Holy Spirit in everyone?

[Molly]

Good, amen!  We don't need to just "turn over a new leaf" or "change our mind".  We need Him to visit us with a Divine Visitation and renew us from the inside out.  (vs. the Inclusion message, "having a form of godliness but denying the POWER! thereof").

Amen again.   :thumbsup:

I'm not sure what 'inclusion message' is but we have to really want him [open the door], and we can't really want him unless the Father draws us, so it's really an exclusion message, unless you understand the plan for the ages.

[jabcat]

Now you got me going - Amen! again!   So right on.

(Inclusion is Carleton Pearson [and some others, including UR'ers] that say "I'm OK, you're OK - Methodist or Muslim, come on in, we'll have a big time together.  We're all headed to heaven anyway, don't worry about it, we're all brothers and sisters, blah, blah, blah").   

"Marvel not when I say you must be born again".  - Jesus

[Pierac]

What do you think?
Is He in everyone? I mean everyone?
Could it be that when Holy Spirit was given to diciples in pentecost, it was actually given to whole humankind, to everyone?
Could it be that everyone has Holy Spirit, but are not aware of that they do?

I feel in my heart that that might be true.

Church is there to help people to become aware of that god allready is with them?

You are mistaken, Luke writes concerning the Ministry of John the Baptist that: "It is he who will go as a forerunner before him and the Spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for Lord" (Luke 1:17).  The Virgin Mary is told that "[the] Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadowed you" (Luke 1:35).  And concerning the promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit the risen Jesus predicts that the disciples are to wait in Jerusalem where they "shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). In these three Lukan passages we observe the interplay of the concepts of "power" and "spirit" precisely as found in the Old Testament.

This Hebrew concept is further seen in the famous passage where the apostle Paul burst out in praise to God.  He does this by quoting from Elijah 40:13: "Oh, the depths of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and unfathomable His ways! [Now his Old Testament quotation] For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became his counselor?" (Rom.11:33-34)

But when we compare his source in Isaiah we note that Paul has changed it slightly.  Isaiah actually wrote, "Who has directed the spirit of the Lord, or as His counselor has informed him?"

What we see here is a typical Hebrew understanding: To have the mind of the Lord is to be directed by the Spirit.  There are many New Testament examples of this interplay between "mind" and "spirit."  In Philippians 2, Paul wants the Christian to be "of the same mind," which is to be "united in spirit, intent on one purpose"(v.2).  On a personal level, how may I know that I am filled with the Holy Spirit?  The answer is when I have the mind of God, the attitude that He has, the values that his word and espouses and above all the truth which it teaches!
Another passage of interest in this vein is 1 Corinthians 2:10-12.

1Co 2:10  these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who [Greek neuter "which"] is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

Here "the spirit of the man which is in him" is paralleled with "the Spirit of God" which is from God. It is quite clear that a person's spirit is not a separate person from himself, but is rather his/her own mind and inner thoughts. Just so, "the Spirit of God" refers to God's inner and personal centre, His mind and word, even His self-consciousness.

Spirit = Power = Mind = Presence = Breath = Wind = Word

It is quite evident that in the apostle's mind to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct our lives. This is simply to say that in John chapters 14 to 16, "the Spirit" that will come to help the apostles will be the post- resurrection revelation of Christ's message directed by the risen Christ to the world through the apostles.

The acid test as to whether I have "Jesus in my heart" is whether I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. Indeed, I have the Father and the Son. Hence Paul's vigorous warning that if anyone fails to demonstrate the presence of the words of Christ in his life, he is devoid of understanding (1 Tim 6:3).

I do not see this as given to the whole of humankind at this time....  Just something to think about!  :wink:

Paul

[Beloved Servant]

John1:3;
"All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made."

Colossians 1:17;
And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

If these Scriptures are true than the Holy Spirit is in everyone or we would not consist.

[Beloved Servant]

1 Corinthians 8:6;
yet we have but one God, the Father, who is the source of all things and for whose service we exist, and but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom we and all things exist.

[Beloved Servant]

Romans 11:36; For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

[Molly]

Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:


Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

[AbbasChild]

Here are some good articles on this:


From 'With" into "In"
One of the responses to our discussion of Papa's touch goes as follows:

Hi Baxter,
I was wondering what do you base your statement ~"the Holy Spirit is in the little girl"? The little girl who has never heard of Jesus and this can be applied to adults who have do not believe/worship Jesus. Would it not be more accurate to state that the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Jesus)is WITH the girl but not yet indwelling her? As I understand it, the Holy Spirit indwells believers and unites us to Christ. And the Holy Spirit is with everyone else drawing us all to Jesus. (This comes from Dr. Gary Deddo, your classmate)
We are connected to Jesus now in the same way we WERE connected to Adam. So that is why Jesus says that "whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me." I'd appreciate your comments. Thanks.

To my mind there are several critical issues here that need to be addressed, although who is competent to speak about such things. The first concerns the basis for saying that the Holy Spirit is 'in' not merely 'with' the abused little girl who allegedly has never heard of Jesus? Presumably there is an invisible line somewhere that the Holy Spirit cannot cross without our faith. The second has to do with the question, does the Holy Spirit unite us 'to' Christ? The third concerns the statement that 'we are connected to Jesus now in the same way we were connected to Adam'?

The fundamental issue here is the identity of Jesus Christ, for his very identity is the light of the world, and as such speaks volumes about the Father and the Spirit and their relationship with us, among thousands of other things. While we cannot possibly begin to cover all that needs to be said here, I will give you what seems to me to be the three foundational realities about Jesus. First, Jesus is the Father's one and only and eternal Son, who for us and for our salvation 'came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man,' as the Creed says. Second, Jesus is the only one who is anointed with the Holy Spirit as an abiding reality and without measure. Third, Jesus Christ is the Creator and sustainer of all things. As the apostles testify, he is the One in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are constantly upheld (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:16ff; Hebrews 1:1-3, and see earlier blog). Contrary to what many of us have heard all our lives, we do not make Jesus part of our world; he has made us a part of his.

In the deistic West, however, if we ever think of Christ as the Creator (and I wonder how many of you have actually heard a sermon on Christ as the Creator) we think of Jesus as the 'source' of our existence, but not as the one who 'constantly sustains' us. It is as though Jesus created us and gave us something akin to a life-battery, then he stepped back leaving us to live like an Eveready Energizer Bunny. Creation, in this framework, is like a soap bubble blown into the wind by a child. We could say that the child created the soap bubble, but once the bubble detaches from the wand there is no ongoing relationship with the wand or the child. It is this disconnect, which seems to be etched into the Western mind, that is the problem. In such a scenario Jesus creates us, gives us the life-battery, and then steps back, and he could theoretically die and we would all keep on going and going until our life-battery runs out of power. What happens to Jesus after creation and the giving of the life-battery is of no necessary consequence to us or to creation. Such a notion is a far cry from the New Testament which contends that Jesus is not only the source of our existence by way of a past gift (the life-battery), but he is the ongoing source and sustainer of our continued existence, so much so that if he withdrew himself from us, the human race and indeed the cosmos would vanish in an instant.

Note carefully these words from John Calvin's Commentary on the Gospel of John, as he comments on John 1:4 and the phrase, "in him was life."

So far, he has taught us that all things were created by the Word of God. He now likewise attributes to Him the preservation of what had been created; as if he were saying that in the creation of the world His power did not simply suddenly appear only to pass away, but that it is visible in the permanence of the stable and settled order of nature–just as Heb. 1.3 says that He upholds all things by the Word or command of His power. Moreover, this life can either be referred at large to inanimate creatures, which do live in their own way though they lack feeling, or expounded only of the animate. It matters little which you choose, for the simple meaning is that the Word of God was not only the fount of life to all creation, so that those which had not yet existed began to be, but that His life-giving power makes them remain in their state. For did not His continued inspiration quicken the world, whatsoever flourishes would without doubt immediately decay or be reduced to nothing. In short, what Paul ascribes to God, that in Him we have our being and move and live (Acts 17.28), John declares to be accomplished by the blessing of the Word. It is God, therefore, who gives us life; but He does so by the eternal Word. (John Calvin, The Gospel According to John, translated by T. H. L. Parker, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company), 1988, pp. 10-11).

Following the apostles, Calvin is at pains to point out that the creation and the continued existence of all things are completely dependent upon the Son of God. What then are we to make of the fact that it was this Son who became human? What happened to his relationship with his Father and the Spirit? Did he break ties with his Father and the Holy Spirit when he became a human being? Did he dissolve his relationship with the human race and all creation in his incarnation? Of course not.

This is a point of capital importance. For already in the very identity of Jesus Christ—the Father's eternal Son, the One anointed in the Holy Spirit, and the Creator, in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are sustained—we are speaking of One in whom the Father, the Holy Spirit, the human race, and all creation are not only connected, but are together in relationship. For St. Athanasius, the deepest problem of the fall of Adam was the way it threatened this relationship, not the relationship between Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit, but the relationship between Jesus, the human race and all creation. As Athanasius said, creation was on the road to ruin and was lapsing back into non-being.

Into this perilous situation the Father's Son became incarnate through the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary to do the very thing that was impossible for us—reestablish relationship. Through his incarnate life, death, resurrection and ascension Jesus lived out his own sonship as a human being inside the fallen world of Adam, therein reestablishing real relationship with fallen humanity. As he lived out his own sonship, and as he reestablished relationship with fallen humanity, he was at the same time including us in his own relationship with his Father and the Holy Spirit.

Astonishingly, Jesus intentionally used, as T. F. Torrance says, our sin against him as the way to establish deeper relationship with us. It was not the Father or the Holy Spirit who rejected, cursed and abandoned Jesus; it was the human race. We condemned and damned him. As we cursed Jesus and damned him, and as he deliberately accepted our condemnation and bore our scorn, he was entering into the deepest possible relationship with us in our sin and odious brokenness. In suffering from us, in bearing our bitter rejection, in dying in the arms of our judgment and condemnation, Jesus met us at our absolute worst.

Such a relationship, it seems to me, stretches any notion of 'with' into 'in.' Even on a purely human level it is difficult to imagine a person being 'with' another person and not being 'in' them in some sense. It is even more unimaginable when we are speaking of the One in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are sustained becoming a human being and being 'with' us to the degree that he became what we are, and deliberately, astonishingly and graciously bore our scorn and rejection.

What is left outside of this relationship? Did Jesus leave something of himself behind? Is there something of us, some particle of sin, some dimension of our brokenness that was withheld as we crucified him? The cross, or better yet, Jesus on the cross, accepting and bearing our bizarre judgment and its bitterness is nothing short of Jesus making contact with and overcoming the original sin, thus reestablishing or recreating his relationship with us and his rightful place as the One in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are sustained. Put another way, as Jesus allowed the human race to place our sin upon him, to reject and curse him, he was translating 'with' into 'in.'

Now, it must be emphasized that as Jesus became what we are, and as he lived out his own sonship and anointing inside our fallen world, and as he deliberately accepted being condemned and damned by us, he was bringing into relationship everything that he is as the Father's Son, and the anointed One, with everything that we are in our fallen brokenness. In Jesus Christ, the incarnate, crucified, resurrected and ascended Son of the Father and the anointed One, the very life of the Trinity has set up shop 'in' the very core of our fallen human existence. Adoption is not a theory. It is the real world—even if we cannot see it or believe it, yet. For when Jesus accepted us as we are and bore our bitter judgment, he was not alone—he brought his Father and the Holy Spirit with him. As St. Irenaeus said, in Jesus' life and death the Holy Spirit "accustomed" himself "to dwell in the human race" (Irenaeus, Against the Heresies, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, volume 1 (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Erdmann's Publishing Company, reprinted 1987), III.17, 1, see also III.20.3).

Jesus is thus the One in whom his Father, the Holy Spirit, the fallen human race and all creation are not only related, but rightly related, and rightly related in the most profound way imaginable. "In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you" (John 14:20)

Is the abused little girl, who has theoretically never heard of Jesus, included in Jesus? Of course. Is she included in Jesus' relationship with his Father? Of course. Is she included in Jesus' anointing in the Holy Spirit? Of course. What is the basis for saying that the Holy Spirit is 'in' not merely 'with' the abused little girl? Jesus Christ. For he has included her (and all of us), and Jesus never travels alone. So unless we are prepared to posit some kind of breach between Jesus and his Father and the Holy Spirit, or that some level of our humanity and its fallenness was absent as we damned Jesus, then he has included the fallen world in his relationship with his Father, and in his relationship with the Holy Spirit. 'With' simply does not have the depth to describe such a relationship.

Now, is it accurate to speak of the Holy Spirit as uniting us to Christ? My answer is 'Yes,' as long as we understand that this union happened in Jesus' life and death. The Holy Spirit united us with Christ, or better, united Christ with us, or better yet, worked in and through Jesus to reestablish his union with us in Jesus' own existence. To be sure, the union was the fruit of the Spirit, but it happened in Jesus, not at some subsequent stage in us and in our history, and certainly not by our faith. Where a given person is in his or her understanding Christ's union with us is another matter, but our blindness or enlightenment has nothing to do with the fact of Christ's relationship and union with us in the Spirit.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit is not an external event, for in Jesus, the Spirit has made his way into the living room of our blind souls. It is in the very center of our created and fallen being that the Holy Spirit witnesses to our innermost beings and begins to free us to live in the inconceivable world of our adoption in Christ. For while it is impossible for us to push the weeds of our fallen minds to the side, and thus to believe in anything other than what we perceive through our blindness, Jesus has penetrated our darkness and brought the Spirit of truth with him. The Holy Spirit is not a spectator, watching from the outside, giving abstract and external instructions that he hopes that we will apply to our lives. He meets us in the corridors of our fallen souls, bearing witness to the 'unbelievable' world of Jesus and his Father. He works within us to help us see through our own blindness to know who God is in Christ and who we are in him, and in this way to help us take baby steps against our own judgment and alienation.

Inside, at the core of our being, the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirits (See Romans 8:16.) that it is true, that we are sons and daughters of the Father himself in Jesus, crying the exclusive words of Jesus, "Abba! Father!" within us. "And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!'" (Galatians 4:4.).

On the basis of Jesus Christ, and in the truth of what he has done for and with and to the human race in his own incarnate life, death, resurrection and ascension, we proclaim to every person that they have been adopted, included in Jesus' relationship with his Father and in his relationship with the Holy Spirit. And in Jesus' name we call them to walk in the light of Jesus, promising joy and peace in believing, and warning of continued misery in unbelief. We pray to the Holy Spirit, who in Jesus, has accustomed himself to dwell in the fallen human race, to reveal Jesus 'in' every person so that they may know the truth and be set free by it.

The Holy Spirit united Jesus with us and us with Jesus in Jesus' life, death, resurrection and ascension. And in Jesus' life the Spirit accustomed himself to dwell in us. Both, I take to be living realities established in the grace of the Triune God prior to our faith and repentance. Within us the Spirit works to bring us to hear Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, to see and encounter Jesus himself within our own brokenness, so that we can begin to discern good from evil, light from darkness, life from death, and heaven from hell. In such encounters we are summoned and freed to take baby steps of faith in Jesus and his world, and to turn from our own darkness. Such baby steps give more room for the Spirit's life and power to operate within us. It frees us to relate to and to participate in Jesus' anointing in the Holy Spirit. It is all an ongoing relational reality, which began in Jesus' incarnation and continues throughout our lives, and one would assume throughout eternity.

As to whether "we are connected to Jesus now in the same way we were connected to Adam" let me say that Jesus is the Father's eternal son, not a creature like Adam, and Jesus is the one in and through and by and for whom all things were created, and are sustained and reconciled. According to Paul, Adam was a mere type, a foreshadowing of the One to come (see Romans 5:14). As a creature, not the creator and sustainer of all things, Adam's connection with the human race, whatever it was, falls under the heading of this foreshadowing, and points ahead of itself to the real connection in Jesus Christ. So, no we are not connected to Jesus in the same way we were connected to Adam. Adam's connection hinted at the real union coming in the incarnate and crucified Creator-Son and anointed One.

