This might annoy some of you, but this might be the truth of the matter and bring greater understanding.
The lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.
This verse is used to prove that God prepared Adam and Eve to fail. That he deliberatly wanted them to fail in the garden.
But...the lnaguage here used is "world". not Earth.
This makes a difference.
Jesus Christ came to save the world. The world heareth them, but he that heareth God is not of the world.
So when did the world begin?
Genesis 1.1?
I believe it started sometime after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out from Eden, into the world.
Which means that the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was slain and prepared as a sacrifice AFTER Adam and Eve sinned.
I believe the word is 'kosmos', meaning system. Though not extremely annoyed, LOL! I am one that believes it was from the beginning of "things planned", the "system".
I've thought for a long time that Adam is the lamb slain from/at the casting down of the kosmos.
PS we are now still living in the system that resulted from the casting down of Adam, except for us blessed ones that have been translated into the kingdom of [God's] dear Son.
I've seen you say that Molly, but I'm not sure I understand...Adam, not Jesus, or somehow one and the same?
Quote from: jabcat on June 01, 2011, 04:15:44 AM
I've seen you say that Molly, but I'm not sure I understand...Adam, not Jesus, or somehow one and the same?
Did you see my ps?
If I put together the things we know about Adam, the image of the one to come, having the indwelling Spirit [was not deceived], the son of God--
with--
1)Jesus is the kinsman Redeemer
2)He is not ashamed to call them brothers
3)The mystery hidden from ages and generations--
Christ in you, the hope of glorywell, I could say more, but probably better to stop there... :winkgrin:
I may be wrong, but I get from that is you believe Adam (as in 'Adam and Eve in the garden') was [the not-yet-revealed] Yeshua, the Son of God? Also, I guess a case could be made that Adam wasn't deceived (Eve was), yet he still was in disobedience?....
TT, we'll try to bring this full circle back to your OP :smile:
Quote from: jabcat on June 01, 2011, 04:37:21 AM
I may be wrong, but I get from that is you believe Adam (as in 'Adam and Eve in the garden') was [the not-yet-revealed] Yeshua, the Son of God? Also, I guess a case could be made that Adam wasn't deceived (Eve was), yet he still was in disobedience?....
TT, we'll try to bring this full circle back to your OP :smile:
well, let me ask you this--what does Christ in you, the hope of glory mean? Why has that been hidden from ages and generations? Is Christ something hidden in the elect from before the foundation of the world?
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Well, let me tell you something...:laugh2:
What I (past and) currently believe those things mean is;
"Christ in me", is Jesus in me since He's given me faith to believe on Him for salvation;
and, "hidden from ages and generations", was God's plan to not reveal His Son as the Savior until the time of the age of grace (His crucifixion and resurrection) - that the Jewish nation in general, or the "pagan" nations were veiled until His revealing. Further, that some still are not allowed to see, and won't until it's their "time".
"chosen us in Him" I take to mean that He predestined the ecclesia for His purposes, at least partly being to help bring the nations in during the next age.
Sounds like you're possibly seeing/suspecting some other "connections" than that...
I just "simply" believe "Lamb slain...foundation" means that it was God's thought and intent, His plan from the beginning, that Jesus would be our Savior. Not a Plan B when Plan A went down the drain.
You think there's more to it than that? Lay it on us, you're among friends. :bigGrin:
The foundation of the world=the founding of the kosmos=the conception of the kosmos. That word 'foundation' = katabole which comes from kataballo which literally means to throw down or cast down.
So we have these two things happening at the same time--the lambkin is slain and the kosmos is cast down--the lambkin slain from the foundation of the world. Doesn't that sound like what happens in Gen 3 with Adam? This is assuming you would agree that Adam was slain by the Nachash who deceived Eve.
QuoteChrist in me", is Jesus in me since He's given me faith to believe on Him for salvation;
We have a whole list of OT saints who had faith and who had righteousness. But, you see, Paul calls this a secret ['musterion'] hidden from ages and generations. This was kept secret until Paul was commissioned to release the secret to the NT saints.
Quoteand, "hidden from ages and generations", was God's plan to not reveal His Son as the Savior until the time of the age of grace (His crucifixion and resurrection) -
Is that what Paul says? I don't see him mentioning the crucifixion as the mystery. He says the mystery is--
Christ in you, the hope of glory.The OT saints had righteousness and faith before the crucifixion.
well--like the man says, it's a mystery. :dontknow: :winkgrin:
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
--Mat 23
Sitting at the feet of Jesus reveals:
"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool" (Isa. 66:1).
"And I will make the place of My feet glorious" (Isa. 60:13).
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zech. 14:4).
Christ is the supreme Ruler of the universe.
Christ always has ruled.
He always will.
The Father has given "ALL things" into His hand (Jn. 3:35).
Mol,
all else aside, quickly - no, right there in that passage he doesn't say the mystery is the crucifixion, and that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying "salvation through Jesus" is the mystery, but only revealed "at His appointed time".
though not fully understood by me, I believe the OT saints were saved by faith in God - the Christ, Messiah had not as yet come/been revealed - though they looked for Him, they didn't as yet know Who He was. He is still hidden from most.
Looking back at your post, it seems like we're really seeing much of this the same, maybe just some pieces of it a bit differently - and that's what I'm trying to get at - the whole Adam thing. I believe it's about Jesus, and I THINK you do too, but that Jesus was somehow Adam? Also, I'm realizing it's not real popular outside mainstream Christianity, but I'm not one that believes Jesus resides in anyone until they're spiritually reborn from above, i.e., given the faith to believe, born again. Peace :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: jabcat on June 01, 2011, 06:29:29 AM
Also, I'm realizing it's not real popular outside mainstream Christianity, but I'm not one that believes Jesus resides in anyone until they're spiritually reborn from above, i.e., given the faith to believe, born again. Peace :Sparkletooth:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 01, 2011, 06:28:03 AM
Sitting at the feet of Jesus reveals:
"Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool" (Isa. 66:1).
"And I will make the place of My feet glorious" (Isa. 60:13).
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives" (Zech. 14:4).
Christ is the supreme Ruler of the universe.
Christ always has ruled.
He always will.
The Father has given "ALL things" into His hand (Jn. 3:35).
You bring up a subject I was just reading about tonight David, and I have a related article I'd like to discuss in another thread, but I'm afraid we'd have problems "going there" without getting into the Trinity debate. :sigh:
I'll think on it.
Is not the seed of faith in every man?
Has not God hidden Himself in the place where no man would look?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1lTJUFHiOE
That may be, but it's also true that we must be born again. I agree, there's some mystery about it, in that all are given a measure of faith. However, there are many scriptures about being saved ("what must I do?"), etc., and also, Jesus called some of them of their Father the devil.
I recall a post of yours from about a year ago that said "it's obvious not all are of the brethren"... I agree, it's just not for me to say who is and who isn't. (although He did say we'd know them by their fruit). Gee, takes lots of discernment, wisdom, and being careful. Still learning here.
can't see Youtube from work, would need to watch from home later.
are these the lyrics?
Our Eyes are bleeding
Courtesy of everything
That you could ever want to hide
Our veins are dry
Sometimes the truth cuts deeper
Than the sharpest knife
Looking is an awkward feeling
When you're beaten down
Anything to stop the burning
We've been running all around
We just survive
Too busy occupied with dying to
Stop and consider life
So many pretty pretty pictures
On the walls an on our fingertips
Let's sew the borders round it
Losing is an awkward feeling
When your bleeded down
Ain't no way to stop the burning
We've been running all around ourselves
And it's the choices that we choose
In our everyday abuse
Just a short solution to a long term problem
I stabbed myself just for the scar
To see if I could feel something
And it's the choices that we choose
Cause we're all prophetic fools
Just a short solution to a long term problem
I need
Just one more thing
To be completely blinded
Shoot it up, shoot it in,
Buried it under all this callous skin
Losing is an awkward feeling
When your bleeded down
Ain't no way to stop the burning
We've been running all around ourselves
And it's the choices that we choose
In our everyday abuse
Just a short solution
To a long term problem everyone
Innocence is way overrated now
Choking this sober feeling down
I guess you've come over me
So define lonely
no, that's not it.
OK, good, because I didn't get it :laughhand:
I didn't want to sound like a smart aleck, but I wasn't quite seeing the "prophetic part"
somebody posted that as the lyrics to that particular song...oops
ok, i found it through a different site and have listened to pieces of it...nice. I'll go back to it now.
the depth of this defies even trying
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 01, 2011, 06:36:13 AM
Is not the seed of faith in every man?
Has not God hidden Himself in the place where no man would look?
Yes, every man is given a measure of faith, but the anointed one [Christ] is given the Spirit without measure
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure. If we look at the two sons of Adam, Jesus calls Abel righteous. Where does Abel's righteousness come from? Only Christ is righteous.
But, then we see the n'er do well Cain who murders his own brother out of jealousy and bad conscience. God sends Cain out of his presence but he puts a mark on him, which is the Tav, which ww could probably tell us is the sign of the cross. :winkgrin:
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
This might annoy some of you,
:talkangry:
QuoteThe lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.
This verse is used to prove that God prepared Adam and Eve to fail. That he deliberatly wanted them to fail in the garden.
Some call it "wanting" some call it "fore knowledge" other call it "plan". I say those things are exactly the same thing.
QuoteBut...the lnaguage here used is "world". not Earth.
This makes a difference.
Jesus Christ came to save the world. The world heareth them, but he that heareth God is not of the world.
So when did the world begin?
Genesis 1.1?
I believe it started sometime after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out from Eden, into the world.
Which means that the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was slain and prepared as a sacrifice AFTER Adam and Eve sinned.
Can you rephrase that? I have no clue how you reach that conclusion...
Note that "world" is often translated wrong so it's not a good starting point for anything but a general understanding.
:2c:
Quote from: jabcat on June 01, 2011, 03:50:39 AM
I believe the word is 'kosmos', meaning system. Though not extremely annoyed, LOL! I am one that believes it was from the beginning of "things planned", the "system".
a] What exactly does "from" mean?
b] What does "foundation"mean?
Let's compare it with a house.
When was the foundation of your house?
c] When the construction workers started digging in your garden -> Actual things happening in the creation account.
d] The time you had endless chats with your wife and architect before the actual building started.
I think "slain from the foundation of the world" is option d]
Quote from: Molly on June 01, 2011, 06:15:59 AM
The foundation of the world=the founding of the kosmos=the conception of the kosmos. That word 'foundation' = katabole which comes from kataballo which literally means to throw down or cast down.
Or in Cardinal tongue "slowed down" :winkgrin:
Quote from: jabcat on June 01, 2011, 04:37:21 AM
I may be wrong, but I get from that is you believe Adam (as in 'Adam and Eve in the garden') was [the not-yet-revealed] Yeshua, the Son of God? Also, I guess a case could be made that Adam wasn't deceived (Eve was), yet he still was in disobedience?....
TT, we'll try to bring this full circle back to your OP :smile:
Usually spiraling down is a better choice of words for threads that go off-topic at the first reply :laughing7:
Hi;
Rom 9;11 " They, in fact, not being born yet, nor having practiced anything good or bad, in order that the purpose of God might stand by way of election, NOT by works, but by Him that we are calling."
This seems to be the stuff about before the foundation of the world so as to teach us the difference between good and evil, and yet bring us to be of equal value before Him through the common cleansing blood of the lamb.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 01, 2011, 09:22:17 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 01, 2011, 06:15:59 AM
The foundation of the world=the founding of the kosmos=the conception of the kosmos. That word 'foundation' = katabole which comes from kataballo which literally means to throw down or cast down.
Or in Cardinal tongue "slowed down" :winkgrin:
:cloud9: :laughing7: You got it :thumbsup: Another thought to throw out there......wife, helpmeet, run into the word for foundation. The creation is His "wife".....
from the [casting down] foundation of the [kosmos] world
"world"
G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.
I think this fits in with Jab's definition of kosmos as a 'system' [orderly arrangement] and also with what Cardinal said of all creation as his wife [adornment, decoration].
Adam was created to tend and keep the garden of God. After the casting down, the garden turned to thorns and thistles, death and sin entered in, Adam was still the tender and keeper but now by the sweat of his brow, [and working under Satan's rule of the kosmos now, imo]. But the LORD left the garden with Adam, stayed with him outside the garden [=outside the camp], and was always there to make a way.
My :2c:
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
What is this scripture really saying?
Is it talking about the foundation of the old world or is it talking about the foundation of the new world?
If it is speaking of Christ being slain from the foundation of the old world then why did He have to be slain AGAIN 2000 years ago?
If He was slain from the foundation of the old world why do the scripture say:
Hebrews 9:25-26
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
But NOW ONCE in the end of the WORLD/AGE He appeared to put away sin by the SACRIFICE of HIMSELF.
If Christ was sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world then sin was already put away and He would not have had to come in the END of the world/age.
Rev.13:8 is not talking about Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the old world, it is talking about Christ being slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD.
This is brought out more fully when we read 1 Peter 1:20
1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
If He was already sacrificed/slain then it would not say He was foreordained to be sacrificed/slain in the last times for us.
Jesus Christ is our foundation, and not only our foundation, but also the capstone on which the foundation is laid.
Isaiah 28:16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Rev.13:8 is speaking of Christ being sacrificed/slain from the foundation of the NEW WORLD and that foundation was laid 2000 years ago when He was sacrificed/slain and access to the kingdom of heaven was given unto men through Him.
The scriptures state while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
So if Christ died for us from the foundation of the old world then He died for us BEFORE we were sinners and NOT while we were sinners.
God bless
Quote1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
Hi Scott,
Maybe it simply means
the plan was made before the foundation of the old world.
I wonder if it would have been of any use if Jesus was slain before all the OT laws were declared.
The reason Jesus was/is saviour that His sacrifice was according to many laws that cover/do away with sin.
Without those laws in place it would be useless to die that way....?
Matthew 4:8
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
But the Earth belongs to the lord. So what is this world that the devil offers?
Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
The world is a dark place, so dark that we as a candle light it up.
John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Matthew 13:22
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
The thorns choke the word. Notice in Genesis that God cursed the Earth so it produced thistles and thorns.
So if the lamb is slain from the foundation of the world, it means God planned the sacrifice for Adam after he sinned and needed a sacrifice.
Since before Adam sinned there was no need for a sacrifice, as there was no transgression.
Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:8
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression
The Earth does not end
Deuteronomy 10:14
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
But the world does
Matthew 24:3
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world
Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Here we see to classes of people. One class being the children of the world and the other class being the children of light.
John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
John 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
So how can the lamb be slain from the foundation of the Earth if
1. There is no transgression, therefore no need of a sacrifice
But after Eve was in the transgression, now we see that a sacrifice is necessary.
Hebrews 5:1
For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
This verse sums by theory up. That he suffered since the foundation of the world, he puts away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
So where is the sin in Genesis 1.1 that needs a sacrifice? Since a lot think that is where the foundation of the world began, rather than at the moment Adam and Eve transgressed.
John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 01, 2011, 04:49:36 PM
Quote1 Peter 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
This scripture point out that Christ was NOT slain from the foundation of the old world, but that He was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be slain/sacrificed in the last time for us.
Hi Scott,
Maybe it simply means the plan was made before the foundation of the old world.
I wonder if it would have been of any use if Jesus was slain before all the OT laws were declared.
The reason Jesus was/is saviour that His sacrifice was according to many laws that cover/do away with sin.
Without those laws in place it would be useless to die that way....?
Hi WW, good to hear from you again.
I don't believe God PRE-planned to sacrifice His Son.
How many times have we read where God sent His servant to people in order to get them to repent? Was God just wasting His time by doing this? Did these servants suffer and die for nothing? They would have if God PRE-planned the sacrifice of His Son.
The sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not needed UNTIL man refused to obey His commandments. If man had of obeyed the voice of God in the garden God would not have had to sacrifice His Son. However because man refused to obey His voice God did that which He NEVER wanted to do.
Here is a small article on this topic I wrote awhile back
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son
, but because man would NOT obey His voice God had to do that which He NEVER intended in the first place.
KJV
Jer 7:22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
First thing I would point out is God gave the Law written in stone BEFORE He gave the commands concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
In the day God brought the people out of Egypt He gave commands for us to OBEY HIS VOICE but the people would not listen to OBEY HIS VOICE so God commanded burnt offerings and sacrifices for the people.
If the people had OBEYED HIS VOICE then there would have been no need of burnt offerings and sacrifices. But because of the peoples disobedience God instituted/made provision/weaved a way for man to come before Him in repentance by burnt offerings and sacrifices.
We see this very principal brought out in
1 Samuel 15:22
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
God has far more delight in our obedience then He has in us having to offer up burnt offerings and sacrifices for our sins. If we OBEY Him we have no need of sacrifices.
Now we know that the sacrifices given in the OT are a shadow of Christ sacrifice for us. Thus, God says that when He brought the people out of Egypt (God taking man from the dust of the earth OUTSIDE the garden[Egypt] and putting man into the garden) He did NOT command concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
Why?
Because He commanded them to Obey my voice.
The sacrifice and offerings only came into play AFTER the disobedience of man. Thus, He says to obey is better than sacrifice.
God did NOT want to sacrifice His son, He wanted obedience, but because man disobeyed His voice, He gave them a means of coming before Him through sacrifice.
Hosea 6:6
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
God did NOT desire sacrifice; therefore God did not desire the sacrifice of His son.
Psalm 40:6
6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Again it say sacrifice and offering God did NOT desire, but it even go farther and says that they were NOT required.
If God planned all along for Jesus to be sacrificed for us why do scriptures say that offerings were NOT required?
Because if man had of obeyed His voice sacrifices and offering would NOT have been required.
Psalm 51:16
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Again we see the same thing, God did NOT desire sacrifice.
Hebrews 10:5-6
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Jesus said it Himself, sacrifice and offering God did NOT want, and He(God) found NO pleasure in them.
Now we all know that God had pleasure in the outcome of Christ sacrifice, so what is Jesus saying here? Is He not saying that God had NO pleasure in the need of sacrificing His son.
Why did He(God) have NO pleasure in sacrificing His son?
Because He wanted obedience and NOT sacrifice.
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 05:29:43 PM
I don't believe God PRE-planned to sacrifice His Son.
So He switched to plan B when it vecame clear His creation was flawed?
QuoteHow many times have we read where God sent His servant to people in order to get them to repent? Was God just wasting His time by doing this? Did these servants suffer and die for nothing? They would have if God PRE-planned the sacrifice of His Son.
Why did God* sent the servants if He knew it would have no effect at all?
*=I starting to doubt more and more that His Son is correct. I think Father rarely mentioned in OT. Basicly that means Jesus sacrificed Himself.
QuoteThe sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not needed UNTIL man refused to obey His commandments. If man had of obeyed the voice of God in the garden God would not have had to sacrifice His Son. However because man refused to obey His voice God did that which He NEVER wanted to do.
I think that's something we won't reach an agreement on.
Excellent article pneuma. It really does make sense and makes me appreciate Jesus even more, knowing he sacrificed himself for our sins and came to save us.
Quote from: WExellhiteWings on June 01, 2011, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 05:29:43 PM
I don't believe God PRE-planned to sacrifice His Son.
So He switched to plan B when it vecame clear His creation was flawed?
-----------------
What's wrong with plan B?
You think God only has one plan?
I think God has multiple plans. He might plan to make you wings a president, but if you refuse he would have another plan so that you are a cleaner, learned how to clean properly, then God might change plan again and promote you to president.
QuoteHow many times have we read where God sent His servant to people in order to get them to repent? Was God just wasting His time by doing this? Did these servants suffer and die for nothing? They would have if God PRE-planned the sacrifice of His Son.
Why did God* sent the servants if He knew it would have no effect at all?
*=I starting to doubt more and more that His Son is correct. I think Father rarely mentioned in OT. Basicly that means Jesus sacrificed Himself.
QuoteThe sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not needed UNTIL man refused to obey His commandments. If man had of obeyed the voice of God in the garden God would not have had to sacrifice His Son. However because man refused to obey His voice God did that which He NEVER wanted to do.
I think that's something we won't reach an agreement on.
New things take time to learn.
Christ/ meaning annointed ..
Slain from the foundation of the world .................
I have an idea of it , but would make no sense to some ... I may explain it if anyone wants to hear it and critique it of course :laughing7:
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 06:51:13 PM
Excellent article pneuma. It really does make sense and makes me appreciate Jesus even more, knowing he sacrificed himself for our sins and came to save us.
Quote from: WExellhiteWings on June 01, 2011, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 05:29:43 PM
I don't believe God PRE-planned to sacrifice His Son.
So He switched to plan B when it vecame clear His creation was flawed?
-----------------
What's wrong with plan B?
You think God only has one plan?
I think God has multiple plans. He might plan to make you wings a president, but if you refuse he would have another plan so that you are a cleaner, learned how to clean properly, then God might change plan again and promote you to president.
QuoteHow many times have we read where God sent His servant to people in order to get them to repent? Was God just wasting His time by doing this? Did these servants suffer and die for nothing? They would have if God PRE-planned the sacrifice of His Son.
Why did God* sent the servants if He knew it would have no effect at all?
*=I starting to doubt more and more that His Son is correct. I think Father rarely mentioned in OT. Basicly that means Jesus sacrificed Himself.
QuoteThe sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not needed UNTIL man refused to obey His commandments. If man had of obeyed the voice of God in the garden God would not have had to sacrifice His Son. However because man refused to obey His voice God did that which He NEVER wanted to do.
I think that's something we won't reach an agreement on.
New things take time to learn.
I agree Tony. I believe in a God Who is all powerful, all knowing, and in control. He is not surprised, and doesn't have to ad lib. He knows the end from the beginning, and is in charge of it all.
As far as new things taking time to learn. There are lots of doctrines, and hopefully we're learning things according to a right division of the scriptures.
QuoteSo He switched to plan B when it vecame clear His creation was flawed?
Not a plan B WW, God has always-wanted obedience, obedience is God's plan, always has been and always will be. Jesus says if you love me, you will keep my commandments.
When God placed Adam in the garden, he gave him the commandment not to eat of the TOGE.
Now to say God planned for Adam to eat from the tree is the same as saying Gods command not to eat from the tree is redundant.
God set before Adam the choice of life or death. Life was through obedience to the command not to eat, death through disobedience to that command. This is the same choice that is before us every day.
What you call a plan B is nothing but God responding to the movement of the clay.
Here is another short article I wrote concerning the potter and the clay.
The Potter and His Clay
Jeremiah 18:1-17
The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter:
A funny thing about clay is that it has a memory of its own and always wants to return to its clay form. So when one is fashioning a vase the clay tries to fall back into its natural form. Thus being marred in the hands of the potter. It is NOT the potter who mars the clay in his hands, it is the clay trying to return to clay that mars itself. The potter wants to make a vase, the clay wants to return to its natural form.
So if we look at man who is formed from the dust of the earth and placed into the garden to be fashioned into Gods image and likeness, we can see the clay in the potters hands.
Now through mans own disobedience man marred himself in the potters hands and returned to the dust/clay from whence he was taken. Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return.
Now lets look at those same scriptures out of the Septuagint.
18:1 The word that came from the Lord to 2 Jeremias, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there thou shalt hear my words. 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and behold, he was making a vessel on the stones. 4 And the vessel which he was making with his hands fell:
And we know that Adam fell by disobedience. Thus the potter did NOT mar the vessel
the vessel fell and marred itself.
so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Thus the potter takes up the same clay and makes a NEW vessel out of it.
We are a NEW creation in Christ Jesus.
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Does nor matter how many time the clay falls from the masters hand, God will keep moulding the clay until it is fashion after His will, and once fashioned after His will the vessel is put into the fire to keep it from ever returning to its old form .
Thus proving that all vessels pass through the fire, for without the baking process the vessel will always retain it's own will and turn to it's old form.
Now lets jump down to verses 16 & 17
In the KJV these scriptures seem to be saying God created the smith that bloweth the coals and the waster to destroy.
16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
Now lets look at the Septuagint for a TOTALLY different view then what the KJV seems to present.
Septuagint
16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
Which version seems to be more in lines with God who is love and love worketh NO evil?
You will all have to decide that for yourselves but I would like to point out one more thing concerning those verses.
If like the KJV states that God created the smith and the waster to destroy why does He then say NO weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper?
Surely if God formed these weapons against us they would prevail would they not?
God bless
Now some I have talked with bring up predestination and make an argument from that point. However, predestination does not work the way most seem to think it does.
Predestination has a starting point.When God sets before us the choice of life or death (as He did with Adam) and we chose life (this is by obedience) we are predestined to life. When we chose death as Adam did we are predestined to death.
Life and death are the two predestined roads/paths that God has given to man to choose from. But the predestined path only come AFTER the choice of man, NOT BEFORE man has made a choice.
QuoteWhy did God* sent the servants if He knew it would have no effect at all?
*=I starting to doubt more and more that His Son is correct. I think Father rarely mentioned in OT. Basicly that means Jesus sacrificed Himself.
You will have to explain this brother as I don't understand your point.
QuoteI think that's something we won't reach an agreement on.
Not so long ago WW you would have said the same thing to me if I had stated to you that Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, no ifs, ands, or buts.
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 06:51:13 PM
Excellent article pneuma. It really does make sense and makes me appreciate Jesus even more, knowing he sacrificed himself for our sins and came to save us.
Quote from: WExellhiteWings on June 01, 2011, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 05:29:43 PM
I don't believe God PRE-planned to sacrifice His Son.
So He switched to plan B when it vecame clear His creation was flawed?
-----------------
What's wrong with plan B?
You think God only has one plan?
I think God has multiple plans. He might plan to make you wings a president, but if you refuse he would have another plan so that you are a cleaner, learned how to clean properly, then God might change plan again and promote you to president.
QuoteHow many times have we read where God sent His servant to people in order to get them to repent? Was God just wasting His time by doing this? Did these servants suffer and die for nothing? They would have if God PRE-planned the sacrifice of His Son.
Why did God* sent the servants if He knew it would have no effect at all?
*=I starting to doubt more and more that His Son is correct. I think Father rarely mentioned in OT. Basicly that means Jesus sacrificed Himself.
QuoteThe sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not needed UNTIL man refused to obey His commandments. If man had of obeyed the voice of God in the garden God would not have had to sacrifice His Son. However because man refused to obey His voice God did that which He NEVER wanted to do.
I think that's something we won't reach an agreement on.
New things take time to learn.
Thanks TT
Quote from: rosered on June 01, 2011, 09:02:47 PM
Christ/ meaning annointed ..
Slain from the foundation of the world .................
I have an idea of it , but would make no sense to some ... I may explain it if anyone wants to hear it and critique it of course :laughing7:
Hi Rosered, it has been awhile.
What I put forth makes no sense to some either sis, so go ahead and post your thoughts, maybe we can make no sense together :laughing7:
TT, I overlooked your reply. I thought you just quote Scott and me but you hid some answers too :winkgrin:
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 06:51:13 PM
So He switched to plan B when it became clear His creation was flawed?
-----------------
What's wrong with plan B?
That type of question is similar to: Can God create a rock He can't lift?
That said plan B means:
a] Plan A failed.
b] Plan A was not perfect enough.
c] Plan A was fine but someone force God to change it.
My point is that not even God can improve His own perfect plan A. If He can plan A was not perfect. Or God learned new things, meaning He wasn't perfect when He made plan A
QuoteYou think God only has one plan?
Yes.
QuoteI think God has multiple plans. He might plan to make you wings a president, but if you refuse he would have another plan so that you are a cleaner, learned how to clean properly, then God might change plan again and promote you to president.
God knows I would refuse so He won't make me part of that plan. Or He gives me a Saul->Paul conversion.
QuoteNew things take time to learn.
No problem TT. If you don't understand just ask :icon_jokercolor:
Just kidding buddy everyone is allowed to his/her opinion. (me included :winkgrin:)
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 09:15:30 PM
QuoteSo He switched to plan B when it vecame clear His creation was flawed?
Not a plan B WW, God has always-wanted obedience, obedience is God's plan, always has been and always will be. Jesus says if you love me, you will keep my commandments.
That's another point we seem to disagree about. The "wanted" of God are not possibilities or hopes. They are facts.
QuoteWhen God placed Adam in the garden, he gave him the commandment not to eat of the TOGE.
Now to say God planned for Adam to eat from the tree is the same as saying Gods command not to eat from the tree is redundant.
It's a bit how you look at it. God has forknowledge and knew with split second accuracy when they would eat from tree. Long before Genesis 1:1.
He didn't redesign mankind so they wouldn't mess up. For me that means He accepted that would happen. And by accepting that it became His plan/will.
QuoteGod set before Adam the choice of life or death. Life was through obedience to the command not to eat, death through disobedience to that command. This is the same choice that is before us every day.
What you call a plan B is nothing but God responding to the movement of the clay.
So the lump of clay forces the hand of the Potter?
QuoteAnd we know that Adam fell by disobedience. Thus the potter did NOT mar the vessel the vessel fell and marred itself.
so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Thus the potter takes up the same clay and makes a NEW vessel out of it.
We are a NEW creation in Christ Jesus.
So a perfect potter made inperfect pots?
QuoteQuoteWhy did God* sent the servants if He knew it would have no effect at all?
*=I starting to doubt more and more that His Son is correct. I think Father rarely mentioned in OT. Basicly that means Jesus sacrificed Himself.
You will have to explain this brother as I don't understand your point.
Exactly what I wrote Scott. I think if the HS would rewrite the OT and replace all God, He, Lord, etc with either Father or Son you would see much, much more verses with Son than with Father.
QuoteQuoteI think that's something we won't reach an agreement on.
Not so long ago WW you would have said the same thing to me if I had stated to you that Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, no ifs, ands, or buts.
I have to guess what exactly you mean by that remark but let me say I "always" understood the Bible teaches salvation of all.
But yes it's possible we reach agreemnet on this in the future.
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 09:23:52 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 01, 2011, 09:02:47 PM
Christ/ meaning annointed ..
Slain from the foundation of the world .................
I have an idea of it , but would make no sense to some ... I may explain it if anyone wants to hear it and critique it of course :laughing7:
Hi Rosered, it has been awhile.
What I put forth makes no sense to some either sis, so go ahead and post your thoughts, maybe we can make no sense together :laughing7:
Seems we agree on something Scott :winkgrin:
Start posting (http://bestemailsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/rose-238x300.jpg)
Quote from: jabcat on June 01, 2011, 09:09:43 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 06:51:13 PM
Excellent article pneuma. It really does make sense and makes me appreciate Jesus even more, knowing he sacrificed himself for our sins and came to save us.
Quote from: WExellhiteWings on June 01, 2011, 06:09:14 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 05:29:43 PM
I don't believe God PRE-planned to sacrifice His Son.
So He switched to plan B when it vecame clear His creation was flawed?
-----------------
What's wrong with plan B?
You think God only has one plan?
I think God has multiple plans. He might plan to make you wings a president, but if you refuse he would have another plan so that you are a cleaner, learned how to clean properly, then God might change plan again and promote you to president.
QuoteHow many times have we read where God sent His servant to people in order to get them to repent? Was God just wasting His time by doing this? Did these servants suffer and die for nothing? They would have if God PRE-planned the sacrifice of His Son.
Why did God* sent the servants if He knew it would have no effect at all?
*=I starting to doubt more and more that His Son is correct. I think Father rarely mentioned in OT. Basicly that means Jesus sacrificed Himself.
QuoteThe sacrifice of Jesus Christ was not needed UNTIL man refused to obey His commandments. If man had of obeyed the voice of God in the garden God would not have had to sacrifice His Son. However because man refused to obey His voice God did that which He NEVER wanted to do.
I think that's something we won't reach an agreement on.
New things take time to learn.
I agree Tony. I believe in a God Who is all powerful, all knowing, and in control. He is not surprised, and doesn't have to ad lib. He knows the end from the beginning, and is in charge of it all.
As far as new things taking time to learn. There are lots of doctrines, and hopefully we're learning things according to a right division of the scriptures.
I also believe that God knows all things and is in charge. But also that we do not. Which means how can we say with certainty that God did not have other plans in the garden of Eden. Since there is 2 trees in the garden. Now it seems for some reason most Christians are like Eve and ignore the tree of life in the garden, and rush towards the tree of good and evil. Perhaps for some the tree of life is not an option and don't care for it. But for others the tree of life offers an opportunity. A opportunity that mankind did not partake in.
The fact that we chose the path of good and evil does not negate the opportunity of the tree of life.
I agree Jabcat there are many doctrines and not all are fruitful for learning. However I see that what I and pneuma have presented have a scriptural basis that is yet to be challenged. that does not take any glory from God, but yet in my opinion increases it and makes Him a savior that is willing to go to great lengths to save us from our short comings.
Hi Tank. Thanks for your kind reply. Actually, it's addressed all over the TM site, including on the homepage. Also, be aware some who "teach the scriptures" don't even believe all the scriptures are inspired, and pick and choose which ones they believe to be true. Word to the wise. Blessings, friend.
QuoteThat's another point we seem to disagree about. The "wanted" of God are not possibilities or hopes. They are facts.
Well God WANTED to take Israel under His wings as a hen does her chicks, but He could not because they would not have Him. So did God get what He wanted here? Not according to Jesus.
QuoteIt's a bit how you look at it. God has forknowledge and knew with split second accuracy when they would eat from tree. Long before Genesis 1:1.
He didn't redesign mankind so they wouldn't mess up. For me that means He accepted that would happen. And by accepting that it became His plan/will.
Foreknowledge works hand and hand with predestination. God foreknows every step man will make along the path man has chosen to walk. This does not mean God foreknows the choice man will make BEFORE man makes the choice. Jesus did NOT have to die on the cross, He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him and God would have supplied those legions of angels to do just that. But He(Jesus) choose obedience (not my will but thine be done).
Now you might say but God foreknew Jesus would make the choice He made, but if that is the case why then does it say God would have sent the 12 legions to deliver him?
QuoteSo the lump of clay forces the hand of the Potter?
Talk with anyone who works with clay WW, or watch a video of someone working with clay, you will see how the hands of the potter
continually move to and fro over the clay until it is perfectly formed.
QuoteSo a perfect potter made inperfect pots?
Yes. We are NOT yet made in the image and likeness of God, only the image and likeness of God is a perfect vessel.
QuoteExactly what I wrote Scott. I think if the HS would rewrite the OT and replace all God, He, Lord, etc with either Father or Son you would see much, much more verses with Son than with Father.
OK, so what does that have to do with what I have said?
QuoteI have to guess what exactly you mean by that remark but let me say I "always" understood the Bible teaches salvation of all.
But yes it's possible we reach agreemnet on this in the future.
It could be that I am confusing you with another brother, but I thought at one time you were an atheist or at least leaned toward atheism.
Quote from: jabcat on June 01, 2011, 10:01:24 PM
Hi Tank. Thanks for your kind reply. Actually, it's addressed all over the TM site, including on the homepage. Also, be aware some who "teach the scriptures" don't even believe all the scriptures are inspired, and pick and choose which ones they believe to be true. Word to the wise. Blessings, friend.
Jab that is a misrepresentation of what I have said and what I beleive.
TT read this link and make up your own mind.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/someone_help_me_please..._9407.msg117847.html#msg117847
Hi Scott. I know what you've said, and my statement includes many people. I've seen those type of sentiments in many places places in UR.
What you specifically said is that you don't believe all the scriptures in the Bible are really scripture - only the ones you believe are scripture are the ones you believe are inspired. Which IMO, leaves one picking and choosing which scriptures they believe are true. Also IMO, your definition of the scriptures is a misrepresentation.
Doesn't mean you're not my brother, but we have some quite basic, foundational disagreements; and at the very least, if those I have disagreements with believe the scriptures are reliable and trustworthy (accurately translated, Spirit revealed) then we have a standard of which to refer. But OTOH, if one picks and chooses what they accept as scripture, then one's really pretty much free to believe and say anything they wish. Which one can do anyway, but may expect to be (hopefully gently, lovingly) "confronted".
Yes, TT can make up his own mind, I didn't tell him not to. But I like to know the perspective from which information I'm consuming is coming from, and it may be of others' benefit as well. If not, they're free to ignore it and move on.
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
This might annoy some of you, but this might be the truth of the matter and bring greater understanding.
The lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.
This verse is used to prove that God prepared Adam and Eve to fail. That he deliberatly wanted them to fail in the garden.
But...the lnaguage here used is "world". not Earth.
This makes a difference.
Jesus Christ came to save the world. The world heareth them, but he that heareth God is not of the world.
So when did the world begin?
Genesis 1.1?
I believe it started sometime after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out from Eden, into the world.
Which means that the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was slain and prepared as a sacrifice AFTER Adam and Eve sinned.
I will say this, nothing "failed," God did not make anything or anyone to fail. All has His Plan and Purpose.
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 10:19:49 PM
QuoteThat's another point we seem to disagree about. The "wanted" of God are not possibilities or hopes. They are facts.
Well God WANTED to take Israel under His wings as a hen does her chicks, but He could not because they would not have Him. So did God get what He wanted here? Not according to Jesus.
I understand your point but I don't think is means God failed. I can't express how I think about it. But maybe this gives a impression of what I mean.
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree they hid from God. God asked "where are you?" Did God really not know where Adam and Eve where hiding?
QuoteForeknowledge works hand and hand with predestination. God foreknows every step man will make along the path man has chosen to walk. This does not mean God foreknows the choice man will make BEFORE man makes the choice.
That's foreknowledge without foreknowing :dontknow:
QuoteJesus did NOT have to die on the cross, He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him and God would have supplied those legions of angels to do just that. But He(Jesus) choose obedience (not my will but thine be done).
Now you might say but God foreknew Jesus would make the choice He made, but if that is the case why then does it say God would have sent the 12 legions to deliver him?
If Jesus called the legions He wouldn't have be crucified. At that tiem He would have become the Saviour of no one.
QuoteQuoteSo a perfect potter made inperfect pots?
Yes. We are NOT yet made in the image and likeness of God,
I agree because the verse about the image is abad translation. (imo)
only the image and likeness of God is a perfect vessel.
QuoteQuoteI have to guess what exactly you mean by that remark but let me say I "always" understood the Bible teaches salvation of all.
But yes it's possible we reach agreemnet on this in the future.
It could be that I am confusing you with another brother, but I thought at one time you were an atheist or at least leaned toward atheism.
That's me. But I think I have to clarify things a bit.
From near the start of my search I was sure the Bible teaches UR. It's a book that's written well with many complex story lines. So far I think I'm in agreement with most on this forum. My struggle is that I still have doubt if it was divinely inspired or it just had a good human writer.
QuoteHi Scott. I know what you've said, and my statement includes many people. I've seen those type of sentiments in many places places in UR.
What you specifically said is that you don't believe all the scriptures in the Bible are really scripture - only the ones you believe are scripture are the ones you believe are inspired. Which IMO, leaves one picking and choosing which scriptures they believe are true. Also IMO, your definition of the scriptures is a misrepresentation.
Your free to believe what you want to Jab, but to tell other to BE AWARE of me because I don't believe everything in today's bibles are scripture is going a little far don't you think.
What you are implying to TT is that he is in error in what he believes because he is in agreement with me on this topic.
QuoteDoesn't mean you're not my brother, but we have some quite basic, foundational disagreements; and at the very least, if those I have disagreements with believe the scriptures are reliable and trustworthy (accurately translated, Spirit revealed) then we have a standard of which to refer. But OTOH, if one picks and chooses what they accept as scripture, then one's really pretty much free to believe and say anything they wish. Which one can do anyway, but may expect to be (hopefully gently, lovingly) "confronted".
Yes I am your brother Jab, but I have explain why I believe what I do on that link. So if you do not believe that the lying pen of the scribes ADDED to scripture as Jeremiah states are you not picking and choosing which scripture you want to believe?
Can you not see that the argument that you presented above can go both ways?
QuoteYes, TT can make up his own mind, I didn't tell him not to. But I like to know the perspective from which information I'm consuming is coming from, and it may be of others' benefit as well. If not, they're free to ignore it and move on.
Basically saying if you agree with Scott you better be aware that he does not believe everything in the bible is scripture. Therefore implying if they agree with what I have said they are in error.
A simple test for you Jab (and anyone else who cares to take the time to look it up)
1Jn.5:7
Inspired word of God or, an interpolation by man?
Foreknowledge works hand and hand with predestination. God foreknows every step man will make along the path man has chosen to walk. This does not mean God foreknows the choice man will make BEFORE man makes the choice. Jesus did NOT have to die on the cross, He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him and God would have supplied those legions of angels to do just that. But He(Jesus) choose obedience (not my will but thine be done).
Now you might say but God foreknew Jesus would make the choice He made, but if that is the case why then does it say God would have sent the 12 legions to deliver him?
Pneuma
-------------
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
....Brings a whole new meaning to Father Sacrificing His only begotten Son
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 11:06:49 PMYes I am your brother Jab, but I have explain why I believe what I do on that link. So if you do not believe that the lying pen of the scribes ADDED to scripture as Jeremiah states are you not picking and choosing which scripture you want to believe?
What link??? (what verse)
Without having read your article I can say the Scribes indeed added lots of junk. But as far as I know not to the OT itself but in their own scrolls (they also used for teaching and ruling)
QuoteI understand your point but I don't think is means God failed. I can't express how I think about it. But maybe this gives a impression of what I mean.
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree they hid from God. God asked "where are you?" Did God really not know where Adam and Eve where hiding?
I don't believe God failed either WW. Reread my post God did not want to sacrifice His Son.
You will not see God failing, you will see God getting all He desires. Either by obedience or sacrifice God in the end gets it ALL. But that does not mean He wanted or pre-planned to sacrifice Jesus.
The very idea of sacrifice is the giving of something precious that you really do not want to give. If you want to give it, it really isn't a sacrifice.
QuoteThat's foreknowledge without foreknowing
That's not what I am saying brother. When we chose death God knows every step we will have to endure because of that choice, the same as when we chose life God knows every blessing we will get because of that choice.
QuoteIf Jesus called the legions He wouldn't have be crucified. At that tiem He would have become the Saviour of no one.
Your missing the point brother. Could Jesus have called for the 12 legions of angel and would God have sent them? Yes or no.
If yes, (and Jesus says its yes) then obviously Jesus believed He could have set aside Gods plan for him by exercising His own will instead of the Fathers.
QuoteI agree because the verse about the image is abad translation. (imo)
only the image and likeness of God is a perfect vessel.
Another agreement, see your already starting to agree with me :laughing7:
QuoteThat's me. But I think I have to clarify things a bit.
From near the start of my search I was sure the Bible teaches UR. It's a book that's written well with many complex story lines. So far I think I'm in agreement with most on this forum. My struggle is that I still have doubt if it was divinely inspired or it just had a good human writer.
LOL then you might enjoy the link I provided.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 01, 2011, 11:20:56 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 11:06:49 PMYes I am your brother Jab, but I have explain why I believe what I do on that link. So if you do not believe that the lying pen of the scribes ADDED to scripture as Jeremiah states are you not picking and choosing which scripture you want to believe?
What link??? (what verse)
Without having read your article I can say the Scribes indeed added lots of junk. But as far as I know not to the OT itself but in their own scrolls (they also used for teaching and ruling)
this link WW
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/someone_help_me_please..._9407.msg117847.html#msg117847
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
Foreknowledge works hand and hand with predestination. God foreknows every step man will make along the path man has chosen to walk. This does not mean God foreknows the choice man will make BEFORE man makes the choice. Jesus did NOT have to die on the cross, He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him and God would have supplied those legions of angels to do just that. But He(Jesus) choose obedience (not my will but thine be done).
Now you might say but God foreknew Jesus would make the choice He made, but if that is the case why then does it say God would have sent the 12 legions to deliver him?
Pneuma
-------------
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
....Brings a whole new meaning to Father Sacrificing His only begotten Son
:thumbsup:
Now that a sacrifice worth talking about
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38
Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.
Quote from: pneuma on June 01, 2011, 11:06:49 PM
QuoteHi Scott. I know what you've said, and my statement includes many people. I've seen those type of sentiments in many places places in UR.
What you specifically said is that you don't believe all the scriptures in the Bible are really scripture - only the ones you believe are scripture are the ones you believe are inspired. Which IMO, leaves one picking and choosing which scriptures they believe are true. Also IMO, your definition of the scriptures is a misrepresentation.
Your free to believe what you want to Jab, but to tell other to BE AWARE of me because I don't believe everything in today's bibles are scripture is going a little far don't you think.
What you are implying to TT is that he is in error in what he believes because he is in agreement with me on this topic.
If I may, let me suggest what I believe is going too far, Scott. Blatantly going against the rules of the forum. You've been allowed to do so now twice in the last few times you've been on. If you read the FAQ's you'll see that ONCE (in this category - "trashing" [discounting] the scriptures) is typically considered a "fatal" action. Please take this into consideration.
Warning someone of listening to people who don't believe the whole of the scriptures, is in fact, our duty. I agree we must be careful, as none of us has all the truth and understanding, so differences of opinion are to be expected. Still, just to my own understanding, I believe there are some bottom lines (including forum guidelines) - and Paul said to expose those who contradict. Tank, you, anyone, can believe whatever they will, but I will encourage TT or others that
at the very least they need to cast their lot with believers who don't pick and choose what scriptures THEY accept, while rejecting large portions of others. IMO, that leaves doctrine up to whatever the mind says it is. Tank has POVs that are different than others on the forum, and vice versa. But as far as I know, he believes all scripture is inspired, and that except for any known translational issues, the scriptures can be trusted as
a guide. Therefor, fruitful exploration and discussion can occur. But if the starting point is "much of what's in the Bible isn't true", then IMO, anything can be said and attempted to be presented as the truth - and often is. I believe a person, especially on this forum, needs to have information available to them about what perspective an individual is coming from. Then they can make up their own mind.
Your John example is somewhat irrelevant in
this discussion, because that (and a VERY FEW others) are pretty known/proven translational issues - which is not what this is about - it's about arbitrarily thowing out whole chunks of scripture because they don't fit with our own view and understanding of personal doctrine (or whatever the reason may be). As WW said, the scribes added and deleted all kinds of things
in their own writings and Jewish fables.
As for the most part of this thread has been able to do, let's please move back to the OP. Thanks, James.
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38
Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.
"as long as" <— ???
He specifically states that He came to do the Fathers will.
Period.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
That's another miracle/feat that I see Christ accomplished.
Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 01:08:08 AM
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
That's another miracle/feat that I see Christ accomplished.
Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not
Amen. Wonderful, touching scriptures.
wow , yall ' are so fast Lol I dont stand a snowballs chance ha ha , gone a few hours and wheww!! got to read another page !! :HeartThrob: good stuff guys , :icon_flower:
Thanks WW, Scott and Think tank , love that last scripture :) it also pertains to this idea I hope to express , without sin :thumbsup: being innocent /righteous blood in other words the innocent are slain / Body of Christ , our first example is Able , this innocent/righteous blood shed , was the first example to me
This was why Jesus Christ /meaning salvation annoited though obedience Abel was a keeper of sheep
with this in mind Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Eve was being saved though childbearing we see this example of the knowledge of good and evil
through Cain and Abel
Cain slew Abel
and we know Ables blood cried out from the ground / this blood shed was innocent /righteous blood
Him being part of the Body of Christ Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
because at the End of the Age Jesus Christ made the open show and said forgive them Father for they know not what they do ..... this Mercy come openly
where as Abel needed avenging
Jesus spoke this and it makes sense to me now why from the foundation to right up where Jesus was fixing to go the the cross Onely no one made him do this but it was Gods will the Father , to MAKE PLAINLY KNOWN from than to right now and whoever will read and believe it
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
its the same ol story over and over again to hate your broher is the same as a murderer in your heart that must be made clean / ridding your conscience of the evil thoughts that keep us bound to sin /death
:( hope this makes some kind of sense or i will have to go back into silent mode :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2011, 01:10:37 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 01:08:08 AM
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
That's another miracle/feat that I see Christ accomplished.
Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not
Amen. Wonderful, touching scriptures.
Hi James :HeartThrob: these are awesome
hope you have it in your heart to forgive me for leaving in the Judas huff thread , I had to take a break , I was having a hard time explaining some thoughts ... I was never mad just weary , a Truth :icon_flower:
Hey rosie. nothing to forgive dear sister. we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :). some days I'm much lumpier than others.
good to see you :LoveH1:
Quote from: Roseredand we know Ables blood cried out from the ground / this blood shed was innocent /righteous blood
Him being part of the Body of Christ Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Hi Rosered, are you saying here that Abel is part of the body of Christ? How do you know this?
Is Cain also part of the body of Christ? Thanks. WB!
:cloud9: My :2c:.....it's not He doesn't like sacrifice, it's that He doesn't like OUR sacrifices, just like He said we are gods but die like men. The focus is not on dying, but on HOW we die, just as the focus is not on sacrifice, but on HOW we sacrifice.
The sacrifice that is being esteemed, is laying down our life for our brother. The Son was doing in the end of that age, what He saw the Father do IN THE BEGINNING, from the foundation of THAT world, as a visible example of that which is not seen with natural eyes. We couldn't perceive what the Father did in the Spirit in the beginning, but we could perceive the Son walking it out in shoe leather, because only the Son knows the Father. He did it for us.
He said He only did what He saw His Father do, and that includes, a sacrifice of Himself, because when God who is Spirit, poured Himself and fragmented Himself into His creation, it was a type of "death" or sacrifice to Him, as He lowered Himself out of the spiritual and into the physical. Blessings....
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2011, 01:59:24 AM
Hey rosie. nothing to forgive dear sister. we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :). some days I'm much lumpier than others.
good to see you :LoveH1:
HA HA HA ! Best chuckle I had all Day ! THANKS for the hard belly laugh :laughing7: :laughing7:
good to be amongst friends again :HeartThrob: missed you guys really , its true
:cloud9: That is a good one, somehow I missed that comment in my haste :laughing7: Glad you're back, Rosie, check your PM's..... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 02:09:02 AM
Quote from: Roseredand we know Ables blood cried out from the ground / this blood shed was innocent /righteous blood
Him being part of the Body of Christ Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
Hi Rosered, are you saying here that Abel is part of the body of Christ? How do you know this?
Is Cain also part of the body of Christ? Thanks. WB!
Will Hi Miss Molly by golly ! :HeartThrob:
How do I know this , by this scripture Sis 1Cr 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
the righteous blood shed for a covering for sin is Christ right ??
is not Abel apart of Jesus Christ ? I say YES !
Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
The werid thing , most cannot hear me speak is because , seeing that good and evil in action cain represents the evil as Abel the good , in the tree of knowledge of good and evil we first experince
by scriptures than on a personal level
cain his works , done in his body was by the wicked one , its the works sis , thats judged of God
note its the works always judged of God I see Cain as a prisoner of sin / death , he went off in fear after his wicked work
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
hope this helps
Jesus has overcome the wicked one , so when cain dies in the flesh / temporial realm / he will be free from sin because Jesus knew that those bound to sin would need to be delivered ..
thats how I am seeing this at this time ... you may have something else to make me think differnt
some times the thoughts , or how we think , of earthly or of the heavenly , makes us bound or free
I come and go often 0-O ..
Quote from: Cardinal on June 02, 2011, 02:38:11 AM
:cloud9: That is a good one, somehow I missed that comment in my haste :laughing7: Glad you're back, Rosie, check your PM's..... :HeartThrob:
Hey Girly ! :gangel: I did check my pm 's and see nothing ?? anyhoo ! its great to see you sista C :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 02, 2011, 02:25:49 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2011, 01:59:24 AM
Hey rosie. nothing to forgive dear sister. we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :). some days I'm much lumpier than others.
good to see you :LoveH1:
HA HA HA ! Best chuckle I had all Day ! THANKS for the hard belly laugh :laughing7: :laughing7:
good to be amongst friends again :HeartThrob: missed you guys really , its true
Well, it's true :mblush:
Struggling through one of those days. But God is good, and He's mighty to save.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2011, 06:49:13 AM
Quote from: rosered on June 02, 2011, 02:25:49 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2011, 01:59:24 AM
Hey rosie. nothing to forgive dear sister. we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :). some days I'm much lumpier than others.
good to see you :LoveH1:
HA HA HA ! Best chuckle I had all Day ! THANKS for the hard belly laugh :laughing7: :laughing7:
good to be amongst friends again :HeartThrob: missed you guys really , its true
Well, it's true :mblush:
Struggling through one of those days. But God is good, and He's mighty to save.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ
awesome ! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on June 02, 2011, 12:37:34 AM
If I may, let me suggest what I believe is going too far, Scott. Blatantly going against the rules of the forum. You've been allowed to do so now twice in the last few times you've been on. If you read the FAQ's you'll see that ONCE (in this category - "trashing" [discounting] the scriptures) is typically considered a "fatal" action. Please take this into consideration.
Warning someone of listening to people who don't believe the whole of the scriptures, is in fact, our duty. I agree we must be careful, as none of us has all the truth and understanding, so differences of opinion are to be expected.
Everyone can argue opions and even forum rules. But there is a big problem with that. So big this forum is a waste of time.
Hereby I state Jesus had red hair. Prove me wrong with a verse. If you can prove me wrong I just answer the scribes messed up.
That's the real problem I have with your views Scott. It's not that you disagree with me (many do) but it's impossible to discuss what the Bible teaches if we never can know what it teaches due to scribes who messed up.
:2c:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38
Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.
"as long as" <— ???
He specifically states that He came to do the Fathers will.
Period.
Yes He came to do the will of the Father
But that does not mean He did not have a will of His own that if He followed He would have sinned.
Tell me was His temptation by satan and His garden experince just a sham?
Pneuma, I agree with a lot of what you have said.
But did you say who or what was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
If you did, I missed it.
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38
Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.
"as long as" <— ???
He specifically states that He came to do the Fathers will.
Period.
Yes He came to do the will of the Father
But that does not mean He did not have a will of His own that if He followed He would have sinned.
Tell me was His temptation by satan and His garden experince just a sham?
Read that Jesus was tempted
AFTER the Father announced that in Him He was well pleased!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38
Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.
"as long as" <— ???
He specifically states that He came to do the Fathers will.
Period.
Yes He came to do the will of the Father
But that does not mean He did not have a will of His own that if He followed He would have sinned.
Tell me was His temptation by satan and His garden experince just a sham?
Read that Jesus was tempted AFTER the Father announced that in Him He was well pleased!
Jesus prayed to be delivered of this cup in the garden--and that prayer was answered! The cross was his choice.
The Cross is eternal.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:17:37 PM
Pneuma, I agree with a lot of what you have said.
But did you say who or what was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
If you did, I missed it.
Hi sis, check out reply # 30
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:44:10 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 04:09:01 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 12:31:57 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 01, 2011, 11:11:09 PM
That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.
It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38
Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.
"as long as" <— ???
He specifically states that He came to do the Fathers will.
Period.
Yes He came to do the will of the Father
But that does not mean He did not have a will of His own that if He followed He would have sinned.
Tell me was His temptation by satan and His garden experince just a sham?
Read that Jesus was tempted AFTER the Father announced that in Him He was well pleased!
So does that prove that His temptations were just a sham?
Was He really tempted or wasn't He.
Could He have sinned by following His own will?
Can a leopard change its spots? It's all rhetoric.
Luke's Account:
25 And lo! there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name is Simeon. And this man is just and pious, anticipating the consolation of Israel, and holy spirit was on him.
26 And he was apprised by the holy spirit that he would not be acquainted with death ere he should be acquainted with the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came, in the spirit, into the sanctuary, and as the parents are bringing in the little Boy Jesus, for them to do according to the custom of the law concerning Him,
28 he also receives Him, clasping Him in his arms. And he blesses God, and said,
29 "Now art Thou dismissing Thy slave, O Owner, According to Thy declaration, in peace,
30 For my eyes perceived Thy Salvation
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
You still did not answer the question.
was Jesus temptation just a sham or were they real temptations?
for this purpose was Jesus come and sent and made known !! THE CROSS :HeartThrob:
HEAR the Lord ..
Jhn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Col 2 all of it is signifigant ..
and this 1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God :HeartThrob:
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 06:13:20 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
You still did not answer the question.
was Jesus temptation just a sham or were they real temptations?
Real to me ... what are we told to do but take up our cross and follow Him this means to suffer even suffer temptation and overcome with them and the Lord will deliver us , by faith beliving
Mat 16:24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Quote from: rosered on June 02, 2011, 06:18:50 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 06:13:20 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
You still did not answer the question.
was Jesus temptation just a sham or were they real temptations?
Real to me ... what are we told to do but take up our cross and follow Him this means to suffer even suffer temptation and overcome with them and the Lord will deliver us , by faith beliving
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Amen Rose, they were real and as they were real Jesus could have sinned, but He overcame the temptation by following the WILL of the FATHER.
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
like sheep to the slaughter so are we going Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
as was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ..Body of Christ its an open BOOK to many who have been given the eyesof percieving to see this happen :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
Ok. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ
before the foundation of the world.
That word for 'before' is 'pro'. It means 'prior to'. It's a different word from the one used in this verse which is
apo--the lamb slain
from the foundation of the world.
The fact that it was foreordained, that is foreknown, does not mean that it was still not Christ's choice. It was his choice. His prayer was answered. He was given the opportunity to walk away. It was foreknown that he would not waiver in his purpose.
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 06:13:20 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
You still did not answer the question.
was Jesus temptation just a sham or were they real temptations?
I believe so and invites us to overcome with Him
1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 06:20:46 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 02, 2011, 06:18:50 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 06:13:20 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
You still did not answer the question.
was Jesus temptation just a sham or were they real temptations?
Real to me ... what are we told to do but take up our cross and follow Him this means to suffer even suffer temptation and overcome with them and the Lord will deliver us , by faith beliving
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Amen Rose, they were real and as they were real Jesus could have sinned, but He overcame the temptation by following the WILL of the FATHER.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Jhn 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth
whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
we are as the dead and our hearts /graves opened to recieve Him gives us life through HIM , GODS WILL being done on earth as it is in heaven :) :HeartThrob:
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 06:26:02 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 06:13:20 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
You still did not answer the question.
was Jesus temptation just a sham or were they real temptations?
I believe so and invites us to overcome with Him
1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
amen ! a heartly amen Bro TT ! :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
Ok. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ before the foundation of the world.
That word for 'before' is 'pro'. It means 'prior to'. It's a different word from the one used in this verse which is apo--the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The fact that it was foreordained, that is foreknown, does not mean that it was still not Christ's choice. It was his choice. His prayer was answered. He was given the opportunity to walk away. It was foreknown that he would not waiver in his purpose.
Yes Sis why He was sent by the Father the POWER OF GOD and Wisdom of God and made manifest in the earth :HeartThrob:
1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
proverbs 8
22 "The Lord formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.
23 I was appointed in ages past,
at the very first, before the earth began.
24 I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
25 Before the mountains were formed,
before the hills, I was born—
26 before he had made the earth and fields
and the first handfuls of soil.
27 I was there when he established the heavens,
when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
28 I was there when he set the clouds above,
when he established springs deep in the earth.
29 I was there when he set the limits of the seas,
so they would not spread beyond their boundaries.
And when he marked off the earth's foundations,
30 I was the architect at his side.
I was his constant delight,
rejoicing always in his presence.
31 And how happy I was with the world he created;
how I rejoiced with the human family!
:HeartThrob: wowza!! :cloud9:
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
Ok. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ before the foundation of the world.
That word for 'before' is 'pro'. It means 'prior to'. It's a different word from the one used in this verse which is apo--the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The fact that it was foreordained, that is foreknown, does not mean that it was still not Christ's choice. It was his choice. His prayer was answered. He was given the opportunity to walk away. It was foreknown that he would not waiver in his purpose.
But would that impact His decision? Does the fact that the knows the outcome, influence His decision to come into the world. Does He really look at future events before they unfold?
For one even though God knows the end from the beginning, doesn't that mean that he had to have gone through it so to speak?
How can he know the future if he had yet performed it?
Maybe when God knows all things it simply means that he has already accomplished all things, so he has full video footage of the entire universal events, and we are currently living in that fixed time frame.
So he would have to have gone to the cross, at some point, not knowing what would happen. So the question is whether he relied on pure Faith in the FAther that He would deliver His beloved Son not knowing the outcome, or that His faith was based on the foreknowledge that whatever happens, all is well, because he already knows the outcome that he would overcome. Or perhaps it is based on both types of faith.
Tempted? The scripture is plain on that!
"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
He does not add to it!
There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. He came to do the Fathers will. The Father is first pleased with Him before any temptations of Christ — HE IS THE ANOINTED ONE.
GREAT Verses and point Bro T , aka WW!! :icon_flower: Amen the 3 are one ' one Body ONE GOD ALL IN ALL
see were all connected in ways , way past figuring it out ! :happy3:
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
so we are still dead without the works of the 3 Holy Spirit /FATHER / CHRIST in us doing the very works
is than ....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:46:28 PM
Tempted? The scripture is plain on that!
"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
He does not add to it!
There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. He came to do the Fathers will. The Father is first pleased with Him before any temptations of Christ — HE IS THE ANOINTED ONE.
YES !! and if you can SEE it many before , now and to come are made up in the BODY OF CHRIST / annointed ONE its the living breathing , moving Spirit that does all the good and perfect works of Gods Will
:HeartThrob:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For
we are also his offspring. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:46:28 PM
Tempted? The scripture is plain on that!
"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
He does not add to it!
There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. He came to do the Fathers will. The Father is first pleased with Him before any temptations of Christ — HE IS THE ANOINTED ONE.
well I would think Jesus was tempted from His youth just as we are, you seem to think His temptations only came when He was 30 years of age.
Talk to some young people they will tell you differently.
Being anointed does not mean one cannot sin, David was anointed of God and look what he did.
Jesus overcame all temptation and NEVER sinned because He always did the WILL of the FATHER.
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 06:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 04:56:53 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 04:54:18 PM
The Cross is eternal.
not disputing, but is there a scripture for that?
"Forasmuch as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:18-20).
Ok. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ before the foundation of the world.
That word for 'before' is 'pro'. It means 'prior to'. It's a different word from the one used in this verse which is apo--the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
The fact that it was foreordained, that is foreknown, does not mean that it was still not Christ's choice. It was his choice. His prayer was answered. He was given the opportunity to walk away. It was foreknown that he would not waiver in his purpose.
But would that impact His decision? Does the fact that the knows the outcome, influence His decision to come into the world. Does He really look at future events before they unfold?
For one even though God knows the end from the beginning, doesn't that mean that he had to have gone through it so to speak?
How can he know the future if he had yet performed it?
Maybe when God knows all things it simply means that he has already accomplished all things, so he has full video footage of the entire universal events, and we are currently living in that fixed time frame.
So he would have to have gone to the cross, at some point, not knowing what would happen. So the question is whether he relied on pure Faith in the FAther that He would deliver His beloved Son not knowing the outcome, or that His faith was based on the foreknowledge that whatever happens, all is well, because he already knows the outcome that he would overcome. Or perhaps it is based on both types of faith.
We know the outcome. How well does that work for us? Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. When he was in the likeness of human flesh, it had to be similar for him, or he wouldn't be tempted in all things as we are.
So when we see him making all decisions based on faith, we also know that is possible for us as well. We can do that too, with the faith of Jesus Christ.
Jesus never could sin. Period.
It was no coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.
QuoteOk. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ before the foundation of the world.
foreordained before which world? this one or the one to come?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
Jesus never could sin. Period.
It was no coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.
Well if He could never sin then all His temptations were just a sham.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
Jesus never could sin. Period.
It was no coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.
Exactly ! amen Beloved servant ! agree :icon_flower:
born from above concieved though the Holy Spirit as we are also born again though Him :HeartThrob:
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. its all about LOVE ... GOD IS LOVE
Love overcomes the world :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
Jesus never could sin. Period.
It was no coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.
He DID NOT sin.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.--Heb 4:15
Quote from: Molly on June 02, 2011, 07:14:47 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:09:37 PM
Jesus never could sin. Period.
It was no coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.
He DID NOT sin.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin.
--Heb 4:15
Yes Molly, that He was tempted as we are in all point and it is pointed out that in these temptation He never sinned shows that He could have sucummed to the temptations but did NOT. By following the Fathers will instead of His own He over came. Just as if we follow the will of Christ we to will overcome.
the simplicity in Christ is pure , HOLY , untouched by any thing of this world its the HOLY TRUTH , Gods Word /seed planted inin our hearts to Live and grow in Truth and grace of Gods will
its so well hidden and the world cannot even see it ...
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Tempted does not imply fallibility.
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 07:12:03 PM
QuoteOk. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ before the foundation of the world.
foreordained before which world? this one or the one to come?
I would have to think this one because the next age will be based on restoration, not a casting down. But if you have other information, I'll listen.
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 07:12:03 PM
QuoteOk. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ before the foundation of the world.
foreordained before which world? this one or the one to come?
Kosmos: an apt and harmonious arrangement
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:20:37 PM
Tempted does not imply fallibility.
well, you know, I think of it as an owner's manual. I have this car[body] I want to drive, and I have to figure out how to drive it without running it into a tree.
So I read the manual, and the information I get is that I can drive it successfully with the faith of Jesus Christ. [There's other information in there, too.]
Let Him drive.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:20:37 PM
Tempted does not imply fallibility.
What about this scripture
Hebrews 5
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
God speed, Tank.
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:20:37 PM
Tempted does not imply fallibility.
What about this scripture
Hebrews 5
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Exactly. We are made perfect by uniting with him.
How was he made perfect? by uniting with the Father. This is what makes him our mediator and the captain of our salvation.
Discussions like this make me realize all over again why I love Jesus so much. He has done everything he possibly can to make things easy for us.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
--John 17
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:27:55 PM
God speed, Tank.
:bigGrin: First time i have heard someone bless me with that expression. Clever too seeing we were talking about cars.
God bless you to Beloved.
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:20:37 PM
Tempted does not imply fallibility.
What about this scripture
Hebrews 5
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Luke 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
yes and if He had to resist sin it is obvious that He could have sinned, but did not.
That is why He is the author of our salvation
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 07:21:20 PM
Quote from: pneuma on June 02, 2011, 07:12:03 PM
QuoteOk. That's a good scripture that says it was foreknown that we would be redeemed by the precious blood of Christ before the foundation of the world.
foreordained before which world? this one or the one to come?
Kosmos: an apt and harmonious arrangement
Ya so, do you think this is the only Kosmos that will ever be?
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Tempted does not mean fallibility.
He did not resist sin; He met it head-on with the Word of God.
So does anyone agree that the world spoken of in this thread means the fallen system? rather than world as in "Earth"?
I believe it means system, but I also believe that is open to interpretation/understanding; including that the earth could be part of that system. :scratchhead:
edit - OK, I thought some more. :) I believe in creation, but I'm not a new-earther; I believe there was likely more than one creation, then a disruption, then this particular creation or system. So......
Quote from: thinktank on June 03, 2011, 10:22:40 PM
So does anyone agree that the world spoken of in this thread means the fallen system? rather than world as in "Earth"?
Then the Scripture would be read:
The Lamb that was Slain from the fallen system.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 12:31:10 AM
Quote from: thinktank on June 03, 2011, 10:22:40 PM
So does anyone agree that the world spoken of in this thread means the fallen system? rather than world as in "Earth"?
Then the Scripture would be read:
The Lamb that was Slain from the fallen system.
It does say that.
the lamb slain from
katabolē kosmos
There is another Greek word that is translated into the same English word, 'foundation.' as we see in this verse:
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure..
-2 Tim 2:19
"foundation"
G2310
θεμέλιος
themelios
them-el'-ee-os
From a derivative of G5087; something put down, that is, a substruction (of a building, etc.), (literally or figuratively): - foundation.
Themelios has a different meaning from kataballō
but they translate it into the same English word, 'foundation,' thereby obscuring the meaning.
Then we can understand it as "because of."
The Lamb was slain because of the fallen system as if Adam took God by surprise.
I'm really pondering a couple of things about this topic. I found the following which was interesting, especially the "such as planting seeds in the ground" comment.
Before the foundation of the world - In eternity past God planned to send His Son to redeem the world.
Before (4253) (pro) in a spatial sense means in front of or as used in this verse in a temporal sense to refer to a time prior to the time the world was created.
Foundation (2602) (katabole from kata = down + ballo = throw, cast) literally refers to that which has been thrown or cast down and thus to that which forms the foundation. The original idea was the laying down of the foundation of a house.
Katabole - 11x in NT - Matt. 13:35; 25:34; Lk. 11:50; Jn. 17:24; Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3; 9:26; 11:11; 1 Pet. 1:20; Rev. 13:8; 17:8
Katabole was a technical term for putting seed into the ground, it is also used of the role of the male in impregnating the female and there is one such use in Hebrews 11:11, referring to the casting in or sowing of seed, conveying the idea of begetting.
TDNT adds that katabole meant...
laying down," is used for, e.g., the casting of seed, human begetting, the sowing of war, and the establishment of government.
World (2889) (kosmos) means the world with its primary meaning being order, regular disposition and arrangement, here referring in essence to God's creation of the heavens and earth that we know today.
Christ's sacrifice for the sins of the world was not an afterthought, not something God decided to do when the world spun out of control because sin had entered it. Before God ever created the foundation of the world, in the mind of God, Christ had been sacrificed, and the names of the redeemed were known. Paul writes that the Father...
chose (elected) us in Him (in Christ) before the foundation (katabole) of the world (kosmos), (Why did God do it? What was His purpose?) that we should be holy and blameless before Him. (See...Ephesians 1:4)
http://www.preceptaustin.org/1_peter_120-21.htm
Quotethe Father.. chose (elected) us in Him (in Christ) before the foundation (katabole) of the world (kosmos), (Why did God do it? What was His purpose?) that we should be holy and blameless before Him.
Now this is the crux of the issue I think. God allows the world to be cast down by Satan, but at the same time makes sure there are those who will be a light to the world. This is the idea of salt. Also, the idea of seed sown into a fallen world--it is sown in dishonor, Paul tells us, but raised in glory.
If Adam is one of these--the lambkin slain from the casting down of the orderly system of God--then the book of life is his DNA. I would think you guys would like this thought because it means that all men will be saved.
Nevertheless, Jesus himself points to Adam, calling himself over and over again, the son of Adam.
There is no DNA of Adam in Jesus.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 01:49:00 AM
There is no DNA of Adam in Jesus.
His physical geneaology is taken back to Adam--Luke 3.
Was Joseph His father?
He was conceived of the Spirit.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 02:44:57 AM
Was Joseph His father?
He was conceived of the Spirit.
Mary was his mother.
surrogate.
Luke 3, your reference, speaks only of Joseph.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 03:05:46 AM
Luke 3, your reference, speaks only of Joseph.
both genealogies only speak of men, but they are different.
One is for Joseph and one is for Mary. They are different but neither mentions Mary because they are taken back through the males, being a paternalistic society.
John the Baptist was Jesus' cousin through Mary and also a Levite priest. So IIRC, Jesus gets his Levite relatives through Mary and his kingly relatives through Joseph, although both go back through King David. Jesus is both king and priest, but of the tribe of Judah.
Mat 1 gives the genealogy through Joseph.
16And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
--Mat 1
quick input - There's apparently debate as to whether Jesus had human DNA or not. One writer I read went into a long explanation of DNA (over my head) and concluded it would have been impossible ("all things are possible with God" :) for Jesus not to have had Mary's DNA. I :dontknow:. I would have figured He did, but then, it wouldn't be the first thing I was wrong about. :winkgrin:
I think that's what Dave was getting at by "surrogate". :2c:
In continuing the genealogy all the way to Adam, the progenitor of all mankind, the gospel is seen as emphasizing Jesus's universal mission.
Lastly, some, from as early as John of Damascus, view "as was supposed of Joseph" as a parenthetical note, with Luke actually calling Jesus a son of Eli—meaning, it is then suggested, that Heli (Ηλι, Heli) is the maternal grandfather of Jesus, and Luke is actually tracing the ancestry of Jesus according to the flesh through Mary.[14] Therefore per Adam Clarke (1817), John Wesley, John Kitto and others the expression "Joseph, [ ] of Heli", without the word "son" being present in the Greek, indicates that "Joseph, of Heli" is to be read "Joseph, [son-in-law] of Heli".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus
Quote from: jabcat on June 04, 2011, 05:17:43 AM
I think that's what Dave was getting at by "surrogate". :2c:
Jesus' mother was Mary. That is the genealogy in Luke that goes back to Adam. He gets his priestly connections [Levite] through his mother and his kingly connections [Judah] through his surrogate father Joseph. Although both genealogies go through King David, Jesus is considered of the tribe of Judah through his father, Joseph.
Yet, Mary's line also goes through King David. Jesus is the first priest from the kingly tribe of Judah, making him both king and priest [after the order of Melchizedek]. Melchizedek means king of righteousness.
So, in other words, although God has used the earthly lines to prove Jesus from the tribe of Judah and both king [through his father] and priest [through his mother], it then jumps into a spiritual dimension of king and priest after Melchizedek.
If He had even one ounce of the first Adam's blood coursing through His veins, then He Himself NEEDED A SAVIOUR.
Jesus came as the Head of an entirely new creation. In fact He Himself WAS A NEW CREATURE, different from any that had ever been. I want to make it very plain that Jesus was in no way derived from the First Adam, either by flesh or by blood.
Hear now what Paul says of the Christ: "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is THE LORD FROM HEAVEN" (I Cor. 15:45-47).
Jesus was not fifty percent the first Adam and fifty percent the last Adam. He was one hundred percent the last Adam!
He was not fifty percent the first man and fifty percent the last man.
He was not fifty percent the man of earth and fifty percent the Lord from heaven.
The second man I-S (100%) THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.
To be the second man and the last Adam He could in no way contain any part of the first Adam.
To be the man from heaven He must not be a descendant of the man of the earth. He must be an entirely NEW KIND OF MAN, separate from every other creation of God, as was the first man Adam in the day when he was created.
The first Adam was truly without father, without mother, and without descent – he was not derived from the life of any other man who had ever lived. So the last Adam!
Though He was conceived IN the womb of Mary, He was not OF Mary.
He was not formed from the union of the sperm of God with the ovum of Mary.
His genes were not half from Mary and half from His heavenly Father.
"That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called THE SON OF GOD," declared the angel to Mary.
Mary was merely a surrogate mother.
Jesus was as truly man, as truly flesh, as was the first man, but He was also as truly a UNIQUE CREATION OF GOD as was the first man in Eden.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes37.htm
I don't see any reason to believe Mary was a surrogate mother.
She gives birth to a human child who is the Word made flesh.
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
--Rom 8:3
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
--Phil 2
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
--Heb 2
I had never even considered this before a couple of months ago, but those are very compelling thoughts from our Brother Eby, Dave.
The Shepherd leads to where He is feeding His sheep.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 05:51:32 AM
The Shepherd leads to where He is feeding His sheep.
:bigGrin:
what do you think about that info from Bro. Eby, Mol?
Quote from: jabcat on June 04, 2011, 05:51:50 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 05:51:32 AM
The Shepherd leads to where He is feeding His sheep.
:bigGrin:
what do you think about that info from Bro. Eby, Mol?
I haven't read the whole article but based on the post, I think he's wrong.
Jesus' favorite title for himself is son of Adam.
He was created of the dust of Mary's womb.
QuoteHear now what Paul says of the Christ: "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
He is made a quickening spirit at his resurrection. As will we.
He raised Lazarus.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 06:09:41 AM
He raised Lazarus.
Elijah raised a boy from the dead.
That's not the definition of a quickening spirit, imo.
Being able to give the Holy Spirit to another is a quickening spirit.
John 10:28; I give them the Life of the Ages, and they shall never, never perish, nor shall any one wrest them from my hand.
Life of the Ages = Zoe
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 06:18:59 AM
John 10:28; I give them the Life of the Ages, and they shall never, never perish, nor shall any one wrest them from my hand.
Life of the Ages = Zoe
Yes, of course, and he does that doesn't he?
Whoever believes in him will never die.
I'm not arguing with this.
But, if he had never resurrected, I would argue with it.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 05:36:33 AM
If He had even one ounce of the first Adam's blood coursing through His veins, then He Himself NEEDED A SAVIOUR.
Jesus came as the Head of an entirely new creation. In fact He Himself WAS A NEW CREATURE, different from any that had ever been. I want to make it very plain that Jesus was in no way derived from the First Adam, either by flesh or by blood.
Hear now what Paul says of the Christ: "The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is THE LORD FROM HEAVEN" (I Cor. 15:45-47).
Jesus was not fifty percent the first Adam and fifty percent the last Adam. He was one hundred percent the last Adam!
He was not fifty percent the first man and fifty percent the last man.
He was not fifty percent the man of earth and fifty percent the Lord from heaven.
The second man I-S (100%) THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.
To be the second man and the last Adam He could in no way contain any part of the first Adam.
To be the man from heaven He must not be a descendant of the man of the earth. He must be an entirely NEW KIND OF MAN, separate from every other creation of God, as was the first man Adam in the day when he was created.
The first Adam was truly without father, without mother, and without descent – he was not derived from the life of any other man who had ever lived. So the last Adam!
Though He was conceived IN the womb of Mary, He was not OF Mary.
He was not formed from the union of the sperm of God with the ovum of Mary.
His genes were not half from Mary and half from His heavenly Father.
"That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called THE SON OF GOD," declared the angel to Mary.
Mary was merely a surrogate mother.
Jesus was as truly man, as truly flesh, as was the first man, but He was also as truly a UNIQUE CREATION OF GOD as was the first man in Eden.
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Echoes/echoes37.htm
If He had even one ounce of the first Adam's blood coursing through His veins, then He Himself NEEDED A SAVIOUR. :thumbsup:
Debate as you will, the blood of the child comes from the FATHER, yes there is the DNA of both mother and father, but the BLOOD is from the Father. Now, just who is, was, and will be the Father of the Saviour of the World(kosmos, that arranged place) WW is in a true sense correct when he states "surrogate" which it must be. When will man see that JESUS the Christ is the very essence of hands of the potter working with each soul today. All that we, as humans see is Eve, the mother of all living, and without His understanding, given to us, we........ I may never see what Jesus offered and said in John 10:10 "The thief is not coming except that he should be stealing and sacrificing and destroying. I came that they may have
life eonian, and have it superabundantly."This life that is spoken of here has nothing to do with Eve's respirations of breath, life, breathing. We have put to much stock in this "stage" as the poet said, like this is real and that it will continue after we, you and I are gone. Has anyone heard of a new Jerusalem? I am not trying to be synical, but there is in that new Jerusalem a flake of HOPE, which is more than there is in your breathing breath, you soul you.
Quote from: jabcat on June 04, 2011, 05:17:43 AM
I think that's what Dave was getting at by "surrogate". :2c:
HS took the role of Joseph. So I can agree Joseph DNA is not part of Jesus.
But 'disconnecting' Jesus from Mary means He was not even a Jew because a Jew is born form a Jewish mother.
OK, good point. (I keep going back and forth on this :duck:)
You guys figure this out and let me know, will ya? :)
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2011, 06:58:24 AMDebate as you will, the blood of the child comes from the FATHER, yes there is the DNA of both mother and father,
Agreed.
Quotebut the BLOOD is from the Father.
And your proof is? You think DNA has no connection whatsoever with blood?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 10:53:37 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Tempted does not mean fallibility.
It does.
QuoteHe did not resist sin;
He did.
QuoteHe met it head-on with the Word of God.
True.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 07:52:59 AM
Quote from: jabcat on June 04, 2011, 05:17:43 AM
I think that's what Dave was getting at by "surrogate". :2c:
HS took the role of Joseph. So I can agree Joseph DNA is not part of Jesus.
But 'disconnecting' Jesus from Mary means He was not even a Jew because a Jew is born form a Jewish mother.
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. This is according to all that you asked of the Lord your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die." And the Lord said to me, "They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him."
--Deuteronomy 18:15-19
"...feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28).
YLTJames 1
13 Let no one say, being tempted--`From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
==> God is NOT tempted
YLTHebrews 2
18 for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
==> Jesus IS tempted
YLTHebrews 4
15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
==> Jesus IS tempted. Not just in one thing but in everything. Like other (wo)men.
According to Thayer the Greek for tempted has 2 readings (difference in the manuscripts)
πειράζω
peirazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to try whether a thing can be done
1a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
2a) in a good sense
2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
2c) to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
2c1) to solicit to sin, to tempt
2c1a) of the temptations of the devil
2d) after the OT usage
2d1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
2d2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
2d3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God's justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3984
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822
πειράω
peiraō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make a trial of, to attempt
1a) taught by trial, experienced
2) to test, to make trial of one, put him to proof
2a) his mind, sentiments, temper
2b) in particular, to attempt to induce one to commit some (especially carnal) crime
2c) tempted to sin
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3984
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822
πεῖρα
peira
Thayer Definition:
1) a trial, experience, attempt
2) to attempt a thing, to make trial of a thing or of a person
3) to have a trial of a thing
4) to experience, learn to know by experience
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from the base of G4008 (through the idea of piercing)
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822
I'm aware some say He was indeed tempted but was totally immume to it. He didn't just resist it, it didn't touch Him at all. Just like God.
But the Bible is clear: God can not be tempted but Jesus was tempted in every human aspect.
So imo there must a difference between the not tempting of father and the tempting of Son.
My view is that the greatness of Jesus was not that He was immume to wrong desires; His greatnes was that in whole His life He never gave in to those desires while every other person gives in to those desires on (almost) daily basis.
Thayers defenition if infirmities seems to agree with that.
ἀσθένεια
astheneia
Thayer Definition:
1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
1a) of the body
1a1) its native weakness and frailty
1a2) feebleness of health or sickness
1b) of the soul
1b1) want of strength and capacity requisite
1b1a) to understand a thing
1b1b) to do things great and glorious
1b1c) to restrain corrupt desires
1b1d) to bear trials and troubles
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G772
Citing in TDNT: 1:490, 83
Good stuff wings. You made a good point that God cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted in every way. That way he gets to experience trials as we go through, so that he can help us better, being made perfect, the captain of our salvation.
Some points I'd like to make.
I see that a good argument has been made that Jesus could not be born of human blood because it is sin stained.
What I would say, is that what about the premise that, our human blood is stained, but yet not entirely corrupted.
So through Mary's blood, God was able to filter out the contamination and add the influence of the Holy Spirit.
The scriptures say that through Abrahams "seed" all the kindreds of the Earth will be blessed.
So in some sense, there has to be Abraham's seed part of this process - unless one has a compelling argument that Abrahams seed is not Jesus Christ but someone else.
:cloud9: My :2c: That He was tempted as we were was plainly shown in the wilderness experience with what He was tempted with. The root of those tempations was, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. The way out of the garden is the way (once overcome) back in.
But being in the garden is not the end either, as He showed when He prayed in the garden, "not my will, but Your will be done." Nor is the garden the end of our experience, as He could have avoided the cross when they told Him to get himself down. The end is when He said, "It is finished", and willingly gave up His life, perfecting love. No greater love has any man than this.
I also believe that in His flesh, was no good thing, which is why He said, why callest me good, there is none good but the Father, and that He overcame it BEFORE He ever walked it out for the purpose of having it witnessed and recorded for our benefit. Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 08:03:33 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 10:53:37 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Tempted does not mean fallibility.
It does.
QuoteHe did not resist sin;
He did.
QuoteHe met it head-on with the Word of God.
True.
Tempted does not mean fallibility. Period.
tempt
verb \ˈtem(p)t\
Definition of TEMPT
transitive verb
1: to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain
en·tice/enˈtīs/
Verb: Attract offering pleasure or advantage.
He never took the bait. Period.
Tempted does not mean fallibility. Period.
He did not resist sin;
He met it head-on with the Word of God.
I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin
--Heb 4:15
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 05:04:37 PM
He did not resist sin;
He met it head-on with the Word of God.
:thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:03:31 PM
I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin
--Heb 4:15
No, He could not have sinned. He came to do the Fathers Will. He and the Father are One.
Temptation comes from the senses.
Sin never entered His mind.
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Christ said that sin is not defined by just a physical act; if we even allow such a thought to our mind we have sinned.
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:03:31 PM
I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin
--Heb 4:15
I, myself can not even reason that," Jesus didn't sin but
he could have sinned." I believe it would be clearer to say that Jesus did not sin, Jesus could not sin. It was the Fathers Will for every step and decision that Jesus made.
Joh 5:30 `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous,
because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.Joh 8:28 Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that
I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking."
:HeartThrob:
Amen.
He is — God with us.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2011, 06:29:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:03:31 PM
I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin
--Heb 4:15
I, myself can not even reason that," Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned." I believe it would be clearer to say that Jesus did not sin, Jesus could not sin. It was the Fathers Will for every step and decision that Jesus made.
Joh 5:30 `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
Joh 8:28 Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothing, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking."
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?
If he could not sin, then how does he condemn sin in the flesh?
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; --Heb 2
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son
in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
--Rom 8
For this reason he had to be made
like his brothers in every way in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
--Heb 2
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 06:32:19 PM
:HeartThrob:
Amen.
He is — God with us.
Agree, but walking on the earth in the body of a flesh and blood man.
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 04, 2011, 06:29:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:03:31 PM
I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin
--Heb 4:15
I, myself can not even reason that," Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned." I believe it would be clearer to say that Jesus did not sin, Jesus could not sin. It was the Fathers Will for every step and decision that Jesus made.
Joh 5:30 `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.
Joh 8:28 Jesus, then, said to them again that "Whenever you should be exalting the Son of Mankind, then you will know that I am, and from Myself I am doing nothinhttp://www.tentmaker.org/forum/Themes/babylon/images/bbc/bold.gifg, but, according as My Father teaches Me, these things I am speaking."
What about these words in Bold
but, according as My Father
teaches Me, these things I am speaking
And
because
I seek not my own will, but the
will of the Father who sent me.
I respect your point of view and after all Jesus did not Sin, but still the scriptures we have discussed show that Jesus was tempted and he said to the disciples,
Mathew 26
52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Quote53Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Imagine the temptation in that! lol
I would have failed that test myself.
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:59:38 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 06:32:19 PM
:HeartThrob:
Amen.
He is — God with us.
Agree, but walking on the earth in the body of a flesh and blood man.
Agree, but not Adam's flesh and blood.
Molly, "If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?"
If he could not sin, then how does he condemn sin in the flesh?"
The point is He came in the "likeness" and how does He condemn, He came in the likeness of sinful man and He did not sin, that condemned sin the the flesh.
Beloved Servant "Amen.
He is — God with us.
I am kinda up in the air about this, my understanding that is. :HeartThrob:
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
So why come as a baby?
why not come as an adult?
Quote from: thinktank on June 04, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
So why come as a baby?
why not come as an adult?
Hi all must come the same way Jesus Christ being the sign , born again of God , Jesus being the first begotten and the first born of the dead
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2011, 09:55:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 04, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
So why come as a baby?
why not come as an adult?
Hi all must come the same way Jesus Christ being the sign , born again of God , Jesus being the first begotten and the first born of the dead
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you :HeartThrob:
I'm not sure what you mean.
If human blood was not required, then why come as a human baby. Jesus could have come from heaven as an adult
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 05:02:06 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 08:03:33 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 10:53:37 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Tempted does not mean fallibility.
It does.
QuoteHe did not resist sin;
He did.
QuoteHe met it head-on with the Word of God.
True.
Tempted does not mean fallibility. Period.
tempt
verb \ˈtem(p)t\
Definition of TEMPT
transitive verb
1: to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain
en·tice/enˈtīs/
Verb: Attract offering pleasure or advantage.
He never took the bait. Period.
Tempted does not mean fallibility. Period.
Read reply #159
Answer that.
Until then; He was tempted a lot!
Period
Quote from: thinktank on June 04, 2011, 09:59:44 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2011, 09:55:27 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 04, 2011, 08:45:13 PM
So why come as a baby?
why not come as an adult?
Hi all must come the same way Jesus Christ being the sign , born again of God , Jesus being the first begotten and the first born of the dead
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you :HeartThrob:
I'm not sure what you mean.
If human blood was not required, then why come as a human baby. Jesus could have come from heaven as an adult
I am sorry about that :mblush:, hope to clarify .. its the Spirit of God coming in flesh ,
Jesus being the first begotten Son , this was the new thing God prophecied about in the OLD testament all the time :HeartThrob:
the old testament /witness speaks of the Son and the new testament / witness Speaks of the Father
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 06:28:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:03:31 PM
I think it would be clearer to say that Jesus didn't sin but he could have sinned.
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin
--Heb 4:15
No, He could not have sinned.
He could.
QuoteHe came to do the Fathers Will.
Yes. But that fact doesn't exclude He could not sin.
QuoteHe and the Father are One.
An unproven assumption we are not allowed to discuss.
QuoteTemptation comes from the senses
Jesus had senses. He was a man of flesh and blood.
QuoteSin never entered His mind.
True.
Quote"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Christ said that sin is not defined by just a physical act; if we even allow such a thought to our mind we have sinned.
So Jesus didn't overcome sin at all.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:10:01 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 04, 2011, 05:02:06 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 08:03:33 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 02, 2011, 10:53:37 PM
Quote from: thinktank on June 02, 2011, 07:26:27 PM
Sounds like he had to be perfected, by resisting sin
Tempted does not mean fallibility.
It does.
QuoteHe did not resist sin;
He did.
QuoteHe met it head-on with the Word of God.
True.
Tempted does not mean fallibility. Period.
tempt
verb \ˈtem(p)t\
Definition of TEMPT
transitive verb
1: to entice to do wrong by promise of pleasure or gain
en·tice/enˈtīs/
Verb: Attract offering pleasure or advantage.
He never took the bait. Period.
Tempted does not mean fallibility. Period.
Read reply #159
Answer that.
Until then; He was tempted a lot!
Period
Just maybe his flesh was weak and tempted , but the Spirit of God was stronger in Him to resist temptation , it cannot be tempted , thats our way of eacape also :HeartThrob: as we learn this from Jesus Himself
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?
Then the likeness was only skindeep.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:21:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?
Then the likeness was only skindeep.
:thumbsup: in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH , but Gods Spirit was in full operation
Jhn 3:34 For
he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him]. NLT John 3
33 Anyone who accepts his testimony can affirm that God is true.
34 For he is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit.
35 The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. 36 And anyone who believes in God's Son has eternal life. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2011, 10:18:46 PMJust maybe his flesh was weak and tempted ,
Yes it was tempted in all things.
YLTHebrews 415 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but one
tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
Quotebut the Spirit of God was stronger in Him to resist temptation ,
True.
Quoteit cannot be tempted , thats our way of eacape also :HeartThrob: as we learn this from Jesus Himself
Being tempted means you are given a choice. Then you can decide if you take that choice yes or no. People often make the wrong choice. Jesus always made the right choice.
And that makes a huge difference.
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:21:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?
Then the likeness was only skindeep.
:thumbsup: in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH , but Gods Spirit was in full operation
I think you mean :thumbdown: RoseY :winkgrin:
It's always said the flesh is sinful but obviously that's not entirely correct. It's your mind that makes the choices not your flesh. And your mind is (part of) your personality.
That's much more than skindeep for me.
It's the 5 senses that present those choices. There is the genesis of sin.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:21:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?
Then the likeness was only skindeep.
:thumbsup: in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH , but Gods Spirit was in full operation
I think you mean :thumbdown: RoseY :winkgrin:
It's always said the flesh is sinful but obviously that's not entirely correct. It's your mind that makes the choices not your flesh. And your mind is (part of) your personality.
That's much more than skindeep for me.
you dont think sin dwells in the flesh / aka carnal mind than ? im confused with your post WW :icon_flower:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:21:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?
Then the likeness was only skindeep.
:thumbsup: in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH , but Gods Spirit was in full operation
I think you mean :thumbdown: RoseY :winkgrin:
It's always said the flesh is sinful but obviously that's not entirely correct. It's your mind that makes the choices not your flesh. And your mind is (part of) your personality.
That's much more than skindeep for me.
Right. Walking around in the flesh is not sinful, but the flesh is tempted to lust etc
James
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15
Then when
lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
So man is tempted, he gets hooked in, and THen lust is conceived, because he was drawn into Sin, either by choice or weakness.
But Jesus not only chose the Fathers will always or to put it another way, chose the way of righteousness But He also resisted temptation, with symptoms such as sweating blood in the garden.
When a Christian is tempted to do evil, they according to scripture must take every thought captive with the word of God, just like Jesus did.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on June 05, 2011, 01:18:20 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 04, 2011, 10:27:57 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 10:21:30 PM
Quote from: Molly on June 04, 2011, 06:48:29 PM
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?
Then the likeness was only skindeep.
:thumbsup: in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH , but Gods Spirit was in full operation
I think you mean :thumbdown: RoseY :winkgrin:
It's always said the flesh is sinful but obviously that's not entirely correct. It's your mind that makes the choices not your flesh. And your mind is (part of) your personality.
That's much more than skindeep for me.
Right. Walking around in the flesh is not sinful, but the flesh is tempted to lust etc
James
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
So man is tempted, he gets hooked in, and THen lust is conceived, because he was drawn into Sin, either by choice or weakness.
But Jesus not only chose the Fathers will always or to put it another way, chose the way of righteousness But He also resisted temptation, with symptoms such as sweating blood in the garden.
When a Christian is tempted to do evil, they according to scripture must take every thought captive with the word of God, just like Jesus did.
:2c:
wow you two just brought it home to roost for me !! awesome !! could not agree more with this !
It also makes this scripture that has perplexed me for years '' ring true '' now!! makes perfect sense :thumbsup: :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: we do have to follow Jesus in every example , that same strait and narrow gate/ way ..also the sweating of blood,,,the shedding of our carnal minds putting it to death .
For consider him that endured
such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hbr 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. :HeartThrob: your a blessing :thumbsup:
:cloud9: You know I never thought about that before, but the blood came out of His face, presumably, and face means nature, Adam was ruddy or red in the face. At the point of totally surrendering to the cross, the Adamic likeness was no more? Hmmm.....
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 01:43:29 AM
:cloud9: You know I never thought about that before, but the blood came out of His face, presumably, and face means nature, Adam was ruddy or red in the face. At the point of totally surrendering to the cross, the Adamic likeness was no more? Hmmm.....
:icon_flower: :HeartThrob: 2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not;
but though our outward man perish,
yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
we see Jesus and follow after Him , the same way ,,,''our perfect example'' First / preeminence , God showing us through Christ :HeartThrob:
Col 1:18 And
he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
So are we in agreement that he could have sinned but he did not?
Or not?
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
If he could not sin, then what is the point to come in the likeness of sinful man?[/quote]Then the likeness was only skindeep.
[/quote] :thumbsup: in the LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH , but Gods Spirit was in full operation[/quote]I think you mean :thumbdown: RoseY :winkgrin:
It's always said the flesh is sinful but obviously that's not entirely correct. It's your mind that makes the choices not your flesh. And your mind is (part of) your personality.
That's much more than skindeep for me.
[/quote]
Quote
Right. Walking around in the flesh is not sinful, but the flesh is tempted to lust etc
James
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
So man is tempted, he gets hooked in, and THen lust is conceived, because he was drawn into Sin, either by choice or weakness.
But Jesus not only chose the Fathers will always or to put it another way, chose the way of righteousness But He also resisted temptation, with symptoms such as sweating blood in the garden.
When a Christian is tempted to do evil, they according to scripture must take every thought captive with the word of God, just like Jesus did.
:2c:
wow you two just brought it home to roost for me !! awesome !! could not agree more with this !
It also makes this scripture that has perplexed me for years " ring true " now!! makes perfect sense :thumbsup: :icon_flower: :HeartThrob: we do have to follow Jesus in every example , that same strait and narrow gate/ way ..also the sweating of blood,,,the shedding of our carnal minds putting it to death .
For consider him that endured
such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hbr 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. :HeartThrob: your a blessing :thumbsup:
[/quote] [/quote]
Fantastic I'm so glad you have been blessed :HeartThrob:
It was no mere coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.
:cloud9: @ Molly.....I believe He could have, else what would be the point of Him being tempted in all ways as us? I think the deification of the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) is a left-over from the RCC's influence.
If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then it puts Him in an unapproachable position whereby normal men cannot ever hope to attain to anything beyond the realm of the flesh (in life), and keeps them in a sinner mentality instead of a joint heir, son of God, mentality. Which is obviously very useful to the coffers of men, because it keeps them from ever coming into the authority of maturity in Christ, and therefore more easily managed.
The other thief doctrine is one where we must die to attain our inheritance, ie. there's no hope in this life, but when we die......
Both, IMO, miss the mark and keep men from pressing in. Basically, it's the 2 thieves on the cross. One glorifies the past, the other glorifies the future; both keep our eyes off what He is doing IN US, NOW. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?
Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
I see it that Father had complete confidence in His Son that he would overcome.
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 02:12:32 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?
Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?
I beg your pardon?
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 02:10:28 AM
:cloud9: @ Molly.....I believe He could have, else what would be the point of Him being tempted in all ways as us? I think the deification of the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) is a left-over from the RCC's influence.
If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then it puts Him in an unapproachable position whereby normal men cannot ever hope to attain to anything beyond the realm of the flesh (in life), and keeps them in a sinner mentality instead of a joint heir, son of God, mentality. Which is obviously very useful to the coffers of men, because it keeps them from ever coming into the authority of maturity in Christ, and therefore more easily managed.
The other thief doctrine is one where we must die to attain our inheritance, ie. there's no hope in this life, but when we die......
Both, IMO, miss the mark and keep men from pressing in. Basically, it's the 2 thieves on the cross. One glorifies the past, the other glorifies the future; both keep our eyes off what He is doing IN US, NOW. My :2c: Blessings....
wow. the two thieves on the cross. the one who says remember me [in the future], Jesus replies you will be with me TODAY in paradise.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:15:14 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 02:12:32 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?
Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?
I beg your pardon?
I'm trying to take a poll.
Cardinal, "normal men" will never be as Jesus. In Him there is a NEW CREATION.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:08:55 AM
It was no mere coincidence that Jesus fulfilled the Scriptures.
:thumbsup: Amen ! the Whole book its written of HIM ,,the Holy One / thing ! :HeartThrob:
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren
that have the testimony of Jesus:
worship God:
for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. same Spirit we also shall Know all things
same witness of Truth 1Jo 2:20 But ye have an
unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. same bringing in many sons of God into Glory !! :HeartThrob: Thanks Dave
Cardinal, If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then the transfiguration bears witness that His flesh is full of Light.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:21:09 AM
Cardinal, If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then the transfiguration bears witness that His flesh is full of Light.
The transfiguration bears witness that his flesh will be changed. That's the definition of the word.
trans·fig·u·ra·tion/ˌtransfigyəˈrāSHən/Noun
1. A complete change of form or appearance into a more beautiful or spiritual state.
Appearance is the keyword that only Faith, Hope and Love can see. It does not mean that it is not there. Hidden from the carnal mind.
They were sleeping!
:cloud9: @ Beloved.....My belief is that He overcame all things WAY BEFORE He ever went to the cross, or before His public ministry even started. I believe He went into the Holy of Holies within Himself before He ever ascended publicly. What He walked out publicly was an outward DISPLAY of what had already happened inwardly.
If there was not a maturing process that He had to go thru, then God is a respecter of persons, because it would have been really cruel for a, let's say, a 14 year old Jesus to walk past the blind, lame, leprous, and demoniacs, and do nothing about it, if he was capable of it.
In order to see Him as He is, you have to lay down the flesh of Him, to see the Seed. The Spirit divides asunder the flesh from the spirit, EVEN HIS FLESH. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:21:09 AM
Cardinal, If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then the transfiguration bears witness that His flesh is full of Light.
exactly
the inward man / Body of Light / knowledge of God Jesus was concieved of Holy Ghost , HS being Father and Wisdom = Jesus Christ
These 3 are ONE .. Wisdom female Father male Jesus Christ offspring
making the inward man
But come in the likness of sinful flesh
Man born of woman under the LAW Mary though the linage of David on and on down to Adam
so many scriptures to back up both the natural and the Spiritual man :mshock:
inward and outward
here the Light/ Jesus Christ being the knowledge of God which is Wisdom
1Cr 2:7 But we speak the
wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained
before the world unto our glory:
2Cr 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give]
the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Wisdom proverbs 8
all of it but this part mainly
22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 "From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
24 "When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
25 "Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills I was brought forth;
26 While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Nor the first dust of the world.
27 "When He established the heavens, I was there,
When He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29 When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
30 Then I was beside Him, as a master workman;
And I was daily His delight,
[l]Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in the world, His earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.......... :HeartThrob:
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 01:43:29 AM
:cloud9: You know I never thought about that before, but the blood came out of His face, presumably, and face means nature, Adam was ruddy or red in the face. At the point of totally surrendering to the cross, the Adamic likeness was no more? Hmmm.....
That could be, but consider this:
There is a (rare) medical condition that makes someone sweating blood.
It also could be just a little hint on the timing of His death. Passover is at full moon. Sometimes the moonlight is red and when that reflects on sweat it looks like blood. Many translation use "as if" or similar. Just a small "warning" not to base a conclusion on (possibly) badly translated verse.
(http://images.sciencedaily.com/2008/02/080211133105.jpg)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080211133105.htm
44 and, coming to be in an agony, more intensely, was he praying; and his perspiration became, as if great drops of blood, falling upon the ground.]
44 And @ being @ in @ an agony @ he prayed @ more earnestly @: and @ his @ sweat @ was @ as it were @ great drops @ of blood @ falling down @ to @ the ground @.
44 and having been in agony, he was more earnestly praying, and his sweat became, as it were, great drops of blood falling upon the ground.
44 And having become in agony he prayed more intensely, and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
44 And being in great trouble of soul, the force of his prayer became stronger, and great drops, like blood, came from him, falling to the earth.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And being in agony, He prayed more fervently. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down onto the ground.
44 and so his sweat became like drops of blood, running down to the ground.
44 And being in conflict he prayed more intently. And his sweat became as great drops of blood, falling down upon the earth.
44 And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.
44 And being in an agony he prays more intently: and his sweat becomes as great clots of blood descending on the earth.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly intently : and his sweat was became as it were great drops clots of blood falling down to descending upon the ground earth .
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat became as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly; and he sweat as at were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
44 And in his anguish he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.]
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly. And his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.
44 possible spurious text He was in agony and earnestly prayed. His sweat became, as it were great drops of blood falling down upon the ground.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.
44 And being in a violent struggle, he prayed more intently: and his sweat was as clots of blood coming down upon the earth.
44 Being in agony he prayed more earnestly. His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down on the ground.
44 And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 02:12:32 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?
Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?
Yes.
About daily I read flesh is sinful and Jesus came in the flesh. But just because it's about Jesus flesh isn't sinful anymore.
Jesus could have sinned. Jesus could have called legions of angels to destroy all who tried to oppose/hurt Him.
Just as Jesus walked to the garden after the last supper He could have walked out of town. Escape crucifixion.
The whole point is that He did not (give in to those temptations).
Do you really think Jesus was happy to be nailed to the cross? I can understand He was happy when looking back at His perfect life. I can understand He was happy even greater glory would start in only a few days (resurrection). The fact is He asked to be spared of the pain of the cross.
YLTMatthew 2639 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
As the above verse shows even at that point Jesus was tempted. He considered the possibilty to be not crucified. But as always He made the right choice.
That's the story of Jesus. Tempted in every way, but always made the correct choices as the OT predicted.
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 02:15:50 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 02:10:28 AM
:cloud9: @ Molly.....I believe He could have, else what would be the point of Him being tempted in all ways as us? I think the deification of the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) is a left-over from the RCC's influence.
If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then it puts Him in an unapproachable position whereby normal men cannot ever hope to attain to anything beyond the realm of the flesh (in life), and keeps them in a sinner mentality instead of a joint heir, son of God, mentality. Which is obviously very useful to the coffers of men, because it keeps them from ever coming into the authority of maturity in Christ, and therefore more easily managed.
The other thief doctrine is one where we must die to attain our inheritance, ie. there's no hope in this life, but when we die......
Both, IMO, miss the mark and keep men from pressing in. Basically, it's the 2 thieves on the cross. One glorifies the past, the other glorifies the future; both keep our eyes off what He is doing IN US, NOW. My :2c: Blessings....
wow. the two thieves on the cross. the one who says remember me [in the future], Jesus replies you will be with me TODAY in paradise.
He didn't say that. You just made a doctrinal translation :btongue: Read this. (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic_support/soul_sleep_4791.msg49918.html#msg49918)
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 05, 2011, 08:47:33 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 02:12:32 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
Ok I know how you feel, how about everyone else?
Did Jesus have the potential to sin or not?
Yes.
About daily I read flesh is sinful and Jesus came in the flesh. But just because it's about Jesus flesh isn't sinful anymore.
Jesus could have sinned. Jesus could have called legions of angels to destroy all who tried to oppose/hurt Him.
Just as Jesus walked to the garden after the last supper He could have walked out of town. Escape crucifixion.
The whole point is that He did not (give in to those temptations).
Do you really think Jesus was happy to be nailed to the cross? I can understand He was happy when looking back at His perfect life. I can understand He was happy even greater glory would start in only a few days (resurrection). The fact is He asked to be spared of the pain of the cross.
YLTMatthew 26
39 And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, `My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
As the above verse shows even at that point Jesus was tempted. He considered the possibilty to be not crucified. But as always He made the right choice.
That's the story of Jesus. Tempted in every way, but always made the correct choices as the OT predicted.
Jesus told Pilot when Pilot threatened Jesus with death , man I have the power to kill you
Jesus replies , you would have no power at all if it were not given to you from Above ...
I see the outward works of men and the demonic , tempting the Lord , more so rhan anything when reading scriptures
Jesus was sent to destroy the works of the devil / hate /murder
Jesus says on the Cross forgive them Father for they know not what they do
seems this kind of love shown over your enemies /hate you , is the best example Jesus taught us to love your enemies , He Lived it and also died showing death has no power anylonger over Him or those in Him
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
so his mortal flesh was destroyed though evil works , but His glorious Body / flesh is now in complete control , showing us also how its done .. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 05, 2011, 09:02:39 AM
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 02:15:50 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on June 05, 2011, 02:10:28 AM
:cloud9: @ Molly.....I believe He could have, else what would be the point of Him being tempted in all ways as us? I think the deification of the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) is a left-over from the RCC's influence.
If you make the flesh of Him (pre-resurrection) holy, then it puts Him in an unapproachable position whereby normal men cannot ever hope to attain to anything beyond the realm of the flesh (in life), and keeps them in a sinner mentality instead of a joint heir, son of God, mentality. Which is obviously very useful to the coffers of men, because it keeps them from ever coming into the authority of maturity in Christ, and therefore more easily managed.
The other thief doctrine is one where we must die to attain our inheritance, ie. there's no hope in this life, but when we die......
Both, IMO, miss the mark and keep men from pressing in. Basically, it's the 2 thieves on the cross. One glorifies the past, the other glorifies the future; both keep our eyes off what He is doing IN US, NOW. My :2c: Blessings....
wow. the two thieves on the cross. the one who says remember me [in the future], Jesus replies you will be with me TODAY in paradise.
He didn't say that. You just made a doctrinal translation :btongue: Read this. (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic_support/soul_sleep_4791.msg49918.html#msg49918)
:cloud9: Not sure what your point is, WW..... :dontknow:
Did you click the link?
The Greek has no commas.
Placing the comma at different places gives a different meaning to the verse.
On what basis we place the comma at a certain spot?
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 05, 2011, 10:29:52 PM
Did you click the link?
The Greek has no commas.
Placing the comma at different places gives a different meaning to the verse.
On what basis we place the comma at a certain spot?
Yes I made a doctrinal translation. That comma belongs to me and the HS.
Read THIS, ww!!! :happygrin:
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 10:50:39 PM
Yes I made a doctrinal translation. That comma belongs to me and the HS.
I get the point
. :pointlaugh:
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 05, 2011, 10:29:52 PM
Did you click the link?
The Greek has no commas.
Placing the comma at different places gives a different meaning to the verse.
On what basis we place the comma at a certain spot?
:cloud9: Yes I did, but I didn't see what you were,,,,,,,talking about. :laughing7:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 05, 2011, 02:04:58 AM
Not!
The Father did not write the Old Testament "just in case" Jesus agreed to it.
Not! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
So are we in agreement that he could have sinned but he did not?
Or not?
Yes Jesus could have sinned, to beleive otherwise makes every trial and test He went throught nothing but a sham.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 04, 2011, 11:35:23 AM
YLTJames 1
13 Let no one say, being tempted--`From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one,
==> God is NOT tempted
YLTHebrews 2
18 for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
==> Jesus IS tempted
YLTHebrews 4
15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but one tempted in all things in like manner--apart from sin;
==> Jesus IS tempted. Not just in one thing but in everything. Like other (wo)men.
According to Thayer the Greek for tempted has 2 readings (difference in the manuscripts)
πειράζω
peirazō
Thayer Definition:
1) to try whether a thing can be done
1a) to attempt, endeavour
2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
2a) in a good sense
2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
2c) to try or test one's faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
2c1) to solicit to sin, to tempt
2c1a) of the temptations of the devil
2d) after the OT usage
2d1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
2d2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
2d3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God's justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3984
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822
πειράω
peiraō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make a trial of, to attempt
1a) taught by trial, experienced
2) to test, to make trial of one, put him to proof
2a) his mind, sentiments, temper
2b) in particular, to attempt to induce one to commit some (especially carnal) crime
2c) tempted to sin
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G3984
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822
πεῖρα
peira
Thayer Definition:
1) a trial, experience, attempt
2) to attempt a thing, to make trial of a thing or of a person
3) to have a trial of a thing
4) to experience, learn to know by experience
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from the base of G4008 (through the idea of piercing)
Citing in TDNT: 6:23, 822
I'm aware some say He was indeed tempted but was totally immume to it. He didn't just resist it, it didn't touch Him at all. Just like God.
But the Bible is clear: God can not be tempted but Jesus was tempted in every human aspect.
So imo there must a difference between the not tempting of father and the tempting of Son.
My view is that the greatness of Jesus was not that He was immume to wrong desires; His greatnes was that in whole His life He never gave in to those desires while every other person gives in to those desires on (almost) daily basis.
Thayers defenition if infirmities seems to agree with that.
ἀσθένεια
astheneia
Thayer Definition:
1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity
1a) of the body
1a1) its native weakness and frailty
1a2) feebleness of health or sickness
1b) of the soul
1b1) want of strength and capacity requisite
1b1a) to understand a thing
1b1b) to do things great and glorious
1b1c) to restrain corrupt desires
1b1d) to bear trials and troubles
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from G772
Citing in TDNT: 1:490, 83
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on June 05, 2011, 01:58:41 AM
So are we in agreement that he could have sinned but he did not?
Or not?
IMO, although it
could be true Jesus could have sinned, I don't believe it absolutely 100% follows. To say so may be an assumption. Wouldnt another possibility be [Heb 4:15] that He
could have been tempted so as to be able to more fully identify and empathize with our own struggles - whether He Himself could have fallen or not? Personally, I doubt He could have, and I'd have to see scriptural facts. (although I guess [an unsupported?] argument could be made that unless He could fall, would the temptation have the same significance it carries for us?). Right now, for mine, as Beloved Servant said earlier, He came to do the will of His Father - my own
opinion is :laughing7:, I doubt it was the will of the Father for Jesus to sin.
Although it appears to me the scripture is a great UR verse ("will not lose any the Father has given me"), it still says He came to do God's will; "because I have come down out of the heaven, not that I may do my will, but the will of Him who sent me." Jn. 6:48
I'm sure there are other scrips that can be used as "proof texts", one way or another...seems the Q is, what's the concensus/reconciliation of the scriptures, which is very hard to reach most times. :2c:
Some good scrips, thoughts, and opinions here; this writer sort of comes down somewhere "in the middle", by basically saying He could have, but that He wouldn't because He didn't have the sin nature so the temptations could not "penetrate" Him.
Could Jesus Christ have sinned?
The Bible clearly states that Jesus Christ did not sin. But during His physical life as a man on earth, could He have sinned?
Answer:
Some infer that Jesus could have sinned from Hebrews:4:15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.: "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." However, the English word "tempted" can be misleading, as it might give the impression that a desire, to some degree, to sin was resisted. The Greek for "tempted," peirazo, can be defined as "to try whether a thing can be done" (Enhanced Strong's Lexicon). The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible renders the following, "...One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin."
... "tempted" might give the impression of Satan having a measure of success, though the action didn't occur.
"God cannot be tempted [peirazo] by evil" (James:1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:). Jesus was tested but lustful desires were never stirred in His mind and heart, since "each one is tempted [peirazo] when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." Satan is the "tempter" in that his motive is to cause us to sin. But God's motive is for us to make the right choice: "...the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test [peirazo] those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation:3:10).
Being human, theoretically Jesus could have chosen to sin. However, He was never tempted to sin, because He had the mind of God that cannot be tempted by sin. However, He did face the trials and tests common to mankind. Romans:8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: says of Christ, "He condemned sin in the flesh." ... Paul goes on to tell us that we have the power to resist sin through the indwelling of the Spirit of God.
Spirit."
Christ's life in the flesh offers an example of how to live by the laws of God. He also made possible grace and forgiveness for sin, but not a do-it-yourself method for achieving a sinless life. The Bible clearly states that no human being has led a sinless life as Jesus did (1 John:1:7-8[7]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[8]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.). The Holy Spirit does indeed offer the nature of God to be imparted, to provide spiritual understanding and motivation to obey God (Hebrews:8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:; 10:16); but we are all still human and still sin out of ignorance and weakness.
Christ came to model the way of life His followers have to live. Not only is Christ our Savior, but He is also our Brother. Far more important than whether or not He could have sinned is the fact that He never did sin. Rather, He lived a sin-free life as an example for us to follow, and died to pay the price for our sins. ucg.org
Quote from: jabcat on June 07, 2011, 12:46:48 AM
Some good scrips, thoughts, and opinions here; this writer sort of comes down somewhere "in the middle", by basically saying He could have, but that He wouldn't because He didn't have the sin nature so the temptations could not "penetrate" Him.
Could Jesus Christ have sinned?
The Bible clearly states that Jesus Christ did not sin. But during His physical life as a man on earth, could He have sinned?
Answer:
Some infer that Jesus could have sinned from Hebrews:4:15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.: "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." However, the English word "tempted" can be misleading, as it might give the impression that a desire, to some degree, to sin was resisted. The Greek for "tempted," peirazo, can be defined as "to try whether a thing can be done" (Enhanced Strong's Lexicon). The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible renders the following, "...One having been tried in all respects according to our likeness, apart from sin."
... "tempted" might give the impression of Satan having a measure of success, though the action didn't occur.
"God cannot be tempted [peirazo] by evil" (James:1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:). Jesus was tested but lustful desires were never stirred in His mind and heart, since "each one is tempted [peirazo] when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." Satan is the "tempter" in that his motive is to cause us to sin. But God's motive is for us to make the right choice: "...the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test [peirazo] those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation:3:10).
Being human, theoretically Jesus could have chosen to sin. However, He was never tempted to sin, because He had the mind of God that cannot be tempted by sin. However, He did face the trials and tests common to mankind. Romans:8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: says of Christ, "He condemned sin in the flesh." ... Paul goes on to tell us that we have the power to resist sin through the indwelling of the Spirit of God.
Spirit."
Christ's life in the flesh offers an example of how to live by the laws of God. He also made possible grace and forgiveness for sin, but not a do-it-yourself method for achieving a sinless life. The Bible clearly states that no human being has led a sinless life as Jesus did (1 John:1:7-8[7]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[8]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.). The Holy Spirit does indeed offer the nature of God to be imparted, to provide spiritual understanding and motivation to obey God (Hebrews:8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:; 10:16); but we are all still human and still sin out of ignorance and weakness.
Christ came to model the way of life His followers have to live. Not only is Christ our Savior, but He is also our Brother. Far more important than whether or not He could have sinned is the fact that He never did sin. Rather, He lived a sin-free life as an example for us to follow, and died to pay the price for our sins. ucg.org
Tempted do do his own will instead of the Father is a temptation to sin
Colossians 2:9; For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,
Can God's nature sin?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 07, 2011, 02:47:06 AM
Colossians 2:9; For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,
Can God's nature sin?
We are NOT saying the Father that is in the son could have sinned, were saying Jesus the man could have sinned if He did not listen to the Father that was within Him.
John 10:30;
"I and the Father are one."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 07, 2011, 04:21:25 PM
John 10:30;
"I and the Father are one."
Well me and Jesus and the Father are one also, yet I still get tempted and fall into sin.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 07, 2011, 04:21:25 PM
John 10:30;
"I and the Father are one."
Jesus was the Son of God, so maybe you look at it from that angle, the He is invincible, infallible. However the Son of God is also the son of man, and is our kinsman redeemer, therefore being a man he is fallible just as Adam fell. For the man Christ Jesus is the second Adam.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 07, 2011, 04:21:25 PM
John 10:30;
"I and the Father are one."
The eternal God was dead for 3 days...
Probably it's from the perspective of Eternity...
In Eternity time is NOT...
Therefore, even before the world was Created, the Lamb was already "slain" or set up to be slain; and just as Adam condemned all men. Christ secured jusfication of life for all (from the foundation of the world).
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 08, 2011, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 07, 2011, 05:08:22 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 07, 2011, 04:21:25 PM
John 10:30;
"I and the Father are one."
The eternal God was dead for 3 days...
Of whom do you refer?
Yes, "of whom do you refer?" I dont understand, "The eternal God was dead for 3 days..."
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 08, 2011, 06:06:57 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 08, 2011, 03:58:03 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 07, 2011, 05:08:22 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 07, 2011, 04:21:25 PM
John 10:30;
"I and the Father are one."
The eternal God was dead for 3 days...
Of whom do you refer?
Yes, "of whom do you refer?" I dont understand, "The eternal God was dead for 3 days..."
Me either, Micah.
Hey Card! what say you?
:cloud9: About what?
:cloud9: I'm not sure I understand the comment either, but obviously he was talking about Jesus..... :dontknow:
Ok, Miss Mod you asked for it :whistleshake:
It was my reply to the trinitarian reasoning why Jesus could not have sinned :laughing7:
(delete this message with free will....)
:cloud9: Ok, gotcha.....
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2011, 04:41:16 PM
Ok, Miss Mod you asked for it :whistleshake:
It was my reply to the trinitarian reasoning why Jesus could not have sinned :laughing7:
(delete this message with free will....)
Hi, what is trinitarian reasoning?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on June 09, 2011, 04:50:54 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 09, 2011, 04:41:16 PM
Ok, Miss Mod you asked for it :whistleshake:
It was my reply to the trinitarian reasoning why Jesus could not have sinned :laughing7:
(delete this message with free will....)
Hi, what is trinitarian reasoning?
Probably 90% of the christian religion :sigh:
That seems a large number. The majority of trinitarians are Catholics and possibly a few other denominations.
I don't believe they have 90% of Christian share.
You are right TT, I say 89 possibly 89.5% at max!
Seriously Wikipedia states "Nontrinitarianism refers to beliefs systems that reject the doctrine of the Trinity. They are a small minority of Christians. Various nontrinitarian views, such as adoptionism or modalism, existed in early Christianity, leading to the disputes about Christology."
I can find no exact percentage but 80-95% Trinitarians seems a good guess based on the Wikipedia quote.