Slain from the foundation of the world

[micah7:9]

This might annoy some of you, but this might be the truth of the matter and bring greater understanding.


The lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

This verse is used to prove that God prepared Adam and Eve to fail. That he deliberatly wanted them to fail in the garden.

But...the lnaguage here used is "world". not Earth.


This makes a difference.


Jesus Christ came to save the world. The world heareth them, but he that heareth God is not of the world.
So when did the world begin?

Genesis 1.1?

I believe it started sometime after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out from Eden, into the world.


Which means that the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world was slain and prepared as a sacrifice AFTER Adam and Eve sinned.

I will say this, nothing "failed," God did not make anything or anyone to fail. All has His Plan and Purpose.

[WhiteWings]

That's another point we seem to disagree about. The "wanted" of God are not possibilities or hopes. They are facts.

Well God WANTED to take Israel under His wings as a hen does her chicks, but He could not because they would not have Him. So did God get what He wanted here? Not according to Jesus.

I understand your point but I don't think is means God failed. I can't express how I think about it. But maybe this gives a impression of what I mean.
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree they hid from God. God asked "where are you?" Did God really not know where Adam and Eve where hiding?

Foreknowledge works hand and hand with predestination. God foreknows every step man will make along the path man has chosen to walk. This does not mean God foreknows the choice man will make BEFORE man makes the choice.

That's foreknowledge without foreknowing :dontknow:

Jesus did NOT have to die on the cross, He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him and God would have supplied those legions of angels to do just that. But He(Jesus) choose obedience (not my will but thine be done).
Now you might say but God foreknew Jesus would make the choice He made, but if that is the case why then does it say God would have sent the 12 legions to deliver him?

If Jesus called the legions He wouldn't have be crucified. At that tiem He would have become the Saviour of no one.

So a perfect potter made inperfect pots?

Yes. We are NOT yet made in the image and likeness of God,

I agree because the verse about the image is  abad translation. (imo)



only the image and likeness of God is a perfect vessel.

I have to guess what exactly you mean by that remark but let me say I "always" understood the Bible teaches salvation of all.
But yes it's possible we reach agreemnet on this in the future.

It could be that I am confusing you with another brother, but I thought at one time you were an atheist or at least leaned toward atheism.

That's me. But I think I have to clarify things a bit.
From near the start of my search I was sure the Bible teaches UR. It's a book that's written well with many complex story lines. So far I think I'm in agreement with most on this forum. My struggle is that I still have doubt if it was divinely inspired or it just had a good human writer.

[pneuma]

Hi Scott. I know what you've said, and my statement includes many people. I've seen those type of sentiments in many places places in UR.

What you specifically said is that you don't believe all the scriptures in the Bible are really scripture - only the ones you believe are scripture are the ones you believe are inspired. Which IMO, leaves one picking and choosing which scriptures they believe are true. Also IMO, your definition of the scriptures is a misrepresentation.

Your free to believe what you want to Jab, but to tell other to BE AWARE of me because I don't believe everything in today's bibles are scripture is going a little far don't you think.

What you are implying to TT is that he is in error in what he believes because he is in agreement with me on this topic.

Doesn't mean you're not my brother, but we have some quite basic, foundational disagreements; and at the very least, if those I have disagreements with believe the scriptures are reliable and trustworthy (accurately translated, Spirit revealed) then we have a standard of which to refer. But OTOH, if one picks and chooses what they accept as scripture, then one's really pretty much free to believe and say anything they wish. Which one can do anyway, but may expect to be (hopefully gently, lovingly) "confronted".

Yes I am your brother Jab, but I have explain why I believe what I do on that link. So if you do not believe that the lying pen of the scribes ADDED to scripture as Jeremiah states are you not picking and choosing which scripture you want to believe?

Can you not see that the argument that you presented above can go both ways? 

Yes, TT can make up his own mind, I didn't tell him not to. But I like to know the perspective from which information I'm consuming is coming from, and it may be of others' benefit as well. If not, they're free to ignore it and move on.

Basically saying if you agree with Scott you better be aware that he does not believe everything in the bible is scripture. Therefore implying if they agree with what I have said they are in error.

A simple test for you Jab (and anyone else who cares to take the time to look it up)

1Jn.5:7

Inspired word of God or, an interpolation by man?

[thinktank]

Foreknowledge works hand and hand with predestination. God foreknows every step man will make along the path man has chosen to walk. This does not mean God foreknows the choice man will make BEFORE man makes the choice. Jesus did NOT have to die on the cross, He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him and God would have supplied those legions of angels to do just that. But He(Jesus) choose obedience (not my will but thine be done).
Now you might say but God foreknew Jesus would make the choice He made, but if that is the case why then does it say God would have sent the 12 legions to deliver him?

Pneuma

-------------

That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.

....Brings a whole new meaning to Father Sacrificing His only begotten Son

[WhiteWings]

Yes I am your brother Jab, but I have explain why I believe what I do on that link. So if you do not believe that the lying pen of the scribes ADDED to scripture as Jeremiah states are you not picking and choosing which scripture you want to believe?

What link??? (what verse)
Without having read your article I can say the Scribes indeed added lots of junk. But as far as I know not to the OT itself but in their own scrolls (they also used for teaching and ruling)

[pneuma]

I understand your point but I don't think is means God failed. I can't express how I think about it. But maybe this gives a impression of what I mean.
When Adam and Eve ate from the tree they hid from God. God asked "where are you?" Did God really not know where Adam and Eve where hiding?

I don't believe God failed either WW. Reread my post God did not want to sacrifice His Son.
You will not see God failing, you will see God getting all He desires. Either by obedience or sacrifice God in the end gets it ALL. But that does not mean He wanted or pre-planned to sacrifice Jesus.
The very idea of sacrifice is the giving of something precious that you really do not want to give. If you want to give it, it really isn't a sacrifice.

That's foreknowledge without foreknowing

That's not what I am saying brother. When we chose death God knows every step we will have to endure because of that choice, the same as when we chose life God knows every blessing we will get because of that choice.

If Jesus called the legions He wouldn't have be crucified. At that tiem He would have become the Saviour of no one.

Your missing the point brother. Could Jesus have called for the 12 legions of angel and would God have sent them? Yes or no.
If yes, (and Jesus says its yes) then obviously Jesus believed He could have set aside Gods plan for him by exercising His own will instead of the Fathers.

I agree because the verse about the image is abad translation. (imo)
only the image and likeness of God is a perfect vessel.

Another agreement, see your already starting to agree with me :laughing7:

That's me. But I think I have to clarify things a bit.
From near the start of my search I was sure the Bible teaches UR. It's a book that's written well with many complex story lines. So far I think I'm in agreement with most on this forum. My struggle is that I still have doubt if it was divinely inspired or it just had a good human writer.

LOL then you might enjoy the link I provided.

[pneuma]

Yes I am your brother Jab, but I have explain why I believe what I do on that link. So if you do not believe that the lying pen of the scribes ADDED to scripture as Jeremiah states are you not picking and choosing which scripture you want to believe?

What link??? (what verse)
Without having read your article I can say the Scribes indeed added lots of junk. But as far as I know not to the OT itself but in their own scrolls (they also used for teaching and ruling)

this link WW

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/someone_help_me_please..._9407.msg117847.html#msg117847

[pneuma]

Foreknowledge works hand and hand with predestination. God foreknows every step man will make along the path man has chosen to walk. This does not mean God foreknows the choice man will make BEFORE man makes the choice. Jesus did NOT have to die on the cross, He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him and God would have supplied those legions of angels to do just that. But He(Jesus) choose obedience (not my will but thine be done).
Now you might say but God foreknew Jesus would make the choice He made, but if that is the case why then does it say God would have sent the 12 legions to deliver him?

Pneuma

-------------

That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.

....Brings a whole new meaning to Father Sacrificing His only begotten Son

:thumbsup:

Now that a sacrifice worth talking about

[Beloved Servant]

That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.

It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38

[pneuma]

That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.

It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38

Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.

[jabcat]

Hi Scott. I know what you've said, and my statement includes many people. I've seen those type of sentiments in many places places in UR.

What you specifically said is that you don't believe all the scriptures in the Bible are really scripture - only the ones you believe are scripture are the ones you believe are inspired. Which IMO, leaves one picking and choosing which scriptures they believe are true. Also IMO, your definition of the scriptures is a misrepresentation.

Your free to believe what you want to Jab, but to tell other to BE AWARE of me because I don't believe everything in today's bibles are scripture is going a little far don't you think.

What you are implying to TT is that he is in error in what he believes because he is in agreement with me on this topic.