[AbbasChild]

And the follow up:


Identity and Experience
In the plethora of responses to my last blog I could not help but notice that one of you cited a few verses, but did not explicitly counter the Christological affirmations. In citing these verses are you suggesting that Jesus is not the Father's eternal Son incarnate, and not the only one anointed in the Holy Spirit without measure, and not the Creator in and through and by and for whom all things were created and are constantly sustained, and not the reconciler of his creation? Do these verses disprove the central affirmations of the Christian faith? As far as I am concerned these affirmations were non-negotiable for the early Church, and functioned as the heart of the apostolic and patristic hermeneutic, or mind. The Christian community was and is called to take 'every thought captive to the obedience of Christ' (See 2Corintians 10:5) and to "see to it that no one takes us captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made full..." (Colossians 2:8ff).

The first order of business in taking these commands seriously is to answer the question, who is Jesus Christ? The second is to rethink everything we thought we knew about God, about creation, about ourselves and history, the past, present and future in the light of Jesus. He is the truth. The ministry of Perichoresis is committed to these two callings, faltering as we may be.

Or, in citing these verses are you wrestling with the biblical witness? Are you asking, given who Jesus is—the Father's Son, the anointed One, and the Creator, sustainer and reconciler of all things, and as such the One who has included the human race in his own life—what are 'we' to make of verses which, as they are translated in certain translations, seem to contradict the fundamental affirmations? This, I take, to be what you were asking, and rightly so. It is a biblical issue. Any self-respecting bible scholar has to wrestle with how the meaning of a specific verse fits into the larger meaning or 'scope,' as Athanasius called it, of holy scripture. First, we ask the Holy Spirit to give us the eyes and perspective of Jesus himself. Second, we need to go back to the early Church fathers, for I suspect they have already answered all of these issues, as the Arians in particular were not shy about highlighting 'problematic' verses. Third, it is always a good idea to study the original languages, and then read several different translations.

For example, 1Corinthians 2:14 in the NASB reads, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised." This happens to be a verse that I use all the time. Your quoted translation says, "the man without the Spirit." This is a great example of how the translator's own theology figures into the translation, and an affirmation of the need to read different translations. Another example is Ephesians 4:17ff. "This is say therefore and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart." I think this is a great translation, with the exception of the word 'excluded,' which should be 'alienated.' Paul is saying, because of the futility of their minds and because of their darkened understanding, they are alienated from the life of God, which is shared with them in Jesus. Bringing their confusion into Jesus' relationship with them poisons their participation in the life of God. So don't be like the pagans, give up your own vision, and let Jesus teach you about his Father, receive His love and live.

Luke 11:13, "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven "give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" The context here is about the goodness of the Father, and thus the admonition to ask and seek and knock, and not just once, but as an ongoing relationship rooted in Jesus' Father's goodwill toward us. If we, being evil, know how to give good gifts to our children, how much more does my Father (the fountain of all goodness,) know how to give the Holy Spirit himself, to those who ask Him? Apparently, in citing this verse, you are troubled by the word 'ask,' as if to assume that unless we ask Jesus' Father we will not have the Holy Spirit. Yet without Jesus sharing himself and particularly his parrhesia (freedom, courage, boldness, assurance) with us, and without the Holy Spirit bearing witness in our innermost beings that we are children of the Father in Jesus, we would never come out of the bushes and asks the Father for anything. This is about relationship. Pentecost is first. In and through Jesus, the Father has poured out the Holy Spirit upon all flesh. As my friend Ken Blue says, our response to the Holy Spirit is to say, 'thank you Holy Spirit, we will have more please.' This is also our ongoing response to the Father and all his gifts in Jesus, and to Jesus and all that he is sharing with us. How thrilled the Father is when we takes sides with Jesus and the Spirit against our own darkened notions, and thus dare to say 'thank you' and ask for more.

Romans 8. The argument in the first part of Romans 8 parallels Galatians 3 and revolves around the question as to which way are we going to live, according to the flesh (kata sarka), or according to the Spirit (kata pneuma). The way of the flesh leads to death and misery. The way of the Spirit leads to life and peace. Paul is assuming that the Spirit is at work through Jesus in the Romans, and in us. The question is not who has the Spirit of Christ or who doesn't, but which way are we going to live. Eugene Peterson, in The Message, has a take that is worth pursuing. "But if God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly be thinking more of yourself than of him. Anyone, of course, who has not welcomed this invisible but clearly present God, the Spirit of Christ, won't know what we are talking about. But for you who welcome him, in whom he dwells—even though you still experience all the limitations of sin—you yourself experience life on God's terms."

