Will

[eaglesway]

The key difference between Nirvana and the kingdom of God is the blood of Jesus Christ.

No one will enter the ALL IN ALL until they have received the shed blood of Jesus Christ, in His name, and bowed the knee to His Lordship.

[ded2daworld]

I guess if someone doesn't realize the enormity of sin or even that they sin at all (some feel if they haven't killed anyone that they are a "good person")then they feel they deserve heaven and no covering of sin is needed. They feel they don't have to repent because they haven't done anything wrong.
Some feel they deserve heaven because they are a "better" person than the adulterous TV preacher.
In any case, almost everyone that believes there is a heaven also believes they are "probably" going to go there.

[VineBranch]

I guess if someone doesn't realize the enormity os sin or even that they sin at all (boiled down to they haven't killed anyone)
they feel they deserve heaven and no propitiation is needed.

I'm sorry ded, I've read this sentence over and over; I even stopped to make a cup of tea.  I have no idea what you mean.  Could you type really slow, use small words, and maybe some visual aids, I think my stupid gene just won the game.

[Molly]

Ded, that still makes us the same material as God.  Would it offend you if I pointed out that your example is the perfect description of Nirvana as shown by buddha?

I see a few differences.

1)Nirvana does not include Jesus Christ

2)Nirvana does not include us

I tried following this teaching for a while in my youth.  I can understand your objection to it.  Everything gets washed out in the great beyond.   Might as well take drugs.   :icon_jokercolor:

Thanks Molly:

By definition Christ would be God.  There are many schools of thought that see Nirvana as the great all (or the great nothing, depending on how you look at it), in which case it would definitely include us.

Of course, we would say Buddha's God would have to be Christ, but this was a non descript God, without a personality and of course, we also would lose our personality interacting with him at this high level of meditation--so this supposed Nirvana means leaving everything knowable [which is the illusion] for something not knowable.   For me, it was a matter of losing both yourself and God.

We know our God.  He has a personality.  We have a relationship with him.  He is himself and we are ourselves and we communicate and interact back and forth.  It's a totally different thing.

I found I couldn't love an abstraction.  And, for me, the joy is in the relationship with Christ.

[CHB]

Lets say for instance we do have free will, where would we have gotten it? God would have to instlll a free will within us I would think?  Since we are clay in the hands of the potter and we are being molded for his good pleasure wouldn't it stand to reason that if God gave us free will he would be in control of it? How is that free? So, it would still be his will and not ours that we would be acting upon.

I remember reading something about this in an article by L Ray Smith or Eby that made perfect sense but cannot look for it right now. If I can find it I will post it later.

CHB

[Molly]

How could we enter into relationship with someone without free will?

Could we enter into relationship with Hitler?  or Chairman Mao?  or Stalin?

We would not be free with them to express ourselves.  Say the wrong thing and you're dead.

Maybe it's hard to understand if you have come to God by fear instead of by volition.

People in fear are not free.

Does someone have to order you to love your babies?  At our most natural we love them and want to be with them and want to do everything we can to protect them and secure their well being.  You have to really mess a person up for that not to be true.

[eaglesway]

Lets say for instance we do have free will, where would we have gotten it? God would have to instlll a free will within us I would think?  Since we are clay in the hands of the potter and we are being molded for his good pleasure wouldn't it stand to reason that if God gave us free will he would be in control of it? How is that free? So, it would still be his will and not ours that we would be acting upon.

I remember reading something about this in an article by L Ray Smith or Eby that made perfect sense but cannot look for it right now. If I can find it I will post it later.

CHB

Yes, exactly, God would have to install it in us, or- create us in His image (He has free will)- but I am not saying that God does not interact on every level with us, including even the sons of disobedience(how can they disobey if they have no will?)

Also, I have never said that man has total sovereignty. As I see it he has freedom within a very large fence. When man tries too hard to break that fence he usually dies or gets saved.

And I don't claim to know how man's will(which is a better term than "free will" I think- jabcat turned me on to that) and the foreknowledge, predestination and election of God all work together- but I see clearly in the scriptures that they do.

I think to some extent we are on a "need to know" basis, and some things I do know how, but I read that they are both true. If I see two things in the scriptures, although they may seem to contradict- I usually assume that the truth is a hidden wisdom somewhere beyond the two poles of the paradox that is visible to me, or it is an issue of what I call, "measures and degrees"- but taking one pole or the other has never been an option for me- my thinking is built on what I see at face value in the scriptures- not saying I see it "right", just saying that's where I draw my reasoning.

[jabcat]

How could we enter into relationship with someone without free will?

Could we enter into relationship with Hitler?  or Chairman Mao?  or Stalin?

We would not be free with them to express ourselves.  Say the wrong thing and you're dead.

