Does anyone know of some Universalist mystics, or visionaries

[Molly]

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
--Gen 6



6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--Jude 1



4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

--2 Peter 3



37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

--Mat 24



So--what's this all about?

[Nathan]

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.
--Gen 6



6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
--Jude 1



4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

--2 Peter 3



37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

--Mat 24



So--what's this all about?

There are several things that I should address before taking this conversation any further . . .One thing I've come to realize when dealing with spiritual principles and sharing them with others is, the one attempting to plant, must try to be aware of the season of the one receiving the seed.  You can't plant a seed in a ground that isn't receptive to it.  If the climate isn't "in season" for planting, you're going to burn up all your energy trying to break the ground to take the seed and even if you do manage to plant it, it's still not going to take root because the climate isn't appropriate for the seed to flourish.

I "can" explain what I see on your passages, but at this point, I sense it's just more out of "defense" of what I see rather than freely giving and receiving.  For the record . . .the sons of God sleeping with the daughters of men for me, is pertaining to blending spiritual truths with natural reasoning.  It produces characteristics in people that are bigger than the people carrying the message.  Reputations that dare not be questioned.  For me, a lot of our televangelists are the giants with world reknown reputations.

But I also sense, that's not the answer you want to hear.

Perhaps my problem is that I've tried to explain the literal rendering while at the same time share the spiritual principles . . .which is to say, I may have done the same as mixing spiritual truth with natural reasoning myself.  All though, before this gets bigger than I can handle, I choose to lay it down here as well.

I think it's safe to say at this point and time, my life will not end should you continue to believe in demons and devils.  And I pray that your life should not end if I continue to see them as inward patterns and principles.  In the end, whether demons or mind controls, may God have the glory either way.

[Molly]

The answer I want to hear is one that makes sense.

So now the 'sons of God' are spiritual ideas?  spiritual truth?  Not real beings?  And, the 'daughters of men' represent the mind of man?  Not real human women?

At some other point, like in the New Testament, is that phrase 'sons of God' attached to real beings?  So it suddenly changes its meaning?

I think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.  God does not operate independent of physical reality. He went to a lot of work to surround us with it.   Nor do I believe he tells us made up stories.  Sarah is a real woman who had a child at 90.  The spiritual implication of that is the child of the promise who is a miracle child.  But, if God made up the story about Sarah,  what's to keep him from making up the rest?  

The comments about the demons on here is really blaming the victim, isn't it?  It's the black heart of the person producing the demon?  And, the disciples--were they just imagining the demons leaving the people they were tending to?  Was that just their vain imagination and their own black hearts that produced visions of demons submitting to the name of Jesus?

Or did it really happen the way it says it happened?  


There is no Satan, no angels, no demons, no devils, just man and God?

Then, what's the story all about--a story that takes 6000 years to unfold?

Carnal man wrestling with God for 6000 years?  That makes man pretty powerful, doesn't it?

Seems to me this contest could have been over in a millisecond.


Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Interesting thought on that, Nate. I think everything in there has spiritual applications to us. Will have to contemplate that one.

Molly, as I'm the one that made the other comments pertaining to "liability" of the individual, all I can say is I reported what He said to my friend about it, and I KNOW for a fact she hears God, having seen proof of it literally thousands of times.

I have never really understood anything concrete about "how" that worked, but am gleaning little by little. It says He reproves us with our OWN wickedness and we eat of the fruit of our OWN lips, and I think that applies to this also. Also, out of the heart of man proceedeth.......

So I don't think it's as far fetched as it sounds on first glance, but there are "keys" yet to be uncovered to fully understand this, IMO.

Since we're going into "uncharted" waters on this, here's another thought for everyone's consideration. Ever have the thought that WE might be the fallen angels, ie. the spirit part of man? About 2 weeks after I had this thought come in, I shared with one friend, and 2 weeks later, she sent me a post of some woman on a board she frequented, where she had said, "Am I crazy, or are WE the fallen angels?"

Before y'all get the gallows ready  :winkgrin:, let me continue..... I think Lucifer was Adam and not Satan. First, because it says "is this the MAN", and second because his description has stones in it, like like the breastplate of the High Priest, and the walls of the city. Adam was the anointed cherubim that covereth to begin with, because he was set in the garden with priestly duties, made evident by his sons understanding of sacrifices.

Third, I've shared this before, but I had a dream vision decades ago, in which I saw jewels in my chest area set in gold, and the Lord spoke to me and said, "Restoration back to the anointed cherubim that covereth. I don't have all the answers obviously, but there is SOMETHING there, that's all I'm saying. There are deeper depths to go. Blessings....  