If I may, let me suggest what I believe is going too far, Scott.  Blatantly going against the rules of the forum.  You've been allowed to do so now twice in the last few times you've been on.  If you read the FAQ's you'll see that ONCE (in this category - "trashing" [discounting] the scriptures) is typically considered a "fatal" action.  Please take this into consideration.

Warning someone of listening to people who don't believe the whole of the scriptures, is in fact, our duty.  I agree we must be careful, as none of us has all the truth and understanding, so differences of opinion are to be expected.   Still, just to my own understanding, I believe there are some bottom lines (including forum guidelines) - and Paul said to expose those who contradict.  Tank, you, anyone, can believe whatever they will, but I will encourage TT or others that at the very least they need to cast their lot with believers who don't pick and choose what scriptures THEY accept, while rejecting large portions of others.  IMO, that leaves doctrine up to whatever the mind says it is.  Tank has POVs that are different than others on the forum, and vice versa.  But as far as I know, he believes all scripture is inspired, and that except for any known translational issues, the scriptures can be trusted as a guide.  Therefor, fruitful exploration and discussion can occur.  But if the starting point is "much of what's in the Bible isn't true", then IMO, anything can be said and attempted to be presented as the truth - and often is.   I believe a person, especially on this forum, needs to have information available to them about what perspective an individual is coming from.  Then they can make up their own mind. 

Your John example is somewhat irrelevant in this discussion, because that (and a VERY FEW others) are pretty known/proven translational issues - which is not what this is about - it's about arbitrarily thowing out whole chunks of scripture because they don't fit with our own view and understanding of personal doctrine (or whatever the reason may be).  As WW said, the scribes added and deleted all kinds of things in their own writings and Jewish fables.

As for the most part of this thread has been able to do, let's please move back to the OP.  Thanks, James. 

[Beloved Servant]

That's interesting. You know had Jesus failed, God could have lost his Son for eternity.

It was impossible for Jesus to fail or be lost
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me — John 6:38

Yes as long as He did the will of the Father and not His own will it was impossible for Him to be lost.

"as long as"  <— ???
He specifically states that He came to do the Fathers will.
Period.

[thinktank]

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

That's another miracle/feat that I see Christ accomplished.

Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not

[jabcat]

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

That's another miracle/feat that I see Christ accomplished.

Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not

Amen.  Wonderful, touching scriptures. 

[rosered]

wow , yall ' are so fast Lol I dont stand a snowballs chance  ha ha ,  gone a few hours and  wheww!!   got to read another page !!  :HeartThrob:       good stuff guys ,   :icon_flower:
 
Thanks WW, Scott  and Think tank , love that last scripture :) it also pertains to   this idea I hope to express   , without sin  :thumbsup:    being innocent /righteous  blood  in other words  the innocent are slain / Body of Christ     ,  our first example is Able  , this innocent/righteous  blood shed  , was the first example   to me

This was why Jesus  Christ /meaning  salvation annoited  though obedience  Abel was  a keeper of sheep
with this in mind Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Eve was  being saved though childbearing    we see this example  of the knowledge of good and evil 
through Cain and Abel   
Cain slew Abel 
and we know Ables blood  cried out from the ground / this blood shed  was innocent /righteous blood
Him being part of the Body of Christ Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
    because at the End of the Age   Jesus Christ made the open show and  said forgive them Father for they know not  what they do .....    this Mercy  come  openly
  where as Abel   needed avenging
Jesus  spoke this  and it makes sense to me now why   from the foundation  to right up where Jesus was  fixing to go the the cross  Onely  no one  made him do this but it was Gods will the Father , to MAKE PLAINLY KNOWN from than to right now and  whoever will read and believe it
Mat 23:35   That upon you may come    all    the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 
its the  same ol story  over and over again   to hate your broher is the same as a murderer  in your heart  that must be made clean / ridding your conscience of the evil thoughts that keep us bound to sin /death
:(  hope this makes some kind of sense  or i will have to go back into  silent mode  :sigh:

[rosered]

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

That's another miracle/feat that I see Christ accomplished.

Isaiah 53:3
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not

Amen.  Wonderful, touching scriptures.

Hi James   :HeartThrob:  these are awesome
  hope you have it in your heart to forgive me for leaving in the  Judas huff  thread , I had to take a break , I was  having a hard time explaining    some thoughts ...  I was never mad just weary , a Truth  :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

Hey rosie.  nothing to forgive dear sister.  we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :).  some days I'm much lumpier than others.   

good to see you  :LoveH1:

[Molly]

and we know Ables blood  cried out from the ground / this blood shed  was innocent /righteous blood
Him being part of the Body of Christ Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

Hi Rosered, are you saying here that Abel is part of the body of Christ?  How do you know this?

Is Cain also part of the body of Christ?  Thanks.  WB!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:.....it's not He doesn't like sacrifice, it's that He doesn't like OUR sacrifices, just like He said we are gods but die like men. The focus is not on dying, but on HOW we die, just as the focus is not on sacrifice, but on HOW we sacrifice.

The sacrifice that is being esteemed, is laying down our life for our brother. The Son was doing in the end of that age, what He saw the Father do IN THE BEGINNING, from the foundation of THAT world, as a visible example of that which is not seen with natural eyes. We couldn't perceive what the Father did in the Spirit in the beginning, but we could perceive the Son walking it out in shoe leather, because only the Son knows the Father. He did it for us.

He said He only did what He saw His Father do, and that includes, a sacrifice of Himself, because when God who is Spirit, poured Himself and fragmented Himself into His creation, it was a type of "death" or sacrifice to Him, as He lowered Himself out of the spiritual and into the physical. Blessings....

[rosered]

Hey rosie.  nothing to forgive dear sister.  we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :).  some days I'm much lumpier than others.   

good to see you  :LoveH1:

  HA HA HA ! Best chuckle I had all Day ! THANKS for the  hard belly laugh  :laughing7: :laughing7:
  good  to be amongst friends again  :HeartThrob: missed you guys really , its true

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: That is a good one, somehow I missed that comment in my haste  :laughing7: Glad you're back, Rosie, check your PM's..... :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

and we know Ables blood  cried out from the ground / this blood shed  was innocent /righteous blood
Him being part of the Body of Christ Hbr 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.

Hi Rosered, are you saying here that Abel is part of the body of Christ?  How do you know this?

Is Cain also part of the body of Christ?  Thanks.  WB!

Will Hi Miss Molly by golly !  :HeartThrob:

How do I know this , by this scripture Sis   1Cr 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.
   the righteous blood shed   for a covering  for  sin is Christ right ??
  is not Abel apart of  Jesus Christ ? I say YES !

Hbr 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

  The werid thing , most cannot hear me speak is because  , seeing that  good and evil in action  cain represents the evil as  Abel the good  , in the tree of knowledge of good and evil  we first experince 
by scriptures  than  on a personal level

  cain  his works   , done in his body  was by the wicked  one , its the works sis  , thats judged of God
  note its the works always judged of God I see Cain as a prisoner of sin / death  , he went off in fear after his wicked work

1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

  hope this helps 
Jesus has overcome the wicked one , so when cain dies in the flesh / temporial  realm /  he will be free from sin   because Jesus knew that those bound to sin would need to be delivered ..
  thats how I am seeing this at this time ... you may  have something else to make me think differnt 
some times  the thoughts , or how we think  , of earthly  or of the heavenly  , makes us bound or free
  I come and go often 0-O   ..

[rosered]

:cloud9: That is a good one, somehow I missed that comment in my haste  :laughing7: Glad you're back, Rosie, check your PM's..... :HeartThrob:

Hey Girly ! :gangel:   I did check my pm 's and see nothing ??    anyhoo ! its great to see you sista C  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Hey rosie.  nothing to forgive dear sister.  we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :).  some days I'm much lumpier than others.   

good to see you  :LoveH1:

  HA HA HA ! Best chuckle I had all Day ! THANKS for the  hard belly laugh  :laughing7: :laughing7:
  good  to be amongst friends again  :HeartThrob: missed you guys really , its true

Well, it's true  :mblush:

Struggling through one of those days.  But God is good, and He's mighty to save.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ

[rosered]

Hey rosie.  nothing to forgive dear sister.  we're all formed out of the same lump of clay :).  some days I'm much lumpier than others.   

good to see you  :LoveH1:

  HA HA HA ! Best chuckle I had all Day ! THANKS for the  hard belly laugh  :laughing7: :laughing7:
  good  to be amongst friends again  :HeartThrob: missed you guys really , its true

Well, it's true  :mblush:

Struggling through one of those days.  But God is good, and He's mighty to save.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-08YZF87OBQ

awesome ! :thumbsup:   :HeartThrob: