What do you think?
Is He in everyone? I mean everyone?
Could it be that when Holy Spirit was given to diciples in pentecost, it was actually given to whole humankind, to everyone?
Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit, but are not aware of that they do?
I feel in my heart that that might be true.
Church is there to help people to become aware of that god allready is with them?
I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is within everyone, but believers sealed while mature wise christians filled with cup running over, but I do believe the book of acts that says in the last days the Holy spirit is poured out on all flesh which includes non belivers..
The book of acts, quotes Peter saying to the crowd, that we are in the last days.
Here's the ultimate question then...
Are WE in the last days?
OR was Peter telling the people he WAS TALKING TO (2000 years ago) in the last days?
Hi;
A few things have to happen first. One of the main things that is talked about in 2 Thess is the man of lawlessness who claims to be god and sets himself up in the sanctuary of God. [ Thess 2;4 ]
I just started to think this when i just recently read a book by brother Roger of taize. I understood that this was one of his message in the book: Holy Spirit is in everyone.
And when i have read some other theologians who i really appreciate i have found the same idea. I have also found out that they are universalists. (And some sort of mystics).
But offcourse this is not really suitable idea with classic christian dogmas.
Maybe there's a distinction between 'on' and 'in"?
There will come a time when "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea." When every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord. We are not yet there. God is not yet All in All. That appears to occur when all enemies are under His feet and Jesus hands things over to the Father. Satan is still active, has not been bound or restored. Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock...hear my voice, open the door, I will COME IN..."
As I understand, the church's responsibility is much, but includes proclaiming Jesus is the Savior of the world, and "whoever calls on the name of the Lord WILL BE saved". The jailer asked, "sirs, what must I do to BE saved?" They told him to believe upon Jesus. Jesus said "marvel not when I say you must be born again" (spiritually reborn from above). Many have a head knowledge. The Holy Spirit convicts and calls individuals into a "heart experience", through faith God gives to believe on Jesus as Savior. Not all now. The ecclesia now, the rest later - each in his own order (I Cor. 15:23).
I agree that it is about a "heart experience". :HeartThrob:
Even if Holy Spirit would be with everyone, i do not think it would mean church as unemployed.
There are still a lot of people who do not know Jesus in their heart.
It would only change that being reborn, being babtized with Holy Spirit, being filled with Holy Spirit would not be a act where God enters human heart.
But rather an act where everlasting fire bursts into great flames in human heart.
Have to pray and think about this. :)
I was just weird when i like a week ago thought this thing when i was writing a sermon where i had a bit this idea that "God is with all". I was wondering can i really preach this. Then i got that book of taize's brother roger and there was that idea present, Holy Spirit is in everyone.
Also now i found that another my favourite theologian has the same idea.
Quote from: hopingpriest on June 05, 2011, 08:16:04 AM
I agree that it is about a "heart experience". :HeartThrob:
Even if Holy Spirit would be with everyone, i do not think it would mean church as unemployed.
There are still a lot of people who do not know Jesus in their heart.
It would only change that being reborn, being babtized with Holy Spirit, being filled with Holy Spirit would not be a act where God enters human heart.
But rather an act where everlasting fire bursts into great flames in human heart.
Have to pray and think about this. :)
:thumbsup:
good related reading; (brother eby is a good friend of Tentmaker and Gary)
J. Preston Eby writes;
God all in all-- this will be the grand conclusion of the great drama of the world's history and of Christ's redemption. There will come a day - the glory is such we can form no conception of it, the mystery is so deep we cannot realize it - when the Son shall deliver up the Kingdom that God gave Him and which He won with His own blood and established and perfected from the throne of His glory. "He shall deliver up the Kingdom unto the Father ... that God may be all in all."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/all-in-all.htm#God
Have a great day!
HP,
I don't have the answer. But I have a few questions/thoughts that may be an answer to some :-)
Flesh is sinful.
What if there would be no influence of the HS on earth. Would everybody turn into massmurderers?
In other words does HS retrain sins in the world?
wow, WW , good questions , and is it the Holy Spirit that has Babylon restrained till it fails , those demonic , unclean and hateful birds penned up ?
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
:HeartThrob:
:cloud9: My :2c: He dropped the same thing into my spirit one day. I was shocked, in part because I had such a dramatic life changing "born again" experience, and asked Him how this could be if He was already there?
He is the measure of faith given to all men to receive Him, and the light of ALL MEN that come into the world.
Receive does not mean, as in He's not there, it means to receive Him as THEIR Lord. He put Adam (mankind also) to sleep, but you cannot find where He woke him up........UNTIL.......awake and shake off the dust and CHRIST will give you light.
Light is wisdom, the wisdom from the Spirit. Light comes from fire, and the small ember of faith given into the heart of men, becomes "larger" as we are "awakened". This is why the first "act" of the HS is to let us know we are accepted in the Beloved. That awakening is OUR witness of HIS acceptance, because He FIRST loved us. Our awakening lets us perceive it. Until then we sit in darkness; darkness is ignorance, ie. not His wisdom.
This radically changed how I talk to people that have not been "awakened" obviously, and brought an awareness of Him being in them, to the forefront of my mind and dealings with others. Seeing Him in all men, also changed my understanding of, "He appears to those that LOOK for Him." And it explains why He said when I was in prison, you didn't visit Me. Don't imagine a whole lot of Christians go to prison. :winkgrin:
Blessings....
great Thoughts Card ! :thumbsup: you helped me remember some of them things
two places the Lord speaks in the NT witness Holy Spirit and good things being the same in meaning for us /adam who are awakened by His presence /Light
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 05:46:50 PM
This is why the first "act" of the HS is to let us know we are accepted in the Beloved.
I believe one of the "first acts" of the Holy Spirit is to reveal to us with conviction that we need Christ, not that we already have Him. I personally wasn't comforted first by the Holy Spirit, I was (almost "traumatically") convicted that I was lost and in need of salvation.
Quote from: jabcat on June 05, 2011, 07:09:41 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 05:46:50 PM
This is why the first "act" of the HS is to let us know we are accepted in the Beloved.
I believe one of the "first acts" of the Holy Spirit is to reveal to us with conviction that we need Christ, not that we already have Him. I personally wasn't comforted first by the Holy Spirit, I was (almost "traumatically") convicted that I was lost and in need of salvation.
I so agree with this James Amen!! exact experience ! same here Bro :HeartThrob:
awesome :icon_flower:
I don't agree that the HS is in everyone yet.
But I do believe that [the unrevealed] Christ is in everyone, from Adam to the present.
That is the meaning of, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Quote from: jabcat on June 05, 2011, 07:09:41 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 05:46:50 PM
This is why the first "act" of the HS is to let us know we are accepted in the Beloved.
I believe one of the "first acts" of the Holy Spirit is to reveal to us with conviction that we need Christ, not that we already have Him. I personally wasn't comforted first by the Holy Spirit, I was (almost "traumatically") convicted that I was lost and in need of salvation.
:cloud9: Yes, oviously, but I was talking about once "awakened", not "pre-awakened". I know it's a touchy subject....but to me it was the HS defining the actual "mechanics" of what ACTUALLY happened to me, when I had the experience, not what everyone told me it was.
There's a world of difference between the phrases "born again" and "born from above". My :2c:
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 10:54:46 PM
I don't agree that the HS is in everyone yet.
But I do believe that [the unrevealed] Christ is in everyone, from Adam to the present.
That is the meaning of, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
:cloud9: From my point of view, that's what I'm saying too Molly, because I see Christ and the HS as one and the same.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 06, 2011, 12:26:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 10:54:46 PM
I don't agree that the HS is in everyone yet.
But I do believe that [the unrevealed] Christ is in everyone, from Adam to the present.
That is the meaning of, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
:cloud9: From my point of view, that's what I'm saying too Molly, because I see Christ and the HS as one and the same.
I see it more as two potentials of the same thing.
You know how lightning rises from the ground to meet the bolt in the air? The ground has to have the electrical charge as well as the air to get one lightning bolt. I see Christ in us and the HS in the same way, where one rises to meet the other, and the flow is complete.
But not too many get hit by lightning in their lifetime.
:cloud9: No, I really didn't know lighting rises from the ground to meet the one in the air......cool!
Now, the charges on the ground have been building as well, itching to
make their move. When the electric charge from the cloud (normally
negative ions) make it within 100 yards or so from the ground, all the
positive ions that have been growing for a long time, think it's 'Go
Time', and launch up from the ground toward the path illuminated by the
ionized air. When the connection is made, there is a violent release of
pent-up electricity (that can match or even exceed the temperature of
the Sun), and in a split second, multiple flashes and 'return strokes'
go back and forth up that established channel (sometimes you can see it
flicker), until the charges have been released enough for that ionized
air-path to once again fall below the threshold for electrification. One
other thing, when the air column along this path has been ionized,
there's a loud sonic boom caused by its quick collapse, which is often
loud: Thunder.
http://www.cbs3springfield.com/weather/interact/faqs/7253131.html
:cloud9: PS. With that principle in mind, once again deep calls unto deep....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 06, 2011, 12:50:45 AM
:cloud9: PS. With that principle in mind, once again deep calls unto deep....
Exactly. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 06, 2011, 12:26:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 10:54:46 PM
I don't agree that the HS is in everyone yet.
But I do believe that [the unrevealed] Christ is in everyone, from Adam to the present.
That is the meaning of, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
:cloud9: From my point of view, that's what I'm saying too Molly, because I see Christ and the HS as one and the same.
I do find the "light in every man" type verses compelling. But assume it's true that Christ is already in every man (which currently I don't
fully believe to be right now). How do you see Rev. 3:20 being reconciled? "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me." Also, I've been gone today and I haven't read back through the whole thread, but I really do hope/believe you're both still saying (and believing) that a person still needs to be saved, spiritually reborn from above as Jesus said. Because otherwise, I strongly believe we're doing others a dis-service, who might otherwise be more open and willing to accept that they need to believe on Jesus for their salvation - rather than the (what I believe to be grave error) "Inclusion" message. If the former is the case, we probably don't have a huge separation here, maybe more of a "degrees of understanding" rather than "basic/foundational doctrine". Blessings.
Quotethey need to believe on Jesus for their salvation
Yes, of course, I believe this.
We can't get from here to there without him.
Good, amen! We don't need to just "turn over a new leaf" or "decide in our mind/will to do better". We need Him to visit us with a Divine Visitation and renew us from the inside out. (vs. the Inclusion message, "having a form of godliness but denying the POWER! thereof").
Amen again. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2011, 05:11:55 AM
Good, amen! We don't need to just "turn over a new leaf" or "change our mind". We need Him to visit us with a Divine Visitation and renew us from the inside out. (vs. the Inclusion message, "having a form of godliness but denying the POWER! thereof").
Amen again. :thumbsup:
I'm not sure what 'inclusion message' is but we have to really want him [open the door], and we can't really want him unless the Father draws us, so it's really an exclusion message, unless you understand the plan for the ages.
Now you got me going - Amen! again! So right on.
(Inclusion is Carleton Pearson [and some others, including UR'ers] that say "I'm OK, you're OK - Methodist or Muslim, come on in, we'll have a big time together. We're all headed to heaven anyway, don't worry about it, we're all brothers and sisters, blah, blah, blah").
"Marvel not when I say you must be born again". - Jesus
Quote from: hopingpriest on June 04, 2011, 10:24:04 PM
What do you think?
Is He in everyone? I mean everyone?
Could it be that when Holy Spirit was given to diciples in pentecost, it was actually given to whole humankind, to everyone?
Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit, but are not aware of that they do?
I feel in my heart that that might be true.
Church is there to help people to become aware of that god allready is with them?
You are mistaken, Luke writes concerning the Ministry of John the Baptist that:
"It is he who will go as a forerunner before him and the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for Lord" (Luke 1:17). The Virgin Mary is told that "[the]
Holy Spirit will come upon you and
the power of the Most High will overshadowed you" (Luke 1:35). And concerning the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit the risen Jesus predicts that the disciples are to wait in Jerusalem where they "shall receive
power when the
Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). In these three Lukan passages we observe the interplay of the concepts of "power" and "spirit" precisely as found in the Old Testament.
This Hebrew concept is further seen in the famous passage where the apostle Paul burst out in praise to God. He does this by quoting from Elijah 40:13:
"Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and unfathomable His ways! [Now his Old Testament quotation]
For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?" (Rom.11:33-34)
But when we compare his source in Isaiah we note that Paul has changed it slightly. Isaiah actually wrote,
"Who has directed the spirit of the Lord, or as His counselor has informed him?"What we see here is a typical Hebrew understanding:
To have the mind of the Lord is to be directed by the Spirit. There are many New Testament examples of this interplay between "mind" and "spirit." In Philippians 2, Paul wants the Christian to be "of the same mind," which is to be "united in spirit, intent on one purpose"(v.2). On a personal level, how may I know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit? The answer is when I have the mind of God, the attitude that He has, the values that his word and espouses and above all the truth which it teaches!
Another passage of interest in this vein is 1 Corinthians 2:10-12.
1Co 2:10
these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who [Greek neuter "which"] is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. Here
"the spirit of the man which is in him" is paralleled with
"the Spirit of God" which is from God. It is quite clear that a person's spirit is not a separate person from himself, but is rather his/her own mind and inner thoughts. Just so, "the Spirit of God" refers to God's inner and personal centre, His mind and word, even His self-consciousness.
Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = WordIt is quite evident that in the apostle's mind to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct our lives. This is simply to say that in John chapters 14 to 16, "the Spirit" that will come to help the apostles will be the post- resurrection revelation of Christ's message directed by the risen Christ to the world through the apostles.
The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3).
I do not see this as given to the whole of humankind at this time.... Just something to think about! :wink:
Paul
John1:3;
"All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made."
Colossians 1:17;
And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
If these Scriptures are true than the Holy Spirit is in everyone or we would not consist.
1 Corinthians 8:6;
yet we have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all things exist.
Romans 11:36; For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:
Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Here are some good articles on this:
From 'With" into "In"
One of the responses to our discussion of Papa's touch goes as follows:
Hi Baxter,
I was wondering what do you base your statement ~"the Holy Spirit is in the little girl"? The little girl who has never heard of Jesus and this can be applied to adults who have do not believe/worship Jesus. Would it not be more accurate to state that the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Jesus)is WITH the girl but not yet indwelling her? As I understand it, the Holy Spirit indwells believers and unites us to Christ. And the Holy Spirit is with everyone else drawing us all to Jesus. (This comes from Dr. Gary Deddo, your classmate)
We are connected to Jesus now in the same way we WERE connected to Adam. So that is why Jesus says that "whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me." I'd appreciate your comments. Thanks.
To my mind there are several critical issues here that need to be addressed, although who is competent to speak about such things. The first concerns the basis for saying that the Holy Spirit is 'in' not merely 'with' the abused little girl who allegedly has never heard of Jesus? Presumably there is an invisible line somewhere that the Holy Spirit cannot cross without our faith. The second has to do with the question, does the Holy Spirit unite us 'to' Christ? The third concerns the statement that 'we are connected to Jesus now in the same way we were connected to Adam'?
The fundamental issue here is the identity of Jesus Christ, for his very identity is the light of the world, and as such speaks volumes about the Father and the Spirit and their relationship with us, among thousands of other things. While we cannot possibly begin to cover all that needs to be said here, I will give you what seems to me to be the three foundational realities about Jesus. First, Jesus is the Father's one and only and eternal Son, who for us and for our salvation 'came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man,' as the Creed says. Second, Jesus is the only one who is anointed with the Holy Spirit as an abiding reality and without measure. Third, Jesus Christ is the Creator and sustainer of all things. As the apostles testify, he is the One in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are constantly upheld (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16ff; Hebrews 1:1-3, and see earlier blog). Contrary to what many of us have heard all our lives, we do not make Jesus part of our world; he has made us a part of his.
In the deistic West, however, if we ever think of Christ as the Creator (and I wonder how many of you have actually heard a sermon on Christ as the Creator) we think of Jesus as the 'source' of our existence, but not as the one who 'constantly sustains' us. It is as though Jesus created us and gave us something akin to a life-battery, then he stepped back leaving us to live like an Eveready Energizer Bunny. Creation, in this framework, is like a soap bubble blown into the wind by a child. We could say that the child created the soap bubble, but once the bubble detaches from the wand there is no ongoing relationship with the wand or the child. It is this disconnect, which seems to be etched into the Western mind, that is the problem. In such a scenario Jesus creates us, gives us the life-battery, and then steps back, and he could theoretically die and we would all keep on going and going until our life-battery runs out of power. What happens to Jesus after creation and the giving of the life-battery is of no necessary consequence to us or to creation. Such a notion is a far cry from the New Testament which contends that Jesus is not only the source of our existence by way of a past gift (the life-battery), but he is the ongoing source and sustainer of our continued existence, so much so that if he withdrew himself from us, the human race and indeed the cosmos would vanish in an instant.
Note carefully these words from John Calvin's Commentary on the Gospel of John, as he comments on John 1:4 and the phrase, "in him was life."
So far, he has taught us that all things were created by the Word of God. He now likewise attributes to Him the preservation of what had been created; as if he were saying that in the creation of the world His power did not simply suddenly appear only to pass away, but that it is visible in the permanence of the stable and settled order of nature–just as Heb. 1.3 says that He upholds all things by the Word or command of His power. Moreover, this life can either be referred at large to inanimate creatures, which do live in their own way though they lack feeling, or expounded only of the animate. It matters little which you choose, for the simple meaning is that the Word of God was not only the fount of life to all creation, so that those which had not yet existed began to be, but that His life-giving power makes them remain in their state. For did not His continued inspiration quicken the world, whatsoever flourishes would without doubt immediately decay or be reduced to nothing. In short, what Paul ascribes to God, that in Him we have our being and move and live (Acts 17.28), John declares to be accomplished by the blessing of the Word. It is God, therefore, who gives us life; but He does so by the eternal Word. (John Calvin, The Gospel According to John, translated by T. H. L. Parker, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company), 1988, pp. 10-11).
Following the apostles, Calvin is at pains to point out that the creation and the continued existence of all things are completely dependent upon the Son of God. What then are we to make of the fact that it was this Son who became human? What happened to his relationship with his Father and the Spirit? Did he break ties with his Father and the Holy Spirit when he became a human being? Did he dissolve his relationship with the human race and all creation in his incarnation? Of course not.
This is a point of capital importance. For already in the very identity of Jesus Christ—the Father's eternal Son, the One anointed in the Holy Spirit, and the Creator, in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are sustained—we are speaking of One in whom the Father, the Holy Spirit, the human race, and all creation are not only connected, but are together in relationship. For St. Athanasius, the deepest problem of the fall of Adam was the way it threatened this relationship, not the relationship between Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit, but the relationship between Jesus, the human race and all creation. As Athanasius said, creation was on the road to ruin and was lapsing back into non-being.
Into this perilous situation the Father's Son became incarnate through the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary to do the very thing that was impossible for us—reestablish relationship. Through his incarnate life, death, resurrection and ascension Jesus lived out his own sonship as a human being inside the fallen world of Adam, therein reestablishing real relationship with fallen humanity. As he lived out his own sonship, and as he reestablished relationship with fallen humanity, he was at the same time including us in his own relationship with his Father and the Holy Spirit.
Astonishingly, Jesus intentionally used, as T. F. Torrance says, our sin against him as the way to establish deeper relationship with us. It was not the Father or the Holy Spirit who rejected, cursed and abandoned Jesus; it was the human race. We condemned and damned him. As we cursed Jesus and damned him, and as he deliberately accepted our condemnation and bore our scorn, he was entering into the deepest possible relationship with us in our sin and odious brokenness. In suffering from us, in bearing our bitter rejection, in dying in the arms of our judgment and condemnation, Jesus met us at our absolute worst.
Such a relationship, it seems to me, stretches any notion of 'with' into 'in.' Even on a purely human level it is difficult to imagine a person being 'with' another person and not being 'in' them in some sense. It is even more unimaginable when we are speaking of the One in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are sustained becoming a human being and being 'with' us to the degree that he became what we are, and deliberately, astonishingly and graciously bore our scorn and rejection.
What is left outside of this relationship? Did Jesus leave something of himself behind? Is there something of us, some particle of sin, some dimension of our brokenness that was withheld as we crucified him? The cross, or better yet, Jesus on the cross, accepting and bearing our bizarre judgment and its bitterness is nothing short of Jesus making contact with and overcoming the original sin, thus reestablishing or recreating his relationship with us and his rightful place as the One in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are sustained. Put another way, as Jesus allowed the human race to place our sin upon him, to reject and curse him, he was translating 'with' into 'in.'
Now, it must be emphasized that as Jesus became what we are, and as he lived out his own sonship and anointing inside our fallen world, and as he deliberately accepted being condemned and damned by us, he was bringing into relationship everything that he is as the Father's Son, and the anointed One, with everything that we are in our fallen brokenness. In Jesus Christ, the incarnate, crucified, resurrected and ascended Son of the Father and the anointed One, the very life of the Trinity has set up shop 'in' the very core of our fallen human existence. Adoption is not a theory. It is the real world—even if we cannot see it or believe it, yet. For when Jesus accepted us as we are and bore our bitter judgment, he was not alone—he brought his Father and the Holy Spirit with him. As St. Irenaeus said, in Jesus' life and death the Holy Spirit "accustomed" himself "to dwell in the human race" (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume 1 (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Erdmann's Publishing Company, reprinted 1987), III.17, 1, see also III.20.3).
Jesus is thus the One in whom his Father, the Holy Spirit, the fallen human race and all creation are not only related, but rightly related, and rightly related in the most profound way imaginable. "In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you" (John 14:20)
Is the abused little girl, who has theoretically never heard of Jesus, included in Jesus? Of course. Is she included in Jesus' relationship with his Father? Of course. Is she included in Jesus' anointing in the Holy Spirit? Of course. What is the basis for saying that the Holy Spirit is 'in' not merely 'with' the abused little girl? Jesus Christ. For he has included her (and all of us), and Jesus never travels alone. So unless we are prepared to posit some kind of breach between Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit, or that some level of our humanity and its fallenness was absent as we damned Jesus, then he has included the fallen world in his relationship with his Father, and in his relationship with the Holy Spirit. 'With' simply does not have the depth to describe such a relationship.
Now, is it accurate to speak of the Holy Spirit as uniting us to Christ? My answer is 'Yes,' as long as we understand that this union happened in Jesus' life and death. The Holy Spirit united us with Christ, or better, united Christ with us, or better yet, worked in and through Jesus to reestablish his union with us in Jesus' own existence. To be sure, the union was the fruit of the Spirit, but it happened in Jesus, not at some subsequent stage in us and in our history, and certainly not by our faith. Where a given person is in his or her understanding Christ's union with us is another matter, but our blindness or enlightenment has nothing to do with the fact of Christ's relationship and union with us in the Spirit.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an external event, for in Jesus, the Spirit has made his way into the living room of our blind souls. It is in the very center of our created and fallen being that the Holy Spirit witnesses to our innermost beings and begins to free us to live in the inconceivable world of our adoption in Christ. For while it is impossible for us to push the weeds of our fallen minds to the side, and thus to believe in anything other than what we perceive through our blindness, Jesus has penetrated our darkness and brought the Spirit of truth with him. The Holy Spirit is not a spectator, watching from the outside, giving abstract and external instructions that he hopes that we will apply to our lives. He meets us in the corridors of our fallen souls, bearing witness to the 'unbelievable' world of Jesus and his Father. He works within us to help us see through our own blindness to know who God is in Christ and who we are in him, and in this way to help us take baby steps against our own judgment and alienation.
Inside, at the core of our being, the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits (See Romans 8:16.) that it is true, that we are sons and daughters of the Father himself in Jesus, crying the exclusive words of Jesus, "Abba! Father!" within us. "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'" (Galatians 4:4.).
On the basis of Jesus Christ, and in the truth of what he has done for and with and to the human race in his own incarnate life, death, resurrection and ascension, we proclaim to every person that they have been adopted, included in Jesus' relationship with his Father and in his relationship with the Holy Spirit. And in Jesus' name we call them to walk in the light of Jesus, promising joy and peace in believing, and warning of continued misery in unbelief. We pray to the Holy Spirit, who in Jesus, has accustomed himself to dwell in the fallen human race, to reveal Jesus 'in' every person so that they may know the truth and be set free by it.
The Holy Spirit united Jesus with us and us with Jesus in Jesus' life, death, resurrection and ascension. And in Jesus' life the Spirit accustomed himself to dwell in us. Both, I take to be living realities established in the grace of the Triune God prior to our faith and repentance. Within us the Spirit works to bring us to hear Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, to see and encounter Jesus himself within our own brokenness, so that we can begin to discern good from evil, light from darkness, life from death, and heaven from hell. In such encounters we are summoned and freed to take baby steps of faith in Jesus and his world, and to turn from our own darkness. Such baby steps give more room for the Spirit's life and power to operate within us. It frees us to relate to and to participate in Jesus' anointing in the Holy Spirit. It is all an ongoing relational reality, which began in Jesus' incarnation and continues throughout our lives, and one would assume throughout eternity.
As to whether "we are connected to Jesus now in the same way we were connected to Adam" let me say that Jesus is the Father's eternal son, not a creature like Adam, and Jesus is the one in and through and by and for whom all things were created, and are sustained and reconciled. According to Paul, Adam was a mere type, a foreshadowing of the One to come (see Romans 5:14). As a creature, not the creator and sustainer of all things, Adam's connection with the human race, whatever it was, falls under the heading of this foreshadowing, and points ahead of itself to the real connection in Jesus Christ. So, no we are not connected to Jesus in the same way we were connected to Adam. Adam's connection hinted at the real union coming in the incarnate and crucified Creator-Son and anointed One.
And the follow up:
Identity and Experience
In the plethora of responses to my last blog I could not help but notice that one of you cited a few verses, but did not explicitly counter the Christological affirmations. In citing these verses are you suggesting that Jesus is not the Father's eternal Son incarnate, and not the only one anointed in the Holy Spirit without measure, and not the Creator in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are constantly sustained, and not the reconciler of his creation? Do these verses disprove the central affirmations of the Christian faith? As far as I am concerned these affirmations were non-negotiable for the early Church, and functioned as the heart of the apostolic and patristic hermeneutic, or mind. The Christian community was and is called to take 'every thought captive to the obedience of Christ' (See 2Corintians 10:5) and to "see to it that no one takes us captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made full..." (Colossians 2:8ff).
The first order of business in taking these commands seriously is to answer the question, who is Jesus Christ? The second is to rethink everything we thought we knew about God, about creation, about ourselves and history, the past, present and future in the light of Jesus. He is the truth. The ministry of Perichoresis is committed to these two callings, faltering as we may be.
Or, in citing these verses are you wrestling with the biblical witness? Are you asking, given who Jesus is—the Father's Son, the anointed One, and the Creator, sustainer and reconciler of all things, and as such the One who has included the human race in his own life—what are 'we' to make of verses which, as they are translated in certain translations, seem to contradict the fundamental affirmations? This, I take, to be what you were asking, and rightly so. It is a biblical issue. Any self-respecting bible scholar has to wrestle with how the meaning of a specific verse fits into the larger meaning or 'scope,' as Athanasius called it, of holy scripture. First, we ask the Holy Spirit to give us the eyes and perspective of Jesus himself. Second, we need to go back to the early Church fathers, for I suspect they have already answered all of these issues, as the Arians in particular were not shy about highlighting 'problematic' verses. Third, it is always a good idea to study the original languages, and then read several different translations.
For example, 1Corinthians 2:14 in the NASB reads, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised." This happens to be a verse that I use all the time. Your quoted translation says, "the man without the Spirit." This is a great example of how the translator's own theology figures into the translation, and an affirmation of the need to read different translations. Another example is Ephesians 4:17ff. "This is say therefore and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart." I think this is a great translation, with the exception of the word 'excluded,' which should be 'alienated.' Paul is saying, because of the futility of their minds and because of their darkened understanding, they are alienated from the life of God, which is shared with them in Jesus. Bringing their confusion into Jesus' relationship with them poisons their participation in the life of God. So don't be like the pagans, give up your own vision, and let Jesus teach you about his Father, receive His love and live.
Luke 11:13, "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven "give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" The context here is about the goodness of the Father, and thus the admonition to ask and seek and knock, and not just once, but as an ongoing relationship rooted in Jesus' Father's goodwill toward us. If we, being evil, know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more does my Father (the fountain of all goodness,) know how to give the Holy Spirit himself, to those who ask Him? Apparently, in citing this verse, you are troubled by the word 'ask,' as if to assume that unless we ask Jesus' Father we will not have the Holy Spirit. Yet without Jesus sharing himself and particularly his parrhesia (freedom, courage, boldness, assurance) with us, and without the Holy Spirit bearing witness in our innermost beings that we are children of the Father in Jesus, we would never come out of the bushes and asks the Father for anything. This is about relationship. Pentecost is first. In and through Jesus, the Father has poured out the Holy Spirit upon all flesh. As my friend Ken Blue says, our response to the Holy Spirit is to say, 'thank you Holy Spirit, we will have more please.' This is also our ongoing response to the Father and all his gifts in Jesus, and to Jesus and all that he is sharing with us. How thrilled the Father is when we takes sides with Jesus and the Spirit against our own darkened notions, and thus dare to say 'thank you' and ask for more.
Romans 8. The argument in the first part of Romans 8 parallels Galatians 3 and revolves around the question as to which way are we going to live, according to the flesh (kata sarka), or according to the Spirit (kata pneuma). The way of the flesh leads to death and misery. The way of the Spirit leads to life and peace. Paul is assuming that the Spirit is at work through Jesus in the Romans, and in us. The question is not who has the Spirit of Christ or who doesn't, but which way are we going to live. Eugene Peterson, in The Message, has a take that is worth pursuing. "But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourself than of him. Anyone, of course, who has not welcomed this invisible but clearly present God, the Spirit of Christ, won't know what we are talking about. But for you who welcome him, in whom he dwells—even though you still experience all the limitations of sin—you yourself experience life on God's terms."
Likewise Peterson's translation of Jude 17-19 is worth careful reflection. "But remember, dear friends, that the apostles of our Master, Jesus Christ, told us this would happen: 'In the last days there will be people who don't take these things seriously anymore. They'll treat them like a joke, and make a religion of their own whims and lusts.' These are the ones who split churches, thinking only of themselves. There's nothing to them, no sign of the Spirit!"
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Jesus was baptized in the Spirit at the river Jordan did that mean that he did not have the Spirit prior to that moment? The coming of the Holy Spirit to Jesus at Jordan was not a movement from absence to presence, but from presence to another kind of presence. It is relational, not spatial. I think we are safe to begin here and see where this leads in wrestling with this verse.
Here are a few other thoughts about the Holy Spirit. First, it strikes me that we need to think about the Holy Spirit's relationship in and with us relationally. He accustomed himself to dwell in us through Jesus, and that means through Jesus' suffering from our bizarre blindness. So the Spirit knows how to relate to us, the real us, the broken us, but being so profoundly blind we cannot cope with the sheer weight of his goodness and beauty. So he walks with us relationally, giving us space to make fools of ourselves, all the while addressing us in ways that reach us, and thus calling us to relate to Him as a person, and to give ourselves to participate in Jesus' life—step by step, moment by moment. Second, most of what I hear or read about the Holy Spirit is all but completely devoid of real relation to Jesus himself. It is as if Jesus died and did his part, and then went back to heaven. Then, on the basis of Jesus' death, the Holy Spirit comes to do his. But apparently they don't talk much, so the Holy Spirit has his own thing happening with us, instead of taking of the things of Jesus and relating them to us. There seems to be a remarkable devaluing of the fact that Jesus is the anointed one. He and he alone is anointed with the Holy Spirit, and without measure. Because we seem to have missed this, many seem to crave an anointing in the Spirit independent of Jesus' relationship with them, and seem to be craving something from the Spirit altogether different from Jesus' own life. As if it would ever cross the Holy Spirit's mind to operate independently of Jesus or to give us a gift other than Jesus himself. The gift given is Jesus—and all is and has in his relationship with his Father and the Holy Spirit. When you see this Jesus and see yourself included, you don't stop at a second or third blessing. Be bold. Live with expectation. Ask for more.
For serious study of the Bible, I recommend the New American Standard Bible, the Jerusalem Bible, the King James, the New English Bible, The Message, and J. B. Phillips' translation.
One person said, "He will not have an answer for those verses as most Perichoresis messages are taken from passages in the books of John, Ephesians, Colossians and a handful of other books. It seems the whole perichoresis message is built on a select few passages and many other 'difficult' passages are just never mentioned or ignored."
You speak as an authority on my references, but what you said I take as a high compliment. John, Ephesians and Colossians are reliable references. But you forgot Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Hebrews and 1John and Romans, and Irenaeus, Athanasius, Hilary and the Cappadocian fathers, Calvin, Luther, Thomas Erskine, John MacLeod Campbell, George MacDonald, Karl Barth, C. S. Lewis, J. B. Torrance and T. F. Torrance. If these brothers have an issue with me then I should be hanged. Either way, it is always wise, as Proffessor James Torrance used to say, to read widely.
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2011, 09:50:42 AM
Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:
Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Darkness is ignorance and lack of intimate understanding.
God speaks and dwells in the thick darkness.
Exodus 14:19-21 (Amplified Bible)
19 And the Angel of God Who went before the host of Israel moved and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before them and stood behind them,
20 Coming between the host of Egypt and the host of Israel. It was a cloud and darkness to the Egyptians, but it gave light by night to the Israelites; and the one host did not come near the other all night.
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night and made the sea dry land; and the waters were divided.
Exodus 20:20-22 (Amplified Bible)
20 And Moses said to the people, Fear not; for God has come to prove you, so that the reverential fear of Him may be before you, that you may not sin.
21 And the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the Lord said to Moses, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.
Deuteronomy 5:22-24 (Amplified Bible)
22 These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He spoke not again [added no more]. He wrote them on two tables of stone and gave them to me [Moses].
23 And when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders;
24 And you said, Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire; we have this day seen that God speaks with man and man still lives.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 06, 2011, 06:12:02 AM
John1:3;
"All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made."
Colossians 1:17;
And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
If these Scriptures are true than the Holy Spirit is in everyone or we would not consist.
The Holy spirit has no obligation to dwell in a unclean vessel.
The Spirit is there because of grace
Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Quote from: jabcat on June 05, 2011, 07:58:08 AM
Maybe there's a distinction between 'on' and 'in"?
There will come a time when "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea." When every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord. We are not yet there. God is not yet All in All. That appears to occur when all enemies are under His feet and Jesus hands things over to the Father. Satan is still active, has not been bound or restored. Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock...hear my voice, open the door, I will COME IN..."
As I understand, the church's responsibility is much, but includes proclaiming Jesus is the Savior of the world, and "whoever calls on the name of the Lord WILL BE saved". The jailer asked, "sirs, what must I do to BE saved?" They told him to believe upon Jesus. Jesus said "marvel not when I say you must be born again" (spiritually reborn from above). Many have a head knowledge. The Holy Spirit convicts and calls individuals into a "heart experience", through faith God gives to believe on Jesus as Savior. Not all now. The ecclesia now, the rest later - each in his own order (I Cor. 15:23).
I think this is the closest to the truth, especially the poured on, vs poured in or dwelling in the temple, given the variety of scriptures that speak of this. :thumbsup:
God is Omnipresent.
He fills the universe in all its parts and is present everywhere at once.
Jeremiah 23:23,24;
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord.
Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
I had somewhat of a revelation the other day making dinner. I passed it by my fiance who agreed with the concept...
Choosing to be born into the Sonship of God and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within is no more an option than choosing who you're born to in this world. You can't choose your parents/family any more than you can choose to belong to God and have the Holy Spirit living within you. The bible already says that it was HE who chose US, so in order for the HS not to be living in us isn't something we have the option to choose.
"It is finished!" - Jesus.
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2011, 09:50:42 AM
Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:
Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
The verse is about Hebrew expressions/idoms
Good eye=generous (nature)
Bad eye=stingy (nature)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 06, 2011, 06:43:07 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 06, 2011, 09:50:42 AM
Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:
Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
The verse is about Hebrew expressions/idoms
Good eye=generous (nature)
Bad eye=stingy (nature)
Hi WW , so are you saying that the good eye is Christ nature
and the bad eye is carnal nature ?
My dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy over who gets the good stuff , lol :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 06, 2011, 06:49:23 PMHi WW , so are you saying that the good eye is Christ nature
and the bad eye is carnal nature ?
That's for the enlighted ones to decide. :idea2:
I just mentioned it because I think it gives greater understanding when we read with the mind of Jew that lived 2000 years ago.
QuoteMy dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy over who gets the good stuff , lol :HeartThrob:
That means you have a bad eye. You can't expect starved dogs to have good manners :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 06, 2011, 07:02:37 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 06, 2011, 06:49:23 PM
Hi WW , so are you saying that the good eye is Christ nature
and the bad eye is carnal nature ?
That's for the enlighted ones to decide. :idea2:
I just mentioned it because I think it gives greater understanding when we read with the mind of Jew that lived 200 years ago.
You mean 2000 yrs right LOL although there are some Jewish minds 200 yrs ago that may still have that same mind of 2000 years ago :laughing7:
QuoteMy dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy over who gets the good stuff , lol :HeartThrob:
That means you have a bad eye. You can't expect starved dogs to have good manners :laughing7:
[/quote] lol does it make me bad that they dont share ? :mshock: LOL
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 06, 2011, 08:39:33 PM
You mean 2000 yrs right
Yep. Editted my post.
Quote from: RRQuote from: WWQuote from: RRMy dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy over who gets the good stuff , lol :HeartThrob:
That means you have a bad eye. You can't expect starved dogs to have good manners :laughing7:
lol does it make me bad that they dont share ?
You are so stingy you don't buy enough food for them. That's why they fight and you have a bad eye :laughing7:
Doggy of a good eyed owner ===> (http://www.roflzoo.com/pics/072010/puppy-has-a-bone-big.jpg)
LOL , good one Bro T :laughing7:
:HeartThrob:
Backing up a bit from the bone -
I asked earlier about reconciling "Behold I stand at the door and knock..open the door, I will come in..." with Jesus and or Holy Spirit already being present in everyone.
I thought this AM about Jesus saying He must go away so the Holy Spirit could COME...
Maybe someone has some really solid Biblical evidence, but right now I believe the Holy Spirit is definitely present, but that only those that are spiritually reborn are indwelled. I could be wrong. Again, the "lights every man" verse seems the most otherwise intrigueing to me, but right now I lean more toward 'not' in everyone, than 'is'. :2c:
(Couldn't Holy Spirit be on people or situations, even direct what God chooses, and still not reside IN everyone? Just a thought.)
Quote from: jabcat on June 06, 2011, 04:51:06 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 06, 2011, 12:26:23 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 10:54:46 PM
I don't agree that the HS is in everyone yet.
But I do believe that [the unrevealed] Christ is in everyone, from Adam to the present.
That is the meaning of, Christ in you, the hope of glory.
:cloud9: From my point of view, that's what I'm saying too Molly, because I see Christ and the HS as one and the same.
I do find the "light in every man" type verses compelling. But assume it's true that Christ is already in every man (which currently I don't fully believe to be right now). How do you see Rev. 3:20 being reconciled? "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me." Also, I've been gone today and I haven't read back through the whole thread, but I really do hope/believe you're both still saying (and believing) that a person still needs to be saved, spiritually reborn from above as Jesus said. Because otherwise, I strongly believe we're doing others a dis-service, who might otherwise be more open and willing to accept that they need to believe on Jesus for their salvation - rather than the (what I believe to be grave error) "Inclusion" message. If the former is the case, we probably don't have a huge separation here, maybe more of a "degrees of understanding" rather than "basic/foundational doctrine". Blessings.
:cloud9: Once again, for me, it's Him giving me things in a "reverse engineering" mindset. I was not convicted of sin, I TURNED within myself to Him and to cry out to God. At that moment, I bowed the knee. Once I started to read the next day when I woke up aware I was different, THEN I was convicted of sin, from reading the Word for the first time.
Four days later, under an incredible anointing, fasting, I went to a Baptist church. Everyone in there proclaimed to "be saved", but I knew by the Spirit on me, at least 4 weren't. Astonished, I asked my friend who took me, how this could be, since the Baptists taught salvation. By "their" definition of mouthing some words, they were "saved". By the Spirit's, they had not turned to Him in their heart, and there was still darkness upon the face of the waters.
As for what "open the door and knock" means, the phrase comes from a root word meaning to OPEN THE EYES. Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be opened. It is synonymous with rending the veil. If you think about it from a Hebrew mindset, our eyelids are a type of covering, and so as a "veil".
Like most everything in there, it has been used to conform to a doctrine of men's understandings of it, rather than the understanding given by the Spirit who gives by revealing thru the EXPERIENCE of the written Word. Which is how we are to KNOW, IF we go on to follow the Lord. This is how you can be resolute about what it says, because you have already EXPERIENCED what it DOES, and been given understanding as a by-product. Many of the things He has done with me, I could not define, until He gave me WHERE in the Word the experience WAS contained.
In the beginning of our walk, the Word defines or "fleshes out" the Spirit, so we can learn to recognize Him. Later as we learn to know Him BY HIS SPIRIT, the Spirit defines or "fleshes out" the Word. My :2c:
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. (NASB)
Phil 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The Holy Spirit is already at work in everyone... It's just a process of coming to fruition.
Hi Syndicated. I believe your verses :), but I don't see the absolute connection between the verses and the conclusion. I personally believe most won't even be called in this lifetime, much less already indwelled with Holy Spirit. Also, I'm questioning working 'on' vs. working 'in'...
You know, it's an interesting topic, but probably as long as we proclaim Jesus is the Savior and encourage people to call on Him for salvation (Romans 10:13, whoever calls will be saved), that's the most important things. :) James.
whoops, I meant to put this here as an example of people without the indwelling spirit.
Isaiah 28:15
15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
2 Timothy 4:4
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
2 Tim 3
For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power
OK, great, now I understand your post better. I was missing something alright :laughing7:
Good points. I was thinking about it earlier today - Holy Spirit and/or Jesus dwelled in Hitler, Stalin, Dahmer, etc., etc. - what, dormant, sleeping, just waiting? I just can't see it. Again, I believe when someone is spiritually reborn as Jesus described, then they are indwelt. I'm open for good evidence, but not so much with speculation. :) Shoot, I have all kinds of ideas - many of them wrong! :NewB1:
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2011, 03:58:38 AM
Hi Syndicated. I believe your verses :), but I don't see the absolute connection between the verses and the conclusion. I personally believe most won't even be called in this lifetime, much less already indwelled with Holy Spirit. Also, I'm questioning working 'on' vs. working 'in'...
You know, it's an interesting topic, but probably as long as we proclaim Jesus is the Savior and encourage people to call on Him for salvation (Romans 10:13, whoever calls will be saved), that's the most important things. :) James.
! But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But
if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you
shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off,
as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:38,39
Just so you are understanding what I am thinking, Jab. This mystery hidden from ages and generations--Christ in you, the hope of glory.--I read this as Christ being already in us from the beginning--in Adam, in Abel, in Abraham, in Isaac, in Jacob--and that's the mystery that is being revealed by Paul to the saints. Christ is already within you, waiting to be unveiled. This is the idea of the seed sown in dishonor [this earthly tent] and raised in glory [as the body of Christ];sown in weakness, raised in power. Paul tells us what that seed is--
Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
I could see it, maybe, if it's as you say, 'the saints' - those predestined. However, I'm not sure that Christ has to be already in us, to then become revealed in us. The scripture says if we open the door, He COMES in...then He's revealed?
What do you think of the above verses, how they fit for you? For me, they go a long ways towards settling the topic - FOR ME - i.e., that those who don't know Christ don't have the Spirit, and vice versa. How could those 2 scrips be "trumped" by any others? Wouldn't other scrips need to be seen in light of these 2? They seem quite plain to me. :2c:
Yes, definitely I think it is true for the saints.
Let's look at some other verses.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
--Rev 3:21
Isn't that a strange way of putting it? to sit with me in my throne. Both are occupying the same place at the same time? How does that happen? Is he saying we will be equals?
We are waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God. Manifestation means the revelation of something that is already there but hidden.
"manifestation"
G602
ἀποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
The HS comes to us--Jesus tells the disciples to go and wait in Jerusalem until the HS comes to them.
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
--Acts 1
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
--John 16:13
The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
--John 14:17
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
--John 14:26
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
--1 Tim 4:1
Amen. Only by His grace and mercy.
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2011, 04:47:59 AM
! But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:38,39
Clear. But when we die the spirit returns where it came from. That verse isn't just about believers. Could it be that there is some sort of confusion over the spirit we all have and the extra spirit we recieve when born again....?????
maybe so, good point. breath, breath of life? not sure...will take a little sorting it out
maybe more than that...could there be a "spirit of man" and a Spirit of God? Both given by God - one at birth, the other at New Birth?
If so my (original) question is; are we comparing 'spirit verses' when we shouldn't because the verses are about different types of spirits.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 07, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
If so my (original) question is; are we comparing 'spirit verses' when we shouldn't because the verses are about different types of spirits.
Not your getting it. :bigGrin:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--John 1:12
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
--Romans 8:14
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
--Romans 8:16
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
--Gal 3:26
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
--1John 3:2
Good verses all, but this one
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2011, 09:04:04 AM
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
--Romans 8:16
shows two distinct spirits, doesn't it? His Spirit and 'our' spirit. (also, there is mentioned an evil spirit, a lying spirit...probably others as well)
Again, perhaps one at birth, the Other at new birth.
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2011, 09:12:40 AM
Good verses all, but this one
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2011, 09:04:04 AM
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
--Romans 8:16
shows two distinct spirits, doesn't it? His Spirit and 'our' spirit. (also, there is mentioned an evil spirit, a lying spirit...probably others as well)
Again, perhaps one at birth, the Other at new birth.
1There is therefore now no condemnation
to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but
ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory
which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
--Rom 8
1. The Seven Spirits of God More than this, John's book is a message "from the seven Spirits who are before His throne." Those familiar with the Tabernacle of Moses and its symbolism will understand that John was speaking of the seven lamps on the Lampstand, or Candlestick (menorah), which was situated in front of the Ark of the Covenant where the presence of God rested. The mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant represented the throne of God, and the Lampstand stood before (in front of) His throne, separated only by the veil. The seven Spirits of God are listed in Isaiah 11:2,
2 And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him, the spiri t of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and strength, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.The Spirit of the Lord is depicted by the center post on the Lampstand, from which the other six lamps extended. The six branches are:
| 1. The Spirit of Wisdom | 4. The Spirit of Strength | | 2. The Spirit of Understanding | 5. The Spirit of Knowledge | | 3. The Spirit of Counsel | 6. The Spirit of the Fear of the Lord |
In order for any man to have the fullness of the Spirit, he must possess all seven of these Spirits. Isaiah's prophecy (above) was directed at "the stem of Jesse," who was King David's father. Jesus was called the Son of David, and the prophecy was therefore messianic in that it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. He possessed the fullness of these seven Spirits and is the pattern and example of what God intends to do with all men. Like the flame on the wick of a lamp, God intends to put His Spirit upon all flesh, so that these material bodies might manifest the Seven Spirits of God, not in heaven but in earth. In the last day, when the divine plan is complete, His glory will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14).
Jesus Christ Himself manifested all of the seven Spirits of God in His body. As believers, we are His body as well. Thus, the seven Spirits of God are in the seven churches—that is, in those who overcome, for the implication is clear that not all believers are overcomers. The seven churches are also portrayed as the seven stars in Christ's hand toward the end of the first chapter of Revelation. |
QuoteThe mercy seat on the Ark of the Covenant represented the throne of God, and the Lampstand stood before (in front of) His throne, separated only by the veil.
And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
--2 Cor 3
Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
--Mat 13
I go with Cardinal on this one. She beautifully describes what I have seen during the last few years. Darkness in the scriptures describes ignorance and light describes truth. Jesus is the Light of the cosmos that enlightens every man born into the world. It's mostly our western dualist thinking that can't grasp a lot of the things Paul is saying in this writings. After all, everyone lives, moves and has their being in God. When Jesus died, He took everything, being created in Him, into death and raised it into the new creation. Then He sent the Holy Spirit to lead us all into this truth. As long as we don't see this, we are in darkness and death - for knowing Father and Son in the Spirit (John 17) is to have the Divine Life manifested in the eons. Thank God, He has been poured out on all flesh. All will come to see and believe, and declare His Lordship.
It seems most problems come from how we understand the word indwelling. Here's another anointed writing by John Gavazzonie on this:
Indwelling
By John Gavazzoni
Many have raised protests to the growing number of voices affirming Christ's presence in every man. The protests have ranged from almost vehement reactionary diatribes to disagreement of the nobler sort. To disagree while maintaining the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, acknowledging the need for all of us to continue to be open to adjustment by the Spirit of Truth maintains brotherly relationship, a characteristic of the believer who has his priorities in proper order.
As one of the voices affirming what brother J. Preston Eby has called, "the Seed of Christ in every man," it has occurred to me just recently that clarifying a distinction between the presence of Christ on one hand, and Him, as it were, making Himself at home where He is, is vitally important.
I would think anyone who is theologically astute at all, would maintain, at least on the basis of the indisputable truth of God's omnipresence, that God must be present within all His creation, and Christ, in God, also so present. But it is one thing for Christ to be present; it is another thing for Christ to choose when to be salvifically active where He is present.
Though that thesis ought to, and will, I'm sure, raise all kinds of questions, I believe it's a quite fundamental truth, since for instance, we have many situations recorded in the gospels where there was a time-lag between Christ being present, and Christ---if I may put it this way---making His move.
Some time certainly elapsed, for instance, between the time Jesus arrived at the scene where friends and loved ones of Lazarus were grieving over his death, and that glorious moment when the Lord called his friend forth from his entombment.
So likewise, it is one thing for Christ to be present in a man or woman before He begins, by regenerating grace, to existentially make that person a member in particular of that body which is the habitation of God in the Spirit. In the way of illustration, there was always a difference when our family moved from one house to another, from going into the new house, and making that new house our home.
"Christ in" is fulfilled by Christ "dwelling in." Got that? "Dwell." That's the word from which we get "dwelling." "In" is one thing; "Dwelling in" goes deeper. The same essential thought is conveyed by the word, "abide." We abide in our abode. Christ abides in us as He makes us His abode from within, from within, where He has always been.
God always works from the inside out, and there's no person or particle of matter that He first needs to get into, before beginning to work from the inside out. No particle of matter could exist without Christ within as the glue holding holding it together. He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe in its macrocosm and microcosm.
Of course, In Christ, we (plural/corporately) are the temple of God, but this Reality is conveyed to us by Christ in us. God has, in Christ, already raised us up and made our humanity His glorious abode through the glorification of Jesus. Christ is the abode of God, and we are the many rooms within that abode. Now we are in the process of coming to know by Christ in us, what we are in Christ.
All that Christ has done and is doing relates to Him making His home in our hearts by faith, as Paul so wonderfully explains. The Father abides in Christ who is abiding in us, making us, with Him, the "place" of God's habitation. Now that's not hard to understand, is it?
:cloud9: Amen, beautiful writing......He dwells in thick darkness, and secret pavillions (same word as tabernacles). Until this is made life in us, we cannot partake of the feast of TABERNACLES, for like Peter, we deem them unclean. My :2c: Blessings....
PS. Good to see you back AbbasChild! It's been a long time :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2011, 04:04:51 AM
OK, great, now I understand your post better. I was missing something alright :laughing7:
Good points. I was thinking about it earlier today - Holy Spirit and/or Jesus dwelled in Hitler, Stalin, Dahmer, etc., etc. - what, dormant, sleeping, just waiting? I just can't see it. Again, I believe when someone is spiritually reborn as Jesus described, then they are indwelt. I'm open for good evidence, but not so much with speculation. :) Shoot, I have all kinds of ideas - many of them wrong! :NewB1:
Do not be affraid to voice your opinion Jabcat. What you say makes scriptural sense, with multiple scriptures showing that the Spirit come to them that believe in Jesus, regardless if others don't like it.
Also folks be careful that you are NOT ascribing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil, for that is blasphemy and God does not take kindly to it.
:cloud9: To add a few more :2c:.....
There were 2 trees in the MIDST of the garden, just as there was a golden candlestick and a table of shewbread in the midst of the tabernacle. The WHOLE garden was His, we are His planting, just as people including strangers (not Israelites, read "unsaved" here), women and children (not of the priesthood, those that give suck and still need the milk of the Word, read ALL in the outer court here), were part of the outer court.
The outer court includes those "saved" that do not have the baptism in the HG/fire. They are the ones that labored all day, who are disgruntled over the ones that came in in the last hour and received the SAME WAGES. They also are only capable of "giving suck", ie. feeding the milk of the Word, not the meat.
The outer court represents the whole WORLD of people, and even everything that has breath (His Spirit), which is as the waters below (everything under) the firmament (heaven), the WORD (that is Spirit) MADE FLESH (or visible, making it below the firmament). See, if we be of the spiritual priesthood (which is by right of the baptism in the HG/fire), we are not of the waters below anymore, but are seated with Him in heavenly (firmament) places.
As far as God is concerned, there are 2 classes of people: priests and not priests. The NOT priests category, includes Israelites (the "saved") AND "strangers" (the "unsaved", ie. I have sheep ye know not of).
The priests category, are the ones that have thru baptism of the SPIRIT (fire), been made to be one with the Head. One is as the head, the other is the body. One ministers to, the other needs ministering to. This is the reason the wheat and the tares are raised up together; they are of the SAME BODY. And so we read, to LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
It is also as the Rock that was smitten, to let the SPIRIT come out, and so we have Jesus saying to the Pharisees (the priesthood who CARRIED the anointing), that if they didn't praise Him the ROCKS would cry out. Seen many rocks crying out lately? :laughing7: Blessings.....
Quote from: CardinalAs far as God is concerned, there are 2 classes of people: priests and not priests. The NOT priests category, includes Israelites (the "saved") AND "strangers" (the "unsaved", ie. I have sheep ye know not of).
Cardinal what is the difference then between the non priest saved and the unsaved?
Will only the priests be present in the first resurrection?
Will only the priests rule and reign with Christ in the next age?
I was going to ask you cardinal, "who are the rocks?"
You don't have to agree with this, but this just came to me now,
That since the pharisses refused Jesus, that He would raise up the rocks to praise Him. The rocks being the corner stones fitting together on top of the chief cornerstone, our Lord and saviour.
Paul says the Jews rejected Him, but the gentiles have embraced Him and praise His name.
Thanks Tank.
Then Jesus was speaking nonsense when He said "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN? I don't think so, and though I've asked twice, I haven't seen anyone specifically address that verse.
I think all sides of this discussion, including me, need to be very careful that we're not making assumptions based on our own thoughts. Maybe I am in fact doing so, but there are several scriptures that seem VERY clear (3 of which I've posted) that I personally don't see any other scriptures "trumping" or negating them- IMO, others must be taken in context of those clear, specific scriptures and not otherwise extrapolated.
(But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:38,39
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev. 3:20)
IMO = NOT already indwelt. If so, please carefully and explicitly explain these verses. I can see God present as in "the spark of life", the spirit of man He has given all men Ecc. 12:7, etc. But IMO, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit moving ON, directing, even entering INTO a person or situation to perform a specific purpose, is different than Holy Spirit and Jesus sitting around dormant in a mass murderer [or anyone not saved]. We can have all kinds of opinions and use all kinds of "vaguely supportive" scriptures, but please "do something" with these explicit ones - then maybe I can understand and accept a different position a little better. But how can these scriptures be any clearer? Thanks, James.
oh, i remembered something, sorry
:HeartThrob:
blessings :)
Quote from: JabThen Jesus was speaking nonsense when He said "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN? I don't think so, and though I've asked twice, I haven't seen anyone specifically address that verse.
Cardinal answered it here:
Quote from: CardinalAs for what "open the door and knock" means, the phrase comes from a root word meaning to OPEN THE EYES. Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be opened. It is synonymous with rending the veil. If you think about it from a Hebrew mindset, our eyelids are a type of covering, and so as a "veil".
Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in.--Psa 24:9
"ancient"H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956;
properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s),
ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.
"doors"H6607
פּתח
pethach
peh'-thakh
From H6605;
an opening (literally), that is, door (gate) or entrance way: - door, entering (in), entrance (-ry), gate, opening, place.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.--Gen 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kzgVzg8nVk :bgdance: :bgdance:
1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.
--Eze 44
So one who is in darkness put a lid on top of their cup, preventing the spirit of God to pour into them, they hardened their hearts, Jesus was not pleased . But those who are open receive Him.
10 virgins, 5 had oil in their lamps, the others did not have any oil and asked them that had oil "give us your oil, for our lamps have gone out"
The ones without the oil could not meet with the groom.
Quote from: Molly on June 07, 2011, 10:23:01 PM
Quote from: JabThen Jesus was speaking nonsense when He said "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN? I don't think so, and though I've asked twice, I haven't seen anyone specifically address that verse.
Cardinal answered it here:
Quote from: CardinalAs for what "open the door and knock" means, the phrase comes from a root word meaning to OPEN THE EYES. Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be opened. It is synonymous with rending the veil. If you think about it from a Hebrew mindset, our eyelids are a type of covering, and so as a "veil".
I don't see that here;
SHOULD-BE-UP-OPENING
should-be-opening
thn
tEn
G3588
t_ Acc Sg f
THE
thuran
G2374
n_ Acc Sg f
DOOR
eiseleusomai
G1525
vi Fut midD 1 Sg
I-SHALL-BE-INTO-COMING I-shall-be-enteringpros
G4314
Prep
TOWARDauton
G846
pp Acc Sg m
him
and what about the other 2 verses?
Also, here's an example of what I'm talking about, with other verses not being as clearly "supportive" of a stance as these 3 I'm asking about seem to be.
Quote from: AbbasChild on June 07, 2011, 02:30:06 PM
our western dualist thinking that can't grasp a lot of the things Paul is saying in this writings. After all, everyone lives, moves and has their being in God.
That's not what that verse actually says. It says 'we', not "everyone". It
could mean everyone, but again, that's not what it clearly says. So taking into account the 3 verses I'm asking about, that seem to (clearly, to me) say not everyone is indwelt, then I don't this particular verse "outweighing" the other 3. IMO, it's at best "secondarily supportive" of that position, and doesn't "do away with" the other 3. :2c:
Also, again, I believe He is the Substance, He acts ON anything/anyone He chooses to suit His purposes - the Author and Finisher, and in Him WE move and have our being. But is that the same as "with Him IN everyone, we have our being"? I think there could be a subtle but critical difference.
Quote from: Jaband what about the other 2 verses?
What other two verses?
We see ancient gates closed from time past. We see the eastern entrance to the paradise of God guarded and closed. We see the east entrance to the Temple closed to anyone but the LORD. Who's inside? Who's outside? It's all talking about the same thing, isn't it?
Song of Solomon 4:12
A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
These 2 -
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:38,39
well, I guess I've probably about said enough.
As long as we're proclaiming Jesus, savior of the world and encouraging people to "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved", that's the bottom line. :)
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2011, 12:29:40 AM
These 2 -
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:38,39
Do you think the Spirit of Christ=the Holy Spirit? Or is it something different?
Also what do you think about that seed of Abraham that God gave the promise to? Do you think that is just a figure of speech? or something real?
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Good questions.
The 2nd scripture seems to at least connect the 2, i.e., "the name of Jesus"/"receive the Holy Spirit". I think in essence they're the same, because Christ said He [physically] must go away so the Holy Spirit could come. (I know Tony, my "[physically]" is a translation.) :laughing7:
As for the 1st question, right now I believe 'the seed' is spiritual language (giving a picture to understand) with a literal application (it really did and is occuring). :2c: If I went with more literal, I'd then think it was more like a promise, guarantee, and/or process. But again, good questions and I'm supposing, so it might be but ain't necessarily gospel.
On the other hand lol...
If I took it to the MOST literal interpretation I can think of, then I'd suggest it's more like "the Holy Spirit of promise" - but given the scriptures I've given about many not having the Spirit, and Jesus COMING in vs. already indwelling, then I'd think in that scenario, it would only apply to the predestined, the ecclesia in this age; then the rest in the plan for the ages, as each is visited by the Holy Spirit and bow and confess - each in their own order.
:cloud9: Jab, I don't study the Greek as the authoritative language, but rather as a substitute for the Hebrew, a substitute which from what I've found, is inadequate to convey the Hebrew mindset which is more rich in thought and shows the connections between spiritual and natural more plainly. My :2c:
And so, I go "backwards" to the Hebrew to find the original thought that the Greek badly mangles or simply leaves out altogether. When you do this, what usually happens is, light is shed on a whole bunch of other Greek translated scriptures, that made no sense before, or the Hebrew reveals a depth not known before.
PS. I don't view the Greek as being wrong per se, more like the Hebrew originals just had some "Greek dirt" thrown on them, obscuring their light somewhat. :laughing7: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 08, 2011, 02:41:11 AM
:cloud9: Jab, I don't study the Greek as the authoritative language, but rather as a substitute for the Hebrew, a substitute which from what I've found, is inadequate to convey the Hebrew mindset which is more rich in thought and shows the connections between spiritual and natural more plainly. My :2c:
(for me) it's sure several NT books are originally written in Hebrew. (Matthew is 100% certain)But I think some books are originally written in Greek.
OTOH I think translations can be inspired too. Maybe gementria is a little useful tool here.
QuotePS. I don't view the Greek as being wrong per se, more like the Hebrew originals just had some "Greek dirt" thrown on them, obscuring their light somewhat. :laughing7: :HeartThrob:
Maybe even more that people seek proof in Greek mythology.
Sheol is the Hebrew word. In the NT it's called Hades. That word/concept is as pagan as things can get. Still it's a good translation IF people don't start to use what Greek philosophers say about that word.
:2c:
Hi Everybody,
Just wanted to say a proper hello! It really has been some time, Cardinal. I still pop in here from time to time to read what's going on but rarely get involved in any discussions anymore. I was really interessted in what was going on in this thread however. The only problem is still the different time zones. So when I lock on here, you are all probably sleeping. :sigh:
By the way. The greek word for 'receive' - lambano - means to accept, receive or take to one self. Nothing is implied that the One being received is absent. Paul prays in Ephesians (Chapter 3 I think) that Christ would dwell in the believers hearts. That doesn't mean He was absent.
Concerning Romans 8:9, this speaks about living after the flesh vs. the Spirit, as the topic of conversion has been covered already. In this context, Jonathan Mittchell's ultra literal translation brings out the meaning far better:
Yet you folks are not constantly existing within flesh (you are not in flesh), but rather within spirit, since indeed (if so be that) God's Spirit is continuously housing Itself (making His abode; residing; dwelling; -- by idiom: living together as husband and wife) within you folks. Yet if anyone is not continuously having (does not habitually or progressively hold) Christ's Spirit, this one is not His (is not habitually existing of Him or pertaining to Him).
His or Him, doesn't refer to Christ here - as some translations make it out to be - but to the Spirit.
VIEW#1
Summary:
The differences are more linguistic than theological.
With recent Scripture translations, "Spirit" replaces "Ghost" in most instances. Some of this came about because words don't always hold their meanings. In the days of Shakespeare or King James, ~ghost~ meant the living essence of a person. Looking back, we see that "breath" or "soul" were often used as synonyms of "ghost." During these times, ~spirit~ normally meant the essence of a departed person or a demonic or paranormal apparition.
Read the article (http://www.adishakti.org/_/holy_spirit_or_holy_ghost.htm)
VIEW #2
Summary what is translated as Holy Spirit comes from 3 different Greek words.
Read the article. It's to long to quote and to many T-words. (http://www.isawthelightministries.com/power.html)
Use THIS (http://www.isawthelightministries.com/tools.html) tool to find the diffrent Greek words.
In the second box type: holy ghost
Click perform search and press the "Perform Search" button.
Unless the site uses very corrupt or editted manuscripts there is really a difference in the spelling.
If those differences have theological consequences is another point of discussion.
Few snippets that give the view of the website owner.
....
But does the Scriptural context and accounts show that there is a difference between the two? First of all, we know the Holy Spirit (God's essence) existed in the Old Testament. And it existed in the New Testament BEFORE Christ died, resurrected and ascended into Heaven. But notice that Jesus said He would send something else!
....
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. :13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. :14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. :15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. :16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (another comforter, another manifestition of GODs Power.
....
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (Jesus is the Comforter)
....
Jesus had to die, rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven BEFORE this part of God (that we will call "Holy Ghost" for clarification difference between what already existed before that event) could be manifested unto mankind. John 7:39 says this Holy Ghost was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified. Then in Acts we find that the Holy Ghost is poured out on mankind. The essence of God or the Holy Spirit has always manifested itself to (or led) mankind, Adam, Abramham, Moses, Noah, etc. Only after Jesus ascended back into Heaven could He send the Comforter, the Power of the Holy Ghost. At his death, resurrection and ascension, there was much Power accomplished. These events changed history. We are now able to receive POWER and authority within our own bodies! We can now have God dwelling within us. God within us is not just something to sniff at! It's POWER! It's AUTHORITY! It's not the same Holy Spirit that always existed, it's the Power of the Resurrected and Ascended Spirit of Jesus Christ! It's Jesus inside of You! Jesus inside of you never existed before! Jesus has always existed in one form or another but now He has been glorified beyond what He already was. He had work to do and He accomplished it. Now He gives that Power to us! The separation between mankind and God is gone, the veil is ripped apart, we can enter in the Holy of Holies if we accept this power!
So yes there is a difference between the Holy Spirit that always moved upon men's lives and led Moses and Noah. They did not have the resurrected and ascended Power of Jesus!
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
....
So the Holy Spirit/Ghost before and after the resurrection of Jesus is not the same.
Just read the article because I think even if you not agree with some parts, it gives a few good insights that are useful in this discussion.
In conclusion, the Holy Spirit is the Father. The Holy Ghost is Jesus. It is not correctly translated in every opportunity as far as I know, but in many cases it is correctly translated as Holy Ghost.
May the Force be with you. God Bless,
Elder Timothy Zimmerman
UPDATE MAY 2011 i have been praying for more clarification on this subject and GOD has given it to me! Every thing written above is still correct. Here's the new edification/clarification: The Holy Spirit is GOD the GIVER. IT is HIMSELF, whether it be the Father or the Son. It is HIM outside the human vessel.
The Holy Ghost is still GOD but it is GOD IN US. It is the GIFT from GOD to us. It is GOD in us, As Jesus is GOD in us. It is the gift to the vessel/us, it is receiving the Power/GOD from on High.
Per Gary A. - Spirit and Ghost are translated from the same word.
This quote is from martincisneros on 4/15/2009 - "I genuinely don't believe that the Outpouring upon all flesh of God's Spirit is very far away. A translation or two will have St. Peter saying in Acts chapter 2 that "this is the beginning of that" which was spoken by the prophet Joel, that in the last days I'll pour out My Spirit upon all flesh. And yet, so far we've been seeing only the stage of Scripture described by James in the book of Acts as the restoration of David's fallen Tabernacle. The promise of the restoration of David's fallen Tabernacle does go on to say that it's so that the rest of mankind will come to Him. But thus far, what we've been seeing is a first fruits company of ministry teams and of the fields that have been ripe for harvest. We're not very far away from His Outpouring upon all flesh."
Quote from: jabcat on June 08, 2011, 02:14:57 PMPer Gary A. - Spirit and Ghost are translated from the same word.
Depending on the manuscript...
I've already seen 2 Greek versions with different words. As you are likely aware TCB uses different English words. The reason for that
may be the manuscript.
John 14:16
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.
[another] "Comforter"
G3875
παράκλητος
paraklētos
par-ak'-lay-tos
An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.
Para [3844] means alongside, near, next to, beside
Kletos[2822] means called.
How would we take this? The One called by God to be beside you--Parakletos--
But the Comforter [parakletos], which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26
MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn.2:1
Your Back's Covered/ The High Calling
by George Cladis
The apostle Paul wrote in his biblical letter to the Philippians, if then there is any encouragement in Christ, any consolation from love, any sharing in the Spirit, any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete: be of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. He then encouraged them to look to Jesus who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness (Phil. 2:1-2, 6-7 NRSV).
The Greek word Paul chose for encouragement in this Scripture passage was paraclesis. The related term, paraclete, stems from ancient Greek military vocabulary. Greek soldiers went into battle paired up. Standing back to back, sword and shield in hand, they fought off enemy troops. The person standing behind was a "wing man" whom the other relied on to watch his backside! The Greeks called this trusted soldier and friend the paraclete.
Drawing on this word's rich heritage, Paul calls our attention to Christ, the paraclete for us. Paul paints a compelling picture of Jesus, who could have come as a commanding general or unyielding tyrant, but who came instead to stand beside us—encourage and protect us—watching our backside, at the same time calling forth our best effort.
Paul waxed eloquent in his description of Jesus as Paraclete to also show us how we are to be with one another. Far too often we experience people who trip us up, sabotage our work, or block our advance. Sometimes we are victims of such behavior; sometimes we perpetuate it! Paul urged these new Christians to consider Jesus—the way he lived and the model he exhibited—as an alternative: Stand beside one another instead. Be of good courage and en-courage others. Let others shine; celebrate their good fortune and efforts. Be a resource to those around you in faith and vocation and guide them to a better way of living and working.
Imagine people learning to get along, work together, foster their best efforts, and serve one another. Too "pie in the sky"? Perhaps we will never experience it in its fullness. But paraclesis starts with you. What people in your life is God calling you to encourage? Is there someone in the office who needs a supportive word from you? Do your spouse or children experience you as commanding officer or one who protects and encourages?
Consider today specific ways God is calling you to be a paraclete, then act on them before the sun goes down.
http://www.thehighcalling.org/leadership/your-back%E2%80%99s-covered
:cloud9: John 1:1 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Outer court - In the beginning (firstfruits/which we are, is the same word here) was the Word
Inner court - and the Word was WITH God (God is with us, Emmanuel)
Holy of Holies - and the Word WAS God
Note that this is a process that begins with man (who is also the Word that is Spirit made flesh = the waters below the firmament), and ends with God.
Also, in the script I mentioned elsewhere (don't remember the thread) about the difference in HS and HG, if you read more of the text than I quoted, it says they were believers already, who didn't know there was such a thing as the HG they needed to receive. They already had the HS, but needed the HG, which was not available until He was glorified, because He had to die to accomplish it. Same Spirit, different manifestations thereof......my :2c:
4 There is but one body and but one Spirit, as also when you were called you had one and the same hope held out to you.
5 There is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 and one God and Father of all, who rules over all, acts through all, and dwells in all.
7 Yet to each of us individually grace was given, measured out with the munificence of Christ.
Quote from: CardinalAlso, in the script I mentioned elsewhere
Can you remember what scripture this was?
Quoteabout the difference in HS and HG, if you read more of the text than I quoted, it says they were believers already, who didn't know there was such a thing as the HG they needed to receive. They already had the HS, but needed the HG, which was not available until He was glorified, because He had to die to accomplish it. Same Spirit, different manifestations thereof......
Can you find that post?
Quote from: Molly on June 08, 2011, 04:32:45 PM
Quote from: CardinalAlso, in the script I mentioned elsewhere
Can you remember what scripture this was?
QuoteQuoteabout the difference in HS and HG, if you read more of the text than I quoted, it says they were believers already, who didn't know there was such a thing as the HG they needed to receive. They already had the HS, but needed the HG, which was not available until He was glorified, because He had to die to accomplish it. Same Spirit, different manifestations thereof......
Can you find that post?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/damned_9714.msg123282.html#msg123282
Thank you Cardinal/Beloved Servant/Abbaschild! I can't wait for the veil to be completely removed!!
OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?
As all will be saved; all are believers — they just don't know it yet!
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2011, 04:56:34 AM
OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?
yikes. Who said that?
That is clearly not true.
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
It appears to me, that anyone is saying that (maybe won't admit it) that says Jesus and the Holy Spirit is already in everyone. If not, how do the two views reconcile?
I think most people have a conscience [although I doubt Hitler did). So to the extent that people have a conscience I think you construe that to say their flesh has been impacted somehow by the Holy Spirit or by Christ. Paul says they are a law unto to themselves. But that doesn't mean they have the indwelling HS, clearly by all the passages we have read.
Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of
the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2011, 05:28:46 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2011, 05:12:21 AM
And it appears anyone is saying that (maybe won't admit it) that says Jesus and the Holy Spirit is already in everyone. If not, how do the two views reconcile?
I think most people have a conscience [although I doubt Hitler did). So to the extent that people have a conscience I think you construe that to say their flesh has been impacted somehow by the Holy Spirit or by Christ. Paul says they are a law unto to themselves. But that doesn't mean they have the indwelling HS, clearly by all the passages we have read.
Romans 2:14
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
amen Molly. thank you for your pertinent comment and i agree. i believe it's the distinction between being 'acted on' and being indwelt.
the thread is unlocked from its brief lock to clean it up. back on topic please, anything personal needs to go to pm plz. thanks.
I think that believing isn't what makes God give us salvation or the Spirit, as if it's a reward for believing. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free". When we believe the truth we are set free as far as we know and understand the truth. It's a bit of a mystery just what happens inside of a person when we believe. Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. It sounds to me like there isn't much difference in anyone in the sight of God, but some are freer than others and understand spiritial things more, like maybe farther down the road we all will eventually travel. Just my ideas and I hope they fit in.
thanks for your input bushy.
Very gently, IMO, there are clear scriptures that link believing to salvation. Here's one; Acts 16:31 "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.."
To an earlier comment (connected to the "everyone already has the Holy Spirit") "everyone's already a believer, they just don't know it yet"... how can that be true when there is such distinction made as follows? (Also, re: another comment, "not much difference in anyone in God's eyes"?)
Rom.15.31 that I may be delivered from the unbelievers in Judea, and that my service for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the saints,
1Cor.14.22 Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.
1Cor.14.23 If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1Cor.14.24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
2Cor.4.4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ..
2Cor.6.14 Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
2Cor.6.15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?
1Tim.5.8 If any one does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
I believe it's more accurate to say, all will be filled? All will be saved. All will believe. When God's righteousness covers the earth, every knee bows/every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord - when God becomes All in All. Yes, He's declared it, and it WILL happen. Maybe in God's mind and "time" it has already happened. But we live in THESE time constraints and with the realities of "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."
I need to continually pray/meditate upon, and have much room to grow and improve in the following; "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." 2 Tim. 2:15
Quote from: bushythe word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
This is a really interesting translation because here we see that when the believers hear the word they are united with it by faith. What is the Word? Christ. What is faith? Christ. So it's like two magnets coming together. They are attracting each other.
John 10:4
When he has brought all of his own sheep out, he goes on ahead of them. His sheep follow him because they know his voice.
To the question asked...........................................No, aye will stay,
ACVGen 6
3 And LORD said, My spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he also is flesh. Yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.
Everyone is a believer doesn't make any sense at all to me. What I was saying is that the truth is the truth whether we believe it or not, but it doesn't benefit us unless mixed with faith. Believing the truth brings life and not believing the truth is death. The Father has lots of kids and some need more discipline than others the same as a natural family to bring us all into line.
Personally I always believed all the bible stories but no way did that satisfy. When I finally believed the Truth deeper (called faith I guess) I was set free like the truth does. I think for me I had a hard time because it seemed like I had to make something happen or wait for God to do something to be saved but finally understood the truth when my eyes were opened and then of course I believed and was saved. But it was really all already done before I believed or understood anything. I think that what goes on inside of us is a pretty big mystery for the most part.
As far as recieving the Holy Spirit I think it comes with life. James 2:26 The body without the spirit is dead.
Quote from: BushyAs far as recieving the Holy Spirit I think it comes with life. James 2:26 The body without the spirit is dead.
I think that is spirit with a small 's'--as in the spirit of man-- not the Holy Spirit.
Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2011, 04:56:34 AM
OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?
I believe He was there pleading for Hitler to stop. He is the light that enlightens every man. (This includes Hitler.)
Just because someone uses the power of God to do evil, doesn't mean they have God in them.
If I build a television set, that doesn't make me into a television set, but my workmanship is upon it's design.
Job 12
9Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
10In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2011, 02:56:47 PM
I think that is spirit with a small 's'--as in the spirit of man-- not the Holy Spirit.
Hi Molly, I think so too but maybe it's both.
John 6:38 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
When we believe, the life we recieve is spiritial so it is the HS who gives that life. Like I keep saying, what goes on inside of us is pretty hard to know. The only thing important about understanding this is it affects how we look at other people, like are they lessers or are we equals all in the same boat?
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2011, 03:11:06 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 09, 2011, 04:56:34 AM
OK, so Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit was in Hitler as he brutally tortured and murdered thousands?
I believe He was there pleading for Hitler to stop. He is the light that enlightens every man. (This includes Hitler.)
"Pleading"? :thumbdown: :sigh: PLEADING?! I could not even reason with that thought!
Why not? :dontknow: Isn't that what our conscience does? Okay maybe pleading wasn't the right word to use then.
Telling him not to? Reasoning with him not to?
Quote from: lomarah on June 10, 2011, 01:21:03 AM
Why not? :dontknow: Isn't that what our conscience does? Okay maybe pleading wasn't the right word to use then.
Telling him not to? Reasoning with him not to?
Yeah it was the wrong word for me anyway :winkgrin: Also no I do not believe He told hitler not to, and He did not try to reason with Stalin, of Manson, or Saddam Hussien. To say that The God Creator would do either of those things, it would be admitting HE had made some error in any of those aforementioned human beings. But I fear I have ventured into one of the taboo thoughts.
OTOH if you read the OT you see God commands something. The Jews kept disobeying and God's grace time ran out. Then "suddenly" the Jews are at war. Likely during those wars Stalin like things happened.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 10, 2011, 03:19:05 AM
Also no I do not believe He told hitler not to, and He did not try to reason with Stalin, of Manson, or Saddam Hussien. To say that The God Creator would do either of those things, it would be admitting HE had made some error in any of those aforementioned human beings.
Parents also reason with their children. Not because they were wrong but to let their children overthink their own actions.
Thank you WW, that's exactly what I would've said. :)
:msealed:
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 09, 2011, 07:19:05 PM
Also no I do not believe He told hitler not to, and He did not try to reason with Stalin, of Manson, or Saddam Hussien. To say that The God Creator would do either of those things, it would be admitting HE had made some error in any of those aforementioned human beings.
"Parents also reason with their children. Not because they were wrong but to let their children overthink their own actions." WW
Lomarah "Thank you WW, that's exactly what I would've said. :)"
I dont see it that way. I have to believe God made Hitler and the others for the very purpose of what they did.
Mal 3:6 For I, Jehovah, change not; therefore ye, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.
Are you saying that " if or should" God had intervened, then history, like the Holocaust would not have happened, exed out of our history?
But I fear that I trend closely on the edge of a taboo subject. Sorry. :sigh:
I honestly have no idea Micah. I know that God does intervene in some places (look at much of the OT). But He also has an omnipotent plan for the ages. I believe that He did give us each the ability to choose between good and evil but that He is also working things according to His will. In the words of Rob Bell, "Free will and the omnipotence of God? Yep." It's sort of like the election/predestination vs. free will debate... I believe in both of those things, that they each work together simultaneously though my mind obviously can't comprehend it totally. I don't know. I certainly don't have it all figured out, this is just my present point of view.
And rosered I also believe this is a learning ground, but I believe it is a learning ground for every man and that we all do have a conscience and ability to choose between right and wrong. And yes Micah I do believe we are on taboo territory here. (Cue warning from Jab. lol!) :)
no warning :)
i've said over and over we can [carefully and artfully] talk about the concepts, the scriptures, how we believe God works, etc. (preferably scripturally based) in many ways without just getting into a "catch-phrase spitting contest". I believe one could talk about it "all day long" and never "wave the red flags". That's where the battles seem to come in. :2c:
I mean, I can say "I believe God is in control. I don't believe He's ever been surprised by anything, ever had to resort to a Plan B, or has lost control of His creation. I believe He fully knew what Adam and Eve were going to do, intended for man to walk the path he's generally walked, as He Himself "lowered us into this realm, so we could have an experience of evil" (scrip ref. available). That He had prepared the sacrifice and solution, before any of it occurred. That He works ALL things according to the counsel of His will. But that He also requires us to make choices within parameters He sets, forks in the road He provides, and that's how we learn and grow up into Him - as He helps us, forgives us, trust in Him, lean on Him, teaches us to look to Him to both have started and to complete our salvation" (scrip ref. available). Whether or not you agree with all this, couldn't we discuss it further without getting into a fight about specific terms? I think so, at least for awhile :laughing7:. Anyway, carry on, I'm out.
oops, one more thing lol
I mean, you (anyone) could argue "I believe in free will". I could counter with, "there's no truly free will. God is all sovereign." Or vice versa, and back and forth. At that point we may not even know what the other is really talking about, how that actually plays out with how we believe God works and what the scriptures mean. And IMO, those are the things we need to be talking about. To me, it's similar to "Baptists are bad". "No Baptists are good". "Baptists are...." What do the scriptures say, how do we understand it, how does that affect our walk, our response to others, our view of relationship with God, etc., etc., etc.?
Alright, shut up James and go mow your yard.
I will try everytime to stay out of a discussion that undermines the sovereignty of God..The Creator. It is my believe and stance beyond any doubt that God, Jehovah, is complete knowledge of ALL that His creation performs. Be that good or be that not good/evil. Mankind has "choices" and situations and circumstances are presented to an individual, if that soul is without the knowledge of The Blood of Jesus Christ, His resurrection from death and the cross, then that individual, that soul, could and will commit the hiedious of crimes.
Why do I reason this Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
God will present the situation to a soul, knowing that that vessel will preform ill will to someone. God will present a situation to a soul, knowing that that vessel will preform a good turn. We, as His creation make "choices" but it is not of our "free will," for it is God's Will that fashions the circumstances that ignites all of our moves. I love Father, He has said HE WILL, and that aint my will.
If one has a need to be greater that his Creator, go for it, I will remain being formed and moulded. Peace and Love Through Jesus
You almost did it micah. You were able to discuss it fine except for,
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 11, 2011, 04:20:47 AM
it is not of our "free will,"
as Maxwell Smart on "Get Smart" used to say, "missed it by
that much". :laughing7:
Peace, brother. :bigGrin:
Haha thanks for holding back the warning James. ;)
Like I said I certainly don't have it all figured out so I won't say anymore. Still seeing through the glass darkly!
Ho Hum and well :sigh:
Quote from: lomarah on June 11, 2011, 04:42:57 AM
Haha thanks for holding back the warning James. ;)
Like I said I certainly don't have it all figured out so I won't say anymore. Still seeing through the glass darkly!
absolutely. i believe we need to be careful who we listen to/what we take in, and careful what we "lock" into...sometimes people say things that "sound good" or "feel good", but really require some digging, "studying to show ourself approved".
I'm personally pretty malleable on many subjects, but there's a few of them, :shout: !
:grin:
The Paraclete has been with me since I was a baby. He first saved me at only a few weeks old, he pulled me out of a lake at 5, he pulled me from under the wheels of a car at 7, he pulled me out of a semi frozen pond at 8, he saved my life again when I was 20, and on and on.
I'm glad to finally know who he is. Yes, the Holy Ghost is a 'he.' He has the most beautiful male voice you have ever heard. He is a close and trusted friend. I hope to see him some day.
John 16:7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
:cloud9: Me, too. :thumbsup: I first heard His voice when I was about 8. I just didn't know who He was, but it was nearly audible it was so "loud". And He has saved me numerous times before I knew Him.
Quote from: Cardinal on June 12, 2011, 06:32:45 AM
:cloud9: Me, too. :thumbsup: I first heard His voice when I was about 8. I just didn't know who He was, but it was nearly audible it was so "loud". And He has saved me numerous times before I knew Him.
Yes, loud, and so extremely authoritative that it is almost impossible to refuse what he is telling you to do. The voice comes from behind as though he is hovering over you. And, ps, he is always right. lol
:cloud9: He IS hovering over us. I asked Him in the beginning of my walk, what the "chill bumps" were from everytime He quickened or spoke something to me. He replied, "It's My shadow."
And it STILL happens to me when He speaks. The only thing that has changed is the perceived "loudness" of it. I became "alarmed" when some time into my walk, it seemed like the sound had changed, it was not as "loud" and it worried me. I asked Him if I had somehow "moved" myself farther away from Him with unconfessed sin, or what? This is what He told me. The closer we get to Him, the "softer" He can speak, until it's the quiet still voice.
Before I got into the Word and read it, I had no idea that I had experienced the "unction" of the Spirit, my whole life. One really memorable example, was when I was 21 and working in a factory between college semesters during the summer. It was an old run down building with unlevel concrete floors, and some electrician had cut off a 440 volt cable coming up out of the floor. At some point, someone had turned it back ON.
It was raining that day (thru the roof in places, too) and I had to push some metal pieces right past the growing puddle, and finally thru the growing puddle. But it wasn't until a co-worker asked me to adjust the position of a huge commercial floor fan that the "fireworks" literally began. I did as she asked and bumped that LIVE 440 volt cable with the fan. Because I was turned back looking at her for directions on placement, I was spared the exposion that shot out from the fried fan.
When the electricians came to see what the problem was, they found out the cut off cable was LIVE. Now the amazing part is, that it was the 70's and a shoe called a "wedge" with hard wavy rubber 3" inch platforms were "in". They were NOT a work shoe (we all wore tennis shoes to work), and I would have never worn them to work, BUT that day I had the "unction" from the Spirit so strong, that I put them on, took them off, 5 times before I gave in and left them on. I kept coming out of the house without them, and the Spirit I didn't "know" yet, would send me back in to put them on.
Had I not listened, finally, I would have been electrocuted. The tall rubber soles put me up above the puddle surrounding the live cable, and protected me from the fan exploding when it connected with the electricity. God is amazing, to Him be all the glory. Blessings.....
1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him [Y'shû‛âh] my salvation.
--Psa 91
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2011, 06:22:53 AM
The Paraclete has been with me since I was a baby. He first saved me at only a few weeks old, he pulled me out of a lake at 5, he pulled me from under the wheels of a car at 7, he pulled me out of a semi frozen pond at 8, he saved my life again when I was 20, and on and on.
I'm glad to finally know who he is. Yes, the Holy Ghost is a 'he.' He has the most beautiful male voice you have ever heard. He is a close and trusted friend. I hope to see him some day.
John 16:7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Where were your parents at the lake and who was driving the car? It is good to know that we have a purpose. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: hopingpriest on June 04, 2011, 10:24:04 PM
What do you think?
Is He in everyone? I mean everyone?
Could it be that when Holy Spirit was given to diciples in pentecost, it was actually given to whole humankind, to everyone?
Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit, but are not aware of that they do?
I feel in my heart that that might be true.
Church is there to help people to become aware of that god allready is with them?
[/size]
I have zero doubt that the Holy Spirit was given to ALL THINGS at some point around just after Jesus rose...
It is the same question as " did all Mankind know that Adam brought death to all" until Christ Came and Made things NEW???? !!!!
Even Hitler had the Spirit, It was just used the same way that the Spirit was used when God sent His Spirit over the first born of Eygpt to kill all the first born that did not follow the rules to live, Laws...
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 11, 2011, 04:20:47 AM
I will try everytime to stay out of a discussion that undermines the sovereignty of God..The Creator. It is my believe and stance beyond any doubt that God, Jehovah, is complete knowledge of ALL that His creation performs. Be that good or be that not good/evil. Mankind has "choices" and situations and circumstances are presented to an individual, if that soul is without the knowledge of The Blood of Jesus Christ, His resurrection from death and the cross, then that individual, that soul, could and will commit the hiedious of crimes.
Why do I reason this Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
God will present the situation to a soul, knowing that that vessel will preform ill will to someone. God will present a situation to a soul, knowing that that vessel will preform a good turn. We, as His creation make "choices" but it is not of our "free will," for it is God's Will that fashions the circumstances that ignites all of our moves. I love Father, He has said HE WILL, and that aint my will.
If one has a need to be greater that his Creator, go for it, I will remain being formed and moulded. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Glad to see you being moulded
Quote from: thinktank on June 13, 2011, 12:57:09 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 11, 2011, 04:20:47 AM
I will try everytime to stay out of a discussion that undermines the sovereignty of God..The Creator. It is my believe and stance beyond any doubt that God, Jehovah, is complete knowledge of ALL that His creation performs. Be that good or be that not good/evil. Mankind has "choices" and situations and circumstances are presented to an individual, if that soul is without the knowledge of The Blood of Jesus Christ, His resurrection from death and the cross, then that individual, that soul, could and will commit the hiedious of crimes.
Why do I reason this Rom 8:20 for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
God will present the situation to a soul, knowing that that vessel will preform ill will to someone. God will present a situation to a soul, knowing that that vessel will preform a good turn. We, as His creation make "choices" but it is not of our "free will," for it is God's Will that fashions the circumstances that ignites all of our moves. I love Father, He has said HE WILL, and that aint my will.
If one has a need to be greater that his Creator, go for it, I will remain being formed and molded. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Glad to see you being moulded
TT is there a going wage for finding spelling errors on threads? If so how much I may be interested, cuz there are many. Thanks for the pointing out of my error. I did correct it.
I know what you mean :laughing7: . You could download opera browser from netscape. I just downloaded it recently, this browser has a built in spell checker, haven't used it much yet, but it does underline misspelled words.
On mozilla firefox, you might be able to download a plugin spell checker perhaps, be careful not to download bad software though.
as for explorer I don't use it so :dontknow:
For in the day of trouble he will keep me safe in his dwelling; he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle and set me high upon a rock.
--Psa 27:5
Amen!
The LORD is good to everyone. He showers compassion on all his creation.
--Psa 145:9
The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
--Nahum 1:7
Quote from: Cardinal on June 08, 2011, 03:55:01 PM
:cloud9: John 1:1 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Outer court - In the beginning (firstfruits/which we are, is the same word here) was the Word
Inner court - and the Word was WITH God (God is with us, Emmanuel)
Holy of Holies - and the Word WAS God
Note that this is a process that begins with man (who is also the Word that is Spirit made flesh = the waters below the firmament), and ends with God.
Also, in the script I mentioned elsewhere (don't remember the thread) about the difference in HS and HG, if you read more of the text than I quoted, it says they were believers already, who didn't know there was such a thing as the HG they needed to receive. They already had the HS, but needed the HG, which was not available until He was glorified, because He had to die to accomplish it. Same Spirit, different manifestations thereof......my :2c:
Huh. Very interesting! And here I was thinking it was all the same... my bad! LOL
in my opinion it is the same Spirit- only one. One God, one Lord, one Body, one Spirit. As i read it, the issue was that, as yet the Holy Spirit had as yet come upon any of them....meaning that the overflow of or baptism in the Spirit had yet to be experienced by them.
It is written ,
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
and,
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
IMO, The same spirit is spoken of both as "the spirit of God" and the Holy Spirit.
IMO the "coming upon" of the spirit, or "baptism in" the Holy Ghost/Spirit is a dimension of the Spirit that was unavailable prior to the day of Pentecost- but it is not a different Spirit.
No other translation that the King James ever uses the term Holy Ghost, because in the Greek it is ALWAYS the same word, pneuma. Their is not one place where the word "ghost" in Holy Ghost is a different word than anywhere that Holy Spirit is used.
For instance in Lk
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
The King James uses Holy Spirit instead of Holy Ghost for some reason even tho the meaning is clearly the same, as in Thess
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
(1Th 4:8)
There is no reason why "holy" is not capitalized, there is no reason why "Spirit" is used rather than "Ghost".
It is always "hagios(hoy) pneuma (spirit)" and the KJV translators used the capital letters and "ghost/spirit" terms as it suited them with no rhyme or reason(IMO of course).
Just another perspective......peace, John
Hey eaglesway!
Quotein my opinion it is the same Spirit- only one.
Yes, and Card wasn't saying that the Spirit is divided, rather that it was different manifestations of the Spirit at different times.
(I am personally not sure about the word usage or anything, never did a study on it myself...)
Refractions perhaps, like the seven spirits of God. :o)
If mankind is veiled, looks trough a glass darkly, is bound into disobedience, etc I think it's proven that even the HS manifests always in the same way mankind will see different things depending on the amount of veils and hour dark their sunglasses are....
"Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit...?"
No.
Scripture assures us that those indwelt by The Holy Spirit are The Elect in Christ.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
If mankind is veiled, looks trough a glass darkly, is bound into disobedience, etc I think it's proven that even the HS manifests always in the same way mankind will see different things depending on the amount of veils and hour dark their sunglasses are....
I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here... Are you saying you don't believe God is in us all?
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 09, 2012, 07:16:17 AM
"Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit...?"
No.
Scripture assures us that those indwelt by The Holy Spirit are The Elect in Christ.
Christ is the light who enlightens EVERY MAN that comes into the world. The light is in all of us, to guide and correct us. Does everyone have the baptism of the HG that comes through faith? No, obviously not. But the light is in each of us.
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 09, 2012, 07:16:17 AM
"Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit...?"
No.
Scripture assures us that those indwelt by The Holy Spirit are The Elect in Christ.
:thumbsup:
And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.
--Eph 1:13
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2011, 06:22:53 AM
The Paraclete has been with me since I was a baby. He first saved me at only a few weeks old, he pulled me out of a lake at 5, he pulled me from under the wheels of a car at 7, he pulled me out of a semi frozen pond at 8, he saved my life again when I was 20, and on and on.
I'm glad to finally know who he is. Yes, the Holy Ghost is a 'he.' He has the most beautiful male voice you have ever heard. He is a close and trusted friend. I hope to see him some day.
John 16:7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Hey Molly,
You had posted this before. The HS was with you through your whole life you say. But surely you weren't a Christian as a baby?
I think the difference is the BAPTISM in the HG.
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2012, 02:16:27 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 12, 2011, 06:22:53 AM
The Paraclete has been with me since I was a baby. He first saved me at only a few weeks old, he pulled me out of a lake at 5, he pulled me from under the wheels of a car at 7, he pulled me out of a semi frozen pond at 8, he saved my life again when I was 20, and on and on.
I'm glad to finally know who he is. Yes, the Holy Ghost is a 'he.' He has the most beautiful male voice you have ever heard. He is a close and trusted friend. I hope to see him some day.
John 16:7
But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Hey Molly,
You had posted this before. The HS was with you through your whole life you say. But surely you weren't a Christian as a baby?
I think the difference is the BAPTISM in the HG.
Hi lomarah:
I believed in Jesus from my earliest memories. Of course, I had a mother who always talked to me about him, but this is not unprecedented.
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace.
--Gal 1:15
Yes He did. Isn't He wonderful? :)
Card wrote a nice huge post on this (it might even be in this thread somewhere...).
Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.
Faith like a child. :cloud9:
..that you were promised long ago. Eph 1:13
Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
"earnest" means "a pledge" [that he shall receive the whole thing], a 'downpayment.'
"In whom (Christ) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Eph 1:14
2 Corinthians 1:22 [He] set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzCD_8KbjI
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2012, 09:38:07 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
If mankind is veiled, looks trough a glass darkly, is bound into disobedience, etc I think it's proven that even the HS manifests always in the same way mankind will see different things depending on the amount of veils and hour dark their sunglasses are....
I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here... Are you saying you don't believe God is in us all?
That's not what I'm saying.
I'll use an example.
Say the HS is a painting in a museum.
Many visitors in that museum.
Some have sharp eyesight. Others wear inch thick glasses.
Some wear dark sunglasses. There's even a blind man that just feels the texture of the frame and the painting.
Some have blurred vison because the just emptied a bottle of Scoth. Some visitors are color blind.
Same painting but all will see something different.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 04:28:25 PM
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2012, 09:38:07 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
If mankind is veiled, looks trough a glass darkly, is bound into disobedience, etc I think it's proven that even the HS manifests always in the same way mankind will see different things depending on the amount of veils and hour dark their sunglasses are....
I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here... Are you saying you don't believe God is in us all?
That's not what I'm saying.
I'll use an example.
Say the HS is a painting in a museum.
Many visitors in that museum.
Some have sharp eyesight. Others wear inch thick glasses.
Some wear dark sunglasses. There's even a blind man that just feels the texture of the frame and the painting.
Some have blurred vison because the just emptied a bottle of Scoth. Some visitors are color blind.
Same painting but all will see something different.
OMG yes I totally see what you mean now! There are many who are blind... who can't see Him properly because of false doctrines, false worship, etc. Yes! And many who Christians would consider "blind" have better vision than many who think they can see, just like the Pharisees in Jesus' day!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 09, 2012, 04:26:33 PM
..that you were promised long ago. Eph 1:13
Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
"earnest" means "a pledge" [that he shall receive the whole thing], a 'downpayment.'
"In whom (Christ) also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Eph 1:14
2 Corinthians 1:22 [He] set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzCD_8KbjI
Yes, I see what you are saying Molly, and I think that is the difference between the light in every man and the baptism in the HG.
In Ephesians Paul said there is: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
And in Acts Paul says again: in him we live and move, and have our being; as certain of your own poets have said, 'For we are his offspring.'
He is the light that enlightens every man. Here is what Card wrote:
Now this is going to shake up some, but the strong man of the house is not Satan. Time to throw down all those Assembly of God, Church of God, ect., ect., teachings that have no life in them, grind them to powder and throw them on the fire.
He has a baptism to be baptized with, and how HE IS BOUND until it be accomplished. Christ, the strong man of the house of God, whose house we are, is bound in all of us
until the kingdom of God, which is righteousness, peace and joy IN the Holy Ghost, comes to us. So getting baptized INTO the Holy Ghost, frees Him to begin to do the WORKS of (God) the Holy Ghost. He is the light of ALL men that come into the world. But in the OT, Satan was already given the "world" = us, the dust he has to crawl on his belly to consume. Satan wanted us to fall, so God made him part of the solution, as what the enemy meant for evil, God (already) meant for good. Satan continues to eat our dust, making it so uncomfortable in the dust realm for us, that he pushes us right into the solution, which is Christ in us, the hope of glory. As we cooperate with the mind of Christ in line with the Father's plan, Satan literally "pushes" us up to be seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus. Does not any good "footstool" elevate the feet?
Now Christ's "goods" are being spoiled by the devils/devilish carnal mind imaginations, that are binding Him in us (with the AUTHORIZATION of the Father) because He must be reserved in heaven (the realm of the Spirit/understanding) until the time of the restitution or restoring of all things, that the enemy has taken. These things, which be of and in Christ, are IN US, but have been bound, and thereby spoiled, or made a "spoil", as in a spoil of "war." And the flesh, which Satan has a foothold in, WARS against the Spirit continually. Satan has the AUTHORITY to take us captive by HIS WILL, which was given to Him by the Father. Whatsoever is bound in heaven, is bound in earth.
Ps 19:5 - "Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a STRONG MAN to run a race."
Pr 24:5 - "A WISE MAN IS STRONG; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength."
And what's interesting is if you look up the word for RAM, as in.......
Ge 22:13 - "And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a RAM caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son."
.........you find that it runs into a meaning of a word that means STRONG MAN. You see, we were taught in the churches what a big devil he was, and they had us focusing on that, worrying about everything Satan could do to foil the plans of God, instead of what a big strong man of Christ we had INSIDE US.
Well, the RAM was BOUND, and offered up for a burnt offering. Christ IS the firstfruits offering, and God will supply the offering. So just like the 3 Hebrew children, ie. spirit, soul, and body, when we receive the baptism in the HG that begins to consume the cords that have bound Him in us by the "wicked king", pretty soon we begin to see a FOURTH MAN, the STRONG MAN, in the fire of the living God, that was heated 7 times hotter, purified like the gold of the mercy seat. That fire was the FIFTH element, it was God the Father, who never leaves us or forsakes us, FIVE is the number of His unmerited grace.
Now let's see what happens if you put all these things together.....
Acts 3: 1 "Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. 2 And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple;
When the "little" word (petras) that we are, joins itself to love (John = beloved/love), we can go UP INTO THE TEMPLE, at the hour of prayer, the 9th hour........9 fruits/9 gifts = the candlestick IN US. The 9th hour was 3pm, the time of the DEATH ON THE CROSS/RAM ON THE ALTAR. And we can go to those then that were lame from their mother's womb = unable to walk in the spirit because they are under the law/their mother is Hagar. We enter in by the STRAIGHT GATE, for OUR ASHES, He gives us beauty, the beauty of the Christ/Ram. Make yourselves a LIVING SACRIFICE.
3 "Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. 4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. 5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. 6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Silver (outer court) and gold (inner court) have I none = I have not held onto the fruit of yesterdays (days 1-6), but have entered into that which is beyond the veil (day 7); Christ in us and our Father are ONE IN US, He is no longer bound, but can finish His work and return to the Father, IN US.
"7 And he took him by the right (raised up by the Spirit) hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. 8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God: 10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him. 11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering."
Solomon's porch had 5 flows of water = flow of the Spirit thru the 5 fold. Those of you that are waiting for the restoration of the 5 fold ministry, it will not happen as many might think, but rather the fullness, which is in the first 2 courts as He told me, means that what was, will be increased. All must go thru the 2 first, ie. the foundation of the church is built upon the apostles/word and prophets/spirit. Petras/word and love/Spirit, must come into union first. Then the 5 fold as FULLNESS contained in the 2 that are now ONE, the robe of Melchisedek. Father is enthroned in the midst of them. Whenever 2 or more of you are GATHERED in my NAME/NATURE, there I AM in the midst of you. Those that will not gather with Him, scattereth abroad = divide the body. Notice ALL the people ran to THEM. Cast your net on the RIGHT SIDE.
"12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? 13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus (=THE SON HAS RETURNED TO THE FATHER IN US) whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. 14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses."
Every time we deny Christ's wisdom, we desire a murderer (Satan was a murderer from the beginning) to be granted unto us. We "kill" the Prince of life, whom God is trying to raise Him from the dead = out of the bondage of corruption. The corruption is not just this fleshly body He's speaking of, but rather the fleshly wisdom of the carnal mind, which is empowered by Satan that seeks to keep it's place in the temple declaring that he is God. Satan is the root of the tree that the axe must be laid at. Just as a tree has a main "tap root" that goes down farther into the earth, so is Satan the root that keeps the flesh alive thru sin, thus making it necessitate our being under the law/letter again to kill the flesh.
"16 And HIS NAME/NATURE THROUGH FAITH IN HIS NAME/NATURE, hath made this MAN STRONG, whom ye see and know: yea, THE FAITH WHICH IS BY HIM hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all."
It is not of works (law alone) lest any man should boast. Faith (Spirit/NT covenant fulfilled in us) without works (law/OT covenant fulfilled in us) is dead, and works without faith is dead. The Word cannot return (to the Father) void = devoid of the Spirit. Without faith (Spirit/NT covenant fulfilled in us) it is impossible to please Him.
For He hath smitten, and He will bind up, come let us return (as the Spirit breathed Word that we were before the foundation of the world/we became the letter Word/waters below the firmament) unto the Lord. HE IS, the Alpha AND the Omega. You can't return unto a place you've never been before..... Blessings to all......
I think the seed entered the world, and is in the whole world. (whether that seed entered the world when the lambkin was slain at the foundation, or at the cross, I do not know, although I don't think they are wholly separate events, just separated in the temporal)
A seed will lie dormant until it receives water to cause it to germinate. The water is the Spirit, raining down and reaching the seed causing it to grow into a full grown tree.
The sticky area for me will likely get us into a jam here with a certain topic that we can't go into easily here, but I'll throw this out anyway.
Christ is the seed, which is in all IMO. The spirit of Christ is used interchangeably with the Holy Spirit. Christ means anointed, with what? The Spirit of God.
This I don't see very clearly.
Also WW, I agree with your word picture.
RHM we "see" eye to eye. :happygrin:
:thumbsup:
I like the way Paul addressed the assembled philosophers and priests at Mars Hill (Acts 17)
"For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.
Paul identifies all mankind as "His offspring". He further states that "in Him we live and move and have our being"- I guess some of us just don't kno it yet. I think the spirit of God animates every living thing.
I think the "holy spirit" or "espiritu sanctus" or "hagios pneuma" (particularly since the resurrection and ascension of Christ) is a unique expression of the spirit of God through Jesus. "hagios" simply means "set apart", as in set apart by God for specific use. For this reason I think the Holy Spirit, as spoken of in the New Testament is a particular refraction, or aspect of, the Spirit of God that animates all living things. This is a manifestation of the spirit set apart to empower believers to love God, love one another, and thus DEMONSTRATE the reconciliation of all things among themselves as lamps within a greater LAMP, by both the fruits of the spirit and the gifts, distributed in diversity and unity according to the will of God. "If I be lfted up I will draw all things unto me".
John 7:
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
I don't think that is meant to say their was no resource for the spirit of God before Jesus' ascenscion, because peter tells us that the old testament prophets spoke by the spirit of God, and we have many references to the spirit of God "coming upon" people in the OT. No man can say Jesus is Lord but by the holy spirit, yet Apollos preached Jesus effectively "having only the baptism of John".
Acts 2:
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
As a gift and a promise, the holy spirit is not 'given/poured out' because of a point of knowledge. It is poured upon the pleasing sacrifice. The only sacrifice that pleases God is faith, and faith working through love- only "in Jesus" we are an acceptable sacrifice by His blood. It is upon the one with whom God is pleased that the anointing is poured and over whom the flame burns(see Romans 12 for regarding the oil, the flame and the acceptable sacrifice). As Paul says to the Galatians, "Did you receive the spirit that now works miracles among you by works of the law or by 'hearing with faith'"(gal 3).
The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the hagios pneuma that was "GIVEN TO US"(romans 5:5).
This love is the "living water", the "streams in the desert", the "river of life". Eventually every living thing will be restored to full "zoe" (godlife) in that ocean of love. In this age, we are a sign pointing the way. A wonder to make men wonder. A priesthood of reconiliation, empowered by the Spirit to proclaim the Lordship of Messiah and the Kingdom of God within.
Some say the evidence of the baptism or overflow of the spirit is tongues or signs and wonders- I say it is LOVE that makes the meal and the rest is just 'dessert'. "They were all as one soul..." Wow. That is really a miracle :o)!
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2012, 09:49:53 PM
I like the way Paul addressed the assembled philosophers and priests at Mars Hill (Acts 17)
"For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship —and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.
Paul identifies all mankind as "His offspring". He further states that "in Him we live and move and have our being"- I guess some of us just don't kno it yet. I think the spirit of God animates every living thing.
I think the "holy spirit" or "espiritu sanctus" or "hagios pneuma" (particularly since the resurrection and ascension of Christ) is a unique expression of the spirit of God through Jesus. "hagios" simply means "set apart", as in set apart by God for specific use. For this reason I think the Holy Spirit, as spoken of in the New Testament is a particular refraction, or aspect of, the Spirit of God that animates all living things. This is a manifestation of the spirit set apart to empower believers to love God, love one another, and thus DEMONSTRATE the reconciliation of all things among themselves as lamps within a greater LAMP, by both the fruits of the spirit and the gifts, distributed in diversity and unity according to the will of God. "If I be lfted up I will draw all things unto me".
John 7:
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
I don't think that is meant to say their was no resource for the spirit of God before Jesus' ascenscion, because peter tells us that the old testament prophets spoke by the spirit of God, and we have many references to the spirit of God "coming upon" people in the OT. No man can say Jesus is Lord but by the holy spirit, yet Apollos preached Jesus effectively "having only the baptism of John".
Acts 2:
32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
As a gift and a promise, the holy spirit is not 'given/poured out' because of a point of knowledge. It is poured upon the pleasing sacrifice. The only sacrifice that pleases God is faith, and faith working through love- only "in Jesus" we are an acceptable sacrifice by His blood. It is upon the one with whom God is pleased that the anointing is poured and over whom the flame burns(see Romans 12 for regarding the oil, the flame and the acceptable sacrifice). As Paul says to the Galatians, "Did you receive the spirit that now works miracles among you by works of the law or by 'hearing with faith'"(gal 3).
The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the hagios pneuma that was "GIVEN TO US"(romans 5:5).
This love is the "living water", the "streams in the desert", the "river of life". Eventually every living thing will be restored to full "zoe" (godlife) in that ocean of love. In this age, we are a sign pointing the way. A wonder to make men wonder. A priesthood of reconiliation, empowered by the Spirit to proclaim the Lordship of Messiah and the Kingdom of God within.
Some say the evidence of the baptism or overflow of the spirit is tongues or signs and wonders- I say it is LOVE that makes the meal and the rest is just 'dessert'. "They were all as one soul..." Wow. That is really a miracle :o)!
:goodpost:
QuoteSome say the evidence of the baptism or overflow of the spirit is tongues or signs and wonders- I say it is LOVE that makes the meal and the rest is just 'dessert'. "They were all as one soul..." Wow. That is really a miracle :o)!
YES, that love that the early church showed, wouldn't that just be AMAZING??? To be a part of a true family like that?? There are amazing writings on the baptism of the Holy Ghost here: http://www.tentmaker.org/holy-spirit/baptism-index.htm
The parts one and two by John G. Lake had me crying and jumping up and down in my computer chair and begging God for more of Him!! (Not like on top of my computer chair lol... just picture a really rough car ride roflol.)
I was first given the writings of John G Lake 32 years ago. I reacted the same way :o)
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2012, 09:41:30 AM
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 09, 2012, 07:16:17 AM
"Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit...?"
No.
Scripture assures us that those indwelt by The Holy Spirit are The Elect in Christ.
Christ is the light who enlightens EVERY MAN that comes into the world. The light is in all of us, to guide and correct us. Does everyone have the baptism of the HG that comes through faith? No, obviously not. But the light is in each of us.
Not all have The Light, there are those scripture speaks of as being in the darkness; it is we, those with The Light, that are to bring The Light to those in the dark.
We all have an inherent conscience; this, however, falls far short of the guiding and teaching of The Holy Spirit which occurs when we accept Jesus Christ and then The Holy Spirit's subsequent indwelling of the new believer. Scripture assures us this is something pecular and recerved exclusively for those in Christ.
The bible 'may' teach/profess fairness but certainly not equality.
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2012, 05:31:51 PM
Now this is going to shake up some, but the strong man of the house is not Satan. Time to throw down all those Assembly of God, Church of God, ect., ect., teachings that have no life in them, grind them to powder and throw them on the fire.
I read a book last week that, in detailing the lost thousand years of Christianity (@2--00-1200AD) covered a section on how about every five hundred years 'the church' undergoes a massive house cleaning of sorts.
In reference to the above quote it would seem that if The Church would do away with, at the least, 98% of all 'Christian (=Christ-like...??)' custom, history and tradition then both The Church and the world would by far be much better off.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 10, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
I think the seed entered the world, and is in the whole world. (whether that seed entered the world when the lambkin was slain at the foundation, or at the cross, I do not know, although I don't think they are wholly separate events, just separated in the temporal)
A seed will lie dormant until it receives water to cause it to germinate. The water is the Spirit, raining down and reaching the seed causing it to grow into a full grown tree.
Nice analogy for our finite mind to comprehend spirit world related complexities; however, that see is in those whom God foreknew before creation wojuld accept the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ; there is a distinction, a differencve if you will, between those in Christ that are saved and everyone else that is, eventually, saved.
The bible may teach/profess fairness but certainly not equality.
The sticky area for me will likely get us into a jam here with a certain topic that we can't go into easily here, but I'll throw this out anyway.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 10, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
Christ is the seed, which is in all IMO. The spirit of Christ is used interchangeably with the Holy Spirit. Christ means anointed, with what? The Spirit of God.
I am aware of no passage where The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are regarded as one and the same; further, "even if" they were, it would seem, that that would. of necessity, require The Father to, likewise, be similarly so regarded; in which case, would null and void the entire concept of the individuality of the components of the internal makeup of The Godhead ie The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit which, though failing by resulting in cultic anathema, we know is, nonetheless, not possible for it has never been not nice to attempt either to fool Mother Nature or mock God.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 11, 2012, 07:05:13 AM
I was first given the writings of John G Lake 32 years ago. I reacted the same way :o)
:bgdance: :banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 11, 2012, 08:15:07 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 10, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
I think the seed entered the world, and is in the whole world. (whether that seed entered the world when the lambkin was slain at the foundation, or at the cross, I do not know, although I don't think they are wholly separate events, just separated in the temporal)
A seed will lie dormant until it receives water to cause it to germinate. The water is the Spirit, raining down and reaching the seed causing it to grow into a full grown tree.
Nice analogy for our finite mind to comprehend spirit world related complexities; however, that see is in those whom God foreknew before creation wojuld accept the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ; there is a distinction, a differencve if you will, between those in Christ that are saved and everyone else that is, eventually, saved.
The bible may teach/profess fairness but certainly not equality.
The sticky area for me will likely get us into a jam here with a certain topic that we can't go into easily here, but I'll throw this out anyway.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 10, 2012, 04:06:10 PM
Christ is the seed, which is in all IMO. The spirit of Christ is used interchangeably with the Holy Spirit. Christ means anointed, with what? The Spirit of God.
I am aware of no passage where The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are regarded as one and the same; further, "even if" they were, it would seem, that that would. of necessity, require The Father to, likewise, be similarly so regarded; in which case, would null and void the entire concept of the individuality of the components of the internal makeup of The Godhead ie The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit which, though failing by resulting in cultic anathema, we know is, nonetheless, not possible for it has never been not nice to attempt either to fool Mother Nature or mock God.
Rom 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the
Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the
Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
:nod:
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made. Without Him nothing was made that has been made. (John)
Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Paul, in Ephesians.)
Ned nobody is mocking God here. You have an understanding of the Nature of the "Godhead", you may be correct in that understanding, but you may be wrong. That delves into one of the topics here that are difficult to discuss. Otherwise, friend, we are discussing things that are far beyond our finite mind, especially the nature of God, so lets try and keep the rhetoric on the friendly plane.
The Holy Spirit is a person. Decide for yourselves.
John 14:26, "These things I have spoken to you, while abiding with you. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Verses showing identity, ministry, and personhood of the Holy Spirit | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/verses-showing-identity-ministry-and-personhood-holy-spirit
Quote from: lomarah on June 11, 2012, 03:00:12 PM
:nod:
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made. Without Him nothing was made that has been made. (John)
Take the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Paul, in Ephesians.)
The Spirit was there also in the beginning.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The world does not know the Holy Spirit, nor can the world see the Holy Spirit.
John 14:17, "that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you, and will be in you." See also, John 15:26.
The Holy Spirit can translate us from one place to another supernaturally:
Acts 8:39, And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
The Holy Spirit can act in other ways upon the physical material world around us for our benefit:
14 When he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted as they met him. And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him mightily so that the ropes that were on his arms were as flax that is burned with fire, and his bonds dropped from his hands.
--Judges 15
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, ...John 14:26
"helper"
parakletos
,
The paraclete is one who comes alongside, the helper, the advocate, the comforter, the wingman who has your back, the soldier companion who fights next to you in the trenches.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper [parakletos], to be with you forever.
--John 14:16
Jesus is called the parakletos once in the New Testament.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--1 John 2:1
For this reason, Jesus tells his disciples that after he leaves, 'I will ask the Father and he will send you another helper [parakletos],' which is the Holy Spirit.
Thus, the Holy Spirit is to us as Jesus was to the disciples when he walked with them on earth.
Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2012, 07:55:13 PM
Jesus is called the parakletos once in the New Testament.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--1 John 2:1
For this reason, Jesus tells his disciples that after he leaves, 'I will ask the Father and he will send you another helper [parakletos],' which is the Holy Spirit.
Thus, the Holy Spirit is to us as Jesus was to the disciples when he walked with them on earth.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Is this the Spirit of God that was in Christ? The Spirit of God making Jesus the parakletos. There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
What about the seven spirits of God? Is there seven holy Spirits? Is that seven different "people"?
I see why Micah kept asking "what is spirit"?
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 11, 2012, 08:22:36 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 11, 2012, 07:55:13 PM
Jesus is called the parakletos once in the New Testament.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--1 John 2:1
For this reason, Jesus tells his disciples that after he leaves, 'I will ask the Father and he will send you another helper [parakletos],' which is the Holy Spirit.
Thus, the Holy Spirit is to us as Jesus was to the disciples when he walked with them on earth.
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Is this the Spirit of God that was in Christ? The Spirit of God making Jesus the parakletos. There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
What about the seven spirits of God? Is there seven holy Spirits? Is that seven different "people"?
I see why Micah kept asking "what is spirit"?
Parakletos is a function--advocate, helper, fellow warrior, wingman, teacher, friend.
Have you ever experienced this? I am sure you have.
Maybe you did not know who was doing it?
Because of the Holy Spirit, we are never left desolate, we are never alone, we are never without hope.
Sometimes it is more helpful to share how these things work in our own lives, than to discuss abstract theology.
Jesus was the one John saw upon whom the Holy Spirit alighted and never left. He had the Spirit without measure.
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
--John 16
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 04:28:25 PM
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2012, 09:38:07 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
If mankind is veiled, looks trough a glass darkly, is bound into disobedience, etc I think it's proven that even the HS manifests always in the same way mankind will see different things depending on the amount of veils and hour dark their sunglasses are....
I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here... Are you saying you don't believe God is in us all?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 04:28:25 PMThat's not what I'm saying.[\quote]
1Co 13:12, For now we SEE through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
If mankind is veiled
Actually, though often seen and heard, this would appear to be a manmade invention describing the spirit world and its activity beyond our senses. The word, "veil" appears only seven times in scripture; one refers to a headcovering (Song of Solomon), four (understandably, each appear in the Gospels refering to its being torn asunder, three in Hebrews referring to those of us who are in Christ as entering into that veil of which the third Hebrews verse tells us that veil is Jesus Christ's flesh and therefore does not include those not in Christ Jesus. Thus the description, "veiled", delineating the limits of our earthly senses from perceiving the spirit world, while apt in itself, really should not be mixed with, say, 'factual scripture'. One may, however, regard "The Mystery" and (as here) "The Riddle" as being 'veiled' though we then need to distinguish between actual spirit places and entities as opposed to concepts involving the knowledge and understanding of the deeper unknown future unfoldings of scripture, ie prohecy in fulfillment.
SEE: 4. oida = to know intuitively, without effort or experience; to have perceived or apprehended. Cp. the verb ginosko, which means to get to know, by effort, experience, or revelation. See the two verbs in the same verse (Joh 8:55; 13:7. 1Jo 5:20).
5. blepo = to have the power of seeing, to use the eyes, to look at; used of the act of looking, even though nothing be seen. Hence, to observe accurately and with desire; used of mental vision, and implying more contemplation than horao.
8. horao = to perceive with the eyes. It is used to bodily sight, and with special reference to the thought as to the object looked at. It thus differs from No. 5, above, in the same way as No. 1 does, and from No. 1 in that it has regard to the object while No. 1 refers to the subject.
(a). opsomai is used as the Future of horao (No. 8 above), and has regard to the object presented to the eye, and to the subject which perceives, at the same time. It denotes, not so much the act of seeing (like Nos. 5 and 8 above), but the state and condition of the one to whose eye the object is presented. Hence, to truly comprehend.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
through
through: pert: governs two cases (Genitive and Accusative), and denotes around, or about, like a completed circle. Hence concerning. It marks the object about which the action of the verb takes place. With the Genitive it means as concerning, or, as regards, but always with the primary idea, and marking the central point of the activity (e.g. Mat 4:6. Luk 24:19, 27, 44).
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 07:03:49 AM
a glass, darkly; but then face to face
glass = mirror. Gr. esoptron. Only here and Jam 1:23.
darkly. Lit. in (Gr. en) a riddle. Gr. ainigma. Only here in N. T. In the Sept., Num 12:8. 1Ki 10:1. Pro 13:1, 6, &c.
know = fully know.
even as, &c. = even as I was fully known also.
Quote from: lomarah on June 09, 2012, 09:38:07 AMAre you saying you don't believe God is in us all?[\quote]
I do; ie, I don't believe God is in us all which, of course, is another rabbit trail issue perhaps better suited another place (?) another time. ;-)
Anyway, Paul is obviously not referring to the spirit world in this verse, rather he refers to the presently unknown/unrevealed portion of unfulfilled prohecy or, as it were, that incomplete future portion contained within the volume on the story of human history on a shelf somewhere within The Almighty's personal omnisciently omnipresent library.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 04:28:25 PM
I'll use an example.
Say the HS is a painting in a museum.
Many visitors in that museum.
Some have sharp eyesight. Others wear inch thick glasses.
Some wear dark sunglasses. There's even a blind man that just feels the texture of the frame and the painting.
Some have blurred vison because the just emptied a bottle of Scoth. Some visitors are color blind.
Same painting but all will see something different.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2012, 04:28:25 PMthe HS manifests always in the same way
Numerous actual examples as well as several passages attesting to and verifying throughout the bible where THE Holy Spirit most assuredly is not in any way limited to any such predefined boxes.
Further, there are various Gifts of THE Holy Spirit just as there are various Fruits of THE Holy Spirit.
Those 'in Christ' may pray for and receive an appropriate measure of one or any number as so momentarilly may be required or God may, Himself, predetermine such, thus those atttributes, Gifts and Fruits of The Holy Spirit may thus ebb and wane as so the need of the moment requires.
Still, God is the same yesterday, today and forever; thus, as scripture, also, assures us, any human mental/emotional construct of finite relative rational preferential boxing of any portion of The Almighty's internal Being and Entity, without exception, dissolves into forgotten nothingness upon each individual's death.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 11, 2012, 03:14:58 PM
Ned nobody is mocking God here. You have an understanding of the Nature of the "Godhead", you may be correct in that understanding, but you may be wrong. That delves into one of the topics here that are difficult to discuss. Otherwise, friend, we are discussing things that are far beyond our finite mind, especially the nature of God, so lets try and keep the rhetoric on the friendly plane.
Apologies if things came across other than intended but accusative or convictional certainly is/was not the intent. though cautionary warnings as to certain boundaries for all (myself included) should never be shunned which, upon re-reading, there may have been a thought along those lines tho I'm not so sure what it may have been i might have thought i had then seen. :bdh:
Concerning the OP, I believe that all people have a spirit, that being created in the image of God we are a tripartate being (spirit, soul, and body). Similar to the nature of God, distinquishing between these three parts is very difficult, especially between the soul and the spirit. Because of death, the separation of the spirit/soul from the body, is more readily seen. We were created for a relationship with God, spirit to Spirit, at the deepest part of our being.
Because of sin, the fall of man, that relationship was broken and needs reconciliation. Because of the sin of Adam, humanity is born without the relationship of spirit to Spirit that we were created for. That is except for some who are physically born with a relationship to God because of God's sovereign will. I'm thinking of John the Baptist who was filled with the Spirit from birth. When a person is reconciled to God and that relationship of spirit to Spirit is restored, the person is "saved", restored, "born again", whatever you want to call it. Believing that all will ultimately have that relationship restored in no way lessens the need for that relationshp to be restored.
So is the Holy Spirit "in" everyone? If that is refering to all currently being saved, then no. Do all have a "spirit", yes and thus long for that relationship, spirit to Spirit to be restored fully and completely, which none of us shall fully experience, I believe, until the Lord returns and accomplishes the reconciliation of all, for not only do we miss that relationship with the Lord but with one another also, spirit to spirit.
The gifts of the Holy Spirit:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
--Isa 11
Quote from: Sherman on June 12, 2012, 01:07:23 AM
Concerning the OP, I believe that all people have a spirit, that being created in the image of God we are a tripartate being (spirit, soul, and body). Similar to the nature of God, distinquishing between these three parts is very difficult, especially between the soul and the spirit. Because of death, the separation of the spirit/soul from the body, is more readily seen. We were created for a relationship with God, spirit to Spirit, at the deepest part of our being.
Because of sin, the fall of man, that relationship was broken and needs reconciliation. Because of the sin of Adam, humanity is born without the relationship of spirit to Spirit that we were created for. That is except for some who are physically born with a relationship to God because of God's sovereign will. I'm thinking of John the Baptist who was filled with the Spirit from birth. When a person is reconciled to God and that relationship of spirit to Spirit is restored, the person is "saved", restored, "born again", whatever you want to call it. Believing that all will ultimately have that relationship restored in no way lessens the need for that relationshp to be restored.
So is the Holy Spirit "in" everyone? If that is refering to all currently being saved, then no. Do all have a "spirit", yes and thus long for that relationship, spirit to Spirit to be restored fully and completely, which none of us shall fully experience, I believe, until the Lord returns and accomplishes the reconciliation of all, for not only do we miss that relationship with the Lord but with one another also, spirit to spirit.
From much of (among others) a long SBC background I used to believe that way. No longer.
Scripture says man was created 'a' living soul; it does not, however, anywhere say man 'has' a soul. At best, the sentience is occassionally referred to as residing in the soul but, again, scripture says all that is lost at death.
I am aware of no place in scripture that statwa the unregenerate have a spirit; in fact, the unregenerate, at best, are likened to the beasts of the field.
Those 'in Christ', have been given their own personal spirit which, as best I can understand, 'may' become the new seat of memories (sentience); if so, then they are not lost at death; however, this creates a problem as since the scriptures tell us that in the new creation nothing of the old creation will be in the new creation NOR will anything of the old creation be remembered.
Then, of course, we have the indwelling of The Holy Spirit of all who are believers 'in' Christ.
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 12, 2012, 06:29:00 AM
From much of (among others) a long SBC background I used to believe that way. No longer.
Scripture says man was created 'a' living soul; it does not, however, anywhere say man 'has' a soul. At best, the sentience is occassionally referred to as residing in the soul but, again, scripture says all that is lost at death.
I am aware of no place in scripture that statwa the unregenerate have a spirit; in fact, the unregenerate, at best, are likened to the beasts of the field.
Those 'in Christ', have been given their own personal spirit which, as best I can understand, 'may' become the new seat of memories (sentience); if so, then they are not lost at death; however, this creates a problem as since the scriptures tell us that in the new creation nothing of the old creation will be in the new creation NOR will anything of the old creation be remembered.
Then, of course, we have the indwelling of The Holy Spirit of all who are believers 'in' Christ.
From my understanding (or misunderstanding) of scripture, the essence of the person is their soul; thus it doesn't flow to speak of a person having a soul. But scripture to me does tend to affirm that there is a difference between a person's spirit, soul, and body. Eccl. 12:7 says that in death the body returns to the dust from which it is made, but the spirit returns to God. Mt.26.41 says notes that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. And several passages of scripture indicate that the condition of a person's spirit influences their physical health. And Hebrews notes that the word of God is sharp enough to discern the difference between the joints and the marrow of the flesh as well as the difference between the spirit and soul of a person.
So it seems to me that all people do have a spirit, and that that spirit can be influenced by either the Spirit of God or, sadly, evil spirits. How people, even the writers of scripture, speak or write concerning the nature of man is not technical, but general. And it seems to me that the OT writers thought of man as having two parts, not three; whereas it seems to me there is a difference between the spirit and the soul and the flesh. But I could certainly be wrong.
My understanding;
1) soul, everyone
2) spirit, everyone
3) Holy Spirit, the saved
I've come more and more to see that the soul is more the essence of the living person, their sentience - who we are, per se, by the breath of God.
I also believe we all have a spirit, given by God. (Ecc., "the spirit returns to God who gave it'). We all have that spirit, that "spark" of God "that lights every man". But then there's the Holy or Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to do as He pleases - working inside and outside of whoever/whatever fulfills His grand purpose. IMO, not everyone has the infilling of the Spirit. I believe the Holy/Pure Spirit dwells, makes its home in, the (through grace, in order) spiritually reborn (saved) believer.
Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on June 12, 2012, 08:02:05 PM
My understanding;
1) soul, everyone
2) spirit, everyone
3) Holy Spirit, the saved
I've come more and more to see that the soul is more the essence of the living person, their sentience - who we are, per se, by the breath of God.
I also believe we all have a spirit, given by God. (Ecc., "the spirit returns to God who gave it'). We all have that spirit, that "spark" of God "that lights every man". But then there's the Holy or Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to do as He pleases - working inside and outside of whoever/whatever fulfills His grand purpose. IMO, not everyone has the infilling of the Spirit. I believe the Holy/Pure Spirit dwells, makes its home in, the (through grace, in order) spiritually reborn (saved) believer.
Blessings.
I appreciate your ability to put into a very short paragraph what it would take me a few pages..
and I realize you, too, are very busy; but I would be interested in your thoughts regarding the "spirit of man" as discussed in Prov 20:27; Eccl. 3:21; Zechariah 12:1; and 1 Cor 2:11.
thanks, anna274
Quote from: anna274 on June 12, 2012, 08:32:09 PM
Quote from: jabcat on June 12, 2012, 08:02:05 PM
My understanding;
1) soul, everyone
2) spirit, everyone
3) Holy Spirit, the saved
I've come more and more to see that the soul is more the essence of the living person, their sentience - who we are, per se, by the breath of God.
I also believe we all have a spirit, given by God. (Ecc., "the spirit returns to God who gave it'). We all have that spirit, that "spark" of God "that lights every man". But then there's the Holy or Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to do as He pleases - working inside and outside of whoever/whatever fulfills His grand purpose. IMO, not everyone has the infilling of the Spirit. I believe the Holy/Pure Spirit dwells, makes its home in, the (through grace, in order) spiritually reborn (saved) believer.
Blessings.
I appreciate your ability to put into a very short paragraph what it would take me a few pages..
and I realize you, too, are very busy; but I would be interested in your thoughts regarding the "spirit of man" as discussed in Prov 20:27; Eccl. 3:21; Zechariah 12:1; and 1 Cor 2:11.
thanks, anna274
Thanks Anna :dsunny:. I'm an "outline" guy, you got the details!
You probably know more about those scriptures than I do, and maybe I can learn if
you will share
your thoughts on them. I'll also look at those scrips though..I'm sure there are things about it I don't understand. You know, the more I
think I know, the less I really do! lol Blessings.
Thanks Anna :dsunny:. I'm an "outline" guy, you got the details!
You probably know more about those scriptures than I do, and maybe I can learn if you will share your thoughts on them. I'll also look at those scrips though..I'm sure there are things about it I don't understand. You know, the more I think I know, the less I really do! lol Blessings.
[/quote]
Besides loving the Scriptures, we have another thing in common: outlines.... I'm an outline gal, do the outlining before I begin and you're an outline guy who does the outlining after you have studied!!!!
I have looked at, studied, prayed, meditated on those verses and have learned much. In fact, I know so much about them that I am absolutely convinced that there is much, much more for me to know...
I look forward to your outline!!! Anna
Techie illiterate that I am... I don't know how to use the smileys, etc.
Part 1
Whenever we find 'soul' or 'spirit' the individual meanings in each particular passage do not always mean the same thing, often, as with English, a word references multiple meanings. Still, people being as they are, I shall leave the understanding to each his own, mine is no no more likely tobe correct than the next person's which is why I quit believing everything anyone ever told me was so without, at thge least, questioning 'does the bible REALLY say that?' Rather than paraphrase in my own words that which others have stated more exhaustively and elegantly I shall, for the moment, defer to inserting herewith those definitions. While it is not the end all to the discussion it will, nonetheless, make good added fodder for the discussion's ongoing. The four quotes are grouped accordingly:
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT
THE USAGE OF PNEUMA IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
THE USE OF PSUCHE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
My apologies in advance for the chart formatting did not come through on a couple of them.
Quote
Companion Bible
Appendix #13
THE USE OF Nephesh IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
The word Nephesh occurs 754 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. Each occurrence is noted in the margin, but it will be useful for the Bible student to have a complete list.
In the A.V. and R.V. it is translated "soul" 472 times, while in the other 282 places it is represented by forty-four different words or phrases. In fifty-three of these places there is a marginal rendering which calls attention to the fact that the word is "Nephesh", while in 229 passages the English reader has hitherto been left in ignorance of the fact. The English word "soul" is in every occurrence the rendering of the Hebrew Nephesh, except in Job 30:15 and Isa 57:16. See the notes. the time has come to "open the book", and let it speak for itself. Henceforth, every one who uses The Companion Bible will have complete information as to the facts, and can use it in determining his definitions, making his own classifications, and formulating his doctrines as to the Biblical use of the word.
Though, with these two exceptions, the English word "soul" always represents the Hebrew Nephesh, Nephesh is not always translated "soul".
This Appdx-will exhibit all the varieties of translation; and, while it is not intended to teach either Theology or Psychology, it will give such information as will enable every Bible reader to form his own views and come to his own conclusions on an important subject, about which there is such great controversy. his can be done only by giving every occurrence of the Hebrew word Nephesh.
Each occurrence is noted in the margin of The Companion Bible; but it is well to present a complete, separate, and classified list of the recognized Lexical usages of the word; and the reader will be left to form his own judgment as to how far the following classification is correct.
The usage of the word Nephesh by the Holy Spirit in the Word of God is the only guide to the true understanding of it. It will be seen that the word "soul", in its theological sense, does not cover all the ground, or properly represent the Hebrew word "Nephesh". The English word "soul" is from the Latin solus = alone or sole, because the maintenance of man as a living organism, and all that affects his health and well-being, is the one sole or main thing in common with every living thing which the LORD God has made. The correct Latin word for the theological term "soul" (or Nephesh) is anima; and this is from the Greek anemos = air or breath, because it is this which keeps the whole in life and in being.
[The usage of the corresponding New Testament word psuche will be presented in a later Appendix.] The first occurrence of Nephesh is in Gen 1:20, "the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh)". (*1)
The following are twelve classifications of Nephesh:
1.
Nephesh is used of the lower animals only, in twenty-two passages, and is rendered in nine different ways:—
1.
"creature"
Gen 1:21, 24; 2:19; 9:10, 12. Lev 11:46.
7
2.
"thing"
Lev 11:10. Eze 47:9.
2
3.
"life"
Gen 1:20, 30.
2
4.
"the life"
Gen 9:4. Deu 12:23. Pro 12:10.
4
5.
"beast"
Lev 24:18. (See margin.)
3
6.
"the soul"
Job 12:10. (See margin.)
1
7.
"breath"
Job 41:21.
1
8.
"fish"
Isa 19:10. (See margin.)
1
9.
"her"
Jer 2:24.
1
Total
22
2.
Nephesh is used of the Lower Animals and Man in seven passages, and rendered in three different ways:—
1.
"creature"
Gen 9:15, 16.
2
2.
"the life"
Lev 17:11, 14.
4
3.
"soul"
Num 31:28.
1
Total
7
3.
Nephesh is used of Man, as an individual person, in 53 passages, and is rendered in six different ways:—
1.
"soul"
Gen 2:7; 12:5; 46:15, 18, 22, 25, 26, 27. Exo 1:5; 12:4. Lev 22:11. Psa 25:20. Pro 10:3; 11:25, 30; 14:25; 19:15; 22:23 (R.V. life); 25:25; 27:7. Jer 38:16. Lam 3:25. Eze 13:18, 20; 18:4
34
2.
"person"
Gen 14:21; 36:6 (R.V. souls). Exo 16:16. Lev 27:2. Num 31:40, 46. Deu 10:22. Jer 43:6; 52:29, 30. Eze 16:5; 27:13.
14
3.
"persons"
Num 31:35.
1
4.
"any"
Deu 24:7.
1
5.
"man"
2Ki 12:4
1
6.
"and"
1Ch 5:21
1
Not rendered
Num 31:35 (Lit. "and the soul of man...were 32,000 souls.")
1
Total
53
4.
Nephesh is used of Man, as exercising certain powers, or performing certain acts (may be often well rendered by emphatic pronouns), in ninety-six passages, and with eleven different renderings:—
1.
"soul"
Gen 27:4, 19, 25, 31. Lev 4:2; 5:1, 2, 4, 15, 17; 6:2; 7:18, 20, 21, 27; 16:29, 31; 17:12, 15; 20:6, 25; 22:6; 23:27, 30, 32. Num 15:27, 28, 30; 19:22; 29:7; 30:2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. Deu 13:6. Jdg 5:21. 1Sa 1:26; 17:55; 18:3; 20:3, 17; 25:26. 2Sa 11:11; 14:19. 2Ki 2:2, 4, 6; 4:30. Job 16:4; 31:30 (R.V. life). Psa 35:13; 120:6. Pro 6:32; 8:36; 11:17; 13:2; 15:32; 16:17; 19:8, 16; 20:2 (R.V. life); 21:23; 22:5; 29:24. Ecc 4:8; 6:2. Isa 51:23; 58:3, 5. Jer 4:19. Eze 4:14. Mic 6:7.
81
2.
"man"
Exo 12:16.
1
3.
"any"
Lev 2:1.
1
4.
"one"
Lev 4:27.
1
5.
"yourselves"
Lev 11:43, 44. Jer 17:21.
3
6.
"person"
Num 5:6.
1
7.
"themselves"
Est 9:31. Isa 46:2.
2
8.
"himself"
Job 18:4 (R.V. thyself); 32:2.
2
9.
"he"
Psa 105:18.
1
10.
"herself"
Jer 3:11.
1
11.
"Himself"
Jer 51:14. Amo 6:8 (used of Jehovah).
2
Total
96
5.
Nephesh is used of Man, as possessing animal appetites and desires, in twenty-two passages, rendered in five different ways:—
1.
"soul"
Num 11:6 (dried away). Deu 12:15 (lusteth), 20 (longeth to eat flesh), 20 (lusteth after), 21 (lusteth); 14:26 (lusteth), 26 (desireth); 21:5 (loatheth). Isa 2:16 (desireth). Job 6:7 (refused); 33:20 (abhorreth). Psa 107:18 (abhorreth). Pro 6:30 (hunger); 13:25 (satisfying). Isa 29:8 (empty), 8 (hath appetite). Mic 7:1 (desired...figs).
17
2.
"pleasure"
Deu 23:24.
1
3.
"lust"
Psa 78:18.
1
4.
"appetite"
Pro 23:2. Ecc 6:7.
2
5.
"greedy"
Isa 56:11.
1
Total
22
6.
Nephesh is used of Man, as exercising mental faculties, and manifesting certain feelings and affections and passions, in 231 passages, and rendered in twenty different ways:—
1.
"soul"
Gen 34:3 (clave), 8 (longeth); 42:21 (anguish); 49:6 (come not). Lev 26:11 (not abhor), 15 (abhor), 30 (abhor), 43 (abhor). Num 21:4 (discouraged). Deu 4:9 (keep), 29 (seek); 6:5 (love); 10:12 (serve); 11:13 (love), 18 (lay up in); 13:3 (love); 26:16 (keep); 30:2 (return), 6 (love), 10 (turn). Jos 22:5 (serve); 23:14 (know). Jdg 10:16 (Used of God) (grieved); 16:16 (vexed). Isa 1:10 (bitterness of), 15 (poured out); 18:1 (knit with), 1 (loved as); 20:4 (desireth); 23:20 (desire); 30:6 (grieved). 2Sa 5:8 (hated). 1Ki 2:4 (walk); 8:48 (return); 11:37 (desired). 2Ki 4:27 (vexed); 23:3 (keep), 25 (turned). 1Ch 22:19 (seek). 2Ch 6:38 (return); 15:12 (seek); 34:31 (keep). Job 3:20 (bitter); 7:11 (bitterness); 9:21 (know) (R.V. myself); 10:1 (weary), 1 (bitterness); 14:22 (mourn); 19:2 (vex); 21:25 (bitterness); 23:13 (Used of God) (desireth); 24:12 (wounded); 27:2 (vexed); 30:16 (poured out), 25 (grieved). Psa 6:3 (sore vexed); 11:5 (Used of God) (hateth); 13:2 (take counsel); 19:7 (converting); 24:4 (not lifted up); 25:1 (lifted up), 13 (dwell at ease); 31:7 (in adversities), 9 (consumed with grief); 33:20 (waiteth); 34:2 (boast); 35:9 (be joyful); 42:1 (panteth), 2 (thirsteth), 4 (pour our), 5 (cast down), 6 (cast down), 11 (cast down); 43:5 (cast down); 44:25 (bowed down); 62:1 (waileth), 5 (wait); 63:1 (thirsteth), 5 (satisfied), 8 (followeth hard); 69:10 (chastened); 77:2 (refused comfort); 84:2 (longeth); 86:4 (rejoiced), 4 (lift up); 88:3 (full of troubles); 94:19 (delight); 103:1, 2, 22; 104:1, 35 (bless); 107:5 (fainted), 9 (satisfied), 9 (filled with goodness), 26 (melted); 116:7 (return to rest); 119:20 (longing), 25 (cleaveth unto the dust), 28 (melteth for heaviness), 81 (fainteth), 129 (keep), 167 (kept); 123:4 (filled with scorning); 130:5 (wait), 6 (waiteth); 131:2 (quieted); 138:3 (strengthened); 139:14 (knoweth); 143:6 (thirsteth), 8 (lifted up), 11 (bring out of trouble), 12 (afflict); 146:1 (praise). Pro 2:10 (knowledge pleasant); 3:22 (be life to); 13:4 (desireth), 4 (made fat), 19; 16:24 (sweet to); 19:2 (without knowledge), 18 (spare) (R.V. heart); 21:10 (desireth); 22:25 (get a snare to); 24:14 (wisdom unto); 25:13 (refresheth); 29:17 (give delight). Ecc 2:24 (enjoy good); 6:3 (not filled); 7:28 (seeketh). Son 1:7; 3:1, 2, 3, 4 (loveth); 5:6 (failed); 6:12 (Used of God) (made me like chariots). Isa 1:14 (hateth); 26:8 (desire), 9 (desire); 32:6 (made empty); 38:15 (bitterness of); 42:1 (Used of God); 55:2 (delight); 58:10 (drawn out), 10 (afflicted), 11 (satisfied); 61:10 (joyful); 66:3 (delighteth). Jer 4:31 (wearied); 5:9, 29 (avenged); 6:8 (depart), 16 (find rest); 9:9 (Used of God) (avenged); 12:7 (dearly beloved of); 13:17 (shall weep); 14:19 (loathed); 31:12 (watered), 14, 25 (satiated), 25 (sorrowful); 32:41 (Used of God) (whole); 50:19 (satisfied). Lam 3:17 (removed), 20 (humbled), 24 (saith). Eze 7:19 (satisfied); 24:21 (pitieth). Jon 2:7 (fainted). Hab 2:4 (not upright). Zec 11:8 (lothed), 8 (abhorred).
176
2.
"mind"
Gen 23:8 (your). Deu 18:6 (desire); 28:65 (sorrow). Isa 2:35 (Used of God). 2Sa 17:8 (chafed). 2Ki 9:15. 1Ch 28:9 (willing). Jer 15:1 (Used of God). Eze 23:17 (R.V. soul), 18 (Used of God) (R.V. soul), 18 (Used of God) (soul), 22 (R.V. soul), 28 (R.V. soul) (alienated); 24:25 (R.V. heart) (set); 36:5 (R.V. soul) (despiteful).
15
3.
"heart"
Exo 23:9. Lev 26:16. Deu 24:15. Isa 2:23 (grieve). 2Sa 3:21 (desireth). Psa 10:3 (desire). Pro 23:7 (R.V. himself); 28:25 (proud heart) (R.V. greedy spirit); 31:6 (heavy heart.) (R.V. bitter in soul). Jer 42:20 (dissembled) (R.V. souls). Lam 3:51 (affected) (R.V. soul). Eze 25:6 (rejoiced) (R.V. soul), 15 (despiteful) (R.V. soul); 27:31 (bitterness). Hos 4:8 (set).
15
4.
"hearty"
Pro 27:9 (counsel).
1
5.
"will"
Deu 21:14 (she will). Psa 27:12; 41:2. Eze 16:27.
4
6.
"desire"
Ecc 6:9. Jer 22:27; 44:14. Mic 7:3 (R.V. soul). Hab 2:5.
5
7.
"pleasure"
Psa 105:22. Jer 34:16.
2
8.
"lust"
Exo 15:9.
1
9.
"angry"
Jdg 18:25.
1
10.
"discontented"
Isa 22:2.
1
11.
"thyself"
Est 4:13.
1
12.
"myself"
Psa 131:2.
1
13.
"he"
Pro 16:26 (R.V. appetite).
1
14.
"his own"
Pro 14:10 (R.V. its own).
1
15.
"Him"
Pro 6:16 (Used of God)
1
16.
"himself"
Jon 4:8.
1
17.
"herself"
Isa 5:14 (R.V. her desire).
1
18.
"yourselves"
Jer 37:9.
1
19.
"man"
Isa 49:7.
1
20.
"so would we have it"
Psa 35:25.
1
Total
231
7.
Nephesh is used of Man, (a) as being "cut off" by God; (b) and as being slain of killed by man, in fifty-four passages: and is rendered in eight different ways:—
(a)
Soul cut off by God, in twenty-two passages, and rendered:
"soul"
Gen 17:14. Exo 12:15, 19; 31:14; Lev 7:20, 21, 25, 27; 17:10; 18:29; 19:8; 20:6; 22:3; 23:29, 30. Num 9:13; 15:30, 31; 19:13, 20. Eze 18:4, 20.
22
(b)
Slain or killed by man, in thirty-two passages, rendered in eight different ways:—
1.
"soul"
Jos 10:28, 30, 32, 35, 37, 37, 39; 11:11. Jer 2:34. Eze 13:19; 22:25, 27.
12
2.
"person"
Deu 27:25. Jos 20:3, 9. Isa 22:22. Pro 28:17. Eze 17:17; 33:6.
7
3.
"any"
Lev 24:17.
1
4.
"any person"
Num 31:19; 35:11, 15, 30, 30.
5
5.
"him"
Gen 37:21. Deu 19:6; 22:26.
3
6.
"mortally"
Deu 19:11.
1
7.
"life"
2Sa 14:7.
1
8.
"thee"
Jer 40:14, 15.
2
Total
54
8.
Nephesh is used of Man as being mortal, subject to death of various kinds, from which it can be saved and delivered and life prolonged, in 243 passages, rendered in eleven different ways:—
1.
"soul"
Gen 12:13; 19:20. Exo 30:12, 15, 16. Lev 17:11, 11 (R.V. life). Num 16:38 (R.V. lives); 31:50. 1Sa 24:11; 25:29, 29, 29; 26:21 (R.V. life). 2Sa 4:9. 1Ki 1:29; 17:21, 22. Job 7:15; 27:8. Psa 3:2; 6:4; 7:2, 5; 11:1; 17:13; 22:20, 29; 23:3; 25:20; 26:9; 33:19; 34:22; 35:3, 4, 12, 17; 40:14; 41:4; 49:8, 15; 54:3, 4; 55:18; 56:6, 13; 57:4; 59:3; 63:9; 66:9, 16; 69:1, 18; 70:2; 71:10, 13, 23; 72:13, 14; 74:19; 78:50; 86:2, 14; 88:14; 94:21; 97:10; 106:15; 109:20, 31; 116:4, 8; 119:109; 175; 120:2; 121:7; 124:4, 5, 7; 141:8; 142:4, 7; 143:3. Pro 18:7; 24:12; 29:10. Isa 3:9; 10:18; 44:20; 53:10, 11, 12; 55:3. Jer 4:10; 20:13; 26:19; 38:17, 20; 44:7; 51:6 (R.V. life), 45 (R.V. yourselves). Lam 1:11, 16, 19; 2:12; 3:58. Eze 3:19, 21; 13:18, 19; 14:14, 20; 18:27; 33:5, 9. Hos 9:4 (R.V. appetite). Jon 2:5. Hab 2:10.
127
2.
"life, lives"
Gen 9:5, 5; 19:17, 19; 32:30; 35:18; 44:30, 30. Exo 4:19; 21:23, 23, 30. Num 35:31. Deu 19:21, 21; 24:6. Jos 2:13, 14; 9:24. Jdg 5:18; 9:17; 12:3; 18:25, 25. Rth 4:15. 1Sa 19:5, 11; 20:1; 22:23, 23; 23:15; 26:24, 24; 28:9, 21. 2Sa 1:9; 4:8; 16:11; 18:13; 19:5, 5, 5, 5; 23:7. 1Ki 1:12, 12; 2:23; 3:11; 19:2, 2, 3, 4, 10, 14; 20:31, 39, 39, 42, 42. 2Ki 1:13, 13, 14; 7:7; 10:24, 24. 1Ch 1:11. Est 7:3, 7; 8:11; 9:16. Job 2:4, 6; 6:11 (R.V. be patient); 13:14; 31:39. Psa 31:13; 38:12. Pro 1:18, 19; 6:26; 7:23; 13:3, 8. Isa 15:4 (R.V. soul); 43:4. Jer 4:30; 11:16; 19:7, 9; 21:7, 9; 22:25; 34:20, 21; 38:2, 16; 39:18; 44:30, 40; 45:5; 46:26; 48:6; 49:37. Lam 2:19; 5:9. Eze 32:10. Jon 1:14; 4:3.
110
3.
"ghost"
Job 11:20. Jer 15:9.
2
4.
"person"
2Sa 14:14 (R.V. life).
1
5.
"tablets"
Isa 3:20 (R.V. perfume boxes) (Heb. "houses of the soul" = boxes of scent for the nose).
1
6.
"deadly"
Psa 17:9 (Heb. "enemies against my Nephesh").
1
7.
"himself"
1Ki 19:4. Amo 2:14, 15.
3
8.
"me"
Num 23:10. Jdg 16:30. 1Ki 20:32.
3
9.
"they"
Job 36:14.
1
10.
"themselves"
Isa 47:14.
1
11.
"yourselves"
Deu 4:15. Jos 23:11.
2
Total
243
9.
Nephesh is used of man, as actually dead, in thirteen passages, and is rendered in three different ways:—
1.
"the dead"
Lev 19:28; 21:1; 22:4. Num 5:2; 6:11.
5
2.
"dead body"
Num 9:6, 7, 10.
3
3.
"body"
Lev 21:11. Num 6:6; 19:11, 13. Hag 2:13.
5
Total
13
10.
Nephesh, in thirteen passages (all rendered "soul"), is spoken of as going to a place described by four different words, rendered as shown below:—
1.
"sheol" = THE grave (as distinct from keber, A grave), gravedom (or the dominion of death), in five passages, rendered in this connection in two different ways:—
1.
"grave". Psa 30:3 (R.V. "Sheol"); 89:48 (R.V. "Sheol", marg. grave). (Cp. Psa 49:15). (2)
2.
"hell". Psa 16:10 (R.V. "Sheol"); 86:13 (marg. grave. R.V. "pit", marg. lowest Sheol). Pro 23:14 (R.V. "Sheol", marg. the grave). (3)
2.
"shachath" = a pit (for taking wild beasts); hence, a grave. The Septuagint and New Testament take it in the sense of corruption; but, if so, not implying putridity, but destruction. Occurs in six passages, and is rendered in two different ways:—
1.
"pit". Job 33:18, 28, 30. Psa 35:7. Isa 38:17. (5)
2.
"grave". Job 33:22 (R.V. "pit"). (1)
3.
"shuchah" = a deep pit (cp. all the occurrences, Pro 22:14; 23:27. Jer 2:6; 18:20, 22). In one passage only:—
1.
Pit. Jer 18:20. (1)
4.
"dumah" = silence. Psa 94:17. (1) Total = 13
(*1) It is used of the lower animals four times before it is used of man; and out of the first thirteen times in Genesis, it is used ten times of the lower animals.
The above, in actuality, is a chart--which did not copy over correctly; still, the pertinent info comes through.
It should be noted that God's breath (or spirit) of life that was breathed into that pile of molded clay that became Adam is the same breath of life that was breathed into all living things if which, I would assume, includes both animal and plant. In this respect, all mankind is no different than the beasts of the field for when God calls His breath of life back to Himself, regardless if it be man, animal or carrot, it dies.
Sentience, awareness, memories, emotions, etc are regarded, to my understanding, as residing within the seat of the soul (and, yet, often the terminology is synonomous making 'soul' no different than that which, presumably, is referred to reside within it) which, according to Ecclesiastes, are lost at death. if there is no awareness or sentience to speak of of then there is life and where there is no life there is the absence of Jesus Christ who is both The Life and The Resuurection (please note the specifics of the dual use of the definite article).
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Companion Bible
Appendix #9
THE USAGE OF RUACH, SPIRIT
The word ruach occurs 389 times in the Hebrew O.T. n the A.V. it is rendered spirit in 237 passages (and no other word is rendered spirit except neshamah, "breath", in Job 26:4 and Pro 20:27.See Ap. 16). In the remaining 152 places it is translated in 22 different ways, which are to be carefully distinguished.
[In the R.V. ruach is rendered spirit 224 times, and in the remaining 165 passages is rendered in many different ways.] The meaning of the word is to be deduced only from its usage. The one root idearunning through all the passages is invisible force. As this force maybe exerted in varying forms, and may be manifested in divers ways, so various renderings are necessitated, corresponding thereto.
Ruach, in whatever sense it is used, always represents that which is invisible except by its manifestations. These are seen both externally to man, as well as internally within man. As coming from God, it is the invisible origin of life. All apart from this is death. It comes from God, and returns to God (Ecc 3:19, 20).Hence, ruach is used of:
1.
GOD,
as being invisible. "The Spirit of Jehovah" is Jehovah Himself, in His manifestation of invisible power.
2Sa 23:2. Psa 139:7 (= Thee). Isa 40:13.
2.
THE HOLY SPIRIT:
the Third Person of the Trinity.
2Sa 23:2. 1Ki 18:12; 22:24. 2Ki 2:16. 18:23. Neh 9:20, 30. Job 26:13; 33:4. Isa 40:13; 48:16; 59:19, 21; 61:1; 63:10, 1-4. Isa 3:12, 14 (1st); Eze 8:3; 11:1, 24; 37:1; 43:5. Mic 2:7; 3:8. 4:6; Zec 6:8; 7:12. Mal 2:15.
3.
INVISIBLE DIVINE POWER MANIFESTING ITSELF
In creation. Gen 1:2.
In giving life. Eze 37:14.
In executing judgment—
"blast." Exo 15:8. Isa 37:7.
"breath." 2Sa 22:16. 2Ki 19:7. Job 4:9; 15:30. 18:15; Psa 33:6. Isa 11:4; 30:28.
"spirit." Isa 4:4; 28:6; 34:16; 40:7.
4.
INVISIBLE "POWER FROM ON HIGH", MANIFESTING ITSELF AS DIVINE POWER
in giving spiritual gifts. Spoken of as coming upon, clothing, fallingon, and being poured out. Rendered "Spirit", but should be "spirit".
Gen 41:38. Exo 28:3; 31:3; 35:31. 11:17, Num 11:25, 26, 29; 24:2; 27:8. Deu 34:9. Jdg 3:10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:25; 14:6, 19; 15:14. Isa 10:6, 10;Isa Isa 11:6; 16:13, 14; 19:20, 23. 2Ki 2:9, 15. 1Ch 12:18;1Ch 1Ch 28:12. 2Ch 15:1; 20:14; 24:20. 51:11, Psa 51:12; 143:10. Pro 1:23. 11:2.; Isa 30:1; 32:15; 42:1, 5; 44:3; 59:21; 61:1; 63:11. Eze 2:2; 3:24; 11:5, 19; 36:27; 39:29. Dan 4:8, Dan Dan 4:9, 18; 5:11, 12, 14. Joe 2:28, 29. Hag 2:5. 12:10.
5.
THE INVISIBLE PART OF MAN (Psychological).
Given by God at man's formation at birth, and returning to God at his death.
"Breath." Gen 6:17; 7:15, 22. Job 9:18; 12:10; 17:1. Psa 104:29; 135:17; 146:4. Ecc 3:19. Jer 10:14; 51:17. 4:20. Eze 37:5, 6, 8, 9, 10. Hab 2:19. Zec 12:1.
"spirit." Gen 6:3. Num 16:22; 27:16. Job 27:3; 34:14. Psa 31:5; 104:30. Ecc 3:21; 8:8; 11:5; 12:7. Isa 42:5."Wind." Eze 37:9.
6.
THE INVISIBLE CHARACTERISTICS OF MAN;
manifesting themselves in states of mind and feeling (by the Fig. Metonymy. See Ap. 6, p.11).
"Mind." Gen 26:35. Pro 29:11. Eze 11:5; 20:32.Dan Eze 5:20. Hab 1:11.
"Breath." Job 19:17 (= manner).
"Courage." Jos 2:11.
"Anger." Jdg 8:3.
"Blast." Isa 25:4.
"Spirit." Gen 41:8; 45:27. Exo 6:9; 35:21. 5:14, Num 5:30; 14:24. Jos 5:1. 15:19. 1Sa 1:15; 30:12. 1Ki 10:5; 21:5. 1Ch 5:26. 2Ch 9:4; 21:16; 36:22. Ezr 1:1, 5. Job 6:4; 7:11; 10:12; 15:13; 20:3; 21:4; 32:8, 18. Psa 32:2; 34:18; 51:10, 11, 12, 17; 76:12; 78:8; 142:3; 143:4, 7. Pro 11:13; 14:29; 15:4, 13; 16:2, 18, 19, 32; 17:22, 27; 18:14; 25:28; 29:23. Ecc 1:14, 17; 2:11, 17, 26; 4:4, 6, 16; 6:9; 7:8, 9; 10:4. Isa 19:3, 14; 26:9; 29:10, 24;Isa Isa 33:11; 38:16; 54:6; 57:15, 16; 61:3; 65:14; 66:2. 51:11. Eze 13:3. Dan 7:15. Hos 4:12; 5:4. Mic 2:11 (by Hendiadys (Ap. 6), for a false of lying spirit).
7.
Put by the Fig. Synecdoche for THE WHOLE PERSON (see Ap. 6).
Psa 3:6; 106:33, Eze 21:7, Dan 2:1, Dan Dan 2:3; Mal 2:15, 16.
8.
INVISIBLE SPIRIT-BEINGS.
"Angels." Psa 104:4.
"Cherubim." Eze 1:12, 20, 21; 10:17.
Neutral spirit-beings. Job 4:15. Isa 31:3.
Evil angels. Jdg 9:23. 1Sa 16:14, 15, 16, 23; 18:10; 19:9. 1Ki 22:21, 1Ki 1Ki 22:22, 23. 2Ch 18:20, 21, 2Ch 2Ch 18:22. Zec 13:2.
9.
THE INVISIBLE MANIFESTATIONS OF THE ATMOSPHERE.
Temperature. Gen 3:8 ("cool").
Air.
"Wind" or "winds" in every place where the words "wind" or "winds"occur.
"Whirlwind." Eze 1:4.
"Windy." Psa 55:8.
"Spirits." Zec 6:5.
"Air." Job 41:16.
"Tempest." Psa 11:6.
"Blast." Exo 15:8. 2Ki 19:7. Isa 25:4; 37:7.
"Quarters" (of the four winds). 1Ch 9:24.
"Side" or "sides" (of the four winds). Jer 52:23. Eze 42:16, Eze Eze 42:17, 18, 19, 20.
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Companion Bible
Appendix #101
THE USAGE OF PNEUMA IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Pneuma = Spirit, is the Greek word corresponding with the Heb. ruach in the Old Testament. The usage of the latter will be found in Ap. 9, and should be compared with this appendix. As to the Greek word (pneuma): we must consider:
I. The occurrences, and
II. The usage:—
I. The occurrences of pneuma
Pneuma occurs in the Received Greek Text 385 times. Of these, all the Critical Texts (see Ap. 94. vii) agree in omitting nine (*1) (or in substituting another reading) and in adding three (*2).
The occurrences are thus distributed:—
Received Text.
To be omitted. (*1)
To be added. (*2)
Net result.
In the Gospels
105
2
—
103
In the Acts
69
1
1
69
In the earlier Pauline
21
2
—
19
In the later Pauline
140
2
1
139
In the Apostolic Epp.
27
2
—
25
In the Apocalypse
23
—
1
24
385
9
3
379
The above 385 occurrences in the Received Text are thus rendered in the A.V.:—
"Spirit", 133; "spirit", 153; "spiritual", 1; "ghost", 2; "life", 1; and "wind", 1
291
In the Genitive case, "spirituality", 1
1
With "hagion" (holy) = Holy Spirit", 4; "Holy Ghost", 89
93
385
In the margin:—
"Breath" is given twice as an alternative for "spirit", and once for "life".
"Of the spirit" is given as an alternative for "spiritually"; and
"spirit" is given as an alternative for "spiritual".
II. The usages of pneuma.
The following have been noted in The Companion Bible. It is used for
1.
GOD. "God is pneuma" (Joh 4:24). Not "a" spirit, for there is no indefinite Article in the Greek.
2.
CHRIST, as in 1Co 6:17; 15:45; and especially 2Co 3:17-18 (= the pneuma of v. 6-, &c.).
3.
THE HOLY SPIRIT, generally with the Article, denoting the Giver, as distinct from His gifts. See No. 14, p. 147. After a preposition the Article is sometimes to be understood, as being latent.
4.
THE OPERATIONS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, in the bestowal of spiritual gifts, as in 1Co 12:4-11.
5.
THE NEW NATURE in the child of God, because "begotten" in us by God, as in Joh 3:3-7. 1Jo 5:1, 4. See note on Mat 1:1. This is more especially the Pauline usage: spirit as opposed to what is of the flesh (Joh 3:6. Rom 8:4). Hence called "pneuma Theou" (= Divine pneuma (Rom 8:9. 1Co 7:40; 12:3), and pneuma Christou (= Christ pneuma) in Rom 8:9.
6.
MAN (psychologically), pneuma being imparted to man, making him "a living psuche" (= "a living soul", or being, as in Gen 2:7. Psa 104:29, 30. Ecc 12:7). When taken back to and by God, man, without pneuma, becomes and is called "a dead soul" in each of the thirteen occurrences rendered in A.V. "dead body", &c. See Ap. 13. ix, p. 21).
7.
CHARACTER, as being in itself invisible, and manifested only in one's actions, &c. Rom 8:15. (2Ti 1:7, &c.).
8.
OTHER INVISIBLE CHARACTERISTICS (by Fig. Metonymy, Ap. 6): such as feelings or desires (Mat 26:41, &c.); or that which is supernatural.
9.
MAN (physiologically), pneuma being put by Fig. Synecdoche (Ap. 6) for the whole person; a part for the whole (as in Luk 1:47, "my spirit" = I myself). See Ap. 9. VII.
10.
ADVERBIALLY. But this is only once in the A.V., where it is translated "spirituality" in Rom 8:6. Cp. the R.V. rendering.
11.
ANGELS, OR SPIRIT BEINGS. As in Act 8:29. Heb 1:7, 14. 1Pe 3:19. Rev 1:4.
12.
DEMONS or evil spirit beings, as in Mar 7:25, 26. Luk 10:17, 20, &c.
13.
THE RESURRECTION BODY, as in 1Co 15:45. 1Pe 3:18; 4:6.
14.
Pneuma hagion = holy spirit, and is so printed in The Companion Bible. This usage (without Articles) occurs 52 times in the N.T., and is always wrongly rendered "the Holy Spirit" (with the definite Article, and capital letters). Consequently there is no stronger rendering available when there are two Articles present in the Greek (to pneuma to hagion), which means "the Spirit the Holy [Spirit]". Hence, the English reader can never tell which of the two very different Greek expressions he is reading.
Pneuma hagion (without Articles) is never used of the Giver (the Holy Spirit), but only and always of His gift. What this gift is may be seen by comparing Act 1:4, 5 with Luk 24:49, where "the promise of the Father" is called {in the former passage) pneuma hagion, and in the latter is called "power from on high". This "power from on high" includes whatever gifts the Holy Spirit may bestow "according to His own will". What particular gift is meant is sometimes stated, e.g. "faith", "power", &c. This will be found to be the case in every one of the 52 occurrences. See Act 2:4 (the first occurrence subsequent to Act 1:4, 5), where we read "they were all filled (*3) with pneuma hagion, and began to speak with other tongues, as THE Spirit gave". Here the Giver and His gift are strictly distinguished.
The following are the 52 occurrences of pneuma hagion. Those marked * are the subject of a various reading, and h.p. denotes hagion pneuma: Mat 1:18, 20; 3:11. Mar 1:8. Luk 1:15, 35, 41, 67; 2:25; 3:16; 4:1; 11:13. Joh 1:33; 7:39; 20:22. Act 1:2, 5; 2:4; 4:8, 31*; Act 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 10:38; 11:16, 24; 13:9, 52; 19:2. Rom 5:5; 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16. 1Co 2:13*; 6:19 h.p.; 12:3. 2Co 6:6. 1Th 1:5, 6. 2Ti 1:14. Tit 3:5. Heb 2:4; 6:4. 1Pe 1:12. 2Pe 1:21. Jud 1:20.
The above 14 usages of pneuma, and the 52 occurrences of pneuma hagion, are all indicated in the notes of The Companion Bible.
(*1) Luk 2:40; 9:55. Act 18:5. Rom 8:1. 1Co 6:20. Eph 5:9. 1Ti 4:12. 1Pe 1:22. 1Jo 5:7.
(*2) Act 4:25-. Phi 4:23. Rev 22:6.
(*3) The Verb to fill takes three Cases after it. In the Active, the Accusative of the vessel or whatever is filled; and the Genitive, of what it is filled with. In the Passive, the Dative of the filler; and the Genitive, of what the vessel is filled with. In Eph 5:18 it is the Dative, strengthened by the Preposition (en pneumati), denoting the Holy Spirit Himself as being the one Who fills with other gifts than "wine".
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Companion Bible
Appendix #110
THE USE OF PSUCHE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
psuche is the only word translated "soul" in the N.T. It occurs 105 times, and is rendered "soul" 58 times, "life" 40 times, "mind" 3 times, and "heart", "heartily", "us", and "you" once each. To ascertain its meaning, it is useless to go to heathen authors. The Greek philosophers were at variance among themselves. ARNOBIUS, a Christian writer of the latter part of the third century, in his work Adversus Gentes, speaking of the speculations of the heathen of his day, says: "In exactly the same way (as the creation and the gods) is the condition of souls discussed. For this one thinks they are both immortal, and survive the end of our earthly life; that one believes that they do not survive, but perish with the bodies themselves; the opinion of another, however, is that they suffer nothing immediately, but that, after the [form of] man has been laid aside, they are allowed to live a little longer, and then come under the power of death." (*1)
We must therefore, let Scripture be its own interpreter. Psuche exactly corresponds to the Hebrew Nepesh (Ap. 13), as will be seen from the following passages: Mar 12:29, 30, compared with Deu 6:4, 5; Act 2:27 with Psa 16:10; Rom 11:3 with 1Ki 19:10; 1Co 15:45 with Gen 2:7. In all these places, psuche in the New Testament represents nepesh in the Old.
The following are the occurrences of the word:—
1.
psuche, used of the lower animals twice, is rendered
1.
"life": Rev 8:9
2.
"soul": Rev 16:3
2.
psuche, used of man as an individual (just as we speak of a ship going down with every soul on board, or of so many lives being lost in a railway accident), occurs 14 times, and is rendered "soul": Act 2:41, 43; 3:23; 7:14; 27:37. Rom 2:9; 13:1. 1Co 15:45. Jam 5:20. 1Pe 3:20. 2Pe 2:14. Rev 6:9; 18:13; 20:4.
3.
psuche, used of the life of man, which can be lost, destroyed, saved, laid down, &c., occurs 58 times, and is rendered
1.
"life": Mat 2:20; 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; 20:28. Mar 3:4; 8:35; 10:45. Luk 6:9; 9:24, 56; 12:23; 14:26; 17:33 (*2). Joh 10:11, 15, 17; 12:25; 13:37, 38; 15:13. Act 15:26; 20:10, 24; 27:10, 22. Rom 11:3; 16:4. Phi 2:30. 1Jo 3:16. Rev 12:11.
2.
"soul": Mat 10:28; 16:26. Mar 8:36, 37. Luk 12:20; 21:10. 1Th 2:8; 5:23. Heb 4:12; 6:19; 10:39; 13:17. Jam 1:21. 1Pe 1:9; 2:11, 25; 4:19.
4.
psuche, used to emphasize the pronoun, as we use "self" (e.g. "my soul" = "myself"), occurs 21 times and is rendered
1.
"soul": Mat 11:29; 12:18; 26:38. Mar 14:34. Luk 1:46; 12:19. Joh 12:27. Act 2:27, 31; 14:22; 15:24. 2Co 1:23. Heb 10:38. 1Pe 1:22. 2Pe 2:8. Rev 18:14.
2.
"mind": Act 14:2. Heb 12:3.
3.
"us": Joh 10:24.
4.
you": 2Co 12:15 (see margin).
5.
psuche, used with intensive force, to express all the powers of one's being, occurs 10 times, and is rendered
1.
"soul": Mat 22:37. Mar 12:30, 33. Luk 2:35; 10:27. Act 4:32. 3Jo 2.
2.
"heart": Eph 6:6
3.
"mind": Phi 1:27
4.
"heartily": Col 3:23
(*1) Clark's Ante-Ni af cene Christian Library, vol. xix, p. 125.
(*2) In this verse "life" occurs twice in the English, but psuche only once in the Greek.
Hi Sky: I appreciate your very scholarly approach to searching the Scriptures ... and will look at your posts more carefully; and, although I very probably already have most of the same information and am quite diligent in using this information, I will print your posts for future reference. Thanks. Anna
The New Testament uses three words to describe us.
Body is soma
Soul is psuche [I think our word 'psychology' comes from this Greek word]
Spirit is pneuma
So the New Testament is very clear that we are made up of body, soul/mind, and spirit in its choice of words. We are tripartite creatures.
Quote from: anna274 on June 12, 2012, 08:32:09 PM
I would be interested in your thoughts regarding the "spirit of man" as discussed in Prov 20:27; Eccl. 3:21; Zechariah 12:1; and 1 Cor 2:11.
thanks, anna274
Hi anna. Here's my simplistic version of my thoughts - my "outline" - which is often actually
most of what I think I know. :laughing7:
In the scriptures you mention, including what most of the translations call "the spirit of man", they appear to me to have to do with the "spirit God gave him" Ecc. 12:7. Perhaps placed within the body of dust, lent for just awhile until it returns to God. This as opposed to the body that returns to the dust, and the Holy/Pure Spirit of God.
Some thoughts/suggestions;
the "spirit of man" is the spark, the spirit God gives to light/enlighten every man.
Prov. 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord – it's how mankind is lightened/enlightened, the conscience.. Young's translation is interesting; "The breath of man is a lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the inner parts of the heart."
Eccl. 3:21 man's existence will be
with God, in the heavenlies; "brutes/beasts", are of/pertaining to, the earth
Zechariah 12:1 different than the body. It is a spirit within Him – separate entities.
1 Cor 2:11 only man's spirit can know himself, the thoughts of MAN - (his own, not others'). On the other hand, God's Spirit knows the thoughts of God.
Thanks James for taking the time to study and reply... as usual you have given me some things to consider or maybe even reconsider re: spirit of man. There is much to learn, isn't there? Now comes the difficult part, at least for me... what to do or what not to do with new "knowledge"...
God bless you, Anna
Quote from: anna274 on June 13, 2012, 01:10:44 AM
Thanks James for taking the time to study and reply... as usual you have given me some things to consider or maybe even reconsider re: spirit of man. There is much to learn, isn't there? Now comes the difficult part, at least for me... what to do or what not to do with new "knowledge"...
God bless you, Anna
And I am sure I am missing some things, and that there is still much to learn about it, as you say. It's just the way I'm able to understand it right now. I'm sure there are varying opinions on it. Some of it may even be right. lol.
Thanks, blessings, James.
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 11, 2012, 08:22:36 PM
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Is this the Spirit of God that was in Christ? The Spirit of God making Jesus the parakletos. There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
What about the seven spirits of God? Is there seven holy Spirits? Is that seven different "people"?
I see why Micah kept asking "what is spirit"?
In my opinion, the seven spirits of God are simply multiple aspects and functions of one spirit, even as light thru a prism refracts into 7 colors of light. "there was a stone with seven eyes....." language of parable, one stone with 7 eyes. God is the one stone. IMO, The Spirit of Christ is only "in" those who have a relationship with Jesus, but, I don't think that relationship functions through a point of knowledge- I think it is by the love of God...."the one who loves knows God and is known by God.........The Lord knows those that are His.......".
Many who know(head knowledge) all about Jesus(in their minds) do not have His spirit in them.... "If any man says he knows God and hates his brother he is walking in darkness still...... Lord, Lord didnt we blah blah blah.....Yea, but I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat....depart from me u lawless ones I never knew you"
Knowing Him is love. Some, who may not know all about Him in their heads, nevertheless demonstrate that they know Him in their living, in their love(see the parable called 'The Good Samaritan'....read Romans 2:12-16)
Ro 5:5," His love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given us"
That the spirit of God animates evry living thing is simple for me. This fundamental essence of life flows around in the outer court(body and natural mind/soul of every conscious being. It appears to me that intercourse with (knowing) God in the Spirit is an issue of sacrificial love, laying down ones life for a friend(or better yet even an enemy). This is where the Spirit of God 'abides/dwells/tabernacles " in the inner court of the heart. To me the difference is in the relationship to God and the way in which He relates to us in whatever condition we may be in, suiting Himself to our needs, and flowing through any open door He can find. To some He is "the spirit of judgment and burning". To some, He is the "spirit of comfort and consolation". To some He is the "spirit of wisdom and revelation". All of these "refractions" or "expressions" of God's eternal power and divine nature are for the accomplishing of the many faceted wisdom of God.
IMO, in this dispensation of the ages, the Holy Spirit convicts men of righteousness and judgment and teaches the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. He indwells believers in a measure unavailable to unbelievers and previously(in ages past) unavailable to any but a few chosen prophets and sages and priests and fathers.
Quote from: jabcat on June 12, 2012, 08:02:05 PM
My understanding;
1) soul, everyone
2) spirit, everyone
3) Holy Spirit, the saved
I've come more and more to see that the soul is more the essence of the living person, their sentience - who we are, per se, by the breath of God.
I also believe we all have a spirit, given by God. (Ecc., "the spirit returns to God who gave it'). We all have that spirit, that "spark" of God "that lights every man". But then there's the Holy or Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to do as He pleases - working inside and outside of whoever/whatever fulfills His grand purpose. IMO, not everyone has the infilling of the Spirit.
So most people are composed of 3 "units" but true Christians of 4 'units" ?
Or does the HS upgrade or replace the regular spirit?
Quote from: jabcat on June 12, 2012, 08:02:05 PM
My understanding;
1) soul, everyone
2) spirit, everyone
3) Holy Spirit, the saved
I've come more and more to see that the soul is more the essence of the living person, their sentience - who we are, per se, by the breath of God.
I also believe we all have a spirit, given by God. (Ecc., "the spirit returns to God who gave it'). We all have that spirit, that "spark" of God "that lights every man". But then there's the Holy or Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to do as He pleases - working inside and outside of whoever/whatever fulfills His grand purpose. IMO, not everyone has the infilling of the Spirit. I believe the Holy/Pure Spirit dwells, makes its home in, the (through grace, in order) spiritually reborn (saved) believer.
Blessings.
that same 'spark', God's breath of life is the same thing that gives life to allliving creatures,not just man. in that respect there is no difference between that which gives man life and that which gives worms, trees or beasts life.
the sentience, which separates man from beast is something altogether different. but that sentience, which includes the memories, is lost as death.
other than God's breath (aka spirit) of life unregenerate man has no spirit (as in spirits/ghosts/spirit woprld, etc), all too often this is confused with the term spirit when referring to (for example) breaking a horse's spirit or a man who has a strong spirit, etc.
MAN (psychologically), pneuma being imparted to man, making him "a living psuche" (= "a living soul", or being, as in Gen 2:7. Psa 104:29, 30. Ecc 12:7). When taken back to and by God, man, without pneuma, becomes and is called "a dead soul" in each of the thirteen occurrences rendered in A.V. "dead body", &c. See Ap. 13. ix, p. 21).
Quote from: anna274 on June 12, 2012, 09:44:30 PM
Hi Sky: I appreciate your very scholarly approach to searching the Scriptures ... and will look at your posts more carefully; and, although I very probably already have most of the same information and am quite diligent in using this information, I will print your posts for future reference. Thanks. Anna
Thank you for your kind words. the copy/paste quotes, which did not come through as I had hoped thus making it a little hard to understand. if you have either eSword or Bible Analyzer (very similar to eSword, a clone even) the Companion Bible and its Appendixes (198 of which 3 I tried to copy above) are free to download for eSword and, as I recall only about $5 for the Bible Analyzer program.
Lot of Bullinger stuff: http://www.oocities.org/thatblessedhope/plin9k1.htm (http://www.oocities.org/thatblessedhope/plin9k1.htm)
Appendixes: http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/B/Bullinger-Appendix_to_Companion_Bible(b).pdf (http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/B/Bullinger-Appendix_to_Companion_Bible(b).pdf)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 13, 2012, 08:08:22 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 12, 2012, 08:02:05 PM
My understanding;
1) soul, everyone
2) spirit, everyone
3) Holy Spirit, the saved
I've come more and more to see that the soul is more the essence of the living person, their sentience - who we are, per se, by the breath of God.
I also believe we all have a spirit, given by God. (Ecc., "the spirit returns to God who gave it'). We all have that spirit, that "spark" of God "that lights every man". But then there's the Holy or Pure Spirit of God, that He sends forth to do as He pleases - working inside and outside of whoever/whatever fulfills His grand purpose. IMO, not everyone has the infilling of the Spirit.
So most people are composed of 3 "units" but true Christians of 4 'units" ?
Or does the HS upgrade or replace the regular spirit?
other than God's breath of life and the psychological references to spirit i am aware of no passages that state unregenerate man has a spirit (as in spirits in the spirit world, etc).
but, yes, as i understand it, man is a living soul (ex 3000 souls ie lives died on 9-11) and that ceases to exist at death.
so there is:
for the unbeliever:
1 God's breath of life that animates all living creatures.
added to that, for the believer:
there is:
2 the believer's spirit received upon conversion
3 The Holy Spirit
then there is the sentience/memories/brain as it were but that is lost as death.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 13, 2012, 10:12:47 AM
Lot of Bullinger stuff: http://www.oocities.org/thatblessedhope/plin9k1.htm (http://www.oocities.org/thatblessedhope/plin9k1.htm)
Appendixes: http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/B/Bullinger-Appendix_to_Companion_Bible(b).pdf (http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/B/Bullinger-Appendix_to_Companion_Bible(b).pdf)
it never ceases to amaze me that people (such as Bullinger) back in those days, without electricity, typewriters, computers, word processors, shortage of paper (and the cost), quills for pens, etc how they could amass such in depth study and research. mistakes by and large were not allowed like it is today where we make a mistake and wad the page up, throw it away and grab another piece.
Difference between the spirit of life and the Holy Spirit. The very things Christ is talking about with Nicodemus when He says about being born again.
QuoteI've come more and more to see that the soul is more the essence of the living person, their sentience - who we are
and scripture tells us that is lost, gone, forgotten upon death. so the idea that we will remember all in this life seems unlikely.
also, scripture tells us that in the new creation none of the old will be there nor will any of it be remembered.
if unregenerate man had an immortal soul or, for that matter, even a spirit, that would imply that he is an eternal being and, yet, scripture assures us that only God is immortal thus if man were immortal he would not die and scripture would not be true when it says God alone is immortal.
Man is a soul who has a spirit, and lives in a body. We get all 3 made new. Heart, womb, and soul are interchangable words, essentially. Heart = innermost being, just like the innermost chamber of the tabernacle. All three words are "something hollowed out", ie. something made to RECEIVE, as in, to receive SEED.
Eve was Adam's stony heart, removed from him so he could see what was in his heart, face to face, which was an unregerate heart, iniquity was found in him. Adam is the spirit and soul of man in union = He called THEIR name Adam.
God always multiplies by division and He's the only one that can do it that way. Death = division, and life comes out of death, it's a tool for Him to use. Unless a grain of wheat fall to the ground and dies (division of soul and spirit), it abideth alone, but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit (multiplication). We decrease, He increases.
Ezekiel 11:19 KJV
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze. 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed ; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die , O house of Israel?
Eze. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Revelation 2:17 KJV
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone (CLEAN VIRGIN SOUL THAT COMES DOWN FROM ABOVE = EVERY GOOD AND PERFECT GIFT COMES FROM ABOVE), and in the stone a new name (NAME MEANS NATURE, A NEW SPIRIT = NEW NATURE) written , which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
That which is made to receive, receives seed, and that seed expresses its nature through that which was made to receive it. My two cents...
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit [pneuma] and soul [psuche] and body [soma] be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.
--1 Thess 5:23
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes? Is it not you?
This conversation is going to continue going nowhere if we (myself included) insist on propounding personal opinions and misreading scripture. what WE think or believe is of absolutely no value and has no substantive scriptural validity in the eyes of The Lord. The ONLY thing that counts is not the 7 billion opinions (read: 7 billion rolls of toilet paper) of what The Word of God SHOULD be but; rather, what God says IS so.
Forbidden subject so I just gonna say this once.
I'm no Trinitarian. Neither as one or 3 persons. Don't know exactly why but my impresion is always that the HS is let's call it Fathers personality.
And part of that is blown in with the breath of life in Genesis.
Then what is starting to believe? Or recieving the HS? Just looking at the Pentecost event it looks like a strong external force entering the body. Was that really what happend or did God just give agood show for a special event?
It's said we look trough a glass darkly. We are veiled. We are bound to disobedience.
When reading those things I always get the impression:
We = "what we think we are" - "veil, glass etc"
Meaning becoming holy doesn't mean recieving something good but losing something bad.
A refiners fire and a fullars soap remove junk. It doesn't add purity.
So perhaps the toungues of fire at pentecost didn't reall invade the bodies, but schredded veils and cleaned the glass.
Just my thoughts.
You know what Wings, I wonder about that, this is something I'm not sure about, do we get a NEW spirit and soul, like completely OTHER than what we are? That doesn't make sense to me, what you said makes more sense, about the fuller's soap and all that. He MAKES all things new... He makes us new... what does that mean?? When I think of something "new" I think of just that - something "new"! Like a new toy, a new car... but to make us new, what does that mean??
Oh the mysteries of God lol!
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 13, 2012, 07:51:20 PM
This conversation is going to continue going nowhere if we (myself included) insist on propounding personal opinions and misreading scripture. what WE think or believe is of absolutely no value and has no substantive scriptural validity in the eyes of The Lord. The ONLY thing that counts is not the 7 billion opinions (read: 7 billion rolls of toilet paper) of what The Word of God SHOULD be but; rather, what God says IS so.
On this forum it is all about our opinions, since no one has the very word of God here- and no one is the unique arbiter of everyone elses opinions and wether or not they have merit.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2012, 08:58:55 PM
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 13, 2012, 07:51:20 PM
This conversation is going to continue going nowhere if we (myself included) insist on propounding personal opinions and misreading scripture. what WE think or believe is of absolutely no value and has no substantive scriptural validity in the eyes of The Lord. The ONLY thing that counts is not the 7 billion opinions (read: 7 billion rolls of toilet paper) of what The Word of God SHOULD be but; rather, what God says IS so.
On this forum it is all about our opinions, since no one has the very word of God here- and no one is the unique arbiter of everyone elses opinions and wether or not they have merit.
:thumbsup:
Romans 12:2
And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing (anakainosis) of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing (anakainosis) of the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration--we are spiritually reborn every day by the Holy Spirit.
We are made new, re-newed, every day by the Holy Spirit.
Anakainoo means to make fresh[implied through repetition] :
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
--Eph 4:23
The manna must be collected and eaten every day.
In this way, we are transformed.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
--Luke 9:62
13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
--Phil 3
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 13, 2012, 08:24:02 PM
Forbidden subject so I just gonna say this once.
I'm no Trinitarian. Neither as one or 3 persons. Don't know exactly why but my impresion is always that the HS is let's call it Fathers personality.
And part of that is blown in with the breath of life in Genesis.
Then what is starting to believe? Or recieving the HS? Just looking at the Pentecost event it looks like a strong external force entering the body. Was that really what happend or did God just give agood show for a special event?
It's said we look trough a glass darkly. We are veiled. We are bound to disobedience.
When reading those things I always get the impression:
We = "what we think we are" - "veil, glass etc"
Meaning becoming holy doesn't mean recieving something good but losing something bad.
A refiners fire and a fullars soap remove junk. It doesn't add purity.
So perhaps the toungues of fire at pentecost didn't reall invade the bodies, but schredded veils and cleaned the glass.
Just my thoughts.
:thumbsup:
Isa 25
And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever.
All creation waits with eager longing for the unveiling of the sons of God.
The unveiling of Jesus Christ that was given to him by God.
Quote from: Molly on June 13, 2012, 10:13:39 PM
Romans 12:2
And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing (anakainosis) of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing (anakainosis) of the Holy Spirit.
Regeneration--we are spiritually reborn every day by the Holy Spirit.
We are made new, re-newed, every day by the Holy Spirit.
Anakainoo means to make fresh[implied through repetition] :
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
--Eph 4:23
The manna must be collected and eaten every day.
In this way, we are transformed.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.
Thanks Moll, that answered some stuff for me for sure.
Quote15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
And that was something that I really needed to hear right now.
And God breathed His breath of life into that pile of molded clay and it became a living soul. The wording seemsquite emphatic, I can't argue with the fact that it takes clay and God's breath of life to create a living soul. Nowhere does it say otherwise and if it did then it would seem scripture would be contradicting itself making itself out to be a hypocritical lie.
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 14, 2012, 03:48:46 AM
And God breathed His breath of life into that pile of molded clay and it became a living soul. The wording seemsquite emphatic, I can't argue with the fact that it takes clay and God's breath of life to create a living soul. Nowhere does it say otherwise and if it did then it would seem scripture would be contradicting itself making itself out to be a hypocritical lie.
You are, of course, talking about Adam. Yet, no where else do we see that description of God deliberately and specifically breathing into his creation, save one place in the New Testament. Are we to assume that something that is not described for Eve or anyone else actually happened?
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.--John 20:22
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2012, 04:01:42 AM
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 14, 2012, 03:48:46 AM
And God breathed His breath of life into that pile of molded clay and it became a living soul. The wording seemsquite emphatic, I can't argue with the fact that it takes clay and God's breath of life to create a living soul. Nowhere does it say otherwise and if it did then it would seem scripture would be contradicting itself making itself out to be a hypocritical lie.
You are, of course, talking about Adam. Yet, no where else do we see that description of God deliberately and specifically breathing into his creation, save one place in the New Testament. Are we to assume that something that is not described for Eve or anyone else actually happened?
It's like the flowers in your garden. Did God create them today/this year? Or did He create the laws of nature back then; and the seeds of the first flower kept the proces running? Same for the breath which is mulitplied by the human reproduction system.
That brings us to anonther issue: Animals have breath too. The flood story cleary writes about animals with breath in their nostrils drowning. Is it a coincidence the creation itself uses the exact same words? (breath/nostril)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 14, 2012, 05:09:07 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2012, 04:01:42 AM
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 14, 2012, 03:48:46 AM
And God breathed His breath of life into that pile of molded clay and it became a living soul. The wording seemsquite emphatic, I can't argue with the fact that it takes clay and God's breath of life to create a living soul. Nowhere does it say otherwise and if it did then it would seem scripture would be contradicting itself making itself out to be a hypocritical lie.
You are, of course, talking about Adam. Yet, no where else do we see that description of God deliberately and specifically breathing into his creation, save one place in the New Testament. Are we to assume that something that is not described for Eve or anyone else actually happened?
It's like the flowers in your garden. Did God create them today/this year? Or did He create the laws of nature back then; and the seeds of the first flower kept the proces running? Same for the breath which is mulitplied by the human reproduction system.
That brings us to anonther issue: Animals have breath too. The flood story cleary writes about animals with breath in their nostrils drowning. Is it a coincidence the creation itself uses the exact same words? (breath/nostril)
I guess it depends whether you think the breath of God and the breath of life to be the same thing. And, if they are, what was Jesus doing with his disciples?
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
I think the above verse shows a strong connection between that breath and becoming alive.
The breath came from God's lungs so doesn't that mean that breath was from God.
IF they are not the same who gave life? Satan? Darwin?
Generally speaking: Translators did a bad job in that area. Several Hebrew words are translated to breath. Imo before we can seriously discuss this we should have correct translations of those words.
Clearly the resurrected Christ was breathing upon already living [but spiritually dead] humans. He tells them to receive the Holy Spirit. This fulfills this scripture:
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a quickening spirit. 1 Cor 15:45
And this:
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
And this:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
--John 3:6
There are some religions that worship the breath, but that is not what is happening here.
Were those spirits really dead? Or sleeping? Or imprisoned by veils?
For me, it's six of one, half a dozen of another.
The point is, you can't get there from here without Jesus.
We see a two part process.
John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
--Luke 3:16
After Jesus breathes on them and tells them to receive the Holy Spirit, he tells them..
(Acts 1: 4-5) "Do not leave Jerusalem but
wait for the promise of the Father, which you
have heard Me speak about. For John baptised
with water but in a few days you will
be baptised with the Holy Spirit."
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever--
--John 14:16
We see now the Spirit lands on them as a mantle in the upper room.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. Acts 2
They are filled with the Holy Spirit, as well, and are now like the ark of the covenant, with beaten gold both inside and outside, covering both sides of the wood.
They are prepared now to do the works of God.
For the Kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1 Cor 4:20
"power"
G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2012, 09:29:31 AM
Clearly the resurrected Christ was breathing upon already living [but spiritually dead] humans. He tells them to receive the Holy Spirit. This fulfills this scripture:
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a quickening spirit. 1 Cor 15:45
And this:
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
And this:
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
--John 3:6
There are some religions that worship the breath, but that is not what is happening here.
Here's a thought.......one is a house, the other is the occupant of that house. He sort of built it (soul), so He could come, in visibility. The soul was given life, but it can't quicken life as the Spirit does. One receives seed, the other gives seed. One was created, one always existed. The first Adam was created, the last Adam creates.
For this reason, one is feminine in nature, one is masculine in nature, which is how we are made in His image.
IMO, When Jesus breathed on His disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit"- I believe He was illustrating a parable. He had not yet ascended to the Father. When Peter preaches the first message on the day of Pentecost he says that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father "where He received the Holy Spirit and poured forth this which you do now see and hear"(Acts 2). The Comforter had not yet come. Jesus said earlier in John's gospel , "Rejoice that I go to my Father because the Comforter will come(paraphrase)". Also,"He that believes in me, out of his innermost being will gush forth rivers of living water...This He spoke of the Spirit whom those who believe should receive.....But the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified(Jn 7)......and"This is that which was prophesied by the prophet Joel, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh"(Acts 2)
IMO This particular dispensation of the Spirit is uniquely spoken of and too clearly identified in too many places to be some analogous fuzzball of maybes and could be's. It is clearly a distinct manifestation of God apart from, or better perhaps, in addition too, either the breath of life given to all men, or even the spirit of life that indwells those who believe- The first thing that Paul asks the disciples of John(Acts 19) is, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed?" To which they answered, "We never even heard of a holy spirit".
Similarly, Apollos, having only the baptism of John, demonstrated powerfully from the scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah. Priscilla and Aquilla showed Apollos the whole gospel, incorporating I am sure, baptism in water into the name of Jesus Christ, and the baptism in the Holy Spirit, as declared by Peter on the day of Pentecost.
To me, there is NO DOUBT that the spirit of God dwelled within the disciples of John the Baptist that Paul met, and also in Apollos, and definitely also in the 12- even before the time Jesus breathes on them in John 20....as John says in his epistle "No one can call Jesus Lord but by the Holy Spirit".
What I believe we are talking about are different levels of, or depths of experience of, the Spirit of God in whom all men "live and move and have their being"(Acts 17).
That being said, I think that in John 20 Jesus was simply illustrating the nature of the experience they were to receive- His breath upon, within, and overflowing from them on the day of Pentecost, this being an experience of fulness in the spirit of God previously unavailable to men(except perhaps the prophets) and now only available to believers in Jesus Christ.....and even more than that, only to believing "disciples of Jesus". :2c:
Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2012, 04:01:42 AM
Quote from: SkyOverCloudNed on June 14, 2012, 03:48:46 AM
And God breathed His breath of life into that pile of molded clay and it became a living soul. The wording seemsquite emphatic, I can't argue with the fact that it takes clay and God's breath of life to create a living soul. Nowhere does it say otherwise and if it did then it would seem scripture would be contradicting itself making itself out to be a hypocritical lie.
You are, of course, talking about Adam. Yet, no where else do we see that description of God deliberately and specifically breathing into his creation, save one place in the New Testament. Are we to assume that something that is not described for Eve or anyone else actually happened?
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
--John 20:22
it takes dust and God's breath of life to create a living soul.
all living creatures have a soul.
nephesh = soul
apparently, He did breath His breath of life into all creations/creatures and that is...what? Millions? Would Moses even have had that many years just to fatten the Genesis Creation account? Would it have been necessary? Might it have swayed, say, the unbelievers, evolutionists, etc?
life = soul. Hebrew. nephesh, as in verses: Gen_1:21, Gen_1:24, Gen_1:30; Gen_2:7, Gen_2:19; Gen_9:4, Gen_9:5, Gen_9:5, Gen_9:10, Gen_9:12, Gen_9:15, Gen_9:16. Lev_11:46,
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
creature = soul. Hebrew. nephesh
Quote from: Cardinal on June 13, 2012, 11:15:58 AM
Man is a soul who has a spirit, and lives in a body.
i'll buy that--is, not has, a soul, beyond that only those IN CHRIST have a spirit, plus The Holy Spirit
Eve was Adam's stony heart,
no sense, scripture book chapter verse?
God always multiplies by division and He's the only one that can do it that way.
no sense, scripture book chapter verse?
Death = division, and life comes out of death, it's a tool for Him to use. Unless a grain of wheat fall to the ground and dies (division of soul and spirit), it abideth alone, but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit (multiplication). We decrease, He increases.
far too much earthly metaphysical psychobabble...in plain scripture, book, chapter, verse--please!
Quotethis is all TO and FOR the JEWS--NOT this IN Christ
Ezekiel 11:19 KJV
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze. 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed ; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die , O house of Israel?
Eze. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Revelation 2:17 KJV
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone Quote
NOT IN SCRIPTURE__NOT GOD's BUT MAN"S UNQUALIFIED OPINION---(CLEAN VIRGIN SOUL THAT COMES DOWN FROM ABOVE = EVERY GOOD AND PERFECT GIFT COMES FROM ABOVE),
and in the stone a new name (NAME MEANS NATURE, A NEW SPIRIT = NEW NATURE)
written , which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
stone. Greek. psephos. See Act_26:10. A white stone was known to the ancients as a "victory" stone.
That which is made to receive, receives seed, and that seed expresses its nature through that which was made to receive it. My two cents...
Ned I've tried to ignore you because I really don't have anything nice to say. You are a very opinionated person. Fine. But when it comes to Cardinal and what she writes it would be better for you to sit back and mull it over and pray for your eyes to be opened rather than spout out whatever you think is truth that you have not received from the Lord. Cardinal does not write of things she doesn't know. She writes what she receives from the Lord. Do yourself a favour and p ray for enlightenment before you type.
(So sorry jab...) :blush:
Quote from: Nedcreature = soul. Hebrew. nephesh
Ned I understand how the OT treats this word and applies it to animals as well as man. Am I to deduce from this that there is no difference between my dog and myself? It's true my dog is exceptional and a genius in the world of dogs, but is he qualitatively just like me? No. This was not said of dogs:
Behold, the man has become as one of us to know good and evil. Gen 3
We see a progressive revelation on these matters in the OT and the NT. NT talks of the body, soul, and spirit of man. A distinction is made in the NT between body and soul of man. Paul even makes a distinction about different types of bodies:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
--1 Cor 15
Of the seed given to us, Paul says:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.--1 Cor 15
So this is a complicated subject matter, such complication only increased by the very fact that we are being transformed and we shall be changed.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
--1 Cor 15
Quote from: lomarah on June 15, 2012, 10:05:47 AM
Ned I've tried to ignore you because I really don't have anything nice to say. You are a very opinionated person. Fine. But when it comes to Cardinal and what she writes it would be better for you to sit back and mull it over and pray for your eyes to be opened rather than spout out whatever you think is truth that you have not received from the Lord. Cardinal does not write of things she doesn't know. She writes what she receives from the Lord. Do yourself a favour and p ray for enlightenment before you type.
(So sorry jab...) :blush:
(Oooohhhh I have so much more I want to say... "psychobabble"... oooooohhhhhh..... I had better go do something....)
Hi Sky:
I've already told you that I appreciate your scholarly approach to the study of the Scriptures; but why not just share your findings without comparing/evaluating others' attempts at seeking truth. Each of us will answer to God for our individual misuse/abuse of the Scriptures that we "preach", "teach", "share"... and, of course, it is God who will give the increase to the love, to the truth, etc., that we individually "preach". "teach" , "share"... anna
I just realized my dog doesn't have an evil bone in his body.
Evil requires intent to do harm.
That makes my dog superior to me. :faint:
I think it's OK (and even necessary) to question (seek wisdom and discernment); "test all things, hold to that which is good [ideal]" I Thes. 5:21. Also, to even ask for scriptural relevance/support, etc. from each other (self included). I've been questioned about things I said, and realized I needed to search a little more/change my own view. We're all in process. There are thousands of doctrines and interpretations... "they searched the scriptures daily to see if those things were true" Acts 17:11
I believe it's also OK to either avoid getting caught up in different topics and posts, or to express how we feel about each others' posts and approach - as long as we're not judging/looking past our own beam. I've often failed to do so, but we all need to talk about such things - on all sides of the issues - with love and gentleness. Once again, posting "as I understand", "in my opinion", etc., is key. Thanks, James.
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2012, 04:56:49 PM
I just realized my dog doesn't have an evil bone in his body.
Evil requires intent to do harm.
That makes my dog superior to me. :faint:
Did you just notice that?
Dogs sleep, eat and play all day.
You work, worry and pay all day.
(http://www.gifandgif.eu/animated_gif/Dogs/Animated%20Gif%20Dogs%20%28102%29.gif)
Quote from: Molly on June 15, 2012, 04:56:49 PM
I just realized my dog doesn't have an evil bone in his body.
Evil requires intent to do harm.
That makes my dog superior to me. :faint:
I believe dogs are the most amazing creatures.
They give you, unconditional love at all times.
"To err is human; to forgive, canine."
You guys speak for yourselves. Ours is an evil chihuahua that will bite your face off.
Quote from: jabcat on June 15, 2012, 11:19:37 PM
You guys speak for yourselves. Ours is an evil chihuahua that will bite your face off.
Eeek I hate chihuahuas!!! They scare me!!! LOL
(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/7/19/37b0ecee-39e2-4fc8-ac90-b3e06ea1e3b9.jpg)
OMG do you see why those things scare me??? They are CRAZY!!!
Somebody ought to breed them with bats........ then take over the WORLD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA!
Quote from: eaglesway on June 16, 2012, 05:16:41 AM
Somebody ought to breed them with bats........ then take over the WORLD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA!
:mshock:
HAHAHAHAHAHA I almost woke up my son cracking up to that, thanks eaglesway LOL!!!
Quote from: eaglesway on June 16, 2012, 05:16:41 AM
Somebody ought to breed them with bats........ then take over the WORLD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA!
BEHOLD!
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/11/21/129033025932297826.jpg)
WINGS!!!
Oh my poor son hahahaha
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 16, 2012, 11:34:27 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 16, 2012, 05:16:41 AM
Somebody ought to breed them with bats........ then take over the WORLD HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA!
BEHOLD!
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2009/11/21/129033025932297826.jpg)
BATHUAHUA!!!!AGGGGHHHHH!!!! I will be watching the sky with one eye today :o)
Are you a lizard?
No pics this time but there is a certain lizard that can point it's eyes in different directions.
One eye horizontally to see where it runs. One eye towards the sky looking for birds. Like those nasty eagles :-)
:hijacked: :eek: :prankster:
:NewB1:
If the the Temple represents our body there should be 3 parts at all time. So nothing can be added or removed.
But everything can be transformed...
[be ye] "transformed" --Rom 12:2
G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.
I think that transformation is only about the quality of the building materials. Not a complete redesign of the whole building.....
But the transformation can be so dramatic that it is a whole new building even if same design...
As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.
--Mat 17:2
"transformed"
G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.
Ok.
What's I'm trying to say and I think we largely agree on:
We, mankind, are a small wooden cabins with 3 rooms.
After transformation we are a huge mansion made of gold and diamonds. But still 3 rooms.
So recieving the HS would mean building an extra room which means we were 2 room buildings before or we become a 4 room building. Both are wrong imo. We always will be 3 room buildings.
That's why earlier in this thread I wrote the HS's function is (mainly) to clean the windows (glass darkly) and open the curtains (rip away veils)
Note: The materials mentioned are just examples without the intention pointing out any special meaning those materials may or may not have.
IMO receiving the Holy Spirit is like the dedication of Solomon's temple where the Spirit erupted in the innermost place, flooded out through the middle court, laying out all the Levites-and poured into the outer court as well. Still three rooms, but three rooms overflowing with glory.
So we are empty rooms?
None of those rooms were empty. Receiving something more does not diminish what was there before :o)
Then why does my belly always feel empty.
Answer that!
:-)
Maybe you need some French toast?
Do you know how many French died last year? All of them ate toast!
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2012, 08:18:24 PM
Then why does my belly always feel empty.
Answer that!
:-)
Those 40-day fasts will get you every time.!!!!!!
WINGS LOL
What about some Dutch toast then? :winkgrin:
I wonder if you are both correct. The rooms were never empty, and WW I think your'e correct about the HS's action being to do the unveiling. The unveiling comes at the same time as the infilling. Adding the fullness to what was there. I can't remember where but someone was talking about the word for creation (bara) being the fattening. The oil of gladness. On this mountain I will hold a feast of rich food, full of marrow, of aged wine well refined And on this mountain He will swallow up the face of the covering cast over all people, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
Is it not creating the new creation (or fattening, making full completing), when the veils are fully removed. All the fullness chose to dwell in Him... we (the temple) see in part but then we (the temple) will see face to face... in full(ness). Solomons temple being dedicated was a type, the HS descending on them, was the in part (very similar to Jesus' life on earth in power, anointing both has HS descend on them), the glorified risen Lord is the fullness, the fully unveiled, face to face.
Lowt 3875 covering comes from Luwt 3874 cast over
same word as Lot, abe's nephew
All use's of 3875
1 Sam 2:19
So the priest said, "The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom you killed in the Valley of Elah, there it is, wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod. If you will take that, take it . For there is no other except that one here." And David said, " There is none like it; give it to me."
1 Kin 19:13
So it was, when Elijah heard it , that he wrapped his face in his mantle and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave. Suddenly a voice came to him, and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?
The veil also covers the sword, a sword that cuts to the soul and spirit?
Heb 4
For if Joshua had given them rest (through the final veil into the Holy of Holies), He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest (Jesus the glorified Son of God) has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest (how through the final veil into the HOH), so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. (Here the sword comes at the same time as or at the junction of--->) 12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest (the high priest is the only one able to enter the HOH) who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God,
John sees Jesus with the sharp two edged sword on the Lords Day, in the Spirit, which is at/during/after? the unveiling (revelation 1:1)
Now back to the creation being the fattening. What if Gen 1 is the preview of the New Creation. He created them male and female. Then the lambkin was slain at the foundation of the world, which was him finishing his works. Notice up till this point everything is good, even very good, there is a rest/sabbath=>God and Jesus finishing their works, then we have Gen 2. And adam and eve, formed of the dust of the ground, the lambkin had just been slain, or as the seed falls to the ground, and then adam was formed out of that ground. Up until now there is no lack, but the down casting of the cosmos had just taken place at the slaying of the lambkin. Now adam is formed from the earth, that had the seed, plus the breath/Spirit. But now there is a lack, as God says it is not good for Adam to be alone. This is not very good, or good even.
Both creations signify the man being formed in the image of God. One being the new man very good, the other the man that it is not good to be alone. The reason why image(icon) can mean good or lacking.
Tying in with these threads:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/the-sixth-day-creation-of-man/msg136748/#new
http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/shadow-shadow-and-image/msg136742/#msg136742
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 17, 2012, 09:54:30 PM
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit,
Makes me think the death of Jesus was that sword.
The moment He died the curtain that divides 2 rooms was torn open.
...the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. Eph 6
So I guess you're right.
The Spirit removes the veil with the [sword of the] word of God.
Without the Spirit, the veil remains.
Yes, even today when they read Moses' writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
--2 Cor 3:15
2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. 2 Cor 3:15
2 Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
... he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Rom 2:29
The Spirit does the circumcision of the heart.
I am #) A body of flesh with a genetic code
that can be traced to my Mother and Father.
I am #) A soul that has the ability to think and feel and remember.
Think to reason, remember to discern and feel to have community.
I am #) A spirit, as a spirit I started as a seed similar to above.
My parents and the world did there job of burying my spirit.
With the teaching of good and bad.
My flesh and soul learned the wisdom of the world good or bad.
My flesh and soul conspired with my parents and the world
to keep my spirit a seed or at least asleep.
If my spirit was to be alive or awake with the knowledge
that my flesh and soul had. God would surly kill me.
I played games with myself to keep God unaware.
As the wind blows.
So did one day the holy spirit come by and dwelled with my spirit
and woke my spirit up and my spirit knew God .
My spirit comforted my body and soul.
My spirit told my body and soul everything was ok with God
because of what Jesus did .
My body and soul were so entrenched in the teachings of good and bad.
That even today my spirit has call to on the holy spirit
for help in convincing my body and soul that every thing
is ok between me and God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 17, 2012, 10:14:59 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on June 17, 2012, 09:54:30 PM
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit,
Makes me think the death of Jesus was that sword.
The moment He died the curtain that divides 2 rooms was torn open.
Amen....... Exactly! "I am determined to kno nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified"...... "If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"........"For this reason God gave Hime the name above every name....." EXACTLY! EXACTLY!
Quote from: hopingpriest on June 04, 2011, 10:24:04 PM
What do you think?
Is He in everyone? I mean everyone?
Could it be that when Holy Spirit was given to diciples in pentecost, it was actually given to whole humankind, to everyone?
Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit, but are not aware of that they do?
I feel in my heart that that might be true.
Church is there to help people to become aware of that god allready is with them?
This scripture seems pretty specific that's it's only believers who have the Holy Spirit in them.
John 7:39 Now He said this about the Spirit, which those
who believed in Him, were about to get (for the Pure Spirit hadn't been
given yet, because Yesu hadn't been glorified yet).
I am #) A body of flesh with a genetic code
that can be traced to my Mother and Father.
You are my own flesh and blood
I am #) A soul that has the ability to think and feel and remember.
Think to reason, remember to discern and feel to have community.
All the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said,
"We are your own flesh and blood.
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul
and with all your strength.
I am #) A spirit, as a spirit I started as a seed similar to above.
My parents and the world did there job of burying my spirit.
With the teaching of good and bad.
The LORD your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws;
carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul.
My flesh and soul learned the wisdom of the world good or bad.
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him
My flesh and soul conspired with my parents and the world
to keep my spirit a seed or at least asleep.
We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature,
but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
If my spirit was to be alive or awake with the knowledge
that my flesh and soul had. God would surly kill me.
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim
and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
I played games with myself to keep God unaware.
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit,
explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.
As the wind blows.
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
So did one day the holy spirit come by and dwelled with my spirit
and woke my spirit up and my spirit knew God.
who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ
and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.
We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
My spirit comforted my body and soul.
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking,
but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
My spirit told my body and soul everything was ok with God
because of what Jesus did .
My body and soul were so entrenched in the teachings of good and bad.
That even today my spirit has call to on the holy spirit for help in convincing my body and soul.
For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking,
but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,
That every thing is ok between me and God.
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let the one who hears say,
"Come!" Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
Well put, dago--I too stumble over patterns of good/bad thinking about myself and sometimes it is almost imossible to believe God is ok with me. Praise God that the HS convicts us of our righteousness in Christ.
Quote from: Deena on July 20, 2012, 10:41:15 PM
Well put, dago--I too stumble over patterns of good/bad thinking about myself and sometimes it is almost imossible to believe God is ok with me. Praise God that the HS convicts us of our righteousness in Christ.
Yes we are all convicts
Well, I think I've been given things not considered(or studied) before. Haven't read most of this topic, but a couple verses to list:
John 1
4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
It says He gives them the power(ability) to become the Sons of God. It does not say that was not there before they received Him. It says the darkness did not comprehend the light, not that there was no light. And, it says that He lights EVERY MAN, not just those who received Him.
Please note, I still don't see this meaning that everyone is saved already. You still have to call and believe on His name, etc. But it seems that does not mean He does things only with certain people. How else would God restrain the world of evil? Physically? No, you don't see people doing acts of evil, then suddenly freezing(well, sometimes this does happen by Angels).
They stop because they know it is wrong! How do they know that? Who convicted them? Themselves? No, because they are in darkness! The Spirit did that. There is a growing problem I have with there being "no consciousness in the Spirit." I am finding more and more witnesses that say otherwise. It is only traditions of man that had me believe that.
What about miracles, where God uses even people other than believers? Who else told them what to do, or healed them? They may not comprehend the light shining on them, or know where it came from, or who convicts them of wrong. That does not negate the light shining on them though.
Maybe the secret is the Holy Spirit vs. just the Spirit. One sanctifies, etc. the person, and the other God uses on people, but in more limited ways, until they are a believer. Then they are sanctified, etc.
Didn't want to make the first post longer, so here is the other passage to include:
Psalm 139
1You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.
5You hem me in behind and before,
and you lay your hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.
7Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
On verse 1, only the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit?
Romans 8
27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.
1 Corinthians 2
10these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
I just remembered, when I said "How do they know that? Who convicted them?" this verse comes to mind:
Genesis 3
11And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"