[thinktank]

"What is your name?"
"My name is Legion, for we are many."
"Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"

Legion, the man himself, believed he was demon possessed; having an amorphous personality which lacked any definite form.

However, I have two questions (anyone?):

Why did the pigs run over the cliff into the sea?
Why did Jesus agree to the man's request?

  :Book:

Think about it, all those demons were contained in the man and made him a lunatic, so what would be the result if these demons went from him to another?
They would become a lunatic right?
So the pigs were struck with madness and in a massive huff, ran over the cliff, they could not contain themselves.
The mans request? he was to insane to ask for help, the people asked the lord to help him and he did by casting out the demons. The demons did not desire to be thrown into the abyss, this must be the same abyss that the bible records where fallen angels sinned during the time of Noah. So Jesus in his mercy, recognized that these demons were respectful and so granted them another house to live in, the house of pigs, which didn't last very long, it seems the demons built their house upon sand, or as Genesis says to the serpent
Dust thou shall eat the remaining days of your life.

[claypot]

Since we're going into "uncharted" waters on this, here's another thought for everyone's consideration. Ever have the thought that WE might be falled angels, ie. the spirit part of man? About 2 weeks after I had this thought come in, I shared with one friend, and 2 weeks later, she sent me a post of some woman on a board she frequented, where she had said, "Am I crazy, or are WE the fallen angels?"

I have thought this Card and discussed it with some friends and I was basically crucified which did 2 things.................suggested to me I might be on to something and stopped further discussions with my friends!

cp

[Nathan]

Molly, I'm trying not to turn this into an arguement . . .I think between you, me and the rest of creation it's safe to say no one has a monopoly on any of the Scriptures to the point that we can become aggressive about our personal beliefs.   We all can very well be aggressively wrong.  We claim to see through the glass darkly while at the same time rise up against another for not seeing things "as clearly" as we see them.

I have NEVER stated the things your accusing me of.  I've never stated that you throw away the natural, the literal . . .I've never stated "suddenly it's changed it's meaning".  I've always stated there was a real David and Goliath and all of that.  I've never cut off the literal completely.

We're getting all bent out of shape over a doctrine that has no bearing on our relationship with the Father.  Demons or not, it doesn't make any difference so why the angst?  So I see things differently, and as I thought I had clearly shared, I'm not all that confident about all of it anyway.  I'm just not so quick to embrace something that was taught by the traditional thinking church.  

Obviously there was corruption in Noah's day . . .but who's to say that the "sons of God sleeping with daughters of men" wasn't a metaphor anyway?  There were no specifics mentioned outside of that.  No names, no storylines . . . just a general statement.  I admit, my doctrine in that area is a shaky one.

You're the second person here that's trying to say I'm claiming it's all in your imagination.  I've not said that either.  I did however try to clarify how I saw 2 Corinthians 10 is more about the battle of warfare "is" in our minds.  That particular post seems to have been ignored.  And that's my issue . . it doesn't all fit.  If it was all about demons and devils, then why doesn't everything fit that pattern?  Why then does Paul break it down about vain imaginations, taking captive our "thoughts".  If  it's supposed to be about praying against demons, why is the emphasis then about knowledge and thoughts?

I used to believe same as you.  I used to embrace literal fallen angels leaving their spiritual domain and having sex with literal women . . .yet if these were spiritual beings, I thought that in the spirit there was neither male nor female?  Why is there no mention that female angels slept with men of flesh?  I'm not so willing to let my mind come to it's own conclusions anymore.  I'm not going to say what I don't see.  

If I want to truly pursue Christ . . .then what good does it do to study about demons and the devil?  I'm to have the power to walk on serpents and not be harmed am I not?  If this is true then it shouldn't matter what breed the snake was, it can't harm me either way.

Flesh profiteth nothing.  Emphasizing the natural understanding of things only distracts me from pursuing the spiritual.  Yes, there's a natural side, but what specific benefit does this do for me spiritually to know that fallen angels had sex with natural women?  If that's all I get out of the story, what's the benefit?  Other than instilling fear that all those huge guys in the NBA are offspring of devils and demons?

If a person is demon possessed as you see it, or out of spiritual alignment as I see it, we both lay hands on the person and release a prayer of faith, do you not think that the person will be healed either way?  As I said before, I may have blurred the lines of what's spiritual and what's natural before which caused me to say things that created a disruption in you.  I apologize for that.  But I've never said it's all a metaphor.  I've always held that it's all in dimensions.  And the emphasis I beleive we're to pursue is not the natural or physical, but the spiritual.

If I see there is in me, sons of God, the spiritual realm, sleeping with the daughters of men . . .spiritual becoming intimate with my carnality . . .if I can see "that" as a pattern "in me", then that's worth seeing and knowing because that can affect my daily walk should I let it continue.

Would it make you feel any better if I said this instead?
In the first dimension, there are demons, there are fallen angels and there is a devil.  But in the third dimension, it's more about mindsets, carnal thinking and a traducing mind in general?

And wrap that up by saying we're to walk in the spirit and and not dwell on what's written in the flesh???  That's essentially what I am trying to say in all of this.

Card, I just read your latest post . . .and I find that your perspective on "us" possibly being the fallen angels is most profound and very deep.

[thinktank]

Before y'all get the gallows ready  winkgrin, let me continue..... I think Lucifer was Adam and not Satan. First, because it says "is this the MAN", and second because his description has stones in it, like like the breastplate of the High Priest, and the walls of the city. Adam was the anointed cherubim that covereth to begin with, because he was set in the garden with priestly duties, made evident by his sons understanding of sacrifices.


I have not heard this version before the idea Lucifier is a man. But let me shed some light.
Ok the devil gets thrown in to the lake of fire in the end, but to me God is love and does not torture people for nothing. I belive Satans punishment for his wickedness will be 1000 years in prison.
But I belive that scripture is saying that Satan is a man because God will convert Satan from a spirit being into a man, so that he can destroy him in a lake of fire. There is another scripture that compliments this idea. If I find it I will edit this post and put it in.

[WhiteWings]

I think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

[LS]

I think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

I've been reading this thread and I would just like to caution everyone to please be very prayerful.  We are to be as children - I believe that anyone can read the Bible and understand it.  I think sometimes we try to be too spiritual, too clever, too "wise in our own estimation" and can get carried away. 

Yes there are deeper meanings that the Holy Spirit will speak to our heart. But there is also the obvious and simple meaning. 

Satan and demons and angels are presented in scripture as beings for a reason.  To say "I believe in UR so they no longer have a place in my belief, so what else could it mean?" is very backward, to me.  We shouldn't start with what we believe and then try to figure out how to fit scripture into that ... we start with scripture and it should determine our beliefs.

I don't mean this toward any one person; only as an overall caution meant in a loving way to us all as we reason together   :grouppray:

[WhiteWings]

Ever have the thought that WE might be falled angels

^KJVJud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So that means we exited before. We reincatated when we were born on this planet after leaving our first estate.

[WhiteWings]

I have not heard this version before the idea Lucifier is a man. But let me shed some light.
Ok the devil gets thrown in to the lake of fire in the end,

^KJVHeb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
6 billion flames = a lake  :eek:

[thinktank]

I think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

I've been reading this thread and I would just like to caution everyone to please be very prayerful.  We are to be as children - I believe that anyone can read the Bible and understand it.  I think sometimes we try to be too spiritual, too clever, too "wise in our own estimation" and can get carried away. 

Yes there are deeper meanings that the Holy Spirit will speak to our heart. But there is also the obvious and simple meaning. 

Satan and demons and angels are presented in scripture as beings for a reason.  To say "I believe in UR so they no longer have a place in my belief, so what else could it mean?" is very backward, to me.  We shouldn't start with what we believe and then try to figure out how to fit scripture into that ... we start with scripture and it should determine our beliefs.

I don't mean this toward any one person; only as an overall caution meant in a loving way to us all as we reason together   :grouppray:

Good post. I think a lot of the problem comes from fear, the ideal of UR is everyones saved but the devil poses a problem to that belief. But everyone is welcome to their own interpretation but the danger is they are weakening their power as a Christian and are less able to combat Satans devices. To me the love for all to be saved including Satan, is more about empathy than love, for only God can love all people and he has made it known that the final destination of Satan is the lake of fire, which means we do not have to fear him, as he was defeated on the cross. The final words of Jesus confirms our power over the enemy. :2c:

[jabcat]

I think there is a danger to cutting off the literal completely.  The spiritual cannot just free float with nothing supporting it and maintain its relevance.  He says first the natural for a reason.

:thumbsup:
(I think the spiritual is to often (ab)used to explain away literal things that aren't understood)

I've been reading this thread and I would just like to caution everyone to please be very prayerful....

Yes there are deeper meanings that the Holy Spirit will speak to our heart. But there is also the obvious and simple meaning.  

Satan and demons and angels are presented in scripture as beings for a reason.  To say "I believe in UR so they no longer have a place in my belief, so what else could it mean?" is very backward, to me.  We shouldn't start with what we believe and then try to figure out how to fit scripture into that ... we start with scripture and it should determine our beliefs.

I don't mean this toward any one person; only as an overall caution meant in a loving way to us all as we reason together   :grouppray:

Amen, Amen.  We need to be careful.  Our mind is a powerful thing, while at the same time having many weaknesses.  Thus, lean not to our own understanding, and be careful of our vain imaginations.   The Spirit revelation, within the written Word.  They work together.  I've read some really great revelations about the scriptures on TM.  But I've also seen some "spiritual insights" that clearly were in opposition to the scriptures.  Not even iffy.  Paul said one thing, the posters said the exact opposite.  Who's to be believed?  (rhetorical question).

Good posts.   :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

I used to believe same as you.  I used to embrace literal fallen angels leaving their spiritual domain and having sex with literal women . . .yet if these were spiritual beings, I thought that in the spirit there was neither male nor female?  Why is there no mention that female angels slept with men of flesh?  I'm not so willing to let my mind come to it's own conclusions anymore.  I'm not going to say what I don't see.  


You may not have noticed this but every angel in scripture is described as a male, please name me one female angel, I have not found any yet?
Gabriel who delivered the message to Mary?, Male.
Angel who was in Jesus Tomb? Male.
Michael the archangel who fights the devil during Daniels time? Male
The Angels who accompanied lot ? Male
Lucifier? is described as a man in ezekiel so also male
Sure there is nether male nor female, but in the spirit dimension, they would probably prefer to manifest masculine qualities, similar to the lord.

If I want to truly pursue Christ . . .then what good does it do to study about demons and the devil?  I'm to have the power to walk on serpents and not be harmed am I not?  If this is true then it shouldn't matter what breed the snake was, it can't harm me either way.

I think it helps. I have learned a great deal from demons and the devil recently and it is a great help. In fact I am amazed by the amount of scriptures that talk about the devil and demons, I am amazed. I thought there were maybe about 6 scriptures in the whole bible. It helps in that one has a better understanding of the world we live in and the evils people commit and how many people are in bondage to demons and, even when sharing the love of God they still struggle with bondages. To me it is a great skill or even a gift from God to discern between someone who needs emotional/spiritual healing and someone who is vexed and in bondage to a demonic spirit.

Flesh profiteth nothing.  Emphasizing the natural understanding of things only distracts me from pursuing the spiritual.  Yes, there's a natural side, but what specific benefit does this do for me spiritually to know that fallen angels had sex with natural women?  If that's all I get out of the story, what's the benefit?  Other than instilling fear that all those huge guys in the NBA are offspring of devils and demons?

I am not keen on this story I find it repulsive, this is not the best example of focusing on the natural. Though where one should focus on the natural?. A great story of the natural in place is when Jesus heals people the deaf the blind the maimed. It is through the weakness of the flesh, that these people experienced a real love from God and it is through natural understanding one can appreciate this.
Another example is how Jesus became a carpenter. Such a job is not what one would call spiritual, but rather it is a common job that people associate, jack the lad types. This to me shows that God is not so far from us, that the common man cannot reach him, but rather he is willing to come down to our naturalness and touch us in a special way, to me this speaks volumes of the love of God, more than say any spiritual experience, that he is willing to get down and dirty and do the grunts work.
Of course any spiritual experience is nice and the bible says to seek spiritual gifts etc and to continually pray.

As for the nba players, I think that the giants were all slain. The flood killed most and Israel killed the rest during their quest to enter the promise land. The giants were a bit taller than NBA players, their walls in the city reached into heaven and we were as grasshoppers in their sight.

If a person is demon possessed as you see it, or out of spiritual alignment as I see it, we both lay hands on the person and release a prayer of faith, do you not think that the person will be healed either way?  As I said before, I may have blurred the lines of what's spiritual and what's natural before which caused me to say things that created a disruption in you.  I apologize for that.  But I've never said it's all a metaphor.  I've always held that it's all in dimensions.  And the emphasis I beleive we're to pursue is not the natural or physical, but the spiritual.

If your looking to heal the sick sometimes it might be a demon causing the sickness, this I learn from the scriptures. But the trouble is, casting out demons is not allways spiritually benificial for the person, for sometimes the person is involved in sin which attracts the demons and it is better not to cast them out until the person repents, for if the demon is cast out, they might reenter through the persons, love or bondage to sin.

[Nathan]

Which is more "out there"?  Seeing satan is between my ears, or believing satan is going to be redeemed through the lake of fire?

[thinktank]

Which is more "out there"?  Seeing satan is between my ears, or believing satan is going to be redeemed through the lake of fire?

Are you asking me? I would say the second choice. The whole bible mentions the redemption of the world through Christ but there is not a word concerning redemption for Satan, other than that he's is thrown into a lake of fire and if one makes the conclusion that he is being purifed by fire then that is a very large leap to make.

The idea of the devil between your ears is much more plausible for Jesus regularly mentioned that the carnal Pharisses were doing the lusts of their father the devil, many times, he even called Peter Satan when he became carnally minded.

Since the devil used to be the bright morning star, perhaps he is similar to a giant broadcating station that sends evil thoughts to humanity, similar in which the sun sends rays of sunshine. The reason I say this is because the bible calls workers of unrighteousness sons of the devil.
But I also argue with myself that rebellious thoughts come through the tree of good and evil. But then I look at Genesis and Adam and Eve had evil thoughts of wanting to be God before eating the tree, and the source of these lies came from Serpent the devil.

[WhiteWings]

Another example is how Jesus became a carpenter. Such a job is not what one would call spiritual, but rather it is a common job that people associate, jack the lad types.

:2c: Jesus' family had quite some status. (not speaking about spiritual things) Jesus was no carpenter. He was a "tekton". That's someone that makes wooden contructions. Bridges for example.
Jesus did also build spiritual bridges :winkgrin:

If your looking to heal the sick sometimes it might be a demon causing the sickness, this I learn from the scriptures. But the trouble is, casting out demons is not allways spiritually benificial for the person, for sometimes the person is involved in sin which attracts the demons and it is better not to cast them out until the person repents, for if the demon is cast out, they might reenter through the persons, love or bondage to sin.

You have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

Since the devil used to be the bright morning star,

The king of Babylon is the morning star... :2c:

[Cardinal]

Since we're going into "uncharted" waters on this, here's another thought for everyone's consideration. Ever have the thought that WE might be falled angels, ie. the spirit part of man? About 2 weeks after I had this thought come in, I shared with one friend, and 2 weeks later, she sent me a post of some woman on a board she frequented, where she had said, "Am I crazy, or are WE the fallen angels?"

I have thought this Card and discussed it with some friends and I was basically crucified which did 2 things.................suggested to me I might be on to something and stopped further discussions with my friends!

cp

:cloud9: Well, that's why I only told ONE friend at the time. I felt it was dropped into my spirit by the HS, but it was SO out there, it shook me. Blessings....

[Nathan]

If we're the fallen angels . . .then are you saying 1\3 of them never fell as we've been taught?

[thinktank]

Another example is how Jesus became a carpenter. Such a job is not what one would call spiritual, but rather it is a common job that people associate, jack the lad types.

:2c: Jesus' family had quite some status. (not speaking about spiritual things) Jesus was no carpenter. He was a "tekton". That's someone that makes wooden contructions. Bridges for example.
Jesus did also build spiritual bridges :winkgrin:

An advanced carpenter, it still a hands based work though right?
Some snoby quotes by the upper classes
Where did he learn? the Pharisses
Isn't this the son of Mary and Joseph, who we know
Nothing good comes out of Gailee
Also I'm not sure about the status of the familly, I'm not an expert here but I think that the Pharisses expected Jesus to come from a line of kingship, Davids line but Jesus came through the line of Nathaniel? Nathan? considered the lowly line. I will abase him that is excalted and excalt those that are abase.

If your looking to heal the sick sometimes it might be a demon causing the sickness, this I learn from the scriptures. But the trouble is, casting out demons is not allways spiritually benificial for the person, for sometimes the person is involved in sin which attracts the demons and it is better not to cast them out until the person repents, for if the demon is cast out, they might reenter through the persons, love or bondage to sin.

You have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

Thank you I try my best. :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

You have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

Thank you I try my best. :bigGrin:

Put that grin away TT  :laughing7:
Do you have any idea what "knack" means/is?  :pointlaugh:

[thinktank]

You have a real knack for words TT :winkgrin:

Thank you I try my best. :bigGrin:

Put that grin away TT  :laughing7:
Do you have any idea what "knack" means/is?  :pointlaugh:

knack [næk]
n
1. a skilful, ingenious, or resourceful way of doing something
2. a particular talent or aptitude, esp an intuitive one


I thought perhaps you were joking, but thank you I appreciate your kind comment, this time my smile is even more genuine.  :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

Having a knack means you are possesed  :laughing7:

Knack is the name of an ancient demon.
If you allowed him to posses you he gave you a special ability in return.
If you have a knack for singing it means demon Knack gave you a good voice as a gift.

So people all pray to cast out TT's Knack  :pointlaugh: