Hey everyone,
I know that all universalist do not agree on all the statements below, I just ask you to pick out the questions that pertain to your thinking or theology and simply give scripture references for your answers. If you refuse to answer the statements, you are telling me that you believe in a theology that does not require you to give scripture references and you simply put your faith in something that is not biblical. How can I learn your theology without you giving direct scripture evidence of the statements below? I'm excited for you to defend and teach me from scripture the following statements below.
PLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.
Please state the scripture chapter and verse where it states
1. God is limited by our death.
Paul,
This post is to understand your theology, not mine. Please answer the statements biblically or don't. Thanks.
Seeing the nature of my question will help you understand.
One biblical answer is seeing what the bible does not say all your questions hinge on seeing the limitation that God is limited by our death.
So a great factor in understanding our theology is understanding that there is not one word about God being limited by our death.
Paul,
I understand what your saying, but this is your chance to prove your theology from the bible that God is not limited. Saying "prove to me that God is limited by our death" is answering rhetorically. Answer the statements biblically or don't. I'm trying to understand your theology, not you understanding mine. This thread is to teach me from the word of God your theology or don't. Please do not respond rhetorically and waste our time. Thanks.
Wasting time is a matter of perspective. I actually am presenting biblical proof by explaining what the bible does not say concerning your questions.
If others respond differently then that is their preogative. This is also for readers of your questions to gain perspective.
I will respond to #3
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1C 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
This is something ALL will do and if some say that a person died before bowing and confessing that Jesus is Lord, then they do it after death on earth as this passage proclaims.
If all do it, then some who were wicked when they died are doing it after they die and since no one can say that without the Holy Ghost then then something has happened to the wicked who died on earth to get the holy ghost in order to say it after they die.
This is the perspective of God not being limited by our earthly death that is causing you to perhaps not understand.
There is no waste of time, if you are sincere about understanding, then discuss all the aspects of how this theology can be seen in scripture.
Thanks Paul for responding to #3,
Answering rhetorically is a waste of time. I would like to address the scriptures you gave for the wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the afterlife.
Phillipians 2:10-11. The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord. (Ps 2). This mandate includes the angels in heaven ( Rev 4:2-9), the spirits of the redeemed ( Rev 4: 10-11), obedient believers on earth ( Rom 10:9), the disobedient rebels on earth ( 2 Th 1:7-9), demons and lost humanity in hell (1 Pet 3:18-22). The Gr. word for "confess" means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
! Cor 12:3 Look above for explanation.
You have given no evidence that the wicked accept Jesus in the after life to be saved according to these scriptures.
Good post Paul. Perhaps others can get to more specifics later. One "little" thing I like about the scripture you quoted, that IMO, makes it even more powerful, if that's possible. Some translations, including the KJV say "by"...an even more literal translation is "IN" the Holy (or Pure) Spirit. I think that's cool. :thumbsup:
Thanks Paul for responding to #3,
Answering rhetorically is a waste of time. I would like to address the scriptures you gave for the wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the afterlife.
Phillipians 2:10-11. The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord. (Ps 2). This mandate includes the angels in heaven ( Rev 4:2-9), the spirits of the redeemed ( Rev 4: 10-11), obedient believers on earth ( Rom 10:9), the disobedient rebels on earth ( 2 Th 1:7-9), demons and lost humanity in hell (1 Pet 3:18-22). The Gr. word for "confess" means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
! Cor 12:3 Look above for explanation.
You have given no evidence that the wicked accept Jesus in the after life to be saved according to these scriptures.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 08:59:04 AM
You have given no evidence that the wicked accept Jesus in the after life to be saved according to these scriptures.
That's just a declaration that you do not agree, your assertion is false. I gave evidence, your disagreement is irrelevant to proving that I did not.
Please refrain from your own rhetoric if you are going to tell me not to respond in such a manner.
Q for you 37. Do you honestly want to learn, or rather attempt to refute? There are many studies on these topics on TM home page. It would honestly help me decide to get into specifics with you if I knew you were open and searching as opposed to looking for opportunity to debate and attempt to prove your own position.
For instance, I asked you in an earlier post regarding your belief on aonios/eternal, hoping to clarify your stance regarding eternal punishment, etc. ; and I may be mistaken, but I don't belief you answered me. So honestly, I question your motives in asking these questions.
If you truly want to learn, great. If not, you may find that many will not attempt to persuade the unpersuadable. God will do that later in one degree or another with us all.
James.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 09:02:03 AM
! Cor 12:3 Look above for explanation.
1C 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
This is not explained above at all. The Holy Ghost enables someone to confess and one of the rock solid tenants of a path with Christ is having the Holy Ghost.
So to say someone has the Holy Ghost and is still damned is a contradiction.
Quote from: jabcat on August 16, 2009, 09:00:45 AM
Good post Paul. Perhaps others can get to more specifics later. One "little" thing I like about the scripture you quoted, that IMO, makes it even more powerful, if that's possible. Some translations, including the KJV say "by"...an even more literal translation is "IN" the Holy (or Pure) Spirit. I think that's cool. :thumbsup:
The passage in philippians applies to every single person and have yet to see even Eternal Hell believing Christians be able to say otherwise. The one in 1 Corinthians is a supporting scripture that tells us the manner in which they confess.
So it is a blatent contradiction to any tenant of the Christian faith to say that someone with the Holy Ghost could confess Jesus as Lord and be damned for all eternity.
Hey James,
Both. I just don't believe something because you say so. If you can teach your position with proper interpretation than I will concede to the truth. No problem, No one is beyond learning. There is the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error and it's up to you to be able to discern the two by the Holy Spirit.
Paul,
In Mark 1:24, there is an instance where demons cried out that Jesus was the Holy one of God and yet we know that demons aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will bow and confess unwillingly and painfully.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 09:33:39 AM
Paul,
In Mark 1:24, there is an instance where demons cried out that Jesus was the Holy one of God and yet we know that demons aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will bow and confess unwillingly and painfully.
Edit (had second thoughts about what I wrote here if you saw it before editing)
As scripture states, no one can confess Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit enabling them to do so. The scripture in philippians includes someone who died on this earth as a wicked person. So, you have not explained how that wicked person then confessing Jesus as Lord by the Holy Ghost is still damned for all eternity.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 09:33:39 AM
Paul,
In Mark 1:24, there is an instance where demons cried out that Jesus was the Holy one of God and yet we know that demons aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will bow and confess unwillingly and painfully.
Mk 1:24 Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
This is a statement of their knowledge, there is no account here of them confessing Jesus as THEIR LORD
Hey Paul,
Because the wicked are bowing and confessing unwillingly and painfully. The Holy Spirit forces them to confess. The righteous confess willingly and joyfully. The wicked do it unwillingly and painful.
Paul,
The demon affirmed Jesus' sinlessness and deity. the Holy one of God.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 09:49:25 AM
Hey Paul,
Because the wicked are bowing and confessing unwillingly and painfully. The Holy Spirit forces them to confess. The righteous confess willingly and joyfully. The wicked do it unwillingly and painful.
Please reply biblically if you expect others to do so.
Provide scripture that details "The wicked bowing and confessing unwillingly and painfully through the Holy spirit" And how that according to philippians 2:11 is "To the Glory of God the Father" Since this scripture contradicts that idea.
Ezk 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Provide Scripture that details "The holy spirit forcing them to confess in the manner you say "unwillingly and painfully"
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 09:53:35 AM
Paul,
The demon affirmed Jesus' sinlessness and deity. the Holy one of God.
That's not the issue, this is not an account of them "confessing Jesus as LORD"
It is their knowledge of who he is, there is a difference.
Even an Atheist can read the bible and say that the bible says that Jesus is Saviour, the son of God and see that he was sinless and that is biblical knowledge, but that is not the Atheist confessing Jesus as Lord.
Mk 1:24 Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
:cloud9: He did it in the first chapter of Genesis when He looked back on ALL the days, which were DARKNESS and light, and said they were good, even VERY good. Since darkness means ignorance, that includes those who are ignorant of Him in this life.
And since He knows the end from the beginning and He 'wins', He was able to look back on those that stayed in the mentality of the first 6 days, knowing that their end was to be consumed into Him, as all came from and return to, God the Father.
A day is like a thousand years to God. We are in the 6th day from Adam and the 3rd from Christ. He said to tell Herod that fox (a type of the carnal mind) that today and tomorrow (2 days or 2000 years) He would do cures and cast out devils but the THIRD DAY, He would be perfected (means completed in Hebrew). We know He was already perfect or complete, so He was not talking about Himself the Head, but of His body, whose body we ALL are, ie. He died for ALL men, that ALL men might be saved.
We are therefore in the dawning of the 7th day, a day of no part darkness, when ALL of the darkness of the previous 6 is getting ready to be pronounced good, even very good, which denotes a change of nature, ie. from darkness to light, the light of Father and the Son. Blessings....
Since it is apparent that you have your mindset set locked into what you believe, i believe you want to sow seeds of dissent, for whatever reasons you have.
i have no desire to try to change someones mind, if they don't want it changed, but i will give you this one piece of scripture that imo says ALL will come to Jesus:
Isa 26:9 -
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
i know, i know , i know the next verse says they do not learn.........but verse 10 is talking about their present time.
vs 9 is talking about later........and you ask when? When Gods" judgement is come upon the earth"
and when is that? it hasn't happened yet
Hey lookingup,
No one is beyond learning including myself. If you can answer these statements biblically with sound interpretation than I will concede to the truth of the word of God. But, if you cannot provide adequate support of these statements biblically and with sound interpretation, why would I believe you or anyone else?
Paul,
The Gr. word for "confess" means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 05:04:52 PM
Paul,
The Gr. word for "confess" means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
Please scripturally show your point as I have. Your entitled to your commentary, but I do not have to believe you just because you say so.
This one word confess is not rightly used when you use it by itself then give non scriptural commentary to what it means.
Please use scripture that depicts a "Confession" of "Jesus as Lord" "For the Glory of God the Father" that would be a forced and painful confession that is the precursor to eternal damnation.
I simply know you cannot do it, or as you expect of others you would have been armed with those scriptures before you ever came here.
Paul,
Again, this thread is for you to prove your theology to me from the word of God. Thanks.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 06:17:24 PM
Paul,
Again, this thread is for you to prove your theology to me from the word of God. Thanks.
I gave scriptural evidence, you responded to that scriptural evidence with explanations that you provide no scriptural match for. Saying the above does not change that.
Dear brother,
If one is truly seeking to understand, and they do so by asking questions, I would suggest that instead of posting refutations after someone gives what they see as a biblically sound reason, just take what they say and try to understand it from their point of view. You are, after all, seeking to understand why people believe the way they do, not necessarily to agree with them. When you post a refutation, all that does is betray the very reason you say you are asking the questions. That is what I believe they are asking for here. Just let them post their response and take it to yourself so as to try to understand where they are coming from, whether you agree with it or not. Or, if you do ask further questions, perhaps ask those that bring out clarification as to any points you do not quite understand from their point of view.
Ron
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 06:17:24 PM
Paul,
Again, this thread is for you to prove your theology to me from the word of God. Thanks.
Do you really think one person can
prove a truth of God to another? The Spirit of God is the One who enlightens, not some puny proof of man that would be rejected in a million ways as you are proving over and over again.
Your very challenge amuses me and tells me much about yourself my friend.
cp
Hey Greg,
If your theology is true than you will be able to give sound exegesis of scripture to support it. I believe Paul to be in error of his scripture support.Truth sets people free, but error enslaves. There is a truth, there is that which is "right," and God wants us to know it (1 Tim. 2:4). I just don't agree with him.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 08:09:23 PM
Hey Greg,
If your theology is true than you will be able to give sound exegesis of scripture to support it. I believe Paul to be in error of his scripture support.Truth sets people free, but error enslaves. There is a truth, there is that which is "right," and God wants us to know it (1 Tim. 2:4). I just agree with him.
See, Chosen, now you are adding to what you originally said. You originally stated you will believe only 'sound exegesis' yet now you will only believe WHAT YOU BELIEVE TO BE sound exegesis. So again I say, no person can ever give you answers to your questions that you could accept because you are already very much set in what you believe to be true.
cp
Cp,
I welcome you to answer any of the 10 statements with sound scripture support. Thanks.
Do you mean sound Scriptural support that you believe is sound Scriptural support or just plain old sound Scriptural support?
There is a great chasm between the two so I need to know which one you mean.
Thanks.
cp
QuoteHey everyone,
I know that all universalist do not agree on all the statements below, I just ask you to pick out the questions that pertain to your thinking or theology and simply give scripture references for your answers. If you refuse to answer the statements, you are telling me that you believe in a theology that does not require you to give scripture references and you simply put your faith in something that is not biblical. How can I learn your theology without you giving direct scripture evidence of the statements below? I'm excited for you to defend and teach me from scripture the following statements below.
PLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life. Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Psa 100:5 For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.
Psa 136:25 Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.
Psa 143:12 And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I [am] thy servant.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life. 1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire. Isa 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD [is] a God of judgment: blessed [are] all they that wait for him.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life. Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Hi C of God , I added in red some of the scriptures that shows Gods mercy endures Forever
I also ask you what is the afterlife?
when one physically dies perhaps is what you mean by afterlife
I for one have had a time sorting out scriptures that seem contradictory with each other
the one thing Jesus teaches is forgiveness of all manner of sins
but blaspheming the Holy Spirit
and it is NOT possible to do this unless you have been en''Light''ened
Hear we know God is forgiving .
I have to ask you what God would ask us to love and forgive and NOT be that way Himself ?
Psa 86:5
For thou, Lord, [art] good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.
Psa 130:4 But [there is]
forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared. Mar 3:29 But he that
shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men [and] brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 26:18
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Eph 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
What is this grace to you than ?
thanks for any reply
I do not say much these days anywhere .
:HeartThrob: Rose
All Enemies shall be subjected to Christ as Christ is subjected to the Father that God may be All in All. ( 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 )
We can Logically deduce that ...
God can't be All in All unless All have been Forgiven
God can't be All in All unless All have Repented
God can't be All in All unless All have accepted Christ
God can't be All in All unless All have learned Righteousness through Judgment
God can't be All in All unless All have been Cleansed of Sin
God can't be All in All unless Death has been Destroyed
God can't be All in All unless All have been Saved
There is no Logical Alternative unless you believe God will never be All in All. Simple as that.
Hey Mosh,
All in All. 1 cor 15:28
I believe Christ will continue to rule because His reign is eternal, but He will reign in His former, full and glorious place within the Trinity, subject to God in the way eternally designed for Him in full Trinitarian glory.
The meaning has nothing to do with "God can't be All in All" unless this. No evidence for it.
hope this helps. God bless.
Chosen
He must Reign ...UNTIL... contradicts that He will reign Forever. Christ Reigns for the Eons of the Eons and this harmonizes with the Fact that He Reigns ...UNTIL...
If Christ Reigns Forever and Ever then there could be no Reigning ...UNTIL... unless you believe that All Enemies shall never be Subjected to Him. Once All Enemies are Subjected to Christ He gives up the Reign to the Father.
Quote from: Moshood on August 16, 2009, 10:06:53 PM
Chosen
He must Reign ...UNTIL... contradicts that He will reign Forever. Christ Reigns for the Eons of the Eons and this harmonizes with the Fact that He Reigns ...UNTIL...
If Christ Reigns Forever and Ever then there could be no Reigning ...UNTIL...
:thumbsup: moshood GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE :winkgrin: :HeartThrob: Rose
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 05:04:52 PM
Paul,
The Gr. word for "confess" means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
No "exomologeo" means exhuberant thunderous praise and laudation -- it means to cry aloud in total adoration, such as when Jesus cried to the Father about Him having hidden these things from the wise and prudent and having revealed them to babes. Exact same Greek Word about all in heaven, in earth, and under the earth EXCLAIMING AND PROCLAIMING that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father, or in the words of Isaiah, that in the Lord alone they have righteousness and strength. Even a horrendously biased joke of a resource material such as W.E. Vine's would agree with my definition of "exomologeo," and in fact, it's got statements to this effect that caused me to look further on this one!
Check out the predominant word translated "wrath" and the word it's from in St. Paul and St. John -- Greek word orge -- same word we get the words orgy and orgasm from in English. It's literally the love of God excited to the boiling point of being ravishing. Even Strong's Concordance talks about an excitement of the mind that entails a reaching forth for and taking! God's judgment is His nonnegotiable stance regarding His will. All of history is a narrowing corridor at the end of which stands the Nazarene whose determined purpose is that none should escape the plan of God. There is none other name given among men, but the Name of Jesus, by which we MUST BE saved. God is too passionate to spend eternity without you and everyone you've ever known personally or by reputation. YOU CANNOT ESCAPE SALVATION!! Jesus said, when He was lifted up, that He would draw all men to Himself in John 12 -- all men. The Greek word there for "draw" literally means to DRAG.
When we were dead in trespasses is when He did His work, per Ephesians. Hebrews 2 says that Jesus set free those who "all of their lifetime" were held subject to bondage. If it was "all of their lifetime," then obviously quite a few had expired by then. Ezekiel 18:4 says that all souls are His. Your theology of gnosticism of not all being the Lord's presupposes all didn't come from Him, exist thru Him, and return to Him per Romans 11:32 and Romans 11:36 -- He's bound all to disobedience so that He'd have mercy UPON ALL. The Scriptures presuppose all nations, all beings, all creatures in heaven, earth, and under the earth emphatically being His!! Ever heard this UR song by the Newsboys??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6bBxO37LE4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6bBxO37LE4)
I want to hear the Scriptural refutation of this song "Everything Cries Holy":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtM9Ry4suDw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtM9Ry4suDw)
or of "Ancient of Days":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjSfS4Jv1WQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjSfS4Jv1WQ)
If you listen to much Christian music -- you, yourself, are listening to probably a lot of songs that presuppose the never failing, inescapable, love of God!! Ever heard the old song that a million folks have recorded, of course, but Sierra did an unforgettable version of "By My Spirit"?? That song by Sierra alone answers all of your questions. If you knew the Scriptures, they themselves would testify that this is a Blood bought world! 'Cause He really does have the whole world in His Hands;-)
Hey Martin,
1. confess -ed, eth, -ing
(ὁμολογέω (homologeō 3670) with ἐξ (ex) out of, prefixed) to speak out the same things with or as another, confess fully. Here, only middle to make acknowledgment.
Reference(s)
Mat 3:6, Mar 1:5, Act 19:18, Rom 14:11, Rom 15:9, Php 2:11, Jas 5:16
2. thank [verb] -ed
to speak out the same things as another; hence, to confess fully; make acknowledgements as for benefits, that is to give thanks, praise.
Reference(s)
Mat 11:25, Luk 10:21
Hey Choosen of God ,
I am not even worthy of a response ?
I am used to it actually .. :laughing7:
God bless :HeartThrob: Rose
:cloud9: Don't feel bad Rose.......I know the feeling :winkgrin: too........Blessings..... :girlheart:
Of course your worthy Rose.
you said to support #7 statement
Isa 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD [is] a God of judgment: blessed [are] all they that wait for him.
Since Judah would not wait on the Lord to deliver, He must wait to be gracious to the nation. This verse in context is about Judah.
you said:
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life. Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:32 teaches in context to the chapter though not the author of sin, God allowed man to pursue his sinful inclinations so that He could receive glory by demonstrating His grace and mercy to disobedient sinners.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life. 1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Paul was saved so that God could display to all His gracious and merciful patience with the most wretched sinners. Paul was living proof that God could save any sinner, no matter how great a one he might be. The account of Paul's conversion has been instrumental in tha salvation of many.
Quote from: Cardinal on August 16, 2009, 11:36:08 PM
:cloud9: Don't feel bad Rose.......I know the feeling :winkgrin: too........Blessings..... :girlheart:
Thanks sis :icon_flower:
, It is just so hard to write it all down .
I do believe part of the problem of communication with notes is , form
and God knows
form is not one of my strong points :mblush: Yikes!!
so I looked it up and yes , its me ... :sigh: live and learn he he :dontknow:
in the letter or in the Spirit ''How to speak to angels and men '' as Paul spoke most often :thumbsup:
Definition
Form is a term which refers to the recognisable shape of a text or a speech act.
This shape may be either
physical or abstract. Examples Spoken
Written
Conversation
Menu
Sermon
Letter
Announcement
Novel
Anecdote
Article
Joke
Poster
Use
The term 'form' is used in linguistics and in literary criticism as a technical term.
It is used when considering the shape, the construction, or the type of speech or writing.
An awareness of form can help to produce more efficient communication.
Keeping form in mind helps to clarify the type of end product required.
Form is an important part of
stylistic analysis - together with audience and function.
When studying a text we first try to identify its form. What type of writing is it? (Is it a letter, an advertisement, a timetable, or a novel?)
Then we might ask 'To whom is it addressed?' [audience] and 'What is it doing?' [function].
When thinking of linguistic or literary form, it's sometimes useful to think in terms of material shape. For instance, a table is usually a rectangular horizontal surface suppored by legs at each corner. That is the form of a table.
Similarly, a piece of writing which begins with a postal address and the words 'Dear Sir', then ends with 'Yours sincerely' - is likely to be a letter. This is the form taken by most letters.
It is possible for one form to contain another or several other forms. For example, a novel may contain a letter or a poem. A sermon may contain an anecdote.
Most poems have a form, but this varies a great deal. The sonnet is in part defined by its form which is the number of lines and the rhyme scheme.
Form in speech may be signalled by recognisable phrases, tone of voice, or choice of vocabulary.
For instance, 'The train now standing in platform ten...' would be recognised by most people as the start of a railway announcement.
Similarly, 'O Lord, we beseech thee to ...' would easily be identified as the start of a prayer.
If someone says 'My grandfather always told me that ...' we know that they are probably going to offer moral advice - a piece of homespun wisdom.
Beware! The term 'formal' has widened in its application to mean 'serious' — just as 'informal' has also extended its meaning to encompass notions of friendliness.
For instance, the greeting 'Hi there!' might be described by most people as informal. However, because it is part of a recognised verbal ritual, in linguistic terms [strictly speaking] it is 'formal' because it has a fixed shape.
The two terms, 'formal' and 'informal' therefore need to be used accurately when applied to linguistic or literary analysis.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 11:51:58 PM
Of course your worthy Rose.
you said to support #7 statement
Isa 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD [is] a God of judgment: blessed [are] all they that wait for him.
Since Judah would not wait on the Lord to deliver, He must wait to be gracious to the nation. This verse in context is about Judah.
you said:
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life. Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:32 teaches in context to the chapter though not the author of sin, God allowed man to pursue his sinful inclinations so that He could receive glory by demonstrating His grace and mercy to disobedient sinners.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life. 1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Paul was saved so that God could display to all His gracious and merciful patience with the most wretched sinners. Paul was living proof that God could save any sinner, no matter how great a one he might be. The account of Paul's conversion has been instrumental in tha salvation of many.
Thank you Chosen of God for the reply :thumbsup:
and About Judah
I know that until the time the Lord God sent Christ Jesus the Lion of the tribe of Judah to open the seals all would fail Ezek chapter 19
making all the Law and prophets True
I do get that Paul
at first being Saul was a good ,''letter of the Law killer'', to many innocent souls speaking of the saving grace of God though Jesus Christ ,
Paul confesses his ignorance as doing God a service
and Do realize that Saul /Paul meeting the Lord on the road to Damascus changed his course , being made than a vessel chosen by God to suffer many things for Christ Jesus names sake
and we see in the new testament , it is also true too ...
but Dear Chosen , not a one of us could ever change our course without the Good Lord intervening
Do you think it is fair that some are this fortunate and others are just cast off as nothing ?
I do believe God has a plan and many will never understand in this life why the evil ones prevail and the innocent ones are consumed in suffering
I do believe we have to wonder what God we are serving ?
Is it one whom are carnal minds have created or is it the True God in whom we trust all things will work out for the good of all His glorious creation
To be challenged by my own thoughts and understanding only makes me know I have much to learn concerning the Will of God that none should perish , His longsuffering and patience towards us all , though all times and ways
His mercy endures forever , I cling to that promise for all concerned :HeartThrob: Rose
Chosen,
You have said on 2 occasions:
This post is to understand your theology, not mine.
Do you understand what you are saying here? Every single time you respond by way of disagreement, you are NOT trying to understand someone else's theology, but are trying to put forth yours.
Ron
Hey Greg,
Learning from scripture by way of sound exegesis. When someone takes a scripture out of context I will refute it.
Quote from: martincisneros on August 16, 2009, 10:52:49 PM
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 05:04:52 PM
Paul,
The Gr. word for "confess" means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
No "exomologeo" means exhuberant thunderous praise and laudation -- it means to cry aloud in total adoration, such as when Jesus cried to the Father about Him having hidden these things from the wise and prudent and having revealed them to babes. Exact same Greek Word about all in heaven, in earth, and under the earth EXCLAIMING AND PROCLAIMING that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father, or in the words of Isaiah, that in the Lord alone they have righteousness and strength. Even a horrendously biased joke of a resource material such as W.E. Vine's would agree with my definition of "exomologeo," and in fact, it's got statements to this effect that caused me to look further on this one!
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1454.0
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 01:03:06 AM
Hey Greg,
Learning from scripture by way of sound exegesis. When someone takes a scripture out of context I will refute it.
And you do not realize that every single attempt at quoting a scripture will be out of context to you? You do realize that don't you?
Greg,
I have discernment. I know proper exegesis. These qualities unfortunately are not possessed by everyone interpreting the word of God. No offense. I'm not always right and I'm always learning.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 01:34:03 AM
Greg,
I have discernment. I know proper exegesis. These qualities unfortunately are not possessed by everyone interpreting the word of God. No offense. I'm not always right and I'm always learning.
The strongest word for all in the Sacred Secrets is ta pavnte: it literally means the all.
#1 -Rom. 11:36"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends."
Ta pavnte= the all things.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming. From Him ta pavnte comes, through Him ta pavnte exists, and in Him ta pavnte ends.
#2. -Eph. 1:- 9-11"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."
The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
#3 -Col. 1:20"God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood...to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in heaven. And you..."
The all things (the ta pavnte) in the heavens, the all things (the ta pavnte) in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. God has purposed to reconcile the universe (the ta pavnte) to Himself. The ta pavnte/ the all, encompasses the ta pavnte on the earth and the ta pavnte in the heavens. The ta pavnte= the all, the whole enchilada.
Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.
Hey Greg, I have already asked Chosen if he wants sound Scriptural doctrines or if he wants only what he believes is sound Scriptural doctrine but I think he is so busy trying to convert us to his way of thinking that he hasn't answered yet.
cp
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AM
Hey everyone,
I know that all universalist do not agree on all the statements below, I just ask you to pick out the questions that pertain to your thinking or theology and simply give scripture references for your answers. If you refuse to answer the statements, you are telling me that you believe in a theology that does not require you to give scripture references and you simply put your faith in something that is not biblical. How can I learn your theology without you giving direct scripture evidence of the statements below? I'm excited for you to defend and teach me from scripture the following statements below.
PLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life. Reconciliation of ALL THINGS is already done... there is NO AFTERLIFE
2) The wicked repenting in the after life. There is no AFTER LIFE, book, chapter & verse which notes AFTERLIFE
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life. no such thing as "ACCEPTING JESUS" -- please note book, chapter & verse
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life. There is no such thing as AFTERLIFE, unScriptural term
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life. that is not a belief I have. CHRIST took AWAY the SIN of the WORLD, don't you believe Scripture? There is no need for something which is TAKEN AWAY to be dealt with
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked). this is the lake of Fire, enjoy
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire. as I said, this is the lake of Fire, enjoy!
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three. prove satan is a being, and there IS NO "AFTERLIFE"
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever. prove ANY "angel" has fallen (other then men)
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life. what "you see" is seen from blind eyes
PLEASE give book, chapter and verse to ESTABLISH these fallacies... You have brought them up, the burden of "proof" is on YOU.
Where are YOUR "biblical"
refutations, CoG? There is none given because you have none, and are admitting by the NON POSTING (ABSENCE) of them, that your beliefs are not Scripturally based... and UNSUBSTANCIATED
You only show
nothing by posting such "statements"... What you need to do, is to post YOUR beliefs, and then SUPPORT them Scripturally...
You
FAIL to do so, herein... so your grade (so far) for this topic is:
FI'll answer this post more in DETAIL, tomorrow... can't wait, canya! :laughing7:
...willieH :laughing7:
Willie,
By viewing your answers, no offense, your doctrines are a complete train wreck. This thread is for you to prove UR biblically and not with human reason. Your views are quite different from your UR colleagues.
Please don't speak for others regarding their views of WillieH.
How do you know what I think?
Hey Beloved Servant,
Just stating the truth. Seth, Paul, and others believe in a temporary aionios hell.
Wait, are you saying that Willie's views are different than Seth's and Paul's or the same?
Willie answered,
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life. that is not a belief I have. CHRIST took AWAY the SIN of the WORLD, don't you believe Scripture? There is no need for something which is TAKEN AWAY to be dealt with
To my knowledge both Seth and Paul believe this while Willie says he does not. I may be wrong.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 17, 2009, 05:03:28 PM
Wait, are you saying that Willie's views are different than Seth's and Paul's or the same?
Hey BeServ,
I think cogs questions are good for others that will come upon these threads so in that way cog is doing Gods service.
cogs evasive and devisive techniques are for one purpose only IMO and that is to generate frustration and division. Also IMO cog wants to saturate this forum with total nonsense and confusion.
I cannot, from all I've read, see that cog is operating with the Spirit of God in any manner.
Just my opinion.
cp
CP,
The irony of it all is that he answered his own question to this thread in his last post:
"CHRIST took AWAY the SIN of the WORLD."
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 04:28:22 PM
Willie,
By viewing your answers, no offense, your doctrines are a complete train wreck. This thread is for you to prove UR biblically and not with human reason. Your views are quite different from your UR colleagues.
More worthless UNSUBSTANCIATED words without Scriptural refutation.
I SHALL address YOUR proposals in the OP... Let's see which of us ends up in a "train wreck" :bigGrin:
As far as my views, you have yet to KNOW them... They are very DETAILED and are SCRIPTURALLY based, :nod: ...unlike your SCRIPTURE
LESS presentations... :pitiful:
...willieH :happy3:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 10:00:49 PM
Hey Mosh,
All in All. 1 cor 15:28
I believe Christ will continue to rule because His reign is eternal, but He will reign in His former, full and glorious place within the Trinity, subject to God in the way eternally designed for Him in full Trinitarian glory.
More NON Scriptural blab...
Book, chapter and verse where
(1) this
"trinity" is mentioned,
OR (2) this purported and falsely asserted --
"trinitarian glory"...
...willieH :icon_king:
Willie,
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
willieH: Howdee "CoG37" -- :hithere:
Before I begin, I am NOT a "
universalist"... that is a label which many ORTHODOX Babylonians like to attach to those who believe that God shall SAVE ALL MEN... and like the label "
Christian"... I abstain from its attachment to me so that I might separate myself TOTALLY from ORTHODOX thinking... :happygrin:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AM
Hey everyone,
I know that all universalist do not agree on all the statements below, I just ask you to pick out the questions that pertain to your thinking or theology and simply give scripture references for your answers. If you refuse to answer the statements, you are telling me that you believe in a theology that does not require you to give scripture references and you simply put your faith in something that is not biblical.
Listen to who is talking... You have already been called out on NON-BIBLICAL terminologies and LACK of SCRIPTURAL presentations, ...and have YET to prove those false assertions with SCRIPTURE, so don't try laying more of your
false suppositions upon us even before any replies have even been given. We are not REQUIRED to answer ANY of your "statements"... and deciding to
"shine them on" (love that 60's slang), is our own individual
prerogative.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AMHow can I learn your theology without you giving direct scripture evidence of the statements below? I'm excited for you to defend and teach me from scripture the following statements below.
The
TRUTH does
NOT need to be defended. And the question really IS, ...are you GENUINELY interested in "
LEARNING"? For you CERTAINLY cannot be "
TAUGHT" unless, you have a GENUINE wish to "
LEARN". :dontknow:
That said, are you really being honest in your opening here
CoG37? That you wish to be
TAUGHT and to
LEARN? :dontknow:
Or is your motive of another sort? :dontknow: You are not playing with UNLEARNED children here, as you shall find out! :thumbdown:
I will take your "statements" one at a time and SCRIPTURALLY show that they are FALSE in their presentation
and ASSUMPTION... here goes:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AMPLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
FIRST -- You begin with an assumption based upon a premise which is UNBIBLICAL... the idea of "
afterlife" is NOT found in Scripture. Also... The mission of
CHRIST was outlined in the beginning of John, which notes:
John 1:29 --
behold the LAMB of God which TAKETH AWAY, the SIN of the ...WORLD...To begin with, something which is "TAKEN AWAY", is no longer present. If the SIN of the WORLD is "taken away" (which is WHAT is
STATED in this verse)... then it is no longer an ISSUE which must be dealt with... the FORGIVENESS for SIN, is found in it being "TAKEN AWAY"... This is the foundation upon which GRACE is established, and is ELEMENTARY in the understandings of the SPIRITUAL LOVE of
CHRIST which
PASSES KNOWLEDGE --
Eph 3:19 -- ORTHODOX believers such as yourself, are yet stuck in the CANALITY of the LAW which notes the CONDEMNING of an EYE for an EYE...
SECOND -- you seem to think yourself and "your sins" as other than "wicked", and make the ASSUMPTION that God shall deal with the SINS of others, in a DIFFERENT manner than you percieve He deals with YOURS... This in itself is an assumption based upon CONVENIENCE... assuming that YOU, a SINNER shall be given the GRACE of FORGIVENESS for NO REASON, and that others shall recieve UNENDING TORMENT for theirs... how CONVENIENTLY nice for you -- it sux to be them - eh? :thumbdown:
This THOUGHTLESS THINKING, is also based upon the PURPOSELESS proposition that GOD would FOREVER TORMENT MOST of the
WORLD He ...
SO LOVED --
John 3:16 -- and that He was willing to sacrifice His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son to redeem, thereby NEGATING MOST of that sacrifice, rendering it INERT... and in its place, MERCILESS TORTURE is instituted which does NOT measure up with LOVE, GRACE, LOGIC
or the SCRIPTURAL PURPOSE of
YHVH God, as noted in the Holy
WORD...
CHRIST totally erased the THOUGHTLESS SELFISHNESS of CARNAL condemnations, within the following orations:
John 8:1-11 and this one:
Matt 5:43-48The "PHARISEEICAL order" persists in apostate "Christianity", which has distorted the TRUTH, and presents its FABLES to the
WORLD (God SO LOVED) instead of the
GOSPEL of GRACE and
PEACE --
Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20 -- insisting on such fallacies as "trinity, hell, rapture, fallen angels, vengence, fear, separations, unmerciful graceless vindications," the list is literally endless...
"PHARISEEICAL Christianity" persists in her Babylonian carnality, which willingly IGNORES the call to COME
OUT of it --
Rev 18:4All the while, insisting on
LAW which
CHRIST fulfilled for ALL, becoming a RANSOM for
ALL --
1 Tim 2:6 -- tasting DEATH for
EVERY MAN --
Heb 2:9 -- and which reconciled
ALL which are found in Transgression here:
Col 1:20 and ...here:
Rom 5:18-19END of answer to [
false and
groundless] "statement" #1
Seeya in my reply to [
false and
groundless] "statement" #2 -- :laughing7:
...willieH :icon_king:
One more point that should be mentioned. The wrath of God and his justice are not shown by tormenting people forever. The wrath and his justice and mercy and love, and whatever other attribute you can think of, is all completed IN THE SON, and in him alone.
Willie,
Where are the scriptures that support the sins of the wicked being forgiven after they die? :dontknow:
All you have done is bad mouthed the body of Christ and said sin is taken away and no longer present quoting John 1:29. To qualify for your sins to be taken away..you must repent and Believe. If a person dies in their sins they have not believed in Jesus. So again, how and where are the sins of the wicked forgiven after they die.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AMPLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
As I have already noted, your reference to "
AFTERLIFE" is irrelevant when discussing SCRIPTURE, as it is NOT mentioned IN IT, nor is it a topic of "understanding", found within its
WORDS...
What it IS, is a tool which is employed by MISLED teachers, to MISLEAD...
And is further employed to misrepresent the
GOSPEL, by proposing FEAR, TORMENT and UNGODLY presentations which are NOT a part of
LOVE --
1 John 4:18 -- nor of the
GOSPEL which is STRICTLY GOOD NEWS... Neither of the TWO WORDS translated
GOSPEL in the NT -- Euaggelizo/Euaggelion -- expresses NEGATIVITY, on the CONTRARY... both emphasize GLAD TIDINGS! (Look'em up CoG37 --
LEARN!)
But what
CAN be discussed is
REPENTENCE... and WHO might be in NEED of it...
FIRST -- ALL men are called to REPENT --
Acts 17:30 -- However, REPENTENCE only comes from the LEADING and GOODNESS of GOD --
Rom 2:4... so one is fooling themselves if they think that REPENTENCE is an idea which is born of themselves...
SECOND -- we must next recognize WHEN "repentence" can be --
(1) realized and manifest [which necessitates the
WORD] which can only be INSTITUTED by GOD's decision (who is NO respecter of persons) to "drag" on TO the
WORD --
John 6:44 -- and,
(2) that it takes
FAITH to exercise it, which FAITH is AUTHORED and COMPLETED, ...only by
CHRIST [the
WORD] --
Heb 12:2 --who is
NO RESPECTER of PERSONS --
Acts 10:34 - Rom 2:11 (and 7 other Scriptural references which have already been noted) and,
(3) that it is without QUESTION accomplised by GOD ALONE for HE is the one who ADDS to HIS CH
URCH according to HIS P
URPOSE --
Acts 2:47 -- and this is
NOT in any way accomplished by SINFUL men, and their carnal, egotistic and self-centered decisions... and,
(4) that it CAN and
WILL occur in MEN until the conclusion of the LAST DAY, in which JUDGMENT and RESURRECTION takes place --
John 6:44 -- John 12:48 -- John 11:24 -- and,
(5) that within
REPENTENCE is the CONFESSION of
CHRIST which
ALL shall do --
Phil 2:10-11 and,
(6) that the CONFESSION of
CHRIST as
LORD, will
SAVE --
Rom 10:13 -- and,
(7) that the CONFESSION of
CHRIST can only be done
BY the Holy SPIRIT of GOD --
1 Cor 12:3 and,
(8) that there is NO Scriptural evidence that notes this CONFESSION and REPENTENCE must be done within or during the PHYSICAL LIFESPAN on earth ONLY, ...and furthermore that
ALL ISRAEL, which HAS NOT made this CONFESSION unto Salvation are stated to be SAVED --
Rom 11:26Enough on REPENTENCE... If you don't get it, ...you don't get it. :dontknow:
...willieH :happygrin:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
Willie,
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
"GOD the SON"?
Please note BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE that notes "GOD the SON"
Also, please note the BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE that notes there is a "trinity"
As well as BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE that notes there are 3 "persons" which act as GOD...
...willieH :happy3:
Willie,
Where are the scriptures that support the sins of the wicked being forgiven after they die?
All you have done is bad mouthed the body of Christ and said sin is taken away and no longer present quoting John 1:29. To qualify for your sins to be taken away..you must repent and Believe. If a person dies in their sins they have not believed in Jesus. So again, how and where are the sins of the wicked forgiven after they die.
Cog,
It seems you have too many irons in the fire and can not keep up with everyone that has asked you questions.
Poor planning that you should keep in mind for the next Web site you plan to visit.
Sin has been taken away, finished. Therefore there is no such thing as the wicked having sins forgiven at any time in the future. That took place on the cross. Everyone, as God directs, will believe and come to see what has already taken place for them on that cross. That is the reason we are told by Paul that we "see no one after the flesh, not even Jesus." Our determination is to see everyone through the eyes of the cross and the new creation, who they are now, not who they used to be.
Ron
Greg, You must repent and believe in Jesus as Lord to have your sins taken away in this lifetime or other wise you die in your sins. Jesus said:
John 8:24 " Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"
Yes, and he spoke that before the Cross. There are many things spoken of before the cross that the cross accomplished. Before the cross, we had to "keep the commandments" in order to inherit eternal life. No longer the case. Before the cross, we had to forgive those who sin against us in order to be forgiven by God. No longer the case. He was speaking to those under the law and thus, while that law was still in effect, he spoke in such a way as to bring them to the end of themselves, realizing that they could not do the things he said. He did it on the cross.
Ron
Willie,
you said:
To begin with, something which is "TAKEN AWAY", is no longer present. If the SIN of the WORLD is "taken away" (which is WHAT is STATED in this verse)... then it is no longer an ISSUE which must be dealt with... the FORGIVENESS for SIN, is found in it being "TAKEN AWAY"...
Wrong. Dead Wrong.
You must repent and believe in Jesus as Lord to have your sins taken away in this lifetime or other wise you die in your sins. Jesus said:
John 8:24 " Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"
You want to try again? Where are the scriptures that support the sins of the wicked being forgiven after they die?
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 10:59:35 PM
Greg, You must repent and believe in Jesus as Lord to have your sins taken away in this lifetime or other wise you die in your sins. Jesus said:
John 8:24 " Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"
This statement "to have your sins taken away in this lifetime or other wise you die in your sins" cannot be applied to the above scripture. Jesus does not say "in this lifetime." He just says "you will die in your sin." You ASSUME that means mortal death. Do you remember Christ's words: Let the dead bury the dead.
Do you realize that people are dead in sin even while they are still conscious and animated? This is just more example of you PLACING meaning on scriptures which are not stated, without giving scriptural witness to back up your interpretation.
I interpret John 8:24 by understanding "let the dead bury the dead" (Christ's words) showing that dying in sin has nothing to do with dying mortally. Christ's words for John 8:24 me leaving me no reason to assume what is not stated. Anytime someone is a slave to sin they ARE dying in sin, having nothing to do with dying mortally and that being their only "chance" for redemption. To wit, Jesus did not say that they would not eventually be delivered from sin, only that they would be dying in sin. Everyone is dying in sin until being delivered.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 10:30:59 PM
Willie,
Where are the scriptures that support the sins of the wicked being forgiven after they die? :dontknow:
Let's face it CoG37... you are not here to LEARN or to be TAUGHT... you envision yourself a "teacher" rather than a "student"...
If you would hold your tongue a taste, and read the comments made on statement #2... which more than notes that the SINS of the "WICKED" -- which "wicked", btw also INCLUDES
YOU... are ALL taken AWAY...
QuoteAll you have done is bad mouthed the body of Christ and said sin is taken away and no longer present quoting John 1:29.
CoG37... I haven't "bad mouthed" anyone... GOD has called to you to COME OUT of BABYLON, and YOU of your own volition, "CHOOSE" to remain in it... If in calling BABYLON for what it is, is "bad mouthing" as you see it, than so be it...
CHRIST said that upon His return -- "shall the Son of Man find FAITH on the earth" --
Luke 18:8 --
Presently there are over
2.5 BILLION people claiming they have the FAITH of
CHRIST... does that appear to YOU, to be a literally INVISIBLE number, CoG37? :mshock:
CHRIST will see these, but FAITH which HE is looking to find, will NOT be present... for
LOVE of the T
RUTH, is the FAITH He seeks, not the DELUSION of lies which shall befall MOST who profess Him... Are you even reading your Bible at all?
THEY, as yourself, "choose" to IGNORE the presentation and call of the T
RUTH... and thereby shall find SHAME for that choice --
Rev 3:18 -- 1 Thess 2:10-11 -- "choosing" to believe in fallacy...
CHRIST said (and YOU ignore):
Matt 7:22-23 --
MANY will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not PROPHESIED in Thy name, and in Thy name cast out many devils, and in Thy name done many WONDERFUL works... and then will I PROFESS unto THEM -- I never KNEW YOU, ...depart from Me, ye that WORK INIQUITY.These are
BELIEVERS CoG37! Open your eyes! They call Him "LORD", and this cannot be done except by the Holy Spirit... :dontknow:
Yeah...
CHRIST will "see these" all right, ...and then proceed to, "BAD MOUTH" them... (as you put it)
Stick with those 2.5 BILLION "bad mouthed" Christians
CoG37, see what happens... :dontknow: See if He "bad mouths" you too... :sigh:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 10:30:59 PMTo qualify for your sins to be taken away..you must repent and Believe.
I have already addressed this, read it. :nod:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 10:30:59 PMIf a person dies in their sins they have not believed in Jesus. So again, how and where are the sins of the wicked forgiven after they die.
You think in linear, carnal and physical terms... until you are willing to abandon BABYLON your questions will continue to go unanswered, for in this carnality, ...you cannot
see or
hear the answer when it is presented to you...
The final Judgment of MEN is COMPLETED on the LAST
DAY --
John 12:48 -- as well as RESURRECTION.
In this moment of JUDGMENT (which is NOT a "bad" thing -
Isaiah 26:9) they will
LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS, fall to the knee, and CONFESS
CHRIST...
Let him that hath EARS, ...hear. Do you have EARS, CoG37? :dunno:
Probably not... :sigh:
...willieH :cloud9:
Ron,
Before or after the cross does not matter( Rev 13:8). Jesus says you must believe in Me or you will die in your sins.
Ok, then how do you understand Jesus' taking away the sin of the world? Is it a conditional taking away, a potential one, based on repentance? Is that how you understand it? When scripture says he came to put an end to sin, I think I know what you will say to that, but what is it you understand that to mean?
Ron
Seth,
you said:
I interpret John 8:24 by understanding "let the dead bury the dead" (Christ's words) showing that dying in sin has nothing to do with dying mortally. Christ's words for John 8:24 me leaving me no reason to assume what is not stated. Anytime someone is a slave to sin they ARE dying in sin, having nothing to do with dying mortally and that being their only "chance" for redemption. To wit, Jesus did not say that they would not eventually be delivered from sin, only that they would be dying in sin. Everyone is dying in sin until being delivered.
I disagree Seth with your interpretation. Jesus emphasized the "unless you believe" fatal, unforgivable and eternal sin if failure to believe in Him as Messiah and Son of God. Jesus is crystal clear unless you believe you will die in your sins.If you die in your sins..you have not believed.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 11:04:44 PM
Willie,
you said:
To begin with, something which is "TAKEN AWAY", is no longer present. If the SIN of the WORLD is "taken away" (which is WHAT is STATED in this verse)... then it is no longer an ISSUE which must be dealt with... the FORGIVENESS for SIN, is found in it being "TAKEN AWAY"...
Wrong. Dead Wrong.
:laugh: :LH: :laughhand:
"WRONG" according to
what? YOU? Please! :rolleye:
The only
way you or anyone can determine another WRONG" is by comparing their own VISION of the
WORD to their opponents observation... Such practice only reveals you have much growing to do concerning Spiritual matters... :JCThink:
NO one is "WRONG", nor are they "RIGHT"... we are either VEILED or REVEALED, and it is GOD's choice as to which areas we shall gain T
RUTHFUL vision...
You propose me to be "wrong" by using you own pathetic vision as the measure of "right" :pointlaugh: Please, spare me! :laughing7:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 11:04:44 PMYou must repent and believe in Jesus as Lord to have your sins taken away in this lifetime or other wise you die in your sins. Jesus said:
John 8:24 " Therefore, I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins"
You want to try again? Where are the scriptures that support the sins of the wicked being forgiven after they die?
JESUS said they would die in their SINS, ...He did not SAY they would not be SAVED! That, dear friend is YOUR ASSUMPTION...
The HOLY SPIRIT of
YHVH inspired PAUL to write:
1 Cor 3:11-15 --
SAVED so as
BY FIRE...
If
you don't get it, ...well, ...
you don't get it,
CoG37! :dontknow:
Like I said -- repetitions are not going to avail anything, ...you do not have
EARS to hear, so repeating myself won't enable understanding forya... :mpardon:
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 11:18:26 PM
I disagree Seth with your interpretation. Jesus emphasized the fatal "unless you believe" unforgivable and eternal sin if failure to believe in Him as Messiah and Son of God. Jesus is crystal clear unless you believe you will die in your sins.If you die in your sins..you have not believed.
If anything He emphasized the fatal aspect of sin even
while being mortally alive. I don't mind that you disagree with the interpretation I have given, but it is sound exegesis based on the Biblical explanation of what being dead in sin means and how dying in sin does not necessitate mortal death.
You are probably arguing against something I do not believe. To be free from death in sin, you must believe because the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is what delivers us from death in sin.
None of this gives me reason to think that John 8:24 teaches that those he was speaking to would not eventually be delivered. It simply says "You will die in your sin." Period. That's it. Anything beyond that without scriptural proof is your own assumption: that John 8:24 teaches that dying in sin equates to a last chance scenario. Sorry, it doesn't state that.
It only reinforces the current death-state of those who are slaves to sin. Attempting to use that scripture as a proof text for limited salvation is faulty.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 10:43:49 PM
Willie,
Where are the scriptures that support the sins of the wicked being forgiven after they die?
There aren't any, but not for the reasons you assume.
The problem of sin was dealt with, once for all, by God through Christ at the cross. Let's go a step further: the Lamb was "slain before the foundation of the world", so God had already put in place the final solution to the problem of sin. However, we don't see it yet, as we still see the here and now (because we are bound by time and space), but God sees the complete picture (because He isn't bound by time and space).
Your sin wasn't forgiven when you "made a decision" to follow Christ; it was taken care of before the world was ever formed.
J,
agreed, Christ's death was timeless (Rev13:8) but the elect need to come to repentance and faith in Jesus for it to be applied. (Galatians 4-7)
willieH: Hey
CoG37 -- :icon_flower:
Your "statements" contain MORE FALLACY as they go along -- eh?
AFTERLIFE? ACCEPTING CHRIST? Neither of these are IN the SCRIPTURES...
As if GOD has to be "accepted" by SINFUL humanity! :rolleye:
Come on, admit it, ...you don't have a Bible, doya? :winkgrin: (just kidn'ya) :friendstu:
Now to address your 3rd UNSCRIPTURAL "statement":
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AMPLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
Now here's a beaut! :laughing7: You seem embedded in the "
afterlife" :laughing7: Have you found a verse that mentions this mythical entity? :happygrin:
ALL humans are "
WICKED"
CoG37 -- including (hate to be the one to tellya) ...
YOU... anything about
YOU that might be observed as "RIGHTEOUS", is
CHRIST in you, ...NOT
YOU!
All you and I amount to (and everyone else)... is DESPARATELY
WICKED hearts --
Jer 17:9FIRST -- please name BOOK, CHAPTER and VERSE which
says that
ANYONE must "ACCEPT
CHRIST"
SECOND -- It is not up to US to "accept" Him, we cannot even DO THIS. It is up to HIM (the Shepherd) to
SEEK and to SAVE the SHEEP --
Luke 19:10 -- the "SHEEP" don't SAVE themselves,
CoG37! They are of the dumbest creatures in existence!
Did YOU "save" yourself? Do you really think
YOU found
CHRIST? :laughing7: As you "see it" He was lost and
YOU "found" Him - eh? :laughing7:
Hey... I spent my time in BABYLON... (around 24yrs) and am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO happy to be OUT of it (9+ years)...
So though I might poke fun at you a bit here & there, I DO understand the chains that bind and imprison you. :pitiful:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 11:36:20 PM
J,
agreed, Christ's death was timeless (Rev13:8) but the elect need to come to repentance and faith in Jesus for it to be applied. (Galatians 4-7)
And Galatians 4:7 has exactly what to do with the point you are trying to make?
The cross was sufficient for all mankind. When we "repent" (literally, "change our thinking"), it is because we have had Christ revealed
in us (not
to us) by the Spirit, and we know that "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord", and this it will happen in a fashion that will bring glory to God.
This isn't about your decision, your choice, or your ability to live circumspectly. It's about what He did. The sooner you see that, the easier it will be to believe that God is the savior of ALL mankind.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AMPLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
More "AFTERLIFE" -- :laughing7: so far 4 "statements" and ALL of them contain the
UNSCRIPTURAL connotation "AFTERLIFE"... Get a clue! There is NO "AFTERLIFE"...
It amazes me that one such as yourself, considers himself "read" on the Scriptures, and continually separates Himself from "the WICKED", as if YOU are "righteous"! (See
Matt 7:22-23 for folks which claim themselves as DOERS of RIGHTEOUSNESS... you have been warned!)
As well as REPEAT over and over, UN-Scriptural terminology, ...then has the audacity to REQUIRE of us SCRIPTURE to verify our beliefs... go figure! :wacko2:
If you have SINNED,
CoG37, ...then YOU are WICKED... YOUR SIN put
CHRIST to death... YOUR EVIL WORKS were the hammer & nails... YOU are not separate from any of the rest of the Human race in this respect. YOU are guilty as charged... YOU put Him to death, get used to it! Stop trying to delegate YOUR WICKEDNESS to others which have yet to see their SAVIOR... THAT is what is WICKED!
The INTENT of the natural heart is SIN... NONE seek after GOD, ...NO ...NOT ...ONE! --
Rom 3:10-12 -- Psalms 14:1-3 -- Including
YOU!
No one "avoids JUDGMENT" bro! JUDGMENT -- BEGINS -- At the house of GOD --
1 Pet 4:17 --
The BOOKS" are open... one at a time, all life long...
JESUS said:
John 12:31 --
The JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD, is NOW... -- not tomorrow or a week from tuesday! :dontknow:
When
JESUS spoke, NONE of His
WORDS were idle! He MEANT what He SAID! If He said the JUDGMENT is NOW, then the JUDGMENT is
NOW! See --
Rev 20:12 -- OUR LIVES are the BOOKS that are OPENED...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 16, 2009, 07:27:36 AMPLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
Well one thing can be said forya... you are CONSISTENT in your UNSCRIPTURAL notations! :laughing7:
No one is having SIN "conditioned" out of them. Did you have this done? If GOD is NO RESPECTER of PERSONS (which He IS)... Then He shall "process" us ALL in the same manner.
The ELECT are those who are chosen to be involved in the MISSION and P
URPOSE of
YHVH...
CHRIST paid for SIN... and no amount of torment or "penance" can remove even ONE SIN... Only His BLOOD and redeeming sacrifice, can remove it from our lives...
Maybe its time to ask you a question... What is the P
URPOSE of
YHVH? Why are we going through all of this CoG37? Do you have the slightest idea?
No "conditioning" is done either in the ones CALLED to know
CHRIST in this life, or in the RESURRECTION...
CHRIST removed SIN --
John 1:29 -- but it takes the heart of
FAITH to
believe what
IS WRITTEN...
It takes the heart of DECEIT to say SIN remains (and therefore needs "conditioning")... telling the WORLD (God SO LOVED) a
LIE... in place of the T
RUTH that
CHRIST -- TOOK
AWAY -- the
SIN of the
WORLD...
Btw...
John 1:29 ...
DOES NOT SAY -- "behold the lamb of God that taketh away the SIN of the "
ELECT" -- and it ...
DOES NOT SAY -- "behold the lamb of God that taketh away the SIN of
SOME"
but it
DOES SAY:
John 1:29 --
behold the Lamb of God that TAKETH AWAY the SIN of the ...WORLD!And the Apostle John repeated this here:
1 John 2:2 --
and He is the propitiation for OUR SINS, and NOT for OURS ONLY, ...but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD...The stubborness of your RELIGION will not submit to the T
RUTH, and therefore does not LOVE the T
RUTH... and shall suffer the
SHAME ...of that sorrowful position, when time is fulfilled.
Stick with the 2.5 BILLION others that will join you in that (learning the "HARD WAY") experience,
CoG37... :sigh:
Let me REPEAT my question to you (not that you will answer it - or even HAVE an answer)
Maybe its time to ask you a question...
What is the P
URPOSE of
YHVH? Why are we going through all of this
CoG37? Do you have the slightest idea?
.
..willieH :HeartThrob:
Hey Willie H:
wow.
Hey Willie,
Blood servant I Don't know what you Wow is about.
yousaid:
The ELECT are those who are chosen to be involved in the MISSION and PURPOSE of YHVH...
Where in the bible does it say this?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 17, 2009, 10:48:58 PM
Cog,
It seems you have too many irons in the fire and can not keep up with everyone that has asked you questions.
Poor planning that you should keep in mind for the next Web site you plan to visit.
:cloud9: :laughing7: Blessings....
Cog, are you addressing Willie and myself in the same post?
If you're calling me Blood Servant, I'll give that another, wow!
I like that, a lot.
For the precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ is limitless.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 01:01:38 AM
Hey Willie,
Blood servant I Don't know what you Wow is about.
yousaid:
The ELECT are those who are chosen to be involved in the MISSION and PURPOSE of YHVH...
Where in the bible does it say this?
Acts 15:
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Lots of other passages on this. Genuinely surprised you don't know them already!
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 01:01:38 AM
Hey Willie,
Blood servant I Don't know what you Wow is about.
yousaid:
The ELECT are those who are chosen to be involved in the MISSION and PURPOSE of YHVH...
Where in the bible does it say this?
Right here.
Eph 3:10 to the intent that now through the assembly the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places.
Now you are wondering perhaps, it says nothing about the elect, nor are the words mission or purpose there. Ah my brother, but it is. Think about it.
Willie,
JESUS said they would die in their SINS, ...He did not SAY they would not be SAVED! That, dear friend is YOUR ASSUMPTION...
COG: Ok, show me in the bible where someone dies in their sins and their sins are forgiven. :dontknow:
you said:
The HOLY SPIRIT of YHVH inspired PAUL to write
1 Cor 3:11-15 -- SAVED so as BY FIRE...
If you don't get it, ...well, ...you don't get it, CoG37!
Like I said -- repetitions are not going to avail anything, ...you do not have EARS to hear, so repeating myself won't enable understanding forya... Pardon
COG: The believers works are judged. The Quality of the materials (Gold, silver, precious stones ) represent dedicated , spiritual service to build the church. ( wood, hay, stubble) represent inferior materials implying shallow activity with no eternal value. The fire represent God's discerning judgment. Christ has paid the price so their is no judgment of sin. No matter how worthless one's works are, no believer will forfeit salvation.
:cloud9: Do you actually know what salvation is CoG? What is it to you, just a fire escape plan? Blessings....
Hey Greg,
Eph 3:10 teaches God, through the church manifests His glory to all angels both holy and unholy. Although they have no desire or capacity to praise God, even fallen angels see the glory of God in the salvation and preservation of the church.
willieH: Hi CoG37 -- :happy3:
Even though you don't deserve an answer (because you have yet to answer questions of YOU in my posts), I will rise above and show you, ...areya ready?
Or is your "RELIGION" turned up so high so you can't hear anyone or anything, but yourself? :thinking: :shakepoint:
We'll see... :dontknow:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 01:01:38 AM
Hey Willie,
yousaid:
The ELECT are those who are chosen to be involved in the MISSION and PURPOSE of YHVH...
Where in the bible does it say this?
Rom 9:11-12 --
For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD according to ...ELECTION... might stand, NOT of works, but OF HIM that CALLETH -- It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER...Jacob and Esau did not have a CHOICE concerning their lives... and neither do you.
GOD's ELECTION is about
HIS PURPOSE, and HE sets those according to HIS P
URPOSE to DO as HE
CALLS them to do... that HIS PURPOSE and MISSION be completed according to HIS ELECTION, not the will and choices of men...
Here is a 2nd witness of this:
Eph 2:10 --
for we are HIS WORKMANSHIP created IN CHRIST JESUS unto GOOD WORKS, ...which GOD HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that WE SHOULD WALK IN THEMANYTHING that GOD
ORDAINS, cannot occur otherwise. Which means that these which are
CREATED to be IN
CHRIST JESUS, and UNTO GOOD WORKS, must WALK in those GOOD WORKS...
Now its
YOUR TURN to answer a few questions "
Mr. [CoG37] Theologian"... :dontknow:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
What's a fallen angel?
willieH: Hi sister R... :cloud9:
You crack me up! ~~ :laugh: :laughhand:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 18, 2009, 01:23:44 AM
:cloud9: Do you actually know what salvation is CoG? What is it to you, just a fire escape plan? Blessings....
:laughing7:
Loveya sis...
...willieH :cloud9:
Willie,
Rom 9:11-12 -- For being NOT YET BORN, neither having done GOOD or EVIL, that the PURPOSE of GOD according to ...ELECTION... might stand, NOT of works, but OF HIM that CALLETH -- It was said unto her, THE ELDER SHALL SERVE THE YOUNGER...
Jacob and Esau did not have a CHOICE concerning their lives... and neither do you.
GOD's ELECTION is about HIS PURPOSE, and HE sets those according to HIS PURPOSE to DO as HE CALLS them to do... that HIS PURPOSE and MISSION be completed according to HIS ELECTION, not the will and choices of men...
COG: The calling in Romans 9:11-12 has nothing to do with mission's but the sovereign drawing of the Father.(Rom 8:30; 2Thess 2:13 ; 2Ti 1:9 ; 1 Cor 1:2; John 6:44;65)
Willie,
JESUS said they would die in their SINS, ...He did not SAY they would not be SAVED! That, dear friend is YOUR ASSUMPTION...
COG: Ok, show me in the bible where someone dies in their sins and their sins are forgiven.
you said:
The HOLY SPIRIT of YHVH inspired PAUL to write
Willie,
1 Cor 3:11-15 -- SAVED so as BY FIRE...
If you don't get it, ...well, ...you don't get it, CoG37!
Like I said -- repetitions are not going to avail anything, ...you do not have EARS to hear, so repeating myself won't enable understanding forya... Pardon
COG: The believers works are judged. The Quality of the materials (Gold, silver, precious stones ) represent dedicated , spiritual service to build the church. ( wood, hay, stubble) represent inferior materials implying shallow activity with no eternal value. The fire represent God's discerning judgment. Christ has paid the price so their is no judgment of sin. No matter how worthless one's works are, no believer will forfeit salvation.
Beloved,
The evil angels are called "unclean" (Rev.16:13) and "evil" (Lk.8:2), and are classified as:
1. The angels who are kept in prison for their role in the Gen.6 infiltration, mentioned in 2Pet.2:4 and Jd.6, and are the same as those released to torment men in the Tribulation for five months (Rev.9:1-11).
2. The angels who remain free, usually mentioned in connection with Satan (Mt.25:41; Rev.12:7-9; cp. Rom.8:38).
3. The demons, a term used to describe all fallen angels (including Satan) and means a "lesser god" (Mt.12:24-28; 17:18; 1Cor.10:20,21; 1Tim.4:1; Jam.2:19; Rev.9:20; 18:2; Mk.1:32).
4. Having different ranks and functions under Satan (Eph.6:12).
willieH: Hi CoG37 -- :reachout:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 01:19:43 AMCOG: The believers works are judged. The Quality of the materials (Gold, silver, precious stones ) represent dedicated , spiritual service to build the church. ( wood, hay, stubble) represent inferior materials implying shallow activity with no eternal value. The fire represent God's discerning judgment. Christ has paid the price so their is no judgment of sin. No matter how worthless one's works are, no believer will forfeit salvation.
Selective reading, selective RELIGION in the flesh!
The Scripture
1 Cor 3:11-15 says --
[vs 11] there is NO FOUNDATION other than
JESUS CHRIST, and that
[vs 12] ANY MAN builds upon this foundation (not just believers as you would INSERT here), and that
[vs 13] EVERY MAN's work will be revealed by this fire (not just believers) and,
[vs 14] if
ANY MAN's work abides will recieve a reward, and,
[vs 15] if
ANY MAN's work is burned he's suffer loss (not just believers) yet will be SAVED ...BY... the FIRE!
These verses continually incorporate the Greek word
PAS which means EVERY, WHATSOEVER, ALL, etc... not just BELIEVERS!
Any act of man, which is in LINE with Holiness, will survive! There are many acts of RIGHTEOUSNESS which are done by NON-"CHRISTIANS" which SHALL survive... and many which are done by "CHRISTIANS" which shall NOT survive... there is "wood, hay and stubble" in ALL... As well as "gold, silver and precious stones" in ALL...
You use your
RELIGION to separate yourself from the neighbor you are INSTRUCTED to
LOVE... looking down upon him as a PUBLICAN, with your PHARISEEICAL vision of yourself --
Luke 18:10-14, ready to sentence and condemn him to burning forever in your beloved HELL... :thumbdown:
PAUL wrote his letters to TEACH the
GOSPEL to those in the various given cities where BELIEVERS were TAKING the
GOSPEL MESSAGE to the
WORLD (that God SO
LOVED)!
You and many like you, have a mythical and imagined, tunnel vision that it is a "modern day" mission to evangelize the
world... And even then, will you DRAW upon those letters for that which you would propose to the
WORLD? (maybe you don't)
When are you going to answer my questions "Mr. Theology"?
I'll reiterate it for the
THIRD TIME:
What is the P
URPOSE of
YHVH? Why are we going through all of this
CoG37? Do you have the slightest idea?
You've only shown to date, that you know almost nothing... and use Scripture so seldomly it makes me wonder is you really
DO have a Bible! :sigh:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
HUH???
Where did you get that commentary from?
Willie,
JESUS said they would die in their SINS, ...He did not SAY they would not be SAVED! That, dear friend is YOUR ASSUMPTION...
COG: Ok, show me in the bible where someone dies in their sins and their sins are forgiven.
COG: Congrats willie, you and the traditional Roman Catholic Church hold to similiar doctrines..They call it purgatory.
willieH: CoG -- :sigh:
How long will continue your UNBIBLICAL babble
CoG37?
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 02:02:15 AMCOG: The calling in Romans 9:11-12 has nothing to do with mission's but the sovereign drawing of the Father.(Rom 8:30; 2Thess 2:13 ; 2Ti 1:9 ; 1 Cor 1:2; John 6:44;65)
You make GOD a RESPECTER of PERSONS in every post... partial to one lump of DIRT over another, UNREASONABLE, UNMERCIFUL, a BULLY which has no glory...
Certainly NOT the God of HEAVEN, and dear Father of ALL --
YHVH... defaming His name, distorting his LOVE, and PEACE, ADDING to His Holy
WORD, ...disrupting His
GOSPEL... reporting the mission of His Son to be a FAILURE... unable to SAVE the WORLD He so LOVED... :thumbdown:
What a lot of crap. You are welcome to it... chew on it all you like, and when you are done, it shall be found SHAMEFULLY bitter in the stomach of your spirit...
GOD calls to ALL in DUE TIME --
1 Tim 2:3-6You are stubborn and purposed in your blindness... a FAILURE in answering questions, unworthy of replies, for you ignore that which EASILY confounds you and your false RELIGION...
Let's face it brother, ...you are NEVER going to change an inkling of the viewpoints here... for we have ALL been where you are, ...and NONE of us intend on returning to the foul and TAINTED message emerging from BABYLON, ...
Why not go pedal your
CALVINIST garbage to
CARM and sign up there, joining in with those that are as decieved as yourself?
Such a pity... :pitiful:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
wow Willie wow
Quote from: j. on August 18, 2009, 01:41:12 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on August 18, 2009, 01:33:44 AM
:cloud9: Surely not things both IN and UNDER the EARTH, too? :winkgrin: Blessings....
GASP!!!
You mean "all" really means "all" and not "some"?!?
:thumbsup:
Lol yeah. j! Check it out:
1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam
all die, so in Christ
all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put
everything under him,
SO THAT God may be all in all.
Interesting. We have this statement that all die in Adam. Does the church believe that? SURE! Do they believe that IN Christ all shall be made alive? NOOOOOOO!
Why not? Well first they probably would isolate that to mean resurrection. However, since they teach that everyone is already immortal (except their bodies) the only way they could be made alive otherwise is in being delivered from sin, because they are supposedly already alive otherwise! That of course would be revealed by the fact that it does not say that people will be made alive BY Christ, but IN Christ. Nevermind that. Shhhh.
Let's put the necessity for resurrection to be made alive aside for a second. Look at the logic which follows this statement "For as in Adam
all die, so in Christ
all will be made alive"
We have that statement which is followed by a description of the order by which each man who was and is dead in Adam to be made alive IN.....sorry, I just had to repeat that little word....that is IN Christ.
"When he has done this then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put
everything under him so that God will be all in all."
Now, did anything within 1 Corinthians 15 LIMIT "all?" Nope! In fact, Paul is very clear that the contextual "all" is in direct relation toooo....can you guess? ALL WHO WHERE DEAD IN ADAM, because we know from the Bible that all who were dead in Adam will be made alive....guess where....that's right..... (here is that word again)
IN .....CHRIST!
Now it says that in order for God to be "all in all" a certain someone must be "made subject" to God, one specific person. One person, one SPECIFIC person, who was given all authority in heaven and earth and thought it not robbery to be considered equal with God, according to the scripture, must now be subjected to God. Before this occurs we see that EVERYTHING has been subjected to Christ. Then we see Christ subjecting himself to God, SO THAT (which means for the purpose of) God will be all in all.
We see that EVERYTHING + CHRIST - derived from the contextual statement that all who are dead in Adam will be made alive in Christ - results in God being ALL.....IN......ALL. No limitations are expressed.
My old self says: But wait a minute, my friends told me that there are no chances in the unscripturally denoted "after life" if someone dead in Adam was not a Christian. Even though it doesn't ACTUALLY specifically say that, my Christian upbringing told me so. So....I guess....I shall invent a limit where no limit is denoted.
Ummm...well I guess....being made alive just means being resurrected.
My new self, who now believes the Bible rather than preconceived doctrines which are surmised to be stated rather than actually stated:
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
My old self says: so what?
My new self, who now believes the Bible rather than preconceived doctrines which are surmised to be stated rather than actually stated says:
Well, the same passage of scripture says that IN THE END "the last enemy to be eliminated is death" is the one that says that after EVERYTHING is subjected to Christ that God will be all in all. It is also the same scripture that says that AS IN ADAM all die, EVEN SO IN CHRIST shall all be made alive. So we can add death to the list of things which include man's rule and authority (which dictates unbelief in Christ), which shall be eliminated, because they contribute a feeble resistance to God being all in all.
If there is no death, there is no STING of death, and.....guess what....no more second death.
Wait a minute, Seth, are you saying that when death is destroyed, no more lake of fire? Of course! Because Revelation 22 simply describes the difference between the Bride and those who are not in the Bride, but Revelation 22 NEVER describes itself as as 1 Cor 15 does: "then comes the end."
Yeah Seth, you are right, I just sorta assumed that Revelation 22 was the end because the Bible guys put the book last in order in the KJV rather than 1 Cor 15.
But you are right, between Revelation 22, and Apostle Paul, he is the only one said that when the actual END comes = no more death, and since death is an enemy, then the second death cannot be allowed to continue...in the end.
Now when the last enemy is destroyed - again DEATH - it makes perfect sense to say that when God says he will be all in all, He never limits himself in context, and in fact uses the context to make sure to include all mankind.
Willie,
JESUS said they would die in their SINS, ...He did not SAY they would not be SAVED! That, dear friend is YOUR ASSUMPTION...
COG: Ok, show me in the bible where someone dies in their sins and their sins are forgiven.
COG: Congrats willie, you and the traditional Roman Catholic Church hold to similiar doctrines..They call it purgatory.
I'm not a Calvinist. That is a man made label and I don't wear it. I'm a born again child of God. The bible calls them Christians.
Thanks Seth,
It always confounds me how the Lord's simple message of salvation can be such a convoluted mass of doctrine.
People wonder where Satan is ???
In the man-made churches -religions of God, that's where!
Where else would the adversary be found?
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 02:35:50 AMCOG: Congrats willie, you and the traditional Roman Catholic Church hold to similiar doctrines..They call it purgatory.
:Yeahright: Been into the spirits haveya there COG? :Party: :beerburp: Now you resort to IMAGINARY and INVENTED things... Please quote where I have stated doctrine similar to the RCC... Of course you cannot... :rolleye:
:laughing7: Just resorting to blabbing your babble out of your south end... :laugh: Please don't breathe my way! :feint:
:dbook: Sorry, but anyone reading (beside yourself) can easily see I have said no such thing. (with these empty comments, you establish that you cannot read, pity... :crywipe:)
In fact, I have stated NO "CONDITIONING" is even NECESSARY for SIN which has been
TAKEN AWAY from the
WHOLE WORLD... as is PLAINLY reported by the
WORD:
John 1:29 -- which
WORD, unfortunately for you, ...YOU do NOT BELIEVE... :sigh:
You being deaf of EAR cannot Hear, nor apparently, ...can you read either, as you report your blindness with continuing IGNORANCE of CLEAR statements made in plain English...
Where are your "AFTERLIFE" verses COG? Having a little trouble locating, ...even, ...ONE? :laughing7:
How about the P
URPOSE of GOD, don't even know that either, doya? ...what a pitiful excuse of a "theologian" do you portray... Pretty sad... :pitiful:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Willie,
In fact, I have stated NO "CONDITIONING" is even NECESSARY for SIN which has been TAKEN AWAY from the WHOLE WORLD... as is PLAINLY reported by the WORD: John 1:29 -- which WORD, unfortunately for you, ...YOU do NOT BELIEVE... Sigh
COG: Oh really? Been taken away, huh? Then why did you make this comment?
JESUS said they would die in their SINS, ...He did not SAY they would not be SAVED! That, dear friend is YOUR ASSUMPTION...
COG: How can your sins be taken away if you die in them?
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 02:44:43 AMI'm not a Calvinist. That is a man made label and I don't wear it. I'm a born again child of God. The bible calls them Christians.
There are only THREE instances in the
WORD where MEN called other MEN -- "Christians"...
GOD never calls His people by this title in the
WORD... and neither did
CHRIST... so it is a label of MEN... used by men...
Your doctrine IS
CALVINIST... and as you would label me a "UNIVERSALIST" because you view my stand (belief in the SALVATION of ALL MEN), as being "UNIVERSALIST",
I in turn label YOU a CALVINIST, for you are ALIGNED With CALVINISM, ...NOT the
WORD... for if you were aligned with the
WORD you would be a UNIVERSALIST... :laughing7: For the Bible teaches THROUGHOUT it, the RECONCILIATION of ALL...
Since GOD called His people... "my people" -- I will accept being called that and,
Since CHRIST called His followers "disciples" -- I will accept being called that and,
Since GOD called His people... "His Children" -- I will accept being called that... other than these, I abstain from labels. You are welcome to label yourself anything you like, but just a label means nothing...
Believing in the
WORD -- AS it is
WRITTEN, without alteration is what a TRUE believer does, you do NOT do this... YOU ADD, SUBTRACT, and embellish... seldom using the
WORD at all... Using your own words OFTEN...
Found any verses that note "AFTERLIFE" yet? :dontknow:
Have you figured out the P
URPOSE of GOD yet? :dunno:
Of course you haven't... :laughing7:
...willieH :icon_king:
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 03:03:09 AMCOG: How can your sins be taken away if you die in them?
I've already explained this, and you didn't GET IT... Deaf ears hear not...
No point in re-explaining it to you, you still wouldn't, ...GET IT! :mnah:
Have you got a hearing aid yet? :laughing7:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Willie,
Tell me again and show me from scripture where the sins of the wicked are forgiven after they die. I put my hearing aid in. thanks.
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 18, 2009, 03:23:36 AM
Willie,
Tell me again and show me from scripture where the sins of the wicked are forgiven after they die. I put my hearing aid in. thanks.
From my count, you have been shown this multiple times in multiple threads. The Bible is extremely clear (especially Paul) that the cross of Christ was sufficient, once for all. Sin was forgiven at the cross, period. "Behold, the Lamb of God which
takes away the sin of the
world", period.
My goodness, read Hebrews chapters 8 and 10. Those chapters alone will show you that He "remembers our sins
no more". Either that, or the author of Hebrews was a liar, and so were the OT authors he was quoting.
My bet is that neither of them lied, God is indeed the Savior of ALL mankind, and that the problem of sin has been dealt with, once for all.
Eph 4:8-11 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 4:5-6 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. (6) For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. These verses allow for the repentence of the wicked after having been judged in the flesh (death)as men for their disobedience, then hearing the gospel in their holding cells in Sheol, clearly men, clearly once disobedient, clearly once judged by death
Php 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Who is under the earth? You can assert that this indicates a forceful submission for some about to perish and a free one for others about to live....but the verses themselves do not say anything like that, rather that it is a confession to the glory of God the Father.
Col 1:16-20 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Which of the "all things" did he not create? Over which of the "all things" is He not pre-eminent? What then, of the "all things" He created, will He not reconcile, when the Word says He will reconcile "all things", "who works all things according to the counsel of His will"?
Eph 1:9-12 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Lam 3:31-34 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: (32) But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. (33) For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. (34) To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
Luk 12:58-59 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. (59) I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
There are term limits and appropriate measure to the punishments of God some many stripes some few, even as the rewards of God are appropriate and measured, "greater resurrection(Heb 11:35), five cities, ten cities etc."
QuoteChance meaning being preached the gospel and the Father drawing you to salvation
.
No sinners cannot inheit the Kingdom of God. They cannot receive it. They cannot see it. Nada. But when they are no longer sinners they sure can.
In first and second Peter it tells of how Jesus entered into "spiritual prisons" and preached to the ones lost in the flood at the time of Noah. These ones were surely "physically dead". Their bodies were dead dead dead. But "they themselves were in spiritual prisons". They did not walk with God before physical death of their mortal bodies. But Jesus preached to them "after physical death".
Now we know that God is Love. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. What did Jesus preach? What did He command we preach? Nothing but the "good news" !! Jesus did not preach anything except "the good news". Jesus did not go into the spiritual prisons to gloat, to preach a "I told you so message" or a message of doom. That was not His nature or character. The only reason to enter into spiritual prisons to preach to those who had died previously would of been to "preach good news" to them. To tell them that about how He was crucified and through HIS SHED BLOOD on the cross, they have forgiveness because HE DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD! Not for some of the world or part of it but for all of it. If you truly read 1st and 2nd Peter, asking the Lord Himself to interpret it for you , you will see EXACTLY what Jesus preached to them. And it was ALL good news!! Jesus never preached anything but.
No God is not a God of chances. But I know from my own experience that through many many years of "having seeds planted" into my spirit, many times over , precept by precept, He drew me to Himself. I did not come to Christ the first or the tenth time I heard about Jesus. The first time I was eight. When I came to Christ I was 22. So 14 years of planting seeds and watering them , drawing me unto Himself before I surrended myself to Christ Jesus. That does not mean I had multiple chances. It merely means that for 14 years God was drawing me unto Himself.
God says "I will have ALL men saved". Either we believe Him or we don't. Our unbelief does not change truth. Nor does truth hang on our unbelief. If the statement that "I will have All men saved" is not truth then God is a liar and nothing in the bible can be believed. And even the belief of heaven and hell is a lie.
I myself beleive that salavation is a process. And just as there are "spiritual prisons" there are "realms" in God's Kingdom. These ones that were preached to in the spiritual prisons would receive Christ Jesus and forgiveness of sins but then must go on to complete the process of salvation even after death the same as we who are living and have been saved must go through a "growing up process". Justification, sanctification, glorification. I would much rather go through it here on earth before death but that is not always the case.
The bible says that when we were saved we "received power to BECOME sons of God". Paul says to strive to "achieve" the "PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING" of God to become sons of God to sit with Him in His throne to rule and reign with Him" There is deffinately a process we must all go through to "receive the Prize of the High Calling". The bible also says that "all will be saved but some will suffer loss".
Me thinks we don't look high enough to truly see God. The Kingdom of God is "within" and if this is so then ALL THINGS PERTAINING TO THE KINGDOM is also "within".
You must go deep within yourself to even see God. To know God. To hear God. From that place where deep calls upon deep.
Do not lean on your own understanding. Let the SPIRIT of the Living Christ who is dwelling "within" you , interpret the scriptures for you. Then and only then will you receive TRUTH. Which is JESUS CHRIST. It is NOT a bunch of facts with which to argue bible scriptures with. Truth is a person.
Truth is Truth and changes not.
:cloud9: AMEN eaglesway and 333.........and again, welcome to the board. :thumbsup: :goodpost: Blessings....
Quote from: ChosenofGod37 on August 17, 2009, 11:36:20 PM
J,
agreed, Christ's death was timeless (Rev13:8) but the elect need to come to repentance and faith in Jesus for it to be applied. (Galatians 4-7)
So God had/has a plan. He has elected people. He sent Jesus to die in a horrible way so His elect can have His grace applied. And now He's hoping the elect repenent otherwise His plan failed? = Missed the mark = God sinned.
"Thy Will Be Done"
Who's will is that about? The elect deciding if the will or will not repent?
I just want to say thanks to you ALL because I am learning from ALL. again Thanks
Lee :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 18, 2009, 04:55:21 PM
:cloud9: AMEN eaglesway and 333.........and again, welcome to the board. :thumbsup: :goodpost: Blessings....
Agreed! Good jobs guys! And welcome! :reachout:
Good job too Willie and Seth! As always, I enjoy your posts! :bigGrin:
ChosenofGod,
I understood UR theology coming from eternal torment theology when I understood the fact that we were made for God but God will correct us until we see our need for Him. Here are my answers to your questions.
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
I don't know that anyone teaches that sin is forgiven in the after life. Paul said sin was dealt with at the cross.
2 Cor 5: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. If God is not holding your sin against you, what would you need to be forgiven for?
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
Evidently, if one does not repent in this life, he will in the next one. It is not so important when it happens..what is so awesome is that it is going to happen. We were made by Him and for Him.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
Jer 31:34 -
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
Again, the "when" is not important. The fact is that they will.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (this is after He condemned them to Hell v 15 and 33)
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
I don't believe the wicked will avoid judgment in the afterlife.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
I don't believe this concept is a Universal Salvation teaching. If it is it is not what I believe, personally. The terms "brimstone" and "torment" indicate the purpose of the lake of fire. It is not to "condition" sin out of anyone. It is to reveal the true state of that person who has not yielded his will yet to the One who has all power. (his hardened, stubborn, condition) The statements of the Lord,(previously posted) Himself, show that all will submit/repent. Again, I say, if not in this life, then it has to be after this one.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
False presumption on your part.
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
God is merciful to all who call on Him.
Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (this is after He condemned them to Hell v 15 and 33)
Matthew 26:45And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: (means correction)but the righteous into life eternal.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
All Christian Universalist don't believe this. I'm not sure where I stand yet.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.
They are not all saved in the afterlife. Some are saved before they die.
...I am not able to "bold" or change color on these repies...not very easy to read..sorry
Debbie
COG,
Please excuse my late entry into this discussion. I'm not a real big poster here but lurk a lot.
I am hoping you would be so kind as to answer a sincere question for me.
What do YOU think the afterlife will be like for the damned?
Just curious.
Thank you in advance.
Hey COG37,
Very tough statements to prove biblically. I hope some one can. I just posted my first topic can you go th the homepage and give me your take. Thanks.
Quote from: dboutwell on August 19, 2009, 07:46:08 PM
ChosenofGod,
I understood UR theology coming from eternal torment theology when I understood the fact that we were made for God but God will correct us until we see our need for Him. Here are my answers to your questions.
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
I don't know that anyone teaches that sin is forgiven in the after life. Paul said sin was dealt with at the cross.
2 Cor 5: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. If God is not holding your sin against you, what would you need to be forgiven for?
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
Evidently, if one does not repent in this life, he will in the next one. It is not so important when it happens..what is so awesome is that it is going to happen. We were made by Him and for Him.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
Jer 31:34 -
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Corinthians 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
Again, the "when" is not important. The fact is that they will.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (this is after He condemned them to Hell v 15 and 33)
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
I don't believe the wicked will avoid judgment in the afterlife.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
I don't believe this concept is a Universal Salvation teaching. If it is it is not what I believe, personally. The terms "brimstone" and "torment" indicate the purpose of the lake of fire. It is not to "condition" sin out of anyone. It is to reveal the true state of that person who has not yielded his will yet to the One who has all power. (his hardened, stubborn, condition) The statements of the Lord,(previously posted) Himself, show that all will submit/repent. Again, I say, if not in this life, then it has to be after this one.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
False presumption on your part.
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
God is merciful to all who call on Him.
Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Matthew 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (this is after He condemned them to Hell v 15 and 33)
Matthew 26:45And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: (means correction)but the righteous into life eternal.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
All Christian Universalist don't believe this. I'm not sure where I stand yet.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.
They are not all saved in the afterlife. Some are saved before they die.
...I am not able to "bold" or change color on these repies...not very easy to read..sorry
Debbie
I thought that was excellent, Deb
cp
:cloud9: Hi; Just letting the above posters know that CoG37 has been banned and therefore will not be responding to your comments. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 12:19:20 AM
:cloud9: Hi; Just letting the above posters know that CoG37 has been banned and therefore will not be responding to your comments. Blessings....
What about maybe cog under another name? Or a cog wannabe?
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on August 20, 2009, 12:19:20 AM
:cloud9: Hi; Just letting the above posters know that CoG37 has been banned and therefore will not be responding to your comments. Blessings....
Gary Amirault (owner of this website) had been dealing with him for the longest via email, and had given him tons and tons and tons of materials, proofs, resources, Scriptures, et. al., and cog37 wasn't the least bit interested. He was banned over his lack of character and lack of fruit of the spirit rather than over the content of his posts. I'd of allowed him to have posted another 10,000 posts, had he simply not been abusive. And his ban included being banned by IP, so, not likely that he'd be back under any other name and either nicer about it or undetected by other means. I plead with cog37 to be more agreeable in his attitude even if not in his content, but he wouldn't listen about this not being the place for target practice. So, to avoid the tempers that were flaring at him as much as to deal firmly with his abusiveness, he had to go.
Gary's very interested in reviewing all of his posts, but already knows who this Aaron Curry is, and without going into further details here from Gary's emails to me about it, it's basically a Calvinist Charismatic. Had Gary wished it to continue, I'd of gladly PMed WillieH, Tony Nungesser, and quite a few others about it being open season on a Calvinist and Gary issuing temporary hunting licenses, but he was evidently only mildly amused at the suggestion and Gary hasn't gotten back to me on that. These boards are not places of debate, hence Gary had the debate board pulled before I became admin. But disagreeing opinions are welcomed just as much as those of Restorationists. But disagreeable attitudes aren't!! Quite a few folks have been on thin ice around here about that before that are regulars and I wasn't going to soften that up just over bending over backwards for a contrary opinion. His content wasn't the issue, but his attitude as hopefully is abundantly clear with his 176 posts in 3.5 days where all he basically did was spam and bark at us.
Sounds good and fair and wise to me, Martin.
cp
martin,
I can't say i'm not disappointed about banning COG37. after reading his threads and some of the responses of other people on this forum there behavior IMO was worse than his. i see zeal in cog37 in what he believes and to say that you would of had open season on him because he was a Calvinist Charasmatic seems to me that your behavior and attitude would of been the same of that which COG was banned for. am i wrong?
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 02:23:36 AM
martin,
I can't say i'm not disappointed about banning COG37. after reading his threads and some of the responses of other people on this forum there behavior IMO was worse than his. i see zeal in cog37 in what he believes and to say that you would of had open season on him because he was a Calvinist Charasmatic seems to me that your behavior and attitude would of been the same of that which COG was banned for. am i wrong?
Hi Aaron (or perhaps Aaron's friend). So after reading Martin's post, it would seem that you're back under a new ISP, or perhaps one of your friend's. You may be posting from a different ISP, (perhaps from a local library or something) but there are trademarks to your style, errors, and so on as well as a number of other pieces of circumstantial evidence that you're very likely either Aaron or one of his friends.
I think it was disrespectful to open up so many simultaneous threads. It's obvious what his intentions and strategies were.
There was no way he could answer all those questions, which he didn't. He just tried to create problems and he failed.
1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
'who is the Saviour of all men,'....this doesn't need to be interpreted and the rest of the sentence doesn't undo it.
I agree with the Admin deciscion ,it is one thing to post about your beleifs and ask questions, It is another thing to spam about your beleifes on a site that is obviosly for those who are genuinely curious or genuine believers.And there is no need to be cofrontational about it (not saying that I am or never have felt that way or perhaps postedsomething that could have been taken as such) .
I agree, cog open up way to many threads, but martins comments about having open season on his calvinistic charasmatic beliefs is the same behavior you accuse him of. are you any better?
"The prodigal son has returned; virtue beyond death."
peacemaker :boogie:
Quote from: martincisneros on August 20, 2009, 02:07:32 AM
And his ban included being banned by IP,
An IP ban can be bypassed quite easlily in several ways.
QuoteThese boards are not places of debate, .... But disagreeing opinions are welcomed
A very vague statement (for me). There is no white and black. Only shades of grey. And it often is hard to tell when the grey has turned to dark. Just my personal opinion but I think debates shouldn't be banned. The problem doesn't lay in debating but in angry posts. And anger always in counter productive. Unless you are an arms dealer... :laughing7:
(Martin plz check your PM)
Quote from: lee100 on August 20, 2009, 05:48:30 AM
I agree, cog open up way to many threads, but martins comments about having open season on his calvinistic charasmatic beliefs is the same behavior you accuse him of. are you any better?
I am no better than Martin, are you lee?
cp