Statements to understand UR theology. Please give biblical answers only.

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey everyone,

I know that all universalist do not agree on all the statements below, I just ask you to pick out the questions that pertain to your thinking or theology and simply give scripture references for your answers. If you refuse to answer the statements, you are telling me that you believe in a theology that does not require  you to give scripture references and you simply put your faith in something that is not biblical. How can I learn your theology without you giving direct scripture evidence of the statements below? I'm excited for you to defend and teach me from scripture the following statements below.




PLEASE GIVE BOOK ,CHAPTER AND VERSE IN THE BIBLE FOR THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS:



    1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.

    2) The wicked repenting in the after life.

    3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.

    4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.

    5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.

    6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).

    7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.

    8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.

    9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.

    10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Please state the scripture chapter and verse where it states


1. God is limited by our death.

[ChosenofGod37]

Paul,

This post is to understand your theology, not mine. Please answer the statements biblically or don't. Thanks.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Seeing the nature of my question will help you understand.

One biblical answer is seeing what the bible does not say  all your questions hinge on seeing the limitation that God is limited by our death.

So a great factor in understanding our theology is understanding that there is not one word about God being limited by our death.

[ChosenofGod37]

Paul,

I understand what your saying, but this is your chance to prove your theology from the bible that God is not limited. Saying "prove to me that God is limited by our death" is answering rhetorically. Answer the statements biblically or don't. I'm trying to understand your theology, not you understanding mine. This thread is to teach me from the word of God your theology or don't. Please do not respond rhetorically and waste our time. Thanks.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Wasting time is a matter of perspective.   I actually am presenting biblical proof by explaining what the bible does not say concerning your questions.

If others respond differently then that is their preogative.   This is also for readers of your questions to gain perspective.


I will respond to #3


3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.


Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee  bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;

Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue  confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1C 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

This is something ALL will do and if some say that a person died before bowing and confessing that Jesus is Lord, then they do it after death on earth as this passage proclaims.


If all do it, then some who were wicked when they died are doing it after they die and since no one can say that without the Holy Ghost then  then something has happened to the wicked who died on earth to get the holy ghost in order to say it after they die.


This is the perspective of God not being limited by our earthly death that is causing you to perhaps not understand.

There is no waste of time, if you are sincere about understanding, then discuss all the aspects of how this theology can be seen in scripture.

[ChosenofGod37]

Thanks Paul for responding to #3,

Answering rhetorically is a waste of time. I would like to address the scriptures you gave for the wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the afterlife.

Phillipians 2:10-11. The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord. (Ps 2). This mandate includes the angels in heaven ( Rev 4:2-9), the spirits of the redeemed ( Rev 4: 10-11), obedient believers on earth ( Rom 10:9), the disobedient rebels on earth ( 2 Th 1:7-9), demons and lost humanity in hell (1 Pet 3:18-22). The Gr. word for "confess"  means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.

! Cor 12:3  Look above for explanation.

You have given no evidence that the wicked accept Jesus in the after life to be saved according to these scriptures.

[jabcat]

Good post Paul.  Perhaps others can get to more specifics later.  One "little" thing I like about the scripture you quoted, that IMO, makes it even more powerful, if that's possible.  Some translations, including the KJV say "by"...an even more literal translation is "IN" the Holy (or Pure) Spirit.  I think that's cool.   :thumbsup:

[ChosenofGod37]

Thanks Paul for responding to #3,

Answering rhetorically is a waste of time. I would like to address the scriptures you gave for the wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the afterlife.

Phillipians 2:10-11. The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord. (Ps 2). This mandate includes the angels in heaven ( Rev 4:2-9), the spirits of the redeemed ( Rev 4: 10-11), obedient believers on earth ( Rom 10:9), the disobedient rebels on earth ( 2 Th 1:7-9), demons and lost humanity in hell (1 Pet 3:18-22). The Gr. word for "confess"  means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.

! Cor 12:3  Look above for explanation.

You have given no evidence that the wicked accept Jesus in the after life to be saved according to these scriptures.

[Paul Hazelwood]

You have given no evidence that the wicked accept Jesus in the after life to be saved according to these scriptures.

That's just a declaration that you do not agree, your assertion is false.  I gave evidence, your disagreement is irrelevant to proving that I did not.

Please refrain from your own rhetoric if you are going to tell me not to respond in such a manner.

[jabcat]

Q for you 37.  Do you honestly want to learn, or rather attempt to refute?  There are many studies on these topics on TM home page.  It would honestly help me decide to get into specifics with you if I knew you were open and searching as opposed to looking for opportunity to debate and attempt to prove your own position.

For instance, I asked you in an earlier post regarding your belief on aonios/eternal, hoping to clarify your stance regarding eternal punishment, etc. ;  and I may be mistaken, but I don't belief you answered me.  So honestly, I question your motives in asking these questions.

If you truly want to learn, great.  If not, you may find that many will not attempt to persuade the unpersuadable.  God will do that later in one degree or another with us all.

James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

! Cor 12:3  Look above for explanation.

1C 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


This is not explained above at all.   The Holy Ghost enables someone to confess and one of the rock solid tenants of a path with Christ is having the Holy Ghost.

So to say someone has the Holy Ghost and is still damned is a contradiction.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Good post Paul.  Perhaps others can get to more specifics later.  One "little" thing I like about the scripture you quoted, that IMO, makes it even more powerful, if that's possible.  Some translations, including the KJV say "by"...an even more literal translation is "IN" the Holy (or Pure) Spirit.  I think that's cool.   :thumbsup:

The passage in philippians applies to every single person and have yet to see even Eternal Hell believing Christians be able to say otherwise.  The one in 1 Corinthians is a supporting scripture that tells us the manner in which they confess.


So it is a blatent contradiction to any tenant of the Christian faith to say that someone with the Holy Ghost could confess Jesus as Lord and be damned for all eternity.

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey James,

Both. I just don't believe something because you say so. If you can teach your position with proper interpretation than I will concede to the truth. No problem, No one is beyond  learning. There is the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error and it's up to you to be able to discern the two by the Holy Spirit.

[ChosenofGod37]

Paul,

In Mark 1:24, there is an instance where demons cried out that Jesus was the Holy one of God and yet we know that demons aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will bow and confess unwillingly and painfully.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

In Mark 1:24, there is an instance where demons cried out that Jesus was the Holy one of God and yet we know that demons aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will bow and confess unwillingly and painfully.

Edit (had second thoughts about what I wrote here if you saw it before editing)

As scripture states, no one can confess Jesus as Lord without the Holy Spirit enabling them to do so.  The scripture in philippians includes someone who died on this earth as a wicked person.  So, you have not explained how that wicked person then confessing Jesus as Lord by the Holy Ghost is still damned for all eternity.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

In Mark 1:24, there is an instance where demons cried out that Jesus was the Holy one of God and yet we know that demons aren't inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will bow and confess unwillingly and painfully.

Mk 1:24 Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.


This is a statement of their knowledge, there is no account here of them confessing Jesus as THEIR LORD

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey Paul,

Because the wicked are bowing and confessing unwillingly and painfully. The Holy Spirit forces them to confess. The righteous confess willingly and joyfully. The wicked do it unwillingly and painful.

[ChosenofGod37]

Paul,

The demon affirmed Jesus' sinlessness and deity. the Holy one of God.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hey Paul,

Because the wicked are bowing and confessing unwillingly and painfully. The Holy Spirit forces them to confess. The righteous confess willingly and joyfully. The wicked do it unwillingly and painful.

Please reply biblically if you expect others to do so.


Provide  scripture that details "The wicked bowing and confessing unwillingly and painfully through the Holy spirit"   And how that according to philippians 2:11 is  "To the Glory of God the Father"   Since this scripture contradicts that idea.

Ezk 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Provide Scripture that details  "The holy spirit forcing them to confess in the manner you say "unwillingly and painfully"

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul,

The demon affirmed Jesus' sinlessness and deity. the Holy one of God.

That's not the issue, this is not an account of them "confessing Jesus as LORD"

It is their knowledge of who he is, there is a difference.


Even an Atheist can read the bible and say that the bible says that Jesus is Saviour, the son of God and see that he was sinless and that is biblical knowledge, but that is not the Atheist confessing Jesus as Lord.


Mk 1:24 Saying, Let [us] alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He did it in the first chapter of Genesis when He looked back on ALL the days, which were DARKNESS and light, and said they were good, even VERY good. Since darkness means ignorance, that includes those who are ignorant of Him in this life.

And since He knows the end from the beginning and He 'wins', He was able to look back on those that stayed in the mentality of the first 6 days, knowing that their end was to be consumed into Him, as all came from and return to, God the Father.

A day is like a thousand years to God. We are in the 6th day from Adam and the 3rd from Christ. He said to tell Herod that fox (a type of the carnal mind) that today and tomorrow (2 days or 2000 years) He would do cures and cast out devils but the THIRD DAY, He would be perfected (means completed in Hebrew). We know He was already perfect or complete, so He was not talking about Himself the Head, but of His body, whose body we ALL are, ie. He died for ALL men, that ALL men might be saved.

We are therefore in the dawning of the 7th day, a day of no part darkness, when ALL of the darkness of the previous 6 is getting ready to be pronounced good, even very good, which denotes a change of nature, ie. from darkness to light, the light of Father and the Son. Blessings....

[lookingup]

Since it is apparent that you have your mindset set locked into what you believe, i believe you want to sow seeds of dissent, for whatever reasons you have.

          i have no desire to try to change someones mind, if they don't want it changed, but i will give you this one piece of scripture that imo says ALL will come to Jesus:

Isa 26:9 -
With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

i know, i know , i know the next verse says they do not learn.........but verse 10 is talking about their present time.

vs 9 is talking about later........and you ask when?  When Gods" judgement is come upon the earth"

and when is that?  it hasn't happened yet

[ChosenofGod37]

Hey lookingup,

No one is beyond learning including myself. If you can answer these statements biblically with sound interpretation than I will concede to the truth of the word of God. But, if you cannot provide adequate support of these statements biblically and with sound interpretation, why would I believe you or anyone else?

[ChosenofGod37]

Paul,

The Gr. word for "confess"  means "to acknowledge", "affirm", or "agree" which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ's lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.