Most of the arguments I have read over the past while have been very enlightening. UR seems to have a lot of verses to support it and that is indeed wonderful. I am a bit confused however. Of all the articles I have read I haven't found a one which seems to present the argument of free will as a consideration against the UR. This area seems to be glossed over in a lot the work and sometimes it is dismissed as a non-issue.
Does anyone have an article which takes seriously the notion that free will should be discussed as probably the most considerable stumbling block against UR?
The majority of proofs appear to be linguistic. Free will however is about the nature of God. If free will exists and God won't over-ride it, UR appears to be in trouble. If there is no free will then salvation is irrelevant. I don't mean to be rude, that is why I am asking for the articles.
Thanks.
I just posted something similar about this in another topic, so forgive the copy-pasta.
You have to digest that 'being saved' is absolutely in no way an act of human free will. The Bible states over and over that it is an act of God's will. Thusly, when called, nobody will be able to resist that. The involvement of 'free will' in our salvation is mostly an American construct, as we live in a country that values greatly this ideal.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."
Think about Paul. He was on the road to Damascus, getting ready to persecute (maybe even beat or kill) some Christians. But when he was exposed directly to the light of Jesus, his own will was completely broken. He spent the rest of his life preaching the Gospel and putting himself in harm's way for the glory of God.
Does it sound to you like Paul was ready to be saved? Of course not! But he was, wholly and completely.
Romans 11:32 - "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
Quote from: victoriousgospel on November 26, 2012, 10:40:15 PM
Romans 11:32 - "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
..each in his own turn. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. No man can confess Jesus as Lord but IN [literal translation] the Holy Spirit.
Vine, others will have good input, and I'll look for an article or two. Also, I'd like to ask eaglesway to specifically respond to your OP. PAGING JOHN, PAGING JOHN. :clapping:
Some people it takes a lot of verses to convince.Me, it only takes one if I know of no other verses that seem to contradict it.
"Jesus Christ, the Author and the Finisher, of our salvation"
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 26, 2012, 10:53:50 PM
Some people it takes a lot of verses to convince.Me, it only takes one if I know of no other verses that seem to contradict it.
"Jesus Christ, the Author and the Finisher, of our salvation"
One of my favorites! I for one have lean on that one.
Personally, quickly, I believe in limited will, or "man's/human will", which operates within the parameters God sets. I believe it operates in terms of making choices out of options that are set before us (we plan our steps, God directs our path). To me, the whole UR "argument" comes down to this - a version of "irresistable grace". In essence, we've never ever been totally, directly in God's presence before. To do so is to physically no longer be able to live - not "survive" it. I believe when every knee bows and every tongue confesses, we will all have placed in God's direct Presence. Our God is a consuming fire, and "God IS love". So when faced with His all-consuming fire of Love, even the most stubborn of human wills will be overwhelmed with all He IS, and "melt" at His feet - GLADLY, JOYFULLY accepting Who He is once fully revealed.
"That's the power of love".
vg, i also agree God chooses and saves - not our effort. Although my personal understanding is as stated above, if I had to answer the question "does man have a free will", I'd have to answer no - and then go into the above explanation :laugh: of how I believe it works.
J. Preston Eby has a good article on it here;
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html&sa=U&ei=BOCzUIDzDIKPmQW3s4CgCg&ved=0CAkQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNF6z_o8SwHzUQnbZjCmXknzOKfNDg
God is sovereign. :thumbsup:
Free or not-so-free will is a topic we have difficulty getting our carnal, temporal minds around. That said, I see human will as a little "wiggle room" God gives us, but the outcome is pre-known to Him. He is both all-powerful and knows the end from the beginning - we do not - and that is the crux of the matter.
@ Jabcat - THAT was the article I was trying to find, but was having no luck! Thanks!
:thumbsup: I agree, it's hard to totally absorb/comprehend.
:thumbsup: on the article.
I liked the article.
I am then left with the latter part of the original thought. Now that the notion of free will has gone the way of the eight track, why do we need an elaborate process by which to come to God? If the end is inevitable why do we need the play? What would be the difference between this (which seems to be in one way Calvin on steroids), and the notion of inchallah.
All the discussion would simply boil down to a script: same words, different actors, with God deciding who spoke which lines. Why is there a concern that people understand the process if the process will eventually get everyone anyway?
Wouldn't it be eat, drink, and be merry, for eventually we all get there irrespective of what we do?
Glad you enjoyed the article. :thumbsup:
I would answer it simply like this; God has a plan to bring all to Him. There is much debate over some of the intricacies of the process, or even why God chose to do it the way He has at all. Questions like why didn't He just make all holy to begin with? Why is mankind here to begin with, whether one believes in ET or UR? These seem to be "universal" questions (pardon the pun :). The closest I've found (and I'm still searching) is that God has given mankind an experience of evil so we can learn from it - i.e., through the process, we will learn to appreciate His goodness, mercy, and glory, and then fully be able to appreciate being in His presence - which will add to our joy. To me, there is some of that "I see an outline, but I don't know all the details", so there's some "trusting God and walking humbly before Him" involved.
If one can "get through" the first part of it, then for the last part of your observations; I understand and believe it like this. God brings the elect/pre-destined to Him in this lifetime. They are the ecclesia, set aside for a purpose - including being "priests and kings" reigning with Him in the next age. As the gates to the city are open night and day, the ecclesia is somehow (according to that aforementioned plan) instrumental in bringing the rest in. Rev. 21 - "the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it". So, back to the basics of that last line, "eat, drink, be merry".. Remember Saul/Paul. He was on his "merry" way, doing his thing. Slandering and murdering. But when the Holy Spirit brings new birth, what happens? That person becomes what, and what passes away? New creature, old things! So God places His Spirit in a believer, which "seals them unto the day of redemption", they are "His workmanship, predestined unto good works", and "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it"! Hallelujah! So that person, spiritually reborn, made a new creature, innately then loves His Master and Father, and the desire to please Him has been placed in his heart. Our heart is turned toward home - by the Father, sealed by the Spirit, ensured by His grace. Eating, drinking, and being merry to the exclusion of Master and Father, is no longer really a viable option. The Spirit has taken up residence!
I hope that makes sense. Blessings.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 26, 2012, 10:53:50 PM
Some people it takes a lot of verses to convince.Me, it only takes one if I know of no other verses that seem to contradict it.
"Jesus Christ, the Author and the Finisher, of our salvation"
The fact that Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith by no means fully answers the issue of free will, and IMO the discussion is much broader than any one verse can accomodate
To deal with the seeming disparity between certain verses that speak of the sovereignty of God versus other verses(I do so love "versus verses" and "paradoxical paradigms":o) that indicate that man has a will of His own and the he must "yield" it to God- one has to step back into a wider perspective.
IMO, The problem with this discussion (man's will vs God's will) is the "narrowness" of vision from both sides of it.
My view MUST include ALL of the verses about GOD'S WILL and MAN'S WILL(The code by which I pursue the truth through topical hermeneutics and exegesis of the scriptures).
The fact that God is ultimately sovereign is not in question.
What is in question is how many proponents of God's sovereignty get uncomfortable with certain verses, even as certain proponents of free will, or man's will get uncomfortable with others. Somehow, before we settle so comfortably into "the know"- we have to see ALL the verses represented within our overall paradigm.
For instance, Jesus is the author of our faith, but what does that mean? We were begotten by the will of God yet we are told, "Today if you here His voice harden not your hearts".....Why? At what point do we stop contradicting one another when someone says "Choose you this day whom you will serve" or "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you". Jesus learned
obedience through the things He sufferred- that is THE FAITH HE AUTHORED. What are we learning? How is He finishing our faith? As clay upon the wheel He is teaching us, "Nevertheless not my will but thine be done". He is, IMO, finishing us by teaching us how to agree with the Father in the exercise of the will which we have been given so that we will be "no more like children" but grow into mature sons.
We are in a "bubble in eternity" called time, or, the ages. Within the bubble, we are exhorted, we are called to choose, WE AND THE UNBELIEVERS UNTO WHOM WE SPEAK THE GOSPEL are continually exhorted to exercise our wills in certain ways AND BE REWARDED OR SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES- and, theses consequences are very real so..........
How do we reconcile these seemingly
paradoxical paradigms :o).
Well, one thing I can ASSURE OF is that the issue is never as simple as the proponents of the polar extremes seem to make it. For every verse you can quote to me about the ultimate sovereignty of God I can quote you one about the IMMEDIATE ACCOUNTABILITY OF MAN. There will always be someone standing for this aspect of the word BECAUSE IT IS CLEARLY THERE.
My point is not to promote one view or the other, but to FIND THE SEAM, THE INTEGRATION POINT, THE HIGHER PERSPECTIVE that incorporates ALL OF THE SCRIPTURES.
Fortunately you do not have to believe one way or the other to believe in UR. I believe free will IS GIVEN BY GOD TO ALL HIS CREATION and He is winning back His whole creation THROUGH LOVE to a point where EVERY WILL IS YIELDED because of a REVELATION OF THE HIGHER WAY OF SACRIFICIAL LOVE. I present UR NOT MERELY as a result of the empirical will of God but rather as the INEVITABLE RESULT OF THE SUPERIORITY OF LOVE. It is after all love that drives YHWH's empirical will, because God is love. Love is the HIGHEST MANIFESTATION OF HIS WILL. FREEDOM IS THE HIGHEST AND FINAL GIFT OF LOVE. My answer to someone who does not see the sovereignty of God as I do but is from the free will side of the aisle is "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me". My answer to someone the sovereignty side of the aisle is that God exercises His sovereignty through the INEVITABLE VICTORY of love given freely(freely you have received freely give)- this is how we learn and this is how He wins us over and all of we learn through trial and temptation lead us there (freely yielded to God's will because of love).
I am in no way ever offended by anyone who sees it differently from me, but I believe the balance is in the middle somewhere and UP HIGHER and that God's sovereign will is expressing itself through FREEDOM- "For freedom Christ has set you free"....."You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free"..... and "the whole creation groans in anticipation that it will be set free into the "glorious liberty of the children of God".
Many others will come to UR with a similar perspective to my own. I do not come from a preterist background, I was born into the faith as pentecostal/charismatic Christian. I would not like to see the message of UR saddled with the additional and (IMO) unnecessary weight of the sovereign/free will debate- but rather put forth the answer that assuages both views, which is that God's love is great enough to win over every sentient being in a free will universe as well as a universe where God is forcing all things to a point of subjection to Himself. Surely if, God in His very nature, if the height and breadth and depth of His I Am That I Am- IS LOVE, then it is love that is the superior working agent and is the root of His power to "make all things work together according to the counsel of His will."
See? a question everybody can have an opinion different and we can all be right!
"Choose this day whom you will serve" is a great indicator of free will.
But the choice is not offered to everyone.
"God hardened Pharoah's heart"
Paul as Saul,thought (as others have) that they were serving and had chosen God. Muslims are a perfect example.
Cult leaders and their followers think they are serving God
And of course, the people that never heard the good news and won't hear it in their lifetime.
After death, those that have died not having chosen God, will ALL (of their own free will) choose God.
That seems to be a contradiction but free or not, our will is not stronger than the love of God and he will be irrestible,
making an offer that can't or won't be refused.
Does even God have free will? yes and no. we say God can do anything, but he cannot lie, he cannot sin, and he cannot not love, for that his nature and essence.
Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2012, 05:27:36 AM
The closest I've found (and I'm still searching) is that God has given mankind an experience of evil so we can learn from it - i.e., through the process, we will learn to appreciate His goodness, mercy, and glory, and then fully be able to appreciate being in His presence - which will add to our joy.
This is intriguing. It brings up C.S. Lewis' notion that the universe is more classroom than place for hedonistic expression. Do you have any literature available about this idea? I love the thought that the universe is not simply a randomly created thing, but that God made it not only with purpose, but for a purpose. Thanks Jabcat, if you are of a mind, could you flesh out that idea.
Thanks
Quote from: eaglesway on November 27, 2012, 07:33:26 AM
Fortunately you do not have to believe one way or the other to believe in UR.... I present UR NOT MERELY as a result of the empirical will of God but rather as the INEVITABLE RESULT OF THE SUPERIORITY OF LOVE.
Don't these two statments contradict one another?
Like everything with free will... Yes and No.
After we die, when God reveals his glory, his plan, his love, his power, his omniscience...etc.
Regardless of the "free will" to refuse, God has basically "stacked the deck" in that a person will be unable to refuse.
Hi All,
I think God gave man the idea that he has a free will, but does he? In my opinion, no, he does not. It is just another thing that God is using to teach us with.
It says "choose this day whom you will serve" but then it says God has blinded their eyes and closed their ears so they could not choose. Of course we choose but why and how do we choose is the next question?
Just like in (Phil. 2:12) paul says "work out your own salvation" then the next verse says "For it is God which worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure". So how are you going to work out your own salvation if it is God doing it all?
You know how sometimes you allow your children to think they are thinking and choosing for themselves when actually it is you that has set up the events so that they will choose or do exactly what you want them to. It makes them feel good thinking they are in control of things when really they are not. I guess it is one way that God makes us feel good about our selves. It is an ego trip and this fuels it. Another way of teaching us that we are not in control.
Just my :2c:
CHB
Here's my :2c: (Which has just changed on the subject in the last 2 hours) Man has free will in many things. Man does not have free will concerning his salvation. Here's why IMO:
God gives salvation as a free gift without any conditions or qualifications, and it is His will that determines eternal life, not the will of the sinner. His eternal counsel and choice is the basis for eternal life.
In order for salvation to be by grace, man cannot have any role in it; or grace would no longer be grace, and man would put God in a position of debt. Man's will and efforts are totally excluded.
God plainly denies man's will or efforts in salvation (John 1:13; Rom 9:16). These two texts are enough for those who tremble at God's word. They are plain, powerful, and conclusive. Yet the first is generally ignored when using John 1:12, and the second seems to be overlooked.
God also denies man's works in his own salvation (Rom 4:6; 9:11; Eph 2:9; II Tim 1:9; Tit 3:5). If man's works were included, God would be in debt to man; and He is not (Rom 4:4). If they were included, man would have reason to boast; but God does not allow it (Eph 2:9). If they were included, grace would no longer mean grace, for grace excludes works (Rom 11:6).
God saves men while they are dead in sins, not while they are willing or working (Rom 5:6-10; Eph 2:1- 5). He saves them while they are enemies, not while they are friends seeking Him. Salvation is a free gift, so God is never repaying man (Rom 5:18; 6:23; 4:4; 11:35).
Only God's will is active in the giving of eternal life (John 3:8; 5:21; Eph 1:5; Rom 9:15; James 1:18; Heb 10:9-10). God's glorious will is altogether sovereign, and man can no more direct it than he can direct the wind. To steal this prerogative from God and give it to man is blasphemy. God's mercy and predestinating purpose are based in His Own will, not in the will of man. His will and choice and decision are the basis for salvation, not that of sinners.
Even faith is considered a work, part of the law, and a commandment (John 6:28-29; Matt 23:23; I John 3:23). And eternal life is not by works, the law, or commandments (Tit 3:5; Gal 2:21; 5:4; Rom 3:19). The only faith Scripture allows is faith trusting the God Who justifies the ungodly, which is very different from believing God justifies the faithful (Rom 4:5). Faith is only an evidence of eternal life, not a condition or means for it.
For those who believe eternal life is conditioned upon man's faith, Didn't God give them the faith before they had any?
Quote from: VineBranch on November 27, 2012, 05:06:47 PM
I love the thought that the universe is not simply a randomly created thing, but that God made it not only with purpose, but for a purpose.
Try this site, as I mentioned in another thread: http://www.biblemaths.com/
On my way.
As one Bab 5 fan to another, thanks.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 27, 2012, 03:30:20 PM
That seems to be a contradiction but free or not, our will is not stronger than the love of God and he will be irrestible,
making an offer that can't or won't be refused.
Does even God have free will? yes and no. we say God can do anything, but he cannot lie, he cannot sin, and he cannot not love, for that his nature and essence.
That's one of the reasons I don't like the term "free will". IMO, if a will is influenced at all, it's not free. That's why I prefer "man's will" and "God's will". IMO, that can take in all the intricacies, i.e., man's requirement by God to make choices by which to learn and grow, but all within parameters and limits He sets and the controls He chooses to initiate - according to
His will. And in the end, man's will submits to God's supreme and perfect will, in the direct Presence of irresistable Love and grace. My :2c:
Quote from: VineBranch on November 27, 2012, 05:06:47 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2012, 05:27:36 AM
The closest I've found (and I'm still searching) is that God has given mankind an experience of evil so we can learn from it - i.e., through the process, we will learn to appreciate His goodness, mercy, and glory, and then fully be able to appreciate being in His presence - which will add to our joy.
This is intriguing. It brings up C.S. Lewis' notion that the universe is more classroom than place for hedonistic expression. Do you have any literature available about this idea? I love the thought that the universe is not simply a randomly created thing, but that God made it not only with purpose, but for a purpose. Thanks Jabcat, if you are of a mind, could you flesh out that idea.
Thanks
Hi vine. As I wrote this, the little book by Thomas J. Kissinger crossed my mind. It's linked here;
http://abidinghopefellowship.org/teachings/nobleberean.pdf
It's an easy read, can be skimmed for relevant content, and I THINK most of what pertains directly to this subject is close to the front - although there's much more good stuff throughout. I'll think about this subject through the next few hours Lord willing, and see what I can come up with. Good thought on C.S. Lewis, thanks. I'll admit - I have a lot of room to grow on this subject, I struggle with it a lot re: God's will, plan, purpose through this life - even though God has blessed me and given me grace and mercy I don't deserve. My bad..:( Maybe some things discussed here will help me too.
I'm such a cheapskate, discussing free will
You had me at "free" :laugh:
...and when I heard salvation was the FREE gift of God... :dsunny:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 27, 2012, 10:35:06 PM
I'm such a cheapskate, discussing free will
You had me at "free" :laugh:
...and when I heard salvation was the FREE gift of God... :dsunny:
:) Good line.
Funny, I was thinking about salvation being the free gift, and how that relates to "free" will. I thought of works as being related to salvation as some people claim. If somebody gives me a gift and says it's free, and after I've received they say, "oh, but wait a minute. You're going to need to pay me a dollar every month for the rest of your life". Then that gift wasn't free. Now...on the other hand, if the free gift is given, I might be so grateful for it, and the love of the gift has made a change a change in my heart, thoughts, and feelings, I may gladly give a dollar a month, joyfully. Because I was changed by the gift and the love of it overwhelmed me.
So I was thinking some more about "free will". I've thought of this scenario often. I honestly don't believe I can choose to not be a child of God today. I can't say, "well, I'm no longer going to be spiritually reborn/saved. I'm going to just do what I want and be a child of the devil." I think we tease ourselves by saying we can. If we've been truly spiritually reborn, we're sealed, influenced, led, constrained by the Holy Spirit. I often fail. My stubborn human will temporarily gets in the way - OFTEN. But I can no longer be content with it and go on my merry way, "freely". I'm convicted, drawn back, encouraged to confess and repent and seek His way again, yielding to His will. I can't walk next door and murder my neighbor today. The Holy Spirit constrains me. I guess it's possible I could get in such a bad way, living in rebellion, fighting with the Lord, trying to force my own will (man's will) that He could
temporarily [because He would purge me of it as
some point] "release me" to go do that somehow. But just right now? By the grace and mercy of God He won't let me go do that (even if I wanted to - I DON"T! :). He works with my attitudes, thoughts, desires, teaching me what's right and wrong, molding me into His will. And in the end, even if still resisting Him in many ways, my stubborn will will melt before His
anyway. IMO, that's not a "free will". I hope that makes some sense. I know it's a hard subject, with what I believe is much misinformation influencing our thinking on it. :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 27, 2012, 10:35:06 PM
You had me at "free" :laugh:
Did you know the human head weighs 8 pounds? :LH:
Don't you think one of the big "problems" is, we're trying to discuss something infinite and totally of Holy origin, with our feeble little humans minds and veiled vision? God and His ways are SO much bigger and better than we can truly comprehend?
I'm reminded of this song;
I made You promises a thousand times
I tried to hear from Heaven
But I talked the whole time
I think I made You too small
I never feared You at all, no
If You touched my face would I know You
Looked into my eyes could I behold You
What do I know of You
Who spoke me into motion
Where have I even stood
But the shore along Your ocean
Are You fire, are You fury
Are You sacred, are You beautiful
What do I know, what do I know of Holy
I guess I thought that I had figured You out
I knew all the stories and I learned to talk about
How You were mighty to save
Those were only empty words on a page
Then I caught a glimpse of who You might be
The slightest hint of You brought me down to my knees
What do I know of You
Who spoke me into motion
Where have I even stood
But the shore along Your ocean
Are You fire, are You fury
Are You sacred, are You beautiful
So what do I know, what do I know of Holy
What do I know of Holy
What do I know of wounds that will heal my shame
And a God who gave life it's name
What do I know of Holy
Of the One who the angels praise
All creation knows Your name
On earth and heaven above
What do I know of this love
What do I know of You
Who spoke me into motion
Where have I even stood
But the shore along Your ocean
Are You fire, are You fury
Are You sacred, are You beautiful
What do I know of Holy
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDkQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DN6J5TzSE_18&ei=6yy1UN-nG8W02wWVpYGICw&usg=AFQjCNEULoNzKRLwtVHmRu3p1GcxfGAxAA&sig2=beoBqDT5vEyQtB-Gdn0mzA
Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2012, 10:56:35 PM
I honestly don't believe I can choose to not be a child of God today.
I don't believe I can either. Satan however, was with God and he chose to leave Him. God seems to have respected that decision.
Quote from: VineBranch on November 27, 2012, 11:59:11 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2012, 10:56:35 PM
I honestly don't believe I can choose to not be a child of God today.
I don't believe I can either. Satan however, was with God and he chose to leave Him. God seems to have respected that decision.
I certainly believe God requires and SOMETIMES respects our choices. I see it like this - God always has a plan in teaching us through those choices. In our case as humans, I believe those choices are influenced - some more than others, depending on His will and specific plan for each individual. As far as satan, I believe God had an overall HUGE plan for that, including how we are dealt with, learn, and are led through our lives and through the centuries, etc.. (until it's concluded in His being All in All I Cor. 15:28). So He certainly allowed or "respected" that. I believe satan's one tool used to achieve God's purposes. That whole satan thing is another HUGE discussion :o :) Blessings.
A couple of things..
I think God can give us lots of freedom up to a point in time when it is necessary for whatever reason that he pulls in the reigns. So we see Moses who was even a murderer, and on the lam when God pulls in his reigns at 80 years old. Up to that point, although I believe God was protecting and guiding Moses with a very loose hand, Moses was pretty much free to choose his own way.
Another thing, when we speak of 'works,' again, we are free to do our own 'works' up to the point when it is time for God to set us on the path of the works for which we were created. And, oddly enough, one is never freer than when doing the very thing for which he was created, whether it be weaving baskets or leading the Israelites out of captivity.
10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do
--Eph 2:10
Vinebranch said, "Satan however, was with God and he chose to leave Him."
Yet, God planned to use Satan all along for his purposes. Satan may have thought that was his free will and maybe it was, but being omniscient God was ready to use Satan as he saw fit while all along Satan thought he was acting independently.
Like with Job. :dontknow:
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 12:45:16 AM
Up to that point, although I believe God was protecting and guiding Moses with a very loose hand, Moses was pretty much free to choose his own way.
Hey, you weighed in on this! :gimmefive: (the bolded) How truly "free" is that? :wink2: Again, I think we're talking about things so much bigger than us that our limited, corrupted language cannot even rightly express it. But I believe God was influencing, limiting, providing the options from which Moses had to choose. :dontknow: Perhaps the point of God "reigning him in" was then the culmination of all those years that had God's hand on them? I truly don't know, is there specific scriptural evidence that would show God "leaving Moses alone" vs. being involved in his life through the years - even though he made many "bad" choices, was God totally removed, disinterested, or still had walls set up which Moses bumped into, then had to decide the next way to go?
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 12:45:16 AM
Another thing, when we speak of 'works,' again, we are free to do our own 'works' up to the point when it is time for God to set us on the path of the works for which we were created. And, oddly enough, one is never freer than when doing the very thing for which he was created, whether it be weaving baskets or leading the Israelites out of captivity.
By the first part, do you mean free to live in sin until one is spiritually reborn? Then the Holy Spirit is at work, shaping and guiding, so
then it's not as free? I think that's an interesting thought, and I
think I agree with that to a large extent. But then I think of this - is the child born in the Sudanese desert as "free" as the child born into a Christian home? Or do both situations have God's hand on them somehow, again, limiting, setting parameters within which they can operate, placing different choices and opportunities before them. That's not just a matter of "chance" is it? :Chinscratch:
On the second part ("created for good works"), I don't know. Who the Son makes free is free indeed..but does that mean totally free of any of His influence ("free will"), or free from the bondage of sin, which makes one "free" to
enjoy the Father's influence, will, and redemption? Able to rejoice in His presence rather than run from it?
At some point, I promise, I'll back out of this for awhile. :laugh2: Cause I think we could discuss a thousand different intricacies of what it all means and never arrive at the ultimate point. Also, sometimes I have to stop thinking about it, cause I can't completely figure it out and it makes my 8 lb. head swim. I just sort of go with this for my own simple mind..
Quote from: jabcat on November 27, 2012, 10:00:38 PM
IMO, if a will is influenced at all, it's not free... "man's will" and "God's will"... can take in all the intricacies, i.e., man's requirement by God to make choices by which to learn and grow, but all within parameters and limits He sets and the controls He chooses to initiate - according to His will. And in the end, man's will submits to God's supreme and perfect will, in the direct Presence of irresistable Love and grace.
Blessings friend.
Quote from: CHB on November 27, 2012, 06:39:30 PM
Hi All,
I think God gave man the idea that he has a free will, but does he? In my opinion, no, he does not. It is just another thing that God is using to teach us with.
It says "choose this day whom you will serve" but then it says God has blinded their eyes and closed their ears so they could not choose. Of course we choose but why and how do we choose is the next question?
Just like in (Phil. 2:12) paul says "work out your own salvation" then the next verse says "For it is God which worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure". So how are you going to work out your own salvation if it is God doing it all?
You know how sometimes you allow your children to think they are thinking and choosing for themselves when actually it is you that has set up the events so that they will choose or do exactly what you want them to. It makes them feel good thinking they are in control of things when really they are not. I guess it is one way that God makes us feel good about our selves. It is an ego trip and this fuels it. Another way of teaching us that we are not in control.
Just my :2c:
CHB
Worth every penny! :dsunny:
Quote from: JabHey, you weighed in on this! (the bolded) How truly "free" is that? Again, I think we're talking about things so much bigger than us that our limited, corrupted language cannot even rightly express it. But I believe God was influencing, limiting, providing the options from which Moses had to choose. Perhaps the point of God "reigning him in" was then the culmination of all those years that had God's hand on them? I truly don't know, is there specific scriptural evidence that would show God "leaving Moses alone" vs. being involved in his life through the years - even though he made many "bad" choices, was God totally removed, disinterested, or still had walls set up which Moses bumped into, then had to decide the next way to go?
You ask, how truly free is that, referring to God guiding and protecting Moses with a loose hand. I can only relate to my own life, when I did things that made my guardian angels tear their hair out, and yet I was able to recover and even live through them. You know, fools rush in...and all that. Moses did his share of such things--committing murder at age 40, he could have easily ended up in jail or even dead--so that is all I meant by "God guiding and protecting." God had bigger plans for Moses than jail or dead. I also doubt you would want to argue that God caused Moses to commit murder.
I guess one could argue the point, but what I meant was that Moses had 80 years to pick his own path until God called to him from the burning bush and told him exactly how he was going to be spending his time for the next 40 years. So, in our sense of the word, Moses was no longer 'free' after that, he no longer belonged to himself.
When God finally decided to step in, Moses had no doubt in his mind what his mission was going forward.
QuoteBy the first part, do you mean free to live in sin until one is spiritually reborn? Then the Holy Spirit is at work, shaping and guiding, so then it's not as free? I think that's an interesting thought, and I think I agree with that to a large extent. But then I think of this - is the child born in the Sudanese desert as "free" as the child born into a Christian home? Or do both situations have God's hand on them somehow, again, limiting, setting parameters within which they can operate, placing different choices and opportunities before them. That's not just a matter of "chance" is it?
Yes, even live in sin if that is your choice. A lot of born again Christians will admit that they started out leading the most sinful of lives. What else are we to do when there are no absolutes of right and wrong, even the best of us? And, many will say that they learned the hard way why God prohibits the things that he does. It is to make our lives easier not harder. It is to keep us safe and happy and long lived. But, try telling that to a teenager! Sometimes we have to go astray first to learn what we need to learn, and I believe God gives us the freedom to do that.
No, I don't think there is chance involved in where we are born. But, I do think that if we are one of his sheep, he will come for us when the time is right no matter what the circumstances.
Sons are 'appointed,' and appointments include timing.
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
So, in our sense of the word, Moses was no longer 'free' after that, he no longer belonged to himself.
When God finally decided to step in, Moses had no doubt in his mind what his mission was going forward.
I kinda think he did ...
Moses balked and said his speech wasn't up to the task. He said God could sent Aaron, and God sent Aaron with him. So, was that then Moses exercising his will? Scripture never said God wanted Aaron, yet lo and behold, because Moses broached the subject, Aaron went along. If God wanted Aaron along from the start Moses wasn't indeed "'free' after that...".
Quote from: VineBranch on November 28, 2012, 04:36:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
So, in our sense of the word, Moses was no longer 'free' after that, he no longer belonged to himself.
When God finally decided to step in, Moses had no doubt in his mind what his mission was going forward.
I kinda think he did ...
Moses balked and said his speech wasn't up to the task. He said God could sent Aaron, and God sent Aaron with him. So, was that then Moses exercising his will? Scripture never said God wanted Aaron, yet lo and behold, because Moses broached the subject, Aaron went along. If God wanted Aaron along from the start Moses wasn't indeed "'free' after that...".
I think we see that a lot when God finally steps into lives and takes direct control.
You want me to do what? :mshock:
That's a very precious exchange between God and Moses at the beginning with Moses coming up with all the reasons why he can't do it and God coming up with all the reasons why he can do it.
We see the same thing with Gideon and others.
But, notice, regarding Moses and Aaron: Aaron is a representative of the Jewish priesthood, and encumbered by ritual and duty and distance from God, whereas Moses is a representative of the Melchizedek priesthood, and free to talk to God face to face.
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 04:43:28 AM
But, notice, regarding Moses and Aaron: Aaron is a representative of the Jewish priesthood, and encumbered by ritual and duty and distance from God, whereas Moses is a representative of the Melchizedek priesthood, and free to talk to God face to face.
Hunh?
I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
--John 21:18
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 06:42:19 AM
I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go."
--John 21:18
I love that verse :o)
If I could just interject..I personally believe we do have will, and it often fights against God..I just don't think we're in control nearly as much as we'd like to think, and that God's unseen hand is often influencing, guiding, "in the way" so we bump into it and have to choose another direction, pulling us back from the precipice, etc, etc.. I also believe something strongly about the beginning and the ending..in the beginning, God creates us to be what we are and where we are (such as the "created for good works" scripture. Then in the end, His will wins ("love wins") because even if we have THE most stubborn will imaginable, "God works all things according to the counsel of His will", "He came to seek and save that which was lost", "the Father has given all things over into My hands", "..the living God, who WILL have all men be saved".
Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer.We all know that a horse must be broken, that is, its will must be broken before it is of any practical use to man. God put that will in the horse, but it must be broken and made to conform to the will of man. Just as surely did God put the will in man, BUT IT MUST BE BROKEN and we will benefit by the very process of breaking. Man may do a lot of crying and wailing, but when he is broken to HIS will, what a wonderful condition it is. God may take man over some rough places, even through the lake of fire and brimstone, but the love of God will break every man to His will.If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around.
Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God." J. Preston Eby
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 27, 2012, 03:30:20 PM
See? a question everybody can have an opinion different and we can all be right!
"Choose this day whom you will serve" is a great indicator of free will.
But the choice is not offered to everyone.
"God hardened Pharoah's heart"
Paul as Saul,thought (as others have) that they were serving and had chosen God. Muslims are a perfect example.
Cult leaders and their followers think they are serving God
And of course, the people that never heard the good news and won't hear it in their lifetime.
After death, those that have died not having chosen God, will ALL (of their own free will) choose God.
That seems to be a contradiction but free or not, our will is not stronger than the love of God and he will be irrestible,
making an offer that can't or won't be refused.
Does even God have free will? yes and no. we say God can do anything, but he cannot lie, he cannot sin, and he cannot not love, for that his nature and essence.
Amen, that is why salvation is a change of nature, a new creation, old things pass away, BEHOLD, ALL THINGS BECOME NEW.
To VineBranch. Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity the love of an All Powerful and All Loving God who can demostrate that love to them in an endless array of ways? If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who was the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? And that's exactly what the Bible says He will do---"And I if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Him and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all peoples to Himself through His Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross, just as He did for you and me. Blessings to you.
I'm afraid Molly your argument may too sophisticated for me. What does a 'priesthood' (?) have to do with a statement of aging, have to do with free agency.
I don't follow. Do these things relate to LDS doctrine? Sorry, I mean no offence, just really confused.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on November 28, 2012, 07:31:33 AM
Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity the love of an All Powerful and All Loving God who can demostrate that love to them in an endless array of ways? If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who was the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? And that's exactly what the Bible says He will do---"And I if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Him and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all peoples to Himself through His Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross, just as He did for you and me. Blessings to you.
I believe that within God's ultimate sovereignty He has imposed upon man a stewardship that has consequences and involves the transformation of His mind , will, heart and emotions. Where there is no will there can be no stewardship. I have never argued with sovereignty of God - I just argue with people who say that man has no will, because they always say it with philosophy, because the scriptures do not uphold that statement. A cursory word study of the words "freedom" and "yield" and "obey" will show that there the end of God's sovereign will will be that every creature is completely free- and totally immersed in the love of God. That is "the glorious freedom of the children of God".
Once you are set free from futility you are free. Before you are free you are futile. Where there is love there is no law. When God is all in all there is no rule power or authority, it is all abolished- every soul completely free. Love is like that :o)
To rjohnson741. Hi, how are you? Thanks for the personal note.
No, I am not saying God is incapable of doing anything. I am merely saying that if something is a foregone conclusion then the notion of free will is illusionary. If it is illusionary, then anything specifically required to fulfill something as a means to an end is merely an arbitrary process. If the end result cannot be avoided, then what use is a middle? It is just preference not necessity. Why would we get all worked up over spreading the Gospel if the end is achieved regardless of whether the Gospel is spread or not.
Furthermore, what becomes of meaning? What becomes of significance? What is the difference then between us and the materialists who insist all is chemical? What becomes of love if it is merely a response to preprogrammed stimuli: can it even be called real?
Quote from: VineBranch on November 28, 2012, 07:35:45 AM
I'm afraid Molly your argument may too sophisticated for me. What does a 'priesthood' (?) have to do with a statement of aging, have to do with free agency.
I don't follow. Do these things relate to LDS doctrine? Sorry, I mean no offence, just really confused.
I mentioned that about Aaron and Moses because I thought you might understand. But, you didn't so I am at a loss to explain it easily. Let's just say although it might have looked as though Moses was less free once God came into his life directly, and on some level that might be argued, he was in fact more free, as would anyone be in the position of talking to his Creator face to face as a friend.
The statement on aging, as you put it, is really a statement on spiritual maturity.
LDS? no.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 28, 2012, 07:41:26 AM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on November 28, 2012, 07:31:33 AM
Are you saying the self will of man can resist and reject for all eternity the love of an All Powerful and All Loving God who can demostrate that love to them in an endless array of ways? If God can draw Saul of Tarsus, who was the chief of sinners(1Timothy 1:15), and you and me to Himself, why do you believe God can't draw all men to Himself? And that's exactly what the Bible says He will do---"And I if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME" John 12:32. Did God force you or me to come to Him? Of course not. Yet God still drew us to Him and we willingly came to Him. Why do you believe God can't do that for everyone? You are underestimating the power of the blood of Christ. God will draw all peoples to Himself through His Love and Grace expressed in the power of the Cross, just as He did for you and me. Blessings to you.
I believe that within God's ultimate sovereignty He has imposed upon man a stewardship that has consequences and involves the transformation of His mind , will, heart and emotions. Where there is no will there can be no stewardship. I have never argued with sovereignty of God - I just argue with people who say that man has no will, because they always say it with philosophy, because the scriptures do not uphold that statement. A cursory word study of the words "freedom" and "yield" and "obey" will show that there the end of God's sovereign will will be that every creature is completely free- and totally immersed in the love of God. That is "the glorious freedom of the children of God".
Once you are set free from futility you are free. Before you are free you are futile. Where there is love there is no law. When God is all in all there is no rule power or authority, it is all abolished- every soul completely free. Love is like that :o)
Hi EaglesWay. I agree with your previous comment that salvation is a change of nature, a new creation, old things pass away. Behold I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW. I agree 100% percent with that comment. My previous post was to VineBranch. Sorry for the confusion. Blessings to you.
Yea, I got that after :o) Grace and peace, John
Quote from: jabcat on November 28, 2012, 01:02:23 AM
On the second part ("created for good works"), I don't know. Who the Son makes free is free indeed..but does that mean totally free of any of His influence ("free will")? Or free from the bondage of sin, which makes one "free" to enjoy the Father's influence, will, and redemption? Able to rejoice in His presence rather than run from it?
What do you make of how these scrips fit together, reconcile?
Forward excerpt and scriptures from The Christian Bible (extremely literal to the Koine Greek).
Lord vs. Master:
The Greek word "kurios" is the antonym (or
opposite) of "slave"; and the antonym of "slave" is "master," not "lord."
So we have properly translated "kurios" as "master."
Romans 1: 1 This is from
Paul, a slave of the Anointed One Yesu, who has
been called to be a dispatched envoy, having been cut off for God's
Good Message,
Romans 6:
You+ are slaves of the one whom you obey,
whether it is
slavery to that which is
wrong, which is going to result in Death,
or to obedience, which is going to result in being right
Romans 6: 18 Now
having been freed from that which is
wrong, you became slaves of that which is right [and just]. ..so
now you+
must present the parts of your bodies as slaves to that which is right [and
just], which is going to result in purity!... 22 Yet
now that you have been freed from that which is wrong and have become slaves of God1 Cor. 4: 4 A human must be continually regarding us in this manner, as
assistants of the Anointed One and management slaves of God's secrets!
1 Cor. 9: 16 For
if I am continually spreading the Good Message, I can't boast about it,
FOR
COMPULSION TO DO SO WAS PRESSED UPON ME; for how terrible it is for me if I don't spread the Good Message! 17
For if I am engaging in this
voluntarily, then I would have wages; yet if it is involuntarily, then I have
been entrusted with a service as a management slave. 18 So then, what is
my wage? It is this, that in spreading the Good Message
"3 CONTRAST" SCRIPS
1) Galatians 4:3 This is how it is with us too, when we were youngsters, we were slaves under the elementary lessons of this world. 4 Yet when the fullness [completion] of that time came, God dispatched out His Son, born from a woman, born under theLaw, 5
so that He might reclaim those under the Law, so that we might obtain adoption as sons. 6 Now because you+ are sons, God has dispatched His Son's Spirit out into our hearts, yelling, "Abba ['Father'],
Father!" 7 Therefore because of God you are no longer a slave, but a son;and since you are a son, then an heir also of a share.
2) Romans 8: 15 For
you+ didn't get a spirit of slavery again that results in fear, but you got a spirit of adoption as sons by which we are continually yelling out, "Abba ['Father'], Father!"
3)
!!! 1 Peter 1:16
Act like free persons, only don't use your freedom as a coverup for what is bad, but act like God's slaves.Philippians 1: 1 This is from
Paul and Timothy, slaves of the Anointed One Yesu,
James 1: 1 This is from
James, a slave of God and of the Master Yesu 2 Peter 1: 1 This is from
Simon Peter, a slave and envoy dispatched by YesuJude 1: 1 This is from
Jude, a slave of YesuRevelation 1: 1 This is the
revelation from Yesu (the Anointed One) that God
gave to Him
to show His slaves what has to occur within a short time. Now He has shown the signs and dispatched them by means of His
Messenger to
His slave JohnRevelation 7: 3 saying, "You must not injure the earth, the sea, or the trees,
until we
have put a seal on the foreheads of our God's slaves!"
Free is a state of mind, as much as anything else.
If you are married and adore your wife, you feel free, whereas if you don't, you might feel like a prisoner. But in both cases, your physical situation is the same.
In one case, the limitations that marriage imposes is a delight, in the other a burden.
Right Molly- and since we are engaged to be married to the King...
It will be a delight :dsunny:
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 02:43:57 PM
Free is a state of mind, as much as anything else.
If you are married and adore your wife, you feel free, whereas if you don't, you might feel like a prisoner. But in both cases, your physical situation is the same.
In one case, the limitations that marriage imposes is a delight, in the other a burden.
I like that. And it seems to me to tie into how I'm suggesting..not free of any influence, boundaries, guidance etc. (even in a good marriage there's PLENTY of that :). But rather freed to enjoy, delight in the presence, love spending time with the (P)person; being "protected"(freed) from the consequences of breaking those bonds in unfaithfulness and rebellion. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 08:06:27 AM
I mentioned that about Aaron and Moses because I thought you might understand. But, you didn't so I am at a loss to explain it easily. Let's just say although it might have looked as though Moses was less free once God came into his life directly, and on some level that might be argued, he was in fact more free, as would anyone be in the position of talking to his Creator face to face as a friend.
I'm sorry, where is that written?
Yes I don't understand, that is why I am here: 'to try to understand'. Am I in the wrong discussion? Is there maybe a UR for Dummies board where those whose questions are too simple to be answered here can be addressed without having them dragged through jargon?
Quote from: VineBranch on November 28, 2012, 04:36:03 AM
Quote from: Molly on November 28, 2012, 01:32:57 AM
So, in our sense of the word, Moses was no longer 'free' after that, he no longer belonged to himself.
When God finally decided to step in, Moses had no doubt in his mind what his mission was going forward.
I kinda think he did ...
Moses balked and said his speech wasn't up to the task. He said God could sent Aaron, and God sent Aaron with him. So, was that then Moses exercising his will? Scripture never said God wanted Aaron, yet lo and behold, because Moses broached the subject, Aaron went along. If God wanted Aaron along from the start Moses wasn't indeed "'free' after that...".
Maybe it's all a matter of point-of-view. Maybe God wanted Aaron along all the time, but He waited for Moses to suggest it. We really see so little of what's going on, and until we attain a higher outlook on the whole thing, such questions will never be settled.
Take a look at this paragraph from the manuscript of the book I am working on, for it shows more of Moses' will:
"Moses was up on Horeb, communing with God, getting the blueprint for a new society, and the people, thinking he was not coming back, demanded other Gods. This is told in the 32nd chapter of Exodus. Why, they still had the presence of the true God in front of them on the mountain! Given what Moses had said to them, the miracles in Egypt, the miracles along the way, the very presence of God Himself, it is difficult to imagine the motivation of these people. Too much contact with Egyptian idolatry? Fear? Whatever possessed them, even Aaron was taken in, and made them a golden calf. God knew what was going on, told Moses to get down off the mountain, and proposed destroying Israel and making a new nation from Moses and his family. Moses talked God out of this, and this part is interesting, for he said, "Turn from Thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against Thy people." [Exodus 32:12] Verse 14 goes on to say that, "And the Lord repented of the evil which He thought to do unto His people." This is very interesting, for two reasons. First, this is the second time we see God repenting – the first time was before the Flood, when He repented that He had made man, and determined to destroy man with a flood. I'm sure a theologian would say that that was all in God's plan, and perhaps "His repenting" is a way for Him to communicate with us on our own level, where we can understand. Second, God was about to do evil, and there is just no getting around this: good and evil both come from God. After all, this is the God who planted both the tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. We all have a ways to go to understand some of the deeper things of God."
The wonders of the things of God are. in one respect, twofold: the basics are so simple that a child can grasp them, but the deeper things of God are such that they cannot be comprehended in this life, for we are too limited to grasp them. Truly, our reach exceeds our grasp! We must be patient with God's teaching - remember that Jesus said to His disciples that He had much more to say to them, but they could not bear it in the here-and-now.
It is impossible for God to do evil and he never needs to repent.
That language was put in from mans point of view. It's as if God didn't
know what would happen all along. I believe God USES evil (just as he uses the devil)
but never himself commits evil. Evil is against love which is the very nature of God.
It's who He is, it's what he does.
Quote from: ded2daworld on November 28, 2012, 10:25:53 PM
It is impossible for God to do evil and he never needs to repent.
That language was put in from mans point of view. It's as if God didn't
know what would happen all along. I believe God USES evil (just as he uses the devil)
but never himself commits evil. Evil is against love which is the very nature of God.
It's who He is, it's what he does.
As I said, "I'm sure a theologian would say that that was all in God's plan, and perhaps "His repenting" is a way for Him to communicate with us on our own level, where we can understand."
I can well understand it being said for our POV and understanding, but God "repenting" and committing or even using evil not only opens up a Theological can of worms, but it informs us that we know too little about the things of God. You might be correct that it's impossible for God to do evil, for He did not completely destroy mankind in the Flood, and He had Moses talk Him out of destroying Israel. It is a lesson for us, I suppose. As to the repenting part, I think for God to repent is not the same as for us to repent. When we repent, we turn from our evil ways, but when God repents, He only changes His course of action, either of which is correct for Him to do, for He is sovereign.
oh yeah, I think the hebrew even has it different -more like God changing his mind.
Even then, I think it's impossible for an omniscient God "that changeth not" could ever really change his mind.
Vine, you're in the right discussion and a good place. Our threads just almost always wander and meander around into different things connected to the OP, some very loosely so. Also, some see things more literally, some more "spiritually"/metaphorical, so just take what addresses your particular questions and thoughts and some things might be best just lettin' slide on by for the present. Those other things may be helpful to someone else, click some further thought for them, as I believe we're all at a little different places in our walk. :thumbsup:
Blessings.
I apologise also Vine. As a moderator I sometimes only read up the previous 1 or 2 posts and I missed your and Mollys posting. Didn't realize anything was happening till I read Jabcats post and thought Wha-a-a-?
ALL posts are supposed to contain something along the lines of I think or IMO oe :2c: This is a discussion group and everybodys opinion is welcome-as long as its their opinion and doesn't belittle someone.
I'missed the exchange and should have caught it. my bad.
My intent, since we were talking about Moses, was simply to show that even though God had taken direct control over Moses' life at age 80--go here, say this, do that--Moses was freer than his brother Aaron, and freer than he had ever been in his life, because Moses is a prototype of the Melchizedek priesthood.
But, if one knows nothing of the different priesthoods, then the point would mean nothing to them, so, since that didn't occur to me when I mentioned it, I apologize and am sorry I ever brought it up.
This is my opinion. [I think I"ll make that my byline].
Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying. Heb 2:15
one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. Heb 7:16
Having read through what I could get my hands on about the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthood (those references not connected to the LDS Church), I still don't see how Moses was freer than Aaron at the time: Aaron wasn't a priest yet.
No need to apologise Molly, I just didn't understand. When I taught, I found using examples went a lot further than putting a label on the table. My pedagogy involves pointing to sources. I have found that explanation often prevents understanding in others.
I found Kissinger's book (thanks Jabcat). There is a lot of neat stuff in there.
Judging from the responses I take it we are using 'free' and 'free-will' to mean the same thing. Could this be yet another linguistic road block. I see free as situational, and free-will as absolute. I think there is a danger of watering down the definition if we try to combine the two. I did a lot of research into the evolution versus design debate and found when 'adaptation' and 'evolution' were combined it lead to a lot of chaos : people trying to make one into the other. This strikes me as being similar.
I do think however, that the UR position can't allow free-will in any form. It would have to limit it in some way to make it fit, and free-will limited is free-will lost. Which again leads me ask: why bother with the middle if the end is a forgone conclusion? (Please scroll up a few responses to see the whole post.)
May I ask why a new discussion was started instead of the question being addressed here?
Quote from: VineBranch on November 30, 2012, 05:09:24 AM
Having read through what I could get my hands on about the Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthood (those references not connected to the LDS Church), I still don't see how Moses was freer than Aaron at the time: Aaron wasn't a priest yet.
No need to apologise Molly, I just didn't understand. When I taught, I found using examples went a lot further than putting a label on the table. My pedagogy involves pointing to sources. I have found that explanation often prevents understanding in others.
I found Kissinger's book (thanks Jabcat). There is a lot of neat stuff in there.
Judging from the responses I take it we are using 'free' and 'free-will' to mean the same thing. Could this be yet another linguistic road block. I see free as situational, and free-will as absolute. I think there is a danger of watering down the definition if we try to combine the two. I did a lot of research into the evolution versus design debate and found when 'adaptation' and 'evolution' were combined it lead to a lot of chaos : people trying to make one into the other. This strikes me as being similar.
I do think however, that the UR position can't allow free-will in any form. It would have to limit it in some way to make it fit, and free-will limited is free-will lost. Which again leads me ask: why bother with the middle if the end is a forgone conclusion? (Please scroll up a few responses to see the whole post.)
May I ask why a new discussion was started instead of the question being addressed here?
The term "free-will" can be very misleading by degree. Everyone I know on this board believes God is "ultimately sovereign". Some (myself for instance :o) believe that God has given man a will to learn with as a stewardship, within the ultimate sovereignty of God. The subject has been discussed at length on the forum on many threads, and for a time the topic was discouraged because it was an occasion for strife and distraction from the purpose of the board.
There was a thread recently that was focused on the issue, if you would like to get a look at where some of the diversity represented on the forum is at.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/god%27s-will-man%27s-will-free-willsov-discussions/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/god%27s-will-man%27s-will-free-willsov-discussions/)
The main thing is to avoid taking a tone of absolute correctness concerning non essential discussions. The only kinds of things we should be absolute about on this forum are the Lordship of Jesus, the sufficiency of the cross and His blood to reconcile, His resurrection, the ultimate reconciliation of all, the love of God, the authority of the written word, etc. All other discussions should be kept in a friendly tone of discussion so as not to undercut the purpose of the forum, which is to spread the Victorious Gospel.
I do not believe that UR should be saddled with the free-will/sovereignty debate because I believe God's love and the cross of Jesus are glorious enough to win every sentient being in a totally free-will universe- so UR is vindicated in either paradigm, Calvinist or Arminian- as diversified in degree as the many understandings available between those polar extremes may be ;o)
"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me".
I agree it shouldn't be saddled with it: it is the debate. UR postulates a known conclusion. How can that be anything but the debate itself? I don't mean to be rude, but this would make it the ultimate 'essential' discussion. How could it not be? If we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose, then surely this debate must number among those all things. Surely it cannot be reduced to the status on non essential just because some wouldn't agree. I'm becoming more and more convinced that UR has a lot of merit. But surely we aren't right just because we think we are.
Quote from: VineBranch on November 30, 2012, 05:09:24 AM
I found Kissinger's book (thanks Jabcat). There is a lot of neat stuff in there.
good, yw :thumbsup:
Quote from: VineBranch on November 30, 2012, 05:09:24 AM
Judging from the responses I take it we are using 'free' and 'free-will' to mean the same thing. I think there is a danger of watering down the definition if we try to combine the two...May I ask why a new discussion was started instead of the question being addressed here?
Yes, that's why I decided to split it. It appeared we had 2 pretty distinct topics going in the same thread. So I took the "freedom in Christ" issue out of the "free will" discussion (to a large degree) with the new thread. I do think they can sort of wander back and forth, but I don't want to too radically confuse the two, when your original question/statement seemed more about
will rather than
condition - and I didn't want that to get lost. :2c:
Quote from: VineBranch on November 30, 2012, 05:09:24 AM
I do think however, that the UR position can't allow free-will in any form. It would have to limit it in some way to make it fit, and free-will limited is free-will lost. Which again leads me ask: why bother with the middle if the end is a forgone conclusion? (Please scroll up a few responses to see the whole post.)
My view; Probably most of Christendom, and many on these boards don't agree with me - but I personally won't even use the term "free will" when trying to make a point. I believe it's too ambiguous, "loaded", and has to be explained anyway. I.e., what are the varying degrees of "free"? lol And if constrained at all, one iota, is it then truly free? Or "free", within certain contexts, boundaries, comparisons, etc. (ex. - yes, free from sin, but bound to God)? That's why I believe (as eaglesway said) God is absolutely sovereign, but in His wisdom and Plan of the Ages, He has chosen to have us learn through both our experience of Him placing us here to begin with, in His creation (the earth is His and the fulness thereof Ps. 24:1); and then through choices He requires us to make, within boundaries He sets and options He sets before us (even using satan as a tool in that regard :o. To perhaps over-simplify, we grow by resisting satan and looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith - and, by resisting our own will, and yielding to His.
That's where I personally go with
man's will/God's will. Because I don't think it's possible we could ever have a completely "free will" as long as God is alive. And we know how long that will be. Because even when we're immortal and as free as we can ever possibly be, He is still reigning, we are still subject to Him, and anything we have in us and freely flowing from us and through us, has ultimately been placed there by Him. "
For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen". Rom. 11:36
You got me digging VB :thumbsup:, and God provided. ("it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter" Pr. 25;2) This is information I really like, even if not necessarily agreeing on every jot and tittle or exact wording. I believe it's still very useful information. It's from Christian Bible Students, apparently a non-denominational group. I included part of their statement of faith for a reference point.
We accept Christ as our personal Savior, and believe that he died not only for the Christian, but for all the world.
We accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God, and study it in its entirety--both the Old and the New Testaments, seeking the harmony of complete Scriptural testimony (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).
------------------------
Certainly, God could have prevented Satan's temptation, but God allowed it for an enduring practical lesson for men and angels. God wanted man to experience and see the natural consequences of sin for a wise purpose. Jehovah is "not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness" (Psalm 5:4). God is permitting evil for a time, but what He has planned for man will more than compensate for all the pain and suffering this object lesson has caused.
Every right principle has an opposite wrong principle: truth and falsity, love and hatred, etc. A principle that is right ultimately produces harmony, happiness and good. A principle that is wrong produces harm, unhappiness and evil. Humans were created with an ability to choose between right and wrong—a conscience. However, man's moral sense has been affected by the fall; some more and some less.
A dog has some intelligence and can make choices based on training gained by certain rewards or punishments from his master. A dog, however, is ignorant of the moral quality of its actions. When a dog rescues or harms somebody, the action cannot be considered either virtuous or sinning; it is merely the result of instinct, not ethics. On the contrary, people do have more or less of a moral sense. When they do good, it is virtuous. When they do evil, it is sinful.
God Did Not Make Man a Robot
God could have made man a robot to always do what is right, but then he would not have been in God's "image" (Genesis 1:26, 27). God could have shielded man from Satan's temptation, but then man would still have been subject to ambitions from within. As a result, his future would always have been uncertain.
In God's wisdom, he foreknew that what is good can best be appreciated by its contrast. When God expelled disobedient Adam and Eve from His fellowship in the Garden of Eden, they began to learn the exceedingly sinfulness of sin. They began to "know good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)—and to appreciate the difference. During all the centuries thereafter, their posterity has been learning the lesson of evil. Later, during God's Kingdom, mankind will fully experience the contrasting benefits of good.
The moral sense of Adam was an important feature of his likeness to God, but after 6,000 years of degradation, man's natural moral sense has been largely reduced. Now sin is often more agreeable to people than good.
If the opportunity to sin were not permitted, man could not have resisted it, and there would be neither virtue nor merit in his right-doing. But God wishes intelligent and willing obedience, not mechanical service. God already had many animate and inanimate creations to His glory. In creating man, His design was to make an intelligent creature in his own likeness; a master for earth, whose conduct would be based on the value of right over wrong, good over evil.
The principles of right and wrong have always existed, but only the principle of right will continue to be active forever. The activity of wrong will continue only long enough to accomplish God's purpose. Then evil will forever cease (1 Corinthians 15:25, 26).
Learning by Experience
Could the knowledge of sin have come in some other way? Could the dreadful evils the human race has experienced been avoided? Not in so effective and lasting a way. There are four ways of knowing something:
Intuition
Observation
Experience
Information
Only God has intuitive knowledge. He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). Therefore, man's knowledge of good and evil could not be intuitive. Adam had a knowledge of evil by information, but that proved insufficient to keep him from trying the experiment. Man might have learned by observation, but in order to observe the results of sin, there had to be a demonstration of it somewhere in the universe. Why shouldn't man be the illustration? The Scriptures tell us that man's experience with sin and evil is, in fact, being observed by the angels (1 Corinthians 4:9). However, the deepest learning is gained by practical experience, and that is primarily how mankind is learning—by personal experience with evil.
Adam did experience good in the garden, but his knowledge of evil was only from information: "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). He had no experience of sin with which to predict the pain and suffering that would come. Consequently, he yielded to temptation when it arose.
Adam's offense may seem small compared to the penalty, but at stake was the fundamental principle of obedience. Obedience is essential to the everlasting blessing of God's creation. God above knows what is best for His creation's welfare and everlasting happiness.
Adam was induced into sin through his wife, whose communication with God was more limited than Adam's. Eve transgressed what she knew was right. But she was deceived by the serpent as to the consequences (2 Corinthians 11:3). Adam, however, was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14). Adam willfully shared in Eve's disobedience, evidently choosing not to live without her. Thus both Adam and Eve were "in the transgression," and both were cursed. Eve shared in the sentence which she helped bring upon Adam. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).
Created with.. Choice
God created man with.. choice, even though He foresaw that man's moral nature would stray. God is permitting man's present experience with evil to teach him the exceeding sinfulness of sin. The result will develop in mankind more love and appreciation for the Creator and demonstrate the brilliance of virtue in contrast.
The Just Penalty for Sin
God has the power to force man to worship Him, but this is not His desire. God seeks the worship of man from a free heart, willingly, "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24), and this is in the best interests of His creatures. During the Millennium, the world will worship God of their own choice, appreciating God for His goodness.
In the meantime, God allows man to learn by practical experience. He allows man to taste sin and its consequences. He has also planned for man's recovery by providing a Savior at great cost. In due time, the "ransom for all" will be appreciated by the world as a remarkable gift from God (1 Timothy 2:3- 6). Thus man's.. will was foreknown and overruled for their good.
Some might agree that imposing the penalty upon Adam was just, but think it unjust that all of his descendants suffer the results. The question is would we have done better if tried individually? Would not at least the majority have been tempted to disobey eventually?
By allowing Adam to pass his condemned life on to us all, God allows experience with death and dying to educate us all. Then, because we were all condemned in one man, we could all be redeemed by one Man—Jesus.
Death is a reasonable consequence for sin. Those who, after having a full experience and knowledge of sin and its suffering, do not choose to follow the wise counsels of God would be a source of unhappiness to themselves and others. There is no reason to continue their existence for the ages of eternity. The present dying process that mankind experiences is a somber lesson to impress the gravity of disobedience.
Meanwhile, life even as we have it now is a favor and is so esteemed by the vast majority. From cradle to grave, life has blessings sufficient so that nearly everyone wants to keep living. It is a small foretaste of the everlasting, wonderful and glorious life God plans for all who will accept His reasonable terms for life.
Penalty of Death—Not Torture
Sadly, many have misrepresented God's character and plan by saying that God plans to punish unbelievers with eternal torture. This is very wrong! God's penalty for sin is clearly stated: "You shall surely die" (Genesis 2:17 NAS). "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). "The soul [person, being] that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). Only a few texts in the symbolic book of Revelation, or in the parables, suggest a torment of fire. In each of these cases it can be demonstrated that fire represents destruction. The penalty for sin is death—not life in torture.*
* The "lake of fire" in Revelation is a symbol of destruction, "second death" (Revelation 20:14). The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is acknowledged by thoughtful commentaries to be a parable. The Rich Man represents Judah and Benjamin and his "five brethren" represent the other 10 tribes, who "have Moses and the prophets." The fiery tribulation represents the fiery trials Israel experienced after rejecting their Messiah (compare Deuteronomy 32:22-26). Lazarus, received into the bosom of Abraham, represents the outcasts of Israel and the Gentiles who embraced the spiritual features of the Abrahamic Covenant by accepting Jesus, the "seed of Abraham."
Condemnation to death passed upon the whole human race by one man's disobedience. One man sinned with an unborn race in him. Thus he and all his posterity were condemned. That condemnation could only be removed by the death of one perfect man who would take the condemnation we deserve upon himself. That one unblemished man, a perfect race unborn within him, was "the man Christ Jesus" who died a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:5) to satisfy the demands of justice against Adam and his race.
The Great Plan of Restoration
Because of God's permission of evil, His great Plan of redemption will be gloriously successful! All the misery, pain and tragedy caused by evil will be more than offset by the wonderful blessings of the Kingdom.
Mankind will benefit eternally from the experience with evil. This experience will also be a monumental demonstration to the angelic hosts of God's glorious character. All will see God's Justice in condemning disobedience. All will see God's immeasurable Love in sending His own Son to satisfy justice in order to redeem us. All will see God's Power in the perfect uniting in Christ of all His intelligent creation "both which are in heaven, and which are on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). All will see God's far-seeing Wisdom in using even unwilling agents to accomplish the glorious destiny planned for His creation.
God's law of the universe for all intelligent beings is summed up in one word: LOVE. Because "God is love" (1 John 4:8), He has chosen the very best Plan for us all.
Ultimately, when God's purpose in the temporary permission of evil is complete, everyone will appreciate what He has done. Until then, with the eye of faith we look forward to the time when all mankind will be restored, as planned since the world began (Acts 3:19-21).
Quote from: VineBranch on November 30, 2012, 09:25:49 AM
I agree it shouldn't be saddled with it: it is the debate. UR postulates a known conclusion. How can that be anything but the debate itself? I don't mean to be rude, but this would make it the ultimate 'essential' discussion. How could it not be? If we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose, then surely this debate must number among those all things. Surely it cannot be reduced to the status on non essential just because some wouldn't agree. I'm becoming more and more convinced that UR has a lot of merit. But surely we aren't right just because we think we are.
It absolutely is not the debate....because the parameters of "the debate" cannot be established and agreed on. Some believe every act is choreographed by the sovereignty of God, some believe there is wiggle room.
I can demonstrate clearly UR through the scriptures to a believer from a "free will" background and have done so , and won them.
I essentially agree with the positions presented in the post above- but many Calvinists would not, nor would many Arminians. It has the problem of being reasonable and balanced.
The issue of whether or not we are "right" about the shades of value that define our various systematic theologies is not the issue. This forum is about the salvation of all and explaining it for the benefit of seekers from across Christendom. It is not for the purpose of arguing out the differing doctrinal issue that those varying groups believe in.
The "issue" of the board is the restoration of all things. Not everyone will have the time, the inclination or the interest to refine the issues of God's will/man's will/free will/sovereignty and it is not the essential aspect of UR- beyond the fact that God has ordained and made provision within His plan of the ages that all will be saved.
One may believe and declare the restoration of all things from either a Calvinist or Arminian background.
All that is needed is to realize that the love of God, as demonstrated in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, is sufficiently glorious to eventually win every sentient being into the "anakepalaomai"(Eph 9-11).
I have won Pentecostals, Biblical Unitarians, Lutherans and others into the UR perspective, never needing to refute any doctrine other than eternal torment and annihilation.
No other discussion should overshadow the purpose of the board which is to promote UR, the issue upon which we all agree and are here to share.
Quote....
"God wishes intelligent and willing obedience, not mechanical service. God already had many animate and inanimate creations to His glory. In creating man, His design was to make an intelligent creature in his own likeness; a master for earth, whose conduct would be based on the value of right over wrong, good over evil."
I agree with this statement, but I would add something to it. God desired to teach man about love, which is the tree of life, and transcends good and evil. "Good and evil" are a partial revelation passing away like the glory on Moses face. Love is the "essential lesson" breaking like the dawn over the whole creation, eternal.
God is love. "This is not a new command I give to you, it is the one that you had from the beginning, love one another."
Jesus taught clearly that the essence of obedience is love. The "Masters of the earth" were to live in the same degree of harmony and unity with one another within God that Jesus and the angels have together within Him.
"That you may be one, even as I and the Father are one".
Intelligence and willingness are good. They are aspects of the loving gift of life God has bestowed upon all His creation.
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
(1Co 13:8-10)
What is the partial? All that is not consumed with love. What is the ultimate obedience? There can be no obedience that does not spring from love. The act that seems good but does not come out of love is vanity.
The way I see it, this is the purpose of all that God has done. Jesus obeyed, "for the joy set before Him"- the salvation of all. His act came out of the love of God, and a shared love for His creation. This is the priesthood of the sons of God and the victory of the overcomers and the source of their inheritance. Love, in order to be love- must be given freely. That kind of obedience is GIVEN, not taken. Offered as a "free-will offering", an "acceptable sacrifice". That is why the law was not sufficient, merely a shadow of something better to come. The whole creation set free into the glorious liberty of the children of God- love offered freely from hearts in union with the Father. Whatever the interim means, this is what God predestined and foreknew, setting the wheels in motion according to His "kind intention" who cause all things to work according to the counsel of His will.
Quote from: jabcat on November 30, 2012, 10:21:29 AM
... I don't think it's possible we could ever have a completely "free will" as long as God is alive.
Now, we're talking.
So, in keeping with the universe as classroom motif: which is what I gleaned your last post was about. Thanks for that by the way, I'm honoured you would give so freely of your time to dig and research like that to show me from where your point comes. As you so nicely pointed out my favourite verse in Proverbs (["it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter" Pr. 25;2], thanks for that), could we say something like, you are free to learn and experience what is here (in that part of the universe in which God put you), but everyone will eventually graduate because the teacher is just that good?
God's sovereignty is a given in my world. The important thing for me is that he loves me, and that is why He leads me through this. My dad wouldn't abandon me to some cold theological principle; His mantle over me is His love. That's why UR didn't frighten me the way it did some of my friends when I discussed it with them. Either God is in charge or He is not, and either that is enough for one, or it is not. In my world God is not theology, He's my dad, and as such He has the best patenting skills ever.
I once said on my website that if it ain't about love, it ain't about God, to me that's as true now as when I wrote it.
Eagle: I'm not really interested in winning, just in understanding. If you have won so many debates I guess you win. Might I beg a favour though? Could tell me what it is like for YOU to believe in UR. How does it add to your relationship with your dad. I'm finding that the more I come to accept the things I have learned on this site, I'm actually starting to feel closer to mine. I always knew he would never abandon me, and now that I have more details about UR, and in a way that belief if confirmed, I like Him more as well.
I know you asked EW but here's my :2c:
I had difficulty dealing with ET. I had grown up in a Jewish neighborhood
and almost all my friends were Jewish. I was so naive, I thought they'd
all be even more excited than I was to find out the Messiah out of the tribe of Judah had come. NOT
I was even more confused to learn that "all Israel would be saved" but my parents would not.
The more I learned about God and his nature, the more I refused to believe it could be like the Baptist churches I was in portrayed it. To them, God loves you ONLY if you love him and trust in Jesus.
What kind of love was that?? Conditional. What was conditional love? The kind of love non-believers had.
"I love you because" or I'll love you IF (add performance here)
If we weren't saved by anything we had done (the free gift) how could the gift be withheld from anyone
because of what they did?
Ded: I got a little chocked up when I read your post. Thank you. That was such a warm reply.
I've sat in many churches and relate to your confusion that anyone would think God loves some and literally just doesn't care about others. He sent Christ when we were yet His enemies. Yet some would have us belive He can't care about certain people, simply because they sit in another sheep pen, or another pew in another church? You are too right. I'm still a little teary; you talk about my dad with love in your words: to me that's the neatest thing. God loves me cause He does; He created me cause it pleased Him to do so.
Thanks
Perhaps in part because I was raised in a family and a church that said it was all up to man's will I didn't believe in what may be called "The Sovereignty of God" until it was revealed to me; yet, humans are held responsible to varying degrees for what they do. Here, in Jesus own words, is the contradiction: "For the Son of man indeed goeth, as it hath been predetermined: but woe unto that man through whom he is betrayed! (Lk2222) Every believer should memorize this verse early in their walk with God to avoid building a wall down the middle of it, taking sides and throwing rocks at anyone on the other side.
One of the ideas in the back of may head for so long a time is a question that wonders what kind of life they must have, these people who believe in free will. So much of my life, good or bad, cannot be the result of the manipulations of my own will. I've suffered horrendous things over periods of years just because of the family I was born into. It had nothing to do with anything I enacted. There was no cause and effect with me as cause, though my dad had me convinced otherwise: I was beaten because I was a bad boy. I never understood until I was 30 years old that he was the one with the problem.
A very dear friend for many years, when she believed that way would say to me, "Life is what you make it. You make up your own mind. Even God doesn't force you into something. It's up to you to decide what you'll do with your life." She got degrees, good "career" status jobs and snagged a wonderful man." Oops, I guess he turned out not so wonderful after all. But that's what happens when you make your own choices: some of them are wrong. In just that horrible development -- he'd taken the kids and for several months she knew not where -- she discovered God's sovereign grace.
For my Buddhist friend, a nice man has a nice car. His ideas of Karma have him thinking bad people look bad, have bad experiences in life and they wear ugly clothes. Many Christians think, as I did, you must not be believing right if you have to go through bad experiences. Such a believe justifies you in your own mind when you have so much and refuse to help others. They're just getting what they deserve. You wouldn't want me to go against God's chastening work, would you?
I wonder at how little experience in life some people must have to believe it's all happening according to whatever they want to believe...that God has left you to choose?
It is possible to confuse independent will with unmerited favor. They are not the same. Because of unmerited favor I am free. The prison door is open and I may leave it, if I want to. If not, I am forgiven, but I am not free. If I leave the prison and take His yoke upon me and follow Him I will be freed progressively and will ultimately be totally free- when I am totally in agreement with God because of the final victory of Jesus Christ within my being. Nothing I can do will earn my salvation- my deliverance from the consequences of the fall. Only the sacrifice of Christ supplied my need. But as someone posted earlier, God is not choosing automatons. He is teaching children to mature into sons and daughters through the exercise of their wills in agreement with His. What parent would want only the obedience that was given by necessity or by the greater power of the parent. Can't we see in nature how God deals with us as children- even as Christ taught us using the example of how we deal with our own?
"What man if his son ask him for a loaf of bread would give his son a stone? In the like manner God knows how to give good gifts to His children." There is no need to fear sin. Sin has been conquered in the redeemed. We are free from sin and "alive unto Christ".
A good parent teaches their child, "As you sow, so shall you also reap". The child is loved whether he is wise or unwise.....but the good parent will allow the child to reap as he sows in order to teach the child how to direct his will, his gifts, his intellect, his life......in fruitful ways. So it is with God.
It must be so, or else to many scriptures fall by the wayside untrue. For every story of religious abuse that has driven a person into an opposing doctrinal extreme, there must indeed be an understanding and sympathetic response- but not at the expense of the scriptures, or to the extreme of demanding that everyone bow the knee to a particular doctrinal view.
In the parable of the talents, what is Jesus teaching? What of the parable of the unrighteous steward? What of the parable of the landowner and the tenants who murder his son? You might say, "God caused all these individuals to do as they did". Then, as Paul said- why does God hold anyone accountable? When Paul says, "What is it to you if....? He is saying to you., "This knowledge is to high for you on this plane....It is not for you to know.....As for you, Today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts as they did in the wilderness and saw my works forty years".
There is a paradoxical paradigm involved in the two sides of the coin that purchases the whole counsel of God and we can't toss out verses of scriptures and make the rest of them symbolic. Jesus spoke in parables to reveal mysteries hidden from the foundations of the world and few of those mysteries are sufficiently exhumed by systematic theology. The hidden wisdom is just that- wisdom, and wisdom justifies her children.
It is a mystery seen through a glass darkly even by the likes of Paul.
Love is the key to it all. the only true freedom is love, and in the end all will be in love, and IMO, that love will be free because it will be totally pure.
My point, over and over again, has been NOT to stand for free will over against God's sovereignty. God is absolutely sovereign, and as such He gives free reign when and where He wants to in the measure He desires, in order to complete His kind intention, predetermined before the foundation of the world, which is IMO to set everyone completely free within His love.
As far as I am concerned, to take God's sovereignty too far denies the scriptures just as much as taking the measure of independent will He has given men and angels to far. The Lord knows when the reigns are free and when they are tight. We won't see that until we are through the veil.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 01, 2012, 03:22:27 AM
A good parent teaches their child, "As you sow, so shall you also reap". The child is loved whether he is wise or unwise.....but the good parent will allow the child to reap as he sows in order to teach the child how to direct his will, his gifts, his intellect, his life......in fruitful ways. So it is with God.
Thanks!
I see your point but how does knowing that, affect you, specifically eaglesway, in your day to day relationship with your dad? How does knowing you are still protected regardless of how you live your life change or alter your life with your Father? Over the past couple of days I've had to seriously question some of the things I believed. As a result, I feel closer to God: I think He brought me here to learn that. How does knowing what YOU know impact how you go through life with God?
Yes it does. Sort of as Reformer spoke, about not building a wall and walking rite down the center of the revelation. Knowing that God loves me regardless of my failures and my faults, and that His highest hope and plan for me is that I would walk in the inheritance of His Son- causes me to fall upon my knees and seek His face, cry out for grace to believe and to love Him and be drawn into the ALL IN ALL.
As the deer pants for the steams of water, so my soul thirsts after You.
The glory of it helps me to love all kinds of people from a genuine place, not feigned, but instilled by God.
Who knows where that will lead :o)
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Eph 3:14-21)
Quote from: eaglesway on December 01, 2012, 04:50:59 AM
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Eph 3:14-21)
Amen
I would like to thank you guys for something else. I have been struggling with an issue for a while, and because of this forum I finally have the words to form the proper question. Once I asked the question of myself, it became somewhat rhetorical. Words are very important to me, and now I have those words and now I have an answer to a question because I finally found the right question to ask. I have some peace about that issue now.
Again, thanks guys.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 01, 2012, 12:25:04 AM
I wonder at how little experience in life some people must have to believe it's all happening according to whatever they want to believe...that God has left you to choose?
Could it be that the experience is filtered through preconceived notions? I once wrote a paper on stigma. My conclusion was that once a stigma was assigned, everything, even those things which contradicted each other was used to prove that the stigma was properly placed. Nothing could remove the stigma except moving away from the environment.
I grew up in Holland. Even when I was growing up: long after WWII ended, German children (who were born ten years after the war ended) were still being shackled with the monikers my parents called the Nazis. Perhaps some people don't have experiences as much as they live confirmations.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 01, 2012, 05:17:08 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 01, 2012, 04:50:59 AM
Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
(Eph 3:14-21)
Amen
I would like to thank you guys for something else. I have been struggling with an issue for a while, and because of this forum I finally have the words to form the proper question. Once I asked the question of myself, it became somewhat rhetorical. Words are very important to me, and now I have those words and now I have an answer to a question because I finally found the right question to ask. I have some peace about that issue now.
Again, thanks guys.
Glad you've been benefitting from things, it's a blessing to help a little bit.
:thumbsup:
Perspective means so much.
Left to chose? So sad indeed. When would God leave us to choose? He is a Father. He guides us, He woos us, He disciplines us for our own good- and he oversees our choices, leaving with every temptation a way of escape. What parent would leave their child to choose. Perhaps step back a bit with a watchful eye.... Perhaps for a particularly rebellious child to stay a little closer and to brandish the rod on occasion.
And what are we choosing. Love, grace, Him, one another :o)
God never leaves us- "For in Him we live and move and have our being"........altho he may hide his face from us for a moment in order to catch our attention, He will never forsake us.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have koinonea together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
God is teaching us to walk with Him and we are growing to love Him more and more....and learning to choose love among ourselves over knowledge, power, the praises of men, etc.
"That you may be one even as I and the Father are one, the Father in me and I in the Father and you in me"
IMO, it is ALL.....God's sovereign will and our formative will as children of men wherever the dividing lines are......about union and communion- that God may be ALL IN ALL.
It is in such a covenant of love that we become fit ministers of reconciliation, finally knowing what spirit we are of.
Quote from: jabcat on November 30, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
You got me digging VB :thumbsup:, and God provided. ("it is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter" Pr. 25;2) This is information I really like, even if not necessarily agreeing on every jot and tittle or exact wording. I believe it's still very useful information. It's from Christian Bible Students, apparently a non-denominational group. I included part of their statement of faith for a reference point.
We accept Christ as our personal Savior, and believe that he died not only for the Christian, but for all the world.
We accept the Bible as the inspired Word of God, and study it in its entirety--both the Old and the New Testaments, seeking the harmony of complete Scriptural testimony (2 Timothy 3:16, 17).
------------------------
Certainly, God could have prevented Satan's temptation, but God allowed it for an enduring practical lesson for men and angels. God wanted man to experience and see the natural consequences of sin for a wise purpose. Jehovah is "not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness" (Psalm 5:4). God is permitting evil for a time, but what He has planned for man will more than compensate for all the pain and suffering this object lesson has caused.
Every right principle has an opposite wrong principle: truth and falsity, love and hatred, etc. A principle that is right ultimately produces harmony, happiness and good. A principle that is wrong produces harm, unhappiness and evil. Humans were created with an ability to choose between right and wrong—a conscience. However, man's moral sense has been affected by the fall; some more and some less.
A dog has some intelligence and can make choices based on training gained by certain rewards or punishments from his master. A dog, however, is ignorant of the moral quality of its actions. When a dog rescues or harms somebody, the action cannot be considered either virtuous or sinning; it is merely the result of instinct, not ethics. On the contrary, people do have more or less of a moral sense. When they do good, it is virtuous. When they do evil, it is sinful.
God Did Not Make Man a Robot
God could have made man a robot to always do what is right, but then he would not have been in God's "image" (Genesis 1:26, 27). God could have shielded man from Satan's temptation, but then man would still have been subject to ambitions from within. As a result, his future would always have been uncertain.
In God's wisdom, he foreknew that what is good can best be appreciated by its contrast. When God expelled disobedient Adam and Eve from His fellowship in the Garden of Eden, they began to learn the exceedingly sinfulness of sin. They began to "know good and evil" (Genesis 3:22)—and to appreciate the difference. During all the centuries thereafter, their posterity has been learning the lesson of evil. Later, during God's Kingdom, mankind will fully experience the contrasting benefits of good.
The moral sense of Adam was an important feature of his likeness to God, but after 6,000 years of degradation, man's natural moral sense has been largely reduced. Now sin is often more agreeable to people than good.
If the opportunity to sin were not permitted, man could not have resisted it, and there would be neither virtue nor merit in his right-doing. But God wishes intelligent and willing obedience, not mechanical service. God already had many animate and inanimate creations to His glory. In creating man, His design was to make an intelligent creature in his own likeness; a master for earth, whose conduct would be based on the value of right over wrong, good over evil.
The principles of right and wrong have always existed, but only the principle of right will continue to be active forever. The activity of wrong will continue only long enough to accomplish God's purpose. Then evil will forever cease (1 Corinthians 15:25, 26).
Learning by Experience
Could the knowledge of sin have come in some other way? Could the dreadful evils the human race has experienced been avoided? Not in so effective and lasting a way. There are four ways of knowing something:
Intuition
Observation
Experience
Information
Only God has intuitive knowledge. He knows "the end from the beginning" (Isaiah 46:10). Therefore, man's knowledge of good and evil could not be intuitive. Adam had a knowledge of evil by information, but that proved insufficient to keep him from trying the experiment. Man might have learned by observation, but in order to observe the results of sin, there had to be a demonstration of it somewhere in the universe. Why shouldn't man be the illustration? The Scriptures tell us that man's experience with sin and evil is, in fact, being observed by the angels (1 Corinthians 4:9). However, the deepest learning is gained by practical experience, and that is primarily how mankind is learning—by personal experience with evil.
Adam did experience good in the garden, but his knowledge of evil was only from information: "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). He had no experience of sin with which to predict the pain and suffering that would come. Consequently, he yielded to temptation when it arose.
Adam's offense may seem small compared to the penalty, but at stake was the fundamental principle of obedience. Obedience is essential to the everlasting blessing of God's creation. God above knows what is best for His creation's welfare and everlasting happiness.
Adam was induced into sin through his wife, whose communication with God was more limited than Adam's. Eve transgressed what she knew was right. But she was deceived by the serpent as to the consequences (2 Corinthians 11:3). Adam, however, was not deceived (1 Timothy 2:14). Adam willfully shared in Eve's disobedience, evidently choosing not to live without her. Thus both Adam and Eve were "in the transgression," and both were cursed. Eve shared in the sentence which she helped bring upon Adam. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).
Created with.. Choice
God created man with.. choice, even though He foresaw that man's moral nature would stray. God is permitting man's present experience with evil to teach him the exceeding sinfulness of sin. The result will develop in mankind more love and appreciation for the Creator and demonstrate the brilliance of virtue in contrast.
The Just Penalty for Sin
God has the power to force man to worship Him, but this is not His desire. God seeks the worship of man from a free heart, willingly, "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24), and this is in the best interests of His creatures. During the Millennium, the world will worship God of their own choice, appreciating God for His goodness.
In the meantime, God allows man to learn by practical experience. He allows man to taste sin and its consequences. He has also planned for man's recovery by providing a Savior at great cost. In due time, the "ransom for all" will be appreciated by the world as a remarkable gift from God (1 Timothy 2:3- 6). Thus man's.. will was foreknown and overruled for their good.
Some might agree that imposing the penalty upon Adam was just, but think it unjust that all of his descendants suffer the results. The question is would we have done better if tried individually? Would not at least the majority have been tempted to disobey eventually?
By allowing Adam to pass his condemned life on to us all, God allows experience with death and dying to educate us all. Then, because we were all condemned in one man, we could all be redeemed by one Man—Jesus.
Death is a reasonable consequence for sin. Those who, after having a full experience and knowledge of sin and its suffering, do not choose to follow the wise counsels of God would be a source of unhappiness to themselves and others. There is no reason to continue their existence for the ages of eternity. The present dying process that mankind experiences is a somber lesson to impress the gravity of disobedience.
Meanwhile, life even as we have it now is a favor and is so esteemed by the vast majority. From cradle to grave, life has blessings sufficient so that nearly everyone wants to keep living. It is a small foretaste of the everlasting, wonderful and glorious life God plans for all who will accept His reasonable terms for life.
Penalty of Death—Not Torture
Sadly, many have misrepresented God's character and plan by saying that God plans to punish unbelievers with eternal torture. This is very wrong! God's penalty for sin is clearly stated: "You shall surely die" (Genesis 2:17 NAS). "The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). "The soul [person, being] that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). Only a few texts in the symbolic book of Revelation, or in the parables, suggest a torment of fire. In each of these cases it can be demonstrated that fire represents destruction. The penalty for sin is death—not life in torture.*
* The "lake of fire" in Revelation is a symbol of destruction, "second death" (Revelation 20:14). The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is acknowledged by thoughtful commentaries to be a parable. The Rich Man represents Judah and Benjamin and his "five brethren" represent the other 10 tribes, who "have Moses and the prophets." The fiery tribulation represents the fiery trials Israel experienced after rejecting their Messiah (compare Deuteronomy 32:22-26). Lazarus, received into the bosom of Abraham, represents the outcasts of Israel and the Gentiles who embraced the spiritual features of the Abrahamic Covenant by accepting Jesus, the "seed of Abraham."
Condemnation to death passed upon the whole human race by one man's disobedience. One man sinned with an unborn race in him. Thus he and all his posterity were condemned. That condemnation could only be removed by the death of one perfect man who would take the condemnation we deserve upon himself. That one unblemished man, a perfect race unborn within him, was "the man Christ Jesus" who died a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:5) to satisfy the demands of justice against Adam and his race.
The Great Plan of Restoration
Because of God's permission of evil, His great Plan of redemption will be gloriously successful! All the misery, pain and tragedy caused by evil will be more than offset by the wonderful blessings of the Kingdom.
Mankind will benefit eternally from the experience with evil. This experience will also be a monumental demonstration to the angelic hosts of God's glorious character. All will see God's Justice in condemning disobedience. All will see God's immeasurable Love in sending His own Son to satisfy justice in order to redeem us. All will see God's Power in the perfect uniting in Christ of all His intelligent creation "both which are in heaven, and which are on earth" (Ephesians 1:10). All will see God's far-seeing Wisdom in using even unwilling agents to accomplish the glorious destiny planned for His creation.
God's law of the universe for all intelligent beings is summed up in one word: LOVE. Because "God is love" (1 John 4:8), He has chosen the very best Plan for us all.
Ultimately, when God's purpose in the temporary permission of evil is complete, everyone will appreciate what He has done. Until then, with the eye of faith we look forward to the time when all mankind will be restored, as planned since the world began (Acts 3:19-21).
Hi Jabcat. Those are some excellent and thought provoking comments. Here is something else to consider: The fall of man was preordained by God. It was God's purpose that Adam eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is why God had already prepared for his restoration. Remember the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world(1Peter 1:19-20; Revelation 13:8). By eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam took the first step toward being conformed(made) into the complete image or likeness of God(Romans 8:29). Eve ate the fruit because of her natural desire for food and the lust in her heart(Genesis 3:6): Adam ate the fruit because of his natural desire and love he had for Eve, his wife. Adam knows that Eve will soon die, and he does not want to be separated from her. So Adam and Eve disobey God, and the punishment is death(return to dust). God destroys or turns Adam(man) to dust---"Thou dost turn man back into dust, And dost say, Return, O children of men" Psalm 90:3 NASB. God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can conform Adam(man) into His image. God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature. Adam and Eve were satisfying the desires of the flesh(nature). We would fare no better under similar circumstances. Even we as Christians still sin sometimes because of our carnal nature.. Now let's see what the tree of the {knowledge of good and evil} represents: Conscience---Internal {Knowledge} or judgment of {right and wrong}; the moral sense; morality(New Webster's Dictionary 2005 Expanded Edition). Knowledge---The fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association(Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary). Adam when he ate of the tree, became a moral agent. Adam now has a conscience. Adam now posseses valuable knowledge that God has. God is a moral being with a divine nature. Adam(man) is now a moral being but with a carnal(flesh) nature. Now that Adam(man) has this knowledge, Adam(man) can now be held accountable for his actions. Adam(man) can be held accountable for his actions, because he now knows right(good) from wrong(evil), but God takes full responsiblity for the fall, because the fall of Adam(man) was preordained by God. God will pay for all the damages that Adam's sin caused. What are those damages?---pain, guilt, suffering, sickness, disease, sorrow, death, etc. Of course God pays for these damages through the death, burial, and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ. God wants man to know both good and evil. That's why the knowledge of good and evil was in the same tree. God want's man to experience evil and all the pain and suffering that comes with evil, so that man can appreciate the goodness of God. This is why it is always {darkest} before the {light},{weeping} endures for a night, {joy} comes in the morning, we experience {death} in Adam, and in Christ, we are {made alive}. This is called the laws of contrast. God will destroy man's carnal nature, his self will, his pride. God will then give man His divine nature. Then man will be able to see and appreciate the goodness of God. Blessings to you.
Thanks rj. Good comments. You're getting into some even deeper water here. :)
Jesus wasn't plan B. As you note, He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (cosmos). God's not surprised, is he?
Thanks for digging deeper into the Adam/evil discussion. Again, good comments - and it begins, and ends, with God's love and mercy. Blessings to you too.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 01, 2012, 07:47:55 AM
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.
So, re-made Adam doesn't have as soul? When he 'remakes' Adam, does he 're-breathe' the same soul (making him Adam) or a new soul (making him someone else) into him?
If Adam is destroyed how can he be 're-made': he is gone (macaw: rubbed out).
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 01, 2012, 07:47:55 AM
God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.
Okay, please, please, please, explain this one!!!
I sense this is the make or break point.
INTERESTING ASIDE. God wants all the fruit...the fruit of the Holy spirit of Love[God] has mercy longsuffering
and compassion as well of righteousness...the evil contrast 'tool' was designed to provide the resistence
for the developement of these fruits also. no suffering without evil..no mercy without tresspasses
I'm with vinebranch on this one. Quote from Rjohnson
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.
I don't think resurection works that way.
Quote from RJohnson
God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.
IMO,Sin isn't God's nature or being true to it.
God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean it was his purpose.
God knew Jesus would be mocked and whipped, spat on and mocked, but the purpose was the cross and death, not the other stuff.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 01, 2012, 10:05:21 PM
[Okay, please, please, please, explain this one!!!
I sense this is the make or break point.
I don't see it as make or break. I see it as deeper water. There are varying opinions on it, whether one believes in "free will" or not. Same with the satan discussion I alluded to earlier..and Judas...and.... :bigGrin:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 01, 2012, 10:19:27 PM
I'm with vinebranch on this one. Quote from Rjohnson
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.
I don't think resurection works that way.
Quote from RJohnson
God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.
IMO,Sin isn't God's nature or being true to it.
God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean it was his purpose.
God knew Jesus would be mocked and whipped, spat on and mocked, but the purpose was the cross and death, not the other stuff.Hi ded2daworld. Being turned to dust and being remade into the image of God IS THE RESURRECTION. Being remade into the image of God was a poor choice of words on my part. My point was this---"And we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly" 1Corinthians 15:49 KJV. Paul was making a reference to this verse---"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth" Genesis 5:3 KJV. All of us inherited death from Adam. In this sense, we are in the earthly likeness and image of Adam. This is why God will turn us back to dust(death) and conform us into the heavenly image of His Son Jesus Christ(Romans 8:29). Conformed is the word I should have used instead of remake. This is your comment "God knew Adam would sin but that doesn't mean it was his purpose". Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat the fruit? You are in effect saying it was not God's purpose for Judas to betray Jesus. Are you saying Adam and Judas could have chosen differently? If that's the case, then God's decrees and prophecies are made void by the will and choices of man. I'm saying God used Adam's disobedience as a learning tool for Adam. I'll see if I can simplify this a bit---A parent places a big bowl of candy, cookies and other sweets in the middle(midst) of the kitchen table in plain view of everyone. The parent tells the child if he or she eats anything from that bowl of sweets, they will be punished with a spanking. Most children naturally like sweets, so eventually that child will eat some of those sweets. Now the parent will rightly punish that child for disobedience, even though that child naturally liked sweets. Blessings to you.
Paul has come to my mind..and his word on 'I was once alive 'apart" from sin...then the commandment came..
and sin seduced me..and I died. thinking along the lines of being alive once' as maybe possessing
freedom at that time to choose..but being 'seduced" by the sin in our flesh..becoming captive to the
will of sin..then no longer being free to exercize our 'will'.[Grace came to Paul d/t him being blind/ignorant]
yes..the commandment came 'this is my son..listen to Him"
the 'choose' this day who you will serve....element.
.once you choose..you are no longer free..for whatever you serve..is your master.
Lord save me from 'willful' sin!! the good I desire to do..I do not..that which I desire not to do,I do....
shows that when we 'will' to serve God and do good..sin's law[captivity] continues with a will of it's own..
the scriptures speak of those taken captive of the will of the devil. are 'captives" free?
the whole world 'is blinded" [deceived"] of the evil one.......
can you make a free will choice....of your own will..if you make it in a decieved state. Is that legal? lol!!!
is there an 'age" of accountability? where you make an informed 'choice" of your own free will? am thinking
of the law covenant..with all it's rules and regulations spelled out.....subsequent curses and blessings...
THE SPIRIT IS WILLING......BUT THE FLESH IS WEAK!!!!
are we 'willing to believe the lie..if there is no love of truth in us? Is that how we become deceived?
do we 'compromise' in the temporal..to stay off inevitable suffering of death? why do we believe a lie?
thinking of little children...gullible man..should 'innocence' be naive? He tells His children..
be cautious as serpents! yet innocent as doves..he commends the dishonest manager because he
had asked shrewdly[keen-witted] what? sharp insite and clever=the spirit of the lord is sharper than
any two edged sword..able to divide/discern[keen]
the creature was subjected to 'vanity' not of it's own will..but by the will of He who subjected it........
has Adam been saved from willful sin by the higher will of the Father..for the express purpose of this
good/evil exercize as part of our eternal education? Is that why the woman was decieved..and the
Adam..though not decieved..also 'ate"? :dontknow:
Hi RJ-
I agree with you about us being(the new man) being resurrected. My point was, this mortal shall put on immortality which isn't Adam. One of the old testament prophets, Ezekiel, I believe was even called "son of dust"
And I still disagree that it was God's purpose for Adam to sin. Using a human example doesn't work cuz I'm talking about
total omniscience of knowing everything from beginning to end. The only way I can put it in human terms:
If my wife has a child, no matter how much I love it, care for it, nurture it, I know that if it lives long enough, (less than 5 years) It will sin. I didn't make it sin and my wife and I did not create it so that it WOULD sin. We just know that it will sin the same as we know that unless Jesus returns the newborn will eventually die. Again, we are not making it die and it is not our purpose in creating it so that it would die.
Being omniscient, knowing the first from the last, Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. "God sees what is to be and declares it as if it is. :Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 02, 2012, 12:55:51 AM
Hi RJ-
I agree with you about us being(the new man) being resurrected. My point was, this mortal shall put on immortality which isn't Adam. One of the old testament prophets, Ezekiel, I believe was even called "son of dust"
And I still disagree that it was God's purpose for Adam to sin. Using a human example doesn't work cuz I'm talking about
total omniscience of knowing everything from beginning to end. The only way I can put it in human terms:
If my wife has a child, no matter how much I love it, care for it, nurture it, I know that if it lives long enough, (less than 5 years) It will sin. I didn't make it sin and my wife and I did not create it so that it WOULD sin. We just know that it will sin the same as we know that unless Jesus returns the newborn will eventually die. Again, we are not making it die and it is not our purpose in creating it so that it would die.
Being omniscient, knowing the first from the last, Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. "God sees what is to be and declares it as if it is. :Peace2:
Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Quote from: VineBranch on December 01, 2012, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 01, 2012, 07:47:55 AM
God destroys or turns Adam back to dust so He can remake Adam(man) into His image.
So, re-made Adam doesn't have as soul? When he 'remakes' Adam, does he 're-breathe' the same soul (making him Adam) or a new soul (making him someone else) into him?
If Adam is destroyed how can he be 're-made': he is gone (macaw: rubbed out).
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 01, 2012, 07:47:55 AM
God did not force Adam to disobey Him, but it was God's purpose for Adam(man) to do so. Adam and Eve were simply being true to their God given nature.
Okay, please, please, please, explain this one!!!
I sense this is the make or break point.
Hi VineBranch. Being remade or remake was a poor choice of words on my part. I have edited my post to read conformed instead of remade or remake. Thanks for pointing that out! I will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Blessings to you.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 01, 2012, 10:05:21 PM
So, re-made Adam doesn't have as soul? When he 'remakes' Adam, does he 're-breathe' the same soul (making him Adam) or a new soul (making him someone else) into him?
If Adam is destroyed how can he be 're-made': he is gone (macaw: rubbed out).
First-made Adam didn't "have" a soul. According to Genesis 2:7, it was:
lifeless body + Breath of Life = living soul.
So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul. People need to get this distinction straight in their heads. If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.
So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified. If Adam was destroyed, and he certainly did return to the dust, rest assured that God can put the same exact atoms back together if He chooses to do so. I don't think God is bound by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. As God asked Job: "Is anything too difficult for Me?"
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 02, 2012, 01:40:18 AM
will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
That is the question around which this debate hinges. If I say no, it was not God's plan, God allowed Adam free-will, then UR is doomed. If I say yes, it was God's plan, then the whole debate about free-will is simply an exercise in logical construction. Now that I have become aware of the plan, I say yes, it was God's plan. But this means I cannot believe in free will, only in God limited freedoms.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 02, 2012, 02:43:56 AM
So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul. People need to get this distinction straight in their heads. If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.
So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified.
But surely God remaking Adam is not the same as resurrecting the body of Adam. The body would already have been made if it is resurrected, you can't remake what already is.
So, a soul can die? Therefore discussions involving immortal soul are moot?
What is SDA?
Quote from: VineBranch on December 02, 2012, 08:31:26 AM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 02, 2012, 01:40:18 AM
will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
That is the question around which this debate hinges. If I say no, it was not God's plan, God allowed Adam free-will, then UR is doomed. If I say yes, it was God's plan, then the whole debate about free-will is simply an exercise in logical construction. Now that I have become aware of the plan, I say yes, it was God's plan. But this means I cannot believe in free will, only in God limited freedoms.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 02, 2012, 02:43:56 AM
So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul. People need to get this distinction straight in their heads. If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.
So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified.
But surely God remaking Adam is not the same as resurrecting the body of Adam. The body would already have been made if it is resurrected, you can't remake what already is.
So, a soul can die? Therefore discussions involving immortal soul are moot?
What is SDA?
Hi VineBranch. I am enjoying your comments and questions. They are very thought provoking. When you say free will are you referring to free will as understood by Arminians or are you talking about libertarian free will? Here's something for you to consider. Yes man does have a will and man does make voluntary choices or decisions. Has it occured to you that man's voluntary choices or decisions are compatible with God's sovereignty and God's purpose for man? Has it occuured to you that God uses our free choices or decisions, good or bad to accomplish His purposes and desires for us? Blessings.
In the course of a full lifetime we gradually cycle through about 13 bodies. I don't think the reassembly of the same atoms that comprised our body of humiliation in this life for God to have something to raise into deathlessness is the point. The "embodiment" realm is the entirety of the physical universe. This will be glorified. We are stardust. Like the whirlpool in a river is energy elevated in complexity so are our lives with matter and energy flowing into and out of us that are for a time raised up in contradiction to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Scripture not only says, "There is only one body," it also says, "There is one spirit." All manifestations of spirit are out of and into one. This doesn't mean that wicked and holy spirits are the same. That would be nonsense. Surface distinctions are not depth. That they are spirit is how they are one, not what they are morally. Spirit is one substance and multi-dimensionally higher than the physical, which also is us. What we can endure of it now is in a promissory stage; then, "We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." Spirit is substantial, of God's "breath of lives;" and, body is substantial, made from red clay, that is "break-down-able into tiny bits," a good description in Hebrew of atoms as building blocks. "The spirit lusts against the flesh," and vice versa.
The soul is not an independent substance. It is "becoming" from the union of spirit and body. The soul can also be considered as either carnal, from devotion to the physical and it's lusts and senses, or the soul, agreeing with and walking around after the spirit, assists in subjecting the body to the spirit.
Spirit, soul, and body are not things we have, but are rather what we are, and they together make one. This tri-unity is contrary to various mystical traditions, such as ancient Grecian that early infected Christian philosophy, stultifying the developing institutional replacement for the Church and Hinduism that considers the body realm illusion.
_________________________
(More should be said here about the soul, but I'm way past my bedtime with something unusual, friends are coming by tomorrow!)
reF I so enjoyed and appreciated that post. :cloud9:
Have a wonderful time with your friends! And when they leave I would love to hear more about the soul. :)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 02, 2012, 02:43:56 AM
I don't think God is bound by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.
I am of the opinion that God knows where all atoms are at all times, because He maintains the universe. Did I write something to make you think I believe differently? If I did, I do apologise.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
When you say free will are you referring to free will as understood by Arminians or are you talking about libertarian free will?
I guess through out my life I have believed different aspects of each. I have found though that I am not an Arminianst because it assumes that God predetermined who would be saved on their actions and then acted accordingly. This would make man superior to God in that (through his future actions) he would have told God what to choose. I think that is blatantly impossible, and perhaps a tad arrogant.
At some point I think most of the discussions I have had about free-will hinge on the notion of moral responsibility (also, I think, the biggest reason for the notion of hell/hades in the traditional protestant 'Christian' tradition). I think this notion defeats the Libertarian point because it actually destroys the notion of moral responsibilty for me. How can we hold folk responsible for choices they didn't cause, if we don't hold them responsible for choices which were predetermined for them? So, to answer your question neither, really.
My notion of free-will is summed up in this question: can I, through my own ability, alienate myself from God. If God has structured the universe such that I can, then I have free-will; if God has structured the universe such that I can't, then I don't have free-will. In either case the free-will comes from God. Did He create me with the ability to walk away from Him, forever?
Had you asked me that question three months ago, I would have responded with a definite yes. Now... I'm starting the thing more along the lines of no.
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 02, 2012, 09:06:54 AM
Here's something for you to consider. Yes man does have a will and man does make voluntary choices or decisions. Has it occured to you that man's voluntary choices or decisions are compatible with God's sovereignty and God's purpose for man? Has it occuured to you that God uses our free choices or decisions, good or bad to accomplish His purposes and desires for us? Blessings.
Yes rj, Daily. Every time I tell my Father that I love Him, I know it is because He first loved me. Therefore had He not loved me first, I would be lost in a loveless world, and perhaps worse, with a loveless self. I also know the only reason I know He exists is because He told me. One doesn't find God, God finds them. The fact that I love God and know Him, and can talk to Him is at least predecated on His having found me, and created me to be found: I didn't even know I was lost. How could I unless He made me aware of it? His Spirit witnessed with my spirit and because of that once I was blind, but now I see. That couldn't have come about unless He made it so: unless He structured it to be so. How could I not believe that?
Spirit, soul, and body are not things we have, but are rather what we are
Thank you for the above statement.
As I grow in understanding of my body soul and spirit.
I grow in understanding of God's body soul and spirit.
I am one with my sisters and brothers .
The same substance that makes up my body makes up the body of all humanity
The same substance that makes up my soul makes up the soul of all of humanity.
The same substance that makes up my spirit makes up the spirit of all of humanity.
I am not so sure of the substance of God's BODY SOUL or SPIRIT.
I have an understanding that leaves a lot of room for more info.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 02, 2012, 08:31:26 AM
Quote from: rjohnson741 on December 02, 2012, 01:40:18 AM
will now ask you the same question that I asked Dead2daworld. Are you saying it was not God's purpose for Adam to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
That is the question around which this debate hinges. If I say no, it was not God's plan, God allowed Adam free-will, then UR is doomed. If I say yes, it was God's plan, then the whole debate about free-will is simply an exercise in logical construction. Now that I have become aware of the plan, I say yes, it was God's plan. But this means I cannot believe in free will, only in God limited freedoms.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 02, 2012, 02:43:56 AM
So, Adam didn't "have" a soul, he WAS a soul. People need to get this distinction straight in their heads. If I learned nothing else in the SDA church, it was this.
So, when God remakes Adam, He breathes or "re-breathes" the same Spirit into the resurrected body, and Adam again becomes a living soul, but this time glorified.
But surely God remaking Adam is not the same as resurrecting the body of Adam. The body would already have been made if it is resurrected, you can't remake what already is.
So, a soul can die? Therefore discussions involving immortal soul are moot?
What is SDA?
The idea that UR is doomed if God gave Adam a "free will"(I don't like the terminology because some people take that as a "will that can over-rule God") UR is "DOOMED" is not logical to me.
It misses the possibility that God's love and light of truth and fire of justice
is glorious enough to ultimately win through the rebellion of every soul."If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me".....
This one act of sacrificial love by the very creator of all things DISARMED EVRY ADVERSARY.
1 Cor 2:6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight
Col 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
IMO, The love of God will disarm evry adversary and "gather all into one in Christ"(Eph1:10), "reconcile all through the blood of His cross"(Col 1:16-21), and then he will return all things to the Father so that God will be ALL IN ALL(1 Cor 15:23-28).
God predestined this as the I AM- but IMO it is accomplished by the overwhelming glory of His being and love for His creation winning out over all rebellion, hatred and deception........... not the moment to moment choreography of all of our acts and thoughts.
awhole lot of room,Daj! the heavens can not contain Him..speaking of Father's substance....
and celestial body.
Did He create me with the ability to walk away from Him, forever?
This is just an opinion.
We can walk away from God forever ( forever being a duration of time that we
have been given the mental resources to understand).
God's resources for understanding forever are far greater than ours.
Eventually we will all freely surrender our free will to him.
Yes at the final Christmas party we will be re-gifting God.
I would also like to ask, how is the idea that God "programmed" the utter destruction and torture of millions of people throughout the ages any different than a God who could "program" a plan where most of His creation would be tormented forever or eternally destroyed?
We who believe in the "salvation of all" repeatedly use the argument that such a God would be a monster indeed, but I see no difference between the nature of these two gods. Only a difference in degree.
Included in all else it teaches, the story of the fall is about a choice.
"If you eat you shall die"
Included in all else it teaches, the story of Cain and Able is about a choice.
"Sin is crouching at the door and it would master you but you must master it".
Included in all else it teaches, the story of the cross of Christ is aboput a choice.
"Father could you please make this cup pass from me?.......Nevrtheless, let not MY WILL be done, let YOUR WILL be done."
"Father forgive them, they don't kno what they are doing".
The scripture says "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all"....and "God does not sin nor can He be tempted with sin"- yet Jesus was tempted in all ways like as we are.....He learned obedience through the things He suffered and exercised His will out of love for the Father. This is the new birth- a new will that is drawn by the love of God- no longer drawn by self and the world. Discipleship is about the maturing and manifestation of that new man, created in the image of Christ- progressively yielding more and more unto God.
So, what am I trying to say? :o)
What God has done runs much deeper, in my opinion, than Calvinists or Arminians, Preterists or Literalists of any persuasion or degree have fathomed. Nothing He has done is ever so simple as to be enveloped in our "black and white" reasonings and misguided logic chains. We simply don't have the breadth of perspective from which to offer these conclusions that often exceed the testimony of the scriptures and are built using the verses that fit our theology while excising the ones that don't.
"Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor
"Who has given to Him that He should repay
"For from Him and Through Him and To him are all things to whom be the glory forever.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 02, 2012, 08:11:04 PM
My notion of free-will is summed up in this question: can I, through my own ability, alienate myself from God. If God has structured the universe such that I can, then I have free-will; if God has structured the universe such that I can't, then I don't have free-will. In either case the free-will comes from God. Did He create me with the ability to walk away from Him, forever?
"Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition.." - Theopedia, An Encyclopedia of Christianity
This is good and pleases God our Savior, who will have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:3,4
Blessings and peace brother.
Once again, I believe we're required to make choices within parameters God sets, and that man does have "a" will. However, I also believe man choosing to use his will is still much different than having a will that's "free", totally without constraints or influence.
I'm in the process of looking at instances where "free will" is translated in a few scriptures in some translations. I'm wondering if the translation is accurate, or if certain translators added their own preconceived notions. Here's the actual word-for-word greek in a couple of instances where some translations have added "free will"; I do see man using his will in these scrips, his "self-preference", but not sure why it would be translated as "free" will. There may in fact be some instances of accurate translation (no expert, as best I can tell) of free will, if so, then we're back to "what does it mean, how free is free, total, limited, etc., etc." :). It's very interesting to think about and discuss, but I guess great minds have been disagreeing about it for oh, a couple thousand years or so :).
Greek word-for-word;
2 corinthians 8:3 that according to ability i may be witnessing and over ability self-preferences
2 corinthians 8:17 that the indeed beside-calling he-receives more diligent yet belonging self-preference he-out-came toward you
"FREE Will"
No matter how free your will is, you can't break the physical laws of the universe* or override God's will.
*Try flying to the moon without a suit or rocketship, try staying underwater for three days without air, try to just plain WILL your heart to stop. All is within God's parameters.
Better yet WILL yourself not to sin at all in thought, word, or deed for 3 days staright. Free will is an illusion.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 02, 2012, 11:21:26 PM
Free will is an illusion.
Yes, but it is a very attractive illusion...or is that delusion?? :dontknow: :dunno2: :dontknow:
Quote from: reFORMer on December 02, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
In the course of a full lifetime we gradually cycle through about 13 bodies.
Could you show me where that is written? Doctor Who only got 12.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 02, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
The soul is not an independent substance. ...Spirit, soul, and body are not things we have, but are rather what we are, and they together make one.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mar 8:36
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mar 8:37
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mar 12:30
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. Mar 14:34
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Joh 12:27
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat_10:28
I see a lot of possessive adjectives here.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 02, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
The soul can also be considered as either carnal, from devotion to the physical and it's lusts and senses, or the soul, agreeing with and walking around after the spirit, assists in subjecting the body to the spirit.
The soul can be seen as carnal, or the soul? I don't understand.
Quote from: jabcat on December 02, 2012, 10:22:21 PM
Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition.." - Theopedia, An Encyclopedia of Christianity
I dare say that's true. It would correspond to the Arminian mixed with Wesely and through the Methodists, and held by Bapist theologians. That's a fair mix of North American and Reformation advocates.
Am I allowed to call you brother? Being the new guy, I wouldn't want to take liberties or assume.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 12:54:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on December 02, 2012, 10:22:21 PM
Probably the most common definition of free will is the "ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition.." - Theopedia, An Encyclopedia of Christianity
I dare say that's true. It would correspond to the Arminian mixed with Wesely and through the Methodists, and held by Bapist theologians. That's a fair mix of North American and Reformation advocates.
Am I allowed to call you brother? Being the new guy, I wouldn't want to take liberties or assume.
No matter what else - if we've been reconciled to God through His Son, then I'd say we're brothers. :handshake:
Quote from: jabcat on December 03, 2012, 01:30:09 AM
No matter what else - if we've been reconciled to God through His Son, then I'd say we're brothers. :handshake:
+1
As Jesus the Christ is first among many brethren. :iagree:
We are all descended from Adam, We all have the same Father, we will one day all be family. I'd think we were brothers.
Quote from: jabcat on December 03, 2012, 01:30:09 AM
No matter what else - if we've been reconciled to God through His Son, then I'd say we're brothers. :handshake:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on December 03, 2012, 01:58:06 AM
+1
As Jesus the Christ is first among many brethren. :iagree:
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 03, 2012, 03:43:24 AM
We are all descended from Adam, We all have the same Father, we will one day all be family. I'd think we were brothers.
Thanks Guys. That means a lot to me.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 12:46:03 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on December 02, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
The soul is not an independent substance. ...Spirit, soul, and body are not things we have, but are rather what we are, and they together make one.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Mar 8:36
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Mar 8:37
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. Mar 12:30
And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch. Mar 14:34
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Joh 12:27
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat_10:28
I see a lot of possessive adjectives here.
I understand I can consider myself as larger than the sum of my parts. I can think of myself as with or without a hand. If I lose a hand I didn't lose myself. My hand is not me; yet, if my hand touches you, I touched you.
It seems, from 1 Co 15, the Adamic human is made a living soul. The soul, (Greek:
psyche) is predominant. But the new human, what is joined to the Lord, born of His Spirit, is predominantly spirit.
1 Corinthians 15
44-45, CLT
44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.
45 If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also,
The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:" the last Adam a vivifying Spirit.A much fuller Biblical treatment than any other source I've seen on spirit, soul, and body is in the 3 vol. work now published in one volume called
The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee (The Stream Publishers.) I have only read some of it.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 12:46:03 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on December 02, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
The soul can also be considered as either carnal, from devotion to the physical and it's lusts and senses, or the soul, agreeing with and walking around after the spirit, assists in subjecting the body to the spirit.
The soul can be seen as carnal, or the soul? I don't understand.
The soul that sins dies. To obtain a soul that remains we must destroy whatever thought, will, or emotion is disposed to the flesh against Jesus and the gospel. There is a spiritual soul.
I like the example of a light bulb representing the body. When electricity, which represents the spirit, flows in the filament, the result is light and heat, representing the soul. Even in this illustration, heat is not a substance and light is both wave (insubstantial energetic) and particle.
In the Greek language "spirit,"
pneuma, is BLOW-
effect, "soul,"
psyche is COOL-ic, and "body,"
soma, is BODY. The spirit (wind) blows on the water (what comprises 3/4 of the body) and the result is a cooling (soul.)
Romans 8
5-6, 9-10, CLT
5 For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit.
6 For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,
. . . . . . .
9 Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.
10 Now if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is life because of righteousness.
Quote from: reFORMer on December 03, 2012, 07:02:32 AM
The soul that sins dies. To obtain a soul that remains we must destroy whatever thought, will, or emotion is disposed to the flesh against Jesus and the gospel. There is a spiritual soul.
In your penultimate post you said: "The soul is not an independent substance. It is 'becoming' from the union of spirit and body". Don't these two ideas contradict each other?
How can a soul possibly sin if it is the union of spirit and body? How can there be a spiritual soul, if one of the those aspects is required to make the other? If half of the soul's parentage is by definition opposed to God (the flesh), how could we even talk about a soul resisting sin?
Could you please spend some time explaining the 13 bodies, I am dying to know how that works.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 01, 2012, 06:13:02 AM
Perspective means so much.
Left to chose? So sad indeed. When would God leave us to choose? He is a Father. He guides us, He woos us, He disciplines us for our own good- and he oversees our choices, leaving with every temptation a way of escape. What parent would leave their child to choose. Perhaps step back a bit with a watchful eye.... Perhaps for a particularly rebellious child to stay a little closer and to brandish the rod on occasion.
And what are we choosing. Love, grace, Him, one another :o)
God never leaves us- "For in Him we live and move and have our being"........altho he may hide his face from us for a moment in order to catch our attention, He will never forsake us.
If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have koinonea together and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
God is teaching us to walk with Him and we are growing to love Him more and more....and learning to choose love among ourselves over knowledge, power, the praises of men, etc.
"That you may be one even as I and the Father are one, the Father in me and I in the Father and you in me"
IMO, it is ALL.....God's sovereign will and our formative will as children of men wherever the dividing lines are......about union and communion- that God may be ALL IN ALL.
It is in such a covenant of love that we become fit ministers of reconciliation, finally knowing what spirit we are of.
Just thought I'd offer an OT verse and an old hymn that indicate much of what you're sharing in your post eaglesway... I told a very dear friend recently that in my case, imo means I am old!!!
1 Chron 4:10 Oh that Thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that Thine hand might be with me.
I DO NOT ASK TO CHOOSE MY PATH (Zelley, Songs of love and praise, 1894)
I do not ask to choose my path,
Lord, lead me in Thy way;
Inspire each thought, and prompt each word,
And make me a blessing today.
Refrain
Bless me, Lord, and make me a blessing;
I'll gladly Thy message convey.
Use me to help some poor, needy soul,
And make me a blessing today.
Around me, Lord, are sinful men,
Who scorn and disobey;
Use me to win them from their sins,
And make me a blessing today.
Refrain
To those who once Thy love have known,
But now are far astray;
Help me to win them back to Thee,
And make me a blessing today.
Refrain
Some saints of Thine are in distress,
And for deliv'rance pray;
Oh, let me go and help them, Lord,
And make me a blessing today.
Refrain
Whatever errand Thou hast, Lord,
Send me, and I'll obey.
Use me in any way THOU WILT,
And make me a blessing today.
I think the free will issue is best described as a time issue.
The Past When we look to the past we something that has already happened.
If it has already happened and we can't go back in time to change it.
What ever happened was either a fluke controlled by no ones will.
or it was the perfect will of God .
I choose to see thinks in the past as being the will of God
after all if it has happened and God I sovereign over all it must be according to his will.
The future
In the future my mind has the sane right to think about or imagine what will happen.
If I decide to pick up a cup of coffee I used my free will which God has given me
I can argue sanely that it was my free will in action and in demonstration.
The difference between now, and the past or future is a timing issue
The actual line between the imitate future and the immediate past is a
very very very thin line .
This line is so thin that only the sword of the Spirit can split it.
This is where Gods will and mans will meet.
It is through the Holy Spirit that we can distinguish between
the will of God and the will of Man.
I f and when my will and the will of God are the same.
for that moment or second or ½ hour or days .
I am a son of God made manifest.
But since that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Just to throw one more spice into this soup bowl of opinions:
Job 12:10 - Every animal that lives and everyone who breathes— they are all under God's power.
I saw The Brothers in Arm.
I knew I was supposed to look at the hole group.
I took a quick glance at one of the brothers.
I noticed he had a scar
I regained my focus.
When I looked at The Brothers in Arms.
I noticed what looked like a scar.
When All the Brothers Were in Arms .
The scar reminded me of another scar.
I scar I had never really seen.
The scars started to look like the scars of my LORD.
This is a call to All Brothers on Arm
Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 07:47:09 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on December 03, 2012, 07:02:32 AM
The soul that sins dies. To obtain a soul that remains we must destroy whatever thought, will, or emotion is disposed to the flesh against Jesus and the gospel. There is a spiritual soul.
Scripture says, "The soul that sins dies." Inability to think right or to recognize truth, jerked around by deceptive and ever changing emotions, unable to make a commitment...these are some common aspects of "psychical," that is, soul death. Jesus says, "For whosoever may be wanting to save his soul will be destroying it, yet whoever shall be destroying his soul on account of Me and of the evangel will be obtaining it." (Mark 8
35, CLT) Defining what more inward workings of the soul identifies Jesus' disciples, this was an explanation and expansion on what He had just said, "...If anyone is wanting to come after Me, let him renounce himself and pick up his cross and follow Me." (vs., 34)
Jesus began His public ministry with a message of repentance. "Jesus came into Galilee, heralding the evangel of the kingdom of God, saying that "Fulfilled is the era, and near is the kingdom of God! Repent, and believe in the evangel!" (Mark 1
14-15, CLT) Though commonly translated "repentance," the Greek word is actually a MIND word. The English "repent" comes from the Sanscrit
pu from which we also get our word "pure." It is difficult to disassociate the idea "to purge" or "make clean" from repent. We've been taught what repentance means is to (mentally) admit sin is bad, be (emotionally) sorry for sin and to (willfully) turn away from sin. Thus we are purified. The various functions of soul in general are not indicated by the Greek
metanoia. This is about the source of consciousness. It literally means to "change-MIND," or, "after-MIND," Whatever awareness of ourselves, who we are, where we are, what we do is known initially by what our family, our school, our culture or religion has told us. And, "As a human thinks in his heart, so is he." We find ourselves with a certain self-consciousness God's illumination makes to be of a previous nature or self. Because of what His showing up means to us we have a mind after our former knowing, an "after-mind." Our change puts us in accordance with God's rule.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 07:47:09 AM
In your penultimate post you said: "The soul is not an independent substance. It is 'becoming' from the union of spirit and body". Don't these two ideas contradict each other?
As previously explained, the breath or spirit of God is substance and the body made of physical material is substantial. For Adam, the spirit breathed into the body produced a soul.
Nephesh (Hebrew) or
psyche (Greek,) the "soul" is the result of these two substances interacting and is not in itself a substance. Beyond my light from electricity in a bulb analogy, or even the Greek words for spirit, soul, and body, another example is God. The Father is unmanifest, unseen. "The only begotten Son in the bosom of the Father has explained Him." (John 1
18.) Christ is "the image of the invisible God." (Colossians 1
15) What produces "Christ," that is, "The Anointed," is the Holy Spirit, Who is "The Anointing." The manifestation of the invisible God is God the Son which is produced by God the Spirit. In this the Father may be compared to the soul. We know from Psalm 91
1 that the Father is El-Elyon and the mother is El-Shaddai. From elsewhere we know Jesus is the incarnation of IEUE.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 07:47:09 AM
How can a soul possibly sin if it is the union of spirit and body? How can there be a spiritual soul, if one of the those aspects is required to make the other? If half of the soul's parentage is by definition opposed to God (the flesh), how could we even talk about a soul resisting sin?
Jesus has for ever sanctified incarnation. Not only was he made flesh, we have His words after resurrecting immortal. "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24
39, KJV) So also the earliest form of the Apostles' Creed has faith in "The resurrection of the flesh" as a non-negotiable basic to identify as a genuine Christian.
Yet, "To be given over to the flesh is death but to be given over to the spirit is life and peace." (Romans 8
6) The hierarchy of Adam's trinity of personality has soul primary. "The new man
homo novae is the Lord from heaven." This "enlivening spirit" (1 Corinthians 15) is foremost over the three-fold hierarchy of the second man, it being born again. The first possible resurrection is that of the spirit when we are born from above.
Quote from: VineBranch on December 03, 2012, 07:47:09 AM
Could you please spend some time explaining the 13 bodies, I am dying to know how that works.
Every day what is it? more than 2 1/2 million cells? die off and are replaced. The lining of the stomach and the gastrointestinal tract is replaced about every 2 weeks. While it is a gradual process, through the course of a lifetime the average person cycles through about 13 bodies. These are not separate individual bodies, as I say, it is a gradual process, slower with bone than softer tissues. So, you could probably say you've become a completely other physical entity than you were a decade ago. This truth affects what we can understand about the resurrection. There is a flow of material into us and out from us, like God. The material its self is from the stars. This succession of copies in itself is a kind of resurrection. When harpazo-ed, seized, possessed by God, the process will no more be degenerative, if it even continues. We also have a daily resurrection as we awake from sleep. These are all opportunities for exercising faith for healing, prolonged life and our transformation into the image of God as must happen. "For this mortal must put on the immortal."
According to the medical literature, it is approx. 7 years. Our thoughts aren't material so our thinking doesn't change :laugh:
Quote from: reFORMer on December 08, 2012, 10:13:17 AM
Every day what is it? more than 2 1/2 million cells? die off and are replaced. The lining of the stomach and the esophagus is replaced about every 2 weeks. While it is a gradual process, through the course of a lifetime the average person cycles through about 13 bodies.
Ah, thanks. We go throught the equivalent of 13 bodies, not that we actually have 13 different bodies: got it.
Quote from: ded2daworld on December 08, 2012, 02:54:27 PM
According to the medical literature, it is approx. 7 years. Our thoughts aren't material so our thinking doesn't change :laugh:
That's the same number we were told ded. But I thought it was that we sloughed off all our skin cells in a seven year cycle.
Like reformer said, every cell has a different life span, some are renewed in a few hours, the longest in the bone can take up to seven years. We have seven layers of skin. The top layer gets worn out, rubbed off, burnt, otherwise used up and the 2 nd layer becomes the first. That's the degree of burns thing. First degree is the top layer, 2 nd degree is the next layer, third degree is the next layer. If the top three layers are burned off on more than 80-85% of the body, the person can't survive.
...Unless they are in hell of course, there, God not only burns you, but keeps you alive so that you can enjoy the torture.
Nice God -but don't cross him. :laugh: I'm glad God isn't really like that at all. :dsunny:
what is IEUE?
the other day I came across something in my research. Enoch and Elijah being 'taken' by God is the same word
'seized" Really enjoying this thread..thanks
Quote from: sheila on December 09, 2012, 05:20:42 AM
what is IEUE?
The Divine name, The Tetragammatron, is a 4 letter word. Hebrew letters are:
Yod Heh Vav Hey, represented as JHVH (all consonants) or, as A.E. Knoch discovered, IEUE (all vowels) and pronounced "Yahweh." Some have been viciously divisive over various ways you can use your nose, mouth, tongue and throat to say this word. I'm sure this is displeasing to God. The principle way God's name is used in vain is to claim to be a believer in Him without agreeing to His standards of behavior. The King James Version usually represents it with all capital letters as LORD. In the 1901 American Standard Version the made up name Jehovah was used. This was created by combining the vowels from the word the KJV translates as God, which is Elohim, with the consonants JHVH. This name of Yahweh, 4 letters in the original, occurs over 7,000 times in the Hebrew scripture.
___________________________
The Hebrew, Yeshuah, meaning "Salvation of Yah," is the name Englishmen call Jesus. From the following scriptures it is revealed that Jesus is the incarnation of Yahweh:
Exd 15:2
The LORD [Yahweh] [is] my strength and song, and he
is become my salvation [Yeshuah]: he [is] my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
Psa 118:14
The LORD [Yahweh] [is] my strength and song, and
is become my salvation [Yeshuah].
Psa 118:21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and
art become my salvation.
Isa 12:2 Behold, God [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for
the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song; he
also is become my salvation.
___________________________
Books have been written on the names of God. I'm not here to compete.
(Ex 15:2)
(Psa 118:14)
(Isa 12:2) song hâyâh Y'shû‛âh <========= The new song?
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
(Col 1:15-20)
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
(Col 2:9-10)
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'" From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
(Joh 1:14-16)
In the Father's fulness He became head of evry power and authority. From His fulness have we all received and are becoming Joint heirs.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death.
Y'shû‛âh is his favorite name for himself. THAT is how important we are to him.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
---Phil 2
Psalm 8 - "O LORD, our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth."
Glory that is a very dynamic verse.
Full of live. Cheers Molly
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
---Rev 5:9
hâyâh Y'shû‛âh !
I AM Salvation!
..say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
--Ex 3:14
Isa 12:2 Behold, God [is] my salvation
Behold, El Y'shû‛âh
Behold, the God of Salvation
Behold, Lord Jesus
I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song,
hâyâh Y'shû‛âh !
Why not just say The Lord? Rom 12:8 or he who is exhorting--`In the exhortation!' he who is sharing--`In simplicity!' he who is leading--`In diligence?' he who is doing kindness--`In cheerfulness.'
I am committed to the belief we make choices that matter and we are judged by the choices we make. I perceive this as reality and am very frustrated about it at times due to the abundance of possibilities and my own inadequacy. I recognize the will to be the foremost aspect of the soul. The power of volition, to commit to a position and continue in it regardless of later developments, to choose to love when it no longer makes any sense and I no longer feel like it: this is what makes marriage a covenant. I find solace and rest from the fact of God's overriding intentions. He has graciously revealed Himself as, The Savior of All." He has decided to overcome evil with good.
Yet, an "uninfluenced choice" is a definition of freewill, and it seems a kind of oxymoron. Not only is the commitment to something without being affected by anything behind many people's "freewill" doctrine, there must also be added the belief that the less influenced we are by anything the greater is our moral excellence. Both of these conditions of soul are much worse than their opposites.
To make a choice without being impressed of any difference between options is either foolishness or the choice is regarding trivia. To be externally sheltered from impressions of relative value and to internally regard everything as irrelevant defines a horrible state of mind, one that is ignorant, spoiled, and without authority, rather than a virtuous man.
Intrinsically and extrinsically: God is the Significance of All Expression. We should be persuaded by what is behind the appearances of all things what these things are worth. As well, things are in a world of relatedness to other things. God is the Measure of All Relationship. God is the Standard of All Measure. God's emanations as a constant define the meaning of things. As Jesus' disciples, we should be impressed and aroused by what we perceive as important.
God is the Significance of All Expression
Is it possible for man to express the significance of God?
We should be persuaded by what is behind the appearances of all things,
what these things are worth.
Jesus is behind the appearance of all things. The value of such things
will be measured and weight there value cashed in to the glory of the son,
and Bride is bought.
. God is the Measure of All Relationship.
May they all be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I am in You. May they also be one in Us, so the world may believe You sent Me.
Daj,
IMO, you just tacked on an unrelated quote from John chap 17 to make
the previous new age stuff you said sound more scriptural. How about a
scriptural quote that backs up the signifigance and appearance stuff? :Peace2:
Ded2....I don't think Reformer is new age at all. Daj's post was a restating of Reformers post..with a few comments
added. In response to Reformer's post . Is it possible for man to express the signifigance of God?
I think even the whole creation is His expression..and especially man in His image..
what's going on with you,Brother?
i, personally don't know what reformer said?
John 1 In the beginning was the Word..and the Word was with God,and the Word was God. He was with God
in the beginning. Through Him all things were made,without him nothing was made....
« Reply #36 on: Today at 07:15:26 AM »
Quote
"But by that idea, how can anyone understand any term? I am giving very clear definitions of how I view the term, and it is in common with how thousands of others view it and have viewed it for millenia(not to say I am correct or they were, just to say, it is common for the opposing view to present the other view as ridiculous or untenable or without merit or incomprehensible). The same suppositions can be made of the term "sovereignty" which to some people means God controls every thought and action of every being from the beginning to the end, but to others simply means God will cause all things to work together to accomplish His ultimate plan and purpose. Unless we can discuss those shades of meaning and balance the scales of understanding between extreme views then we are just writing "position papers" to one another- IMO, a complete waste of time." EW
SOVEREIGN 1. Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.
I believe the Lord God is SOVEREIGN.
Supreme In the universe, God only is the supreme ruler and judge. His commands are supreme, and binding on all his creatures. Highest, greatest or most excellent;
I believe that the Lord God is SUPREME
CONTROL 2. To check; to restrain; to govern. Power; authority; government; command.
I believe that the Lord God is in CONTROL.
CAUSE Cause is a substance exerting its power into act, to make a thing begin to be. To produce; to bring into existence.
I believe the Lord God is the CAUSE of ALL.
I do not see a difference between being the "cause" of all things and being in "control" of all things.
Re: Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28
« Reply #33 on: Today at 06:05:45 AM »
"It seems to me at some point, since I was only responding to Micah's posts on the "marionette" philosophy of predestination and the creation of evil, that we need to realize that it is glorious that people of all doctrinal persuasio begin to believ in UR, as I do, a proponent of a kind of modified Arminianism- or as some of you do, as Preterists, and modified Calvinists, or WHATEVER :o)
Where is Micah proposing as "marionette" philosophy of predestination?
"It also astounds me that people can speak of this marionette predestination view over and over but as soon as someone uses the term "free will" it sets of a chain reaction, which I think is evidence of a predisposition towards a certain view as if it were PART AND PARCEL WITH UR- which, in my opinion, it is not :o)"
What astounds me is when people want God to be God but won't let God be God; EITHER God started this whole creation and put a symbol of good and evil in full view with an expectation, with full knowledge of how ALL things will work out, or He did not.
As for me, though it has not been given me all the understanding, I stand with the Lord God, who from the very beginning(where ever that is) is
SOVEREIGN...in CONTROL..and is the CAUSE of ALL THINGS. Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. I believe HE can handle all the responsibility and takes full credit for what ever happens in HIS creation.
as for the will..it's freedoms..it's restrictions.. it will never supercede the Sovereignty of God over the whole
creation. He is a God of 'ORDER" ..therefore there will always be limitations of 'freewill'. What will be the
ultimate 'limiting factor' of the Glorious Freedom of the Sons of God? Love......love restrains what
causes chaos..Love is freely given and expressed..and love freely restrains what needs be.
as far as our free will and choices during this exercize of good and evil...I liken it to an individual
education plan..and God the teacher. He will direct His creatures..teach and lead..through various
exercize/lesson plans. It has l not been a 'cookie cutter' type educational system.God loves diversity.
I can't help but think that His educating of His children..will show forth their various strengths and weaknesses.
for them to learn and grow from. Being as He is making man in His image and likeness...He has an
'idea' as to how He shall go about it..I beleive.. I think 'kicking against the pricks" we will always find
a hard thing.Pricks of conscience is hard to bear
Shepherd,Father..are terms of He that leads...... Headship
LIMIT The thing which bounds; restraint. To bound; to set bounds to. To confine within certain bounds; to circumscribe; to restrain.
FREE Being at liberty; not being under necessity or restraint[/u], physical or moral; a word of general application to the body, the will or mind, and to corporations.
Okay I got it man has LIMITED (bounds, restraint, confined) FREE ( not being under necessity or restraint, will. It don't ad up to me. :sigh:
Re: Isa. 14 and Ezk. 28
« Reply #34 on: Today at 06:20:25 AM »
Quote
"For instance, James says "God is not tempted by evil, nor does He tempt any man with evil, but everyman is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed. Lust conceives sin, sin conceives death."
Did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve.?Did he tell the adversary to tempt them? Would this not be the greatest hypocrisy in the universe to tell Satan to tempt someone then deny that you ever tempted anyone? Perhaps there is something more to the mystery than a simple black or white doctrine from either perspective?
Was James a fool? Is James not scriptural? Was James decieved? Or was James illuminating "AN ASPECT" of a deep mystery not so simply rendered by man's wisdom?
I think these are honest questions asked by many. The TEMPTATION to force people into our simple answers(Arminian, Calvinist, Preterist, Free Will, Sovereign, Whatever, etc) often obscure ELEMENTS OF TRUTH that God wants all sides to receive :o)"
"Did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve.?"
No, he did not. That is silly, what a question, you just quoted James, "nor does He tempt any man with evil..." But the Lord God did put the T of K of G and E to test the man He formed to see if
it's purpose would be served. The man had knowledge, but man had nothing to compare that knowledge to, the man was to learn and he did for the Lord God said Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil; .......and that's where man is today, having the knowledge of good and evil.
"Did he tell the adversary to tempt them?"
The serpent/adversary was created from the beginning (Jo. 8:44) for the very purpose of deceiving man.
"Would this not be the greatest hypocrisy in the universe to tell Satan to tempt someone then deny that you ever tempted anyone? " If you can ask that question I don't know what to say.
"Or was James illuminating "AN ASPECT" of a deep mystery not so simply rendered by man's wisdom?" Man's wisdom is a dull blade.
James was not a fool. James is scriptural. James was not deceived.
the scriptures are 'chocked full' of positive and negative expierences for us to learn by and serve as examples.
real life expierences of men and women. I have seen something done[Samson] like a heart that is in
apparent opposition[choice of wife] that was in the plan of God for His purpose. I have seen men
with wrecked lives[Job] for God's purpose....I have seen Pharoah's heart hardened for God's purpose.
I have seen another Pharoah's heart make Joseph secound in command. Who is this..that holds
control over men's hearts for His own purpose. "the King's heart is in the hand of the Lord" Prvrbs 21;1
WHO IS THIS...THAT MOVES NEGATIVE/POSITIVE ABOUT AS UPON A CHESSBOARD IN THIS GOOD?EVIL
EXERCIZE?
WHO IS THIS THAT FORMS MAN IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS?
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 05, 2013, 03:59:14 PM
Daj,
IMO, you just tacked on an unrelated quote from John chap 17 to make
the previous new age stuff you said sound more scriptural. How about a
scriptural quote that backs up the signifigance and appearance stuff? :Peace2:
I said Jesus is the signifigance of the appearance of all things.
Ded if you need me to find you a scriptural quote.
I can
But it would be better for you to act like a Berrian look for your self.
Try in the begining was the word.
As for new age well I don't know what that means unless it means you are mean.
Quote from: sheila on January 05, 2013, 06:54:06 PM
the scriptures are 'chocked full' of positive and negative expierences for us to learn by and serve as examples.
real life expierences of men and women. I have seen something done[Samson] like a heart that is in
apparent opposition[choice of wife] that was in the plan of God for His purpose. I have seen men
with wrecked lives[Job] for God's purpose....I have seen Pharoah's heart hardened for God's purpose.
I have seen another Pharoah's heart make Joseph secound in command. Who is this..that holds
control over men's hearts for His own purpose. "the King's heart is in the hand of the Lord" Prvrbs 21;1
WHO IS THIS...THAT MOVES NEGATIVE/POSITIVE ABOUT AS UPON A CHESSBOARD IN THIS GOOD?EVIL
EXERCIZE?
WHO IS THIS THAT FORMS MAN IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS?
Yes, amen Sheila.
I'd like to share a personal expierence that God took me through in my life. As it pertains to my will..
and His..being at variance. I was adminstrator/nurse at an adult day care in a small town.
We had around 20 clients that we rendered services to.
Well,this being a senior center..at lunch many of the senior citizens would come in to eat,that were not
in my daycare.Just general public coming in. There was this man...a nervous high strung fastidious guy....
that literally rubbed me the wrong way. He drove me nuts!! Irritated me to no-end. Well guess what?
I got word he was to be a client..that meant I would have to put up with him 40 hours a week. :eek:
As little as I could have dealings with him..that is what I did[I think he felt the same way about me]
Well, over the next few weeks and months..something wonderful happened. I come to love that man
with a love that I would never had thought possible..and he come to love me dearly,too.
Now, it was not MY WILL TO LOVE THIS MAN..NOR HIS TO LOVE ME.....But IT WAS GOD'S WILL....
..
Because of this expierence He took me through..when I read the ten commandments..and the
Royal Law of Love God with your whole heart mind and body..and your brother as yourself...I KNOW
THAT VERY THING IS WHAT HE IS FORMING AND WILL FORM IN ALL US..WHETHER WE WILL IT OR NOT
For..WHEN YOU GET DOWN TO THE HEART/TRUTH OF THE MATTER....THIS IS WHERE GOD LIVES
Love found,
is a true discovery of the changes the Holy Spirit has been making in our hearts.
New Loves are the result of a refreshing walk with the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit was is such a mystery .I called him comforter. I no longer call
him Mr eeee I call him Mr.Grace.
I've come to the conclusion..that if God should let us have a will contrary to His own...it is for the
express purpose to allow Him to change it... To show us a better way..a higher way....
Eventually God is going to choose you..and you are going to choose God. And your going to be
very very happy with your choice :laughing7:
Isaaih 57;17 I was enraged with his sinful greed, I punished him and hid my face in anger,
yet he kept on in his willfull ways. I have seen his ways..BUT I WILL HEAL HIM: I WILL GUIDE
HIM AND RESTORE COMFORT TO HIM,CREATING PRAISE ON THE LIPS OF THE MOURNERS
IN ISRAEL. Peace,peace to those far and near,says the Lord..'AND I WILL HEAL THEM"
Quote from: sheila on January 05, 2013, 04:49:32 PM
Ded2....I don't think Reformer is new age at all. Daj's post was a restating of Reformers post..with a few comments
added. In response to Reformer's post . Is it possible for man to express the signifigance of God?
I think even the whole creation is His expression..and especially man in His image..
what's going on with you,Brother?
Ded 2 this is the last time I' am going to ask you
Would you please show me specifically what sentence or what word or idea I have posted here that you in your opinion have called
Unscriptural
Can't be backed up by scripture
New Age
Makes no sense
and so on.
I know that this is an opinion sharing site.
In my opinion you do the office of Moderator a disservice when you
say a post is unscriptural or you give it a derogatory label.
Then not respond to the inquiry of said post.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 06, 2013, 12:31:36 AM
QuoteDed 2 this is the last time I' am going to ask you
Would you please show me specifically what sentence or what word or idea I have posted here that you in your opinion have called
Unscriptural
Can't be backed up by scripture
New Age
Makes no sense
and so on.
I know that this is an opinion sharing site.
In my opinion you do the office of Moderator a disservice when you
say a post is unscriptural or you give it a derogatory label.
Then not respond to the inquiry of said post.
Sounds like a familiar problem. Disagree with a couple of these so-called moderators & they call you names like "immature", "condescending", & a couple other of their favorite quips. Check some of Eagleway's strident language & you'll get a better picture of it all being in the mind of the beholder who look for the sliver in one poster's eye but unable to tend to the 2 x 4 in their own.......
Sorry daj, I don't sit at the computer all day and just got back online.
I stated it was my opinion which I'm entitled to.
All I want to know is where in the Bible do you see Jesus or God
is "the signifigance of the appearance" of all things.
I was a new ager for awhile and that phrase sounds like one of the
purposely obfuscating phrases they use. Mainly, I'm saying I don't understand
what you mean by that phrase. :dontknow:
God is creater of everything so what IS the significance of the appearance?
and I've been a Berean long enough 40+ years to know that there is nothing like
the phrase "the signifigance of appearance" in any of the 15+ versions I've read through. :Peace2:
I understand the fear of New Age religion ded. And I used to think the same as you. Then God revealed to myself and others many truths that sound very new age. (I am NOT saying that we should embrace New Age religion.) I am just saying that we shouldn't be too quick to reject something just because it sounds too "new age". I bet the Pharisees and others of Jesus' time made the same mistakes. (And hence ultimately rejected Him.)
I'm only speaking from experience and humiliation. :mblush:
Quote from: sheila on January 05, 2013, 05:25:55 PM
John 1 In the beginning was the Word..and the Word was with God,and the Word was God. He was with God
in the beginning. Through Him all things were made,without him nothing was made....
Amen! :dsunny:
Sheila, it sounds like you got a hold of something, no, you were given to know something GOOD! :dsunny:
Quote from: Paul L on January 06, 2013, 01:25:08 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 06, 2013, 12:31:36 AM
QuoteDed 2 this is the last time I' am going to ask you
Would you please show me specifically what sentence or what word or idea I have posted here that you in your opinion have called
Unscriptural
Can't be backed up by scripture
New Age
Makes no sense
and so on.
I know that this is an opinion sharing site.
In my opinion you do the office of Moderator a disservice when you
say a post is unscriptural or you give it a derogatory label.
Then not respond to the inquiry of said post.
Sounds like a familiar problem. Disagree with a couple of these so-called moderators & they call you names like "immature", "condescending", & a couple other of their favorite quips. Check some of Eagleway's strident language & you'll get a better picture of it all being in the mind of the beholder who look for the sliver in one poster's eye but unable to tend to the 2 x 4 in their own.......
Paul L, (and after re-reading, dajomaco's post to a
much lesser extent); publicly criticizing moderation is a warnable and bannable offense, Discussion of issues of a topic is one thing, including disagreeing with a moderator's post or POV when it's their individual opinion. But allowing direct public criticism of moderators/moderation is just welcoming havoc, which won't be allowed.
If a moderator has indeed
broken forum guidelines, we are required to make an apology. If such an offense has occurred, I haven't seen it, so please bring it to our attention BY
PM - NOT on the boards. If one of the moderators has indeed called you names Paul, point it out specifically, again, by PM. Although it can admittedly be a fine line, expressing an opinion about a topic or situation is different than directly calling someone names, and again, I may have missed it, but I haven't seen that occur.
I know there's been some recent tension and disagreement, but please refrain from future public criticism of moderation, and bring any further such issues to PM. That would preferably include all currently active mods - myself, ded, eaglesway, and reFORMer. There we can attempt a resolution, or at least an agreement/understanding. Thanks.
*One last point. Often, when there's tension, one only has to look at our own tone and attitude of our own posts, to get an idea of at least
part of what may have contributed to the situation to begin with. In essence, even if another person perhaps could have handled things better themselves, if we're honest and able to see it, we often earn our own problems. :2c:
Regardless, any further conversation about this to PM please.
Hey, i take all the correction or reproof in the stride of THE WALK. As far as I know we are all in puberty at this point and learning. I do not always agree with the moderators, but they are the moderators and a job i surly do not covet.
As long as i have been posting on this forum all the moderators have been pretty fair, heck i knew(in a manner of speaking) some who were not moderators a year ago and now are...and there is no envy on my part. I like, love and welcome them all. :dsunny: :2c: :thumbsup: :laugh:
Thank you micah. :angelharp:
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger. Proverbs 15:1
Quote from: jabcat on January 06, 2013, 06:05:14 AM
Quote from: Paul L on January 06, 2013, 01:25:08 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 06, 2013, 12:31:36 AM
QuoteDed 2 this is the last time I' am going to ask you
Would you please show me specifically what sentence or what word or idea I have posted here that you in your opinion have called
Unscriptural
Can't be backed up by scripture
New Age
Makes no sense
and so on.
I know that this is an opinion sharing site.
In my opinion you do the office of Moderator a disservice when you
say a post is unscriptural or you give it a derogatory label.
Then not respond to the inquiry of said post.
Sounds like a familiar problem. Disagree with a couple of these so-called moderators & they call you names like "immature", "condescending", & a couple other of their favorite quips. Check some of Eagleway's strident language & you'll get a better picture of it all being in the mind of the beholder who look for the sliver in one poster's eye but unable to tend to the 2 x 4 in their own.......
Paul L. and dajomaco. In the forum expectations, which is required reading/agreement prior to making first post, it states that publicly criticizing moderation is a warnable and bannable offense.
If a moderator has indeed broken forum guidelines, we are required to make an apology. If such an offense has occurred, I haven't seen it, so please bring it to our attention BY PM - NOT on the boards. If one of the moderators has indeed called you names Paul, point it out specifically, again, by PM. Although it can admittedly be a fine line, expressing an opinion about a topic or situation is different than directly calling someone names, and again, I may have missed it, but I haven't seen that occur.
I know there's been some recent tension and disagreement, but please refrain from future public criticism of moderation, and bring any further such issues to PM. That would preferably include all currently active mods - myself, ded, eaglesway, and reFORMer. There we can attempt a resolution, or at least an agreement/understanding. Thanks.
*One last point. Often, when there's tension, one only has to look at their own tone and attitude of their own posts, to get an idea of at least part of what may have contributed to the situation to begin with. In essence, even if another person perhaps could have handled things better themselves, if we're honest and able to see it, we often earn our own problems. :2c:
Regardless, any further conversation about this to PM please.
Enough said
well said
:laughing7:
dajo, please see my edit. I re-read your post and I believe it is much less direct criticism/insult of moderation than originally perceived. Still, thanks for the kind reply. But seriously, if there's anything you need to, take it to PM and we'll talk about it. thanks.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 05, 2013, 08:34:19 AM
Intrinsically and extrinsically: God is the Significance of All Expression. We should be persuaded by what is behind the appearances of all things what these things are worth. As well, things are in a world of relatedness to other things. God is the Measure of All Relationship. God is the Standard of All Measure. God's emanations as a constant define the meaning of things. As Jesus' disciples, we should be impressed and aroused by what we perceive as important.
Descriptive titles of God
to meditate on Him and
to worship Him,
Who and What He is:
__________________________
The Substance of All Form
The Measure of All Relationship
The Standard of All Measure
The Significance of All Expression
The Placer of All Location
The Limits of All Duration
The Manner of All Change
The Point to All ProgressThe first expression, "The Substance of All Form," was a title given to a message by Peter Demetris http://www.lightofthecity.org/ that affected me quite a bit. Around that time I sometimes used a copy from Cruden's Concordance of a page of "Names and Titles of Our Lord Jesus Christ" from scripture to worship the Lord. I do believe God gave to me the other Descriptions of Himself to meditate on Him and worship Him.
From it being noticed by you I was impelled to look up and offer you the following title:
Innerland by Eberhard Arnold of the Bruderhof (Plough Publishing House)
http://www.plough.com/en/ebooks/i/innerland
One of the things I believe God spoke to me (in perhaps the same time period) that was very "new age-ish" was, "All the love I've ever known was just God wearing different faces." Several times as I meditated on it I was overcome by loss of self consciousness and personal identity and by flowing forth into a brightness of Divine "Otherness" that is not what we call "self-centered." (This is a big topic.) I quickly reacted with fear and, regrettably, I fought Him to retain my sense of self, of selfish interest, or, self knowledge, rather than lay it down and be received by Him.
Having been down with the flu.... I missed a couple of posts. If I offend someone I am open to correction- if the offence is deemed significant by the other moderators. The only times that I kno of that I have anything to say to somone outside of scripture based discussions, is when they teach as fact subject matter that is "open to discussion" and do so without addressing the scriptures concerning the subject matter. As Micah said earlier, we are all youngsters of a sort on here= no one has the "whole counsel of God"- most certainly not me.
When our POVs are in some measure of conflict, we should be able to discuss them without personal offence.
However, as moderators we must address issues of tone and conduct at times. I don't think any of us is perfect at it- most certainly not me :o)
Since I have some views that may be in the minority on the board I expect to catch a certain amount of heat for my posts- and I am not offended, -I usually my intentions are to hold some "middle ground" between the extremes :o)
My reasons for this are as follows:
People come to this site from diverse theological backgrounds.
We want them to feel welcome to investigate "the salvation of all", the "restoration of all things" and "ultimate universal reconciliation" without being made to face an onslaught about their secondary(as far as this site is concerned) beliefs.
In My Opinion, the glory of God is so wonderful and "mighty in love", that He is gathering all things together into one in Christ because Jesus is lifted up, and as soon as anyone sees Him, and the glory of His love, their "snakebite" (sin and death) is healed. Everyone will see Him, each in his own order.
We may disagree about the means, the method or the order- it is a small thing. We all praise HIM for the fact that He makes all things work according to the counsel of His will- in the end ALL will be redeemed.
Tentmaker is an ultimate reconciliation site, declaring the "Victorious Gospel". It is not a site for strident debates over other issues- altho all those issues may be addressed in "lively discussion".
It is also not a site where we set up "mini-tents" for promoting our peculiar, individual revelations- altho we can present them for "discernmemt by the body" if we like (as opposed to "declaring them as absolute truth").
Daj,
I apologise for not noting what Reformer had said and that you merely repeated.
Reformer gave me the answer which I was fairly certain of.
God has many names and titles (About 63 are recorded in the Bible)
Those listed by reformer MAY BE true, But, IMO,
are in any scripture translations I have read.
There are entire books out on the names and titles of God found in the Bible.
It's an very interesting subject and, as Reformer said, useful in and for contemplation. :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 06, 2013, 03:53:24 PM
Having been down with the flu.... I missed a couple of posts. If I offend someone I am open to correction- if the offence is deemed significant by the other moderators. The only times that I kno of that I have anything to say to somone outside of scripture based discussions, is when they teach as fact subject matter that is "open to discussion" and do so without addressing the scriptures concerning the subject matter. As Micah said earlier, we are all youngsters of a sort on here= no one has the "whole counsel of God"- most certainly not me.
When our POVs are in some measure of conflict, we should be able to discuss them without personal offence.
However, as moderators we must address issues of tone and conduct at times. I don't think any of us is perfect at it- most certainly not me :o)
Since I have some views that may be in the minority on the board I expect to catch a certain amount of heat for my posts- and I am not offended, -I usually my intentions are to hold some "middle ground" between the extremes :o)
My reasons for this are as follows:
People come to this site from diverse theological backgrounds.
We want them to feel welcome to investigate "the salvation of all", the "restoration of all things" and "ultimate universal reconciliation" without being made to face an onslaught about their secondary(as far as this site is concerned) beliefs.
In My Opinion, the glory of God is so wonderful and "mighty in love", that He is gathering all things together into one in Christ because Jesus is lifted up, and as soon as anyone sees Him, and the glory of His love, their "snakebite" (sin and death) is healed. Everyone will see Him, each in his own order.
We may disagree about the means, the method or the order- it is a small thing. We all praise HIM for the fact that He makes all things work according to the counsel of His will- in the end ALL will be redeemed.
Tentmaker is an ultimate reconciliation site, declaring the "Victorious Gospel". It is not a site for strident debates over other issues- altho all those issues may be addressed in "lively discussion".
It is also not a site where we set up "mini-tents" for promoting our peculiar, individual revelations- altho we can present them for "discernmemt by the body" if we like (as opposed to "declaring them as absolute truth").
:dsunny:
Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2012, 10:16:30 AM
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
---Rev 5:9
hâyâh Y'shû‛âh !
I AM Salvation!
..say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
--Ex 3:14
Isa 12:2 Behold, God [is] my salvation
Behold, El Y'shû‛âh
Behold, the God of Salvation
Behold, Lord Jesus
I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH [is] my strength and [my] song,
hâyâh Y'shû‛âh !
Look at the Hebrew!
"Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation."--Isa 12:2
"Behold, [God]
'êl [is my salvation]
Y'shû‛âh; I will trust, and will not be afraid; for the [LORD]
Yâhh [GOD]
YHWY is my strength and my song, [and he also has become]
hâyâh Y'shû‛âh [ my salvation.]"
..say unto the children of Israel, [I AM] hâyâh hath sent me unto you.
--Ex 3:14
QuoteOne of the things I believe God spoke to me (in perhaps the same time period) that was very "new age-ish" was, "All the love I've ever known was just God wearing different faces." Several times as I meditated on it I was overcome by loss of self consciousness and personal identity and by flowing forth into a brightness of Divine "Otherness" that is not what we call "self-centered."
Yeah me too reF!! About a few months ago He showed me that. :)
After He showed me that I said Lord, we're just vessels of You, of Your love! He said not "just". :) (As in, don't consider it a small thing lol!) What an amazing thing to be a vessel of Him, of His love!
hâyâh Y'shû‛âh ! is the new song!
I AM Salvation!
[he is become my salvation]
Then the One seated on the throne said, "Look! I am making everything new."
--Rev 21:5
I believe some productive things have been said today. :thumbsup: Falls in line with what came to me during the night. I believe we should generally try to refrain from attempting to give some sort of "label" to each other's views, and instead, discuss what each person believes the scriptures are saying. Example; I don't, but for the sake of example let's say I strongly disagree with Molly that some major things are brewing in the world today. If I say "you're a fear-mongerer, you must be a Hal Lindsay/Left Behind dispensationalist", how does that really move the conversation forward? Because even though Molly may have 3 or 4 specific views a "classic dispensationalist" may also have, she may also have 2 views of a "classic Preterist", 2 views of a Mormon [they believe Jesus walked the earth for ex.], and 4 views of a "charismatic latter rain believer" that could be claimed has some "new age" beliefs, and a couple of things no one else has seen mentioned before. Whew! So what does that "make her"? How do we accurately label her, and in so doing, encourage productive communication and true learning about the subject? IMO, it just gets us stuck at the point of exactly wherever that label was applied in the sentence. Then we can be distracted and just struggle over universal concepts, right or wrong, accurate/inaccurate, rather than moving forward in our mutual growth and understanding of the issues. I asked "what does that make her"? IMO, it "makes her" someone who is willing to look at various options, explore possibilities, test things, and hold to that which is good - not conforming herself to a specific label or mindset - so why should I assign such? IMO, it's counter-productive.
Same way with the "silly" statement I made a couple of days ago about the term "free will". Know what? It would have been better for me to say "I personally don't like the term, as I believe it's [often negatively] emotionally loaded, doesn't really accurately describe much, has come to be seen as a catch-all phrase for a certain belief system; but if you use it, OK, if I'm going to discuss it with you I just might need to ask more questions about what you personally mean by it". Admittedly, that requires a lot more thought and effort than saying "that's silly". However, look at all the energy that can be used just trying to dance around the label, and clean up the mess afterward.
All that said, none of us are perfect. We sometimes get our tongue wrapped around our eye tooth and can't see what we're doing. Also, we tend to revert back to our old ways, what has become automatic for us, so it takes time and effort to interrupt those habits and do new things. A little mercy and grace goes a long ways, for others and self. But in essence, just suggesting this for your consideration; could we really make the attempt to not label (the forum guidelines summarize it as "insults"), but rather, focus even more on a sort of "could you show me where you support that view in scripture, because here's what I see it saying"/"I disagree, and here's why [scripture]".
Well, I know that's s/w idealistic and took a bunch of wind to say, and perhaps even more patience to read; but there might be one or two things in there that will help someone. Maybe me. :laughing7: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Good job of putting that in words,JC........seasoning our conversations with salt............
Matthew 5; Again,anyone who says to his brother,'Raca" is answerable to the Sandhedrin.
But anyone who says 'You Fool! Will be in danger of the fire of hell" Pretty strong admonition from
the Lord,I feel.
Thank you sheila, and you followed up with a verse (seasoned with salt) that partially ran through my head as I was writing, but I couldn't get a handle on at the time. :thumbsup: !!
Thanks Jabcat... it's always good to be reminded to consider carefully how to share one's ideas, etc., in writing/addressing topics that can be "controversial" or just have differences of opinions.
On our community bulletin board's THOUGHT FOR THE DAY -- I smiled out loud as I read "Oh Lord, help me keep my words gracious and tender, for tomorrow I may have to eat them." 2 reminders in one day... one for the written word and one for the spoken word!!!
"Oh Lord, help me keep my words gracious and tender, for tomorrow I may have to eat them."
That's good. Really good :o)
Quote from: Jab; I don't, but for the sake of example let's say I strongly disagree with Molly that some major things are brewing in the world today. If I say "you're a fear-mongerer, you must be a Hal Lindsay/Left Behind dispensationalist", how does that really move the conversation forward? Because even though Molly may have 3 or 4 specific views a "classic dispensationalist" may also have, she may also have 2 views of a "classic Preterist", 2 views of a Mormon [they believe Jesus walked the earth for ex.], and 4 views of a "charismatic latter rain believer" that could be claimed has some "new age" beliefs, and a couple of things no one else has seen mentioned before. Whew! So what does that "make her"? How do we accurately label her, and in so doing, encourage productive communication and true learning about the subject?
wow. This makes molly sound very confused. :laugh:
I'll make it easy, though. Molly is a watcher.
1 Sing praises to God, our strength.
Sing to the God of Jacob.
2 Sing! Beat the tambourine.
Play the sweet lyre and the harp.
3 Blow the ram's horn at new moon,
and again at full moon to call a festival!
4 For this is required by the decrees of Israel;
it is a regulation of the God of Jacob.
5 He made it a law for Israel
when he attacked Egypt to set us free.
I heard an unknown voice say,
6 "Now I will take the load from your shoulders;
I will free your hands from their heavy tasks.
7 You cried to me in trouble, and I saved you...
--Psa 81
IMO freewill is very limited.
Reason? We are slaves to sin, yes we can resist with Christs help, but in this world we are bound by our sin. This inherited sin affects our everyday choices. As Christians we now know the consequences our sin can bring, but that does not mean we are truly free from it. No one is perfect in this Earth apart from our Lord Jesus. If I truly had freewill I'm sure I would choose to never sin again in this life, but that I don't, I'm bound to Adam and It's God's ultimate will that it is so.
I can't wait for the day where I am purified, and able to see God face to face, and to fully understand his will.
Time after time I was searching for peace in some void
I was trying to blame all my ills on this world I was in
Surface relationships used me till I was done in
But all the while someone was begging to free me from sin
Chorus
He was there all the time
He was there all the time
Waiting patiently in line
He was there all the time
Never again will I search for a fake rainbows end
Now that I've found the answer my life is just starting to rhyme
Sharing each new day with Him is a breath of fresh life
Oh what I've missed He's been waiting right here all the time
Chorus
He was there all the time
He was there all the time
Waiting patiently in line
He was there all the time
Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 07, 2013, 09:36:08 AM
Time after time I was searching for peace in some void
I was trying to blame all my ills on this world I was in
Surface relationships used me till I was done in
But all the while someone was begging to free me from sin
Chorus
He was there all the time
He was there all the time
Waiting patiently in line
He was there all the time
Never again will I search for a fake rainbows end
Now that I've found the answer my life is just starting to rhyme
Sharing each new day with Him is a breath of fresh life
Oh what I've missed He's been waiting right here all the time
Chorus
He was there all the time
He was there all the time
Waiting patiently in line
He was there all the time
Thoughtful; heartfelt, straightforward, Scriptural. I'm placing this in my HIM Folder which is quickly filling up with many old-time hymns... Thanks for providing a HIM-centered hymn in more up-to-date language. I'm assuming it's written by eaglesway.
yes He is..and yes He does :iagree:
...there might be a little dust on the bible[there might be a little dust on the Ark]
No, this one was written by Gary Paxton
Wills, we all have one, were born with one. Freedom to completely live the way our wills desire, doesn't happen.
Choices, yeah, we have lots of them. But what does that have to do with our wills? It wasn't my will to wake up having to go to the bathroom. So great, I have a choice to either lie in bed and suffer, pee in my bed, or get up and go to the bathroom. Experience over a period of time taught me that the best and most pleasant outcome is to get up and go into the bathroom, lol.
It is NOT my choice to go out to drive somewhere in my car and have a flat tire. If I really had free wil, I would NEVER have to make a choice as to how exactly to remedy that particular problem. But I choose the easiest path available to me. I choose what to eat when I get hungry based on what's in my fridge, and what is in my fridge is based on my income, whether someone else got the groceries inside or I did, and many other factors. But I didn't CHOOSE to be hungry and even when I'm trying to lose weight, sometimes I just can't keep from getting something to eat when I'm hungry.
I choose to stop at red lights BECAUSE the opposite choice is most likely NOT going to turn out well. Now, if I have a nature that likes to break laws, was it me that produced that nature? I am not by nature a rebel, or lawbreaker. But I claim no credit for it. I'm sure there were a few times that I decided to rebel against my parents wishes but one time was all it took for me. Yet I've seen some children time and time after time defy their parents no matter how severe the consequences. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for that nature? I didn't create myself to not like fish. I've tried to eat it but my whole being spits it out in revulsion, much to my chagrin. These are just a few simple illustrations of how little we really have ANY control over our lives. We are born with most of our personailty in tact and it is very rare that our own decisions can change us. Genetics, environment and experiences shape us every step along the way and we have very little say in what choices we get to make. Oh, often we can decide which of 2 or more alternatives we will choose, but did we really want to be in the circumstance in which we had to choose?
Have you ever tried to write a book? Good writers know the end from the beginning, they think of their characters and give them personalities and choose all their paths. I believe God is the greatest author of all. We have a will and the majority of us can learn and see why some choices were good and some were bad but God knew what choices we would make each time. I have always said we are not robots, but mice in a maze, We can only go through the passages that God allows us to and with each turn, we learn something. IF, God gave us the type of mind that can learn.
This is totally a departure from the way I once thought. I like this better.
It certainly exercises our brain to contemplate on these things.
Ahahahahahaha scarletwren I thoroughly enjoyed that post. :thumbsup:
me too :thumbsup:
Quote from: scarletwren on January 14, 2013, 11:38:49 PM
Wills, we all have one, were born with one. Freedom to completely live the way our wills desire, doesn't happen.
Choices, yeah, we have lots of them. But what does that have to do with our wills? It wasn't my will to wake up having to go to the bathroom. So great, I have a choice to either lie in bed and suffer, pee in my bed, or get up and go to the bathroom. Experience over a period of time taught me that the best and most pleasant outcome is to get up and go into the bathroom, lol.
It is NOT my choice to go out to drive somewhere in my car and have a flat tire. If I really had free wil, I would NEVER have to make a choice as to how exactly to remedy that particular problem. But I choose the easiest path available to me. I choose what to eat when I get hungry based on what's in my fridge, and what is in my fridge is based on my income, whether someone else got the groceries inside or I did, and many other factors. But I didn't CHOOSE to be hungry and even when I'm trying to lose weight, sometimes I just can't keep from getting something to eat when I'm hungry.
I choose to stop at red lights BECAUSE the opposite choice is most likely NOT going to turn out well. Now, if I have a nature that likes to break laws, was it me that produced that nature? I am not by nature a rebel, or lawbreaker. But I claim no credit for it. I'm sure there were a few times that I decided to rebel against my parents wishes but one time was all it took for me. Yet I've seen some children time and time after time defy their parents no matter how severe the consequences. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for that nature? I didn't create myself to not like fish. I've tried to eat it but my whole being spits it out in revulsion, much to my chagrin. These are just a few simple illustrations of how little we really have ANY control over our lives. We are born with most of our personailty in tact and it is very rare that our own decisions can change us. Genetics, environment and experiences shape us every step along the way and we have very little say in what choices we get to make. Oh, often we can decide which of 2 or more alternatives we will choose, but did we really want to be in the circumstance in which we had to choose?
Have you ever tried to write a book? Good writers know the end from the beginning, they think of their characters and give them personalities and choose all their paths. I believe God is the greatest author of all. We have a will and the majority of us can learn and see why some choices were good and some were bad but God knew what choices we would make each time. I have always said we are not robots, but mice in a maze, We can only go through the passages that God allows us to and with each turn, we learn something. IF, God gave us the type of mind that can learn.
This is totally a departure from the way I once thought. I like this better.
It certainly exercises our brain to contemplate on these things.
And I agree completely. :banana:
CHB
:iagree:
Quote from: scarletwren on January 14, 2013, 11:38:49 PM
Wills, we all have one, were born with one. Freedom to completely live the way our wills desire, doesn't happen.
It is NOT my choice to go out to drive somewhere in my car and have a flat tire. If I really had free wil, I would NEVER have to make a choice as to how exactly to remedy that particular problem. But I choose the easiest path available to me. I choose what to eat when I get hungry based on what's in my fridge, and what is in my fridge is based on my income, whether someone else got the groceries inside or I did, and many other factors. But I didn't CHOOSE to be hungry and even when I'm trying to lose weight, sometimes I just can't keep from getting something to eat when I'm hungry.
It certainly exercises our brain to contemplate on these things.
I do agree that no one has a "totally free" will. However, IMO we have much more autonomy than "mice in a maze". Autonomy of will is not about whether we can or can't choose all the circumstances that happen to us- if it were we would all live forever in perfect peace :o) It is about how we react to having a flat tire. Do we curse and get angry and anxious? Do we call on the name of the Lord? Our will is being shaped by the circumstance (which God controls), and we are learning to abide in the victory of Christ, "Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me, '
I come to do thy will, O God'."
I do agree that no one has a "totally free" will. However, IMO we have much more autonomy than "mice in a maze". Autonomy of will is not about whether we can or can't choose all the circumstances that happen to us- if it were we would all live forever in perfect peace :o) It is about how we react to having a flat tire. Do we curse and get angry and anxious? Do we call on the name of the Lord? Our will is being shaped by the circumstance (which God controls), and we are learning to abide in the victory of Christ, "Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me, 'I come to do thy will, O God'."
[/quote]
Learn...there's the key word. We must learn to not just react to our circumstances but to think and to trust that there is a solution or else accept when the solution is not to our liking. And we learn by going through the trials. Yet, only SOME learn in this age, those to whom God has preordained. Others rail and fight continually nad there are some who don't really seem to encounter very many obstacles or problems to obtaining what they think they want. I just can't comprehend that He lets us create ourselves. We are HIS workmanship. Few find many real answers in this lifetime, but if we believe in God's purpose to finish us all in due season, then we know that all will come to a knowledge of Him in time. God is working it all out in His perfect wisdom, even tho it can be quite frustrating for us mere mortals.
I am a fatalist and yet not, I find it quite interesting to see how God works things out around me and NEVER have I laid in bed and waited for God to make me move.
To me, if God isn't controlling everything, then something, somewhere could ruin his plans or He might have to do a lot of damage control. I believe that every little thing that happens leads up to the big things and we aren't even aware of it. But, we are aware of the things that go on around us and we can make judgments, think on it (chew the cud so to speak).
But, if you don't believe in God's total sovereignty in our lives, well, then I guess He planned it that way. :dunno2:
God is great and greatly to be praised. Let us lift His name on high.
Well, maybe its the scriptures, "For freedom Christ has set you free...." or "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free...." or "the whole creation shall be delivered from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God...." and finally, "the wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes or wither it goes- so it is with evryone who is born of the spirit" -cause me to cringe at the word "control" especially relating to "every little thing".
I see God teaching us to agree with the wind, to be free from all control but love- the ultimate freedom. "For where love is, there is no need for law"
The last adversary to be destroyed is death and with it "all rule, power and authority" as God becomes "all in all".
Certainly it is a matter of perspective, for God protects us from the worst of our desires, sometimes, and guides us against our will, often, but He also says,
"Be not like the horse or the mule, which must have a bit and a bridle or it will not come near you"
and
"Where else must you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion"
and
"he learned obedience thru the things he suffered"
and
"take my yoke upon you, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest"
So many appeals to us, to yield our wills- that I still believe this is the core lesson. Yield, follow, agree and find freedom in the love of God.
Back when I was a boy in Kansas, at a certain time there was a new development: other boys on the block got baseballs and mitts and were playing catch. I thought about why I don't like playing checkers. It didn't matter if I learned more so I could oftener win the game since there was no difference between winning or losing. You got the same thing either way: nothing! For a little more than two weeks I considered becoming a professional baseball player, the only reason I could see to start playing at all; but, I just didn't see myself fulfilled that way.
I realized that the justification given for many games played in school was they were good for your health. It seemed to me that lifting weights would be much more direct a route to a more comprehensive physical perfection. So, I went on to reject games altogether, disliking them for many years. What I failed to consider making that decision was the social aspect to games. While women find it easier to relate directly to one another, men tend to need something else to do together, allowing them to relate more indirectly.
While I've learned to like some games, my past may affect how I respond to Solitaire. I don't know how you regard it; but, I can hardly endure it. It is simply intolerable. I can't see how that kind of thing could possibly entertain God. While the scripture convinced me, from one approach to the universe and all that is in it, nothing else exists but God, this analogy between Solitaire and all creation indicates the importance for God to make a creature with a certain independent and self originating nature.
That all things were created for His pleasure makes it impossible that He must sustain unending evils, as some have been taught. "God is not tried by evils, yet He is trying no one. Now each one is undergoing trial when he is drawn away and lured by his own desire." (Ja 113-14, Conc. Lit.) This shows us that if God is drawn and lured by His own desires it must only be good, never evil, as also it is written, "...neither shall evil dwell with thee," (Ps 54) which means within Himself evil doesn't even stop by on it's way somewhere else.
Absolute liberty is the goal to which we are headed as indicated where He defines for us, "...the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." (1 Co 1524, Conc. Lit.) Yet it is consistent with God getting His own way in the end. This is very appropriate, considering His wisdom and goodness of character. Knowing by experience, "God is love," also makes this eventuality to be welcomed with joyful approval.
Quote from: scarletwren on January 15, 2013, 06:54:24 AM
I do agree that no one has a "totally free" will. However, IMO we have much more autonomy than "mice in a maze". Autonomy of will is not about whether we can or can't choose all the circumstances that happen to us- if it were we would all live forever in perfect peace :o) It is about how we react to having a flat tire. Do we curse and get angry and anxious? Do we call on the name of the Lord? Our will is being shaped by the circumstance (which God controls), and we are learning to abide in the victory of Christ, "Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me, 'I come to do thy will, O God'."
Learn...there's the key word. We must learn to not just react to our circumstances but to think and to trust that there is a solution or else accept when the solution is not to our liking. And we learn by going through the trials. Yet, only SOME learn in this age, those to whom God has preordained. Others rail and fight continually nad there are some who don't really seem to encounter very many obstacles or problems to obtaining what they think they want. I just can't comprehend that He lets us create ourselves. We are HIS workmanship. Few find many real answers in this lifetime, but if we believe in God's purpose to finish us all in due season, then we know that all will come to a knowledge of Him in time. God is working it all out in His perfect wisdom, even tho it can be quite frustrating for us mere mortals.
I am a fatalist and yet not, I find it quite interesting to see how God works things out around me and NEVER have I laid in bed and waited for God to make me move.
To me, if God isn't controlling everything, then something, somewhere could ruin his plans or He might have to do a lot of damage control. I believe that every little thing that happens leads up to the big things and we aren't even aware of it. But, we are aware of the things that go on around us and we can make judgments, think on it (chew the cud so to speak).
But, if you don't believe in God's total sovereignty in our lives, well, then I guess He planned it that way. :dunno2:
God is great and greatly to be praised. Let us lift His name on high.
[/quote]
EXcellent! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
I love being distracted by what's going on,
and then coming to a conclusion that God is completely in control.
He is the author of every thing that has come to past.
I never doubt God's sovereignty when looking at what has come to past.
When I look to the future I always see Gods' sovereignty.
That is why I pray.
The important thing is how I see now, right now.
Am I important to this God of sovereignty?
Would he change any thing in the future to accommodate my prayers?
I am the only being in the universe with this mind.
Is that important to God?
I believe the more sure I am of him.
The more I can trust my pitiful yearnings, are authored by God.
The story of Love and the sign of the Cross.
Coupled with the sacrifice of Jesus as his son,
convincing me (my spirit) that this plan was brought together
at the start of the story .So that the end is glorious.
indeed..the scriptures must be fulfilled..the Word of God will not return unto Him void. these things MUST happen
Quote from: scarletwren on January 14, 2013, 11:38:49 PM
Have you ever tried to write a book? Good writers know the end from the beginning, they think of their characters and give them personalities and choose all their paths.
I recall that in writing my short story (more like an allegory) "Impasse and Exit," which can be found on this forum, I did not know the end when I began it. Some of the material in the story came to me long after I had already racked up several drafts (it's now at draft 21). I'm currently writing a book about the Bride of Christ, and I really cannot tell you how it is going to turn out. I have an idea who the Bride is, but not 100% certain - the Bible gives us some hints, but no positive ID. Anticipation...
Scarletwren is talking about a fiction novel Laz, with personalities characters and what happens next which must be thought ahead of time.
Yours is a different kind of book - hopefully it's non-fiction :Chinscratch: :Peace2:
Quote from: scarletwren on January 15, 2013, 06:54:24 AM
Learn...there's the key word. We must learn to not just react to our circumstances but to think and to trust that there is a solution or else accept when the solution is not to our liking. And we learn by going through the trials. Yet, only SOME learn in this age, those to whom God has preordained. Others rail and fight continually nad there are some who don't really seem to encounter very many obstacles or problems to obtaining what they think they want. I just can't comprehend that He lets us create ourselves. We are HIS workmanship. Few find many real answers in this lifetime, but if we believe in God's purpose to finish us all in due season, then we know that all will come to a knowledge of Him in time. God is working it all out in His perfect wisdom, even tho it can be quite frustrating for us mere mortals.
I am a fatalist and yet not, I find it quite interesting to see how God works things out around me and NEVER have I laid in bed and waited for God to make me move.
To me, if God isn't controlling everything, then something, somewhere could ruin his plans or He might have to do a lot of damage control. I believe that every little thing that happens leads up to the big things and we aren't even aware of it. But, we are aware of the things that go on around us and we can make judgments, think on it (chew the cud so to speak).
But, if you don't believe in God's total sovereignty in our lives, well, then I guess He planned it that way. :dunno2:
God is great and greatly to be praised. Let us lift His name on high.
Amen!! If God didn't have full control of things I would be worried.
CHB
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 15, 2013, 05:56:40 PM
Quote from: scarletwren on January 15, 2013, 06:54:24 AM
I do agree that no one has a "totally free" will. However, IMO we have much more autonomy than "mice in a maze". Autonomy of will is not about whether we can or can't choose all the circumstances that happen to us- if it were we would all live forever in perfect peace :o) It is about how we react to having a flat tire. Do we curse and get angry and anxious? Do we call on the name of the Lord? Our will is being shaped by the circumstance (which God controls), and we are learning to abide in the victory of Christ, "Behold, in the volume of the book it is written of me, 'I come to do thy will, O God'."
Learn...there's the key word. We must learn to not just react to our circumstances but to think and to trust that there is a solution or else accept when the solution is not to our liking. And we learn by going through the trials. Yet, only SOME learn in this age, those to whom God has preordained. Others rail and fight continually nad there are some who don't really seem to encounter very many obstacles or problems to obtaining what they think they want. I just can't comprehend that He lets us create ourselves. We are HIS workmanship. Few find many real answers in this lifetime, but if we believe in God's purpose to finish us all in due season, then we know that all will come to a knowledge of Him in time. God is working it all out in His perfect wisdom, even tho it can be quite frustrating for us mere mortals.
I am a fatalist and yet not, I find it quite interesting to see how God works things out around me and NEVER have I laid in bed and waited for God to make me move.
To me, if God isn't controlling everything, then something, somewhere could ruin his plans or He might have to do a lot of damage control. I believe that every little thing that happens leads up to the big things and we aren't even aware of it. But, we are aware of the things that go on around us and we can make judgments, think on it (chew the cud so to speak).
But, if you don't believe in God's total sovereignty in our lives, well, then I guess He planned it that way. :dunno2:
God is great and greatly to be praised. Let us lift His name on high.
EXcellent! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
[/quote]
The idea that God must control every aspect of our lives, thoughts and actions in order to 'teach" us or "preserve His plan" is(IMO) flawed logic. A good Father gradually releases his sons as they prove faithful to more and more autonomy over his estate ( I give you the keys to the kingdom, he that overcomes will receive the key of David)
God is looking for fellowship, agreement, FRIENDSHIP(the testimony that God has given of Abraham- that He was the friend of God, of David, that he was a man after God's own heart).
Jesus said to the Pharisees, "is it not written in your own scriptures, you are all gods and sons of the most high?"
He was quoting from Psalm 82.
1 God (elohyim) standeth in the congregation of the mighty(el); he judgeth(holds counsel)among the gods(elohyim).
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy
4 Deliver the poor and needy: ridthem out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundationsH4146 of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods;(elohyim) and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men......
God works in counsel with the graduates of the school of discipleship...." Let us make man in our image".......
He is multipying Himself in those who are to be "many sons unto glory". Sons who walk as Jesus defined it, like the wind(john3:8)
This is about flowing with the spirit of God because the obstructions have been removed(sanctification by the Spirit)- not being controled by God- a subtle distinction to some, but In My Opininon an important one in understanding His purpose.
Stewardship is autonomy expressed within the parameters of the landowner, and it is judged, held accountable, and increased as faithfulness is demonstrated in the steward. To miss this out of the teachings of the Master is a big "ELEMENT OF THE TRUTH" lost to the understanding- not the WHOLE STORY, but and IMPORTANT ELEMENT.
This is the only reason I continue to discuss it :o)
God POSSESSES TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY. My assertion is that He does not exercise it.
All of these scriptures that seem to imply us using our own wills to accomplish things, then there are scriptures that turn right around and prove we don't.
Take for instance where God says "choose this day whom you will serve". But then Jesus says "no man can come to me except it be given to him". No man can come to me except the Father draw/drag him. Now if we are dragged to him how can we choose one way or the other? Also, for it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of his good pleasure. If it is God that is working in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, what is left for us to do? Nothing.
Most of the verses that imply a will that is in control are in the OT but the Israelites was under the Law and agreed to do all of them but God showed them that they could not. God tells Israel to open their eyes, or do this or that or I will bring you into captivity and he does but he always brings them out of the captivity. God then says "I have blinded Israel", so how could they have done these things that was required of them when God blinded their eyes and closed their ears?
CHB
Actually the scriptures do not contradict themselves, ever. We are speaking here about "elements" of the "whole". We are disagreeing about "measures and degrees". We "accomplish" nothing of ourselves. Our will is only about "deciding" whether to apply the resources God has given us according to His leading or not, and it is God who is in you do will and to do of His good pleasure. Yet, while it is still called "Today", we are exhorted to love and good works and to "hear His voice and not harden our hearts as they did in the wilderness". Want out of the wilderness? Let the one who has ears to hear HEAR what the Spirit is saying. There is a balance. It is not all theoretical. This is called "stewardship" and it is all over the word in both testaments. "I can of my own flesh do nothing". I can also decide to do nothing even with the grace of God at my beck and call. By "taking His yoke upon me" I can become a disciple, and am taught to do so.
Paul says, "Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh". Why?
He does not say, "God will walk in the spirit in you"- he gives a positive imperative to engage your will in co-operation with God. He also encourages us TO GIVE GOD ALL THE GLORY for the victory. It is a two sided coin my friends, and you cannot cut either side of it out of the word, even if the paradox of that frustrates your intellect.
If there is no merit to what I propose here and no scriptural authority for it, would someone please describe stewardship in such a way that it makes sense from a scriptural perspective?
Quote from: CHB on January 16, 2013, 03:59:56 AM
All of these scriptures that seem to imply us using our own wills to accomplish things, then there are scriptures that turn right around and prove we don't.
Take for instance where God says "choose this day whom you will serve". But then Jesus says "no man can come to me except it be given to him". No man can come to me except the Father draw/drag him. Now if we are dragged to him how can we choose one way or the other? Also, for it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of his good pleasure. If it is God that is working in us to will and to do of his good pleasure, what is left for us to do? Nothing.
Most of the verses that imply a will that is in control are in the OT but the Israelites was under the Law and agreed to do all of them but God showed them that they could not. God tells Israel to open their eyes, or do this or that or I will bring you into captivity and he does but he always brings them out of the captivity. God then says "I have blinded Israel", so how could they have done these things that was required of them when God blinded their eyes and closed their ears?
CHB
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: scarletwren on January 14, 2013, 11:38:49 PM
Wills, we all have one, were born with one. Freedom to completely live the way our wills desire, doesn't happen.
Choices, yeah, we have lots of them. But what does that have to do with our wills? It wasn't my will to wake up having to go to the bathroom. So great, I have a choice to either lie in bed and suffer, pee in my bed, or get up and go to the bathroom. Experience over a period of time taught me that the best and most pleasant outcome is to get up and go into the bathroom, lol.
It is NOT my choice to go out to drive somewhere in my car and have a flat tire. If I really had free wil, I would NEVER have to make a choice as to how exactly to remedy that particular problem. But I choose the easiest path available to me. I choose what to eat when I get hungry based on what's in my fridge, and what is in my fridge is based on my income, whether someone else got the groceries inside or I did, and many other factors. But I didn't CHOOSE to be hungry and even when I'm trying to lose weight, sometimes I just can't keep from getting something to eat when I'm hungry.
I choose to stop at red lights BECAUSE the opposite choice is most likely NOT going to turn out well. Now, if I have a nature that likes to break laws, was it me that produced that nature? I am not by nature a rebel, or lawbreaker. But I claim no credit for it. I'm sure there were a few times that I decided to rebel against my parents wishes but one time was all it took for me. Yet I've seen some children time and time after time defy their parents no matter how severe the consequences. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE for that nature? I didn't create myself to not like fish. I've tried to eat it but my whole being spits it out in revulsion, much to my chagrin. These are just a few simple illustrations of how little we really have ANY control over our lives. We are born with most of our personailty in tact and it is very rare that our own decisions can change us. Genetics, environment and experiences shape us every step along the way and we have very little say in what choices we get to make. Oh, often we can decide which of 2 or more alternatives we will choose, but did we really want to be in the circumstance in which we had to choose?
Have you ever tried to write a book? Good writers know the end from the beginning, they think of their characters and give them personalities and choose all their paths. I believe God is the greatest author of all. We have a will and the majority of us can learn and see why some choices were good and some were bad but God knew what choices we would make each time. I have always said we are not robots, but mice in a maze, We can only go through the passages that God allows us to and with each turn, we learn something. IF, God gave us the type of mind that can learn.
This is totally a departure from the way I once thought. I like this better.
It certainly exercises our brain to contemplate on these things.
Praise the Lord! :HeartThrob: Some will hear! Glory :dsunny:
IMO
God does not require all of us to be on the same level of understanding.
Each one of us was given a special gift by the Holy Spirit.
Some may fathom great mysteries of God.
I do believe that God has given me a special measure of faith in the finished work
of Jesus on the cross.
God and I will forever be in relationship.
A relationship that is so beautiful and glorious.
I have of my free will blinded my self and only see darkness in my flesh.
I see no hope of me doing any thing right before the Lord .
I trust in the eternal works of Jesus .
I see posts here some times telling me (us) I have a free will and that there is a right and wrong way to use this free will .
I am afraid of the idea of God allowing me to decide the nature of our relationship.
I know there is no good in me .
May-be the gift of faith is for the weakest among us.
I would not say God has allowed you to determine the nature of your relationship either. His love for you and His mercy towards you has no limit. What He has allowed you to decide is between you and Him and it is a learning process that is known only to the disciple and the Master.
"If any man would be disciple, let him take up his cross, say no to himself and come, follow me."
"Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls"
Can you tame freedom, glory, power, and grace without diminishing it?
The answer is Yes.
Hempfling - Signal-Weight-Riding - Bridle-less -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR9ehtTrp0c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVciE_KBLYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P126dqZwcOA
It takes a lot of time to understand the freedom that God brings us into. The churches are like horse trainers who put the bit in the mouth of the horses and pull back to cause pain whenever the horse does something they don't like. They put heavy burdens on the horse's back with saddles and tight girths and riders who have no balance or grace.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. Mat 23
But what does God say?
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. [Gal 5:1]
That means there is something about the characteristic of freedom that God considers to our highest benefit.
The goal is freedom, not slavery, not imposing something which is alien and constricting.
Of course, Satan's view of freedom is that everything will run amuck because that is what Satan does with his freedom. So first he inspires drugs, sex, and rock and roll as a counterfeit of freedom, and then he puts the bit in the horse's mouth and exerts control through pain. Maybe he only does the one so that he can do the other. His nickname is the destroyer.
So many are afraid of freedom because they do not understand that being free to be everything God has created you to be is a glorious thing,-- that's why he calls it, the glorious freedom of the sons of God.
very High pricple presented here Molly. :thumbsup: that black stallion was especially glorious.
I Agree Molly. The greatest freedom is to be motivated completely by the love of God in the wisdom of God for the will of God, which is the restoration of all. IMO That is what we, as disciples, sons, and priests are being transformed into.
IMO, God is motivated (solely)souly by Love. It's who He is, It's what he does.
:thumbsup: that's why there is no law against LOVE/SPIRIT. it is only hate/lawlessness that need be restrained......
I just can't hardly wait for the new creation...though now we all 'groan'...we all suffer togather.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 17, 2013, 05:27:56 PM
IMO, God is motivated (solely)souly by Love. It's who He is, It's what he does.
Amen, and Jesus is the image of God, Filled with His fulness, and we are being transformed into the same image (the inward image) "For all those who He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of the son of God :o)
it's the heart afraid of breaking, that never learns to dance......I say Love it is a flower..and you..it's only seed..
the Rose. :HeartThrob:
Everyone who is truly "born of God" is a new creation in Christ. As such we are the open portals through which the kingdom of heaven is pouring into the earth. "I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and daughters will prophecy". "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth(in me) as it is in heaven(in Christ)."
If we are open gates, "Be lifted up ye gates, and be lifted up ye everlasting doors, that the King of Glory may come in!" Then the earth is filling up with the glory of God. The banners of the kingdom are the rays of light streaming from the sunrise in His face, which is ours as well if we Behold Him In The Mirror (Fixing our eyes on Jesus).
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the Majestic Glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. Therefore we have a more sure word of prophecy; unto which you do well to pay attention, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns, and the morning star arises in your hearts:
(2Pe 1:16-19)
When is the Majestic Glory testifying that we are well-pleasing in His site? When we prefer one another in love. When we reflect the image of the one we are fixing our eyes upon within the holy of holies in our hearts, with whom we fellowship upon the holy mounts of the renewed mind- Jesus the Lamb.
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:17-18)
Glory! :dsunny:
Glory
when I look at this word it seems that there must be a better word to describe
how I felt reading your post Eaglesway
That 'better word' will be upon both our lips in the Day when we stand worshipping Him with all creation ;o)
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 17, 2013, 05:27:56 PM
IMO, God is motivated (solely)souly by Love. It's who He is, It's what he does.
Exquisite use of wording ded. I have a friend who says if God had DNA it would be love.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 18, 2013, 03:18:03 AM
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:17-18)
Glory! :dsunny:
Romans 6 . . .
4 We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that,
even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we also should be walking in newness of life.5 For if we have become planted together in the likeness of His death, nevertheless we shall be of the resurrection also,
6 knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of Sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for Sin,
7 for one who dies has been justified from Sin.
and like Eaglesway said Vinebranch(in a different way)
Jesus IS God's DNA and it is indeed love.
:iagree: the DIVINE NATURE ACTIVATED :banana: :banana:
I would like to share where this discussion has lead me so far.
I started this thread thinking I was a devote of Free Will. Now, I'm not sure.
A long time ago, while I was involved in the intelligent Design argument, I came to understand that not only is the universe designed, so am I. I told some of the folks with whom I fellowshiped that I thought of it this way. Say I borrowed your car. The next day I return with my arm in a cast and say this to you, "...you know as a car your vehicle works great, but as an airplane however, it leaves a lot to be desired." You might answer by telling me that it was never designed to be an airplane.
My desire to believe in Free Will was based on the notion that somehow we are actively involved in the conclusion of, if not the universe, at least our own lives. I see now that there is an oxymoron at work here. I cannot ultimately be designed, and at the same time be free (in the sense of being able to transcend my design). The only way I could transcend is if I was designed to to so, but that would be a part of my design, and therefore would say nothing of freedom. I told a friend at work the other day that I didn't think I believed in Free Will. He looked at me, didn't say a word, just looked. I saw his lips twitch, his mouth trying to bring forth words, but they weren't coming. Finely he simply turned away. Apparently we are changed from glory to glory. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Free Will has been my obsession for decades, and now, I can simply let it go. It really isn't important. I was designed to be in a loving relationship with my father; it is literally who I was created to be, and who I am!! Free Will is one of those pieces of dross which fell away, and I'm fine with that.
Dross falling away. I like that.
and being human, I like that you agree with my position :doh: :Peace2:
Well Glory! :dsunny:
Creator,Sovereign......we can Not be any other that what HE makes of us.
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 07:58:16 PM
Creator,Sovereign......we can Not be any other that what HE makes of us.
Sheila, not to cause debate but perhaps you meant what I believe and understand, Creator,Sovereign......we can Not be any other that what
HE is making of us. I so love these comforting words,
Jer 18:4 and marred is the vessel that he is making, as clay in the hand of the potter, and he hath turned and he maketh it another vessel, as it was right in the eyes of the potter to make.
Jer 18:5 And there is a word of Jehovah to me, saying:
Jer 18:6 As this potter am I not able to do to you? O house of Israel, an affirmation of Jehovah. Lo, as clay in the hand of the potter, So are ye in My hand, O house of Israel.
:HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Quote from: VineBranch on January 18, 2013, 07:13:27 PM
I would like to share where this discussion has lead me so far.
I started this thread thinking I was a devote of Free Will. Now, I'm not sure.
A long time ago, while I was involved in the intelligent Design argument, I came to understand that not only is the universe designed, so am I. I told some of the folks with whom I fellowshiped that I thought of it this way. Say I borrowed your car. The next day I return with my arm in a cast and say this to you, "...you know as a car your vehicle works great, but as an airplane however, it leaves a lot to be desired." You might answer by telling me that it was never designed to be an airplane.
My desire to believe in Free Will was based on the notion that somehow we are actively involved in the conclusion of, if not the universe, at least our own lives. I see now that there is an oxymoron at work here. I cannot ultimately be designed, and at the same time be free (in the sense of being able to transcend my design). The only way I could transcend is if I was designed to to so, but that would be a part of my design, and therefore would say nothing of freedom. I told a friend at work the other day that I didn't think I believed in Free Will. He looked at me, didn't say a word, just looked. I saw his lips twitch, his mouth trying to bring forth words, but they weren't coming. Finely he simply turned away. Apparently we are changed from glory to glory. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Free Will has been my obsession for decades, and now, I can simply let it go. It really isn't important. I was designed to be in a loving relationship with my father; it is literally who I was created to be, and who I am!! Free Will is one of those pieces of dross which fell away, and I'm fine with that.
That's very interesting! I never thought of it quite that way, but I think it's accurate, that 'free will' passes away.. :smile: We were designed with thinking ability and an offshoot of thinking ability is the ability to make choices.. but any choice which differs with God, the Maker's choices, causes us to move away from Him (who is both Life and Perfection, etc). I suppose God's 'other' choice would be no rational creatures.. ever. So isn't this an unavoidable journey we are all on.. and lesson? Unavoidable if there is to be thinking ability, that is. So we are chewing that fruit of knowing good from evil (life from death) and in the 'end' we will firmly realize, as this discussion has pointed out, that any will other than God's will, simply cannot be done, for it becomes the opposite of Perfection, which is nonlife. Then to boot, will occur that (surely?) long 'day' (age?) of the examination and review (judgment) of all things, which will doubly etch and engrave this knowing of good from evil, life from death, upon every heart, mind and psyche.
- The thing that most gets me, though, is how if God is life (itself, the life force, what else could be?) then because He endowed thinking ability, every one suffers, and some even horribly, but He, being life, experiences, suffers and lives through it all, all sufferings which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! ..I suppose because He's not making an ant farm or robots, but His very own family, and an eternally un-breakable paradise.. Somehow I am quite sure God examined all possibilities before creating, and subsequently has done every single thing, and all things, in order to bring about the absolutely best 'end' result possible. :smile:
:thumbsup: Right,mICAH..THAT'S WHAT i MEANT :HeartThrob:
MARIE...I LOVE YOUR POST. GOD ALSO LAY HIS LIFE DOWN IN ORDER TO TAKE IT BACK UP AGAIN/JESUS ONLY DOES
WHAT HE BEHOLDS THE FATHER DOING. LIKE FATHER/LIKE SON
For me, this answers much as to why there is suffering in my walk.
Isa 53:10 And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed--he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
1Pe 2:19 for this is gracious, if because of conscience toward God any one doth endure sorrows, suffering unrighteously;
1Pe 2:20 for what renown is it , if sinning and being buffeted, ye do endure it ? but if, doing good and suffering for it , ye do endure, this is gracious with God,
1Pe 2:21 for to this ye were called, because Christ also did suffer for you, leaving to you an example, that ye may follow his steps,
1Pe 2:22 who did not commit sin, nor was guile found in his mouth,
1Pe 2:23 who being reviled--was not reviling again, suffering--was not threatening, and was committing himself to Him who is judging righteously,
1Pe 2:24 who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed,
1Pe 2:25 for ye were as sheep going astray, but ye turned back now to the shepherd and overseer of your souls.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
BEAUTIFUL! MICAH!!!! :girlheart:
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 07:58:16 PM
Creator,Sovereign......we can Not be any other that what HE makes of us.
What He is making of us is sons, walking in the glorious liberty of the children of God, conformed to His image, in communion with His Spirit and within His love, SO AT ONE WITH HIM that there is no division, rule power or authority anymore, For the FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY, BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.
The one whom Christ shall set free shall be FREE INDEED. That means FREE FOR REAL.
We are held under tutors(Galatians 4) until our sonship is established. Then we are given the keys to the kingdom because we have passed through the garden into the cross.
"Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done"
Our stewardship grows from almost no freedom(law), into TOTAL FREEDOM, because God is ALL IN ALL- there is no more need for subjection because God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER.
Just another point of view brothers and sisters.
We do have room for more than one point of view here at Tentmaker, don't we? :o) Peace.
Among the primary reasons for Creating all of us in the first place?
Fellowship. Communion. Harmony. Friendship.
Who wants a Bride who loves because she is made to?
Ask Hosea :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 05:32:54 AM
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 07:58:16 PM
Creator,Sovereign......we can Not be any other that what HE makes of us.
What He is making of us is sons, walking in the glorious liberty of the children of God, conformed to His image, in communion with His Spirit and within His love, SO AT ONE WITH HIM that there is no division, rule power or authority anymore, For the FORMER THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY, BEHOLD I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW.
The one whom Christ shall set free shall be FREE INDEED. That means FREE FOR REAL.
We are held under tutors(Galatians 4) until our sonship is established. Then we are given the keys to the kingdom because we have passed through the garden into the cross.
"Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done"
Our stewardship grows from almost no freedom(law), into TOTAL FREEDOM, because God is ALL IN ALL- there is no more need for subjection because God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER.
Just another point of view brothers and sisters.
We do have room for more than one point of view here at Tentmaker, don't we? :o) Peace.
"We do have room for more than one point of view here at Tentmaker, don't we? :o) Peace."
What other point of view do you speak of? If Iam allowed to ask?
