Does anyone know of some Universalist mystics, or visionaries

[WhiteWings]

All deserve hell but 'the good news' saves a few from that destiny.
Something like that.

[Aleax]

Never understood that myself.

Anyway, it is Hell accounts like Sundar Singh's that make any sense to me. He preached salvation through Cross so no "another gospel" being taught here IMO. It's his afterlife experiences that are a bit unorthodox but as I said, it is accounts like this that make any sense.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/sadhu-sundar-singh.htm

"After death the soul of every human being will enter the world of spirits, and every one, according to the stage of his spiritual growth, will dwell with spirits like in mind and in nature to himself, either in the darkness or in the light of glory."

Sounds like something a just and a loving God would do. I believe Cardinal once said she sees something like this in the Scriptures, even.

[WhiteWings]

"After death the soul of every human being will enter the world of spirits, and every one, according to the stage of his spiritual growth, will dwell with spirits like in mind and in nature to himself, either in the darkness or in the light of glory."

Various NDEs showed something similar.

[thinktank]

"After death the soul of every human being will enter the world of spirits, and every one, according to the stage of his spiritual growth, will dwell with spirits like in mind and in nature to himself, either in the darkness or in the light of glory."

Various NDEs showed something similar.

I've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel, rather they promote All roads lead to God mentality. To me NDE's are mostly experienced by non Christians and the enemy Satan somehow transforms himself into the angel of light and shows them these visions. On the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.  :2c:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: If you think about it, in THIS life, all roads don't lead to God, but after death when the soul is with like minded spirits, as it says, after a season of purifying fire, all roads DID lead to God. Never thought about it like that until you posted that.

Do you see what I mean? Since He saves all, and some have to be after death, then the main difference is, some have a reward (from seeking Him in THIS life) and some lost everything by fire, BUT their own soul. Blessings...

[WhiteWings]

I've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel,

Many NDEs are short. No lenghty stories like in those publised NDE books.

On the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.

There are also verified NDEs of  people seeing their own surgery etc. The describe things they can't know.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank!  :hithere:  Me again!  :laughing7:

I've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel, rather they promote All roads lead to God mentality. To me NDE's are mostly experienced by non Christians and the enemy Satan somehow transforms himself into the angel of light and shows them these visions.

What do you base this upon, T-tank?  Where is it stated that "satan" is able to "transform" itself?

And where is it said that a "being" named, ..."satan" ..."shows" others, ..."visions"?   :faint:

On the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.  :2c:

More UNBIBLICAL conjecture... "demonic trickery" is "apparent"?  :omg: 

Where is it mentioned in the WORD, that "demons" are about, ..."trickery"?  Or even that they are "about"... anything? (i.e. manifesting a sentient agenda)  :dontknow:

This is "RELIGIOUS" blab (unfounded conjecture) of the highest order, without basis in the WORD, rather, is firmly embedded within the HEARSAY of RELIGIOUS tradition, which is "about" rendering what ACTUALLY ...IS... IN the WORD, of none effect -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13  :sigh:

...willieH  :happy3:

[shawn]

Call me a skeptic but how does one know that a "mystics" message is from God?  If it lines up with the way we see scripture?  I believe there is a very good liklihood that none of us get any of this even close to it's entirety.  Personally, I would rather trust the word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.

[thinktank]

I've seen some of these NDE stories, there is huge inconsistency. When I look at them they don't promote Jesus or the gospel,

Many NDEs are short. No lenghty stories like in those publised NDE books.

On the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.

There are also verified NDEs of  people seeing their own surgery etc. The describe things they can't know.

I'm not denying NDE doesn't  happen. I think that the spirit within us is able to think and go anywhere in the universe, dreams etc, but it still attaches itself to the body via a spiritual cord, similar to the baby cord that attaches a baby to it's mother. Some witches who travel, say they have a cord attached to their body so they can go and travel, a bit like a spaceman who needs the cord attached to the spaceship in order to keep connected/alive.
I think the apostle Paul said, if there be no resurection then is not your faith in vain and those who are asleep perish.

[thinktank]

willieH: Hi T-tank!  :hithere:  Me again!  :laughing7:

Stop picking on me :sigh:

If you want to learn, that's fine. :thumbsup:

I find it a pleasure that you feel comfortable enough and to ask of me these questions.



What do you base this upon, T-tank?  Where is it stated that "satan" is able to "transform" itself?

And where is it said that a "being" named, ..."satan" ..."shows" others, ..."visions"?   :faint:


More UNBIBLICAL conjecture... "demonic trickery" is "apparent"?  :omg: 

Where is it mentioned in the WORD, that "demons" are about, ..."trickery"?  Or even that they are "about"... anything? (i.e. manifesting a sentient agenda)  :dontknow:

This is "RELIGIOUS" blab (unfounded conjecture) of the highest order, without basis in the WORD, rather, is firmly embedded within the HEARSAY of RELIGIOUS tradition, which is "about" rendering what ACTUALLY ...IS... IN the WORD, of none effect -- Matt 15:6 -- Mark 7:13  :sigh:

...willieH  :happy3:

Here is a man who has great miracle power able to deceive people. Draw your own conclusions, ask God to teach you, if you desire to know the truth of this matter, may the lord guide you in your quest.

The angel of light

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

2 Thessalonians 2:8,9

Maybe this is too strong to bare, so I'll show you these scriptures

2 Corinthians 2:11

Acts 16:16

A woman of "divination", sounds familiar? here is a definition from wickipedia



Divination (from Latin divinare "to foresee, to be inspired by a god"[2], related to divinus, divine) is the attempt to gain insight into a question or situation by way of a standardized process or ritual.[3] Diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency.


Who else did the power of God overcome?

Acts 13:8, 12

Here Paul is calling a sorcerer a child of the devil.


who does Jesus call the devil?


Here is a poweful spirit who overcomes and is able to tear off the clothes of these excorcists and also speak.

Acts 19:,13,16

But this must be some kind of disease??

Acts 19:11,12

healed disease AND THE ???

Devil an angel of light?
Who said the devil, looked like a monster? :dontknow:pop culture or the bible?


this monster is able to deceive learned men that he is good or god.


2 Corinthians 11:13-15

1 john 4:1,3

I have more to tell you concerning the devil, on my reply to your other thread, if you are able to bare it, so be prepared.

[Nathan]

Personally, the NDE issue isn't any different than someone seeing their loved ones in hell in a dream.  Not fully understanding how the human mind can conjure up images, conversations, events, experiences that have never taken place can turn into a stumbling block should we choose to give ourselves over to this type of thinking.

The one resounding thing that continues to surface and resonate in me when I read threads like this is that one, we don't think like God thinks so our conclusions are shaky at best.  And two, it's not about what images we see that we rely on as God speaking to us, but it's the "sound" from which the messages come. 

Satan appearing as an angel of light . . .how many times have you come across a person who sees themselves as a good and just person and yet you know what's in their closets?  My mind can decieve me that my message is of the light . . .angel merely means messenger.  We're all angels in that sense.  We are all messengers bringing forth a message of whatever the topics are.

Many of us all think we're right . . .yet "someone" has to be wrong because often times, our conversations are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum.  Satan simply means adversary.  My mind is always at emnity . . .my mind is an adversary to spiritual principles. 

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

My mind is not subject to the law of God.  What's that saying?  To me it's saying my mind not only does it not "want" to submit to the laws of God . . .which by the way are Loving God and Loving neighbors . .just the two is all that's necessary. . .But not only does my mind not 'want' to submit to spiritual principles, it "can't".  That's why he adds "neither indeed can be."

The mind inflates pride.  Pride will not ever admit that it's wrong.  In fact, pride will often become obsessed about splitting hairs on what's right or wrong so that it can boast about it's being right.  Even to the point to where the mind will decieve "me" into thinking that "this" is the unforgiving truth regardless of another's experience.

But on the other hand, the humble heart is the one bearing the true light.  Humility is God's greatest sign of his truth in a human being.  Humility tears down walls and opens doors in hearts of darkness.  Pride just reinforces those walls and closed doors and tries to defend it's reputation.

Satan as an angel of light . . .yup.  But it's not some invisible fallen angel with a long tail and a pitchfork.  It's my own imagination at work in me.  I've yet to come across any passage in Scripture that is speaking about a devil or evil spirit where that situation can't be identified as a subconscious misalignment of either control, or simple sanity.  The boy throwing himself into a fire, the guy running naked in a graveyard, the woman following Paul around . . .the authority in Christ and Paul was the Father manifesting spiritual authority over the mental state of each person and each situation.  Jesus could even talk "to" the sickness . . .we have the God-birthed power to bring life or death through the words we speak because this atmosphere we live in is created in such a way that our voice commands influence things our eyes can't see but it happens nonetheless.

Religion has turned these things into imps and demons.  When Jesus proclaimed he'd come to set the captive free, he wasn't talking about demonic prisons, he was talking about mindsets and mental strongholds.  Oh, I'll still lay my hands on a person and "call it out" but no longer do I believe I'm calling out a spirit, I believe I'm simply realigning the order of the spirit and soul within the persons body standing in front of me.

[peacemaker]

Excellent words, Nathan.   :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

A passage has been ringing in me since I posted this and so I want to throw it out to you for those who may be cringing at what I've shared concerning most of what the church has claimed to be demonic activity is more mental activity than demons possessing people.

Much of our directive when dealing with demons comes from Ephesians 6.
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms

How can I say that most of, if not all of what we're dealing with is an inward battle of the mind of man rather than an outward battle against invisible evil spirits when clearly here it's stating we're not dealing with flesh and blood?  For me, my mind is not flesh and it's not blood, it's carnality.  

Anything not godly is ungodly.  Anything ungodly is carnal.  It's flesh.  And my body of flesh is highly influenced by the constant pull of fleshly things.  "That's" the battle.  It doesn't have to be sexual or addictive such as drugs or booze.  Religion can be just as volital as any other carnal high.

But none of this explains the "powers" and "rulers" and "authorities in high places"  "Evil in the heavenly realm".  Okay, if you're one that would rather rely on what you read in Scripture than what the nature of God "sounds" in you, compare Ephesians 6 with 2 Corinthians 10.

3For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Uh oh, maybe I'm wrong?  This sounds very much like the same thing he's telling Ephesus.  And it is.  It's the same message.  But it's not about imps and demons and standing in the highest place of your city and praying against spiritual strong holds.  Look at where Paul takes this.

5We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ

This war Paul is talking about is about the battles of men's minds against each other.  This isn't about demons, it's about thoughts!  It's about verbal attacks against those who don't see doctrines as we see doctrines.  King James put it as the casting down of imaginations . . .

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

I like that reference also about "every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God . . ."  that is the abomination of desolation, that's what Daniel saw and Jesus referenced.  He saw the beast "standing" in the temple . .at the most high place.  What?  Know ye not that "you" are the temple?  That thing standing in your throne is your carnal mind and it's the abomination because that's your Eve feeding your Adam all over again.  She's always desiring after your spirit.  she's always wanting that throne, that control.  that's what she does, she craves power.

"That's" what we fight against.  Our weapons don't come through elevated ministries.  They come through prayer . .what's that?  That's communion with the Father.  Relationship births revelation, Revelation manifests Truth, and Truth sets us free.  From what?  Free from our minds taking control of our throne-room.

I think I may have just hi-jacked a thread . . .crap.

[peacemaker]

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses;
but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin.

He is the mighty counselor and prince of peace.

[micah7:9]

Yes I watched an ostrich once

[peacemaker]

Yes I watched an ostrich once

A large, two-toed, swift-footed flightless bird?   :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Call me a skeptic but how does one know that a "mystics" message is from God?  If it lines up with the way we see scripture?  I believe there is a very good liklihood that none of us get any of this even close to it's entirety.  Personally, I would rather trust the word of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life.

I never had a vision, NDE or HS experience but I wonder how you know there is a "HS presence". It may be as obvious to you as to the people who had a NDE. If NDEs of others can't be trusted how do you know your own experience can be trusted?

[WhiteWings]

On the other side of the coin it could also be their own imagination or beliefs being carried out, as their brain starts to shut down, so their senses are dulled and they become closer to the spirit world, a bit like recreational drugs etc that supress various brain activity, so that they become more attuned to the spiritual dimension, where all things are possible and demonic trickery is apparent.

There are also verified NDEs of  people seeing their own surgery etc. The describe things they can't know.

I'm not denying NDE doesn't  happen. I think that the spirit within us is able to think and go anywhere in the universe, dreams etc, but it still attaches itself to the body via a spiritual cord,

Not sure what you mean by a spiritual cord. NDE people where nearly dead. So not completely. Is that the cord you mean?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I agree with all that but....... my  :2c: I have to add that we are told to keep our heart/soul with all diligence, because out of it comes the issues of life. Those issues of life are the same as the woman/soul with an issue of blood. What she had was what comes out of a man's mouth (womb-mouth) that defiles him.

The blood of Adam that has the soulish life. That blood comes out of our mouth/soul/heart, and creates, and what it creates is our own wickedness that He reproves us with.

Imaginations are BIRTHED and take form (sin when it has CONCEIVED, bringeth forth death), and those forms have a physical presence, though invisible unless He opens your eyes to see them.

This is why He had them to weave cherubim (means imaginations) in the veil. The veil is what is formed by the eating of the shewbread in the light of the candlestick. He did this deliberately, to keep man out, for no man comes to the Father except the Father call him.

In so doing, He insured that NO DOCTRINE would be able to bring us into His presence, because they ALL have cherubims woven into them. These cherubim can only be revealed by Him. This is why Paul said, he knew nothing but Christ and Him crucified.

All has to go on the altar but that, as we cry out for mercy for ourselves and for our brethren (altar of incense) as the High Priest did on the day of atonement.

And so, these imaginations, these fiery darts of the wicked (the heart of man is continually wicked all the day long), they have a smell, can be felt, can change physical surroundings, have a taste (metallic = iron in blood, iron speaks of judgement), and if a full fledged demon, leave a "slimy" film on it's intended victim, for lack of a better word. Blessings.....

[coldwar]

:cloud9: If you think about it, in THIS life, all roads don't lead to God, but after death when the soul is with like minded spirits, as it says, after a season of purifying fire, all roads DID lead to God. Never thought about it like that until you posted that.

Do you see what I mean? Since He saves all, and some have to be after death, then the main difference is, some have a reward (from seeking Him in THIS life) and some lost everything by fire, BUT their own soul. Blessings...

This is good! Perhaps though, we could think of it as being one single straight and narrow road (Jesus) in THIS life, and a whole bunch of other twisty, round-about routes by which they who die eventually get there(?)

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: You know what? That "all roads lead to Jesus" that the New Ager's think, is a "backwards" confirmation in a way, OF UR. Because all lies are perverted truth, because Satan can't do anything but mimic something of God. In this case, UR. Blessings....

[peacemaker]

How many roads?

There are only two inflectional points of an apparent path.
Life and death, which changes the way we think or act.

peacemaker

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That's true, too.... :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Iv'e found a slight problem here though card. Ok so what you are saying is that when we dwell in temples of clay, we call upon the name of Jesus and we be saved, but those who spirits (people )who dwell within clay who don't confess Jesus as lord, die but then are to be purged.

Do you see the problem here?

Why can't they confess Christ when they are without the temple, then they would'nt have to be purged.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The spirit returns to the One who gave it, the soul is another matter, and that is what goes through the fire......my  :2c: blessings.....