the Father with us, revealing the nature of his Son in the hearts of men.  Demons or no demons, doesn't really matter.  Christ needs to be my centerpiece.  I am willing to let go of my doctrine of demons all together and let him rebuild his truths in me, and in faith, I believe he's done just that.

[willieH]

Been over this once before, but because you asked the question again Molly, I'll throw this out again. 
Ephesians 6
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

the devil's schemes
Schemes?  The devil is the same as the serpent in Genesis, the most "subtle" beast in all the field.  This is still depicting the carnality of the natural realm.  It's like how the moon affects our earth.  We can't see it doing anything, but we know without it life on earth would not ever be the same.  Carnality, the pull of the flesh is there, always nagging, constantly trying to distract and destruct.

2 Corinthians 10
3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete.
7You are looking only on the surface of things . . .

The reason we can't seem to let go of the idea that principalities and powers is dealing with demonic heiarchy is due to it being ingrained into our "minds" by other men's teachings.  But when you start breaking this down, a different pattern seems to materialize.  And that is, these weapons of warfare are not for spirits outside of us, they are more mental blocks and strongholds "inside" of us.

Arguements, pretensions set up against "knowledge". . .taking captive every "thought". . .these weapons of warfare are not demonic, it's speaking of mental warfare going on inwardly. 

And Molly, you hit the nail on the head with your question and I quote . . .
How can I fight a war if I don't know who the enemy is?

My answer is . . .one you can't.  Two, your not supposed to, it's not your battle, the battle is the Lord's.  Three, by entering into the person of rest, you've laid down your weapons and traded up for plowshares. And four, THAT'S why I keep pounding on this topic so much.  I "do" know who the enemy is, it's ME!  My flesh!  My carnal nature!  My MIND.

:thumbsup:  :2thumbs:  Three thumbs UP!

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Nathan]

willieH: Hi brother N... :hithere:

I'm not sure I want to get to caught up in your argument here.  I for one, thoroughly enjoy Willie's insights and I've also seen him from time to time become quite passionate about what he sees.  I think you may be experiencing that passion.  I think many who read these comments also see there is the potential of division here due mostly to personality differences.  I pray the sharings continue, but that love abounds.

You know me well my brother... I only mean love in my words, but I realize they can be at times a bit "over the top"... its just how I speak.  No harm is intended to T-tank or anyone else.  As you say... passion is involved... I speak of the Lord as do I play music... with all that I have...

Willie, you have helped me tremendously in seeing things much more clearly.  I truly appreciate your insights.

Thank you for these kind words... might I pass them on to CHRIST for (as, knowing you, you shall whole-heartedly agree), it is to His credit that any of us prosper from the words of one another... I have gained much from reading and absorbing many wisdoms of His coming forth from you as well!  :friendstu:

:Peace: me bratha...  :icon_rr:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thanks Willie, I seriously treasure your thoughts.  I've followed you closely through all of your responses to various people and situations and I always find myself grinning at the skill with which you apply your sword.  I do enjoy eating under such a wonderful chef as you are.  Your skill at using the Word, correctly dividing . . . "that" for me is the true reason for studying Scripture.  You master it beautifully and I do feel your passion.

Party on bro.

[Cardinal]

Card, forgive me for butting in here but something you said really causes me to think so I am thinking out loud here.

Demons are real entities you said.

I would say they are too and I think Nate would too. To me all spiritual has it's counterpart in the physical and vice versa. This imo is why God created all as He did. I think Adam was a real human yet I believe he represents so much more.

I think what happens is one side gets emphasized more than the other and then the other seems to not exist. I see the Bible as a physical book and a spiritual one too. I know you know all this but just wanted to put in my  :2c:

cp

:cloud9: CP, I agree, and I'm aware of all the abuses this subject has brought into the body, yet I have not seen or heard anything from Him that would lead me to think otherwise, YET.

I can see a "blending" of sorts between what Nate is saying, and what I am saying, in reference to how they are created. That's about as "far" as I can presently go with it. That's where I'm at right now. My  :2c: Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  :happygrin:

Before I begin, I must say that I am very much in alignment with the perspectives and humilities expressed by Nathan...  :thumbsup:

Nathan I feel partly to blame for your changing perspective of demons, for I remember talking about metaphysics and subconcious phenomana.

I am wondering why you might have deduced this, T-tank?  Have you actually seen Nathan's beliefs "morph" to a different area, in the short time that YOU have been here, concerning this subject?   :dunno:

That Nathan has taken into consideration the KNOWLEDGE revelations gained by science (all knowledge is of GOD), has likely been going on in him as he has lived and observed, during the entirety of life and study, ...not just since you may have mentioned "metaphysics or subconcious phemomenon"...  :dontknow:

I can testify that before I became a believer in CHRIST, ...that I both questioned and agreed with science's conjectures...  I for one, do not believe "men went to the moon", for instance...  Just because "science" approves or disapproves, does not establish knowledge.  This same thing is true in the Spiritual as well... just because one does not "believe" this or that, does not "KILL" the perception... nor does "belief" give it "LIFE" in other than the one "believing"...

What you are saying is partly true and interesting, but remember that science is in it's infancy regarding the deeper levels of the mind and cannot explain everything.

Something I can agree with T-tank...  :wink1:

That scientific genious such as Einstein estimated that men do not even have a perception of even 1% of total reality, is a somewhat revealing admission from the "mouth of science", that negates the idea that it might even REMOTELY esteem itself to having an ability to "deduce" the complete workings of the human mind ["explaining everything"]. 

This admission of Einstein, is a FAR CRY from "explaining EVERYTHING" concerning the deeper levels of the mind... and to call its present knowledge as in "infancy" is to give it more credit than it really deserves...  I'd say its more in the "FETAL" or "EMBRYO" stage of understanding...  :laughing7:

We have the words of Jesus that explain unclean spirits as seperate beings that manifest with startling results

JESUS NEVER spoke of unclean spirits as SEPARATE BEINGS... where did He say that?

YOU say ---> "we have the WORDS of JESUS" ...please provide these "WORDS"!

Science does this very same thing on a DAILY basis -- just tune into the DISCOVERY or HISTORY channels or pick up a magazine such as TIME...  Falsely spouting THEORY or HYPOTHESIS as FACT, when all these WORDS of theirs, are nothing but conjectures made of LIMITED VISION, of that which "MIGHT" be so...  :thumbdown:

You do this very thing (as does science in their conjectures) with CHRIST, in this statement above.

But demons in the bible walk around in dry places seeking who they may devour

"Walk around"?  ..."in DRY places"?  Where are you getting all this stuff, T-tank?  :dontknow:

we have the occult for example, who do not hide their involvement with demons. You don't see much demonic activity these days it is mostly hidden behind closed doors, our society is much too sophisticated to belive/recognize demons, doctors etc, look entirely at the physical and ignore the spiritual level, many diseases etc are not even understood by doctors/medical authorities. Tourettes sydrome for example, where people unexpicable spurt out bad language, why don't they say good words?

Seems to me that many "bad words" are withheld in the subconcious... Do you have any swirling about in your unspoken subconscious, about me, T-tank?  :laughing7:

This is just one example of the many things these days that are described as an uncurable illness.

There is no such thing as an "incurable illness"... only ones that a "cure" has not yet, been scientifically found...  To "say" a disease or illness is "incurable" is like saying -- "you can't get there FROM HERE"

Poltergeist activity is also documented in various houses, the bible does warn that lands can become defiled with unholy shrines and objects and various occult activity, etc.

The capacity of the human mind has ability FAR beyond what is generally recognized and/or accepted... and is able to do as DID JESUS, ...we just lack the faith to INITIATE it as did HE... 

There are many instances where things have been intermittently done by men (especially JESUS) which DEFY normal "time realm physics" while in the flesh...  levitations, moving objects without touching them, prophecy, etc.   

This is WHY the Pharisees often named the MIRACULOUS doings of CHRIST as "having a devil" or being "of the devil"... for He produced EXTRA-Physical Miracles which EXCEEDED the natural abilities of man, as observed by carnal minds...

JESUS had the FULLNESS of Divinity [WORD of YHVH God] dwelling within Him -- Col 2:9 -- we just have a "measure" of Him, called FAITH -- Col 3:11 -- Rom 12:3

...willieH  :icon_king:

[Molly]

I've seen demons that had nothing to do with me.  I wasn't imagining it.  It was real.  I know that people conjure them up and worship them, as well.  I'm wondering if those who deny such things have ever seen one?  They do submit to the name of Jesus in my experience.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

[claypot]

I've seen demons that had nothing to do with me.  I wasn't imagining it.  It was real.  I know that people conjure them up and worship them, as well.  I'm wondering if those who deny such things have ever seen one?  They do submit to the name of Jesus in my experience.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Molly, I seriously and respectfully ask you what these demons looked like? Can you give a physical description?

cp

[Molly]

I've seen demons that had nothing to do with me.  I wasn't imagining it.  It was real.  I know that people conjure them up and worship them, as well.  I'm wondering if those who deny such things have ever seen one?  They do submit to the name of Jesus in my experience.

Deuteronomy 32:17
They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

Molly, I seriously and respectfully ask you what these demons looked like? Can you give a physical description?

cp

amorphuous shape, horribly ugly, black, faces morphed into even uglier shapes as I was watching them, if that were possible.

I also lived in a haunted house for a while, just heard sounds, which everyone heard, and one person was touched on the neck by one.

The Bible also tells us Satan can appear as an angel of light--so apparently they can be beautiful, too.  I would liken this to some very charismatic people I have met.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[Nathan]

First off . . .Willie, you could write all day on this one and I'd eat it up, as it sounds like you've been in this much longer than I.  

And Molly . . .paradigm shifts are very unsettling.  It's like shedding a skin in that the questions in me aren't "are you sure this is true" but instead they are "are you sure you want to put this out there".  I don't want to be anti-anything.  I'm actually "daring" myself to step out into these waters and see what the Father is going to further reveal.  In faith, I'm seeing these things take shape.  

The things Willie just threw out there in his last posts seem to be solidifying other things I've seen but not mentioned.  "That's" why I enjoy the forum.  It does stretch me.  Cardnal is good at stretching me.  She's obviously been in places I've not been and has many experiences that I couldn't take away from her if I wanted to.

But to answer your general question as one that does appear to be denying demons as we know them, yes, I've been on both sides of this.  Back in '96, I was in the latter part of my school of ministry classes when I was released to teach an adult class in our rather large church.  The Thursday night before I was to start teaching, I was setting in my class and the teacher stated a somewhat controversial statement.

As much as I am now pro-dimensional/pattern/spiritual principles oriented, I was just as emphatic about embracing only what Scripture states, no ifs, ands, or buts.  But when the teacher, whom I had and still have a great respect for, when he made the statement, my body reacted to it like I'd been grazed by a shock wave.  I began to fidget.  I knew that I was doing it and even thought it odd that I was, but it didn't stop.

I kept shifting my weight back and forth in the chair.  Nervously rocking my leg or twitching my foot, wringing my hands . .this went on for several minutes, finally the teacher stopped what he was saying and addressed me, asking me if everything was all right.  It wasn't but I didn't know that.  I started to weep.  For no reason . . .nobody else was showing any emotion.  I also thought I must be more spiritually sensitive than they.

The teacher came over to me and sort of kneeled over me for a few minutes without saying anything.  Then he sat in front of me, took my hands and gently stated that I was not to be offended at what he was about to do or say.  By this time I was just blubbering and sobbing.  He prayed a prayer of deliverance . . .after some time went by, it lifted and class was over.  

I knew something had happened that night.  The one thing I distinctly remember was, I was attending my Father's funeral . .not only attending, I was facilitating it.  That had more impact on me than anything.  I wasn't going through the school of minsitry for any ministry, even though the classes were like $90 a class.  I went because I was so hungry for God that I wanted everything they had to offer.  When I got the teaching role, I assumed that was why God led me into the classes.

My Mom kept telling me I was going to be a preacher I kept denying it and told her to listen better because God was saying "T"eacher.  Little did I know, 6 years later I'm issued a pastor's license and a pulpit.  

It was a year after that incident that God revealed to me a couple things.  I grew up under a very religiously strict environment.  I had a very strong-willed mindset.  Back when it happened, I called it a religious spirit. . .like it was an outside being that secretly was lurking around in my personna.  But there was a misalignment that God did change in me that night.

And he waited until I was in the kingdom light just a few years ago that he revealed that when I was facilitating my Father's death, it wasn't about my physical Father, all though that can still happen . . .but it was about what was instilled in me by my upbringing that God was bringing to a death in me.  He was releasing me from my Father's doctrine so that I would mature into "my own" relationship with him.

My break here at work is over . . .but yes, I have been involved with what I used to see as the "demonic" first hand.

[Cardinal]

Claypot, I kinda slid from that into where I am now . . .so yeah, there was a time that I did say there are demons but then there are patterns in us that follow the same principles.  But somewhere along the way, I've continued to move away from the original thought of what I used to think demons are and it's come out in this instead.

Cardinal, I don't try to denounce another's experience.  I try not to denounce anyone, I try to stick with sharing what I see and let the others do the judging.  But . .what if . . .what if what we "call" demons and spirits can actually be tied to our subconsciousness that's  creating slime and such.

Nate, I don't have a problem with anyone believing this, I'm just saying I don't, and I'm sharing what I see, as well. I think we're seeing the same thing, in a way, just from different vantage points. I don't look at disagreeing as denouncing.

The Jews would present a precept or position in Torah at their yeshivas (schools for rabbis), with one intentionally looking for the opposing viewpoint possible from the scriptures (not conditional on whether or not he himself believed that particular viewpoint), expressly for the purpose of discovering greater understanding. Although we have the added benefit of the Spirit now to lead us, the discussion always is a benefit, one way or another. It's all about the motive of the heart.

This is what I mean when I say we don't have much of a clue as to what kind of powers we are equipped with.  We see extremes of such things and write them off as extremists.  However, who's to say we are "equipped" to move objects with our minds.  To influencing tangible things through waves of thought?

This is actually a whole doctrine we're talking about.  If I believe in spiritual demons as we've been taught . . .then that means there's truth to the devil being this great dark invisible being that deceived a third of God's "perfect created beings" of angels . . .I don't buy into that anymore.

I'm undecided on that.

Can anyone explain how Jesus speaks words and natural elements respond immediately?  We are equipped with that same power.  We call it the Holy Spirit, but WHERE is the Holy Spirit?  Is he some outward force that responds to our becon call?  Or is he "in" us?  And if he's "in" us . . .WHERE in us does he then dwell if it is not in our subconscious.

Maybe it's just a label, but I personally am not sure I believe in a subconscious mind. You find that term in the psychology circles, but where do we find it in the Word? Not trying to be difficult and split hairs here, but I say this based on a dream He gave me, that mentioned psychology. The carnal mind, yes. I think He dwells within our spirit, first, the rest gradually, as we grow.

Here's what I'm seeing . . .what we call demons and spirits, the uncontrollable twitches, gags, vomitting, and anything else one may have seen in the exorcist . . .all of those things can be things connected to a subconcious level of activity.  I would say it's a broken subconsciousness where the person has lost control of it . . . but there is a creative power in every being that has been created by the Father that for the most part, we don't really know how to tap into that.  

Tradition tells us there's a gazillion spirits out there . .spirit of anger, spirit of hate, spirit of this, spirit of that . .but for me, they are again passing the blame on to something they claim is of a greater power than they and it's not them doing it . .so you gotta cast out the spirit . . .but when you do, they're not any different, they may feel emotionally charged by the experience, but the problem is not an outside spiritual force, it's an inward mindset.

Here's what I'm seeing....sort of a, which is first, the chicken or the egg, scenario. The spirits presents the thought/seed, the seed is either accepted or rejected into the womb of the carnal mind (bringing all thoughts into captivity of the mind of Christ = rejecting the seed).

After it's acceptance, it begins to "speak" on a regular basis, producing an action eventually that produces a fruit. We can see the fruit and claim it as our nature, or see the root which is spiritual. And the thing is, if we accept the spirit, it does become part of our nature so entwined in the soul that only the Spirit can discern what is us and what is "memorex", which is why we are given the gift of discerning of spirits.

I will use myself as an example. I was delivered of a bad spirit of anger. What is cast out always seeks to come back, to that which has been swept but not garnished. Bread has to go thru the fire to be baked in us, and we have to stand in what we know, to have it made bread in us that can't be moved.

One day weeks after I was delivered of this, my X said something that really "hit" a sore spot and I instantly gave in to the thought of responding in kind, and the second I opened my mouth to give it voice, what had placed that thought before me LITERALLY flew into my mouth and down my throat. I FELT IT fly in. I coughed and hacked, realized what had happened, repented with tears, and sought Him to get set free of it again.

Believe me when I tell you had He not delivered me, when my son was beaten with steel pipes, brain damaged and nearly killed, and his attackers got off scott free, there is every possibility I would have killed them, had I ran into them, and I did run into the main one.

My friend discovered this pretty much the same way. I had been trying to tell her what had happened to me, regarding deliverance, but she had been taught that Christians can't have evil spirits (not talking demons here, evil spirits). She was at work, got mad at her boyfriend who also worked there, and since she believed they were only on the outside of you, began to pray them away from her. So she got mad, stayed in nearly a rage, tried to pray it away from her, until the Lord finally spoke to her, telling her, "It's not on the outside of you, it's on the inside of you."

She was shocked, but began to pray and see what He said to command out, same as I had tried to tell her He had done with me. She ended up going thru quite a few, and ended up going home to let Him finish the process as much as possible for that time.

The praying for one another is the process of inward realignment.  It's where "my" spirit returns back to it's rightful place on the throne within me and "that's" what brings about the change in me so my anger isn't so quick to surface, my hate isn't so easy to trigger . . .it's not because you cast a demon out of me, it's because the Spirit alignment my spirit and soul back to it's proper order.

UR believers have come to realize that hell isn't what they once thought it was.  I guess for me, I struggle in the idea that I can give up hell, but I'll continue to hold on to the devil, satan and his demons . . .for me, one supports the other, but when one goes, it begs the question . . .what about the others then?

I don't see a conflict in it, because of what I understand "hell" to be, personally. They are part of the bondage of corruption and vanity we were lowered into, IMO.

I'm not saying something supernatural didn't take place with your friend who found slime on his body, what I'm saying is, I'm not so quick to say it's a demon anymore.  It's obvious there's something out of alignment.  I've stated before that I don't rely solely on Scripture to establish my faith, I refer to it, I reference it, but only after something has surfaced from within me.

And so do I. My friend asked Him where the demon came from, and He told her she had created it out of the hate and murder of her own heart, a statement I have only recently come to understand as new revelation has come, even though He spoke it 24 years ago.

In writing this little piece here, I'm still going through the process of trying to fully identify what it is I'm seeing and it's a process.  I can't jump up and down on this freely yet because I'm still waiting for things to solidify.  However, as I'm writing this, there is a reference that did come to mind . . .


Eph. 4
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.  4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

The idea that there's only one spirit seems to get over looked in some of this.

I have heard that as a point on this topic before and I see that as one HOLY Spirit, or we would not need discerning of spirits.

For me, growing in the Lord it's reaffirming what I think I already know.  Growing to me is being stretched by things I don't know.  There's a lot about God that I don't know.  And I don't want to have my head deter what my heart is trying to receive.  So I lay it all down and go from there.  If anything, listen for the sound of what I say.  I'm not speaking out of condemnation or judgment.  I'm not trying to bring conformity to you.  My purpose still is to attempt to illuminate the kingdom principles, the nature of the Father and most near and dear to me, to assist in setting people free from the bondage of their "self".

I understand. I do the same thing.

If you don't accept this, that's cool.  If you don't see it, I'm fine with that.  Things like this are prone to lead to at least "some" wonderment.  It's totally understandable.  It's very much in the face of traditional understanding, totally aware of that to.  I'm at the place anymore where I'm more apt to share what I see regardless of the nature of it's depth and let the readers and listeners take what they wish from it, rather than try to condense and conform bits and pieces of what I do understand so I can manipulate and intimidate everyone to think "this" is it.

I hope you don't think that's what I do...

We compare what others see with what we've seen and respond, hopefully in a loving manner, accordingly.  It's how we grow.

:thumbsup: :girlheart:

[Nathan]

Discerning evil spirits Card, for me is not about devils and demons as much as it is about the motives of people, the personalities of people, the attitudes of people, to discern where "they" are coming from not so I can judge, but so that I not eat of their fruit.  For me, testing the spirits and listening for the sound is the same thing. 

Sound only comes from truth, anyting else is just a lot of noise.

[Molly]

and crying out with a loud voice, he said,
"What have I to do with you, Jesus, you Son of the Most High God?
I adjure you by God, don't torment me."
For he said to him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
He asked him, "What is your name?"
He said to him, "My name is Legion, for we are many."
He begged him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
Now there was on the mountainside a great herd of pigs feeding.
All the demons begged him, saying,
"Send us into the pigs, that we may enter into them."
At once Jesus gave them permission.
The unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs.
The herd of about two thousand rushed down the steep bank into the sea,
and they were drowned in the sea.

--Mark 5

[peacemaker]

"What is your name?"
"My name is Legion, for we are many."
"Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"

Legion, the man himself, believed he was demon possessed; having an amorphous personality which lacked any definite form.

However, I have two questions (anyone?):

Why did the pigs run over the cliff into the sea?
Why did Jesus agree to the man's request?

  :Book:

[Cardinal]

Discerning evil spirits Card, for me is not about devils and demons as much as it is about the motives of people, the personalities of people, the attitudes of people, to discern where "they" are coming from not so I can judge, but so that I not eat of their fruit.  For me, testing the spirits and listening for the sound is the same thing. 

Sound only comes from truth, anyting else is just a lot of noise.

:cloud9: For me it is when HE tells me what to command into the fire of the HG and I do it. Without Him telling me, I have no idea what something is, and sometimes what looks to be obvious in that area, isn't. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Cardinal]

However, I have two questions (anyone?):

Why did the pigs run over the cliff into the sea?
Why did Jesus agree to the man's request?

  :Book:

:cloud9: I'll share what I've seen on it.....the pigs are in the outer court realm where the worm dieth not, which means not of the spiritual priesthood, will eat anything, corn or husk, no discerning of spirits (nose = discerning, we should not eat food if it smells spoiled, ie. wormy, laced with death).

Note the day it happened, and the number associated with it, because it's going on now. It gets darker "out there", as those of the priesthood press in to receive more, because the darkness formed from the imaginations of men's hearts is being cast "out there". This is why the wheat and the tares are raised up together, because the rain falls on the just and the unjust equally. My  :2c: Blessings....

[peacemaker]

Because the darkness formed from within the imaginations of men's hearts is being "cast out."  :thumbsup:

Superstition is based on the fate of the swine, not in the man who was clothed again in his right mind.
However, in a way it helps us to remember, not to eat anything that is unclean; an aide memoire.

Trichinella spiralis is known as the "pork worm." And, they can remain infectious for years.

peacemaker