:bigGrin:  I'll accept we're required to make choices. and that man indeed has a will.  I personally don't see it as, or call it "free".  IMO, it has many constraints, influences, and limits.  Thanks be to God.   

Does someone have to order you to love your babies?  At our most natural we love them and want to be with them and want to do everything we can to protect them and secure their well being.  You have to really mess a person up for that not to be true.

I see that as the hand, gift, and workings of God within us.  One of his miracles He performs.

I'm somewhere in the middle of the extremes of free will/all sovereign.  I think we often get lost in semantics.

Semantics/schmemantics.  :laughing7:

[Molly]

I'll accept we're required to make choices. and that man indeed has a will. But I don't call it "free". IMO, it has many constraints and limits. Thanks be to God.

Maybe there is a difference, then, between free will and freedom.  Maybe that is where this discussion derails.

I do know that we have an ever increasing freedom in Christ.

But, then, I tend to think of freedom as being more about a bird soaring because that is what birds love to do, than about 'choices.'

I see that as the hand, gift, and workings of God in us.

Yeah.  I'm not expressing any of this very well.  My point was that a happy mother is free to express her love for her baby in every respect.   Just like being free to express our love for our God makes us happy.  In some countries, the freedom for neither one exists.

And, the fact that we can spend a lot of our lives not knowing a love for God [some people never know it], shows that it is not a requirement of everyone.  Just like having children is not for everyone. 

So the Bible says it is impossible to please God without faith.  Have I lost my freedom because God has given me the faith to believe in him?  Or has he restored me to my highest purpose?

When a woman has her first child is she surprised by how much she loves him?  And, does this enhance her life or detract from it?  If she never had that baby, she wouldn't know what she was missing, would she?

Yet, we still have choices, and the right to make the wrong choice. 

Jesus did have the choice to choose the cross or walk away from it.

But, his love and his joy at what it would mean compelled him to move forward.

If that were not true, the Spirit would not have mentioned it.

If he has freedom, so do we. 

[jabcat]

Good follow-up Molly.  I had already typed something to post,  but I'll put it at the end of my reply to you on this one.   :thumbsup:

Yes, I do believe there's a difference between freedom and free will.  Man has a will.  God sets us free from the power of sin.  Our reborn spirit doesn't sin, it's been set free.  But IMO, our flesh is still at work, which can often enslave us, as well as, I don't believe God just totally turns us loose, at any point, without exerting any influence whatsoever in our life.  So I personally don't see man's will as ever totally, completely, free.  IMO, even making choices willingly, is still not totally free.  Further IMO, if anything has a limitation at all, it may have some freedom attached to it or some responsibility attached and required, but again, I don't see that as free.  Again though, maybe there are some semantics involved, as well as (to bring back a piece of an old discussion) labels may be a stumbling-block to true understanding of the workings and beliefs.   :2c:  I just believe God's hand is ALWAYS influencing my life.  I may kick and scream and try to exert my own will, but the same Spirit that has set my spirit free, is the same Spirit that has made me both a friend and a slave to God (thankfully!) and compels me to follow Christ - often against what my own will would prefer.
----
So here's what I'd typed, and I believe it ties in.

I know it's hard (impossible?) to set doctrine based on one or sometimes, just a few scriptures.

On the one hand, there are multiple verses that show man is required to make choices.  I personally that's what they show though, is about choices and man's will needing to be brought into subjection of God's will - not describing a "free will", i.e., without influence, constraints, boundaries and limits.

On the other hand, I believe to attempt to prove a totally "free will", one that man is totally, fully in control of - without any influence or direction from God (IMO, that would be free will) the following scrips must be reconciled somehow;

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.  Romans 9:16

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.  Romans 9:18

For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.  Romans 11:32

Alright, that's my   :2c:.  Blessings all.

[Molly]

Too fast for me.

Here's the scripture that goes with my post.

..who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,

--Heb 12:2



"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

--John 15:13

[jabcat]

Too fast for me.

Here's the scripture that goes with my post.

..who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,

--Heb 12:2



"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

--John 15:13

Amen. 

[eaglesway]

How could we enter into relationship with someone without free will?

Could we enter into relationship with Hitler?  or Chairman Mao?  or Stalin?

We would not be free with them to express ourselves.  Say the wrong thing and you're dead.

:bigGrin:  I'll accept we're required to make choices. and that man indeed has a will.  I personally don't see it as, or call it "free".  IMO, it has many constraints, influences, and limits.  Thanks be to God.   

Does someone have to order you to love your babies?  At our most natural we love them and want to be with them and want to do everything we can to protect them and secure their well being.  You have to really mess a person up for that not to be true.

I see that as the hand, gift, and workings of God within us.  One of his miracles He performs.

I'm somewhere in the middle of the extremes of free will/all sovereign.  I think we often get lost in semantics.

Semantics/schmemantics.  :laughing7:

I have written an awful lot of stuff to say that :o) Thanks James  :gimmefive:

[Molly]

I don't believe God just totally turns us loose, at any point, without exerting any influence whatsoever in our life.

So I personally don't see man's will as ever totally, completely, free.  IMO, even making choices willingly, is still not totally free

If that were true, how did I manage to make some horrible choices that caused my poor guardian angels to gnash their teeth and tear their hair out? :laughing7:

Why does the father allow the prodigal son to slop the pigs instead of rushing out and kidnapping him and bringing him home?

[jabcat]

And here's another one that goes with mine.   :gimmefive:

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?  Romans 9:21

So one way I can conceptualize it?  God's on top of the hierarchy, we're down below.  His will is supreme, He's given us some room, within specific parameters He has set, to move around and learn and grow, make decisions and choices. All with the view in mind of a)accomplishing His purposes, and b) to bring us all into accord with His will - which is, that all men be saved.   :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.

The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.

I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God  :doh:

What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)

God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.

When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.

[jabcat]

I don't believe God just totally turns us loose, at any point, without exerting any influence whatsoever in our life.

So I personally don't see man's will as ever totally, completely, free.  IMO, even making choices willingly, is still not totally free

If that were true, how did I manage to make some horrible choices that caused my poor guardian angels to gnash their teeth and tear their hair out? :laughing7:

Why does the father allow the prodigal son to slop the pigs instead of rushing out and kidnapping him and bringing him home?

:) Did they ever completely leave you?  Did God totally let you go, or did He bring you back?  The father allowing the prodigal son to do what he did, IMO, in no way shows "free will".  It does, IMO, show that the son was required to make choices, there were consequences, he learned from them.  Also, notice that we both said "allowed".  (Operating within parameters set by the f/Father).   :2c:

[jabcat]

The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.

The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.

I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God  :doh:

What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)

God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.

When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.

I know.  I think you're personally somewhere in the middle with me.

[jabcat]

"Here I am, stuck in the middle with you.  And I'm wonderin' what it is I should do...Brothers to the left of me, sisters to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you.." :skittles:

[eaglesway]

When you are trying to establish the extreme, people in the middle are an irritation(my function- irritant)..........

But sometimes the people in the middle are holding the center, so the people out on the edges can explore the extremes HAHAHA.

In the end, we will all be in one mind and one accord, and we will know as we are known :o)

[jabcat]

Amen to that.  Yeah, I see the extremes as being, "God is so totally in control, man can't make a move without God having made them do it", or, "it's totally up to us whether we serve God or not, or whether we choose Him", etc.

The definition of free will varies from person to person.

Yeah, but I'm obsessive-compulsive.  My bad.  You know how some people just love cilantro?  It may generally be a very good herb, but I just personally hate it.  Don't ever put any of it in my food.   :pointlaugh:

[eaglesway]

yes. However, when in Mexico, the cilantro is known as cilantro no matter what you call it, so when talking to Mexicans calling it anything else creates the need for another big long explanation. At the end of it the intelligent Mexican will say, "Oh You mean cilantro"

HAHAHA

[jabcat]

another big long explanation. At the end of it the intelligent Mexican will say, "Oh You mean cilantro"

HAHAHA

Or maybe that intelligent Mexican could be calling something by the wrong name.   :angel4:

Maybe the gringo was really trying to describe basil.   :laugh:

[Illuin]

The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.

The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.

I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God  :doh:

What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)

God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.

When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.

I know.  I think you're personally somewhere in the middle with me.

IMO - what seems like our own choices, are really "caused" choices used by God for His purposes:

• Genesis 45:4-5 "And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life."

When all was said and done, in the end Joseph saved his entire family from certain death in a famine. At the end of it all Joseph, a type of Jesus Christ, gives us the reason and purpose for the evil choices of his "brethren":

• Genesis 50:20-21 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much [ALL] people alive. Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them."

And we find the same situation with Samson:

• Judges 14:1-3 "Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines.  So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, 'I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.' Then his father and mother said to him, 'Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?' And Samson said to his father, 'Get her for me, for she pleases me well.'"

Here we go:

• Judges 14:4 "But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel."

Was Samson's self-willed, disobedient decision to marry a 'daughter of the Philistines' really "after the counsel of God's own will?" (Ephesians 1:11). Here is the blunt, straight-up answer from the Word of God:

• "But his father and his mother knew not that it [Samson's stubborn, disobedient self-will] WAS OF THE LORD, THAT HE SOUGHT AN OCCASION AGAINST THE PHILISTINES..." (Judges 14:4).

[VineBranch]

Yeah, but I'm obsessive-compulsive.  My bad.  You know how some people just love cilantro?  It may generally be a very good herb, but I just personally hate it.  Don't ever put any of it in my food.   :pointlaugh:

Okay, I'll send you some Chinese Parsley, I think you will just love it. :pointlaugh: