SNIPPETS FROM THE HARD COPY UR LIBRARY OF RODGER TUTT

[rodgertutt]

Thanks rosered

GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia (whose heart the Lord opened, Acts 16:14) and Saul of Tarsus (Acts 9:1-8), our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
God arranges everything so each person will be saved according to His perfect timing for each individual.

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
http://concordant.org/expositions/his-achievement-are-we/part-9-choosing-choice/
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

ARMINIAN ET BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to use your "free" will and cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever."

My advice, don't put your faith in your faith. Your faith may, and probably will be misplaced from time to time, especially if you are having faith in your self.
Put your faith in Jesus Christ instead, because even if He casts you into the lake of fire which is the second death it will achieve the age-during corrective chastisement that He has promised to everyone who needs it.

[joeteekay]

GRACE OVERWHELMS

What I perceive to be a basic issue.

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Yes, it is the basic issue. Believers in unlimited free will or free moral agency put them selves in a position more powerful than God. They sit in the temple of their minds making themselves to be God.

Every Christian church I know of believes that we all have free will or free moral agency. I have heard, on numerous occasions, these words spoken from the pulpit. Time and again I am told we all have free will and free moral agency.  These ideas were originated by philosophers and theologians. The reason is simple, if their ideas are correct, it gives reason for the belief that man can overrule the ultimate will of God in their lives. It means that man can refuse the salvation of God and thereby end up in hell or be annihilated by God. That takes any responsibility off of God and validates the end result of hell or annihilation by mans unwillingness to have faith in and veneration of God.

There is no mention of free will or free moral agency in the bible. Many people believe what the theologians and preachers have told them and conclude that this concept is in the bible. It is not. Yes, "free offering" is there. Also mention of our will and God's will is there. Mention of making choices is there too. But to place the word "free" in front of "will" or "choice" is reading into scripture what is not there.

We have a will but it is constrained by a number of factors. We do not have unlimited free will.

:Peace2: - Joe

[eaglesway]

I personally think that neither perspective on free will/sov is the basic issue. For me anyway, the basic issue is one's view of who God is, not recognizing Jesus as the image of God, misunderstanding the divine nature.

If one understands that God is love, then it doesnt matter how He accomplishes the end goal, because He makes all things work according to the counsel of His desire- to love and to bring all into love- because that is WHO HE IS. "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time 1 Tim 2:3-6

As in Adam all died, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order.... 1 Cor 15:22

There are many who believe God is 100 percent in control of everything, and yet still believe He will torment millions of millions forever. IMO it is their failure to know Him as HE IS at the root of their blindness, and thank God each one of them will eventually see Him as HE IS and bow the knee and confess His Lordship in gratitude and praise.

[rosered]

  Thank you Rodger   :dsunny:   Joe and John / eaglesway

I am comforted and overwhelmed   by this amazing grace of God  though our Lord Jesus Christ   , this holy name and powerful  purpose  , there is no other name under heaven by which you must be saved !
  I  trust in His holy name and call upon it often in the times when evil  comes to destroy  the good ,  this being  a truth for me so often now .
  In my own flesh  as well as others [ thorns ]  in our flesh and  the words of Paul , asking for the removal of it , but the   Words of truth telling him  Gods grace is sufficient   for him  ...

  I quote the simple and beautiful TRUTH  of Gods love
   
Romans 5 Death in Adam, Life in Christ


...19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


20The Law was given so that the trespass would increase; but where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness, to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord....


I have  nothing good in me , but the Lord  being so close ,  as to call upon His name   in the  time of our trials , He promised to not leave us   as orphans     as    the Holy Spirit  is witness   and my  understanding of what the Holy Spirit really means to me as being     IS the Father and the  Son and all   that has went before us   already!   what a cloud  of   holy  witnesses that is !
  Truth reigns supreme !!!!!!   and I have learned though it all,  to trust    in Him  more and more  fully  as  the end  of  all things  approach us .  :HeartThrob:



 

[rodgertutt]

Butch Cassidy

To paraphrase what the Sundance Kid might say to Butch Cassidy during a theological discussion ---
"You keep believing that God is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of everlasting suffering Butch. That's what you're good at."

But if any reader has any desire to consider another point of view about what the Bible teaches then here is a great place to start.

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

THE GOSPEL FROM OUTER SPACE – ROBERT SHORT
"The gospel of love heard from the churches is at bottom a gospel at gunpoint. This gospel claims to speak of a great love, but only one step behind this "love" is an unspoken, or often very vocal great threat – the threat of eternity in "hell" if we refuse this love. What a travesty of love, even human love, not to mention God's! For one would think that God's love ought to be at least as great as what human beings are capable of. It is precisely the implied or expressed threat of eternal perdition that compromises the churches' 'gospel of love,' and gives this 'gospel' the lie to ordinary people, and is in fact behind by far, most of atheism.

On the other hand, this is not the quality of mercy I see in God. I get the strong feeling of an infinite, unconditional, no-strings-attached love for all people. At the same time this love is all-powerful and sovereign. It is not so flimsy and pitifully weak that it can be finally frustrated or defeated by mere human whim or by meager man's arrogant illusion called 'free will.' "

[rodgertutt]

CHARLES SLAGLE

Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.

If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 78 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.richardwaynegarganta.com/4ViewsOfSalvation.htm

You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle

In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.

If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.

After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, "Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?  :Chinscratch:

[rodgertutt]

"SECOND CHANCE"

It is true that God doesn't give anyone a second chance after they die.
But it is also true that God doesn't even give anyone a first chance while they are still alive. God doesn't save anyone by chance. But He will eventually save everyone on purpose.

CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE

People who don't think salvation is 100% by God, not just 100% "provided" by God like to be in the hands of their own "free" will. That is where they feel most secure.

IMO, that is the most basic difference between ETers and URs.

Just like in the case of Lydia, and Saul of Tarsus, our cooperation to be saved is the result, not the cause, of God laying hold on us by His sovereign grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart.

The timing of the salvation of everyone is under God's sovereign control.
We are saved when God wants us to be, no thanks to ourselves at all.

SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS DEBARRED

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE - James Coram
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice.
When He is made choice He becomes choice and so is choice; or to say the same thing, He is chosen.
This first act of the believer in which Christ is consciously chosen, is merely a consequence of his new mental preference which has been graciously granted to him by God."

Repentance will occur when God lays hold on the sinner by His saving grace.

"Not you choose Me, but I choose you..." John 15:16
"Too often is salvation made a matter of the sinner's choice. This sadly mars the full and clear apprehension of God's love which it is intended to reveal. All active effort in redemption is the outflow of divine love, and is entirely on God's side. All the sinner's activity is a hindrance, He would choose anyone but God. His part is a passive or a negative one.

We were chosen by God in Christ before the disruption. Sin itself was subsequent to His choice of us. Hence, sin, either past or present, cannot affect God's purpose for us, or our acceptance of His grace. He chooses, He calls, He glorifies. He does not give man his choice or a chance. He has the wisdom and the power to impel men to fall into line with His purpose no matter what their natural inclination may be.
All human experience confirms the divine declaration that He it is Who is operating in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight (Phil. 2:13).
Man can carry out his own will only so far as it accords with the
purpose of God. When men rage against God, He uses their wrath as far
as it is useful to His plans. The remainder of their wrath He
restrains." - Snippet from the Concordant Commentary

[jugghead]

To say that we made any choice on our own without any divine intervention is to steal from God the glory that only belongs to Him .....

it was HIS choice before the foundation of the world to save mankind ..... IMO, to say anything else is not of God

[rodgertutt]

If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."

And they were reading the Bible in its original language. 

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html   

[marie glen]

Amen! Salvation (reconciliation) is all His doing! :thumbsup:

"No one to whom Christ is not yet choice can choose Christ.
And Christ cannot be choice to anyone to whom He has not yet been made choice."
    :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: I bookmarked this post..

If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EarlyChristianView.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote "The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures."

And they were reading the Bible in its original language. 

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html   

[darryl]

CHARLES SLAGLE


In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is
that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.

If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.

The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.

:

if the Bible did teach ECT we would all be 'had it'...couldn't trust a god that would do something so heinous and that god is a hypocrite cos he tells us to love and forgive our enemies while hating, never forgiving and torturing his enemies.Praise God He is nothing lke that...tonight I prayed on my knees by the side of my bed....I praised Jesus and thanked Him for loving EVERY ONE of His human creation..I praised Him for saving ALL of His children...I felt the love of Jesus deep within me. He is a WONDERFUL AND LOVING God and His plan is PERFECT !.!.

[rodgertutt]

Why I believe that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young's literal, Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham's Emphasized, Scarlett's, J.W. Hanson's New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth's (unedited), Clementson's,  The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger's Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell's translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

Dean Hough, director of THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP wrote "The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . ." (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28)."
Dean Hough

SEE

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES IN CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

[rodgertutt]

Sooner or later God will have (wants if you like) all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
It is God's "pleasure" that all mankind be saved.
And "God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).

Change it to read "in accord with the counsel of what He wants if you like.
Because God says
"My counsel shall stand.
I will do all my pleasure
(the saving of all mankind is part of the pleasure that God wants)
Yea I have spoken it.
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it.
I will also do it."
Isaiah 46:10,11

Job 23:13 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose Him?
He does whatever he pleases.
(the saving of all mankind is part of what He wants that pleases Him).

Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
(the saving of all mankind is part of all of which God desires or wants)

So we see God does all His pleasure, He does whatever He pleases, and His word accomplishes that which He desires.
His pleasure, that which He desires and pleases Him is what He wants.

His will = What He wants
What does He want?
THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND
Why will it happen?
Because God Himself will see to it that it gets done.

Any cooperation towards our salvation is the result, not the cause of God laying hold on us by His saving grace and causing Jesus to be "choice" in our heart, just like it was in the case of Lydia and Saul of Tarsus.

The opinions of exactly how God will achieve universal salvation may differ from UR to UR just like the opinions of ETers also vary from person to person about what the Bible teaches about salvation.

[sheila]

Amen,Roger.  He will do it His way.

   

[rodgertutt]

A DAY OF SALVATION

NOW IS "A" DAY OF SALVATION
(not "the" day of salvation)
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/today.html

[rodgertutt]

DEATH SHALL BE ABOLISHED  -  1 Cor. 15:20-28

Argument:
"This only means that believers will never die again."

RESPONSES

Bob Evely
I would simply suggest that these folks are ignoring the context of the
1 Corinthians 15 passage (ALL in Adam ... ALL in Christ, etc) and the many other ALL passages in Scripture. It is a case where their minds are made up that only believers will ever be saved; so they find it necessary to place limitations on what the Scriptures actually say, lest their doctrines fall apart.

Tony Nungesser
Death is abolished for the believer AT HIS PRESENCE. In 1 Cor.15:25 death is abolished AFTER Christ hands over the kingdom to God and all sovereignty, authority and power are done away. Then the rest of mankind will have death abolished for them and only then.

Kenneth Larsen
For me, 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is where the abolition of death is best detailed. And the subject is clearly all mankind. Plus, it says plainly that it is the LAST enemy, clearly detailing the subjection of all which must occur BEFORE. And there are clearly still kings during the New Jerusalem eon, so human authorities have yet to be nullified; Christ's mission isn't complete. Rev. 21:24. Death will be abolished for all mankind in three stages -1 Cor. 15:22-24. Then there are verses like Romans 5:18, 19.

"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary." 1 John 3:8b (CLV) That includes the act of leading Adam and Eve into the knowledge of good and evil. Christ was manifested to annul not only sin, but also death. For the second death to be endless would mean that the acts of the Adversary would never be annulled.

If only believers never die again, then death would be abolished when Christ returns, wouldn't it? That would be the consummation or "end." Why then is there the 1,000 years? Isn't Satan an enemy? Yet the Bible says that death is the last enemy. Satan is still rebellious after the 1,000 years.

I would ask them, "When do you think death will be abolished?"

If they say, "When Christ returns", I would ask, "And the events of
Rev. 20:7-15, do they occur after or before Christ's second coming?"

If they say, "After", I would ask them if they had read 1 Cor. 15:20-28 lately. I would encourage them to do so and to notice that death will be the last enemy, and God will abolish it. If they agree with that, I would ask them, how can death be abolished when Christ returns if Satan will later attack the saints; wouldn't that mean that there are still enemies besides death in existence? Wouldn't the fact that the nations will be deceived and join Satan in opposing God prove that God will still have many enemies at that time? I would point out that 1 Cor. 15:24-27 shows that Christ will give up His kingdom to God the Father once all enemies are subjected and death is abolished. And I would mention one of the parallel passages in Mk. 12:36, which shows that Christ will be at God's right hand UNTIL a certain point in time, which is detailed in 1 Cor. 15. Then I would point out how Rev. 22:1-3 shows clearly that the consummation of 1 Cor. 15:24, when Christ will surrender the throne to His Father, will not yet have arrived during the New Jerusalem eon.

My POV is that God would not name the lake of fire the second death, make that death permanent, and yet claim that death had been abolished. It simply doesn't make sense to me. To argue that death being abolished only means that believers will never die again is similar to saying that slums being abolished only means no new slums will be created, leaving the existing slums unchanged.

James Coram
The context has in view all mankind (not simply believers):
Death was long ago instituted ("to die, you shall be dying"); and yet
this institution which, at present, is very much still in effect, one
day, will be abolished..

Martin Zender
A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), pages
66-67, by Martin Zender:
"God is now conciliated to all mankind (II Corinthians 5:19). This
blessing has come to us through the blood of Christ's cross
(Colossians 1:20). God no longer holds men's offenses against them (II
Corinthians 5:19). This same blood will reconcile all to Himself, both
that in the heavens and that on earth (Colossians 1:20).
The cross saves everyone, but not all at once (I Corinthians
15:22-23). Jesus Christ is a ransom for all, but the testimony of it
will not be seen until the eras designated to show it (I Timothy 2:6).
God will one day be all and in all (I Corinthians 15:28). How can He
be that if billions of the all remain dead or tortured?
Paul speaks of a time called the consummation, when death is to be
abolished (I Corinthians 15:26; II Timothy 1:10). If there will one
day be no more death, then the time is coming when even the second
death will cease to be. At this time, those formerly captured by it
will be delivered into the life won for them by Christ on the cross.
With no more death, nothing remains but life. Some come to Christ
sooner, some come later. But eventually, all come."

[jugghead]

all these statements by those who believe in ET or EA always reminds me of a quote I heard:

Reason is not automatic ... those who deny it ... cannot be conquered by it  :sigh:

One of the definitions of the word "reason" as a noun is: sound judgment; good sense  :Chinscratch:

How can anyone think it is "good" sense to throw 95% of mankind in a torturous hell?  :eek:

The thing is: I use to believe that ET was truth and I would argue with my last breath that ET was truth and no man could have convinced me otherwise  :punish:

and what I believe to be part of the glory of God is: ONLY HE CAN CONVINCE US OTHERWISE so that no man can boast  :banana:

IT IS ALL HIS DOING ..... it is only now that I can confess that Jesus is Lord and that my knee does bow and I long for the day that ALL of mankind understands this  :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Amen jugghead!!!  :thumbsup:

[darryl]

all these statements by those who believe in ET or EA always reminds me of a quote I heard:

Reason is not automatic ... those who deny it ... cannot be conquered by it  :sigh:

One of the definitions of the word "reason" as a noun is: sound judgment; good sense  :Chinscratch:

How can anyone think it is "good" sense to throw 95% of mankind in a torturous hell?  :eek:

The thing is: I use to believe that ET was truth and I would argue with my last breath that ET was truth and no man could have convinced me otherwise  :punish:

and what I believe to be part of the glory of God is: ONLY HE CAN CONVINCE US OTHERWISE so that no man can boast  :banana:

IT IS ALL HIS DOING ..... it is only now that I can confess that Jesus is Lord and that my knee does bow and I long for the day that ALL of mankind understands this  :thumbsup:

agreed !...good post !

[rodgertutt]

DECRETIVE WILL

I think of myself as a theistic determinist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God's decretive will, or that which MUST occur, in contrast to God's preceptive will, which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.

I believe that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person's life too.

[rodgertutt]

THE TEACHING THAT COMES FROM DEMONS

THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE
Doctrine of Endless Punishment
BY THOMAS B. THAYER
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

[rodgertutt]

Some people think that Matt. 10:33 means that deniers will never be saved.
But Peter denied Christ three times, Matt. 26:75, and so will all other deniers repent in due time.

[rodgertutt]

DRAW / DRAG?
In John 12:32, in signifying by what death He was about to be dying (v.33), Jesus said, 'And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself.'
It is not that "draw" means "drag;" it is rather that an agency which draws, is equally as effective as an agency which drags. When a man is dragged, he is moved contrary to his will; when a man is drawn, he is moved in correspondence to his will, according to the influences which cause him to choose as he does. Agencies which drag, determine the
body; agencies which draw, determine the heart, from which spring the outflowings of life (Prov.4:23).

When one is "drawn in" to doing something, he is still caused to act as he does; he must still do what he, even if gently, is "drawn" to do--as much so as if he were "dragged" ("kicking and screaming") into so doing. It is simply that an agency which "draws," engages the will and instills the voluntary behavior which follows, in contradistinction to a power that merely compels outward acts--"dragging" them forth--without gaining the acquiescence of the will.
Thus we rejoice to know that while no one can come to Christ if ever the Father Who sends Him should not be drawing him (John 6:44), in due time, under God, Christ "shall be drawing all to Himself" (John 12:32). James Coram
 
It would be good to answer this question: When will Christ draw to Himself the multiplied millions who die without having once heard about the one true God? (This would include hundreds of millions of small children.) - Kenneth Larsen

[marie glen]

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