Will

[eaglesway]

The definition of free will varies from person to person. I have said over and over that I don't believe man's will is totally free, it is free within parameters set by God.

The folks I have been disagreeing with have asserted that man has no free will on any level. I feel that is an error that disembowels the scriptures.

I disagree strenuosly with the idea that if I sin, God caused it, because He is sovereign. If that were the case Jesus would have to die for God  :doh:

What I do believe however, that God is training us to be TOTALLY FREE, on a graduating curve related to love :o)

God is not afraid of us. We will grow up to be like Him. Creative. Abounding in grace. Overflowing with love and good will.

When we get there we will no longer need and governors or parameters. We will be free and there will be no limits and we will all flow together in the ALL IN ALL. Creating, co-operating, laughing, building, loving, traveling, enjoying.

I know.  I think you're personally somewhere in the middle with me.

IMO - what seems like our own choices, are really "caused" choices used by God for His purposes:

• Genesis 45:4-5 "And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life."

When all was said and done, in the end Joseph saved his entire family from certain death in a famine. At the end of it all Joseph, a type of Jesus Christ, gives us the reason and purpose for the evil choices of his "brethren":

• Genesis 50:20-21 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much [ALL] people alive. Now therefore fear ye not: I will nourish you, and your little ones. And he comforted them, and spake kindly unto them."

And we find the same situation with Samson:

• Judges 14:1-3 "Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines.  So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, 'I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife.' Then his father and mother said to him, 'Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?' And Samson said to his father, 'Get her for me, for she pleases me well.'"

Here we go:

• Judges 14:4 "But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord—that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel."

Was Samson's self-willed, disobedient decision to marry a 'daughter of the Philistines' really "after the counsel of God's own will?" (Ephesians 1:11). Here is the blunt, straight-up answer from the Word of God:

• "But his father and his mother knew not that it [Samson's stubborn, disobedient self-will] WAS OF THE LORD, THAT HE SOUGHT AN OCCASION AGAINST THE PHILISTINES..." (Judges 14:4).

I see no disagreement here. God causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will(Eph 1). The Lord may use any and all of our decisions, even those He lets us make freely- and does.

God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

Even our mistakes abound in gracious recovery because of His great love for us.

That God uses us as we are does not mean that He causes evrything we do.

Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
(Jas 1:12-14)

[jabcat]

Yeah, but I'm obsessive-compulsive.  My bad.  You know how some people just love cilantro?  It may generally be a very good herb, but I just personally hate it.  Don't ever put any of it in my food.   :pointlaugh:

Okay, I'll send you some Chinese Parsley, I think you will just love it. :pointlaugh:

LOL.  Alright!!!

[Molly]

God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

I read that scripture for years before I noticed the compound sentence, "and are called according to his purpose."

So doesn't that imply that you may not be called according to his purpose and just messing up all on your own? 

My second question is just as strange--

Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault? 

This is the problem I see with extreme determinism [no free will].

[eaglesway]

Well, we get to say it, that don't make it true ;o)

"Extreme determinism" is a good term for what I reject as the polar extreme of God's sovereign will.

Notice, in Ephesians 1 it says God causes "all things" to work according to the counsel of His will- His kind intention(eudokia-good will) which He purposed in Christ. To me thats the big fence, within which thereis a measure of freedom through which we learn called stewardship, called discipleship, for the pupose of growing up sons.

Also, In Romans it says "who love God and are called according to His purpose"

Love is first :o)

Everyone of us is called according to His purpose, which is summed up in the two great commandments, which are both about love.

IMO-If we love God, we ARE called according to His purpose.

In the ultimate sense- all things are working together for the good of everyone(God loves evryone). In the short term sense, the household of faith reaps an immediate benefit of grace and the Father is intimately involved in everything we are and do.

[Illuin]

It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.

• John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

[eaglesway]

It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.

• John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

That is an interesting opinion. Extreme and IMO, incorrect.

The truth that makes one free is  intimate fellowship with the truth Himself, Jesus.

[Illuin]

It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.

• John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

That is an interesting opinion. Extreme and IMO, incorrect.


The truth that makes one free is  intimate fellowship with the truth Himself, Jesus.

Exactly, intimate fellowship with the Living Word of God - the Way, the Truth, and the Life. An "untruth" is not in fellowship with Christ, and can only lead to bondage, not freedom.

[eaglesway]

Your doctrinal perspective is not the definition of truth. The person of Jesus is. You may capitalize the word truth, but His ways and the essence of His life are just as much a part of the truth, who is a person.

Untruth is also the improper emphasis of a particular perspective. Yours is a particular perspective and you are welcome to express it and stand on it.

I, and anyone else who disagrees is welcome to question it.

[VineBranch]

My moments of greatest freedom - and peace - are those times of weakness, when I realize I'm unable within myself;  when He brings me to more fully trust Him.

One of the verses God has been showing me for a very long time (in fact I got it on a plaque from some friends when I graduated High School) is "Be still and know that I am God..." Psalm 46:10.

When I was taking some Bible courses I thought it would be neat to look it up in Latin (everything seems so much more wise when you say it in another language:  people think you is really learned good).  Well, I couldn't find it.  I tried every word I could think of for still and know ... sorry, not there.  In the Vulgate it was attached to another psalm, and it didn't say be still, it read be empty (vacate et videte).

Nay nay said I, Jerome what have you done?  I decided to look it up in the Hebrew, and guess what ... are you guessing?  It actually says, be so empty and weary (like after a brutal day of exhausting work and you can't walk another step), and you will see that I am God.  In other words, when you get to the point where your thinking can't interfere with your seeing, you will plainly see that He is God.  Believe it or not, I got chills up and down my spine when I read this.  When you are just too tired, or too weak to get in your own way, you get a glimpse of God.

[jabcat]

My moments of greatest freedom - and peace - are those times of weakness, when I realize I'm unable within myself;  when He brings me to more fully trust Him.

One of the verses God has been showing me for a very long time (in fact I got it on a plaque from some friends when I graduated High School) is "Be still and know that I am God..." Psalm 46:10.

When I was taking some Bible courses I thought it would be neat to look it up in Latin (everything seems so much more wise when you say it in another language:  people think you is really learned good).  Well, I couldn't find it.  I tried every word I could think of for still and know ... sorry, not there.  In the Vulgate it was attached to another psalm, and it didn't say be still, it read be empty (vacate et videte).

Nay nay said I, Jerome what have you done?  I decided to look it up in the Hebrew, and guess what ... are you guessing?  It actually says, be so empty and weary (like after a brutal day of exhausting work and you can't walk another step), and you will see that I am God.  In other words, when you get to the point where your thinking can't interfere with your seeing, you will plainly see that He is God.  Believe it or not, I got chills up and down my spine when I read this.  When you are just too tired, or too weak to get in your own way, you get a glimpse of God.

:angelharp:

Less of me, more of Him.  Amen.

[Illuin]

Your doctrinal perspective is not the definition of truth. The person of Jesus is. You may capitalize the word truth, but His ways and the essence of His life are just as much a part of the truth, who is a person.

Untruth is also the improper emphasis of a particular perspective. Yours is a particular perspective and you are welcome to express it and stand on it.

I, and anyone else who disagrees is welcome to question it.

I'm really not even sure what we are debating here, to be honest.  :Chinscratch: I would ask you to refer to my post #273 for my "so-called" doctrinal position. Of course Jesus 'IS' the Truth, and I think it's safe to say that we are both beyond the milk here. But this has nothing to do with the point I was making. I see this doctrine "free-will" as a no-brainer. Maybe it's just me, but Scripturally speaking, I see free-will as being literally impossible. If you see this as extreme, I don't know what to tell you.  :dontknow:

• Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL."

"All things" cannot be being worked after mankind's free will and at the same time being worked "after the counsel of God's own will." There is no such thing as two free wills working "all things." It is not possible.

How can God have "a lamb slain from the foundation of the world," and know in advance about our "calling in Christ... before the world began," if He had not already predestined Adam, and every one of us "in Adam" to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? 

Because of this doctrine of 'free will' Adam, who we are told could have obeyed God 'of his own free will,' chose instead to disobey God and eat of the fruit. Such doctrine would have you to believe that because God asked Adam "Where art thou?" that God did this because He didn't have a clue where Adam was.

Of course this is not true. God knew precisely where Adam was. And the fact that God told Adam not to eat of the fruit does not mean that He did not know exactly what Adam was going to do. He did know exactly what Adam was going to do. He had already prepared the sacrifice for the sin that He already knew Adam was about to commit.

Do we all make decisions every day of our lives? Of course. However, as was mentioned in my previous post concerning Samson and Joseph (#273), God's Word illustrates that these choices that we make are  NOT free of the influence of outside factors. The Scriptures do not deny that we have a will, but do deny that we have a "free will." Our will is only as free as "clay in the Potter's hand."

And as to my above quote concerning true "freedom," the doctrine of 'free-will' is akin to that one pivotal 'light bulb' in a string of Christmas lights, that, when faulty or damaged, ALL the other light bulbs in the string also won't light. It is one bad apple that spoils the whole barrel; the little bit of leaven that leavens the whole lump. A large majority of the false doctrines - along with those "in bondage" to those same false doctrines - are the direct and/or indirect result of the doctrine of free-will.   :wacko2:

[eaglesway]

Well brother :o)..... I am not saying, nor have I ever said, man's will is "free of outside influences". In fact, I don't know anyone who defines the man's will, or free will, in that way.
All I have said is that God has given man a measure of free will within certain parameters in order to grow "sons of god" to reign with Christ over the Fathers estate.

I have read your posts completely. Perhaps you ought to read mine before you define my position in ways that are not accurate.

There is a balance between a view in which God determines every outcome by micro managing every thought and action of man, and a view in which man has been given a "measure of faith" as a stewardship in which he must grow in maturity and discipleship.

This balance is what I am sharing- not some view where man is "free from any outside influence".

There is a tendency to inject "ridiculous extremes" onto another persons point of view when it is different than yours. It is not really a productive way to communicate and grow.

[Illuin]

Well brother :o)..... I am not saying, nor have I ever said, man's will is "free of outside influences". In fact, I don't know anyone who defines the man's will, or free will, in that way.
All I have said is that God has given man a measure of free will within certain parameters in order to grow "sons of god" to reign with Christ over the Fathers estate.

I have read your posts completely. Perhaps you ought to read mine before you define my position in ways that are not accurate.

There is a balance between a view in which God determines every outcome by micro managing every thought and action of man, and a view in which man has been given a "measure of faith" as a stewardship in which he must grow in maturity and discipleship.

This balance is what I am sharing- not some view where man is "free from any outside influence".

There is a tendency to inject "ridiculous extremes" onto another persons point of view when it is different than yours. It is not really a productive way to communicate and grow.

Pardon me? I most certainly did not inject anything into your point of view, I wasn't speaking about your point of view, nor did I define your point of view, and I do not appreciate the accusation. That is twice now that you have misrepresented my words and accused me of saying something I did not. I was speaking to no one in particular and simply discussing matters dealing with the topic of the thread. In fact, it was you who incorrectly (and smugly) defined my position, not I. It would seem that perhaps you are seeing a speck in your brother's eye that may in turn be the reflection of your own speck.

[Molly]

Just about any dog I could get would love me.  Dogs are built that way with few exceptions-- bred or made to love their master.

However, I could do things to change that outcome. I could be a brutal and cruel master and turn a dog who was determined to love me into a dog who hates me.  That is more my choice than the dog's choice.  Do I have the free will to do that?  Does he have the free will to hate me if I do?

[Molly]

It is only when one comes to the realization there is no free-will, that he is truly free.

• John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

That's kind of a conundrum.

When you realize you are not free, you are free?

But--

you have been called to live in freedom

--Gal 5:13

[micah7:9]

God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

I read that scripture for years before I noticed the compound sentence, "and are called according to his purpose."

So doesn't that imply that you may not be called according to his purpose and just messing up all on your own? 

My second question is just as strange--

Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault? 

This is the problem I see with extreme determinism [no free will].

"Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault? "

No, but when we are brought to the wisdom and understanding that God is the CAUSE of all things, then we are free.

[Molly]

Sorry, I don't get that.

Free of what?  Responsibility?  :dontknow:

But I don't want to be free of responsibility.

It keeps me on my toes.

[VineBranch]

Do we get to say to God, as Adam did, it's all your fault?
This is the problem I see with extreme determinism [no free will].

Are we sure Adam is blaming God when he says this?  Could Adam be saying something like ... "the woman you brought to the party knocked it over, maybe you could take her back"?  Does it have to be Adam blaming God for the result?

[VineBranch]

That's kind of a conundrum.
When you realize you are not free, you are free?

I've heard this in another context Molly.  Igor Stravinsky said it was when his music was most structured, that it was most free.

[eaglesway]

Illium, you quoted me in the post. So it appeared that you were speaking to me.

I once heard it said that, "God leaves the specks for people with logs to stumble over". We all have our specks and logs.

There is no need ot get all up in arms, I was just responding in kind to your post. This is a discussion blog. If you are quoting me in your post, I assume you are responding to me in some measure, so I responded to you. If I misinterpreted what you were saying i apologize, but let's not be coy, let's just stand behind what we say and agree to disagree :o)

[VineBranch]

If there is no human 'will' capable of determining the outcome of anything in a meaningful way, would it make a difference?  If it would make a difference, why?

If God were to come and me one day and say "You don't have what people call free-will; I created you to love you and have you love me.  I created the universe because it pleased me to do so, and I created you because it pleased me to so as well."  The only reason I can think of that might be upsetting is that my ego would have taken a hit.

A few months ago I told a friend that I had come to the realization that I was loved, and cherished, and valued, but what I was not was necessary.  Again, the only reason I could think of that that might upset someone is that it is an ego hit.

Do we have to be necessary, or relevant?  God created me because it pleased Him to do so.  God is sui generis, I am not.  God is God, I am not.  Is it so frightening to think that in and of myself, I don't matter?  Is it so frightening to think what I do isn't some how needed or important?

A child may be given a tiny plastic steering wheel in a car seat, and may look out the window and turn that wheel, but no one except the child thinks s/he is actually driving the car.  I matter because God says so, and for no other reason.  I don't need 'free-will' anymore to make me feel important, or relevant.  I am important and relevant to God, because He is who is, not because I am who I am.  I guess in the same way all gold is gold, all dross is dross.

[eaglesway]

Altho I understand your point- we are not perhaps necessary to the universe of other worlds and other lives outside our own in the sense that God is, for we are certainly not God, but..............

If the entire universe of "beings" is of a fabric(as I believe, which means nothing either LOL, but if it is :o), we are all interwoven. What child would not be devastated to know they were not important to their father and mother and brother and sisters and friends.

I think the bigger hit to the ego is that we are important, but we are not always given to understand how- so that God recieves the glory when we perservere in love because He has asked us to, even without our having glimpsed the reward.

[dajomaco]

You may capitalize the word truth, but His ways and the essence of His life are just as much a part of the truth, who is a person.

Jesus and him crucified is all I know.
The essence of his live were for those you partake in eating his flesh
and drinking his blood. That is the only way to know him.
You can receive the gift but you can't be the gift or act like the gift.

IMO Her Is a real conundrum free will is what has held the
church in the believe of eternal torment. Untill they are set free from this mind set
they can not be free.


And as to my above quote concerning true "freedom," the doctrine of 'free-will' is akin to that one pivotal 'light bulb' in a string of Christmas lights, that, when faulty or damaged, ALL the other light bulbs in the string also won't light. It is one bad apple that spoils the whole barrel; the little bit of leaven that leavens the whole lump. A large majority of the false doctrines - along with those "in bondage" to those same false doctrines - are the direct and/or indirect result of the doctrine of free-will.   
« Last Edit: Today at 09:40:16 AM by Illuin »

[lomarah]

Wow, the lightbulb analogy is so good! That just blew my mind! (Hopefully not a bulb though....  :eek: )

[sheila]

WELL..THE FAILING PART...REALIZING BY YOUR OWN WILL YOU CAN DO NOTHING..IS THE VANITY YOU WERE

  SUBJECTED TO[THAT NO FLESH BOAST]  FOR BEFORE EITHER ONE HAD DONE EVIL OR GOOD..IN ORDER THAT

  THE CHOOSING WOULD BE DEPENDANT ON GOD..AND NOT ON HIM WISHING OR DESIRING...........[OR MAN'S WILL]

AND NOT GOD'S.

  AND REGARDING FREE WILL DOCTRINE BEING AN ERROR.......UPON WHICH MANY MISUNDERSTANDINGS/ERRORS

COME FROM.  THIS IS TRUE IN ANY MATTER AND WE ARE TOLD TO BE CAREFUL HOW WE BUILD..FOR STRAW/WOOD ETC
 
IS PERISHABLE NOT THE ETERNAL..AND IT DOES CAUSE LOSS OF YOUR PORTION IN THE HOLY CITY[LIGHT]

  ACTUALLY WHEN HE COMES AND WAGES WAR IN RIGHTEOUS AND TRUTH THE SWORD OUT OF HIS MOUTH

SEPERATES AND DESTROYS THE FALSE PROPHET FROM THE TRUE,THE BEAST/CARNAL FROM THE SPIRITUAL


   HIS DOING THESE THINGS FOR THOSE WHO HE TEACHES IN THIS REALM...AS PREPARING THEM TO RULE AND JUDGE

RIGHTLY..IT IS PARAMOUNT THEY REALIZE IT WAS NOT OF THEIR OWN WILL..BUT HIS IN THEM CAUSING THEM TO WISH AND

TO DO HIS WILL...YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOUR OWN WILL[VANITY] YOU MUST REMAIN IN HIS WILL/FATHER'S WILL

TO HAVE LIFE[YOU CAN DO NOTHING[VANITY] OF YOURSELVES...REMAIN IN ME..THEN YOU CAN BEAR FRUIT