No, since your point of view differs from mine, you are not allowed to ask :LH:
Quote from: sheila on January 18, 2013, 06:43:40 PM
:iagree: the DIVINE NATURE ACTIVATED :banana: :banana:
At last, a real definition!! (I can also spell this one.)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 05:32:54 AM
Our stewardship grows from almost no freedom(law), into TOTAL FREEDOM, because God is ALL IN ALL- there is no more need for subjection because God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER.
Does that mean we together
comprise God? Sort of a Pan Theism?
I think I disagree Eagle. I don't mean to start anything but scripture and the experiences of my own life have shown me that God is totally and wholly
The Other.
I don't get how you get pan theism there VB. We are members of the Body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all. We are stones in the living tabernacle of which Jesus is Chief Cornerstone- being built into a habitation of God in the Spirit.
In Johns revelation it is written of the wings of the seraphim that they made a sound like the rushing of many waters, like the Voice of the Almighty, like 10,000s of 10,000s(10,000 to the 10,000th power)praising God.
Jesus said that evryone who is born of the spirit is like the wind (John3:8)- you hear the sound of it but you don't know from whence it comes or where it goes.
God is spirit. He is the wind. We are breaths. We are carried along with Him as we divest ourselves of the heaviness of flesh and the pleasures of the mind and the pride of life.
No where does it say God is WHOLLY OTHER than us. Jesus prayed.... That you may be one EVEN AS I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE, I am in the Father, the Father is in me, and I am in you.
We are being created in the image of Christ, the image of God. We are who we are, but we are coming into PERFECT UNION with God in the Spirit- and so PERFECT UNION with one another.
That's freedom.
Youse guys :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 08:04:45 AM
I don't get how you get pan theism there VB.
Fair enough.
You said "God is the river and we are THE DROPLETS OF WATER".
All the droplets of a river make up that river. If what you said is true then all of us combined make up God (our coming together create God). I suspect that is not what you meant, but it is the logical conclusion of what you said. If God is the river, then all the droplets must be a part of the river, and share in the oneness of the river. I just think that because God existed before I did, and because I was then created by God, I am not part of what makes up God.
I accept that I am part of the church; I cannot accept that I am part
of God. Perhaps we could say The Church is the river and we are the droplet: that makes a whole lot of sense to me.
I never said we are coming together to create God? :dontknow:
I said He is the river, we are droplets of water in the river. The river was mighty before we got in it ;o)
How about God is like the ocean and we(all humans) when reconciled will be like a bucket of water thrown in all our droplets now being a part of the vastness.?
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 05:39:55 PM
How about God is like the ocean and we(all humans) when reconciled will be like a bucket of water thrown in all our droplets now being a part of the vastness.?
Works for me :dsunny:
Quote from: VineBranch on January 18, 2013, 07:13:27 PM
I would like to share where this discussion has lead me so far.
I started this thread thinking I was a devote of Free Will. Now, I'm not sure.
A long time ago, while I was involved in the intelligent Design argument, I came to understand that not only is the universe designed, so am I. I told some of the folks with whom I fellowshiped that I thought of it this way. Say I borrowed your car. The next day I return with my arm in a cast and say this to you, "...you know as a car your vehicle works great, but as an airplane however, it leaves a lot to be desired." You might answer by telling me that it was never designed to be an airplane.
My desire to believe in Free Will was based on the notion that somehow we are actively involved in the conclusion of, if not the universe, at least our own lives. I see now that there is an oxymoron at work here. I cannot ultimately be designed, and at the same time be free (in the sense of being able to transcend my design). The only way I could transcend is if I was designed to to so, but that would be a part of my design, and therefore would say nothing of freedom. I told a friend at work the other day that I didn't think I believed in Free Will. He looked at me, didn't say a word, just looked. I saw his lips twitch, his mouth trying to bring forth words, but they weren't coming. Finely he simply turned away. Apparently we are changed from glory to glory. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Free Will has been my obsession for decades, and now, I can simply let it go. It really isn't important. I was designed to be in a loving relationship with my father; it is literally who I was created to be, and who I am!! Free Will is one of those pieces of dross which fell away, and I'm fine with that.
To me, free will is the worst belief one can have. It takes away from God. If I am going to decrease I must give up my self which is thinking I can act on my own. Jesus said to DENY ONES SELF and to follow him.
(Titus 1:16) They profess that they know God; BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM.
How does one deny Christ through works? If we feel like we must work or do something on our own isn't that like denying that Christ did it ALL? Does Christ need our help?
Amen CHB...free will doctrine is of the devil.
In order to deny yourself, you must have the option to choose yourself.That requires that you have a will of your own. Denying yourself is about indulgence and sacrifice-"Nevertheless not my will but yours be done". This "choice" to sacrifice ones own benefit for the benifit of others and the service of God, requires a measure of freedom. I guess I should be upset that I hold, "the worst belief possible" but in my opinion, that is only your opinion, so it doesnt upset me at all for my own sake.
I would hope however that other folks who hold the promise of the "salvation of all" would not be offended by your opinion, if they happen to see the relationship between God's will and our will as I do. :o)
I guess that makes me a teacher of the devils doctrine eh?
Sorry eaglesway,
I wouldn't purposely offend you at all, I was thinking about myself when I use to believe we had free will. Please don't take anything I say as offensive. :HeartThrob: :girlheart: I just felt like that was the worse thing I had believed. There are things I believe that you probably think is the worst thing? You may even read one of them today. I am truly sorry if I offended you. I have learned a lot from your many posts.
CHB
What a great idea for a post CHB! I'll start it now :Peace2:
Quote from: EagleswayIn order to deny yourself, you must have the option to choose yourself.That requires that you have a will of your own. Denying yourself is about indulgence and sacrifice-"Nevertheless not my will but yours be done".
Yes, and in order to choose yourself, you must first know who you are.
Christ is the author and perfector of our faith.
We may not start out as much but as he brings us to our highest expression of ourself [which faith tells us he will] we will only seek more and more to serve him in partnership. It is our partnership with him which makes us perfect.
The word for 'God' is plural. We are [being made into] the Y'shuah elohiym, the gods of Christ, the anointed ones.
Anything less than that misses the mark.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
--1 Cor 15
You are right about drops of water into the river. But our oneness will not detract from our individuality. We are each unique as we share one body and one Spirit. Everything that he has created is an individual in its own right, the DNA different one from another even though they may look like the same thing. He will preserve the richness of that individuality which he himself has created.
1 Corinthians 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
You are to love, honor, and respect the person he has created you to be.
Now We are Free
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2o7vflIG58
Quote from: Molly on January 19, 2013, 10:28:18 PM
Quote from: EagleswayIn order to deny yourself, you must have the option to choose yourself.That requires that you have a will of your own. Denying yourself is about indulgence and sacrifice-"Nevertheless not my will but yours be done".
Yes, and in order to choose yourself, you must first know who you are.
Christ is the author and perfector of our faith.
We may not start out as much but as he brings us to our highest expression of ourself [which faith tells us he will] we will only seek more and more to serve him in partnership. It is our partnership with him which makes us perfect.
The word for 'God' is plural. We are [being made into] the Y'shuah elohiym, the gods of Christ, the anointed ones.
Anything less than that misses the mark.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
--1 Cor 15
You are right about drops of water into the river. But our oneness will not detract from our individuality. We are each unique as we share one body and one Spirit. Everything that he has created is an individual in its own right, the DNA different one from another even though they may look like the same thing. He will preserve the richness of that individuality which he himself has created.
1 Corinthians 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.
You are to love, honor, and respect the person he has created you to be.
Now We are Free
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2o7vflIG58
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 05:25:57 PM
I never said we are coming together to create God?
It's the logical end to the first statement. If I take away all the droplets for a river, there remains nothing but a river bed. Therefore if we all disappear, so does God. I was merely saying that because He was here before I was, I cannot possible be a part of Him, but remain a creation of Him.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 05:39:55 PM
How about God is like the ocean and we(all humans) when reconciled will be like a bucket of water thrown in all our droplets now being a part of the vastness.?
Ded, that still makes us the same material as God. Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?
QuoteDed, that still makes us the same material as God. Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?
I see a few differences.
1)Nirvana does not include Jesus Christ
2)Nirvana does not include us
I tried following this teaching for a while in my youth. I can understand your objection to it. Everything gets washed out in the great beyond. Might as well take drugs. :icon_jokercolor:
I know nothing about nirvana. I was trying to explain what I thought EW was saying to Micah. I'm not offended
God in us and us in God, both in spirit so of course not same material since it's immaterial :laughing7:
Brother(CHB), I am not offended. It is just that we need to realize people are coming into UR from all over the theological spectrum, and these secondary issues will continue to bring us into discussions where our understandings of certain concepts will differ due to our backgrounds.
I know there is a version of "free will" that leaves it all up to us and ignores calling and election, even denying God's ultimate sovereignty. Not everyone who use that term believes it in that extreme, even as not everyone who views the gospel from the "fulfilled view", does so in the same measures and degrees.
I try to be careful not to pigeon hole and categorize anyone, at least until I understand the "measures and degrees" of their perspective :o)
Quote from: Molly on January 19, 2013, 10:51:41 PM
QuoteDed, that still makes us the same material as God. Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?
I see a few differences.
1)Nirvana does not include Jesus Christ
2)Nirvana does not include us
I tried following this teaching for a while in my youth. I can understand your objection to it. Everything gets washed out in the great beyond. Might as well take drugs. :icon_jokercolor:
Thanks Molly:
By definition Christ would be God. There are many schools of thought that see Nirvana as the great all (or the great nothing, depending on how you look at it), in which case it would definitely include us.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 10:59:20 PM
I know nothing about nirvana. I was trying to explain what I thought EW was saying to Micah. I'm not offended
God in us and us in God, both in spirit so of course not same material since it's immaterial :laughing7:
OHHH tres drole. :laughing7:
The key difference between Nirvana and the kingdom of God is the blood of Jesus Christ.
No one will enter the ALL IN ALL until they have received the shed blood of Jesus Christ, in His name, and bowed the knee to His Lordship.
I guess if someone doesn't realize the enormity of sin or even that they sin at all (some feel if they haven't killed anyone that they are a "good person")then they feel they deserve heaven and no covering of sin is needed. They feel they don't have to repent because they haven't done anything wrong.
Some feel they deserve heaven because they are a "better" person than the adulterous TV preacher.
In any case, almost everyone that believes there is a heaven also believes they are "probably" going to go there.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 11:13:45 PM
I guess if someone doesn't realize the enormity os sin or even that they sin at all (boiled down to they haven't killed anyone)
they feel they deserve heaven and no propitiation is needed.
I'm sorry ded, I've read this sentence over and over; I even stopped to make a cup of tea. I have no idea what you mean. Could you type really slow, use small words, and maybe some visual aids, I think my stupid gene just won the game.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 19, 2013, 11:02:48 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 19, 2013, 10:51:41 PM
QuoteDed, that still makes us the same material as God. Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?
I see a few differences.
1)Nirvana does not include Jesus Christ
2)Nirvana does not include us
I tried following this teaching for a while in my youth. I can understand your objection to it. Everything gets washed out in the great beyond. Might as well take drugs. :icon_jokercolor:
Thanks Molly:
By definition Christ would be God. There are many schools of thought that see Nirvana as the great all (or the great nothing, depending on how you look at it), in which case it would definitely include us.
Of course, we would say Buddha's God would have to be Christ, but this was a non descript God, without a personality and of course, we also would lose our personality interacting with him at this high level of meditation--so this supposed Nirvana means leaving everything knowable [which is the illusion] for something not knowable. For me, it was a matter of losing both yourself and God.
We know our God. He has a personality. We have a relationship with him. He is himself and we are ourselves and we communicate and interact back and forth. It's a totally different thing.
I found I couldn't love an abstraction. And, for me, the joy is in the relationship with Christ.
Lets say for instance we do have free will, where would we have gotten it? God would have to instlll a free will within us I would think? Since we are clay in the hands of the potter and we are being molded for his good pleasure wouldn't it stand to reason that if God gave us free will he would be in control of it? How is that free? So, it would still be his will and not ours that we would be acting upon.
I remember reading something about this in an article by L Ray Smith or Eby that made perfect sense but cannot look for it right now. If I can find it I will post it later.
CHB
How could we enter into relationship with someone without free will?
Could we enter into relationship with Hitler? or Chairman Mao? or Stalin?
We would not be free with them to express ourselves. Say the wrong thing and you're dead.
Maybe it's hard to understand if you have come to God by fear instead of by volition.
People in fear are not free.
Does someone have to order you to love your babies? At our most natural we love them and want to be with them and want to do everything we can to protect them and secure their well being. You have to really mess a person up for that not to be true.
Quote from: CHB on January 20, 2013, 12:42:49 AM
Lets say for instance we do have free will, where would we have gotten it? God would have to instlll a free will within us I would think? Since we are clay in the hands of the potter and we are being molded for his good pleasure wouldn't it stand to reason that if God gave us free will he would be in control of it? How is that free? So, it would still be his will and not ours that we would be acting upon.
I remember reading something about this in an article by L Ray Smith or Eby that made perfect sense but cannot look for it right now. If I can find it I will post it later.
CHB
Yes, exactly, God would have to install it in us, or- create us in His image (He has free will)- but I am not saying that God does not interact on every level with us, including even the sons of disobedience(how can they disobey if they have no will?)
Also, I have never said that man has total sovereignty. As I see it he has freedom within a very large fence. When man tries too hard to break that fence he usually dies or gets saved.
And I don't claim to know how man's will(which is a better term than "free will" I think- jabcat turned me on to that) and the foreknowledge, predestination and election of God all work together- but I see clearly in the scriptures that they do.
I think to some extent we are on a "need to know" basis, and some things I do know how, but I read that they are both true. If I see two things in the scriptures, although they may seem to contradict- I usually assume that the truth is a hidden wisdom somewhere beyond the two poles of the paradox that is visible to me, or it is an issue of what I call, "measures and degrees"- but taking one pole or the other has never been an option for me- my thinking is built on what I see at face value in the scriptures- not saying I see it "right", just saying that's where I draw my reasoning.
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 01:34:19 AM
How could we enter into relationship with someone without free will?
Could we enter into relationship with Hitler? or Chairman Mao? or Stalin?
We would not be free with them to express ourselves. Say the wrong thing and you're dead.
:bigGrin: I'll accept we're required to make choices. and that man indeed has a will. I personally don't see it as, or call it "free". IMO, it has many constraints, influences, and limits. Thanks be to God.
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 01:34:19 AM
Does someone have to order you to love your babies? At our most natural we love them and want to be with them and want to do everything we can to protect them and secure their well being. You have to really mess a person up for that not to be true.
I see that as the hand, gift, and workings of God within us. One of his miracles He performs.
I'm somewhere in the middle of the
extremes of free will/all sovereign. I think we often get lost in semantics.
Semantics/schmemantics. :laughing7:
Quote from: JabI'll accept we're required to make choices. and that man indeed has a will. But I don't call it "free". IMO, it has many constraints and limits. Thanks be to God.
Maybe there is a difference, then, between free will and freedom. Maybe that is where this discussion derails.
I do know that we have an ever increasing freedom in Christ.
But, then, I tend to think of freedom as being more about a bird soaring because that is what birds love to do, than about 'choices.'
QuoteI see that as the hand, gift, and workings of God in us.
Yeah. I'm not expressing any of this very well. My point was that a happy mother is free to express her love for her baby in every respect. Just like being free to express our love for our God makes us happy. In some countries, the freedom for neither one exists.
And, the fact that we can spend a lot of our lives not knowing a love for God [some people never know it], shows that it is not a requirement of everyone. Just like having children is not for everyone.
So the Bible says it is impossible to please God without faith. Have I lost my freedom because God has given me the faith to believe in him? Or has he restored me to my highest purpose?
When a woman has her first child is she surprised by how much she loves him? And, does this enhance her life or detract from it? If she never had that baby, she wouldn't know what she was missing, would she?
Yet, we still have choices, and the right to make the wrong choice.
Jesus did have the choice to choose the cross or walk away from it.
But, his love and his joy at what it would mean compelled him to move forward.
If that were not true, the Spirit would not have mentioned it.
If he has freedom, so do we.
Good follow-up Molly. I had already typed something to post, but I'll put it at the end of my reply to you on this one. :thumbsup:
Yes, I do believe there's a difference between freedom and free will. Man has a will. God sets us free from the power of sin. Our reborn spirit doesn't sin, it's been set free. But IMO, our flesh is still at work, which can often enslave us, as well as, I don't believe God just totally turns us loose, at any point, without exerting any influence whatsoever in our life. So I personally don't see man's will as ever totally, completely, free. IMO, even making choices willingly, is still not totally free. Further IMO, if anything has a limitation at all, it may have some freedom attached to it or some responsibility attached and required, but again, I don't see that as free. Again though, maybe there are some semantics involved, as well as (to bring back a piece of an old discussion) labels may be a stumbling-block to true understanding of the workings and beliefs. :2c: I just believe God's hand is ALWAYS influencing my life. I may kick and scream and try to exert my own will, but the same Spirit that has set my spirit free, is the same Spirit that has made me both a friend and a slave to God (thankfully!) and compels me to follow Christ - often against what my own will would prefer.
----
So here's what I'd typed, and I believe it ties in.
I know it's hard (impossible?) to set doctrine based on one or sometimes, just a few scriptures.
On the one hand, there are multiple verses that show man is required to make choices. I personally that's what they show though, is about choices and man's will needing to be brought into subjection of God's will - not describing a "free will", i.e., without influence, constraints, boundaries and limits.
On the other hand, I believe to attempt to prove a totally "free will", one that man is totally, fully in control of - without any influence or direction from God (IMO, that would be free will) the following scrips must be reconciled somehow;
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Romans 9:16
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. Romans 9:18
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. Romans 11:32
Alright, that's my :2c:. Blessings all.
Too fast for me.
Here's the scripture that goes with my post.
..who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
--Heb 12:2
"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
--John 15:13
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 03:53:09 AM
Too fast for me.
Here's the scripture that goes with my post.
..who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
--Heb 12:2
"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
--John 15:13
Amen.
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2013, 03:15:19 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 01:34:19 AM
How could we enter into relationship with someone without free will?
Could we enter into relationship with Hitler? or Chairman Mao? or Stalin?
We would not be free with them to express ourselves. Say the wrong thing and you're dead.
:bigGrin: I'll accept we're required to make choices. and that man indeed has a will. I personally don't see it as, or call it "free". IMO, it has many constraints, influences, and limits. Thanks be to God.
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 01:34:19 AM
Does someone have to order you to love your babies? At our most natural we love them and want to be with them and want to do everything we can to protect them and secure their well being. You have to really mess a person up for that not to be true.
I see that as the hand, gift, and workings of God within us. One of his miracles He performs.
I'm somewhere in the middle of the extremes of free will/all sovereign. I think we often get lost in semantics.
Semantics/schmemantics. :laughing7:
I have written an awful lot of stuff to say that :o) Thanks James :gimmefive:
Quote from: Jab
I don't believe God just totally turns us loose, at any point, without exerting any influence whatsoever in our life.
So I personally don't see man's will as ever totally, completely, free. IMO, even making choices willingly, is still not totally free
If that were true, how did I manage to make some horrible choices that caused my poor guardian angels to gnash their teeth and tear their hair out? :laughing7:
Why does the father allow the prodigal son to slop the pigs instead of rushing out and kidnapping him and bringing him home?
And here's another one that goes with mine. :gimmefive:
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? Romans 9:21
So one way I can conceptualize it? God's on top of the hierarchy, we're down below. His will is supreme, He's given us some room, within specific parameters He has set, to move around and learn and grow, make decisions and choices. All with the view in mind of a)accomplishing His purposes, and b) to bring us all into accord with His will - which is, that all men be saved. :thumbsup:
The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.
The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.
I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God :doh:
What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)
God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.
When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 03:59:14 AM
Quote from: Jab
I don't believe God just totally turns us loose, at any point, without exerting any influence whatsoever in our life.
So I personally don't see man's will as ever totally, completely, free. IMO, even making choices willingly, is still not totally free
If that were true, how did I manage to make some horrible choices that caused my poor guardian angels to gnash their teeth and tear their hair out? :laughing7:
Why does the father allow the prodigal son to slop the pigs instead of rushing out and kidnapping him and bringing him home?
:) Did they ever completely leave you? Did God totally let you go, or did He bring you back? The father allowing the prodigal son to do what he did, IMO, in no way shows "free will". It does, IMO, show that the son was required to make choices, there were consequences, he learned from them. Also, notice that we both said "allowed". (Operating within parameters set by the f/Father). :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 04:08:48 AM
The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.
The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.
I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God :doh:
What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)
God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.
When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.
I know. I think you're personally somewhere in the middle with me.
"Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. And I'm wonderin' what it is I should do...Brothers to the left of me, sisters to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you.." :skittles:
When you are trying to establish the extreme, people in the middle are an irritation(my function- irritant)..........
But sometimes the people in the middle are holding the center, so the people out on the edges can explore the extremes HAHAHA.
In the end, we will all be in one mind and one accord, and we will know as we are known :o)
Amen to that. Yeah, I see the extremes as being, "God is so totally in control, man can't make a move without God having made them do it", or, "it's totally up to us whether we serve God or not, or whether we choose Him", etc.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 04:08:48 AM
The definition of free will varies from person to person.
Yeah, but I'm obsessive-compulsive. My bad. You know how some people just love cilantro? It may generally be a very good herb, but I just personally hate it. Don't
ever put any of it in my food. :pointlaugh:
yes. However, when in Mexico, the cilantro is known as cilantro no matter what you call it, so when talking to Mexicans calling it anything else creates the need for another big long explanation. At the end of it the intelligent Mexican will say, "Oh You mean cilantro"
HAHAHA
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 04:22:29 AM
another big long explanation. At the end of it the intelligent Mexican will say, "Oh You mean cilantro"
HAHAHA
Or maybe that intelligent Mexican could be calling something by the wrong name. :angel4:
Maybe the gringo was really trying to describe basil. :laugh:
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2013, 04:10:06 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 04:08:48 AM
The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.
The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.
I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God :doh:
What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)
God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.
When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.
I know. I think you're personally somewhere in the middle with me.
IMO - what seems like
our own choices, are really
"caused" choices used by God for His purposes:
- Genesis 45:4-5 "And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life."
When all was said and done, in the end Joseph saved his entire family from certain death in a famine. At the end of it all Joseph, a type of Jesus Christ, gives us the
reason and purpose for the evil choices of his
"brethren":
- Genesis 50:20-21 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much [ALL] people alive. Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them."
And we find the same situation with Samson:
- Judges 14:1-3 "Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines. So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, 'I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.' Then his father and mother said to him, 'Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?' And Samson said to his father, 'Get her for me, for she pleases me well.'"
Here we go:
- Judges 14:4 "But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel."
Was Samson's self-willed, disobedient decision to marry a 'daughter of the Philistines' really
"after the counsel of God's own will?" (Ephesians 1:11). Here is the blunt, straight-up answer from the Word of God:
- "But his father and his mother knew not that it [Samson's stubborn, disobedient self-will] WAS OF THE LORD, THAT HE SOUGHT AN OCCASION AGAINST THE PHILISTINES..." (Judges 14:4).
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2013, 04:19:18 AM
Yeah, but I'm obsessive-compulsive. My bad. You know how some people just love cilantro? It may generally be a very good herb, but I just personally hate it. Don't ever put any of it in my food. :pointlaugh:
Okay, I'll send you some Chinese Parsley, I think you will just love it. :pointlaugh:
Quote from: Illuin on January 20, 2013, 04:33:43 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2013, 04:10:06 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 04:08:48 AM
The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.
The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.
I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God :doh:
What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)
God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.
When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.
I know. I think you're personally somewhere in the middle with me.
IMO - what seems like our own choices, are really "caused" choices used by God for His purposes:
- Genesis 45:4-5 "And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life."
When all was said and done, in the end Joseph saved his entire family from certain death in a famine. At the end of it all Joseph, a type of Jesus Christ, gives us the reason and purpose for the evil choices of his "brethren":
- Genesis 50:20-21 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much [ALL] people alive. Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them."
And we find the same situation with Samson:
- Judges 14:1-3 "Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines. So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, 'I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.' Then his father and mother said to him, 'Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?' And Samson said to his father, 'Get her for me, for she pleases me well.'"
Here we go:
- Judges 14:4 "But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel."
Was Samson's self-willed, disobedient decision to marry a 'daughter of the Philistines' really "after the counsel of God's own will?" (Ephesians 1:11). Here is the blunt, straight-up answer from the Word of God:
- "But his father and his mother knew not that it [Samson's stubborn, disobedient self-will] WAS OF THE LORD, THAT HE SOUGHT AN OCCASION AGAINST THE PHILISTINES..." (Judges 14:4).
I see no disagreement here. God causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will(Eph 1). The Lord may use any and all of our decisions, even those He lets us make freely- and does.
God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
Even our mistakes abound in gracious recovery because of His great love for us.
That God uses us as we are does not mean that He causes evrything we do.
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
(Jas 1:12-14)
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 04:34:18 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2013, 04:19:18 AM
Yeah, but I'm obsessive-compulsive. My bad. You know how some people just love cilantro? It may generally be a very good herb, but I just personally hate it. Don't ever put any of it in my food. :pointlaugh:
Okay, I'll send you some Chinese Parsley, I think you will just love it. :pointlaugh:
LOL. Alright!!!
Quote from: ewGod causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
I read that scripture for years before I noticed the compound sentence, "and are called according to his purpose."
So doesn't that imply that you may not be called according to his purpose and just messing up all on your own?
My second question is just as strange--
Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault?
This is the problem I see with extreme determinism [no free will].
Well, we get to say it, that don't make it true ;o)
"Extreme determinism" is a good term for what I reject as the polar extreme of God's sovereign will.
Notice, in Ephesians 1 it says God causes "all things" to work according to the counsel of His will- His kind intention(eudokia-good will) which He purposed in Christ. To me thats the big fence, within which thereis a measure of freedom through which we learn called stewardship, called discipleship, for the pupose of growing up sons.
Also, In Romans it says "who love God and are called according to His purpose"
Love is first :o)
Everyone of us is called according to His purpose, which is summed up in the two great commandments, which are both about love.
IMO-If we love God, we ARE called according to His purpose.
In the ultimate sense- all things are working together for the good of everyone(God loves evryone). In the short term sense, the household of faith reaps an immediate benefit of grace and the Father is intimately involved in everything we are and do.
It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly
free.
- John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Quote from: Illuin on January 20, 2013, 05:42:10 AM
It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.
- John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
That is an interesting opinion. Extreme and IMO, incorrect.
The truth that makes one free is intimate fellowship with the truth Himself, Jesus.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 05:45:28 AM
Quote from: Illuin on January 20, 2013, 05:42:10 AM
It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.
- John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
That is an interesting opinion. Extreme and IMO, incorrect.
The truth that makes one free is intimate fellowship with the truth Himself, Jesus.
Exactly, intimate fellowship with the Living Word of God - the Way,
the Truth, and the Life. An "untruth" is not in fellowship with Christ, and can only lead to bondage, not freedom.
Your doctrinal perspective is not the definition of truth. The person of Jesus is. You may capitalize the word truth, but His ways and the essence of His life are just as much a part of the truth, who is a person.
Untruth is also the improper emphasis of a particular perspective. Yours is a particular perspective and you are welcome to express it and stand on it.
I, and anyone else who disagrees is welcome to question it.
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2013, 06:07:50 AM
My moments of greatest freedom - and peace - are those times of weakness, when I realize I'm unable within myself; when He brings me to more fully trust Him.
One of the verses God has been showing me for a very long time (in fact I got it on a plaque from some friends when I graduated High School) is "Be still and know that I am God..." Psalm 46:10.
When I was taking some Bible courses I thought it would be neat to look it up in Latin (everything seems so much more wise when you say it in another language: people think you is really learned good). Well, I couldn't find it. I tried every word I could think of for still and know ... sorry, not there. In the Vulgate it was attached to another psalm, and it didn't say be still, it read be empty (vacate et videte).
Nay nay said I, Jerome what have you done? I decided to look it up in the Hebrew, and guess what ... are you guessing? It actually says, be so empty and weary (like after a brutal day of exhausting work and you can't walk another step), and you will see that I am God. In other words, when you get to the point where your thinking can't interfere with your seeing, you will plainly see that He is God. Believe it or not, I got chills up and down my spine when I read this. When you are just too tired, or too weak to get in your own way, you get a glimpse of God.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 06:42:59 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 20, 2013, 06:07:50 AM
My moments of greatest freedom - and peace - are those times of weakness, when I realize I'm unable within myself; when He brings me to more fully trust Him.
One of the verses God has been showing me for a very long time (in fact I got it on a plaque from some friends when I graduated High School) is "Be still and know that I am God..." Psalm 46:10.
When I was taking some Bible courses I thought it would be neat to look it up in Latin (everything seems so much more wise when you say it in another language: people think you is really learned good). Well, I couldn't find it. I tried every word I could think of for still and know ... sorry, not there. In the Vulgate it was attached to another psalm, and it didn't say be still, it read be empty (vacate et videte).
Nay nay said I, Jerome what have you done? I decided to look it up in the Hebrew, and guess what ... are you guessing? It actually says, be so empty and weary (like after a brutal day of exhausting work and you can't walk another step), and you will see that I am God. In other words, when you get to the point where your thinking can't interfere with your seeing, you will plainly see that He is God. Believe it or not, I got chills up and down my spine when I read this. When you are just too tired, or too weak to get in your own way, you get a glimpse of God.
:angelharp:
Less of me, more of Him. Amen.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 06:34:19 AM
Your doctrinal perspective is not the definition of truth. The person of Jesus is. You may capitalize the word truth, but His ways and the essence of His life are just as much a part of the truth, who is a person.
Untruth is also the improper emphasis of a particular perspective. Yours is a particular perspective and you are welcome to express it and stand on it.
I, and anyone else who disagrees is welcome to question it.
I'm really not even sure what we are debating here, to be honest. :Chinscratch: I would ask you to refer to my
post #273 for my
"so-called" doctrinal position. Of course Jesus
'IS' the Truth, and I think it's safe to say that we are both beyond the milk here. But this has nothing to do with the point I was making. I see this doctrine
"free-will" as a no-brainer. Maybe it's just me, but Scripturally speaking, I see free-will as being literally impossible. If you see this as extreme, I don't know what to tell you. :dontknow:
- Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL."
"All things" cannot be being worked after mankind's free will and at the same time being worked
"after the counsel of God's own will." There is no such thing as
two free wills working
"all things." It is not possible.
How can God have
"a lamb slain from the foundation of the world," and know in advance about our
"calling in Christ... before the world began," if He had not already predestined Adam, and every one of us
"in Adam" to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Because of this doctrine of
'free will' Adam, who we are told could have obeyed God
'of his own free will,' chose instead to disobey God and eat of the fruit. Such doctrine would have you to believe that because God asked Adam
"Where art thou?" that God did this because He didn't have a clue where Adam was.
Of course this is not true. God knew precisely where Adam was. And the fact that God told Adam not to eat of the fruit does not mean that He did not know exactly what Adam was going to do. He did know exactly what Adam was going to do.
He had already prepared the sacrifice for the sin that He already knew Adam was about to commit.
Do we all make decisions every day of our lives? Of course. However, as was mentioned in my previous post concerning
Samson and
Joseph (#273), God's Word illustrates that these choices that we make are
NOT free of
the influence of outside factors. The Scriptures do
not deny that we have
a will, but
do deny that we have a
"free will." Our will is only as free as
"clay in the Potter's hand."And as to my above quote concerning true
"freedom," the doctrine of
'free-will' is akin to that one pivotal
'light bulb' in a
string of Christmas lights, that, when faulty or damaged,
ALL the other light bulbs in the string also won't light. It is one bad apple that spoils the whole barrel; the little bit of leaven that leavens the whole lump. A large majority of the false doctrines - along with those
"in bondage" to those same false doctrines - are the
direct and/or
indirect result of the doctrine of free-will. :wacko2:
Well brother :o)..... I am not saying, nor have I ever said, man's will is "free of outside influences". In fact, I don't know anyone who defines the man's will, or free will, in that way.
All I have said is that God has given man a measure of free will within certain parameters in order to grow "sons of god" to reign with Christ over the Fathers estate.
I have read your posts completely. Perhaps you ought to read mine before you define my position in ways that are not accurate.
There is a balance between a view in which God determines every outcome by micro managing every thought and action of man, and a view in which man has been given a "measure of faith" as a stewardship in which he must grow in maturity and discipleship.
This balance is what I am sharing- not some view where man is "free from any outside influence".
There is a tendency to inject "ridiculous extremes" onto another persons point of view when it is different than yours. It is not really a productive way to communicate and grow.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 09:52:42 AM
Well brother :o)..... I am not saying, nor have I ever said, man's will is "free of outside influences". In fact, I don't know anyone who defines the man's will, or free will, in that way.
All I have said is that God has given man a measure of free will within certain parameters in order to grow "sons of god" to reign with Christ over the Fathers estate.
I have read your posts completely. Perhaps you ought to read mine before you define my position in ways that are not accurate.
There is a balance between a view in which God determines every outcome by micro managing every thought and action of man, and a view in which man has been given a "measure of faith" as a stewardship in which he must grow in maturity and discipleship.
This balance is what I am sharing- not some view where man is "free from any outside influence".
There is a tendency to inject "ridiculous extremes" onto another persons point of view when it is different than yours. It is not really a productive way to communicate and grow.
Pardon me? I most certainly did not inject anything into your point of view, I wasn't speaking about your point of view, nor did I define your point of view, and I do not appreciate the accusation. That is twice now that you have misrepresented my words and accused me of saying something I did not. I was speaking to no one in particular and simply discussing matters dealing with the topic of the thread. In fact, it was you who incorrectly (and smugly) defined my position, not I. It would seem that perhaps you are seeing a speck in your brother's eye that may in turn be the reflection of your own speck.
Just about any dog I could get would love me. Dogs are built that way with few exceptions-- bred or made to love their master.
However, I could do things to change that outcome. I could be a brutal and cruel master and turn a dog who was determined to love me into a dog who hates me. That is more my choice than the dog's choice. Do I have the free will to do that? Does he have the free will to hate me if I do?
Quote from: Illuin on January 20, 2013, 05:42:10 AM
It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.
- John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
That's kind of a conundrum.
When you realize you are not free, you are free?
But--
you have been called to live in freedom --Gal 5:13
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 04:52:15 AM
Quote from: ewGod causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
I read that scripture for years before I noticed the compound sentence, "and are called according to his purpose."
So doesn't that imply that you may not be called according to his purpose and just messing up all on your own?
My second question is just as strange--
Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault?
This is the problem I see with extreme determinism [no free will].
"Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault? "
No, but when we are brought to the wisdom and understanding that God is the CAUSE of all things, then we are free.
Sorry, I don't get that.
Free of what? Responsibility? :dontknow:
But I don't want to be free of responsibility.
It keeps me on my toes.
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 04:52:15 AM
Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault?
This is the problem I see with extreme determinism [no free will].
Are we sure Adam is blaming God when he says this? Could Adam be saying something like ... "the woman you brought to the party knocked it over, maybe you could take her back"? Does it have to be Adam blaming God for the result?
Quote from: Molly on January 20, 2013, 02:23:49 PM
That's kind of a conundrum.
When you realize you are not free, you are free?
I've heard this in another context Molly. Igor Stravinsky said it was when his music was most structured, that it was most free.
Illium, you quoted me in the post. So it appeared that you were speaking to me.
I once heard it said that, "God leaves the specks for people with logs to stumble over". We all have our specks and logs.
There is no need ot get all up in arms, I was just responding in kind to your post. This is a discussion blog. If you are quoting me in your post, I assume you are responding to me in some measure, so I responded to you. If I misinterpreted what you were saying i apologize, but let's not be coy, let's just stand behind what we say and agree to disagree :o)
If there is no human 'will' capable of determining the outcome of anything in a meaningful way, would it make a difference? If it would make a difference, why?
If God were to come and me one day and say "You don't have what people call free-will; I created you to love you and have you love me. I created the universe because it pleased me to do so, and I created you because it pleased me to so as well." The only reason I can think of that might be upsetting is that my ego would have taken a hit.
A few months ago I told a friend that I had come to the realization that I was loved, and cherished, and valued, but what I was not was necessary. Again, the only reason I could think of that that might upset someone is that it is an ego hit.
Do we have to be necessary, or relevant? God created me because it pleased Him to do so. God is sui generis, I am not. God is God, I am not. Is it so frightening to think that in and of myself, I don't matter? Is it so frightening to think what I do isn't some how needed or important?
A child may be given a tiny plastic steering wheel in a car seat, and may look out the window and turn that wheel, but no one except the child thinks s/he is actually driving the car. I matter because God says so, and for no other reason. I don't need 'free-will' anymore to make me feel important, or relevant. I am important and relevant to God, because He is who is, not because I am who I am. I guess in the same way all gold is gold, all dross is dross.
Altho I understand your point- we are not perhaps necessary to the universe of other worlds and other lives outside our own in the sense that God is, for we are certainly not God, but..............
If the entire universe of "beings" is of a fabric(as I believe, which means nothing either LOL, but if it is :o), we are all interwoven. What child would not be devastated to know they were not important to their father and mother and brother and sisters and friends.
I think the bigger hit to the ego is that we are important, but we are not always given to understand how- so that God recieves the glory when we perservere in love because He has asked us to, even without our having glimpsed the reward.
You may capitalize the word truth, but His ways and the essence of His life are just as much a part of the truth, who is a person.
Jesus and him crucified is all I know.
The essence of his live were for those you partake in eating his flesh
and drinking his blood. That is the only way to know him.
You can receive the gift but you can't be the gift or act like the gift.
IMO Her Is a real conundrum free will is what has held the
church in the believe of eternal torment. Untill they are set free from this mind set
they can not be free.
And as to my above quote concerning true "freedom," the doctrine of 'free-will' is akin to that one pivotal 'light bulb' in a string of Christmas lights, that, when faulty or damaged, ALL the other light bulbs in the string also won't light. It is one bad apple that spoils the whole barrel; the little bit of leaven that leavens the whole lump. A large majority of the false doctrines - along with those "in bondage" to those same false doctrines - are the direct and/or indirect result of the doctrine of free-will.
« Last Edit: Today at 09:40:16 AM by Illuin »
Wow, the lightbulb analogy is so good! That just blew my mind! (Hopefully not a bulb though.... :eek: )
WELL..THE FAILING PART...REALIZING BY YOUR OWN WILL YOU CAN DO NOTHING..IS THE VANITY YOU WERE
SUBJECTED TO[THAT NO FLESH BOAST] FOR BEFORE EITHER ONE HAD DONE EVIL OR GOOD..IN ORDER THAT
THE CHOOSING WOULD BE DEPENDANT ON GOD..AND NOT ON HIM WISHING OR DESIRING...........[OR MAN'S WILL]
AND NOT GOD'S.
AND REGARDING FREE WILL DOCTRINE BEING AN ERROR.......UPON WHICH MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS/ERRORS
COME FROM. THIS IS TRUE IN ANY MATTER AND WE ARE TOLD TO BE CAREFUL HOW WE BUILD..FOR STRAW/WOOD ETC
IS PERISHABLE NOT THE ETERNAL..AND IT DOES CAUSE LOSS OF YOUR PORTION IN THE HOLY CITY[LIGHT]
ACTUALLY WHEN HE COMES AND WAGES WAR IN RIGHTEOUS AND TRUTH THE SWORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH
SEPERATES AND DESTROYS THE FALSE PROPHET FROM THE TRUE,THE BEAST/CARNAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL
HIS DOING THESE THINGS FOR THOSE WHO HE TEACHES IN THIS REALM...AS PREPARING THEM TO RULE AND JUDGE
RIGHTLY..IT IS PARAMOUNT THEY REALIZE IT WAS NOT OF THEIR OWN WILL..BUT HIS IN THEM CAUSING THEM TO WISH AND
TO DO HIS WILL...YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOUR OWN WILL[VANITY] YOU MUST REMAIN IN HIS WILL/FATHER'S WILL
TO HAVE LIFE[YOU CAN DO NOTHING[VANITY] OF YOURSELVES...REMAIN IN ME..THEN YOU CAN BEAR FRUIT
Awesome.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 06:14:26 PM
Illium, you quoted me in the post. So it appeared that you were speaking to me.
I once heard it said that, "God leaves the specks for people with logs to stumble over". We all have our specks and logs.
If you are quoting me in your post, I assume you are responding to me in some measure, so I responded to you. If I misinterpreted what you were saying i apologize
Your assumption was incorrect. But I certainly accept your apology on the grounds that we keep the discussion focused on the doctrines themselves from now on, rather than the person.
If you disagree; refute it Scripturally, not personally.:dbook: You can critique the very same points by Scripturally testing the
doctrinal positions themselves rather than impugning
the person who brought up that doctrinal position.
Back to topic - :thanks:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 20, 2013, 07:49:57 PM
If the entire universe of "beings" is of a fabric(as I believe, which means nothing either LOL, but if it is :o), we are all interwoven. What child would not be devastated to know they were not important to their father and mother and brother and sisters and friends.
I didn't say we weren't important, I said
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 06:37:12 PM
I am important and relevant to God, because He is who is, not because I am who I am.
I am desperately important to God, but it is God who makes me important, I am not important because of myself.
Quote from: sheila on January 20, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
WELL..THE FAILING PART...REALIZING BY YOUR OWN WILL YOU CAN DO NOTHING..IS THE VANITY YOU WERE
SUBJECTED TO[THAT NO FLESH BOAST] FOR BEFORE EITHER ONE HAD DONE EVIL OR GOOD..IN ORDER THAT
THE CHOOSING WOULD BE DEPENDANT ON GOD..AND NOT ON HIM WISHING OR DESIRING...........[OR MAN'S WILL]
AND NOT GOD'S.
AND REGARDING FREE WILL DOCTRINE BEING AN ERROR.......UPON WHICH MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS/ERRORS
COME FROM. THIS IS TRUE IN ANY MATTER AND WE ARE TOLD TO BE CAREFUL HOW WE BUILD..FOR STRAW/WOOD ETC
IS PERISHABLE NOT THE ETERNAL..AND IT DOES CAUSE LOSS OF YOUR PORTION IN THE HOLY CITY[LIGHT]
ACTUALLY WHEN HE COMES AND WAGES WAR IN RIGHTEOUS AND TRUTH THE SWORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH
SEPERATES AND DESTROYS THE FALSE PROPHET FROM THE TRUE,THE BEAST/CARNAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL
HIS DOING THESE THINGS FOR THOSE WHO HE TEACHES IN THIS REALM...AS PREPARING THEM TO RULE AND JUDGE
RIGHTLY..IT IS PARAMOUNT THEY REALIZE IT WAS NOT OF THEIR OWN WILL..BUT HIS IN THEM CAUSING THEM TO WISH AND
TO DO HIS WILL...YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOUR OWN WILL[VANITY] YOU MUST REMAIN IN HIS WILL/FATHER'S WILL
TO HAVE LIFE[YOU CAN DO NOTHING[VANITY] OF YOURSELVES...REMAIN IN ME..THEN YOU CAN BEAR FRUIT
Sheila, I'm sorry that seems self contradictory, could you explain paragraph two in light of paragraph three? I know I missed something, maybe could help me see it.
SURE...COULD YOU BE MORE PRECISE WHAT YOU SEE AS CONTRADICTORY........
Quote from: Illuin on January 20, 2013, 05:42:10 AM
It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.
- John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Yes!!! amen. As long as we feel we have free will we feel we have to DO something that makes us to be in bondage. Free will is a WORK in and of itself.
chb
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain Sheila, I appreciate this.
Quote from: sheila on January 20, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
AND REGARDING FREE WILL DOCTRINE BEING AN ERROR.......UPON WHICH MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS/ERRORS
COME FROM
This seems like you are agreeing that there is free-will.
Quote from: sheila on January 20, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
TO HAVE LIFE[YOU CAN DO NOTHING[VANITY] OF YOURSELVES...REMAIN IN ME..THEN YOU CAN BEAR FRUIT
This seems like you are denying that there is free-will.
Could you please show me what I missed?
Quote from: CHB on January 20, 2013, 10:34:58 PM
Yes!!! amen. As long as we feel we have free will we feel we have to DO something that makes us to be in bondage. Free will is a WORK in and of itself.
chb
HUH? :Chinscratch:
WELL..I JUST LOST A WHOLE POST!! WHERE IS FREE WILL.. WHEN YOU ARE SUBJECTED TO VANITY? WHERE IS FREE WILL
WHEN,YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME,BUT I CHOSE YOU?
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 06:37:12 PM
If there is no human 'will' capable of determining the outcome of anything in a meaningful way, would it make a difference? If it would make a difference, why?
If God were to come and me one day and say "You don't have what people call free-will; I created you to love you and have you love me. I created the universe because it pleased me to do so, and I created you because it pleased me to so as well." The only reason I can think of that might be upsetting is that my ego would have taken a hit.
A few months ago I told a friend that I had come to the realization that I was loved, and cherished, and valued, but what I was not was necessary. Again, the only reason I could think of that that might upset someone is that it is an ego hit.
Do we have to be necessary, or relevant? God created me because it pleased Him to do so. God is sui generis, I am not. God is God, I am not. Is it so frightening to think that in and of myself, I don't matter? Is it so frightening to think what I do isn't some how needed or important?
A child may be given a tiny plastic steering wheel in a car seat, and may look out the window and turn that wheel, but no one except the child thinks s/he is actually driving the car. I matter because God says so, and for no other reason. I don't need 'free-will' anymore to make me feel important, or relevant. I am important and relevant to God, because He is who is, not because I am who I am. I guess in the same way all gold is gold, all dross is dross.
But you do matter. You, as the individual that you are, matter to God.
Look at the birds. They don't plant or harvest or store food in barns, for your heavenly Father feeds them. And aren't you far more valuable to him than they are?
--Mat 6:26
Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. Before you were born, I set you apart for my holy purpose.--Jer 1:5
Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
Psalm 139:16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Psalm 1:6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.
1 Corinthians 8:3 But the man who loves God is known by God.
Quote from: Molly on January 21, 2013, 12:27:18 AM
But you do matter. You, as the individual that you are, matter to God.
But that's what I said Molly ...
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 06:37:12 PM
I matter because God says so, and for no other reason.
I would think you matter because you are you. Do we all forget that we were "created" by the Father?
Quote from: sheila on January 21, 2013, 12:11:22 AM
WELL..I JUST LOST A WHOLE POST!! WHERE IS FREE WILL.. WHEN YOU ARE SUBJECTED TO VANITY? WHERE IS FREE WILL
WHEN,YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME,BUT I CHOSE YOU?
:o)
When you were chosen to become FREE and to set the WHOLE CREATION FREE AS WELL :o)
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 10:38:52 PM
Quote from: CHB on January 20, 2013, 10:34:58 PM
Yes!!! amen. As long as we feel we have free will we feel we have to DO something that makes us to be in bondage. Free will is a WORK in and of itself.
chb
HUH? :Chinscratch:
I think I understand this but it is really hard for me to explain. Hope this makes sense.
Free will is associated with works. Anytime you have free will you are on your own so to speak because "free will" means without restraint. Anytime the scriptures seem to say it is our wills that make something happen then it comes down to works. If we have works then we are under bondage.
Notice: CHOOSE this day. WORK out your own salvation. He that OVERCOMETH. I could go on and on.
Go back to Cain and Able. Cain WORKED with his own two hands to produce a sacrifice to God. Able used the sacrifice that God provided. You might not think that this is relevant but I see a works verses grace in action here.
CHB
Free will does not necessarily mean without restraint. Nor does it mean you are on your own. I may guide my child into making sensible choices, without totally taking over his decision making. I can stop him at certain points where I deem it necessary, in order to prevent his hurting himself or someone else. Yet, if I make every decision for him- he will never learn anything, nor will he be able to choose, or create, any other destiny than something I make him pursue.
This, to me, is not the nature of God's sovereign will.
My will is free within certain limitations. For instance- I do not choose to die. So what! I will die. I can choose not to pray or to pray- God will not force my hand. I will reap the benefits of my work, or I will lay down and sleep and starve- up to me.
God will not pick me up by the scruff of my neck and put a shovel in my hand. He may lead someone towards me who is hiring diggers. I can choose to work or not. I can choose to love my enemies or I can choose to hate them. I am free in regards to all these things.
Choose ye this day who you shall serve. No don't, you can't, you have "no free will"- Draw near to God and He will draw near to you- No you can't, you have no free will.
There are measures and degrees of freedom and bondage. IMO, We are moving towards total freedom because God set the wheels in motion aions ago that will bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.He tends to His work every day, drawing, leading, at times compelling - and it is all beyond the scope of our full understanding- seen through a glass darkly. IMO we will understand it better by and by :o)
Quote from: eaglesway
God set the wheels in motion aions ago that will bring the whole creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Absolutely!! This is the answer to it all.
CHB
IMO, people obviously have all sorts of definitions and thoughts about what "free will" is. For me, personally, if a will is truly free, it has absolutely no constraints. It's totally up to the individual. I believe hard-core Armenian [label :punish:] free will believers see it that way - until perhaps "pinned down" on what they really mean in light of God's sovereignty. Many folks then explain, "well, I believe we have "free will" to this or that point, then God..." I do believe there's a large group in mainstream that stick with it though, by saying "it's your choice to go to hell. You didn't want God in your life. He didn't send you there, you sent yourself there". :thumbdown:
But many do use it for various shades and degrees of describing man's will, i.e. our ability given and allowed by God to make certain choices, while also taking into account that God intervenes, influences, and ultimately does "get His way", etc. (eaglesway for example)
I've said before, I like to describe it simply as man's will and God's will, and how those interact. I find it interesting that since we've decided to "allow" this on the boards, we often seem stuck on trying to describe what we really believe, and terms still get in the way. I believe it must truly be one of the most divisive, hardest to explain doctrines in the church. Of course, probably still not even close to the understanding of God saving all. :2c: :dunno2:
Quote from: VineBranch on January 21, 2013, 12:47:18 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 21, 2013, 12:27:18 AM
But you do matter. You, as the individual that you are, matter to God.
But that's what I said Molly ...
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 06:37:12 PM
I matter because God says so, and for no other reason.
well, what other reason is there?
You say this is a blow to your ego? Is there another reason you matter that would be better?
I've been thinking. I'd guess we might be surprised to realize how much most of us really believe similarly about this topic.
Given that there are many possible various degrees of the following, does anyone disagree with,
man makes choices
man has a will
God is in control
God has a will
God influences man's life
God's will will ultimately be done?
IMO, to not believe any of those, takes a pretty extreme view either way. :2c:
Man's will may be more tied to the flesh.
It's certainly influenced by the flesh.
So maybe it is more of a carnal thing.
I still make decisions and choices.
But, now, it seems, my choices are more influenced by God.
Certainly by my understanding of God's wishes.
And, my life is full of much more peace.
I do not feel, however, that I am on autopilot, with someone else making the choices.
I do feel, however, that someone else, [someone good], is influencing the outcome.
Quote from: Molly on January 21, 2013, 03:55:50 AM
Man's will may be more tied to the flesh.
It's certainly influenced by the flesh.
So maybe it is more of a carnal thing.
I still make decisions and choices.
But, now, it seems, my choices are more influenced by God.
Certainly by my understanding of God's wishes.
And, my life is full of much more peace.
I do not feel, however, that I am on autopilot, with someone else making the choices.
I do feel, however, that someone else, [someone good], is influencing the outcome.
:first:
Quote from: CHB on January 21, 2013, 01:17:32 AM
Free will is associated with works. Anytime you have free will you are on your own so to speak because "free will" means without restraint. Anytime the scriptures seem to say it is our wills that make something happen then it comes down to works. If we have works then we are under bondage.
Notice: CHOOSE this day. WORK out your own salvation. He that OVERCOMETH. I could go on and on.
Go back to Cain and Able. Cain WORKED with his own two hands to produce a sacrifice to God. Able used the sacrifice that God provided. You might not think that this is relevant but I see a works verses grace in action here.
If I choose NOT to produce a work, would that then disqualify what I do as an aspect of Free-Will? Is this something akin to the physics definition of work: no movement, no work, regardless of energy spent.
Quote from: Molly on January 21, 2013, 02:45:14 AM
You say this is a blow to your ego? Is there another reason you matter that would be better?
With all due respect Molly, that's not what I said. What I said was "The only reason I can think of that might be upsetting is that my ego would have taken a hit".
I didn't say it was blow to my ego. I speculated that if the situation were to create offence, the reason would be that there was a blow to someone's ego?
Quote from: jabcat on January 21, 2013, 03:19:44 AM
I've been thinking. I'd guess we might be surprised to realize how much most of us really believe similarly about this topic.
Given that there are many possible various degrees of the following, does anyone disagree with,
man makes choices
man has a will
God is in control
God has a will
God influences man's life
God's will will ultimately be done?
IMO, to not believe any of those, takes a pretty extreme view either way. :2c:
Party Pooper:
I was still enjoying the show. I have three sandwiches left in this picnic and you go and get all practical and logical on us. Harumph. :sigh:
:Oops:
Ah, I imagine it'll carry right on along. :)
Quote from: jabcat on January 21, 2013, 03:19:44 AM
I've been thinking. I'd guess we might be surprised to realize how much most of us really believe similarly about this topic.
Given that there are many possible various degrees of the following, does anyone disagree with,
man makes choices
man has a will
God is in control
God has a will
God influences man's life
God's will will ultimately be done?
IMO, to not believe any of those, takes a pretty extreme view either way. :2c:
Reminds me of Jacob and Esau. God influenced both lives, which led Esau down a path of hating his brother, however the end result after many years: Esau ran to Jacob, in a act of not only forgiveness, but
love. What does Jacob say? "If I have found favor in your eyes, accept this gift from me. For to see your face is like
seeing the face of God,"
This reminds me of the prodigal son story. Interesting to note that Jacob submits himself to Esau by bowing down seven times, similar to how the son was wanting to submit himself as a servant to the father.
My point is this "If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother." John Chap 4:20
The will of God is like a force, it is the love we have for others, by loving them and forgiving them we are doing Gods will. However it sometimes take an act of forgiveness for two individuals to
know that they love each other. In the end of times, people that resisted love, and hanged onto hate will be face to face with the Creator, and when faced with his love directly they will realize this was their life lesson all along. The will of God is for everyone to abandon their shackles that separate them from this love so everyone can be one in God. I believe our choices are our own, but I also believe that God knows every single choice I make in this world, and he is going to use the choices I make to bring me not only closer to the truth, but help me understand the truth. I believe Esau learnt this lesson, maybe the hard way but he learnt it nevertheless.
Even if I only make ghastly, negative hateful choices, God knows exactly what it will take to help me appreciate the worlds life lesson-
the love of God
Quote from: jabcat on January 21, 2013, 05:55:35 AM
:Oops:
Ah, I imagine it'll carry right on along. :)
You mean ... (wait for it) Like it had a will of its own? :pointlaugh:
lovely
The tree I look at is over one hundred years old.
I know that it was Gods will that it be there.
I think scriptures were meant to be read by an individual.
Like the tree that has no will to move unless God moves it with the wind.
Or with my will I cut it down.
In the whole universe I am the only one with free will when relating to GOD.
Yes, perhaps. :HeartThrob:
I think the verse that does away with free will for me is (Phil. 2:13) For IT IS GOD which WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.
If our wills are a product of God working in us and everything we do is because God is working in us to do of his good pleasure, pray tell where does our seperate wills fit in all of this?
It seems that some feel that God won't, or can't operate, or he needs our wills to be active before he makes a decision or acts accordingly...by the way, where did we get our wills?
If God allows us to make our own decisions whether right or wrong, before he steps in wouldn't that allow for mistakes that God would have to correct, or that would cost us dearly? What if that mistake we made cost us our life, who do we blame for it, ourselves, or God for not stepping in? Us humans might do this with our children but I don't see God doing it.
I was thinking about Jesus and what he said, "but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak". Jesus also said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING". Did the Father let Jesus make decisions about certain things? After all he was the only begotten Son of God.
There is a lot to all of this that I think none of us will ever really know, at least in this lifetime.
CHB
I understand all these philosophical arguments(from both sides) and there is really no resolving them. The problem as I see it is that the scriptures present many verses attending the will of man and his accountability for the use of it- as well as many verses attending to the sovereignty of God.
Everyone needs to resolve this paradox in their own heart and mine and in their own way- but the scriptures should be integrated in whatever view we take because they certainly do not oppose themselves.
Sometimes I think we are looking at the same subject from two different levels, or perspectives, one, from time and effect and action and reaction, the "simple wisdom of living" that we are counseled with from the scripture----and the other from the finished work of God in eternity.
I find it difficult to understand how anyone can place those two views in opposition to one another and I think they integrate perfectly at a point where all of us must admit we see through a glass darkly.
The only reason I continue to discuss it is that when we say one view or the other is "completely false" or whatever ..... we are claiming to have(IMO) an understanding that supersedes the scriptures- since the scriptures support elements of both views in measures and degrees.
At this point however, I don't think any fruitful discussion can be had based on "this verse" or "that verse" -the subject is too complex for that and involves soooo many verses of scripture.
Let's all write our books about it, exchange them, and then return to the discussion in a few years :Peace2:
God is to man is as man is to horse. :winkgrin:
A stallion needs us as a mirror to find out what he is born for.
Authentic being with a horse is based on a positive, authentic approach to life.
What is it all about?
A gelding needs most of all love
A mare needs most of all respect.
A stallion needs most of all YOU! on the highest possible level of peace.
Closeness to a horse comes only from closeness to one's inner self.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhNXt_c2nXw
The result?
Confidence, collection, balance, and a high expression of liberty [which comes from the partnership].
A Horse With No Name
http://youtu.be/zSAJ0l4OBHM (http://youtu.be/zSAJ0l4OBHM)
On the first part of the journey,
I was looking at all the life.
There were plants and birds. and rocks and things,
There was sand and hills and rings.
The first thing I met, was a fly with a buzz,
And the sky, with no clouds.
The heat was hot, and the ground was dry,
But the air was full of sound.
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name,
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.
La, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la
La, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la
After two days, in the desert sun,
My skin began to turn red.
After three days, in the desert fun,
I was looking at a river bed.
And the story it told, of a river that flowed,
Made me sad to think it was dead.
You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name,
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.
La la, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la
La la, la, la la la la, la la la, la, la
After nine days, I let the horse run free,
'Cause the desert had turned to sea.
There were plants and birds, and rocks and things,
There was sand and hills and rings.
The ocean is a desert, with its life underground,
And a perfect disguise above.
Under the cities lies, a heart made of ground,
But the humans will give no love.
You see I've been through the desert on a horse with no name,
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name,
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.
When scriptures seemingly butt heads.
Sometimes we need a different way to see the scriptures.
For myself I imagine how the seemingly head butting scriptures,
can be made to mesh together. Or as some call it philosophy.
Adam had free will before the creation of Eve.
So the LORD God formed out of the ground every wild animal and every bird of the sky, and brought each to the man to see what he would call it. And whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.
I don't think when God brought the animals past Adam that Adam judged them
good or evil. He just named them using his free will .
God actually waited for Adam to express his free will.
In my opinion God was pleased with Adam having a free will.
God was so pleased with Adam he made Eve with the same free will.
In My OpinionYou can only have free will if you DO NOT have the knowledge of good and evil.
So, the closer you get to walking in the spirit (the wind blows where it wills)
The freer you get (glorious liberty of the children of God) :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on January 22, 2013, 07:04:09 AM
So, the closer you get to walking in the spirit (the wind blows where it wills)
The freer you get (glorious liberty of the children of God) :o)
Well said Eagle.
We might then say something like, free will is experience you get that allows you to simply walk away from man-made choices.
Yes, and perhaps we could say when our will is in harmony with God's, it is finally free.
Quote from: CHB on January 21, 2013, 08:10:04 PM
I think the verse that does away with free will for me is (Phil. 2:13) For IT IS GOD which WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.
If our wills are a product of God working in us and everything we do is because God is working in us to do of his good pleasure, pray tell where does our seperate wills fit in all of this?
It seems that some feel that God won't, or can't operate, or he needs our wills to be active before he makes a decision or acts accordingly...by the way, where did we get our wills?
If God allows us to make our own decisions whether right or wrong, before he steps in wouldn't that allow for mistakes that God would have to correct, or that would cost us dearly? What if that mistake we made cost us our life, who do we blame for it, ourselves, or God for not stepping in? Us humans might do this with our children but I don't see God doing it.
I was thinking about Jesus and what he said, "but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak". Jesus also said "of mine own self I can do NOTHING". Did the Father let Jesus make decisions about certain things? After all he was the only begotten Son of God.
There is a lot to all of this that I think none of us will ever really know, at least in this lifetime.
CHB
VERY well said. It would seem that man considers his wisdom pretty high when attempting to reason and discern "these philosophical arguments"(where in lies the problem) I believe your report CHB when you state Paul, (Phil. 2:13) For IT IS GOD which WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure.
Should we start at point A..a truth, FOR IT IS GOD WHICH WORKETH in you.... and build on that rather than
... okay lets figure out a way to get God out of certain situations in our walk that just don't seem like God would have a hand in "whatever"it maybe.
I personally have no problem with God being the sole representative who takes full responsibility for whatever occurs with HIS CREATION. He created, made, formed EVERYTHING and I do not believe He has made a mistake since He began. And Paul also wrote Col.1:17 17 and He is before all, and
all has its cohesion in Him.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 22, 2013, 07:56:16 AM
Yes, and perhaps we could say when our will is in harmony with God's, it is finally free.
So then, would you agree it is not so much Free-Will, as Freeded-Will. I suffer under the melancholy which comes from having to make petty decisions about the superficial things this life calls important. What I really wish is to be absorbed by God's will and therefore be totally free to be totally about Him.
I think I'm getting a glimmering of what Christ meant when He said that those freed by Him were free indeed; it's not that we are free to make an endless stream of decisions which ultimately wind up being situational: black shoes or brown, yellow dress or blue, where to go on vacation, which college. It's knowing that the freedom comes from it not being MY decision. Just put your decision in God's hand and choose. You have been freed from the notion of Free-Will.
If this sounds totally stupid and I missed it again, I beg your forgiveness for having wasted the time you took to read this. It just rings so true.
I do not mean this question in a sarcastic way.
I have been reading the first 3 chapters of Genesis.
for quite awhile.
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness. They will rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock, all the earth,[h] and the creatures that crawl on the earth."
No! You will not die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "In fact, God knows that when[a] you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The LORD God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever."
How could God know the difference between good and evil.
He is God
There would be nothing God could do that was evil.
Wow I'm God but I better not do that because it is evil.
Adam and Eve eating from the tree gave God the knowledge of good and evil.
Satan who can not tell the truth who can only lie said this.
In fact, God knows that when[a] you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
I know eventually when I am completely transformed into the image of Jesus
and we are all one in one all in all. There will only be LOVE .
The knowledge of good and evil will be as it was in the beginning
purposely unknown by God as far as the east is from the west.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 22, 2013, 07:29:20 PM
Satan who can not tell the truth who can only lie said this.
Of course Satan can tell the truth. If it suits his purpose to tell the the truth he does, if not he lies. I have seen people say a truth to hide a lie lots of times. In fact, I even made up a word for this action.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 22, 2013, 07:48:50 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 22, 2013, 07:29:20 PM
Satan who can not tell the truth who can only lie said this.
Of course Satan can tell the truth. If it suits his purpose to tell the the truth he does, if not he lies. I have seen people say a truth to hide a lie lots of times. In fact, I even made up a word for this action.
I have not written to you because you don't know the truth, but because you do know it, and because
no lie comes from the truth.
He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
I wonder if one can say a truth but in a way that manipulates another to believing what is not true?
If truth is spoken to intentionally cause harm or upset, is it the same as a lie?
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 08:10:26 PM
I wonder if one can say a truth but in a way that manipulates another to believing what is not true?
If truth is spoken to intentionally cause harm or upset, is it the same as a lie?
That's a little deep for me, can you maybe un-fuddle me? :sigh:
E.G. My wife says, "Do you love me?"
I shrug my shoulders, look away from her and sneeringly say, "Yeah, sure."
I have told the truth and a hidden lie simultaneously.
Not this has ever happened to me personally :Chinscratch: :Peace2:
no lie comes from the truth.
No truth hides a lie
A lie in reality is the expression of no faith and is a sin.
An untruth spoken as knowledge is ignorance and is not as sin.
How will they know unless someone is sent.
Sent to tell them the truth the good news.
Daj said, "no lie comes from the truth. No truth hides a lie"
I guess the example wasn't good enough
"E.G. My wife says, "Do you love me?"
I shrug my shoulders, look away from her and sneeringly say, "Yeah, sure."
I have told the truth and a hidden lie simultaneously.
Just like, "Oh yeah, I agree with you completely" said sarcastically as I roll my eyes upward.
It sure seems to me a lie came from the truth and the truth I spoke hid a lie. :Peace2:
Ded, to use letters that may be frowned upon, but BS contains only the truth, that you do not really love your wife. I have expressed your "truth" to previous wives and I have no wife now. There is no truth in no truth. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 08:10:26 PM
I wonder if one can say a truth but in a way that manipulates another to believing what is not true?
If truth is spoken to intentionally cause harm or upset, is it the same as a lie?
Happens all the time. The letter kills, the spirit gives life.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 23, 2013, 04:24:58 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 22, 2013, 08:12:37 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 08:10:26 PM
I wonder if one can say a truth but in a way that manipulates another to believing what is not true?
If truth is spoken to intentionally cause harm or upset, is it the same as a lie?
Happens all the time. The letter kills, the spirit gives life.
aint no quote from Micah.
woops.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 22, 2013, 08:00:55 PM
He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth,
because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
That doesn't mean he can't say the truth if it suits his purposes.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 22, 2013, 11:13:05 PM
A lie in reality is the expression of no faith and is a sin.
An untruth spoken as knowledge is ignorance and is not as sin.
How will they know unless someone is sent.
Sent to tell them the truth the good news.
A lie, is a lie, is a lie.
Quote from: dajomaco on January 22, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
no lie comes from the truth.
No truth hides a lie
Are you serious? Thousands of lies have come from the truth.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 23, 2013, 08:32:38 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 22, 2013, 11:05:31 PM
no lie comes from the truth.
No truth hides a lie
Are you serious? Thousands of lies have come from the truth.
Hereis scriptural backing for what I've said
I can give you as many scriptures as you like .
Could you give me one that confirms your philosophy
Thousands of lies have come from the truth.I have not written to you because you don't know the truth,
but because you do know it, and
because no lie comes from the truth.
But you coat the truth with lies; you are all worthless doctors.
Faithful love and truth will join together; righteousness and peace will embrace.
instructing his opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance leading them to the knowledge of the truth.
They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.
But if you have bitter envy and selfish ambition in your heart, don't brag and deny the truth.
If we say, "We have fellowship with Him," yet we walk in darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth.
I, don't see a lie coming out of the truth, but there are lies built to deny the truth. The Truth will contain no lies. Now for more scriptures, I wait. Blessings :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
PS. The post is about WILL. We must find out the person in charge of the switch on the tracks. :Peace2:
Quote from: dajomaco on January 23, 2013, 07:06:36 PM
Hereis scriptural backing for what I've said
I can give you as many scriptures as you like .
Could you give me one that confirms your philosophy
Who
changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.Rom 1:25
The truth was the source of the lie.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 24, 2013, 02:19:48 AM
I, don't see a lie coming out of the truth, but there are lies built to deny the truth. The Truth will contain no lies.
But there are lies which contain the truth. You have but to look at the ecclesiastical movement, or the way Christianity is practiced among Hindus.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:27:10 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 23, 2013, 07:06:36 PM
Hereis scriptural backing for what I've said
I can give you as many scriptures as you like .
Could you give me one that confirms your philosophy
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.Rom 1:25
The truth was the source of the lie.
I would have to disagree VB. IMO The truth was not the source of the lie. The lie was planted into the field of the truth, like wheat and tares.
A truth over prioritized becomes a lie. According to Jesus all the prophets and the law "hinged", open and close, on the foundational truth of the two great commandments (You shall love the Lord your God with all you heart and your neighbor as yourself)
The parable of the Samaritan and the man wounded by thieves discerns the foundational truth- that loving your neighbor testifies to love for God and union with Him more than "knowing" the things of God or the "truths" of God like the Pharisee and the Levite possessed.
"I have glorified my word above all my name"
For example, Some folks would disqualify you for a relationship with God because you call Him Jesus rather than Yashua, their spirit of elitism and sectarian legalism infecting the truth of God's love in Christ among all them that know Him for who He is and "live the word" tho perhaps in some measure "ignorant in letters" and systematic theology.
These same kinds of sectarianism are taught daily over issues like baptism, the godhead doctrine, Aminianism and Calvinism, etc., etc. ad infinitum.
Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, who make the "word of God", which is the LOGOS, which is the revelation of the divine nature of Messiah Jesus the image of God- void(not reproducing the divine nature in the hearer) by their traditions, their legalistic sectarian spirit, and their failure to love their neighbor while trumpeting their love for God through their theology, dress, rituals, laws etc.,etc, ad infinitum.
IMO,None of these lies were "sourced" in the truth, but were sowed among the wheat by the adversary in order to produce tares rather than children of the kingdom.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 24, 2013, 06:58:38 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:27:10 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on January 23, 2013, 07:06:36 PM
Hereis scriptural backing for what I've said
I can give you as many scriptures as you like .
Could you give me one that confirms your philosophy
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.Rom 1:25
The truth was the source of the lie.
I would have to disagree VB. IMO The truth was not the source of the lie. The lie was planted into the field of the truth, like wheat and tares.
I would agree with you eagle, but it seems to me you can't alter something (change it) unles it existed in the first place. Otherwise IMO it would have been generated, not altered (or changed). Paul said they changed the truth of God into a lie, it doesn't say they made a lie, or created one.
I may be stupid but it seems to me that VB and EW are just saying the same thing differently. :dontknow:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 24, 2013, 02:18:34 PM
I may be stupid but it seems to me that VB and EW are just saying the same thing differently. :dontknow:
I'm sorry ded ... I must have goofed in my explanation.
What I am saying is that the lie referred to in Romans came about as the result of people having changed the truth that they knew. I don't mean to speak for Eagle, and Eagle if you could confirm or deny this I would appreciate it. What I think Eagle may be saying is that the lie is a totally different thing, which comes from the same general area of thought. I must stress however, that is just my interpretation of Eagle's words, and needs to be confirmed by him. This is just the way I see the difference.
Well I'll chalk it up to my humble spirit that sees no difference :laugh:
this is how they 'changed' it into a lie....they said they loved God but despized man made in the image of God......
the antidote.'Christ'...whatever you have done for one of the least ones of these,ye have done to me....
....the seed of Abraham was to be blessing for all nations...but because of their despizing the nations in their elitism
and lacking 'salt' in themselves...they were only fit to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.. their... lack of faith...
coupled with..the great faith evidenced in the gentiles...showed they were no longer fit for anything but to be thrown out
The ark was in the HOH. It was the at the center of worship. Everytime we see God's glory cloud we see the cherubim carrying it. (it doesnt' show this is Exodus, but the similarities between the Ezekiel vision and the the glory cloud in Exodus are very similar, so I'm inferring)
It was likely what the Israelites saw bringing them up out of egypt, and why they built a golden calf, which is the god(s) that brought them up out of egypt.
So here we have the "choice" between the seen, the cherubim, and the unseen, God. The created and the creator.
They took the truth, that the cherubim go wherever the Spirit takes them(and is associated with God, in intimate union), and traded it for a lie, that the cherubim was their god(s).
acts 7
39"But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt. 40They told Aaron, 'Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who led us out of Egypt—we don't know what has happened to him!'i 41That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and held a celebration in honor of what their hands had made. 42But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets:
"'Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings
forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?
43You have lifted up the shrine of Molech
and the star of your god Rephan,
the idols you made to worship.
Therefore I will send you into exile'j beyond Babylon.
a couple connections:
Moloch is a bull. In Ezekiel the faces of the cherubim are described. In one verse it calls the face of a calf, in another it calls it the face of the cherub.
Cherub=bull/calf
The root KRB in aramaic means to plow. It is unknown in Hebrew.
2 Thess 2;4 he will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called GOD or is worshipped,so that he sets's
himself up in God's temple,proclaiming himself to be God.[Rev 13;1-10] it is not God but a beast with carnal understanding
that rules as God.........now,the serpent was the most subtil beast of the field.. It rules and judges without equity or
righteousness.. It sits in the tokogae judging law...it claims divine appointment to rule over people what is good/evil
it puts to death who it pleases etc[see Daniel Babylon King..given mind of beast and eat grass like the cattle].
the first instance that I detect is when the people approached Samuel demanding a 'king' like the nations around them...
a visible rep of the invisible one.............they have rejected me 'the invisible one'...............
and the 'great grab' for power to rule over the people/world..continues...both secularly/kings and religiously/priests Religions
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 24, 2013, 05:20:11 PM
Well I'll chalk it up to my humble spirit that sees no difference :laugh:
You're probably closer to the truth than I in this one. :icon_jokercolor:
Do you think it is possible, by using our free will,
to purposely not see the difference between good and evil.?
Man starts off not knowing the difference between good and evil.
Man eat from the tree and now sees the difference between good and evil.
Man is reconciled BACK to God.
God has now purposely not remembered to see the difference between good and evil.
Can I enter the Kingdom of God now?
Daj said, "God has now purposely not remembered to see the difference between good and evil."
Wha-a-at???
Explain yourself young man!
IMO, Man knowing good from evil does not reconcile him to God.
God may forgive sins based on his own (Jesus)shed blood but he would have to know the difference
between good and evil to even start to forgive sin.
Our sins aren't just forgiven because God is somekind of kindly old man that is forgetful and kind of winks at sin.
He is a holy righteous God that removes sin on the basis of trust in the shed blood of Jesus Christ which most will never know in this lifetime. :2c:
DEd Said IMO, Man knowing good from evil does not reconcile him to God.
Daj said ---Ded that is right-on man.
No longer will one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they will all know Me, from the least to the greatest of them"—this is the Lord's declaration. "For I will forgive their wrongdoing and never again remember their sin."
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says:
16 This is the covenant I will make with them
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws on their hearts
and write them on their minds,
17 He adds:
I will never again remember
their sins and their lawless acts.[c]
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
For I will be merciful to their wrongdoing,
and I will never again remember their sins.[f][g]
13 By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear.
man knowing good from evil has no effect upon is capacity to restrain himself from DOING evil.
I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
(Rom 7:21-25)
Only the cross of Christ destroys the flesh, where evil fourishes, and unleashes the Spirit so that "the one who by the Spirit puts to death the deeds of the flesh shall live", so that
"Walk in the Spirit ad you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"
How do I, by the Spirit, put to death the deeds of the flesh?
By reckoning the flesh dead- in my flesh dwells no good thing- only the Spirit gives life, the open door of grace, the key of the renewed mind, laboring diligently to enter the Sabbath rest of the believer.
I, can of my own self do nothing.
I am dead, but Christ lives in me, and the life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God who died and gave Himself for me.
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
(Rom 8:1-2)
By reckoning the flesh dead- in my flesh dwells no good thing- only the Spirit gives life, the open door of grace, the key of the renewed mind, laboring diligently to enter the Sabbath rest of the believer.
The phrase: by reckoning
Could this mean: (by a decision of my free will) decide the flesh is dead to me?
man knowing good from evil has no effect upon is capacity to restrain himself from DOING evil.
If man did not know good from evil the word restrain has no meaning .
Quote from: dajomaco on January 28, 2013, 07:47:11 PM
Do you think it is possible, by using our free will,
to purposely not see the difference between good and evil.?
I don't think so, the fact that you 'purposely' don't see it means you do.
I've come to see this more and more as an ongoing thing. As much as I have tried throughout my life to put to death the flesh, it simply don't work that way. Ghandi tried and failed as well. What I have come to see is that it is a lot like being an alcoholic. You are never free from the flesh, you try on a daily basis to walk in the way of the Lord, with the Lord's help. I am no more capable of conquering the flesh then I am capable of teaching myself to live in an anarobic world. As long I live in the flesh, the flesh will be there.
This is where I have to go to God and say one day at a time in the flesh with the Lord, and my God help me.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 29, 2013, 04:17:15 AM
I've come to see this more and more as an ongoing thing. As much as I have tried throughout my life to put to death the flesh, it simply don't work that way. Ghandi tried and failed as well. What I have come to see is that it is a lot like being an alcoholic. You are never free from the flesh, you try on a daily basis to walk in the way of the Lord, with the Lord's help. I am no more capable of conquering the flesh then I am capable of teaching myself to live in an anarobic world. As long I live in the flesh, the flesh will be there.
This is where I have to go to God and say one day at a time in the flesh with the Lord, and my God help me.
:thumbsup:
I don't believe man can, by will, conquer evil within himself. That is the point of Romans 7. The spirit can give man victory over evil. That is the point of Romans 8. As long as we live in the body, we have the potential for evil.
"Watch ye therefore and pray that you enter not into temptation, for the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."
"Walk, in the spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"
"Everyman sins when he is drawn away of his own lust and enticed".
Drawn away? From what?
"Fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith"
As the hymn teaches, "Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace"
"Set your affections on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God."
Watchman Nee wrote a book on the letter of Paul to the Ephesians called, "Sit(in heavenly realms in Christ) Walk(in the Spirit), Stand(in the evil day)
I'm still back around page 10 and 11 trying to catch up on my reading here. I have something I've put off posting on this topic. Reminds me of a phrase from a song, "Soon, and very soon, we shall see the king..."
VB said - "I don't think so, the fact that you 'purposely' don't see it means you do." absolutely right.
I took a class in hypnosis taught by a trained hypnotist.
Under hypnosis, another student was told that they would not see a certain person in sitting in a chair.
The hypnotized person was then asked to call out the names of the people sitting in different chairs the hypnotist pointed to.
When he got to the "invisible person" he said it was just an empty chair. The "invisible person held up and waved a pice of paper around and the hypnotized person asked the hypnotist how he was able to make the paper float through the air.
The hypnotist later told us that the hypnotized person had to "see" the person they were "NOT to see" in order for that particular individual and no one else to "be invisible".
BTW the hypnotist did a demonstration with me where I couldn't remember my own name - of course I had to know what name to forget before I could "forget" it. Confusing? 35 years later, I don't need hypnosis for that little trick :laugh:
He also said " a wicked and perverse generation seeks for a sign".
Paul also said there are many gifts but one body. Not all have the gift of healing or miracles.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 08:13:10 PM
He also said " a wicked and perverse generation seeks for a sign".
Yes. Where Jesus said it was. Within.
It is there. Trust me. I found and so can you.
The light is seen with the third eye just as Jesus says but if you do not believe him over you tradition and dogma, I understand.
You have accepted the traditions of men. Jesus has a few words on that as well.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 08:16:37 PM
Paul also said there are many gifts but one body. Not all have the gift of healing or miracles.
So Paul's words have more power for you than Jesus'.
Ok.
Regards
DL
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 08:19:46 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 08:13:10 PM
He also said " a wicked and perverse generation seeks for a sign".
Yes. Where Jesus said it was. Within.
It is there. Trust me. I found and so can you.
The light is seen with the third eye just as Jesus says but if you do not believe him over you tradition and dogma, I understand.
You have accepted the traditions of men. Jesus has a few words on that as well.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL
Which traditions of men have I accepted? You are making a lot of broad statements with little substance. Frankly I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Jesus talked about the third eye?? What verse of scripture?
The 'third eye"
"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,
but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
Mat 6:22,23
He's not talking about blind people with bad eyes.
it is the mark in the forehead of the sons of God. It is how the Holy spirit speaks to us. Projects visions etc.
I saw it more as a projection[unicorn] horn of POWER /Horn of beauty.. as in Ezekiel 9 the man with
the inkhorn..to put a mark on the foreheads of those who greive and lament over all the detestable things
that are done in it.. One of Jobs daughters was named after it[horn of beauty] Now Jezebel has her
counterfeit evil contrast to God's..where eyes are enlarged Jeremiah 4;30 also speaks of it.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 08:22:59 PM
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 08:19:46 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 08:13:10 PM
He also said " a wicked and perverse generation seeks for a sign".
Yes. Where Jesus said it was. Within.
It is there. Trust me. I found and so can you.
The light is seen with the third eye just as Jesus says but if you do not believe him over you tradition and dogma, I understand.
You have accepted the traditions of men. Jesus has a few words on that as well.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL
Which traditions of men have I accepted? You are making a lot of broad statements with little substance. Frankly I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
The tradition of looking to and following your man given dogma and way of thinking instead of listening to what both Jesus and Martin Luther said.
Try those links again.
If you are a protestant then M L's quote is for you.
If you are Catholic then the Jesus quotes are and you might wonder why the largest sculpture at the Vatican is the symbol of the pineal gland that most mystics point to as how to go into the spirit.
God is not in a book my friend. He is within you.
I know that you are used to being part of your religious crowd.
Remember that Jesus went against the status quo and tells us to also pick up our cross and follow him.
If it was easy, and you will likely take that easy way, then like your friends, do not expect to find the God you seek.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mJdxqeKobw
Regards
DL
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 08:22:09 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 08:16:37 PM
Paul also said there are many gifts but one body. Not all have the gift of healing or miracles.
So Paul's words have more power for you than Jesus'.
Ok.
Regards
DL
Admin Note - One Male, you seem to have come on quite abrasive right off the bat. This is a discussion forum, not a debate, arguing, or attempting to domineer forum. Also, we post here "as I understand", "I believe", "in my opinion", etc. Especially, we don't allow personal insulting, mocking, flaming, etc. It's a tightly moderated forum, for the discussion of UR. The forum guidelines/expectations clearly state these things, including that your first post expresses agreement with those guidelines. If you can reign it in and post in a conversational tone, great. If not, there are probably forums more conducive to the type of posting you may prefer. Thanks.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 08:31:49 PM
The 'third eye"
"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,
but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
Mat 6:22,23
He's not talking about blind people with bad eyes.
Many verces actually speak of it although your church will not usually speak of it.
This speaker has quite a bit on it I will give the one link but he has others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Regards
DL
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 08:31:49 PM
The 'third eye"
"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,
but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
Mat 6:22,23
He's not talking about blind people with bad eyes.
You are thinking with your carnal mind.
Even then you sound foolish as we have 2 eyes not one eye.
Now try that link just above and see what those who thing spiritually know of Jesus and his third eye and what he says of it.
Remember as well that Jesus always talked in parables and eyes are not eye.
Regards
DL
I should follow Jesus and Martin Luther? LOL talk about the traditions of men.
Quote from: sheila on January 31, 2013, 08:48:06 PM
it is the mark in the forehead of the sons of God. It is how the Holy spirit speaks to us. Projects visions etc.
I saw it more as a projection[unicorn] horn of POWER /Horn of beauty.. as in Ezekiel 9 the man with
the inkhorn..to put a mark on the foreheads of those who greive and lament over all the detestable things
that are done in it.. One of Jobs daughters was named after it[horn of beauty] Now Jezebel has her
counterfeit evil contrast to God's..where eyes are enlarged Jeremiah 4;30 also speaks of it.
Google pineal gland and start to learn what Jesus was talking about.
If you are to climb Jacobs ladder you have to start somewhere.
Regards
DL
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 09:14:01 PM
I should follow Jesus and Martin Luther? LOL talk about the traditions of men.
In this case both are telling you to think but I see that you may not be up to it.
Darn I hate to see potentially good minds wasted.
Why are you even here?
Regards
DL
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2013, 09:00:23 PM
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 08:22:09 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 08:16:37 PM
Paul also said there are many gifts but one body. Not all have the gift of healing or miracles.
So Paul's words have more power for you than Jesus'.
Ok.
Regards
DL
Admin Note - One Male, you seem to have come on quite abrasive right off the bat. This is a discussion forum, not a debate, arguing, or attempting to domineer forum. Also, we post here "as I understand", "I believe", "in my opinion", etc. Especially, we don't allow personal insulting, mocking, flaming, etc. It's a tightly moderated forum, for the discussion of UR. The forum guidelines/expectations clearly state these things, including that your first post expresses agreement with those guidelines. If you can reign it in and post in a conversational tone, great. If not, there are probably forums more conducive to the type of posting you may prefer. Thanks.
I am rather feisty but I will do my best.
If there is not leeway or tolerance here then.
Regards
DL
:laughing7:
Giving you an opportunity brother. It's fair warning, and it's something we ALL need to remember. Thanks for giving it a shot. Just try to remember we're all growing and learning, God is still shaping us, none of us have arrived at all complete understanding or knowledge - and that those things can be discussed and we can benefit from each other, if we don't alienate each other with our attitudes and behavior first. "Let not your good be evil spoken of". My tongue can ruin what otherwise God might have me share. And above all, "in love, preferring one another".
Thanks.
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 09:09:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 08:31:49 PM
The 'third eye"
"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,
but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
Mat 6:22,23
He's not talking about blind people with bad eyes.
You are thinking with your carnal mind.
Even then you sound foolish as we have 2 eyes not one eye.
Now try that link just above and see what those who thing spiritually know of Jesus and his third eye and what he says of it.
Remember as well that Jesus always talked in parables and eyes are not eye.
Regards
DL
Whoops. You answered me twice. This time you seem to have misread what I said.
I was agreeing with you that there is a 'third eye' talked about in scripture, although I wouldn't call it that, myself.
PS I liked what Sheila said.
Why don't you just come out and say what you're trying to say. No offense, but I don't have time to read everything someone puts in front of me. And for your cause you might try another tact other than, coming in accusing people of things without any sort of evidence.
For instance your assertion I don't understand the kingdom of heaven is inside is actually hilarious. And perfect to show how ignorant you are of the beliefs of those of us here.
actually I was taken up and shown this. it is a Glory of the sons of God..... they use this power to change
from one form to another..to speak telepathically. The Holy spirit teaches me. I did watch a video.u posted..
but like everything else..it get's corrupted when carnal minds try to teach other carnal minds about it.
Holy spirit is capable of teaching in the spirit without watching those videosand irregardless is someone
has 'calcifications" in their pineal gland if they can do 'nothing' of themselves then de-calcifying their
pineal glands will not help..
you are not to merchandise truth. yes, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed...
what is born of flesh is flesh..what is born of spirit is spirit.........carnal fleshly interpretation of spiritual/celestial
things...corrupt it.
I don't use the term third eye either. It's what new agers, hindu's , buddhists use.
I have never before have someone say Jesus talked about the "third eye." :2c:
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2013, 09:23:57 PM
:laughing7:
Giving you an opportunity brother. It's fair warning, and it's something we ALL need to remember. Thanks for giving it a shot. Just try to remember we're all growing and learning, God is still shaping us, none of us have arrived at all complete understanding or knowledge - and that those things can be discussed and we can benefit from each other, if we don't alienate each other with our attitudes and behavior first. "Let not your good be evil spoken of". My tongue can ruin what otherwise God might have me share. And above all, "in love, preferring one another".
Thanks.
Thanks.
I am a reactive person and usually give back what I get.
I noticed that you deleted my snide remark to another in responce to his snide remark. His is still up.
Reciprocity is fair play so please use the same yardstick for me as you did not use for him is all I ask.
Also, I am French and if you know anything about how we use the English language you will know that to the English, we French also sound more ---- in your face ----- than what we intend.
I am not as bad as some at that but it is something I cannot help because it is cultural.
Regards
DL
"I cannot help because its cultural"
so you do believe in the sins of the father :LH:
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 09:25:36 PM
[
Whoops. You answered me twice. This time you seem to have misread what I said.
I was agreeing with you that there is a 'third eye' talked about in scripture, although I wouldn't call it that, myself.
PS I liked what Sheila said.
My bad. I have been running instead of walking and suffer from third man in syndrome and tend to screw up when first entering a new site. It is my competitive nature. Not to mention opinionated.
I hope Jabcat notices and is a patient fellow.
Regards
DL
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 31, 2013, 09:35:38 PM
I don't use the term third eye either. It's what new agers, hindu's , buddhists use.
I have never before have someone say Jesus talked about the "third eye." :2c:
I wouldn't call it that, either, but I knew what he was talking about. Also, what Sheila is talking about. We don't really have a name for it. Maybe we should agree on a name, like the mark of God in their foreheads.
It's clear to me that it is God [the Holy Spirit] which turns it on. We really cannot do anything to facilitate this except pay attention and use it for the glory of God.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
[John 15:16]
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.[Mat 13:11]
"mysteries"G3466
μυστήριον
mustērionmoos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō
(to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery"
(through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
"occult"Of, involving, or relating to supernatural, mystical, or magical powers or phenomena.
Cut off from view, Secret, Hidden
Jesus showed that everyone received at least one talent of truth...these talents are sown in various
religions. some 'bury it' in the earth....these somewhat 'obscure] talents of truth shall be given to the one that
has...and the one that does not have..even what he thinks he has..will be taken away and given to the one that has.
now any talent God may give..is to be used to increase the Lord's interests......and shared so that all may
increase in light...not to LORD IT over others and despize them.
Now you come here with this 'majic' wand teaching to beat on the head other's here? and you think more highly
of yourself than you ought to. It is the same principle of the sorcerer that wanted to buy the power to lay hands
on the people to impart Holy spirit. Acts 13;8
it never fails to amaze me..how every perfect and good gift given from above that God gives
..that the Kingdom of darkness wants to pervert and corrupt man's understanding of it.
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 09:43:31 PM
"I cannot help because its cultural"
so you do believe in the sins of the father :LH:
No. My father is not like me at all and I am as I am thanks to the environment I grew up in.
Child rearing at home is good for about the first 4 years but then society takes over and Ii was raised in tough neighborhoods and moved a lot hence the third man in syndrome.
I also hate talking about me or others and you will note that unless under personal attack I try to always speak to the issue at hand.
Regards
DL
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 09:47:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 09:25:36 PM
[
Whoops. You answered me twice. This time you seem to have misread what I said.
I was agreeing with you that there is a 'third eye' talked about in scripture, although I wouldn't call it that, myself.
PS I liked what Sheila said.
My bad. I have been running instead of walking and suffer from third man in syndrome and tend to screw up when first entering a new site. It is my competitive nature. Not to mention opinionated.
I hope Jabcat notices and is a patient fellow.
Regards
DL
No problem. Welcome! :mfriends:
We might not all agree, but we all enjoy thinking on these things here.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 31, 2013, 09:35:38 PM
I don't use the term third eye either. It's what new agers, hindu's , buddhists use.
I have never before have someone say Jesus talked about the "third eye." :2c:
I wouldn't call it that, either, but I knew what he was talking about. Also, what Sheila is talking about. We don't really have a name for it. Maybe we should agree on a name, like the mark of God in their foreheads.
It's clear to me that it is God [the Holy Spirit] which turns it on. We really cannot do anything to facilitate this except pay attention and use it for the glory of God.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
[John 15:16]
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
[Mat 13:11]
"mysteries"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
"occult"
Of, involving, or relating to supernatural, mystical, or magical powers or phenomena.
Cut off from view, Secret, Hidden
Oh my.
Jesus said seek and ye shall find and knock and the door shall be opened unto you and you somehow think that sitting back and waiting for Jesus to knock is the way to go.
The servant makes efforts to impress the master my dear. The master does not need you. You need him.
Do you see teachers going about door to door or do you see the children going to the teacher?
Regards
DL
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 09:57:53 PM
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 09:47:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 09:25:36 PM
[
Whoops. You answered me twice. This time you seem to have misread what I said.
I was agreeing with you that there is a 'third eye' talked about in scripture, although I wouldn't call it that, myself.
PS I liked what Sheila said.
My bad. I have been running instead of walking and suffer from third man in syndrome and tend to screw up when first entering a new site. It is my competitive nature. Not to mention opinionated.
I hope Jabcat notices and is a patient fellow.
Regards
DL
No problem. Welcome! :mfriends:
We might not all agree, but we all enjoy thinking on these things here.
Thanks.
Regards
DL
Quote from: sheila on January 31, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
Jesus showed that everyone received at least one talent of truth...these talents are sown in various
religions. some 'bury it' in the earth....these somewhat 'obscure] talents of truth shall be given to the one that
has...and the one that does not have..even what he thinks he has..will be taken away and given to the one that has.
now any talent God may give..is to be used to increase the Lord's interests......and shared so that all may
increase in light...not to LORD IT over others and despize them.
Now you come here with this 'majic' wand teaching to beat on the head other's here? and you think more highly
of yourself than you ought to. It is the same principle of the sorcerer that wanted to buy the power to lay hands
on the people to impart Holy spirit. Acts 13;8
it never fails to amaze me..how every perfect and good gift given from above that God gives
..that the Kingdom of darkness wants to pervert and corrupt man's understanding of it.
Correction is good though.
You said from above when Jesus distinctly said that heaven is not above.
But do not think of that. Stick to your indoctrinated dogma and tradition and ignore Jesus once more.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 10:00:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 31, 2013, 09:35:38 PM
I don't use the term third eye either. It's what new agers, hindu's , buddhists use.
I have never before have someone say Jesus talked about the "third eye." :2c:
I wouldn't call it that, either, but I knew what he was talking about. Also, what Sheila is talking about. We don't really have a name for it. Maybe we should agree on a name, like the mark of God in their foreheads.
It's clear to me that it is God [the Holy Spirit] which turns it on. We really cannot do anything to facilitate this except pay attention and use it for the glory of God.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
[John 15:16]
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
[Mat 13:11]
"mysteries"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
"occult"
Of, involving, or relating to supernatural, mystical, or magical powers or phenomena.
Cut off from view, Secret, Hidden
Oh my.
Jesus said seek and ye shall find and knock and the door shall be opened unto you and you somehow think that sitting back and waiting for Jesus to knock is the way to go.
The servant makes efforts to impress the master my dear. The master does not need you. You need him.
Do you see teachers going about door to door or do you see the children going to the teacher?
Regards
DL
Yes, you are right. Seek and you will find. That is certainly true.
I only said it that way for the benefit those of us who seek, knock, and ask for years before it is given. Because it really is up to God, and in his timing. Sons are appointed. And the timing is His.
For which cause we endure patiently and wait on the LORD.
And, also, for the benefit of those who will not find in this Age.
Psalm 27:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the Lord."wait"H6960
קוה
qâvâh
kaw-vaw'
A primitive root;
to bind together (perhaps by twisting), that is, collect; (figuratively)
to expect: - gather (together),
look, patiently, tarry,
wait (for, on, upon).
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 09:54:39 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 09:43:31 PM
"I cannot help because its cultural"
so you do believe in the sins of the father :LH:
No. My father is not like me at all and I am as I am thanks to the environment I grew up in.
Child rearing at home is good for about the first 4 years but then society takes over and Ii was raised in tough neighborhoods and moved a lot hence the third man in syndrome.
I also hate talking about me or others and you will note that unless under personal attack I try to always speak to the issue at hand.
Regards
DL
It was a joke, in one post you mentioned the passage from EZE about the sins of the father. You then blamed your abruptness on being french aka your fathers.
Jesus also said' I place before you an open door...to the church of brotherly LOVE/Philadelphia" and they shall
enter.
as you can tell,I didn't care for your initial attitude....but am willing to discuss this. I have also addressed my
concerns regarding the 'material' based teachings in reference to pineal gland and de-calsification etc..
As far as I can tell....the celestial beings/heavenly hosts are further trained in heaven of Father as how to
use and control these glories. By merely taking thought they can be transported to another place/realm/
they can communicate with us and each other telepathically.
I do know a certain amout of practice is required to be graceful up there, for I wasn't that graceful when
I was up there..I kind of moved about a little 'choppy' like..instead of a graceful demeanor..not unlike
a human child learning to walk down here is often less than graceful..
any manifestation here is of a 'token' of the fullness when we are 'changed'
...and yes...this wisdom is from ABOVE...........if ye not understand earthly things..then how shall ye understand heavenly
things...being born from above,of the will of God and not man..is being born of the spirit.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 10:15:49 PM
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 10:00:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 31, 2013, 09:35:38 PM
I don't use the term third eye either. It's what new agers, hindu's , buddhists use.
I have never before have someone say Jesus talked about the "third eye." :2c:
I wouldn't call it that, either, but I knew what he was talking about. Also, what Sheila is talking about. We don't really have a name for it. Maybe we should agree on a name, like the mark of God in their foreheads.
It's clear to me that it is God [the Holy Spirit] which turns it on. We really cannot do anything to facilitate this except pay attention and use it for the glory of God.
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
[John 15:16]
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
[Mat 13:11]
"mysteries"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
"occult"
Of, involving, or relating to supernatural, mystical, or magical powers or phenomena.
Cut off from view, Secret, Hidden
Oh my.
Jesus said seek and ye shall find and knock and the door shall be opened unto you and you somehow think that sitting back and waiting for Jesus to knock is the way to go.
The servant makes efforts to impress the master my dear. The master does not need you. You need him.
Do you see teachers going about door to door or do you see the children going to the teacher?
Regards
DL
Yes, you are right. Seek and you will find. That is certainly true.
I only said it that way for the benefit those of us who seek, knock, and ask for years before it is given. Because it really is up to God, and in his timing. Sons are appointed. And the timing is His.
For which cause we endure patiently and wait on the LORD.
And, also, for the benefit of those who will not find in this Age.
Psalm 27:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Wait on the Lord: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the Lord.
"wait"
H6960
קוה
qâvâh
kaw-vaw'
A primitive root; to bind together (perhaps by twisting), that is, collect; (figuratively) to expect: - gather (together), look, patiently, tarry, wait (for, on, upon).
Good grief.
As above so below.
Do you ignore people who come knocking at your door?
What makes you think God does?
Perhaps if you knock the way Jesus urges you to, at the right door, then you might have better luck but be ready for the pain involved in seeing her face.
In your case, -----
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gni33QiG0I
Unless you foolishly believe that you came from a man's rib instead of of Adam coming from Eve.
Now learn where to knock.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
Regards
DL
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 10:18:29 PM
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 09:54:39 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 09:43:31 PM
"I cannot help because its cultural"
so you do believe in the sins of the father :LH:
No. My father is not like me at all and I am as I am thanks to the environment I grew up in.
Child rearing at home is good for about the first 4 years but then society takes over and Ii was raised in tough neighborhoods and moved a lot hence the third man in syndrome.
I also hate talking about me or others and you will note that unless under personal attack I try to always speak to the issue at hand.
Regards
DL
It was a joke, in one post you mentioned the passage from EZE about the sins of the father. You then blamed your abruptness on being french aka your fathers.
I did indeed and you will note that the sins of the father are not passed down in that quote. As it should be and that is why Jesus would not do an immoral substitutionary atonement nor would God demand it.
Original sin is a Christian invention. The Jews saw Eden as man's elevation and not his fall.
Christianity did that for the $$$$$.
http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php
"Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue [see * below], the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants."
No noble and gracious God would demand the sacrifice of a so called son just to prove it's benevolence.
Regards
DL
Why is there such a foul air in this thread? :bumbrage: :JCThink:
Please, can we discuss things with a little more grace? :friendstu:
well, I don't believe that God is just sitting inside all of us waiting to be found.
I believe there is only one way to God the Father, and that is through Jesus.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[Jn 14:6]
But, personally, I was knocking on the wrong door [a Budhist door] when Jesus answered.
And, he was very clear about who he was.
Quote from: sheila on January 31, 2013, 10:20:11 PM
Jesus also said' I place before you an open door...to the church of brotherly LOVE/Philadelphia" and they shall
enter.
as you can tell,I didn't care for your initial attitude....but am willing to discuss this. I have also addressed my
concerns regarding the 'material' based teachings in reference to pineal gland and de-calsification etc..
As far as I can tell....the celestial beings/heavenly hosts are further trained in heaven of Father as how to
use and control these glories. By merely taking thought they can be transported to another place/realm/
they can communicate with us and each other telepathically.
I do know a certain amout of practice is required to be graceful up there, for I wasn't that graceful when
I was up there..I kind of moved about a little 'choppy' like..instead of a graceful demeanor..not unlike
a human child learning to walk down here is often less than graceful..
any manifestation here is of a 'token' of the fullness when we are 'changed'
Jesus also said that the kingdom of God is within you but you prefer to ignore where he actually tells you to look. Within. That is where the laws and information from God are written On your heart.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN_uLYJBi4c&feature=related
Check this at about the 2 min. mark.
Your own Bible is also full of references to your third eye.
You are correct that it is all telepathic and your receiver is in your head and that is where heaven and hell are.
Have you heard the tern Omni-present?
If so, why look up or down as Jesus said when all you have to do is close your eyes and open the third.
Regards
DL
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 10:58:40 PM
well, I don't believe that God is just sitting inside all of us waiting to be found.
I believe there is only one way to God the Father, and that is through Jesus.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[Jn 14:6]
But, personally, I was knocking on the wrong door [a Budhist door] when Jesus answered.
And, he was very clear about who he was.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
To believe that Jesus is God or even his son in the direct way you see him, you would have to believe that God coveted another man's wife for reproductive purposes and that is an inappropriate reproductive methods and God breaking his own commandment.
You end up having to believe in a half breed chimera God instead of a full blooded one, so to speak, and must view God as a deadbeat dad who cockolded Joseph.
Enjoy the God others have created in your mind.
Keep looking in your bible for God all you like and ignore looking where Jesus tells you to look. Your choice.
You might also remember that Jesus was about the 6th ancient God born of a virgin. It was the trend back then to have most of the man made Gods born that way. Either God was busy or you are believing lies.
Regards
DL
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 10:08:59 PM
Quote from: sheila on January 31, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
Jesus showed that everyone received at least one talent of truth...these talents are sown in various
religions. some 'bury it' in the earth....these somewhat 'obscure] talents of truth shall be given to the one that
has...and the one that does not have..even what he thinks he has..will be taken away and given to the one that has.
now any talent God may give..is to be used to increase the Lord's interests......and shared so that all may
increase in light...not to LORD IT over others and despize them.
Now you come here with this 'majic' wand teaching to beat on the head other's here? and you think more highly
of yourself than you ought to. It is the same principle of the sorcerer that wanted to buy the power to lay hands
on the people to impart Holy spirit. Acts 13;8
it never fails to amaze me..how every perfect and good gift given from above that God gives
..that the Kingdom of darkness wants to pervert and corrupt man's understanding of it.
In your case I have no need to corrupt your thinking.
Correction is good though.
You said from above when Jesus distinctly said that heaven is not above.
But do not think of that. Stick to your indoctrinated dogma and tradition and ignore Jesus once more.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL
Remove this please. It's a personal insult. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2013, 11:30:19 PM
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 10:08:59 PM
Quote from: sheila on January 31, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
Jesus showed that everyone received at least one talent of truth...these talents are sown in various
religions. some 'bury it' in the earth....these somewhat 'obscure] talents of truth shall be given to the one that
has...and the one that does not have..even what he thinks he has..will be taken away and given to the one that has.
now any talent God may give..is to be used to increase the Lord's interests......and shared so that all may
increase in light...not to LORD IT over others and despize them.
Now you come here with this 'majic' wand teaching to beat on the head other's here? and you think more highly
of yourself than you ought to. It is the same principle of the sorcerer that wanted to buy the power to lay hands
on the people to impart Holy spirit. Acts 13;8
it never fails to amaze me..how every perfect and good gift given from above that God gives
..that the Kingdom of darkness wants to pervert and corrupt man's understanding of it.
In your case I have no need to corrupt your thinking.
Correction is good though.
You said from above when Jesus distinctly said that heaven is not above.
But do not think of that. Stick to your indoctrinated dogma and tradition and ignore Jesus once more.
Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Regards
DL
Remove this please. It's a personal insult. Thanks.
Done.
Apologies to the poster.
I saw it as a doctor pointing out a condition and did not mean to insult.
Regards
DL
Thank you.
Sorry, I have to believe my Bible. It's in my contract.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
[1 Jn 2:22]
Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Also, we're not looking for doctors. The Great Physician is present. :) We require members, who are willing to discuss, not lecture. You're trying, but keep pulling it in. It's OK if you disagree, see some things differently. But we have to keep it within forum guidelines, or it just invites chaos.
Also, be sure you've read this please; thanks.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/
well, I also apologize for any comment or hashness I have spoken.. Now, I know of the tetrahedron..and in
the year 2001 was given a vision/dream[shortly before 911] in which locusts were crawling but not stinging
me..and I looked up[yes up] and saw the tetrahedrons flying in formation in the heavens.What can you tell me
is your understanding on this?
ps they were going about in formation in a circular vault above me[heavens]
I realized I had been sealed and the fifth seal opened unto me at that time.
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 08:57:22 PM
If it was easy, and you will likely take that easy way, then like your friends, do not expect to find the God you seek.
I can't find God, He has to find me. Without Him I can't even know He exists. Are you thinking of spirit quests?
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 31, 2013, 09:35:38 PM
I don't use the term third eye either. It's what new agers, hindu's , buddhists use.
I have never before have someone say Jesus talked about the "third eye." :2c:
I think I have a second nose, my ear smells funny.
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 11:38:03 PM
I saw it as a doctor pointing out a condition and did not mean to insult.
I don't buy it. You told her to "Stick to your indoctrinated dogma and tradition and ignore Jesus once more." IMO C'est vraiment une insulte dans toutes les langues.
One Male is restricted to read only status at the present time
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 11:22:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 10:58:40 PM
well, I don't believe that God is just sitting inside all of us waiting to be found.
I believe there is only one way to God the Father, and that is through Jesus.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
[Jn 14:6]
But, personally, I was knocking on the wrong door [a Budhist door] when Jesus answered.
And, he was very clear about who he was.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
To believe that Jesus is God or even his son in the direct way you see him, you would have to believe that God coveted another man's wife for reproductive purposes and that is an inappropriate reproductive methods and God breaking his own commandment.
You end up having to believe in a half breed chimera God instead of a full blooded one, so to speak, and must view God as a deadbeat dad who cockolded Joseph.
Enjoy the God others have created in your mind.
Keep looking in your bible for God all you like and ignore looking where Jesus tells you to look. Your choice.
You might also remember that Jesus was about the 6th ancient God born of a virgin. It was the trend back then to have most of the man made Gods born that way. Either God was busy or you are believing lies.
Regards
DL
The following evaluation by credentialed authorities in the original Greek language is based on intensive examination of possibilities inherent in the linguistic evidence:
Jesus Christ as God
==================
Certainly
John 1:1
John 20:28
Very probably
Romans 9:5
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:8 (Psalm 45:7-8)
2 Peter 1:1
Probably
John 1:18
Possibly
Acts 20:28
Hebrews 1:9
1 John 5:20
other texts
Matthew 1:23
John 17:3
Galatians 2:20
Ephesians 5:5
Colossians 2:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
1 Timothy 3:16
______________________
In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. (John 1
1, CLT)
And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20
28, CLT)
______________________
John 14...
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Isaiah (12:2) says Yahweh is become my Jesus (Yeshuah). That the power of the Highest overshadowed Mary to cause her pregnancy makes El-Elyon the Father of Jesus. Jesus is Yahweh.
John 17...
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one...
Not only is Jesus the Father in human expression (Jn 14:9,) the Spirit Who is God answers to the name Jesus (Jn 14:16-18.) What's more, the name of God is on us (Rev 3:12.) Think about that please. That we are the flesh of God in the earth (Eph 5:30), "bone of His bone," is why the exact words calling God "trinity, triune, or three-in-one" are missing from the Holy Scriptures. It isn't because of less than three, but more than three as God.
John 10...
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (theos)?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods(Elohim) ; and all of you are children of the most High (El-Elyon).
1Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Not to pursue it exhaustively, but to go one step beyond...
Not just as a destiny, "that God may be all in all;" (1 Cor 15:28) but, as a present reality, "The All, and in all is Christ." (Col 3:11) We are members of "The All." We sit as Him (being His body parts) on the Great White Throne.
What part of "one" don't you understand?
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2013, 11:39:23 PM
Sorry, I have to believe my Bible. It's in my contract.
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.
[1 Jn 2:22]
Matthew 24:5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.
Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
We are predestined dear to be as Jesus and God.
Ps 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Hosea 1:10
Ye are the sons of the living God.
Regards
DL
Quote from: onemaleWe are predestined dear to be as Jesus and God.
I don't disagree with this.
Just that I believe this will and does happen through Christ only.
In other words, it is not something that I can achieve on my own.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 01, 2013, 04:19:20 AM
Quote from: One Male on January 31, 2013, 08:57:22 PM
If it was easy, and you will likely take that easy way, then like your friends, do not expect to find the God you seek.
I can't find God, He has to find me. Without Him I can't even know He exists. Are you thinking of spirit quests?
Jesus said the spirit is within you.
It is so there is no need to seek it.
I was speaking of finding God.
Do scriptures not say, seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened to you?
Yes they do.
God is the great teacher.
Do you see teachers looking for students in the street or do you see them in class waiting for those who want to learn?
As above so below.
Regards
DL
Quote from: One Male on February 06, 2013, 04:19:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2013, 04:12:04 PM
Quote from: onemaleWe are predestined dear to be as Jesus and God.
I don't disagree with this.
Just that this will and does happen through Christ.
You make a slave out of your master.
It is to you to do the work. Not to him.
You are to grab a hold of his coat tails and push him forward.
Do not make him drag you.
Has he not given enough already?
Regards
DL
well I think you are making some assumptions about me that are unwarranted.
I might be making some about you that are unwarranted, too.
maybe we could just try to communicate more clearly.
If by what you said above, you mean I should try meditation or something, just say that, instead of accusing me of something that doesn't even make sense to me.
Quote from: VineBranch on February 01, 2013, 04:24:39 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 31, 2013, 09:35:38 PM
I don't use the term third eye either. It's what new agers, hindu's , buddhists use.
I have never before have someone say Jesus talked about the "third eye." :2c:
I think I have a second nose, my ear smells funny.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Regards
DL
Quote from: redhotmagma on January 31, 2013, 09:43:31 PM
"I cannot help because its cultural"
so you do believe in the sins of the father :LH:
Careful before you answer this.
I have a caveat waiting to give you.
If a father was talking to Satan and said, --- you tempted me and moved me against my son, and I hurt him without cause, ----- would you think that that man was admitting to a sin?
Regards
DL
Ephesians 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being
Because I master all things by The Messiah who empowers me.
--Phil 4:13
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2013, 04:12:04 PM
Quote from: onemaleWe are predestined dear to be as Jesus and God.
I don't disagree with this.
Just that I believe this will and does happen through Christ only.
In other words, it is not something that I can achieve on my own.
Can a teacher teach if the pupil refuses to learn?
It is all up to you to open to thinking and to write the laws of God on your heart.
You do this. No one else.
Jesus already gave and needs give no more.
Regards
DL
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2013, 04:23:40 PM
Quote from: One Male on February 06, 2013, 04:19:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2013, 04:12:04 PM
Quote from: onemaleWe are predestined dear to be as Jesus and God.
I don't disagree with this.
Just that this will and does happen through Christ.
You make a slave out of your master.
It is to you to do the work. Not to him.
You are to grab a hold of his coat tails and push him forward.
Do not make him drag you.
Has he not given enough already?
Regards
DL
well I think you are making some assumptions about me that are unwarranted.
I might be making some about you that are unwarranted, too.
maybe we could just try to communicate more clearly.
If by what you said above, you mean I should try meditation or something, just say that, instead of accusing me of something that doesn't even make sense to me.
What I say to you is just noise.
I try to speak in the language you know with this.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Many think it was man's fall when A & E opened theirs.
Do you dare to, be as Gods, in knowing good and evil.
God's own words of A & E.
Some Christians think that to be as Gods is a fall even as scripture tell us to do just that.
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Can you be like your Father without the knowledge of good and evil?
No you cannot but as you can see, you would have to go against the tradition that I spoke of above and that suggestion was negatively received.
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
What do you crave?
Tradition or God?
Regards
DL
Quote from: Molly on February 06, 2013, 04:34:54 PM
Ephesians 3:16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being
Because I master all things by The Messiah who empowers me.
--Phil 4:13
You recommend praying to Jesus while ignoring his words.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jesus almost always spoke in parables. Yet you take the words literally and do not seek the spiritual message he had to convey. And when he does speak words that can be taken literally as I quote, you seem to reject them.
Regards
DL
QuoteWhat I say to you is just noise.
This is true, sadly.
QuoteI try to speak in the language you know with this.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
I am the one who introduced that scripture into this thread as evidence that the Bible talks about what you call the 'third eye.'
QuoteYou have to decide if meditation is what you need to open your third eye or if opening it is even worthwhile.
Meditation is not what I need. It doesn't work for me. I use something which I call 'open eyed meditation.' I live my waking life in meditation.
QuoteDo you dare to, be as Gods, in knowing good and evil.
I could not spend one minute looking at evil without Christ standing right by my side. It would kill me.
QuoteMatthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We are perfect by definition in our relationship with Christ. The fact that we are in relationship with him guarantees our perfection. Perfection is a function of the relationship.
Can a teacher teach if the pupil refuses to learn?
It is all up to you to open to thinking and to write the laws of God on your heart.
You do this. No one else.
I used two eyes and found four different scriptures
that completely contradict your statement.
Hebrews 8;10
But this is the covenant
that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds
and write them on their hearts.I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
Hebrews 10:1 Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form of those realities, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year. 2 Otherwise, wouldn't they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, once purified, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in the sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, as He was coming into the world, He said:
You did not want sacrifice and offering,
but You prepared a body for Me.
6 You did not delight
in whole burnt offerings and sin offerings.
7 Then I said, "See—
it is written about Me
in the volume of the scroll—
I have come to do Your will, God!"[a]
8 After He says above, You did not want or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings (which are offered according to the law), 9 He then says, See, I have come to do Your will. He takes away the first to establish the second. 10 By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
11 Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. 12 But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. 13 He is now waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says:
16 This is the covenant I will make with them
after those days, says the Lord:
Daj, :thumbsup: :Peace2:
Quote from: One Male on February 06, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
Quote from: VineBranch on February 01, 2013, 04:19:20 AM
I can't find God, He has to find me. Without Him I can't even know He exists. Are you thinking of spirit quests?
Jesus said the spirit is within you.
It is so there is no need to seek it.
I was speaking of finding God.
Could you please read the last four sentences in sequence. The first one talks about finding God. The fourth one says you were talking about finding God. What, in your mind, happened such that the first sentence had magically said the oposite of what it reads, by the time you got to the fourth one?
Quote from: One Male on February 06, 2013, 04:14:50 PM
Do scriptures not say, seek and ye shall find, knock and it will be opened to you?
Yes they do.
Regards
DL
The place in the Old Testament in which that phrase appears is in Jeremiah: "Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jer 29:12-13)
I think it behooves us to note that God says, first we pray, and then He listens, and then we seek Him. After He has revealed Himself as existing, then we can go and seek and find Him. First He has to tell us He is, and that we are to go look for Him, and then He has to tell us where to look. Otherwise where would we look, it is best to seek Him where He may be found.
The New Testament uses the phrasing a few times, but, the only time Christ actually says anything about seeking Him specifically (and not a general encouragement), He says this: "Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come." (Joh 7:34)
May I encourage you to please keep verses in context, IMO the ones you mentioned actually say the opposite of what you imply they do.
Quote from: One Male on February 06, 2013, 05:11:49 PM
Do you dare to, be as Gods, in knowing good and evil.
God's own words of A & E.
Regards
DL
Could you reference that. I just read the story of The Fall, and didn't come across the part where God said that? Could you show me where it is?
Quote from: One Male on February 06, 2013, 04:57:46 PM
Can a teacher teach if the pupil refuses to learn?
Regards
DL
Easily!! Any teacher worth their salt can bypass any student's refusal to learn. They simply teach. Teaching and learning are not somehow like two sides of a coin. They are two different creatures, as far apart as reading is from writing. Refusing to learn is unnatural to a child. Refusing to learn about the Father, in my experience, has never been accomplished by anyone who loves Him.
By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
I reread my post, and this sort of caught my attention
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
Blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that sanctified the gold?
By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
Quote from: dajomaco on February 07, 2013, 06:31:49 AM
By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
I reread my post, and this sort of caught my attention
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
Blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that sanctified the gold?
By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
K(?!)
Quote from: dajomaco on February 07, 2013, 06:31:49 AM
By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
I reread my post, and this sort of caught my attention
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified.
Blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the sanctuary that sanctified the gold?
By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.
Yep. And, those he has justified, he will glorify. That's why the only important factor for perfection is relationship with him.