Likewise Peterson's translation of Jude 17-19 is worth careful reflection. "But remember, dear friends, that the apostles of our Master, Jesus Christ, told us this would happen: 'In the last days there will be people who don't take these things seriously anymore. They'll treat them like a joke, and make a religion of their own whims and lusts.' These are the ones who split churches, thinking only of themselves. There's nothing to them, no sign of the Spirit!"

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will "receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Jesus was baptized in the Spirit at the river Jordan did that mean that he did not have the Spirit prior to that moment? The coming of the Holy Spirit to Jesus at Jordan was not a movement from absence to presence, but from presence to another kind of presence. It is relational, not spatial. I think we are safe to begin here and see where this leads in wrestling with this verse.

Here are a few other thoughts about the Holy Spirit. First, it strikes me that we need to think about the Holy Spirit's relationship in and with us relationally. He accustomed himself to dwell in us through Jesus, and that means through Jesus' suffering from our bizarre blindness. So the Spirit knows how to relate to us, the real us, the broken us, but being so profoundly blind we cannot cope with the sheer weight of his goodness and beauty. So he walks with us relationally, giving us space to make fools of ourselves, all the while addressing us in ways that reach us, and thus calling us to relate to Him as a person, and to give ourselves to participate in Jesus' life—step by step, moment by moment. Second, most of what I hear or read about the Holy Spirit is all but completely devoid of real relation to Jesus himself. It is as if Jesus died and did his part, and then went back to heaven. Then, on the basis of Jesus' death, the Holy Spirit comes to do his. But apparently they don't talk much, so the Holy Spirit has his own thing happening with us, instead of taking of the things of Jesus and relating them to us. There seems to be a remarkable devaluing of the fact that Jesus is the anointed one. He and he alone is anointed with the Holy Spirit, and without measure. Because we seem to have missed this, many seem to crave an anointing in the Spirit independent of Jesus' relationship with them, and seem to be craving something from the Spirit altogether different from Jesus' own life. As if it would ever cross the Holy Spirit's mind to operate independently of Jesus or to give us a gift other than Jesus himself. The gift given is Jesus—and all is and has in his relationship with his Father and the Holy Spirit. When you see this Jesus and see yourself included, you don't stop at a second or third blessing. Be bold. Live with expectation. Ask for more.

For serious study of the Bible, I recommend the New American Standard Bible, the Jerusalem Bible, the King James, the New English Bible, The Message, and J. B. Phillips' translation.

One person said, "He will not have an answer for those verses as most Perichoresis messages are taken from passages in the books of John, Ephesians, Colossians and a handful of other books. It seems the whole perichoresis message is built on a select few passages and many other 'difficult' passages are just never mentioned or ignored."

You speak as an authority on my references, but what you said I take as a high compliment. John, Ephesians and Colossians are reliable references. But you forgot Galatians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Hebrews and 1John and Romans, and Irenaeus, Athanasius, Hilary and the Cappadocian fathers, Calvin, Luther, Thomas Erskine, John MacLeod Campbell, George MacDonald, Karl Barth, C. S. Lewis, J. B. Torrance and T. F. Torrance. If these brothers have an issue with me then I should be hanged. Either way, it is always wise, as Proffessor James Torrance used to say, to read widely.

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:


Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Darkness is ignorance and lack of intimate understanding.

[Beloved Servant]

God speaks and dwells in the thick darkness.



Exodus 14:19-21 (Amplified Bible)

19 And the Angel of God Who went before the host of Israel moved and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before them and stood behind them,
20 Coming between the host of Egypt and the host of Israel. It was a cloud and darkness to the Egyptians, but it gave light by night to the Israelites; and the one host did not come near the other all night.
21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea, and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night and made the sea dry land; and the waters were divided.



Exodus 20:20-22 (Amplified Bible)

20 And Moses said to the people, Fear not; for God has come to prove you, so that the reverential fear of Him may be before you, that you may not sin.
21 And the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near to the thick darkness where God was.
22 And the Lord said to Moses, Thus shall you say to the Israelites, You have seen for yourselves that I have talked with you from heaven.


Deuteronomy 5:22-24 (Amplified Bible)

22 These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He spoke not again [added no more]. He wrote them on two tables of stone and gave them to me [Moses].
23 And when you heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders;
24 And you said, Behold, the Lord our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice out of the midst of the fire; we have this day seen that God speaks with man and man still lives.

[thinktank]

John1:3;
"All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made."

Colossians 1:17;
And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.

If these Scriptures are true than the Holy Spirit is in everyone or we would not consist.

The Holy spirit has no obligation to dwell in a unclean vessel.

The Spirit is there because of grace

Genesis 6:3
And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[thinktank]

Maybe there's a distinction between 'on' and 'in"? 

There will come a time when "For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea."  When every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus is Lord.  We are not yet there.  God is not yet All in All.  That appears to occur when all enemies are under His feet and Jesus hands things over to the Father.   Satan is still active, has not been bound or restored.  Jesus said "I stand at the door and knock...hear my voice, open the door, I will COME IN..."

As I understand, the church's responsibility is much, but includes proclaiming Jesus is the Savior of the world, and "whoever calls on the name of the Lord WILL BE saved".   The jailer asked, "sirs, what must I do to BE saved?"  They told him to believe upon Jesus.     Jesus said "marvel not when I say you must be born again" (spiritually reborn from above).  Many have a head knowledge.  The Holy Spirit convicts and calls individuals into a "heart experience", through faith God gives to believe on Jesus as Savior.  Not all now.  The ecclesia now, the rest later - each in his own order  (I Cor. 15:23).

I think this is the closest to the truth, especially the poured on, vs poured in or dwelling in the temple, given the variety of scriptures that speak of this.  :thumbsup:

[Beloved Servant]

God is Omnipresent.

He fills the universe in all its parts and is present everywhere at once.

Jeremiah 23:23,24;
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off?
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord.
Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

[Syndicated]

I had somewhat of a revelation the other day making dinner.  I passed it by my fiance who agreed with the concept...

Choosing to be born into the Sonship of God and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within is no more an option than choosing who you're born to in this world.  You can't choose your parents/family any more than you can choose to belong to God and have the Holy Spirit living within you.  The bible already says that it was HE who chose US, so in order for the HS not to be living in us isn't something we have the option to choose.

"It is finished!" - Jesus.

[WhiteWings]

Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:


Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The verse is about Hebrew expressions/idoms

Good eye=generous (nature)
Bad eye=stingy (nature)

[rosered]

Jesus himself tells us the HS is not in everyone:


Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The verse is about Hebrew expressions/idoms

Good eye=generous (nature)
Bad eye=stingy (nature)

Hi WW ,  so are you saying that  the good eye  is Christ nature
and the bad eye is  carnal nature ?
   My dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy  over who gets the  good stuff , lol  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Hi WW ,  so are you saying that  the good eye  is Christ nature
and the bad eye is  carnal nature ?

That's for the enlighted ones to decide. :idea2:
I just mentioned it because I think it gives greater understanding when we read with the mind of Jew that lived 2000 years ago.

My dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy  over who gets the  good stuff , lol  :HeartThrob:

That means you have a bad eye. You can't expect starved dogs to have good manners  :laughing7:

[rosered]

Hi WW ,  so are you saying that  the good eye  is Christ nature
and the bad eye is  carnal nature ?

That's for the enlighted ones to decide. :idea2:
I just mentioned it because I think it gives greater understanding when we read with the mind of Jew that lived 200 years ago.

You mean 2000  yrs  right LOL although  there are some Jewish minds  200 yrs ago that may still  have that same mind of 2000 years ago  :laughing7:

   

My dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy  over who gets the  good stuff , lol  :HeartThrob:

That means you have a bad eye. You can't expect starved dogs to have good manners  :laughing7:
[/quote]  lol  does it make me bad that they dont share ?  :mshock:  LOL

  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

You mean 2000  yrs  right

Yep. Editted my post.

My dogs are best buddies till feeding time , than they get real greedy  over who gets the  good stuff , lol  :HeartThrob:

That means you have a bad eye. You can't expect starved dogs to have good manners  :laughing7:

lol  does it make me bad that they dont share ?

You are so stingy you don't buy enough food for them. That's why they fight and you have a bad eye  :laughing7:


Doggy of a good eyed owner ===> (http://www.roflzoo.com/pics/072010/puppy-has-a-bone-big.jpg)

[rosered]

LOL , good one Bro T  :laughing7: 

  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Backing up a bit from the bone -

I asked earlier about reconciling "Behold I stand at the door and knock..open the door, I will come in..." with Jesus and or Holy Spirit already being present in everyone.

I thought this AM about Jesus saying He must go away so the Holy Spirit could COME...

Maybe someone has some really solid Biblical evidence, but right now I believe the Holy Spirit is definitely present, but that only those that are spiritually reborn are indwelled.  I could be wrong.  Again, the "lights every man" verse seems the most otherwise intrigueing to me, but right now I lean more toward 'not' in everyone, than 'is'.   :2c:

(Couldn't Holy Spirit be on people or situations, even direct what God chooses, and still not reside IN everyone?  Just a thought.)

[Cardinal]

I don't agree that the HS is in everyone yet.

But I do believe that [the unrevealed] Christ is in everyone, from Adam to the present.

That is the meaning of, Christ in you, the hope of glory.

:cloud9: From my point of view, that's what I'm saying too Molly, because I see Christ and the HS as one and the same.

I do find the "light in every man" type verses compelling.  But assume it's true that Christ is already in every man (which currently I don't fully believe to be right now).  How do you see Rev. 3:20  being reconciled?  "Behold I stand at the door and knock.  If any man hears my voice and opens the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me."  Also, I've been gone today and I haven't read back through the whole thread, but I really do hope/believe you're both still saying (and believing) that a person still needs to be saved, spiritually reborn from above as Jesus said.  Because otherwise, I strongly believe we're doing others a dis-service, who might otherwise be more open and willing to accept that they need to believe on Jesus for their salvation - rather than the (what I believe to be grave error) "Inclusion" message.   If the former is the case, we probably don't have a huge separation here, maybe more of a "degrees of understanding" rather than "basic/foundational doctrine".   Blessings.

:cloud9: Once again, for me, it's Him giving me things in a "reverse engineering" mindset. I was not convicted of sin, I TURNED within myself to Him and to cry out to God. At that moment, I bowed the knee. Once I started to read the next day when I woke up aware I was different, THEN I was convicted of sin, from reading the Word for the first time.

Four days later, under an incredible anointing, fasting, I went to a Baptist church. Everyone in there proclaimed to "be saved", but I knew by the Spirit on me, at least 4 weren't. Astonished, I asked my friend who took me, how this could be, since the Baptists taught salvation. By "their" definition of mouthing some words, they were "saved". By the Spirit's, they had not turned to Him in their heart, and there was still darkness upon the face of the waters.

As for what "open the door and knock" means, the phrase comes from a root word meaning to OPEN THE EYES. Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be opened. It is synonymous with rending the veil. If you think about it from a Hebrew mindset, our eyelids are a type of covering, and so as a "veil".

Like most everything in there, it has been used to conform to a doctrine of men's understandings of it, rather than the understanding given by the Spirit who gives by revealing thru the EXPERIENCE of the written Word. Which is how we are to KNOW, IF we go on to follow the Lord. This is how you can be resolute about what it says, because you have already EXPERIENCED what it DOES, and been given understanding as a by-product. Many of the things He has done with me, I could not define, until He gave me WHERE in the Word the experience WAS contained.

In the beginning of our walk, the Word defines or "fleshes out" the Spirit, so we can learn to recognize Him. Later as we learn to know Him BY HIS SPIRIT, the Spirit defines or "fleshes out" the Word. My  :2c:

[Syndicated]

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.  (NASB)

Phil 2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



The Holy Spirit is already at work in everyone... It's just a process of coming to fruition.

[jabcat]

Hi Syndicated.  I believe your verses :), but I don't see the absolute connection between the verses and the conclusion.  I personally believe most won't even be called in this lifetime, much less already indwelled with Holy Spirit.  Also, I'm questioning working 'on' vs. working 'in'... 

You know, it's an interesting topic, but probably as long as we proclaim Jesus is the Savior and encourage people to call on Him for salvation (Romans 10:13, whoever calls will be saved), that's the most important things.  :) James.