Holy Spirit in everyone?

[jabcat]

oh, i remembered something, sorry


:HeartThrob:


blessings :)

[Molly]

Then Jesus was speaking nonsense when He said "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN?  I don't think so, and though I've asked twice, I haven't seen anyone specifically address that verse. 

Cardinal answered it here:

As for what "open the door and knock" means, the phrase comes from a root word meaning to OPEN THE EYES. Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be opened. It is synonymous with rending the veil. If you think about it from a Hebrew mindset, our eyelids are a type of covering, and so as a "veil".

Lift up your heads, O gates! And lift them up, O ancient doors, that the King of glory may come in.
--Psa 24:9


"ancient"
H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

"doors"
H6607
פּתח
pethach
peh'-thakh
From H6605; an opening (literally), that is, door (gate) or entrance way: - door, entering (in), entrance (-ry), gate, opening, place.


24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
--Gen 3


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kzgVzg8nVk

:bgdance: :bgdance:

[Molly]

 1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.

2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

--Eze 44

[thinktank]

So one who is in darkness put a lid on top of their cup, preventing the spirit of God to pour into them, they hardened their hearts, Jesus was not pleased . But those who are open receive Him.

10 virgins, 5 had oil in their lamps, the others did not have any oil and asked them that had oil "give us your oil, for our lamps have gone out"

The ones without the oil could not meet with the groom.

[jabcat]

Then Jesus was speaking nonsense when He said "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I WILL COME IN?  I don't think so, and though I've asked twice, I haven't seen anyone specifically address that verse. 

Cardinal answered it here:

As for what "open the door and knock" means, the phrase comes from a root word meaning to OPEN THE EYES. Paul prayed that the eyes of our understanding would be opened. It is synonymous with rending the veil. If you think about it from a Hebrew mindset, our eyelids are a type of covering, and so as a "veil".

I don't see that here;

SHOULD-BE-UP-OPENING
should-be-opening
thn
tEn
G3588
t_ Acc Sg f
THE
thuran
G2374
n_ Acc Sg f
DOOR
eiseleusomai
G1525
vi Fut midD 1 Sg
I-SHALL-BE-INTO-COMING I-shall-be-entering
pros
G4314
Prep
TOWARD
auton
G846
pp Acc Sg m
him

and what about the other 2 verses?


Also, here's an example of what I'm talking about, with other verses not being as clearly "supportive" of a stance as these 3 I'm asking about seem to be.

our western dualist thinking that can't grasp a lot of the things Paul is saying in this writings. After all, everyone lives, moves and has their being in God.

That's not what that verse actually says.  It says 'we', not "everyone".  It could mean everyone, but again, that's not what it clearly says.  So taking into account the 3 verses I'm asking about, that seem to (clearly, to me) say not everyone is indwelt, then I don't this particular verse "outweighing" the other 3.  IMO, it's at best "secondarily supportive" of that position, and doesn't "do away with" the other 3.   :2c:

Also, again, I believe He is the Substance, He acts ON anything/anyone He chooses to suit His purposes - the Author and Finisher, and in Him WE move and have our being.  But is that the same as "with Him IN everyone, we have our being"?  I think there could be a subtle but critical difference.

[Molly]

and what about the other 2 verses?

What other two verses?

We see ancient gates closed from time past.  We see the eastern entrance to the paradise of God guarded and closed.  We see the east entrance to the Temple closed to anyone but the LORD.  Who's inside?  Who's outside?  It's all talking about the same thing, isn't it?

Song of Solomon 4:12
A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

[jabcat]

These 2 -

But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."   Acts 2:38,39

[jabcat]

well, I guess I've probably about said enough.

As long as we're proclaiming Jesus, savior of the world and encouraging people to "call on the name of the Lord and you will be saved", that's the bottom line.  :)

[Molly]

These 2 -

But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.  Romans 8:9

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for [because of] the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."   Acts 2:38,39

Do you think the Spirit of Christ=the Holy Spirit?  Or is it something different?

Also what do you think about that seed of Abraham that God gave the promise to?  Do you think that is just a figure of speech?  or something real?

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

[jabcat]

Good questions.

The 2nd scripture seems to at least connect the 2, i.e., "the name of Jesus"/"receive the Holy Spirit".  I think in essence they're the same, because Christ said He [physically] must go away so the Holy Spirit could come.  (I know Tony, my "[physically]" is a translation.)   :laughing7:

As for the 1st question, right now I believe 'the seed' is spiritual language (giving a picture to understand) with a literal application (it really did and is occuring).   :2c:   If I went with more literal, I'd then think it was more like a promise, guarantee, and/or process.    But again, good questions and I'm supposing, so it might be but ain't necessarily gospel. 

[jabcat]

On the other hand  lol...

If I took it to the MOST literal interpretation I can think of, then I'd suggest it's more like "the Holy Spirit of promise" - but given the scriptures I've given about many not having the Spirit, and Jesus COMING in vs. already indwelling, then I'd think in that scenario, it would only apply to the predestined, the ecclesia in this age;  then the rest in the plan for the ages, as each is visited by the Holy Spirit and bow and confess - each in their own order. 

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Jab, I don't study the Greek as the authoritative language, but rather as a substitute for the Hebrew, a substitute which from what I've found, is inadequate to convey the Hebrew mindset which is more rich in thought and shows the connections between spiritual and natural more plainly. My :2c:

And so, I go "backwards" to the Hebrew to find the original thought that the Greek badly mangles or simply leaves out altogether. When you do this, what usually happens is, light is shed on a whole bunch of other Greek translated scriptures, that made no sense before, or the Hebrew reveals a depth not known before.

PS. I don't view the Greek as being wrong per se, more like the Hebrew originals just had some "Greek dirt" thrown on them, obscuring their light somewhat. :laughing7: :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Jab, I don't study the Greek as the authoritative language, but rather as a substitute for the Hebrew, a substitute which from what I've found, is inadequate to convey the Hebrew mindset which is more rich in thought and shows the connections between spiritual and natural more plainly. My :2c:

(for me) it's sure several NT books are originally written in Hebrew. (Matthew is 100% certain)But I think some books are originally written in Greek.
OTOH I think translations can be inspired too. Maybe gementria is a little useful tool here.

PS. I don't view the Greek as being wrong per se, more like the Hebrew originals just had some "Greek dirt" thrown on them, obscuring their light somewhat. :laughing7: :HeartThrob:

Maybe even more that people seek proof in Greek mythology.
Sheol is the Hebrew word. In the NT it's called Hades. That word/concept is as pagan as things can get. Still it's a good translation IF people don't start to use what Greek philosophers say about that word.
:2c:

[AbbasChild]

Hi Everybody,
Just wanted to say a proper hello! It really has been some time, Cardinal. I still pop in here from time to time to read what's going on but rarely get involved in any discussions anymore. I was really interessted in what was going on in this thread however. The only problem is still the different time zones. So when I lock on here, you are all probably sleeping.  :sigh:

By the way. The greek word for 'receive' - lambano - means to accept, receive or take to one self. Nothing is implied that the One being received is absent. Paul prays in Ephesians (Chapter 3 I think) that Christ would dwell in the believers hearts. That doesn't mean He was absent.

Concerning Romans 8:9, this speaks about living after the flesh vs. the Spirit, as the topic of conversion has been covered already. In this context, Jonathan Mittchell's ultra literal translation brings out the meaning far better:

Yet you folks are not constantly existing within flesh (you are not in flesh), but rather within spirit, since indeed (if so be that) God's Spirit is continuously housing Itself (making His abode; residing; dwelling; -- by idiom: living together as husband and wife) within you folks.  Yet if anyone is not continuously having (does not habitually or progressively hold) Christ's Spirit, this one is not His (is not habitually existing of Him or pertaining to Him).


His or Him, doesn't refer to Christ here - as some translations make it out to be - but to the Spirit.

[WhiteWings]

VIEW#1

Summary:
The differences are more linguistic than theological.
With recent Scripture translations, "Spirit" replaces "Ghost" in most instances. Some of this came about because words don't always hold their meanings. In the days of Shakespeare or King James, ~ghost~ meant the living essence of a person. Looking back, we see that "breath" or "soul" were often used as synonyms of "ghost." During these times, ~spirit~ normally meant the essence of a departed person or a demonic or paranormal apparition.

Read the article



VIEW #2

Summary what is translated as Holy Spirit comes from 3 different Greek words.
Read the article. It's to long to quote and to many T-words.

Use THIS tool to find the diffrent Greek words.
In the second box type: holy ghost
Click perform search and press the "Perform Search" button.
Unless the site uses very corrupt or editted manuscripts there is really a difference in the spelling.
If those differences have theological consequences is another point of discussion.
Few snippets that give the view of the website owner.
....
But does the Scriptural context and accounts show that there is a difference between the two? First of all, we know the Holy Spirit (God's essence) existed in the Old Testament. And it existed in the New Testament BEFORE Christ died, resurrected and ascended into Heaven. But notice that Jesus said He would send something else!
....
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. :13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. :14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. :15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. :16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (another comforter, another manifestition of GODs Power.
....
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (Jesus is the Comforter)
....
Jesus had to die, rise from the dead and ascend into Heaven BEFORE this part of God (that we will call "Holy Ghost" for clarification difference between what already existed before that event) could be manifested unto mankind. John 7:39 says this Holy Ghost was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified. Then in Acts we find that the Holy Ghost is poured out on mankind. The essence of God or the Holy Spirit has always manifested itself to (or led) mankind, Adam, Abramham, Moses, Noah, etc. Only after Jesus ascended back into Heaven could He send the Comforter, the Power of the Holy Ghost. At his death, resurrection and ascension, there was much Power accomplished. These events changed history. We are now able to receive POWER and authority within our own bodies! We can now have God dwelling within us. God within us is not just something to sniff at! It's POWER! It's AUTHORITY! It's not the same Holy Spirit that always existed, it's the Power of the Resurrected and Ascended Spirit of Jesus Christ! It's Jesus inside of You! Jesus inside of you never existed before! Jesus has always existed in one form or another but now He has been glorified beyond what He already was. He had work to do and He accomplished it. Now He gives that Power to us! The separation between mankind and God is gone, the veil is ripped apart, we can enter in the Holy of Holies if we accept this power!
So yes there is a difference between the Holy Spirit that always moved upon men's lives and led Moses and Noah. They did not have the resurrected and ascended Power of Jesus!
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
....

So the Holy Spirit/Ghost before and after the resurrection of Jesus is not the same.
Just read the article because I think even if you not agree with some parts, it gives a few good insights that are useful in this discussion.

[WhiteWings]

In conclusion, the Holy Spirit is the Father. The Holy Ghost is Jesus. It is not correctly translated in every opportunity as far as I know, but in many cases it is correctly translated as Holy Ghost.
May the Force be with you. God Bless,
Elder Timothy Zimmerman

UPDATE MAY 2011 i have been praying for more clarification on this subject and GOD has given it to me! Every thing written above is still correct. Here's the new edification/clarification: The Holy Spirit is GOD the GIVER. IT is HIMSELF, whether it be the Father or the Son. It is HIM outside the human vessel.
The Holy Ghost is still GOD but it is GOD IN US. It is the GIFT from GOD to us. It is GOD in us, As Jesus is GOD in us. It is the gift to the vessel/us, it is receiving the Power/GOD from on High.

[jabcat]

Per Gary A. - Spirit and Ghost are translated from the same word.

This quote is from martincisneros on 4/15/2009 - "I genuinely don't believe that the Outpouring upon all flesh of God's Spirit is very far away.  A translation or two will have St. Peter saying in Acts chapter 2 that "this is the beginning of that" which was spoken by the prophet Joel, that in the last days I'll pour out My Spirit upon all flesh.  And yet, so far we've been seeing only the stage of Scripture described by James in the book of Acts as the restoration of David's fallen Tabernacle.  The promise of the restoration of David's fallen Tabernacle does go on to say that it's so that the rest of mankind will come to Him.  But thus far, what we've been seeing is a first fruits company of ministry teams and of the fields that have been ripe for  harvest.  We're not very far away from His Outpouring upon all flesh."

[WhiteWings]

Per Gary A. - Spirit and Ghost are translated from the same word.

Depending on the manuscript...
I've already seen 2 Greek versions with different words. As you are likely aware TCB uses different English words. The reason for that may be the manuscript.

[Molly]

John 14:16

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,

17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.

[another] "Comforter"

G3875
παράκλητος
paraklētos
par-ak'-lay-tos
An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.


Para [3844] means alongside, near, next to, beside

Kletos[2822] means called.



How would we take this?  The One called by God to be beside you--Parakletos--

But the Comforter [parakletos], which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:26

MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1Jn.2:1

[Molly]

Your Back's Covered/ The High Calling
by George Cladis
The apostle Paul wrote in his biblical letter to the Philippians, if then there is any encouragement in Christ, any consolation from love, any sharing in the Spirit, any compassion and sympathy, make my joy complete: be of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.  He then encouraged them to look to Jesus who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness (Phil. 2:1-2, 6-7 NRSV).

The Greek word Paul chose for encouragement in this Scripture passage was paraclesis. The related term, paraclete, stems from ancient Greek military vocabulary. Greek soldiers went into battle paired up. Standing back to back, sword and shield in hand, they fought off enemy troops. The person standing behind was a "wing man" whom the other relied on to watch his backside! The Greeks called this trusted soldier and friend the paraclete.

Drawing on this word's rich heritage, Paul calls our attention to Christ, the paraclete for us. Paul paints a compelling picture of Jesus, who could have come as a commanding general or unyielding tyrant, but who came instead to stand beside us—encourage and protect us—watching our backside, at the same time calling forth our best effort.

Paul waxed eloquent in his description of Jesus as Paraclete to also show us how we are to be with one another. Far too often we experience people who trip us up, sabotage our work, or block our advance. Sometimes we are victims of such behavior; sometimes we perpetuate it! Paul urged these new Christians to consider Jesus—the way he lived and the model he exhibited—as an alternative: Stand beside one another instead. Be of good courage and en-courage others. Let others shine; celebrate their good fortune and efforts. Be a resource to those around you in faith and vocation and guide them to a better way of living and working.

Imagine people learning to get along, work together, foster their best efforts, and serve one another. Too "pie in the sky"? Perhaps we will never experience it in its fullness. But paraclesis starts with you. What people in your life is God calling you to encourage? Is there someone in the office who needs a supportive word from you? Do your spouse or children experience you as commanding officer or one who protects and encourages?

Consider today specific ways God is calling you to be a paraclete, then act on them before the sun goes down.

http://www.thehighcalling.org/leadership/your-back%E2%80%99s-covered

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: John 1:1 KJV - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Outer court - In the beginning (firstfruits/which we are, is the same word here) was the Word
Inner court - and the Word was WITH God (God is with us, Emmanuel)
Holy of Holies - and the Word WAS God

Note that this is a process that begins with man (who is also the Word that is Spirit made flesh = the waters below the firmament), and ends with God.

Also, in the script I mentioned elsewhere (don't remember the thread) about the difference in HS and HG, if you read more of the text than I quoted, it says they were believers already, who didn't know there was such a thing as the HG they needed to receive. They already had the HS, but needed the HG, which was not available until He was glorified, because He had to die to accomplish it. Same Spirit, different manifestations thereof......my  :2c:

[Beloved Servant]

4 There is but one body and but one Spirit, as also when you were called you had one and the same hope held out to you.
5 There is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 and one God and Father of all, who rules over all, acts through all, and dwells in all.

7 Yet to each of us individually grace was given, measured out with the munificence of Christ.

[Molly]

Also, in the script I mentioned elsewhere

Can you remember what scripture this was?

about the difference in HS and HG, if you read more of the text than I quoted, it says they were believers already, who didn't know there was such a thing as the HG they needed to receive. They already had the HS, but needed the HG, which was not available until He was glorified, because He had to die to accomplish it. Same Spirit, different manifestations thereof......

Can you find that post?

[WhiteWings]

Also, in the script I mentioned elsewhere

Can you remember what scripture this was?

about the difference in HS and HG, if you read more of the text than I quoted, it says they were believers already, who didn't know there was such a thing as the HG they needed to receive. They already had the HS, but needed the HG, which was not available until He was glorified, because He had to die to accomplish it. Same Spirit, different manifestations thereof......

Can you find that post?

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/word_studies/damned_9714.msg123282.html#msg123282

[lomarah]

Thank you Cardinal/Beloved Servant/Abbaschild! I can't wait for the veil to be completely removed!!