Tentmaker Forum

 Do we all agree there will be a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ here on this litteral earth?

If so, what purpose will it serve? Do you think people will be married, or babies born during that reign?

Do you understand the vision of Daniel concerning this event?That it is about all the world from start to finish?

Daniel 2: 36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[What can THIS mean, Are all humans men in God's eyes?]
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.  

What do you think the millineum is for,and who will be in that millineum?Why will the kingdom not be left to other people than those in the vision?

"The whole earth, from end to end, will remember and come back to the Lord. Yes, the entire human family will worship in His Presence, for the Eternal reigns, Lord of all nations."

Je ne peux pas dire comment qu'Il gagnera les nations,
Comment Il réclamera Son héritage terrestre,
Comment satisfaire les besoins et les aspiration
D'Est et l'Ouest, de pécheur et de sauge.
Mais ceci je sais, toute chair verra Sa gloire,
Et Il récoltera la moisson qu'Il a semée,
Et quelque jour content que Son soleil brillera dans la splendeur
Quand Il le Sauveur, le Sauveur du monde est su.

Je ne peux pas dire comment que toutes les terres adoreront,
Quand, à Ses enchères, chaque orage est stilled,
Ou qui peut dire comment grand la jubilation
Quand tous les coeurs d'hommes avec l'amour sont remplis.
Mais ceci je sais, les cieux passionneront avec le ravissement,
Et la myriade, la myriade voix humaines chantent,
Et la terre au Ciel, et le Ciel à la terre, répondra :
enfin le Sauveur, le Sauveur du monde est le Roi !

Sing it HERE (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/i/c/icnotwhy.htm)

That song and poem were from  William Young Fullerton who was a pupil of  Spurgeon as well as the President of the Baptist Union ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_Union_of_Great_Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_Union_of_Great_Britain)), he had alot of influence and followers, the world respected him.

Spurgeon was the most popular preacher of the mid 18'00's and was a Baptist.  He was very well known and had a huge following due to his excellent 'speaking style' of which William Young Fullerton envied and attempted to emulate.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d4/SpurgeonSurrey.jpg/250px-SpurgeonSurrey.jpg)

I tend to question folks who make money on the Gospel with huge followings.  It's just my nature.  At any rate.......

Anyone want to try to answer my question?

No ideas??

Even little trolls dropped on their heads as babies will be restored!  :bgdance:

"I will restore!"

QuoteAnd I will restore all the years that the locust have eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpillar, and the palmerworm, My great army which I sent among you.

"I will restore!

Restore= Shuwb=

To restore/ refresh/ repair.

To return back/ to turn back.

To cause to return/ to cause to bring back.

To come back to spiritual relationship.

To enticingly lead away.

To reverse/ to revoke.

To be returned/ to be restored/ to be brought back.

"I will restore!

Restore= Shalam

Shalam=

To be in a covenant of peace/ to be at peace.

To make peace with/ to cause to be at peace.

To be complete/ to be sound.

To be complete/ to be finished/ to be ended.

To make sound/ to make safe/ to make whole or good.

To complete/ to perform/ to make an end of.

To be requited.

Restore= `Alah

`Alah=

To go up/ to ascend/ to climb.

To spring up/ to grow up/ to shoot forth.

To go up/ to go over/ to rise.

To come up before God.

To go up/ to go up over/ to extend the boundary.

To be taken up/ to be brought up/ to be taken over.

To bring up/ to cause to ascend/ to cause to go up.

To rouse/ to stir up/ to be taken up into/ to be inserted again.


Troll: in anticipation of you ultimately being restored to union and communion with the Living One, please lead us in singing......

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/h/ahtpojn.htm

 No answers with scripture at ALL? No idea what the millineum or Daniel's prophecy is about? :dontknow:

I have no idea what the millineum is about? :dontknow:

Search= millineum



Troll=

HERE (http://www.onelook.com/?w=troll&ls=a)

 Search the scriptures! Not a dictionary.

Matthew 7:7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

As I understand it, the Overcomers will be raised from the dead or given their immortal bodies at the beginning of the Millenium in the first resurrection. They will then have this age (perhaps a thousand actual years) to put down all rule and authority and to establish the Kingdom on earth. After this, the rest of the dead will be raised and judged and either enter the city if their name is in the Book of Life or cast into the Lake of Fire if not.

So, the Millenium is when the Manifested Sons of God establish the Kingdom on earth and Overcome all opposing rule and authority.

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


John

There is a BIG purpose for Christ's 1,000 year reign!

There is going to be a new heaven, and a new Earth, during the Millennium things will be restored, fixed. We will be like kings and priests in His Kingdom, his Government. There will be immortal people (us, those in Christ, those resurrected from the graves (hades/hell/sheol) who were believers), and the mortal people, it will be our job to teach them (mortals, those in the flesh) the Word, and about Jesus. This will last a 1,000 years, until the resurrection of the unjust. Earth will be like heaven for mortals and immortals, because Satan and his angels will have been bound a thousand years.

1 Peter 1:7
7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

"I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people." —Revelation 14:6

The work of that thousand years will be one of trial, judgment, and discipline for those on Earth. The Scriptures teach that Jesus will be the Judge supreme during that time, as well as the great King. This will occur before the resurrection of the unjust, and the Lake of Fire.

That 1,000 year period is more magnificent than we can think or comprehend. We cannot even begin to fathom WHAT God has in store for us in that age! Just to be immortal alone on the Earth in the Kingdom City with Christ will be mind boggling for those in the Flesh. I imagine immortals will not be allowed into the Holy City, though.

When God comes back, bad things will melt and burn away on the Earth. Not a Literal Fire. (2 Peter 3:10-13) He will come back to restore everything, as He promised long ago.

Acts 3:21
21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.


Then,  in the end, with his judgment, he is going to correct everyone. He is going to do away with all sin, evil, and anything imperfect and immoral. Everyone human being who has not received Christ here on Earth WILL have to die out to sin by being thrown into the lake of fire, which is "the second death". They already died the first time, now they must die a second time -- to sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Habakkuk 2:14
14For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Hebrews 10:17
17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

"And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages [aions] to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
• Ephesians 2:6–7

I remember that Peter wrote that with the Lord, a thousand years is the same as one day. (The day of the Lord, the day of Christ?)

Bri

The first purpose is to establish Christ's kingdom on earth. This will begin . . .

Rom 11:25 "For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins."

It is to do away with the man of lawlessness and put an end to the persecution of Christ's brethren (Matt.25:31-46).

It is to undo that which the great earthquake demolished:

"Rev 16:18 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred. And a great earthquake occurred, such as did not occur since mankind came to be on the earth; of such proportions was the quake and so great."
Rev 16:19 And the great city came to be divided into three parts; and the cities of the nations fall. And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation."

It is to prove that even under the divine direction of God's Son, humanity still fail:

Rev 20:8 And he will be coming out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea."
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and surround the citadel of the saints and the beloved city. And fire descended from God out of heaven and devoured them."
Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."

It is to prove that humanity, in accord with the flesh is not able to please God.

Tony

 What is the reason for the following scripture coming to pass?  Who are they going to reign over, and for what purpose?  What is the judgement given to them?  To what end?  Over whom?

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Why don't you just tell us why, as no matter what those who believe in UR say, you will refute.  Why do you ask questions, when you already know the answers.  Your questions are not to explore, share and fellowship; but to teach doctrine contrary to those who own and operate this site??


Are you here to teach??

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 01:53:24 AM
To what end? 

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Heb 9:11  But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Heb 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Heb 8:5  Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.

the end of "types and figure, shadows", fulfilled in Christ.

Heb 8:2  A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb 9:8  The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was , not yet made manifest while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:  

Types and shadows, "made with hands" (carnal MINDSET) that would dissolve:

Tabernacle

Priesthood

Sacrifices

Temple

Throne

Seed

Israel

Mountain

Jerusalem

Land


Fulfillment:

JESUS CHRIST

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


who came full of TRUTH and GRACE

I attempt to make you think and question what the scriptures say. There is an explanation of what that thousand years is for that is wonderfull.
I wondered if any of you had really looked into why there should be a thousand year reign of Christ and the Saints. Guess not. :2c:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 02:31:41 AM
I attempt to make you think and question what the scriptures say. There is an explanation of what that thousand years is for that is wonderfull.
I wondered if any of you had really looked into why there should be a thousand year reign of Christ and the Saints. Guess not. :2c:

The thing is, I would probably agree with you, as to the scriptures you will use to define the 1000 years, as you do a great job of listing scriptures.  The difference is the interpretation in light of universal LOVE.  I see reconciliation as coming through the destruction.  The destruction of the "self defined self" that was given authority through precedence of types and figures. 


1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.




When this comes crashing down, "every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord".  The self defined self within types and shadows is destroyed.   

Praise HIM.

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 02:31:41 AM
I attempt to make you think and question what the scriptures say. There is an explanation of what that thousand years is for that is wonderfull.
I wondered if any of you had really looked into why there should be a thousand year reign of Christ and the Saints. Guess not. :2c:

The hard part for me, that is my ego; is that you present your side as the Truth, rather than an opinion. 

There are others here that do that too, and it is frustrating.  It appears as the teacher teaching the student.


whatever happened to "in my opionin, or the way I see things", etc....

an actual conversation of two SHARING in fellowship rather than one trying to out trump the other.

As far as living and reigning with Christ for a thousand years.... It depends on whether you take a premillenialist perspective, an amillenial perspective, or a postmillenialist perspective.  If there's any other perspective on this passage in Revelation 20, I don't know of one.

For the amillenialist, like St. Augustine, the Protestant Reformers, and others, those who are amillenialist would view that thousand year period as figuratively speaking about the time period between the first and second comings of Christ and we'd simply be dealing with the reign/struggle of the saints in this world against darkness, the devil, unbelievers, etc.  The amillenialist tends to even go so far as to say that reigning with Christ in this world prior to the second coming is figurative 'cause of the strict adherence to "remnant" theology where the Church prior to the second coming never really amounts to anything of any overwhelming consequence where this world is concerned.  Amillenialists would definitely not understand anything of a natural Kingdom of Israel on earth reigning with Christ for any length of time prior to the general resurrection!  Amillenialism is very fatalistic.

For the premillenialist, (which includes all of the rapture theory) they would view a period of time after the return of Christ when the Church would reign alongside of natural Israel over the sheep nations prior to the White Throne Judgment.  Premillenialists tend to be the most dogmatic about a literal 1000 years on the Jewish calendar being how long that Christ, the Church, and Israel would reign over the sheep nations of the earth.  Premillenialism is the dispensationalist idea that tries to assert that God still "owes" natural Israel an earthly Kingdom of David.  There are prima facie Scriptures along those lines like the Ezekiel 37-38 passage that describes a war of the latter years after which God would place David upon the throne of Israel, which many theologians believe to be Christ rather than literally King David of old.  But Galatians chapters 3 and 4, and Hebrews chapters 8, 11, 12, and 13 assert that the land grant that's a part of the Jeremiah 31 "New Covenant" prophecy is a spiritual inheritance rather than an earthly Kingdom.  2Corinthians 3:6 says that the New Covenant has spiritual fulfillments, so that although physical land, property, or other benefits may be involved, the fulfillments aren't rooted in the natural in the way that some of the television Bible prophecy teachers would expect.

From the postmillenialist perspective, the thousand year time period is the final phase of the Church age prior to the return of Christ when the Body of Christ essentially experiences a golden age of unprecidented fulfillment of the promises of Christ's Kingdom and when unbelievers on earth become at least a total rarity, if not nonexistent altogether from the earth.  You don't have to believe in UR to be a postmillenialist 'cause postmillenialism doesn't touch upon all that have died in previous ages, ages after the White Throne Judgment, and questions of that nature.  But Postmillenialism easily leads to UR by consequence in my thinking, and that's one of the reasons why I've abandoned premillenialism in favor of it.  It doesn't have the fatalism of amillenialism that the Body of Christ will never really amount to anything in this life, as far as a leading cultural influence.  And it doesn't share the fatalism of premillenialism that because Jesus could come back any second, you're probably wasting your time getting that degree and thinking that you're going to make a difference for Christ in the secular job market, etc.  Postmillenialism is a triumphant view of the Church that envisions the Gospel making a difference in a very overpowering way in this world where every false religion will fall before the preaching of the Gospel and the Kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ's in real present history rather than as a big eschatological chaotic "big bang."  Postmillenialism has at the center of it's eschatology "Jesus Christ," rather than "Israel."  Postmillenialism views all of the Old Testament promises of the New Covenant as having been given to Jesus Christ and not to Israel, so that although Israel may have been reborn as a natural country, they're not "the sign" of anything.  What's relevant for signs and wonders is the Body of Christ and the preaching of the Gospel as Jesus Christ backs the preaching of the Word with signs following.  This view sometimes gets branded as antisemitism by zionist premillenialists, but I don't see how viewing eschatology in a Christocentric way would be either "replacement theology" or "antisemitic."  It's just being faithful to every verse of the Bible that I've ever read.

To recap, in case I lost anyone.  I know of 3 interpretations of the "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."  Each view is a little different depending upon which view of eschatology that you embrace: 

Amillenialists would view the thousand years as the figurative time between the first and second comings of Christ, and therefore the reign of the believer as symbolic of their struggle against evil and to gather in as many to Christ as possible. 

Premillenialists would view the living and reigning a thousand years as the reigning of the saints with Christ for a thousand years over this old earth prior to the resurrection.  And some premillenialists go so far as to include natural Israel as those who reign with Christ and the saints over the sheep nations for a very literal thousand years on the Jewish calendar.

Postmillenialists would view the living and reigning a thousand years with Christ as the reign of the saints in this life, prior to the return of Christ, during an unprecidented time of expansion on the part of the preaching of the Gospel and the number of believers in the earth when believers would be the rule of each country on earth rather than the exception; when sin would be greatly reduced.  Some Postmillenialists view the thousand years as literal, while others take the time period as figurative of just that age when there's unprecidented global prosperity for the Gospel.  Some would say that it would be much longer than just a thousand years.

The only nonliteral reign interpretation of the Revelation 20 passage is the Amillenialist one that views this life as "the reign" and as overpowered by darkness and true progress for the preaching of the Gospel as being fleeting, sporadic, etc.  Your other two views of premillenialism and postmillenialism envision a literal reign on the part of believers with Christ, but the exact location of Christ during that thousand years is in dispute between those two views.  Premillenialists viewing Christ as having bodily returned in Revelation 19, while Postmillenialists viewing Christ as not bodily returning until Revelation 21, or only a little prior with the White Throne Judgment.

The eschatology debate is a bit more intricate than how you interpret the last 4 chapters of the book of Revelation.  There are soooo many other prophecies throughout the Bible and ramifications that need to be looked at.  At first glance, the premillenialist seems to be the literalist while the postmillenialist seems to not be so literal in interpretation.  But the literal interpretation of Revelation 19 seems to rather be in the hands of the Postmillenialist as I posted a relevant link regarding on the Book of Revelation board and an excerpt from the article in question that's the briefest handling that I've found thus far on the subject that should be clear to any objective reader without a lot of heavy theological jargon.

Quote from: laren on June 14, 2008, 02:44:34 AM
The hard part for me, that is my ego; is that you present your side as the Truth, rather than an opinion. 

There are others here that do that too, and it is frustrating.  It appears as the teacher teaching the student.

whatever happened to "in my opionin, or the way I see things", etc....

an actual conversation of two SHARING in fellowship rather than one trying to out trump the other.

As far as my tendency to go into "teacher mode," it's the only way that I really know how to share.  I'm at my most personal and one-on-one when I'm simply expressing myself from the heart, in the communication style that the Lord's given me for edification and not for pontification.  A lot of people who come to these boards come to these boards after years of ministry backgrounds.  I could name usernames, but I don't know particulars as far as how many years, who has Bible school and seminary degrees, etc.  But all of those background things of personal history with a lot of people will shape how they share online.  I'm the same way, whether by email, face-to-face, or these boards.  If I get started, then I start laying it out, including competing theories, and any reasons for why I believe like I believe.  When you're dealing with subjects like Biblical subjects where people's passions and convictions are involved, it's going to be hard to have a certain level of detachment and to treat what one is sharing as personal theory or conjecture rather than as a point of view.

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 02:31:41 AM
I attempt to make you think and question what the scriptures say. There is an explanation of what that thousand years is for that is wonderfull.
I wondered if any of you had really looked into why there should be a thousand year reign of Christ and the Saints. Guess not. :2c:

I'd like to know what you have to say, PT.

I'm up for something wonderful. :Sparkletooth:

Quote from: laren on June 14, 2008, 02:44:34 AM

The hard part for me, that is my ego; is that you present your side as the Truth, rather than an opinion. 

There are others here that do that too, and it is frustrating.  It appears as the teacher teaching the student.

whatever happened to "in my opionin, or the way I see things", etc....

an actual conversation of two SHARING in fellowship rather than one trying to out trump the other.

I just reviewed my last couple hundred posts and geez!  I had no idea how much of a "professor mode" that I have.  I'm going to be making quite a few calls tonight, asking quite a few friends as to whether or not I've always been that bad about it.

Quote from: Molly on June 14, 2008, 03:41:26 AM
I'd like to know what you have to say, PT.
I'm up for something wonderful. :Sparkletooth:

same here, Peacetroll.  We're waiting! :bigGrin:

willieH:  Hello PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 02:31:41 AM
I attempt to make you think and question what the scriptures say. There is an explanation of what that thousand years is for that is wonderfull.
I wondered if any of you had really looked into why there should be a thousand year reign of Christ and the Saints. Guess not. :2c:

"Guess not"?   :pointlaugh:

Come on there, Peacetroll... you post this TODAY, and then IMPATIENTLY deduce because no one has yet ANSWERED you TODAY, that no one has an answer or has looked into this scenario presented in the REVELATION?  :mshock: ...please!  :Whistle:

Once you have given us your "wonderful" spiel...  :nod: :wink2:

I WILL have a thing or two to say about the "millenium" (false religious/unbiblical term) which explains what this 1000 years IS, and that explanation is based upon Scriptures which (in my observation) define and REVEAL what it ...IS...   :bgdance:

Let's hear it bro...  and PLEASE, don't forget to note the Scriptures upon which you BASE this observation... which REVEAL (after all it IS in the REVELATION) the meaning of this SYMBOLIC number... :happygrin:

Willi, I don't give spiels, I use scriptures in as orderly a fashion as possible for me,  to make my arguments for what I believe is truth. Spiels are philosophies. Undefendable scripturally. There are several points of view about the meaning of many scriptures, but only one continual, verifiable, constant, story line in the mystery, from the beginning to the end.
We have our instructions on how to go about seeing it. First ask, as Jesus said, and then go to His instructions for how to find.

Luke 11:9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Paul put it this way.

Ephesians 1:17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

The mystery is there for us to learn by His grace.

Isaiah 28:7But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.  

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.  

I will try to give what I believe the thousand years are for next post. It is, as far as I am concerned , lucid, clear in purpose, and just. Fair to all.

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 08:27:40 PM
We have our instructions on how to go about seeing it. First ask, as Jesus said, and then go to His instructions for how to find.

Luke 11:9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

The main thing is to see the orderly fashion in which scripture harmonizes.
Jesus is more telling us how things work.

How are we supposed to seek when it is written....

Ro 3:11 Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God.



How then is this not a contradiction?  Simple, it is seeing the "method" that God uses while allowing us to see the relative perspective.   It appears that WE are the ones seeking because God works in us "individually".

How do I know this Method? 

Phl 2:13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.


And just what would Gods Delight be?   

1Timothy 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable  in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


That is the Method and who is in control of this method, of you, of any being created?

Jn 6:44 No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day.

willieH: Hi PT...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 08:27:40 PM
Willi, I don't give spiels, I use scriptures in as orderly a fashion as possible for me,  to make my arguments for what I believe is truth. Spiels are philosophies. Undefendable scripturally.

Didn't mean to offend you with that word, maybe you don't understand its meaning... it does not mean "philosphies"... it is a delivery which is detailed, and/or "talkative"... [volubly]

MERRIAM WEBSTER:

Main Entry: spiel 
Pronunciation: \ˈspēl\
Function: verb
Etymology: German spielen to play, from Old High German spilōn; akin to Old English spilian to revel
Date: 1870
intransitive verb
1 : to play music
2 : to talk volubly or extravagantly
transitive verb
: to utter, express, or describe volubly or extravagantly
— spiel·er  \ˈspē-lər\ noun  

Definition #2 describes both of us Dusty... and does not indicate that a "SPIEL" is an indefenseable Biblical position OR philosophy...  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi PT...  :happy3:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 08:27:40 PM
I will try to give what I believe the thousand years are for next post. It is, as far as I am concerned , lucid, clear in purpose, and just. Fair to all.

WELL?  :clock:  Time's a-wastin'!   :declare:

Give us some of that "WONDERFUL" bro!  :bgdance:

:dontknow:   :gamer: :surrender:

willieH: Hello to all... :hithere:

As of this date, ...Peacetroll hasn't noted "his (wonderful) take" on what this "Thousand" year period actually IS, but I shall give you mine...  :Sparkletooth:  (though you may not necessarily find it "wonderful"  :blush:)

You are welcome to see it as you will...  :cloud9:

THIS explanation shall take 2 PARTS to complete (Foundation and Explanation) ...

PART ONE:

FOUNDATION...

First... the word MILLENIUM is NOT a Biblical term, and so from a Biblical perspective, it finds itself as an "addition" to it...  If anything, it is a THEOLOGICAL term which was invented by man...

Don't know about you, but whenever I encounter a term relating to something "Biblical", which is not found in the Bible, I question it immediately...

Second... There has recently been quite a lot of discussion as to WHAT the "Word of God" actually is, so I must first, before going any further note my position in observing where the BIBLE stands in proximity to the "Word of God"...

The "Bible" is found in many varying translations into English, and with those variables, the version which best make ones "Theological point", is the one utilized to do so...  :dontknow:

As for me, the KJV is pretty much the exclusive version I use.  Why? 

Consistency in Biblical perspective for one (don't have to retrace which version I use or used to make my observation)... also... Though I align myself with the growing number which agrees that MANY ERRORS lie within it... I find that the KJV is the easiest version TO CORRECT... or trace/locate those errors...

Other versions do not have the available particular WORD definitions which were translated to English (except the [CLT/YLT] Literal Translations - which I will use, from time to time BECAUSE they are translated LITERALLY from Greek and Hebrew terms as is done in the KJV)

All that said... I observe that the "MILLENIUM", along with it's many sister teachings found in Christianity - Trinity, Rapture, Separation from GOD, Free Will, Sinner's Prayer, etc... find their "theologically" attached "terminology" ABSENT from the "Bible"...

So, as it (millenium) has NO Biblical - Greek or Hebrew defintion, first I shall note its English dictionary definition...

millennium... 
   
Main Entry: mil·len·ni·um 
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈle-nē-əm\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mil·len·nia  \-nē-ə\ or mil·len·niums
Etymology: New Latin, from Latin mille thousand + New Latin -ennium (as in biennium)
Date: circa 1638
1 a: the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth b: a period of great happiness or human perfection
2 a: a period of 1000 years; especially : one reckoned from the beginning of the Christian era <at the start of the third millennium> b: a 1000th anniversary or its celebration

[Note that this terminology (Millennium) came into existence at or around 1638... which means that it's available pertinence (if any) is less than 400 years, of the 2000 years Revelation has been available to man.]

There is more than ONE reference in the "bible" to a 1000 "years", as it relates to GOD... which is SYMBOLICALLY mentioned in Rev 20:1-15

In this passage, we also find the MYSTERIOUS and SYMBOLIC "Lake of Fire" and questions inevitably arise as to WHAT this entity is as well...   :mshock:

In the following post, I hope to define for you, ...BOTH the "1000 years" and the "Lake of Fire", as well as their relationship to each other...  :thumbsup:

Don't want you to get too wearied by the length, which is INDEED necessary!  :heat:

Again, I welcome you to reject what I say, as you should choose...  :winkgrin:

We're all searching... hope this endeavor helps your search...   :giveheart:

willieH: Hello to all... :hithere:

PART TWO:

EXPLANATION...

I would like to first "zero in" on a portion of the previously noted ENGLISH DICTIONARY definition of "millennium", which I believe is VERY MISLEADING and an ADDITION (enlarged below) to what the "Bible" actually NOTES... (Let's see if you caught this as you read it in my previous post)...

Quotemillennium... 
   
Main Entry: mil·len·ni·um 
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈle-nē-əm\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mil·len·nia  \-nē-ə\ or mil·len·niums
Etymology: New Latin, from Latin mille thousand + New Latin -ennium (as in biennium)
Date: circa 1638
1 a: the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth b: a period of great happiness or human perfection

This portion of definition is NOT NOTED in the "bible"... there is no indication that this period of CHRIST's "reign" to be a period of "GREAT HAPPINESS", nor "HUMAN PERFECTION"

The Bible simply says:

(Rev 20:4) ...they LIVED and REIGNED with CHRIST a thousand years... ...and,

(Rev 20:6) ...blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIESTS of God and of CHRIST, and shall REIGN with Him a thousand years.

No mention of "PERFECTION", nor of "GREAT HAPPINESS"... so the ENGLISH DICTIONARY defintion above, has ADDED these assumptions to what the "Bible" actually notes...  :dontknow: (btw... WHO are they "REIGN-ING" ...over?  Who are they PRIESTS ...to?  What exactly IS a ...PRIEST?  :JCThink:  Seems to me that others are required by association, in the using of these terms.  :dontknow:)

1000 Years:

First consideration... the "1000" year period is written in a book of SYMBOLS... which makes the "1000" a SYMBOLIC number... (not literally a period of TIME which is 1000 years in duration)

Second consideration... the DAY of YHVH (Y'HoVaH) is where ALL the GENERATIONS of the HISTORY of MAN are found... (Gen 2:4) ...which "DAY" is NOW...

Third consideration... A "DAY" with YHVH is "AS" (like) a THOUSAND "YEARS"... but NOT, ...IS a THOUSAND "YEARS"...

In other words, TIME is irrelevant to the ETERNAL God who views its END from its BEGINNING... but the term "1000 years" IS relevant when considering SPIRITUAL REVELATION... for terms which relate to Him SYMBOLICALLY fall into the "AS" or a "SYMBOLIC / PARABOLIC" form...

Not to be LITERALLY understood... These terms are IMAGES of what actually is said...

The SPIRITUAL reality is ALIVE and PERFECTLY multi-dimensional... the NATURAL is DEAD, and FLAT, and when the SPIRITUAL is percieved incorrectly and incompletely it is observed as follows:

A PAINTING of the MEADOW (natural) is LITERALLY percieved to be the ACTUAL MEADOW (spiritual) which is PAINTED... (hope I'm not going to fast or becoming confusing... its hard to put into words, and admittedly I have not mastered the ability!  :mblush:)

Those who reign WITH CHRIST, do so in the DAY of YHVH... which is IS --- AS a thousand years, not IS a thousand years...

The "DAY" of the LORD is ...NOW! ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of this world, ...NOW is the "day" of Salvation... NOW is the prince of this world CAST OUT... NOW is the ACCEPTED TIME...

There is no LITERAL "1000" year period as peacetroll observes...  The SYMBOLISM for this "1000" years is NOW... ALL the GENERATIONS of MAN have been spent in "NOW"...

ALL LIFE takes place in NOW... not in the past, not in the future... NOW...

(Rev 20:2) "satan" is BOUND in the "DAY (thousand years) of YHVH... within the lives of those who are IN CHRIST... and who are PART of the FIRST RESURRECTION (which are FEW)... which REIGN, takes place IN THIS LIFETIME...

Those who are PART of the First Resurrection were CHOSEN to BE part of it... before the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... (Eph 2:10) 

"TIME" (future or past) does not limit or inhibit the REIGN of CHRIST within them, as it is a REIGN which is done within the DAY of YHVH... which is NOW...

The "DAY" of YHVH is NOW... and that "DAY" is amidst the life of each one IN CHRIST... but is found OUTSIDE (AFTER) the "DAY" in the MANY which is as the SAND of the SEA (Rev 20:8)

Those who are decieved (unable to see or behold CHRIST)... are found OUTSIDE or AFTER the DAY of YHVH... 

This may be hard to grasp... but here goes:

The word translated AFTER in Rev 20:3 is META... which in its definition proposes: amid or accompaniement... also: often used in composition in substancially the SAME relations of PARTICIPATION and PROXIMITY and transfer or SEQUENCE...

I see this passage as noting that DURING not AFTER the "DAY" of YHVH [NOW]... is the Adversary (satan) ...loosed a little season [TIME]... and "out of "it's prison" to deceive the nations which are in the 4 quarters (everywhere) of the earth (men) which are are numbered as the SAND of the SEA... (these being OUTSIDE those IN CHRIST)

Again... this is quite hard to put into words, please forgive my clumsiness...  :mblush:

LAKE OF FIRE...

What is this entity?  Most theologians and especially the VICTIMS of their teachings, subscribe to this being a PLACE of ETERNAL Torment...

I believe it to be NOW... CHRIST counseled us to buy (obtain) GOLD from Him which was TRIED in FIRE (Rev 3:18)... the TRIALS of CHRIST took place in the Human Form and Life that He lived IN TIME...

1. The DEVIL was CAST into this entity (LOF) (Rev 20:10)
2. DEATH and HELL (grave/Hades) were also CAST into this entity (Rev 20:14)
3. Whosoever was not written in the "book of LIFE" was also CAST into this entity (Rev 20:15)

THREE questions with the SAME ANSWER:

1. WHO has the DEVIL (satan) decieved?  ALL have sinned and come short of the GLORY of GOD...

2. HOW many of these found DEATH and the GRAVE?  ALL who have sinned and come short of the GLORY of GOD...

3. WHO have not been written in the "book of LIFE"?  ALL who have sinned and come short of the GLORY of GOD...

Please PRAY before reading this conclusion dear ones...  :Pray:

The "LAKE of FIRE", and the "1000 years" mentioned in the REVELATION (Revealing of JESUS CHRIST) are the DAY (Spiritual) of YHVH...

What is the NEW NAME? (Rev Rev 2:17 / 3:12)

The NEW NAME is  CHRIST...

ALL those IN CHRIST, are no longer "named" OUTSIDE CHRIST... they are MEMBERS of the BODY of CHRIST... which makes their NAME... CHRIST...

Don't know about you friends, but... My MEMBERS,  ... my "arms", "legs", "toenails" and HEAD... are ALL of and are RECOGNIZED, as having the SAME NAME...  :dontknow:

He that hath an EAR, let him hear what the SPIRIT saith unto the churches...  :icon_king:

Hi WillieH,

I'll definitely be re-reading these two last posts of yours at least a couple more times over the next day or two (maybe more).  This builds on the idea of "NOW" that you shared in response to the thread that I'd started on John 12:31-33 that I've been thinking about ever since.  This seems to add some pieces of the puzzle that you didn't share at that time.  Although I'll tend to slam the KJV with the same regularity as "the other Martin," at least with where I'm coming from it's more of an attack on the KJV-only religion that says that if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul, then it's good enough for them!  The KJV will continue in it's spotlight for as long as the older 18th and 19th century UR books that are tremendous study aides on the KJV -- the KJV will endure for as long as those books haven't been "edited for today's reader" with observations based upon other translations.  And of all of the translations, as far as I know, it has the most study aides developed for it like Wigram's Concordance and Young's Concordance, the horribly less reliable newer editions of Strong's and the theologically biased W.E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.  These are but a few of dozens of study aides that are published with the assumption that you're going to be using the KJV for your studies.  I hope that other Universalists will soften their tone with regards to the KJV as I'm trying to, simply from the practicality that it's the translation in the most homes and the easiest study aides to acquire are based on the KJV.  Doesn't make it a fabulous translation by any means, but after a few things have been pointed out about it and the theological assumptions that went into it, then the easier the cases for ET and annihilationism fall apart over a Wigrams Concordance, Young's, Strong's, and Vine's being objectively considered, compared, and thought through with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit.  You can judiciously find the truth even in the KJV if you maintain objectivity and dig through every study resource provided for the KJV.  That's an important point that I think that very few Universalists ever think through and/or mention to others. 

Yes, it's got thousands of mistranslations when you take into account the couple of handfuls of words that are mistranslated and how often they're used throughout the Bible.  But like Mark Twain said about the Bible that it wasn't the parts that he didn't understand that bothered him, but the parts that he did understand that bothered him -- very few of the promises of the Universal Restoration are blacked out as secret government document material by the translators.  There's easily over 250 passages teaching the Universal Restoration that are fairly clear in their implication in the KJV, even if one needs to work through ideas of destruction, punishment, and themes of duration in the Scriptures. 

Either the promises or the judgments need to be qualified in the translation and in one's understanding from one's own studies.  You'll either qualify the promises or the judgments based upon your own understanding of Father's heart, the unity of His purposes, the strength and character of His will, what Christ called perfection, etc.  Some say that the promises must be qualified based upon the eternal surety of the judgments, and you've got to live with that image of God and the ramifications of that upon God's faithfulness towards you, yourself.  Others believe that the promises stand forever, so therefore the answer to the mystery is in reconciling the judgments with the character of God and the usage of the Hebrew and Greek back when the Bible was being written.  But once this issue is pointed out to you, you can no longer hide behind the innocence of former days when you just read through the KJV and didn't see the conflict and tension that needed to be that demanded to be resolved conclusively through your own studies, prayers, and understanding of the Christ within you and what His love would compel you towards.  If Jesus Christ is really within you and you've passed the test, then are the 99 really enough for you?

WillieH, I know about your suspicion of theological terms that aren't in the Bible, but do you think that the implications of what you're saying are pointing towards a full preterism, which some would call a realized eschatology?  'Cause that's the only potential criticism that I can foresee for everything that you've said here.  Do you still see Jesus Christ as literally, bodily returning one day to His restored Creation, even if it's not the Revelation 19 cosmic Rambo scenario?  Premillenialists believe that Jesus is practicing His sword swallowing even now so that a blade can protrude from His mouth right on cue for the cosmic drama of the ages!  I'm partially teasing, but we've probably all heard preaching at least once that seemed to take it that far.

willieH: Hi brother M... :hithere:

Quote from: martincisneros on June 17, 2008, 02:00:55 AMWillieH, I know about your suspicion of theological terms that aren't in the Bible, but do you think that the implications of what you're saying are pointing towards a full preterism, which some would call a realized eschatology?  'Cause that's the only potential criticism that I can foresee for everything that you've said here.  Do you still see Jesus Christ as literally, bodily returning one day to His restored Creation, even if it's not the Revelation 19 cosmic Rambo scenario?

My  :2c: ...

I see CHRIST's "coming" as the REVELATION of Himself which is ALREADY there in ALL...

If CHRIST is the same yesterday, today and forever... (which of course, He IS!) then He ALWAYS IS within each of us...

In other words, from the INSIDE--OUT, as opposed to from the OUTSIDE (heavens)--IN-TO the individual...

GOD shall open the TRUTH that JESUS CHRIST is IN ALL... and has been ALL ALONG...

Can we believe He has ever been driven from His "home" within us by something He created?  How can that even be considered?  :mshock:

We are His temple... the portions of His Body... which has one by one, toenail, by elbow, ...been given, over the course of TIME each in his own order... the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil... previously known only by the HEAD (heart) of GOD, and His WORD which proceeds from His Heart...  :dontknow:

If I have learned ONE premise which is CENTRAL, in the study and observation of Spiritual things, it is that the OUTER is that which is the REFLECTION, ...not the INNER...  :cloud9:

We are made in the IMAGE... of God... an IMAGE is a REFLECTION...

This NATURAL/physical environment is a REFLECTION of what is actually "REAL"...  :dontknow:

I see a reign OF LIFE associated with TODAY, as well as a reign OF DEATH associated with YESTERDAY... both being ONE DAY... and "as A THOUSAND YEARS" (twice).  :Peace2:

In the beginning God divided the light from the darkness, dividing ONE DAY into THE DAY (TODAY, when you hear His voice and harden not your heart... and pass from death unto life) and THE NIGHT (which is "as YESTERDAY" when is it past).

God has a covenant with both (the NIGHT and the DAY).. and is, therefore, the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER.  :happygrin:

I agree. TODAY is THE DAY of the Lord.  :dsunny:

And:

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

TODAY... when you hear His voice and harden not your heart.  :declare:

Then shall we be given right to partake of the Tree of Life and be seated with Christ in heavenly places, He having made us "kings and priests unto God" in the kingdom of the heavens.  :bowing:

Quote from: Chris on June 21, 2008, 12:38:54 AM
I see a reign OF LIFE associated with TODAY, as well as a reign OF DEATH associated with YESTERDAY... both being ONE DAY... and "as A THOUSAND YEARS" (twice).  :Peace2:

In the beginning God divided the light from the darkness, dividing ONE DAY into THE DAY (TODAY, when you hear His voice and harden not your heart... and pass from death unto life) and THE NIGHT (which is "as YESTERDAY" when is it past).

God has a covenant with both (the NIGHT and the DAY).. and is, therefore, the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER.  :happygrin:

I agree. TODAY is THE DAY of the Lord.  :dsunny:

And:

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

TODAY... when you hear His voice and harden not your heart.  :declare:

Then shall we be given right to partake of the Tree of Life and be seated with Christ in heavenly places, He having made us "kings and priests unto God" in the kingdom of the heavens.  :bowing:

Hi Chris..
Great post.... :icon_flower:

1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.


1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Seems the WRATH of God are for a certain Kind

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Eph 5:6  Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7  Be not ye therefore partakers with them.


Eph 5:8 ¶ For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Eph 5:9  (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)


Blessings
Taffy

 Hi PeaceTroll,

Quote from: PeacetrollWhat is the reason for the following scripture coming to pass?  Who are they going to reign over, and for what purpose?  What is the judgement given to them?  To what end?  Over whom?

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I'm interested in your response. This has been a most confusing area of bible research. I'm working on a paper right now but don't seem to have any hard answers.

One thing I suggest, Keep reading one more verse.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Since you claim to know who is alive during the thousand years, who is it? The ones a live appear to be "the souls beheaded for the witness of Jesus and who did not worshiped the beast"

Let's back up...

Rev 19:19  And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21  And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The remnant are slained, so who is still alive for this 1000 years beside the ones who did not take the mark of the beast?

So what are your ideas on this group of people who are alive in the 1000 year period of Rev 20:4?


Paul

1 Thessalonians 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is not the start of the tousand years, but is the robbing of the strong man's house, the fall of Babylon.  Jesus said;

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

As it was written;

Revelation 18:3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

The angel who has been acting as God here, referred to by Paul as he who lets, is being removed by the wrath of God, the Darkness, and both are distracted in that wonderful moment when takes us in the twinkling of an eye, like lightning, as a thief.
This will happen at exactly the time the Darkness, the wrath of God,  is driven out of heaven. He is distracted for the blink of an eye, while he overcomes his rebellious angel left in charge here. Leviathan.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Those who are not taken are the virgins who slept at the crucial time, and did not do as Jesus said below.

Mark 13: 33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

What happens to those who believe but do not watch?

Luke 12:45But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

What is his portion with the unbelievers?  To be left here in the full knowledge of what has happened with the others and where they are for the 42 year wedding celebration.

Micah 7:14Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel: let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old.

15According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things.

Isaiah 33:16He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

What are the spripes he will recieve?

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

When Jesus and the saints come to begin the thousand years, they rise and join the other saints in that thousand year harvest of the crop. Adamic man. The Elect do not return to the earth, but do as paul said.

2 Thessalonians 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:



From the time the millineum begins, all who ever existed who are not in Christ will be revived, beginning with the last, and progressing back to the first. They will be perfect bodily, but spiritually exactly as they were in this present life.  Revelations put it this way;

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

As Jesus said.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Each person of Adam, His breath, will live 100 years, but the sons of this world will continue on untill fire comes down from God and utterly destroys them, for they are purely carnal flesh and have no breath of life in them.

Isaiah 65:20
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old;  but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Quote from: willieH on June 17, 2008, 12:35:17 AM
willieH: Hello to all... :hithere:

PART TWO:

EXPLANATION...

I would like to first "zero in" on a portion of the previously noted ENGLISH DICTIONARY definition of "millennium", which I believe is VERY MISLEADING and an ADDITION (enlarged below) to what the "Bible" actually NOTES... (Let's see if you caught this as you read it in my previous post)...

Quotemillennium... 
   
Main Entry: mil·len·ni·um 
Pronunciation: \mə-ˈle-nē-əm\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mil·len·nia  \-nē-ə\ or mil·len·niums
Etymology: New Latin, from Latin mille thousand + New Latin -ennium (as in biennium)
Date: circa 1638
1 a: the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 during which holiness is to prevail and Christ is to reign on earth b: a period of great happiness or human perfection

This portion of definition is NOT NOTED in the "bible"... there is no indication that this period of CHRIST's "reign" to be a period of "GREAT HAPPINESS", nor "HUMAN PERFECTION"

The Bible simply says:

(Rev 20:4) ...they LIVED and REIGNED with CHRIST a thousand years... ...and,

(Rev 20:6) ...blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be PRIESTS of God and of CHRIST, and shall REIGN with Him a thousand years.

No mention of "PERFECTION", nor of "GREAT HAPPINESS"... so the ENGLISH DICTIONARY defintion above, has ADDED these assumptions to what the "Bible" actually notes...  :dontknow: (btw... WHO are they "REIGN-ING" ...over?  Who are they PRIESTS ...to?  What exactly IS a ...PRIEST?  :JCThink:  Seems to me that others are required by association, in the using of these terms.  :dontknow:)

1000 Years:

First consideration... the "1000" year period is written in a book of SYMBOLS... which makes the "1000" a SYMBOLIC number... (not literally a period of TIME which is 1000 years in duration)

Second consideration... the DAY of YHVH (Y'HoVaH) is where ALL the GENERATIONS of the HISTORY of MAN are found... (Gen 2:4) ...which "DAY" is NOW...

Third consideration... A "DAY" with YHVH is "AS" (like) a THOUSAND "YEARS"... but NOT, ...IS a THOUSAND "YEARS"...

In other words, TIME is irrelevant to the ETERNAL God who views its END from its BEGINNING... but the term "1000 years" IS relevant when considering SPIRITUAL REVELATION... for terms which relate to Him SYMBOLICALLY fall into the "AS" or a "SYMBOLIC / PARABOLIC" form...

Not to be LITERALLY understood... These terms are IMAGES of what actually is said...

The SPIRITUAL reality is ALIVE and PERFECTLY multi-dimensional... the NATURAL is DEAD, and FLAT, and when the SPIRITUAL is percieved incorrectly and incompletely it is observed as follows:

A PAINTING of the MEADOW (natural) is LITERALLY percieved to be the ACTUAL MEADOW (spiritual) which is PAINTED... (hope I'm not going to fast or becoming confusing... its hard to put into words, and admittedly I have not mastered the ability!  :mblush:)

Those who reign WITH CHRIST, do so in the DAY of YHVH... which is IS --- AS a thousand years, not IS a thousand years...

The "DAY" of the LORD is ...NOW! ...NOW is the JUDGMENT of this world, ...NOW is the "day" of Salvation... NOW is the prince of this world CAST OUT... NOW is the ACCEPTED TIME...

There is no LITERAL "1000" year period as peacetroll observes...  The SYMBOLISM for this "1000" years is NOW... ALL the GENERATIONS of MAN have been spent in "NOW"...

ALL LIFE takes place in NOW... not in the past, not in the future... NOW...

(Rev 20:2) "satan" is BOUND in the "DAY (thousand years) of YHVH... within the lives of those who are IN CHRIST... and who are PART of the FIRST RESURRECTION (which are FEW)... which REIGN, takes place IN THIS LIFETIME...

Those who are PART of the First Resurrection were CHOSEN to BE part of it... before the FOUNDATION of the WORLD... (Eph 2:10) 

"TIME" (future or past) does not limit or inhibit the REIGN of CHRIST within them, as it is a REIGN which is done within the DAY of YHVH... which is NOW...

The "DAY" of YHVH is NOW... and that "DAY" is amidst the life of each one IN CHRIST... but is found OUTSIDE (AFTER) the "DAY" in the MANY which is as the SAND of the SEA (Rev 20:8)

Those who are decieved (unable to see or behold CHRIST)... are found OUTSIDE or AFTER the DAY of YHVH... 

This may be hard to grasp... but here goes:

The word translated AFTER in Rev 20:3 is META... which in its definition proposes: amid or accompaniement... also: often used in composition in substancially the SAME relations of PARTICIPATION and PROXIMITY and transfer or SEQUENCE...

I see this passage as noting that DURING not AFTER the "DAY" of YHVH [NOW]... is the Adversary (satan) ...loosed a little season [TIME]... and "out of "it's prison" to deceive the nations which are in the 4 quarters (everywhere) of the earth (men) which are are numbered as the SAND of the SEA... (these being OUTSIDE those IN CHRIST)

Again... this is quite hard to put into words, please forgive my clumsiness...  :mblush:

LAKE OF FIRE...

What is this entity?  Most theologians and especially the VICTIMS of their teachings, subscribe to this being a PLACE of ETERNAL Torment...

I believe it to be NOW... CHRIST counseled us to buy (obtain) GOLD from Him which was TRIED in FIRE (Rev 3:18)... the TRIALS of CHRIST took place in the Human Form and Life that He lived IN TIME...

1. The DEVIL was CAST into this entity (LOF) (Rev 20:10)
2. DEATH and HELL (grave/Hades) were also CAST into this entity (Rev 20:14)
3. Whosoever was not written in the "book of LIFE" was also CAST into this entity (Rev 20:15)

THREE questions with the SAME ANSWER:

1. WHO has the DEVIL (satan) decieved?  ALL have sinned and come short of the GLORY of GOD...

2. HOW many of these found DEATH and the GRAVE?  ALL who have sinned and come short of the GLORY of GOD...

3. WHO have not been written in the "book of LIFE"?  ALL who have sinned and come short of the GLORY of GOD...

Please PRAY before reading this conclusion dear ones...  :Pray:

The "LAKE of FIRE", and the "1000 years" mentioned in the REVELATION (Revealing of JESUS CHRIST) are the DAY (Spiritual) of YHVH...

What is the NEW NAME? (Rev Rev 2:17 / 3:12)

The NEW NAME is  CHRIST...

ALL those IN CHRIST, are no longer "named" OUTSIDE CHRIST... they are MEMBERS of the BODY of CHRIST... which makes their NAME... CHRIST...

Don't know about you friends, but... My MEMBERS,  ... my "arms", "legs", "toenails" and HEAD... are ALL of and are RECOGNIZED, as having the SAME NAME...  :dontknow:

He that hath an EAR, let him hear what the SPIRIT saith unto the churches...  :icon_king:

pEace...

...willieH  :hihat:

he he Willie..whaT a crock. :thumbdown:

Nah,,JUST busting on ya Bro.... :laughing7:

Nicely put Dude,...and for mine, SPOT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hey bro, thanks for the reply on PM. my body physically is still one wreck,...and im  praying all comes well with you VERY, VERY SOON :icon_flower:

T

What ever,--I was answering the question put to me by Pierac, and I said what I said.  YOU have nothing to explain the thousand years, and there is no point to posting what cannot be understood by any who does not have the foundation of Christ.
Paul put it directly, he wanted to tell, and was not permitted to do it, his job was over.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

Ears to hear are few and far between.

Jeremiah 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

I have no more to post on the matter.  YOU have no rational explanation of the event at all.

willieH: Hi PT...  :icon_king:

Quote from: Peacetroll on June 14, 2008, 02:31:41 AM
I attempt to make you think and question what the scriptures say. There is an explanation of what that thousand years is for that is wonderfull.
I wondered if any of you had really looked into why there should be a thousand year reign of Christ and the Saints. Guess not. :2c:

Now that you're back... how about that "wonderful"?   :dontknow:

willieH: Hi PT...  :icon_king:

Quote from: Peacetroll on July 30, 2008, 05:09:04 AM
What ever,--I was answering the question put to me by Pierac, and I said what I said.  YOU have nothing to explain the thousand years, and there is no point to posting what cannot be understood by any who does not have the foundation of Christ.
Paul put it directly, he wanted to tell, and was not permitted to do it, his job was over.

Hebrews 6
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

Ears to hear are few and far between.

Jeremiah 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

I have no more to post on the matter.  YOU have no rational explanation of the event at all.

Which "YOU" are you addressing dusty?  :scratchhead:

quote =peacetroll

QuoteYOU have no rational explanation of the event at all.

Peacetroll by all means support your points by way of Scripture but DO NOT make comments like this again...your on a thin edge as it is .


Taffy

well I'm going to take it literally.  It's been 6000 years--6 days from the creation of Adam.

I fully expect the 1000 year reign to be a time of peace and rest in Christ.  For that to happen, evil will have to be taken out of the way.  Imagine how the human race would flower and thrive in a world without evil.

so on the seventh day he rested  from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.--Gen 3

I love the way Peacetroll calls Adam, "the breath of God."

yo willie

Quote(Rev 20:2) "satan" is BOUND in the "DAY (thousand years) of YHVH... within the lives of those who are IN CHRIST... and who are PART of the FIRST RESURRECTION (which are FEW)... which REIGN, takes place IN THIS LIFETIME...

more on this THOUSAND YRS Brud.

Christ is the DAY ..those in  HIM Called Children of The DAY...

the Day is spereated from the Night as Christ shows us
Jhn 11:9  Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Jhn 11:10  But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him

SEEMS to me Bud, that he seperates the Night from Day....I see it As those in darkness who do sleep in the night are still under the Ministry of Death Bro....we Move from Death to Life..

Those who sleep In the Night are those still bound By Law...1 Thes 5:3- 5:10

as we are told...A Thousand Years Is as a Day....the 1000yrs are symbolic...we can prove this looking else where

Consider this Bro

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though HE[/b] live a thousand years TWICE TOLD[/u], yet hath he seen no good: do not ALL go to ONE PLACE.
Why Twice Told?

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but  AS YESTERDAY WHEN IT HAS PAST :i AND as a WATCH in the NIGHT[/u][/b] (Night is called darkness in Genesis)

are we not told this as well

HE is the SAME Yesterday (was) To Day (is) and For ever (will be)

So what was this yesterday which has Past as a watch in the NIGHT...?

If a Thousand yrs was the 12 hrs Christ spoke of,then symbolically could this NiGHT BE THE SAME...im doing my best to explain here dude, Hope ya see where im coming from.

John speaks of a DARKNESS WHICH IS past AS WELL..the watch in the Night likened to the Night in Gen referred as DARKNESS

1Jo 2:8  Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth


You see Satan As I do Bro..so hoping you see this too

Rev 20:2 And he LAID HOLD on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and BOUND HIM a thousand years,


Satan (the devil) holds The power of death and darkness


Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light , and from the power of Satan unto God

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

The first to Reign IS DEATH (YESTERDAY= Thousand years). We pass from death unto life and are called children of THE DAY IS TO DAY (Reign IN LIFE =Thousand year reign).

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath REIGNED UNTO DEATH, even so MIGHT GRACE REIGN through righteousness UNTO ETERNAL LIFE by Jesus Christour Lord.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence DEATH REIGNED BY ONE; much more THEY WHICH RECEIVE abundance of GRACE and of the GIFT of righteousness SHALL REIGN IN LIFE by one, Jesus Christ


To conclude...The darkness is likened to the Shadow and schoolmaster which was YESTERDAY  which has past as a watch in the NIGHT,...we Now we  walk in the DAY( the new 1000ys) = Christ.
Both the Old and New Testify to HIM  which for mine makes more sense of this scrip bro

HE is the SAME Yesterday (was) To Day (is) and For ever(will be)

Blessings
Taffy

The wonderful thing is the thousand year explanation I gave you in answer to the question posed. As to the you I mean what rational explanation do you have for how these events are ordered, will happen and why, with scriptures. I could have used many more but I laid it out like a table of contents.
It is wonderful, because all will come back in their own order, from the last to the first, all will have the truth in front of their eyes, and there will not a thing of His be lost. Nothing not of Him will be saved.

Acts 3: 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.  

22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

As written in Job 34:12Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

13Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?

14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;  

15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.  

QuoteThe wonderful thing is the thousand year explanation I gave you in answer to the question posed. As to the you I mean what rational explanation do you have for how these events are ordered, will happen and why, with scriptures. I could have used many more but I laid it out like a table of contents.
It is wonderful, because all will come back in their own order, from the last to the first, all will have the truth in front of their eyes, and there will not a thing of His be lost. Nothing not of Him will be saved.

Acts 3: 20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.  



22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

As written in Job 34:12Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

13Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?

14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;  

15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.  

Your zeal is admired PT...

if you care to refute what willie has stated it then do it...but dont go on ignoring ...ya great for stating Dusty . a debate is two ways....

rufute what He stated on the resurrection and show the readers ...he gave you for mine,  what your YOU WERE asking, it may not be what you agree with tho...then refute what I proposed, scripture would be fine in adding to the 1000 yr reign..Now friend ill hold my breath . :icon_flower:

Have a nice day PT.

Peace bro...
Blessings
T

Willy gave his version of what the thousand years is and I gave mine. Scriptures were used and applied to explain. I believe what I posted, as I'm sure Willy believes what he posted. There is no point to debating either one point for point, because the points of belief are at polar opposites, and irreconcilable.
We'll know the truth at the Truths appearing, when every eye shall see Him clearly.

                                                                                                                   The grace of God to all who strive for truth.

willieH: Hi Brother G! :hithere:

I see this below as very interesting brother!  :happygrin:

Quote from: Taffy on July 30, 2008, 07:01:48 PM
yo willie

Quote from: willieH(Rev 20:2) "satan" is BOUND in the "DAY (thousand years) of YHVH... within the lives of those who are IN CHRIST... and who are PART of the FIRST RESURRECTION (which are FEW)... which REIGN, takes place IN THIS LIFETIME...

more on this THOUSAND YRS Brud.

Christ is the DAY ..those in  HIM Called Children of The DAY...

the Day is spereated from the Night as Christ shows us
Jhn 11:9  Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Jhn 11:10  But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him

SEEMS to me Bud, that he seperates the Night from Day....I see it As those in darkness who do sleep in the night are still under the Ministry of Death Bro....we Move from Death to Life..

Those who sleep In the Night are those still bound By Law...1 Thes 5:3- 5:10

as we are told...A Thousand Years Is as a Day....the 1000yrs are symbolic...we can prove this looking else where

Consider this Bro

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though HE[/b] live a thousand years TWICE TOLD[/u], yet hath he seen no good: do not ALL go to ONE PLACE.
Why Twice Told?

Psalm 90:4  For a thousand years in thy sight are but  AS YESTERDAY WHEN IT HAS PAST :i AND as a WATCH in the NIGHT[/u][/b] (Night is called darkness in Genesis)

are we not told this as well

HE is the SAME Yesterday (was) To Day (is) and For ever (will be)

So what was this yesterday which has Past as a watch in the NIGHT...?

If a Thousand yrs was the 12 hrs Christ spoke of,then symbolically could this NiGHT BE THE SAME...im doing my best to explain here dude, Hope ya see where im coming from.

John speaks of a DARKNESS WHICH IS past AS WELL..the watch in the Night likened to the Night in Gen referred as DARKNESS

1Jo 2:8  Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth


You see Satan As I do Bro..so hoping you see this too

Rev 20:2 And he LAID HOLD on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and BOUND HIM a thousand years,


Satan (the devil) holds The power of death and darkness


Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light , and from the power of Satan unto God

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son

The first to Reign IS DEATH (YESTERDAY= Thousand years). We pass from death unto life and are called children of THE DAY IS TO DAY (Reign IN LIFE =Thousand year reign).

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath REIGNED UNTO DEATH, even so MIGHT GRACE REIGN through righteousness UNTO ETERNAL LIFE by Jesus Christour Lord.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence DEATH REIGNED BY ONE; much more THEY WHICH RECEIVE abundance of GRACE and of the GIFT of righteousness SHALL REIGN IN LIFE by one, Jesus Christ


To conclude...The darkness is likened to the Shadow and schoolmaster which was YESTERDAY  which has past as a watch in the NIGHT,...we Now we  walk in the DAY( the new 1000ys) = Christ.
Both the Old and New Testify to HIM  which for mine makes more sense of this scrip bro

HE is the SAME Yesterday (was) To Day (is) and For ever(will be)

Blessings
Taffy

Very, VERY, interesting me bratha!  :icon_rr:

Are you saying "TWICE TOLD" ...is OLD & NEW Testaments?

In the NIGHT portion of the DAY of YHVH (Natural/OT/LAW) CHRIST is VEILED but still THERE ...for the OT Scriptures TESTIFY of HIM as He noted: (John 5:39), ...and

In the DAY portion of the DAY of YHVH (Spiritual/NT/GRACE) CHRIST is REVEALED... for the NT TESTIFIES of the REVELATION of HIM ...as IT notes that revelation! (John 15:26)... 

The SAME ...YESTERDAY (OT/law/veiled) TODAY (NT/GRACE/revealed) and FOREVER uniting ALL THINGS, ...IN HIM? (Col 1:20 / 1 Cor 15:28)

For the LAW is JUST and HOLY and GOOD (Rom 7:12) but by indicating SIN, it works in us, DEATH (Rom 7:13)...

But GRACE is the WAY into the KINGDOM as it provides TRUTH and LIFE, ...In the HEAVENLIES, ...where the LAW exists, not being "kept" but as FULFILLED in ALL which has been brought together by YHVH, ...IN CHRIST! (Matt 5:17)

willieH: Hi dusty... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on July 30, 2008, 08:56:17 PM
Willy gave his version of what the thousand years is and I gave mine. Scriptures were used and applied to explain. I believe what I posted, as I'm sure Willy believes what he posted. There is no point to debating either one point for point, because the points of belief are at polar opposites, and irreconcilable.
We'll know the truth at the Truths appearing, when every eye shall see Him clearly.

                                                                                                                   The grace of God to all who strive for truth.

This is true PT... but your presentation STILL rests in part upon UNBIBLICAL terms and references... and STILL, within its conclusion... relinquishes SOME of God's creation (non-"Adamic" according to you)... to DEFEAT, and (these) remain IN DEATH, and therefore DEATH remains FOREVER...   :thumbdown:

Holding that which YOU claim is other than offspring of Adam IN DEATH, and which "said unproven and unmentioned offspring", ...have no BIBLICAL foundation... (your claim that there exists on earth --- another "race" of Humans NOT of Adam, and which is NOT Biblically noted  :thumbdown:) 

And said version, remains CONTRARY to (1 Cor 15:54-55 / Col 1:20 / 1 Cor 15:22) to name just a FEW ...for if DEATH remains for ANY entity which GOD has created... then DEATH has NOT been "swallowed up in VICTORY"... Rather it REMAINS for those entities...  :thumbdown:

If you wish to let this set as is... that is fine with me, ...However the difference between our views, ...is that your version travels OUTSIDE Scripture to prove itself (using unBIBLICAL terms and references), ...whereas, ...mine (whether right or wrong) remains completely based IN the WORD...  :dontknow:

QuoteVery, VERY, interesting me bratha! 

Are you saying "TWICE TOLD" ...is OLD & NEW Testaments?

In the NIGHT portion of the DAY of YHVH (Natural/OT/LAW) CHRIST is VEILED but still THERE ...for the OT Scriptures TESTIFY of HIM as He noted: (John 5:39), ...and

In the DAY portion of the DAY of YHVH (Spiritual/NT/GRACE) CHRIST is REVEALED... for the NT TESTIFIES of the REVELATION of HIM ...as IT notes that revelation! (John 15:26)... 

The SAME ...YESTERDAY (OT/law/veiled) TODAY (NT/GRACE/revealed) and FOREVER uniting ALL THINGS, ...IN HIM? (Col 1:20 / 1 Cor 15:28)

For the LAW is JUST and HOLY and GOOD (Rom 7:12) but by indicating SIN, it works in us, DEATH (Rom 7:13)...

But GRACE is the WAY into the KINGDOM as it provides TRUTH and LIFE, ...In the HEAVENLIES, ...where the LAW exists, not being "kept" but as FULFILLED in ALL which has been brought together by YHVH, ...IN CHRIST! (Matt 5:17)

Hi Willie..ya about nailed it Brud :happy3: :happy3: :happy3:

Are you saying "TWICE TOLD" ...is OLD & NEW Testaments?stroke  both Covenants...

WOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO :bgdance: :bgdance: :bgdance:
Blessings G

1 I have seen another evil under the sun, and it weighs heavily on men: 2 God gives a man wealth, possessions and honor, so that he lacks nothing his heart desires, but God does not enable him to enjoy them, and a stranger enjoys them instead. This is meaningless, a grievous evil.

3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man- 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?

--Ecc 6



What is the 'another evil' he is talking about?  Isn't it the futility of life?  Isn't it death, and how death wipes out any meaning in life?  Rich or poor, fecund or barren, wise or fool: all sinks into the obscurity of death.  All go to the same place--the grave.   A stillborn child--a child who has never been born--is better off than the living.  Man's life, even though he live a thousand years twice told, is meaningless.



12 For who knows what is good for a man in life, during the few and meaningless days he passes through like a shadow? Who can tell him what will happen under the sun after he is gone?

--Ecc 6

Hi Molly

been a while since weve chatted...

QuoteWhat is the 'another evil' he is talking about?  Isn't it the futility of life?  Isn't it death, and how death wipes out any meaning in life?  Rich or poor, fecund or barren, wise or fool: all sinks into the obscurity of death.  All go to the same place--the grave.   A stillborn child--a child who has never been born--is better off than the living.  Man's life, even though he live a thousand years twice told, is meaningless.

Every thing UNDER the SON..old c, is pointless for the Flesh profits nothing,..DEATH INDEED awaits us ALL, Tis THE MINISTRY OF DEATH..

God apointes the TIME and the SEASONS...and its more than JUST the weather.

It all depends how one read whats UNDER the SON....That which is BELOW.to that which is above,

For mine scripture speaks a little here and a Little there...

Later Molly..Tis late in the uk

Blessings
T

6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

--Ecc 6

"thousand"

H505
אלף
'eleph
eh'-lef
Properly the same as H504; hence (an ox's head being the first letter of the alphabet, and this eventually used as a numeral) a thousand: - thousand.


The word for 'thousand' here is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet--eleph.  This is one of the names of God, the 'alpha' in Greek.  God gave Adam language, so language is a divine function.

Even if we live the same story a thousand years twice over--the eleph--the first half, nothing will change--because the alpha is only half of the story.  Man is still subjected to death and futility, and under the ministry of death.

The second part of the story is needed--the omega--to release man from the futility of bondage to the devil.


14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

--Hebrews 2



Thus we are not telling  the same story twice over, because God has done a new thing.



5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. --Rev 21



We are singing a new song--the song of the Lamb--



Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.



He is both halves of the story--the Alpha and the Omega--



6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. --Rev 21



Only through Christ does human life have meaning, because death is swallowed up in victory--



7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. --Rev 21



How I long for the reign of the Omega.



"Omega"

G5598
Ω
Ō
o'-meg-ah
The last letter of the Greek alphabet, that is, (figuratively)the finality: - Omega.

willieH: Hi Molly!  --  :icon_king:

Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2008, 02:15:19 AM
Thus we are not telling  the same story twice over, because God has done a new thing.

5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. --Rev 21

GOD is REVEALING what IS... JESUS CHRIST always IS, does NOT change...

NEW implies change from OLD...

YHVH GOD, nor JESUS CHRIST ever changes...

They are RESTORING to its ORIGINAL ETERNAL state, that which found CHANGE in TIME...

The "NEW" is the REVELATION of what was always THERE, and VEILED in the "OLD"...

It is not "NEW" in the sense of REMAKING [from infinite perspective]... it is NEW in the sense of REVEALING to those [finites] who have yet to SEE it...

What did Paul say Willy?

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

what is the future,doesn't exist now? The prophet declared it.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Peter backed him up. It is a new thing for there to be nothing but good.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

QuoteNEW implies change from OLD...

YHVH GOD, nor JESUS CHRIST ever changes...

He doesn't change but this predatory world does--


6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
       the leopard will lie down with the goat,
       the calf and the lion and the yearling  together;
       and a little child will lead them.

--Isa 11


And, we do, too--


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ....

--1 Cor 15

Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2008, 02:15:19 AM
6Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

--Ecc 6

"thousand"

H505
אלף
'eleph
eh'-lef
Properly the same as H504; hence (an ox's head being the first letter of the alphabet, and this eventually used as a numeral) a thousand: - thousand.


The word for 'thousand' here is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet--eleph.[/i]  This is one of the names of God, the 'alpha' in Greek.  God gave Adam language, so language is a divine function.

Even if we live the same story a thousand years twice over--the eleph--the first half, nothing will change--because the alpha is only half of the story.  Man is still subjected to death and futility, and under the ministry of death.

The second part of the story is needed--the omega--to release man from the futility of bondage to the devil.


14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

--Hebrews 2



Thus we are not telling  the same story twice over, because God has done a new thing.



5And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. --Rev 21



We are singing a new song--the song of the Lamb--



Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.



He is both halves of the story--the Alpha and the Omega--



6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. --Rev 21



Only through Christ does human life have meaning, because death is swallowed up in victory--



7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. --Rev 21



How I long for the reign of the Omega.



"Omega"

G5598
Ω
Ō
o'-meg-ah
The last letter of the Greek alphabet, that is, (figuratively)the finality: - Omega.

Thank you Molly, Thousand YRS twice Told..OLD is THE SHADOW of the NEW both bearing witness(takes two witnesess Molly to  substantiate THE TRUTH.

Jesus is the alpha and omega,( The Beginning and the END or in Hebrew, the Aleph and Tav).

Christ is the END of our faith.., then also the Beginning ...
Aleph being the first letter represents the birth of all things.
Tav (whose symbolic meaning is the cross) is the last letter and represents the completion of all things. Together they represent all the other letter in-between and through which God expressed his truth.
The word 'truth' in Hebrew is emet. It is comprised of three letters: aleph " mem " tav. As such it represents the alpha and omega (aleph " tav). The letter mem signifies water and is shaped like the womb. meaning, truth must flow and also birth that which is above. The word heaven (H.8064 sha-mayim) is founded on the Hebrew word for water (H.4325 mayim). The letter shin represents fire. So together, heaven rains down fire and water. The two things we are baptised in.

which for mine is what Willie is saying here..Theres Nothing NEW Under the SON, But all things are revealed,restoring that which was LOST ,THAT WHICH WAS lost BEHIND THE VEIL.


GOD is REVEALING what IS... JESUS CHRIST always IS, does NOT change...

NEW implies change from OLD...

YHVH GOD, nor JESUS CHRIST ever changes...

They are RESTORING to its ORIGINAL ETERNAL state, that which found CHANGE in TIME...

The "NEW" is the REVELATION of what was always THERE, and VEILED in the "OLD"...

It is not "NEW" in the sense of REMAKING [from infinite perspective]... it is NEW in the sense of REVEALING to those [finites] who have yet to SEE it...

Blessings
T

QuoteThey are RESTORING to its ORIGINAL ETERNAL state, that which found CHANGE in TIME...

Yes, a restoration to the eternal state that al Adam, 'God's breath,'  God-man, enjoyed in the garden, the first man to walk and talk with God.

But, there will be a difference, because Adam was lowered into futility, put outside the veil,  in hope--

And, this time, a new heaven and a new earth will not be populated by one or two but--

a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb.

--Rev 7


Jesus calls himself Adam's 'son,' [son of Adam].    Jesus also calls himself God's 'son.'   So who was Adam?

Can Adam, the son of God, be the father of Jesus?  Oh, these things get tricky when God is making himself a family.


Luke 1:32
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,



Luke 20
41Then Jesus said to them, "How is it that they say the Christ is the Son of David? 42David himself declares in the Book of Psalms:
   " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand
43until I make your enemies
      a footstool for your feet." ' 44David calls him 'Lord.' How then can he be his son?"

willieH: Hi PT...  :happygrin:

Quote from: Peacetroll on July 31, 2008, 04:58:32 AM
What did Paul say Willy?

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

EVIL is but a VEIL which withholds GOOD from being seen dusty...

When GOOD is REVEALED the VEIL no longer IS...

GOD never CHANGES... He remains CONSTANT, which is why we can be assured that His Words can be relied upon...

TIME is a realm in which CHANGE and EVIL are allowed to be manifest... ETERNITY is UNCHANGING yet animate... within the realm of LOVE and GOOD...

Nothing ever "wears out" in ETERNITY, nor does it progress from one thing to another... it remains what it IS... for what it IS, ...is already PERFECT, and anything PERFECT does not necessitate CHANGE... any CHANGE made to something PERFECT would render that PERFECT thing or entity, to become IMPERFECT...

That which is PERFECT, ...is COMPLETE...

Anything that is COMPLETE does not require anything MORE... and if anything COMPLETE is somehow altered, it can only move in a direction of negativity which would be, INCOMPLETE...

This is what THIS "PRESENT EVIL" classroom is all about bro... We are seeing and experiencing what happens to "PERFECT" which DESCENDS from that state, ...when TIME and EVIL are applied TO IT...

Quotewhat is the future,doesn't exist now? The prophet declared it.

The "future" is illusionary... for all that the "future" IS, ...is NOW which is yet to BE... there is no reality or EXISTENCE, found in the PAST or FUTURE... only in NOW does ANYTHING find an existence...

QuoteIsaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

The "NEW" as I previously noted, is not a "RECREATION" of the OLD... it is the REVELATION of what is NOT SEEN...

The NEW "Heaven" is the heart which is incorruptible, the NEW "Earth" is the body which is incorruptible because the HEART is RETURNED to its original state which is, ...incorruptible...

QuotePeter backed him up. It is a new thing for there to be nothing but good.

This observation is amiss (as I see it)... for to say "it is a new thing for there to be nothing but good",  implies that ETERNITY which PRECEEDED and shall SUCCEED ...Time... was in some way, NOT ..."nothing but good" and will NOT be "nothing but good" for ETERNITY has no origin (beginning) nor destiny (end)...

ETERNITY has ALWAYS BEEN, ..."nothing but good"... it has just remained VEILED to those who are IN TIME...

NOTHING but GOOD, ...always IS in ETERNITY dusty... It is just VEILED or UNSEEN by those of us amidst "TIME"...

If you were in a hermetically sealed "room" in darkness, ...with NO "light"... from your very beginning...

You would have no concept of the scenario which is OUTSIDE of that "room"... and  which is FILLED WITH LIGHT...

Because you have no concept of it, does not negate its existence... nor does it have to be "RECREATED" for YOU, just because you have not ever EXPERIENCED it, being separated FROM IT... 

For YOU "experiencing it"  would certainly be NEW to you... but in truth the scenario is not NEW, rather it IS as it has ALWAYS BEEN, which IS as it IS... what is "NEW" is the REVELATION ...of IT, ...to YOU...

Quote2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

It shall be NEW to us, because all we know is this DARK world... but the NEW Heaven and NEW Earth have ALWAYS BEEN to those in ETERNITY, ... they have just not been available to those of us IN TIME...

When we put on INCORRUPTION, it is not the INTRODUCTION of INCORRUPTION in ETERNITY,  ...it is the (re)introduction of INCORRUPTION to those who were IN TIME amidst CORRUPTION...

Those in ETERNITY have not been in CORRUPTION, rather have ALWAYS BEEN amidst INCORRUPTION...  INCORRUPTION is not NEW to them... and therefore is not a NEW thing...

It is only "NEW" to those who have yet to EXPERIENCE it...

You really don't have any idea what the thousand years is for or who it involves and why, do you?

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 03, 2008, 10:12:47 PM
You really don't have any idea what the thousand years is for or who it involves and why, do you?

Personally the Thousand yrs  as being symbolic has been explained rather well PT ?

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:


Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.


Isa 65:17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

seems our Lord will Kill Infants who reach a Hundred come your Kingdom Bud.....care to expound Some


Isa 65:20 ¶ There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed



Blessings
Taffy

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 03, 2008, 10:12:47 PM
You really don't have any idea what the thousand years is for or who it involves and why, do you?

I would like to hear your interpretation of it as literal--if that's what it is, because I always like to read the Bible literally at first.  I think the Bible contains both the literal and the spiritual, and finally merges both.

Quote from: Molly on August 03, 2008, 10:46:54 PM

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 03, 2008, 10:12:47 PM
You really don't have any idea what the thousand years is for or who it involves and why, do you?

I would like to hear your interpretation of it as literal--if that's what it is, because I always like to read the Bible literally at first.  I think the Bible contains both the literal and the spiritual, and finally merges both.

Me too Molly..maybe PT can explain this written In Iss...its all about the NEW Heavens and NEW earth..but pt PLEASE DONT FORGET the Bolded because in the Literal Theres going to Be many an Infant who Dies at 100YRS OLD.now aint that an Oxymoron... :icon_flower:

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:


Isa 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.


Isa 65:17  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

seems our Lord will Kill Infants who reach a Hundred come your Kingdom Bud.....care to expound Some


Isa 65:20  There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed

Blessings

 I'll just start here and give  you a short explanation of what I believe these verses tell us. I won't argue about these verse, we all will believe what Jesus gives us to believe.

Isaiah 65:18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.  

This Jerusalem is the city that Jesus will rule the world from with a rod of iron, and her people are the saints of God, who are filled with the Spirit of Christ without measure. [Remember what God said of this?Malachi 3:18
Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.]


19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Then all who ever were born on the earth will be brought back in their own order, from the last to the first.  There will be no babies born, because the crop and the tares are in the time of the harvest given in the parables.
The truth will be shouted from the housetops, there will no longer be any excuse for rejecting Jesus, for not loving Him with all your might.Then the wheat will die in the Lord at 100 years, and  rest from their labor with the Elect.[The good die young, and none taketh it to heart]
The sinner, those who still reject the Lord in their hearts, will live on accursed. Accursed because they are being bundled together for their destruction.

21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

The work of their hands is the harvesting, the converting of all the sons of Adam, who were dead, and are being made alive by faith, as they come to know, trust, and love Jesus Christ. 

23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

As enoch wrote, all the varios human groups likened to animals before they are converted will come to the Lord together. The carnal people who can not convert being only flesh without the Spirit, are left to wait for that old serpent.

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is another way of saying this.

Nahum 1: 9What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

10For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

11There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

12Thus saith the LORD; Though they be quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

13For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder.

14And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

15Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Quote
I'll just start here and give  you a short explanation of what I believe these verses tell us. I won't argue about these verse, we all will believe what Jesus gives us to believe.

Isaiah 65:18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.  

This Jerusalem is the city that Jesus will rule the world from with a rod of iron, and her people are the saints of God, who are filled with the Spirit of Christ without measure. [Remember what God said of this?Malachi 3:18
Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.]


19And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Then all who ever were born on the earth will be brought back in their own order, from the last to the first.  There will be no babies born, because the crop and the tares are in the time of the harvest given in the parables.
The truth will be shouted from the housetops, there will no longer be any excuse for rejecting Jesus, for not loving Him with all your might.Then the wheat will die in the Lord at 100 years, and  rest from their labor with the Elect.[The good die young, and none taketh it to heart]
The sinner, those who still reject the Lord in their hearts, will live on accursed. Accursed because they are being bundled together for their destruction.

21And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

The work of their hands is the harvesting, the converting of all the sons of Adam, who were dead, and are being made alive by faith, as they come to know, trust, and love Jesus Christ. 

23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

24And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

25The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

As enoch wrote, all the varios human groups likened to animals before they are converted will come to the Lord together. The carnal people who can not convert being only flesh without the Spirit, are left to wait for that old serpent.

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Here is another way of saying this.

Nahum 1: 9What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

10For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

11There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.

12Thus saith the LORD; Though they be quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.

13For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder.

14And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.

15Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

Yo Brother PT.

Seeing after the flesh, by that One means OUTWARDLY is Not how I perceive whats Written  in Iss , this speaks too and of ,the Inner man Being Created in His Likeness Bro :icon_flower:

The New Heavens and Earth are as WH described...Heaven being our MINDS\HEART and the Earth that of a NEW body.

the new Names given to His( servants  are likened to Nepios Gal 4:1)IS HIS....

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it].

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name


you quoted this verse...

Isaiah 65:18But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.  

Notice the WORD RE-....we come back Home bro..the Word JOY means Christ..Hes hidden everywhere Bud...hes CALLED GREAT JOY....

the old BEARS YESTIMONY to the NEW but its HIDDEN, veiled.....as some have said on numerous occasions Bro :icon_flower:
Judgement I believe COMES from the North


Psa 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, [is] mount Zion, [on] the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

2Ch 30:26 So there was great joy in Jerusalem: for since the time of Solomon the son of David king of Israel [there was] not the like in Jerusalem.

Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
there plenty more which Testify to me that HE IS THIS JOY in our hearts

Luk 24:52 And they worshipped ((( IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH =CHRIST))))))him, and """""""""""""""returned""""""""""""""""""""2  to Jerusalem with great joy:

Bro for mine its ALWAYS the natural which comes First , then the Spiritual..

As for NEW Jerusalem.. HIS are NEW JERUSALEM bro...you must have rad many threads which share this,,if ya not read it then ill happilly point out the Scrips

IT ALL SPEAKS AFTER THE inner man BRO FOR MINE

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

new jerusalem IS NOW BRO..tis not a future event

Tis allegory

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

If we be lieve what Scriture says NEW JERUSALEM is Now....then Salavation Too IS NOW..

Brud , these be the Scrips, not My words Bro

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. 

2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.) 


Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

when Is NOW bro..?

anyways time for sleepies......see God willing the Morrow...

Blessings


 

willieH: Hi PT...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 03, 2008, 10:12:47 PM
You really don't have any idea what the thousand years is for or who it involves and why, do you?

I have already given an EXTENSIVE take in THIS THREAD about the SYMBOLIC  notation of the "thousand years" found in the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

You take this period to be a LITERAL portion of TIME... I see that as an ERRONEOUS view... I shall leave YOU to the futile chase of this MIRAGE brother dustprophet,  which finds you percieving the SYMBOLIC, as "LITERAL"...

1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

QuoteIf we be lieve what Scriture says NEW JERUSALEM is Now....then Salavation Too IS NOW..

Brud , these be the Scrips, not My words Bro

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now [it is] high time to awake out of sleep: for now [is] our salvation nearer than when we believed. 

2Cr 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.) 


Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

when Is NOW bro..?

If now is the time of our salvation, (and I agree with you, because I know for myself it is now), then when is it for all those who reject the living God?  Not now?

And, if the New Jerusalem is now--where is it?  Inside a few of the chosen?  Then, what about the others for whom it is not now?

 This is a great thead  :happy3:

  I am listening and  with the different views  makes me think  :thumbsup: i believe these types of threads are where i can learn the most !
  thanks to all whom have contributed     :cloud9:
peace  rose

Quote20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Then all who ever were born on the earth will be brought back in their own order, from the last to the first.  There will be no babies born, because the crop and the tares are in the time of the harvest given in the parables.
The truth will be shouted from the housetops, there will no longer be any excuse for rejecting Jesus, for not loving Him with all your might.Then the wheat will die in the Lord at 100 years, and  rest from their labor with the Elect.[The good die young, and none taketh it to heart]
The sinner, those who still reject the Lord in their hearts, will live on accursed. Accursed because they are being bundled together for their destruction.

No Babies BORN PT.... THEN what are offspring?

23They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

It matters not PT.

Quote
20There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed[/b].

In this KINGDOM there shall be NO MORE infants of DAYS?WE SEE AFTER THE SPIRIT PT, not the flesh.

Infants are likened to Babes( Nepios) as those under law or those who return Under it, Its these infants who will not be in the Kingdom , For Flesh and spirit do not mix....we move from a Child\servant\babe as one under LAW to a SON of FAITH.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; 
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 

1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

Hsa 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up

Job 3:16 Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants [which] never saw light. 

but are these infants forsaken

Isa 49:14  But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.


Isa 49:15  Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.


THERE WILL BE NO MORE INFANTS OR BABES OR SERVANTS, :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

nor an old man that( hath not filled= """mä·lā'"""" fulfil, accomplish, complete) his days:

We Know the OLD MAN has to die for thee FLESH to live, Moses( law) died at I2O, A DIVINE PROBATION, he did NOT cross the RIVER Jordan .flesh is given to die at 120...the fulfillment of his DAYS

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 

for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed

The Child dies at 100 yrs.....WHY?....again we move froma babe\child\servant unto a SON of FAITH..the Child dies so the son is BORN.

The son of Faith is issac  GIVEN to Abraham at 100 yrs..for a CHILD IS BORN and son is Given...as Christ Himself BORN a Child under LAW.

The sinner is One being a Hundred and does NOT die( refuses Christ) for that which is NOT OF FAITH IS SIN.

anyways PT....Thats me done too on this thread for now at least. :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

 The ofspring ar those who are gathered in Christ. Jerusalem from above is the bride of Christ. What is a marriage for? To produce ofspring, or it is pointless.

Revelation 22:16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.  

Isaiah put the same thing this way.

Isaiah 55
1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

This offer will be made to every one who ever lived during that thousand years. Christ was the first fruits, the first Man , which is in heaven, then we who believe and are in Him at His coming, and then the full harvest during that 1000 years, accomplished by the Spirit, God our Savior, and the Bride, the saints.

Laren, who must reign?

1 Corinthians 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The teachings of Paul are Purposely obtruce and are as always in parable form, so that there might be an Elect taken out of the gentiles, His witnesses, the first ofspring, the guests at the wedding.
You posted the cut from the scriptures posted above which simply states that He will reign forever, that the whole of His creation is returned to God as He intended it to be.
The scriptures cannot be broken.

Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.  

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Remember, Jesus came out of the Father, and returned to the Father? He and the Father are one.  He is the Rock of ages.

Daniel 2:45
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands,  and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 04, 2008, 06:18:18 PM
The ofspring ar those who are gathered in Christ. Jerusalem from above is the bride of Christ. What is a marriage for? To produce ofspring, or it is pointless.

Revelation 22:16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.  

Isaiah put the same thing this way.

Isaiah 55
1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

This offer will be made to every one who ever lived during that thousand years. Christ was the first fruits, the first Man , which is in heaven, then we who believe and are in Him at His coming, and then the full harvest during that 1000 years, accomplished by the Spirit, God our Savior, and the Bride, the saints.

Laren, who must reign?

1 Corinthians 15:24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The teachings of Paul are Purposely obtruce and are as always in parable form, so that there might be an Elect taken out of the gentiles, His witnesses, the first ofspring, the guests at the wedding.
You posted the cut from the scriptures posted above which simply states that He will reign forever, that the whole of His creation is returned to God as He intended it to be.
The scriptures cannot be broken.

Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.  

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Remember, Jesus came out of the Father, and returned to the Father? He and the Father are one.  He is the Rock of ages.

Daniel 2:45
Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands,  and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 


Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. 


Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 



Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 




Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.



the "1000" year reign, imo; is through the "head and body" and the purpose is to put all enemies under his feet, with death being the last thing to be destroyed. 


25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 Who is subdueing the enemies? Jesus and the Father are one.

Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Don't you understand who Jesus is? There is only ONE God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in who's name you must be babtised, or imersed in, Jesus Christ. God is the Holy Spirit, who came into this world in flesh, to redeem us, and walk and talk and be with we who are powerless against all else that is called God.

1 Corinthians 8:5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Romans 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Hebrews 7:2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 04, 2008, 08:37:11 PM
Who is subdueing the enemies? Jesus and the Father are one.

Psalm 110
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Don't you understand who Jesus is? There is only ONE God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in who's name you must be babtised, or imersed in, Jesus Christ. God is the Holy Spirit, who came into this world in flesh, to redeem us, and walk and talk and be with we who are powerless against all else that is called God.

1 Corinthians 8:5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Romans 11:36
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Hebrews 7:2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus


Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: 

PT

Back to basics if you will PT,..Do you not know the Book of REVELATION """"""""""IS """""""""""""""""""""" SYMBOLIC

AS is, a Thousand Years as Noted being the same... ,being somewhat  explained in this thread

A DAY is""""""""""""""""""AS""""""""""""  a thousand YEARS, the same mentioned  in Revelation..

JUST what does signified mean?..how plain does this have to BE :icon_flower:.

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:


But you persist to state this is something other than Signified.....and you Bro,  propose that others havent an Idea what they speak of?........ but,This IS what scripture says, if you see it otherwise then it aint scripture ,tis your WORDS and your words ALONE..... :icon_flower:

if ya aint on BASE....then ya lost from the Start.

Blessings
Taffy

I'm not sure I would agree the whole book of Revelation is symbolic.

Some things are clearly literally symbolic, like 666.

But, other things like plagues happen in real life.

Do you think John was really taken up to the throne of God?  Did he really see those things?

Or is the throne of God just symbolic for something else?

Will God really wipe away all our tears?  Or is that just symbolism?

Jesus "signified" the book just means he put his signature to the testimony, meaning it is a true witness.

Revelation sealed the prophets.  There is nothing given in similtudes that is not given by one of the prophets somewhere else in a different similtude. Everything is in the form of similtudes and parables, with a little point being bluntly given.

Hosea 12:9And I that am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt will yet make thee to dwell in tabernacles, as in the days of the solemn feast.

10I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets

45Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

46Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;

47And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

48And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

49Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?

As Jesus declared of the matter.

Matthew 13:12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2008, 11:08:29 PM
I'm not sure I would agree the whole book of Revelation is symbolic.

Some things are clearly literally symbolic, like 666.

But, other things like plagues happen in real life.

Do you think John was really taken up to the throne of God?  Did he really see those things?

Or is the throne of God just symbolic for something else?

Will God really wipe away all our tears?  Or is that just symbolism?

Jesus "signified" the book just means he put his signature to the testimony, meaning it is a true witness.

No molly..if we are told its signified then Indeed its signified.

whres the THRONE OF GOD molly..go search..come back and tell me....,?

That which is signified starts in verse TWELVE...

as for tears..yep  symbolic as is sorrows....Just wrote on this yesterday..oppossed to bringing it into this post..ill add it later ... :icon_flower:..then go search the scrips and then tell me otherwise,,ok.

To MAKE Known in symbols ...doesnt indicate HIS SIGNITURE MOLLY.

Blessings Taffy

Hey PT..just answer the question...Pray dont tell me what One already KNOWS BRo...

Revelation sealed the prophets.  There is nothing given in similtudes that is not given by one of the prophets somewhere else in a different similtude. Everything is in the form of similtudes and parables, with a little point being bluntly given.////

of course UNLESS its Paul who speaks....we should watch for that fella...

ItS not washing PT....just re- read the last post....ya off base Dude,...thats it :icon_flower:.

Ya not alien in these parts for not answering , been noted many times...ya just evade what been given by others who see things different to you...personaly I admire willie and others for their persistance in discussing with you, while its been noted many dont even Now Bother.......

Time for mine to do likewise. :sigh:

Blessings Bro

TAFFY
:icon_flower:

QuoteNo molly..if we are told its signified then Indeed its signified.

I'm not sure what you think 'signified' means.

Do you think that means symbolic?



Verb: signify  'signu`fI

Denote or connote
- mean, intend, stand for

Convey or express a meaning
"What does his strange behaviour signify?"

Make known with a word or signal
"He signified his wish to pay the bill for our meal"



"signified"

G4591
σημαίνω
sēmainō
say-mah'ee-no
From σῆμα sēma (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

Quote from: Molly on August 04, 2008, 11:49:59 PM

QuoteNo molly..if we are told its signified then Indeed its signified.

I'm not sure what you think 'signified' means.

Do you think that means symbolic?



Verb: signify  'signu`fI

Denote or connote
- mean, intend, stand for

Convey or express a meaning
"What does his strange behaviour signify?"

Make known with a word or signal
"He signified his wish to pay the bill for our meal"



"signified"

G4591
σημαίνω
sēmainō
say-mah'ee-no
From σῆμα sēma (a mark; of uncertain derivation); to indicate: - signify.

Not only MOLLY...To SIGN-------IFY TO MAKE known BY USE OF SIGNS...BEING SYMBOLS

1) to give a sign, to signify, indicate

2) to make known

 I am not the leased offended  that you don't get it, and it doesn't 'wash'. As paul said once,

Galatians 4:12
Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.

I just cast the scriptures out there, hoping they find good ground, and  they fall where they will.

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 05, 2008, 12:04:59 AM
I am not the leased offended  that you don't get it, and it doesn't 'wash'. As paul said once,

Galatians 4:12
Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.

I just cast the scriptures out there, hoping they find good ground, and  they fall where they will.

Me niether Bro,, :icon_flower:but again you evade  whats been proposed.

TRY again...Signified,.. :icon_flower:  .we dont move an INCH till you address this..OK..play time is OVER...or else what you state  is  from a False premise  ,therefore ,its just PT air :icon_flower:   ......not scripture based..and please Bro dont be offended by me if any... if any let it be the scrips :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

Bottom line:  I'm looking forward to the reign of Christ and his saints here on earth.

It's clearly not here yet.

I'm not looking forward to something symbolic.

I'm looking forward to something literal.

However much Christ might be in my life personally, I am waiting for him to be everywhere.

I need him to be everywhere.  I want to see him fully realized in every person I meet.

Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2008, 12:14:26 AM
Bottom line:  I'm looking forward to the reign of Christ and his saints here on earth.

It's clearly not here yet.

I'm not looking forward to something symbolic.

I'm looking forward to something literal.

However much Christ might be in my life personally, I am waiting for him to be everywhere.

I need him to be everywhere.  I want to see him fully realized in every person I meet.

I take that as a retraction Molly... :icon_flower:

Literal is not the right word when comparing that which is symbolic altho I use it likewise....Cany find a word to clarify, maybe some one will explain in better terminology.. :icon_flower: but I understand ya drift :icon_flower:

and for the latter of your post..AMEN :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:  :icon_flower:

Blessins Molly
Taffy

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2008, 12:14:26 AM
Bottom line:  I'm looking forward to the reign of Christ and his saints here on earth.

It's clearly not here yet.

It's NOT????????????? CHRIST is not IN YOU... "reigning", Molly?

QuoteI'm not looking forward to something symbolic.

I'm looking forward to something literal.

Why are you looking FORWARD?  And WHY literal?  :dontknow:

The JEWS are still looking forward to the LITERAL coming of the Savior - eh? 

QuoteHowever much Christ might be in my life personally, I am waiting for him to be everywhere.

He IS everywhere Molly... He is just not yet (in time), REVEALED in all things... in which HE IS...

QuoteI need him to be everywhere.  I want to see him fully realized in every person I meet.

All look to the day of Redemption of ALL Molly when He shall be fully realized in EVERY person... you must wait (as must the rest of us) for this COMPLETION to occur in the FULLNESS of TIME...  :dontknow:

It is called the PATIENCE of the SAINTS... sis...  :cloud9:

QuoteIt's NOT????????????? CHRIST is not IN YOU, reigning Molly?

Christ might be reigning in me, but satan still rules the world.

willieH: Hi Molly...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2008, 12:49:48 AM

QuoteIt's NOT????????????? CHRIST is not IN YOU, reigning Molly?

Christ might be reigning in me, but satan still rules the world.

Maybe I'm missing something, ...but what does the WORLD have to do with CHRIST's "reign" during the 1000yrs?

In your "millenium" (hate that unbiblical term  :faint:) er - Thousand years "observation"... where does it say the WORLD is "ruled and reigned" over?

Symbols mean something, they are not used to signify some mystical or non occurance. Everything symbolized is backed up by other scriptures which will interpet what is symbolized or it is a false symbol. There are always two or three witnesses of each event symbolized.  The point of there being prophets.
Using symbols means using similitudes of a thing or event. The scriptures are full of symbols, and they stand for something, but not all things in the scriptures are symbolic. Was the flood symbolic, was the temple thrown down, or wasn't Christ crucifed just as David prophesied, to the letter?

As for Christ not reigning in the world Willy,

Psalm 2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

   

Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 05, 2008, 01:26:23 AM
Symbols mean something, they are not used to signify some mystical or non occurance. Everything symbolized is backed up by other scriptures which will interpet what is symbolized or it is a false symbol. There are always two or three witnesses of each event symbolized.  The point of there being prophets.
Using symbols means using similitudes of a thing or event. The scriptures are full of symbols, and they stand for something, but not all things in the scriptures are symbolic. Was the flood symbolic, was the temple thrown down, or wasn't Christ crucifed just as David prophesied, to the letter?

As for Christ not reigning in the world Willy,

Psalm 2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

   

Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

PT..I ahve better understanding in our Four children..stop the yaddda..back to basics or we move no Further..play time IS OVER...get it

Thanks Bro

try harder if you will...
:icon_flower:

 You are free to be as esoteric and mystical as you wish. Best of luck at it. What is true is true, and can't be changed.  :laughing7:

Quote from: willieH on August 05, 2008, 01:12:22 AM
willieH: Hi Molly...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2008, 12:49:48 AM

QuoteIt's NOT????????????? CHRIST is not IN YOU, reigning Molly?

Christ might be reigning in me, but satan still rules the world.

Maybe I'm missing something, ...but what does the WORLD have to do with CHRIST's "reign" during the 1000yrs?

In your "millenium" (hate that unbiblical term  :faint:) er - Thousand years "observation"... where does it say the WORLD is "ruled and reigned" over?

Peace...

...willieH  :icon_king:

Because this is what I believe.  Prophecy--the whole Bible is prophecy of this.  Satan is playing hard scrabble with God, trying to beat God to the punch with his one world government, rule by [unjust] law, cameras and spies everywhere, murdering those who will not comply.  Satan is building the seat of his government in David's city because that is where prophecy says it will be.  Satan wants to call himself the Messiah, telling even the world's Christians that the Messiah has not yet come.

So we look to the prophecy, and unlike the rest of the world, we look to the Christ to fulfill it.  And, the meek will inherit the earth.

Rev 2

26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
      he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

willieH: Hi dustprophet... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 05, 2008, 01:26:23 AM
As for Christ not reigning in the world Willy,

Try reading posts once in a while, dustprophet...

I did NOT say CHRIST's reign was not IN the world...   I said: what does His reign have to DO with the WORLD?  ............HERE:

Quote from: willieHMaybe I'm missing something, ...but what does the WORLD have to do with CHRIST's "reign" during the 1000yrs?

And I said:  where does it say He reigned OVER the WORLD? ............HERE:

Quote from: willieHIn your "millenium" (hate that unbiblical term  ) er - Thousand years "observation"... where does it say the WORLD is "ruled and reigned" over?

Quote from: peacetrollPsalm 2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain  

Psalm 2
1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

What do you think the Holy Hill of Zion is dusty?  Some mountain in Tibet?  Foothills in California?

YOU are the Holy Hill... I am the Holy Hill... WE are the TEMPLE of GOD, not the WORLD...

GOD reigns IN HIS TEMPLE... Those still in the World are yet to become that TEMPLE... and are therefore OUTSIDE His "reign"... which IS MY POINT...

The Scriptures which mention the "1000yr" (symbolic) period in Revelation, do not mention that the REIGNING that CHRIST is actively doing... has anything to do with "the WORLD" (in this 1000yr symbolic period)...

Quote from: peacetroll7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

You are immersed in FEAR... go shake and tremble somewhere else dusty...

I want no part of your FEAR, nor of your unbiblical claims... both of which, emerge from the gates of Babylon...

This set of verses does not explain the 1000yr reign of CHRIST spoken of in the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST, ...which is SYMBOLIC...

And the REIGN of CHRIST in ANY instance is not OVER people OUTSIDE Him (veiled), it is over People INSIDE Him (revealed)...

The WORLD, until it is reconciled remains OUTSIDE Him (veiled) AND His rulership... and the ETERNAL state  of them (the world) INSIDE of HIM (revealed), ...is yet to be REVEALED...

Revelation happens from the INSIDE -- OUT, not in the reverse as you seem to  percieve.  :mshock:

The prophecy of the Christ carrying the government on his shoulders:


Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


His throne will be the throne of David--



31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

--Luke 1



At the beginning of the thousand year reign, Satan is locked up so that he will no longer deceive 'the nations,' the whole world--

This is not talking about an individual, it is talking about the nations of the world, and right now satan deceives the whole world.



Rev 20


1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.



The disciples knew the kingdom was going to be restored to Israel because they ask Christ about it--



6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

--Acts 6



They knew because of prophecy--



1Kings 9

5Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

1Kings 2

45And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.

Psalm 132

11The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.



This is why those looking for the Messiah were calling him the son of David--



Matthew 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matthew 9:27
And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

Matthew 12:23
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

MOLLY... You did NOT answer my questions with this reply...  Instead you have fallen further into the trap of FALLACIES preached by Babylonian Christianity which has LEFT her first LOVE (truth), for LIES...

Quote from: willieH on August 05, 2008, 01:12:22 AM
willieH: Hi Molly...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Molly on August 05, 2008, 12:49:48 AM

QuoteIt's NOT????????????? CHRIST is not IN YOU, reigning Molly?

Christ might be reigning in me, but satan still rules the world.

Maybe I'm missing something, ...but what does the WORLD have to do with CHRIST's "reign" during the 1000yrs?

In your "millenium" (hate that unbiblical term  :faint:) er - Thousand years "observation"... where does it say the WORLD is "ruled and reigned" over?

Peace...

...willieH  :icon_king:

Quote from: MollyBecause this is what I believe.

Believe?  Believe what?

It does not SAY these things (that CHRIST reigns over the world), and yet you BELIEVE this to be, anyway? 

Quote from: MollyProphecy--the whole Bible is prophecy of this.  Satan is playing hard scrabble with God, trying to beat God to the punch with his one world government, rule by [unjust] law, cameras and spies everywhere, murdering those who will not comply.  Satan is building the seat of his government in David's city because that is where prophecy says it will be.  Satan wants to call himself the Messiah, telling even the world's Christians that the Messiah has not yet come.

The church with the HELP of the WORLD, actively builds this EXTREME FEAR campaign, with "satan" as a being, building an empire with the WORLD as his throne, and then erects "itself" as Messiah, ...which murders those who dont COMPLY, PLEASE! 

This complex web of DECIET is woven with such BABYLONIAN complexity that it is virtually impossible to name all intricate facets of it... devised in part, by those who purport to carry the GOSPEL as their message, all the while delivering DISPAIR and ANGUISH to the majority of humanity in the name of GOD...

You are thereby entirely unable to see within this misleading fog, the SIMPLICITY of what "satan" actually IS...

Satan is a creation of MYTHOLOGY, and is not even a BEING... but between the trio of HALLOWEEN, (Babylonian) CHRISTIANITY and PAGANISM, has erected this "Pointed tailed, two horned, pitch fork totin', --- Red guy to be a King of this world...

The SIMPLE TRUTH is:  "satan" is nothing but the ADVERSITY within Humanity which is actively, on a DAILY  BASIS... building this MYTH into a larger and more confused and complex entity... breathing LIFE into it with their FAITH... instead of denouncing the FAKE and FALSE premise that it is...

Quote from: MollySo we look to the prophecy, and unlike the rest of the world, we look to the Christ to fulfill it.  And, the meek will inherit the earth.

Rev 2

26To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27'He will rule them with an iron scepter;
      he will dash them to pieces like pottery'— just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give him the morning star. 29He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

You don't even SEE, that CHRIST is He that OVERCAME the WORLD... and IN His followers, is that OVERCOMING realized BY HIM, ...withIN His followers...

We do not OVERCOME... we SUBMIT to the ONE that has already OVERCOME...  :mshock:

QuoteThe church with the HELP of the WORLD, actively builds this EXTREME FEAR campaign, with "satan" as a being, building an empire with the WORLD as his throne, and then erects "itself" as Messiah, ...which murders those who dont COMPLY, PLEASE! 

It is what it is.  Look around you.  Cameras going up on your street corner, yet?

Who gave anyone permission to kill babies and their mothers?  Not me.

That is satan.  Disregard it if you want.  But that won't make it go away.

Exactly, and there is no point to argueing with those who have no ears to hear, and disregard the testimony of Jesus Christ. What did He say in His parables about all these things?

6With trumpets and the sound of the horn make a joyful noise before the King, the Lord!

    7Let the sea roar, and all that fills it, the world, and those who dwell in it!

    8Let the rivers clap their hands; together let the hills sing for joy

    9Before the Lord, for He is coming to judge [and rule] the earth; with righteousness will He judge [and rule] the world, and the peoples with equity.

--Psalm 98, Amplified Bible

 Isa 2

2It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be [firmly] established as the highest of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow to it.

    3And many people shall come and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us His ways and that we may walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law and instruction, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

    4And He shall judge between the nations and shall decide [disputes] for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.



Isa 11

1AND THERE shall come forth a Shoot out of the stock of Jesse [David's father], and a Branch out of his roots shall grow and bear fruit.

    2And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him--the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord--

    3And shall make Him of quick understanding, and His delight shall be in the reverential and obedient fear of the Lord. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, neither decide by the hearing of His ears;

    4But with righteousness and justice shall He judge the poor and decide with fairness for the meek, the poor, and the downtrodden of the earth; and He shall smite the earth and the oppressor with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

    5And righteousness shall be the girdle of His waist and faithfulness the girdle of His loins.

    6And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion and the fatted domestic animal together; and a little child shall lead them.

    7And the cow and the bear shall feed side by side, their young shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

    8And the sucking child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.

    9They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.



Micah 4

1BUT IN the latter days it shall come to pass that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains; and it shall be exalted above the hills, and peoples shall flow to it.

    2And many nations shall come and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that He may teach us His ways, and we may walk in His paths. For the law shall go forth out of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

    3And He shall judge between many peoples and shall decide for strong nations afar off, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    4But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and none shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the Lord of hosts has spoken it.

    5For all the peoples [now] walk every man in the name of his god, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God forever and ever.

    6In that day, says the Lord, I will assemble the lame, and I will gather those who have been driven away and those whom I have afflicted.

    7And I will make the lame a remnant, and those who were cast off a strong nation; and the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from this time forth and forever.

27Then Peter answered Him, saying, Behold, we have left [our] all and have become Your disciples [sided with Your party and followed You]. What then shall we receive?

    28Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, in the new age [the Messianic rebirth of the world], when the Son of Man shall sit down on the throne of His glory, you who have [become My disciples, sided with My party and] followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

    29And anyone and everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for My name's sake will receive many [even a hundred] times more and will inherit eternal life.

--Mat 19



Psalm 72

7In His [Christ's] days shall the [uncompromisingly] righteous flourish and peace abound till there is a moon no longer.

    8He [Christ] shall have dominion also from sea to sea and from the River [Euphrates] to the ends of the earth.

    9Those who dwell in the wilderness shall bow before Him and His enemies shall lick the dust.

    10The kings of Tarshish and of the coasts shall bring offerings; the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

    11Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him, all nations shall serve Him.

    12For He delivers the needy when he calls out, the poor also and him who has no helper.

    13He will have pity on the poor and weak and needy and will save the lives of the needy.

    14He will redeem their lives from oppression and fraud and violence, and precious and costly shall their blood be in His sight.

Revelation 11


15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnHksDFHTQI

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 05, 2008, 01:58:40 AM
You are free to be as esoteric and mystical as you wish. Best of luck at it. What is true is true, and can't be changed.  :laughing7:

Bro PT :icon_flower:

If by mystical you mean to grasp an understanding by use of symbols, metaphors etc..then im happy to continue in learning .

May I suggest you too, do the same ,it may bless you with a greater and deeper understanding.

At least Molly saw enough and retracted, which dear friend, is more than can be said for you :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

willieH: Hi dustprophet...  :sigh:

I am SO GLAD you decided to note the below quoted words dusty... for they shall NOW EXPOSE you... and your method before all...

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 05, 2008, 04:28:58 AM
Exactly, and there is no point to argueing with those who have no ears to hear, and disregard the testimony of Jesus Christ. What did He say in His parables about all these things?

Certainly NO ONE here at TM ...EVER... "disregards" what JESUS said, concerning ANY subject...  :thumbdown:

But what His APOSTLES "said" in the NT, ...coincides with what HE SAID... It is your agenda is to make it DIFFER, endeavoring to make the Words of JESUS to oppose what the Apostles reported...

Like it or not, ...the WORDS of JESUS were written down BY MEN... one of which was LUKE who also authored the book of ACTS... in the end, ...ALL that we have, are notations which were written down by MEN as GOD gave them inspiration... so we must bring in the attributes of what we recognize in LOVE and RIGHT/WRONG, as we analyze the writings in the Bible, to see if these writings MAKE SENSE...

For instance: 

(1) Does it MAKE SENSE, for God to have created beings, with the complete FOREKNOWLEDGE of their lives, to be ETERNALLY angry with them upon the completion of those lives...  :dontknow:

(2) Does it MAKE SENSE, that LOVE (God) would DESTROY something He has made with complete FOREKNOWLEDGE of their lives, when HE made them to go into BONDAGE, with the ability and power to deliver them from that BONDAGE, but does no such thing...  :dontknow:

(3) Does it MAKE SENSE, that the ALL POWERFUL Creator, made us ALL to gravitate (be drawn by nature) to SIN, then eventually blames SOME and not OTHERS for being involved in IT?  When it is ENTIRELY up to HIM to SAVE them from that involvement? :dontknow:

These are just a few examples of the MANY, MANY things which are ILLOGICALLY believed by the "church"... and which YOU in part, promote PT...

We are also told to REASON with GOD... REASON requires LOGIC... LOGIC requires common sense (basic, foundational logic)...  You observe the Scriptures to make no common sense dusty... and they appear to you as a "kingdom" DIVIDED against itself...

I HEREBY say the very same of you dustprophet, as you say of ME (in blue) in the above "quote"..

But there is a BIG difference between your assertion of ME (having NO EARS) and mine of YOU... here it is:

I answer YOU when you ask questions of me, (I HEAR your questions, regardless of their futile, and often ridiculous propositions)

however...

YOU... continuosly have ignored MY questions of YOU,  ...NEVER answering ME, ...nor do you answer others...  This has been adaquately displayed in this thread alone, but anyone watching this discussion, that would review YOUR DISCUSSION method, shall find this same agenda in practice, wherever you are in discussion here at TM... and regardless of the topic...

It clearly displays that you are DEAF of SPIRIT,  ...in which you proceed throughout various discussions as if no one is speaking to you, simply because you are unable to HEAR them (have no EARS) and the words they speak...

For many DO present, and HAVE PRESENTED, ...SPIRITUAL TRUTH to you, and you are unable to refute it ...with your CONFUSED BABYLONIAN knowledge and UNBIBLICAL terminology, and so you proceed as if NO ONE has said a word to you.

I have had MANY deep, and detailed conversations with, Jack, Craig, Molly, Chris, Pneuma, SeekerSA, Kratos, Taffy, Firstborn888, Pierac, Martincisneros, Stained Glass, etc... and ALL these, as well as MANY others here at TM, ...respond to questions asked of them, ...with observations they have gained through their own studies, concerning those inquiries...  we might not find agreement after all is said and done, but we DO answer each other...

YOU on the other hand, pretty much stand alone on this issue, dusty...  Ignoring ALL of us, whilst blabbing continuously...

There is little doubt that you have a tongue which is VERY active... and OUTSPOKEN... :dontknow:

But when it comes to EARS, ...you are found, barren...   :sigh:

 Believe or disbelieve what I say as you will, just as I believe or disbelieve what I may hear from others.
I do not recant because I believe what I say, or I wouldn't post it.
As for disregarding the testimony of Christ, what else can you call it when you reject His own explanation of parables He gave?
Every thing people believe here was my basic belief 20 years ago. Then I realized I was not listening to Jesus's own testimony of what was is and will go on here on earth, or in heaven, or even who He said He was.  Even the unbelieving pharasees heard who He said He was, but I had ignored it.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 01:23:32 AM
Believe or disbelieve what I say as you will, just as I believe or disbelieve what I may hear from others.
I do not recant because I believe what I say, or I wouldn't post it.

Believe or disbelieve what YOU SAY?  I could CARE LESS, what YOU SAY... I am interested in what GOD SAYS...   How more "full of yourself" could you be?   :JCThink:

The best any of us can do for the others, is to give them things to consider... YOU shall never convince ME of anything... but GOD is able to use you as a tool to direct me into new areas of thinking, that is if you submit to HIM, and leave yourself behind!  :nod:  ...get over yourself dood... :mnah:

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 01:23:32 AMAs for disregarding the testimony of Christ, what else can you call it when you reject His own explanation of parables He gave?

No one here is DISREGARDING what JESUS said dusty... some (myself especially) are disregarding what YOU SAY (and believe) that "JESUS SAID"...

I am REJECTING what YOU SAY, ...not what HE SAID...  You have been "given" an understanding of His Words... which does not mean it is a REVELATION, ...it could just as well be (self) DECEPTION... 

I believe that the one that has GIVEN you this understanding is YOU... as you are often found traveling OUTSIDE of the WORD (apocrypha), and often use UNBIBLICAL terminology (millennium) to prove your beliefs and "understandings"...

Your own words show movement in your beliefs, due to re-considerations along the way.  You, via your own testimony in this post, revealed to us that 20yrs ago, you believed one way, then changed.  That does not mean that you were REVEALED, it can just as well mean you became (self) DECIEVED... thinking too much of, and placing too much FAITH in what YOU THINK and what YOU SAY, and not placing enough FAITH in GOD's leading, and in the LOGIC and SENSE which is found in LOVE and learned by RIGHT and WRONG in this life experience...

Instead you concoct a completely UNVICTORIOUS statements which includes phantom UNBIBLICAL doctrines such as a "NON-ADAMIC" race of humans which is NOT to be RECONCILED and which goes AGAINST far too many Scriptures to bother naming them all... but a few are: (Col 1:20 / 1 Cor 15:22, 28, 54-55 / Rom 11:32)

Displaying by YOUR false proclamations, that DEATH is to reign forever, and that LIFE shall get LITTLE victory... to you and your false teachings, I loudly exclaim  :director:  "bah---humbug!"

The Scriptures NOTE by the example of JUDAS, an original APOSTLE of CHRIST, chosen by JESUS Himself, ...that a man is well able to be AMIDST the TRUTH,  and IN its VERY presence, such as was JUDAS, ...and yet does not set in stone, that he is incapable of being MISLEAD (by his own SELFISH motives), and then be found, BETRAYING that TRUTH!  ...to his later, regret!  :mshock:

Like I said brother dusty... get over yourself...  :sigh:

We are ALL a bit, ...if not a LOT fallible...  but I hold much more respect for those (unlike yourself) who base their beliefs in the WORD of TRUTH, even though it might be presently, misunderstood by them...

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 01:23:32 AMEvery thing people believe here was my basic belief 20 years ago. Then I realized I was not listening to Jesus's own testimony of what was is and will go on here on earth, or in heaven, or even who He said He was.  Even the unbelieving pharasees heard who He said He was, but I had ignored it.

John 10:33
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

:omg:  What a crock is this! :rolleye: ...how could you possibly KNOW EVERYTHING that ALL the people on this site, in fact, ...believe...  :mshock:

That you have admittedly LEFT your first love (truth) dusty... is a very SAD thing, :pitiful: not a something GOOD, to be proud of...  :crywipe:

More on how Jesus will be ruling the world during the thousand year reign:



31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

32This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,

33His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.

34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

--Daniel 2




5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

---Rev 19




15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.



--Rev 19

I was a universalist when you didn't even know what it meant.

Willy, I am beginning to think you are a pharasee,  believing in Kabala, and magic names and such. I say nothing of myself, nothing not backed by scriptures, as I said, but you are always accuseing and  ranting. I post an article and that is what I believe, then you come back with a bunch of pointless questions, to distract from the point, and are outraged that I pay no attention over all to those distractions from the post.
i don't fear being kicked out of the synagog, and say what I know to be true. I tell you from the start I am not here to be led off subject with mysticism, and am not posting anything but what I believe.
I do not go on any thread any of you post and argue or distract or denigrate, for what you post you post.
I post what I believe and answer logical requests about those posts, you demand I answer pointless scoffings at what I have said. I said it, therefore the answer is already there..

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 05, 2008, 01:26:23 AM
Symbols mean something, they are not used to signify some mystical or non occurance. Everything symbolized is backed up by other scriptures which will interpet what is symbolized or it is a false symbol. There are always two or three witnesses of each event symbolized.  The point of there being prophets.
Using symbols means using similitudes of a thing or event. The scriptures are full of symbols, and they stand for something, but not all things in the scriptures are symbolic. Was the flood symbolic, was the temple thrown down, or wasn't Christ crucifed just as David prophesied, to the letter?

The best teaching and preaching that I've seen thus far has always been where this was understood, whether it was in print, in Church, or via Christian television with let's say something like Joseph Prince's program.  And though the symbolic nature of certain passages was acknowledged, a sincere attempt at a consistent interpretation throughout the Bible was sought.  Have I scrutinized every remote conceivably related passage to see that, let's say, for instance "mountains" when they're not specifically mentioned by name and there's nothing in the passage to imply a general location that that necessarily means "a kingdom" from cover to cover?  No, I have not done the maddening work of verifying everybody's types and shadows and making sure that their symbolic interpretations are consistent throughout the ENTIRE Bible. 

When I think of all of the things that I've heard along those lines when confronting a new passage of Scripture where I've not previously heard preached related to this other symbolic interpretation, but if it fits the parameters that are previously understood to possibly mean such and such, then I look at it that way briefly, and if it seems to add meaning to it, then I'll remember that interpretation.  But in many ways, on many levels, I'm kinda preoccupied with the passages that don't require "reading between the lines" and when I'm done with those, then I'll gladly move to the horns, mountains, nostrils, empty toilet paper rolls, gum wrappers, etc. and see what all of that means to me when I finally get to it.  For one thing, I think that if I get any deeper about some Biblical things that a couple of people around here are going to choke me. :icon_jokercolor:

On the other hand, the Holy Spirit's obviously been picking on me about the book of Revelation.  But I haven't read it in a while, to be perfectly honest.  When I've said something lately, it's usually something that's clicking right then based on the dozens of times of intensive reading and meditating in the more literal translations that I've done the last couple of years on it.  I've seen enough though, on many of the prophetic texts that I know that beyond reading it with the frequency that the Lord indicates to me, I'm not going to give myself a migraine over it.  He either shows it to me, or I figure that it wasn't all of that important for that particular moment for the Lord to have explained it to me.  It evidently served no immediate purpose either in my own life or my teaching ministry.  Otherwise, the Holy Spirit would have kept those particular Scriptures going off in me like a major holiday fireworks display.  My life and my times are in God's Hands and I'm not about anything except my Father's business.  I know He's going to show each of us what we need to know when we need to know it and not a second before.  So, I'm just keeping my cares rolled over on Him and I'm encouraging all of you to do the exact same thing and to give the flesh absolutely no opportunity.  All each of us has is what God's given us, and often we're not able to fully express what the Lord's completely shown to us at all times.  And then obviously, sometimes we turn "a revelation" into "the revelation" and we think that we know more than we do.  The Holy Spirit, Father's gift of time to us, and our own meditations will give all things perspective in our understanding eventually if we're humble enough to care more about what's right than who is right.

Why is no one excited about the return of Jesus to reign and rule the world?


The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Who is 'the Christ' of our Lord?  Is that us?  He will return when his bride is ready.  Is he going to return to us all bickering amongst ourselves?   We have to prepare for his return.


Or doesn't anyone believe this will happen?  Hasn't history shown you yet that the rule of man and satan does not work? 


Can't you even imagine what this world would be like if Jesus was running it?  It would be heaven on earth.


It's time to straighten up and fly right so that he will return.  He won't come until his bride is ready.


... for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

willieH: Hey there, dustprophet...   :icon_flower:

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 05:32:43 AM
I was a universalist when you didn't even know what it meant.

That is as meaningless a statement, as me being one now, and you no longer knowing what it means...  :thumbdown:

Or me leaving the teaching of HELL ...is what made it INVALID...

The time one has spent believing something has nothing to do with its value as truth... Origen, thousands of years ago, knew this truth, which doesnt invalidate me as a believer in complete Salvation today...

On the other hand, ...Oral Roberts believes in the teaching of HELL that I left in the past.

My leaving it, does not validate his belief in it...  :dontknow:

You erect foolish and false ideas to try to validate yourself or invalidate me...

As I said, JUDAS is a fine example of one who was IN the TRUTH, and was found leaving and BETRAYING it by self-deception, just as YOU have done with UR...

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 05:32:43 AMWilly, I am beginning to think you are a pharasee,  believing in Kabala, and magic names and such.

Please dustprophet, get a life!   More of your concocted fallacy.  You have never seen me post any such nonsense.  I speak about no "MAGIC NAMES" (whatever that is) Maybe THAT is what is coming NEXT from you eh?  ...and to say I believe in KABALA is just as inaccurate and without foundation...

Try saying things which make sense, instead of continually throwing nonsense out in the forum, ...and hoping a few will latch on to it... :rolleye:

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 05:32:43 AMI say nothing of myself, nothing not backed by scriptures, as I said, but you are always accuseing and  ranting. I post an article and that is what I believe, then you come back with a bunch of pointless questions, to distract from the point, and are outraged that I pay no attention over all to those distractions from the post.

Oh really? ...What Scriptures back a NON-"ADAMIC" human race dusty?  What Scriptures NOTE its ORIGIN?  What Scriptures NOTE its survival on the ark?

There... 3 more questions you WILL NOT answer...  :dontknow:

btw... maybe I'll spend tomorrow researching more of your NON-SCRIPTURAL nonsense and reminding everyone of nonsense you have posted in the past...

You say you BACK your words with Scripture... I say you DO NOT... and I WILL prove it...  :sigh:

As far as distracting from the point, you did JUST THAT a few sentences earlier in this answer... saying that I believe in KABALA, and MAGIC NAMES... false accuser, making false reports!

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 05:32:43 AMi don't fear being kicked out of the synagog, and say what I know to be true. I tell you from the start I am not here to be led off subject with mysticism, and am not posting anything but what I believe.

No one is "kicking you out of the synagog" dusty... we arent even in one...  :laughing7:

Your beliefs for the most part are as valid as teaching that elephants can tie square knots...

Who cares what you believe?  You are welcome to think Superman or Santa Claus are real if you like... thats up to you...  :laughing7:

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 05:32:43 AMI do not go on any thread any of you post and argue or distract or denigrate, for what you post you post.

I am about exposing you because YOU are a dangerous one.  You are decieved, and it is your agenda to decieve others...

You are welcome to challenge me wherever and whenever I post, ...I don't fear you or your supposed knowledge... You are decieved... and the Word easily upsets your applecart...

You don't like me because I ask you questions that you cannot answer.  such as the 3 I asked above:

Quote from: willieHOh really? ...What Scriptures back a NON-"ADAMIC" human race dusty?  What Scriptures NOTE its ORIGIN?  What Scriptures NOTE its survival on the ark?

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 05:32:43 AMI post what I believe and answer logical requests about those posts, you demand I answer pointless scoffings at what I have said. I said it, therefore the answer is already there..

You post nonsense... and often things which have no BIBLICAL support at ALL.  

You started a thread today (can't remember the title) which is based and centered  upon the BOOK of ENOCH...  OUTSIDE Scripture... because you were unable to define yourself  IN SCRIPTURE...

Discussion is about interaction dusty, not just listening to YOU lecture everyone, and leave it at that... You dont like it...  :btantrum:   ...tough...  :thumbdown:

I'll challenge you any time I shall be motivated by God to do so...

It will be interesting to see if you answer my 3 questions... and please... dont try  drawing pictures with invisible ink dusty... show us the REAL DEAL... Show us SCRIPTURE which mentions NON-ADAMIC Human beings...  Which you propose are the TARES?  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi Molly... :hithere:

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2008, 06:59:33 AM
Why is no one excited about the return of Jesus to reign and rule the world?

I am not excited about JESUS Reigning in THIS WORLD... His Kingdom is NOT of THIS WORLD...

Personally, I am excited about JESUS returning to REIGN in HEAVEN... when He presents ALL to YHVH, which enable the ETERNAL permeation of Him in ALL...

QuoteIt's time to straighten up and fly right so that he will return.  He won't come until his bride is ready.

Though I commend you for admonishing others to "straighten up", it is not up to US and our workings, as to WHEN God shall call an end to TIME...

MAN does not prevent the ALMIGHTY from doing His Pleasure...  :thumbsup:

He has picked the DAY and HOUR... it will not come one second BEFORE, nor one second AFTER the moment HE has chosen, and is irregardless of the doings of MEN... whether they be "straightened up" or not...  :dontknow:

Just as the MONEY hungry preachers of today bark... Send more money, so we can finish the work and God will come sooner...   :thumbdown:

As if CHRIST's return were set according to the flow of MONEY...  And thereby poses UNHOLY, SINFUL MAN as in control of the return of the HOLY CHRIST...  :thumbdown:

QuoteHe has picked the DAY and HOUR... it will not come one second BEFORE, nor one second AFTER the moment HE has chosen, and is irregardless of the doings of MEN... whether they be "straightened up" or not... 

Actually, I think that the day and the hour is fluid--depending on us--which is why Jesus couldn't give it.  Unlike others, I believe that we do have a role, however small it might be, in our own destiny and the destiny of the world. 


..and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The above had stayed faithful to the end--meaning it was possible for them to not do this.  But, I don't want to get into a free will argument.  The scripture says that the bride has made herself ready---What did she do to make herself ready?   If she did anything, that means it was in her control.

He knows who his bride is and I don't believe he will return until his bride is ready, because anyone who is not ready will be left outside...


Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

Matthew 25:10
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


I always wondered about this.  Where are they going to buy the oil they need to meet Christ on his return?

But, of course, there is only one place--




17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

--Rev 3



Without the oil, there is no light.

QuotePersonally, I am excited about JESUS returning to REIGN in HEAVEN... when He presents ALL to YHVH, which enable the ETERNAL permeation of Him in ALL...

He is already reigning in heaven.  He is is sitting on the right hand of God.

Now we pray for --

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.



His will is not currently being done on earth in any global way, nor is his kingdom ruling on earth yet.
Satan is ruling on earth and men are in open rebellion, not even bothering to hide it any more.

But--


9Surely his salvation is nigh them that fear him; that glory may dwell in our land.

10Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

11Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

--Psa 85



Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2008, 09:21:11 AM

QuotePersonally, I am excited about JESUS returning to REIGN in HEAVEN... when He presents ALL to YHVH, which enable the ETERNAL permeation of Him in ALL...

He is already reigning in heaven.  He is is sitting on the right hand of God.

Yeah, I didn't understand that statement from WillieH either.  If Jesus weren't yet reigning, then the Holy Spirit would not have been given.  The book of Hebrews concerns Him reigning after the Order of Melchezedec to the age, and I've always understood that to be since His ascension.  The Concordant Translation couldn't call Him [in the book of Revelation] the Suzerain of the kings of the earth if he weren't currently reigning.

Oh, I like that word.


su·ze·rain
n.
1. A nation that controls another nation in international affairs but allows it domestic sovereignty.
2. A superior feudal lord to whom fealty was due.


Notice how the first definition allows for domestic sovereignty--i.e. free will--within limits relating to other nations.

Quote from: martincisneros on August 06, 2008, 09:34:00 AM

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2008, 09:21:11 AM

QuotePersonally, I am excited about JESUS returning to REIGN in HEAVEN... when He presents ALL to YHVH, which enable the ETERNAL permeation of Him in ALL...

He is already reigning in heaven.  He is is sitting on the right hand of God.

Yeah, I didn't understand that statement from WillieH either.  If Jesus weren't yet reigning, then the Holy Spirit would not have been given.  The book of Hebrews concerns Him reigning after the Order of Melchezedec to the age, and I've always understood that to be since His ascension.  The Concordant Translation couldn't call Him [in the book of Revelation] the Suzerain of the kings of the earth if he weren't currently reigning.

I believe When Willie uses the Term HEAVEN, in this regard, he means OUR MINDS....As he sees the NEW HEAVENS( our new minds given in the NC) and NEW EARTH ( our regenerated BODIES being Spirit), If in HIM ,we to reign, NOT over the world but over death , FOR HE IS THE LIFE...Maybe thats what hes  saying. :icon_flower:, we wont have to wait long to find OUT :laughing7:

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Blessings

It's happening right now if anyone has the eyes to see it.

The official version is blah, blah, blah...

And, truth springs up out of the earth to challenge the lies.

It's happening all over the world, praise God!

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2008, 11:43:33 AM
It's happening right now if anyone has the eyes to see it.

As eyes are Given then the carnal minded will not....

As LIFE is NOW,the we reign NOW ,made KINGS and Priests IN HIM NOW , reigning the Thousand ( symbolic) years NOW,

Rev 1:6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Yes, it's happening in some in the now always.  Some people have always been able to see and speak and hear the truth.

But it needs to reach a critical mass where the stone uncut by human hands smashes the feet of clay, where the mountain fills the whole earth.

And, that will be the time of the 1000 year reign of our Lord and his Christ.

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2008, 12:11:49 PM
Yes, it's happening in some in the now always.  Some people have always been able to see and speak and hear the truth.

But it needs to reach a critical mass where the stone uncut by human hands smashes the feet of clay, where the mountain fills the whole earth.

And, that will be the time of the 1000 year reign of our Lord and his Christ.

Molly

If the 1000 years is symbolic as being noted , just where is this  other LITERAL 1000 years found ? :dontknow:

Taffy--

You're calling it symbolic, I'm not.

And, I have the book of Daniel, Chapter 2,  to back me up.


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

--Daniel 2


This is talking about a system, about a kingdom, about a way of living together, that the people of this earth have never seen before.

QuoteTaffy--

You're calling it symbolic, I'm not.

No MOLLY im NOT, :icon_flower:

Tis scripture ,NOT YOUR UNFOUNDED words which TELL US its signified.

Now Molly, you show me where we are told in Revelation..any scripture will do which tells us This thousand Years is literal..Only Post in return if you find it...your WORDS are wind.

AGAIN..For the benefit of those who maybe reading..Why is this in the very FIRST verse?..why not just say..."Given to John in the literal sense.",,just as well HE didnt or we would all think HE LOST THE plot.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

Do we have scripture that says Christ is returning?

Do we have scripture that tells us that God will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed?

Do we have scripture that tells us that in order to do that he will smash all the existing kingdoms of man and satan all the way back to the stone age?

Do we have scripture which tells us that Christ will rule the nations, the whole world?

Do we have scripture which tells us that he will put all his enemies under his feet?

Do we have scripture that tells us he will rule from the holy city?

Do we have scripture that tells us that people will come from all of the world to learn from him?

Do we have scripture that tells us that there will be no more war and no more destruction in this kingdom?

Do we have scripture that tells us that we will rule with him?

Yes, and I've posted it all and more.


This piece in Revelation just gives us more detail about something that has already been witnessed all through Bible prophecy.


Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Molly



Hope you dont expect me to accept that as an answer...yet you fail to acknowledge the opening verse which clearly states whats written is symbolic....?

Beat around the bush as much as you wish.....

Revelation is written in symbolic form , any decent student of the WORD would acknowledge that, BUT ALAS ,MANY fill in what they yet to see with carnal interpretation....Its called filling the GAPS, which Molly,  you have done in this case.


Even to begin to understand whats written, one has to at least Grasp the core of ALL SCRIPTURE...The law came by MOSES, Grace and Truth By Christ..Death HAS to DIE for LIFE  to LIVE....Revelation is no different but written in symbols..., its a repeated message..

For symbols to be interpreted they to NEED to be searched elsewhere WITH IN SCRIPTURE...which has been clearly pointed out earlier in the THREAD.

The word BABYLON comes to Mind Molly( CONFUSION by MIXING)...which can be apply applied with you in this case .
:icon_flower:

I don't agree with you that the word 'signified' means symbolic.

I see that word as used by the angel to assure John that he is acting as agent for Jesus in giving this revelation signed by Jesus himself.  I take it as a type of proof of authorship, guaranteed by his signature.  The Greek word means 'mark.'

But, I'm not going to make a big deal about it.  That's just the way I read it.

Let me ask you this:  Do you believe that there will be a literal kingdom of Christ ruling on earth?

I'm beginning to think no one here believes that.

QuoteLet me ask you this:  Do you believe that there will be a literal kingdom of Christ ruling on earth?

Molly Read it as you will but the definition is sig----nify by use of symbols

For mine Molly...THE ANSWER to your question is NO.. :icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on August 06, 2008, 01:58:27 PM

QuoteLet me ask you this:  Do you believe that there will be a literal kingdom of Christ ruling on earth?

Molly Read it as you will but the definition is sig----nify by use of symbols

For mine Molly...THE ANSWER to your question is NO.. :icon_flower:

Well ok, that answers some things.  Then how do you read Daniel 2?  What does it mean?

For me Molly , for years Ive heard various interpretations..got raised on em...in that , each Kingdom is an Era to follow , then another , then another.

anyways...Briefly I cant help to begin see this as the completion of Man..4( WORLD creation)  Kingdoms which are earthy by nature, thats US MOLLY.

Its our FLESH which must be crushed so the spirit can LIVE.....EVERY ONE HAS SEASON Molly..this is US TOO

Dan 2:21   And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:

Dan 2:22   He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. WHO DOES HE give wisdom and Knowledge to MOLLY..HIS OWN ....HE is the wisdom of GOD,and the TRUE LIGHT of KNOWLEDGE...its Him in US Molly...the false KING is us,...and that King has to be removed for US TO WHERE HIS CROWN...

Thats the essence what I see Molly....Not as Kingdoms In the world But MEN , US the flesh.

:icon_flower:

Yes, I agree--the kingdom of God is within.  But, please explain these other details, because these kingdoms being described are the great civilizations of the world, are they not?:


This dream is showing what will happen in the 'latter days:'  It's showing the future of kingdoms ruling the world  to Daniel and the king.  It's describing these kingdoms all the way to the last one.  God is telling Daniel what will happen.


28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days.


and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.


39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided;


While these kings are still around--God will set up his own kingdom which will never be destroyed.


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:


A stone uncut by human hands will break the other kingdoms in pieces, and also the kingdom of God will do the same.  What is the stone?  How will it smash the other kingdoms?   What are the feet of clay? And, how will God's kingdom break apart the other kingdoms? These kingdoms will be totally eradicated.  What will they be replaced with?


34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.


35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them:

44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


Then the stone becomes a great mountain which fills the whole earth.  What does this mean?  How does it fill the whole earth?  What is the great mountain?


and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Molly ...I wasnt looking at the Literal Kingdoms...., that was the Point. :icon_flower:..

:icon_flower:

But the dream is describing literal, historical kingdoms which ruled the world, including that kingdom of Daniel's time, Babylon.

Actually, it's a dream of prophecy, so starting with Babylon, the dream describes correctly the great world's kingdoms to come in the future.

You are just ignoring that?

what would these Kingdoms be Molly .....First the natural the the spirtual is how it always is, Irrespective.

In the natural, they would be Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome.

What about the kingdom of God in the natural?  Do we see that in the ministry of Jesus and the pentecostal ministry of the apostles?

What is the stone that smashes the feet of clay?  What is the mountain that fills the whole earth?

.

Quote"What about the kingdom of God in the natural"? 

Mat 21:42   
if you will we have the shadow( physical) being the LAW (OLD C ), then the spiritual reality in The NEW,Christ is the Hearts of men

QuoteDo we see that in the ministry of Jesus and the pentecostal ministry of the apostles?

Not for mine,but im not 100% sure what your implying

Quote
What is the stone that smashes the feet of clay?  What is the mountain that fills the whole earth?

Mat 21:42  Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


Mat 21:43  Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mat 21:44  And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder

2ND..The HOLY mountain, the one in Tibet :icon_flower:sorry had to get that In Molly.

Christ In US and Us in HIM ,Filling OUR earth Molly again I see this as OUR new Body NOT the WORLD outside as you see it.

QuoteChrist In US and Us in HIM ,Filling OUR earth Molly again I see this as OUR new Body NOT the WORLD outside as you see it.

Again, I have no problem with that and agree with it.

But, how is this to play out?  Just a few here and there bringing the light of Christ to a world of darkness, ruled by satan, ruled by lies, greed, and murder?

If that were so, I'd say--well, just give it up now.  Satan's won.  I don't care who or what you think satan is; he's won.

Or is Christ, the anointed spirit of truth, going to inhabit so many humans that they will rise up and crush satan's feet of clay with the truth, ushering in a new era where Christ rules the entire world?

We look at all the wonderful qualities of Jesus combined with the very capable qualities of man and ask, what would that world look like?


Isa 2
4And He shall judge between the nations and shall decide [disputes] for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Rev 21
4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."



15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Rev 19

Do you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?
Paul wrote the following long after Jesus had ascended to the Father, His Power. He reigns in hweaven, and not on earth yet as Paul said. There is someone else in control here.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  

Paul certainly didn't think the day of the Lord was at hand, let alone within you.
What one who is in Christ has within is the ernest of our redemption, the Spirit of Christ, making us say Abba, Father, without fear.
I know you know what ernest is about. If you have property you want to buy, you make a down payment on it as proof that you are in ernest about the transaction. Exactly what the Holy Spirit, Jesus does, for we are bought with a price. We get the whole of His Spirit, Christ in you, at His coming. The grace of God, by His choosing, not ours.

QuoteDo you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?

No lol.  I think I'm the janitor now.

I think I'm that servant whose master has gone away to a far away country, leaving me charge over a few talents.

I think, I hope, I am the bride preparing myself for his return.


Philippians 1:20
According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Quote from: Peacetroll on August 06, 2008, 10:19:25 PM
Do you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?
Paul wrote the following long after Jesus had ascended to the Father, His Power. He reigns in hweaven, and not on earth yet as Paul said. There is someone else in control here.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  

Paul certainly didn't think the day of the Lord was at hand, let alone within you.
What one who is in Christ has within is the ernest of our redemption, the Spirit of Christ, making us say Abba, Father, without fear.
I know you know what ernest is about. If you have property you want to buy, you make a down payment on it as proof that you are in ernest about the transaction. Exactly what the Holy Spirit, Jesus does, for we are bought with a price. We get the whole of His Spirit, Christ in you, at His coming. The grace of God, by His choosing, not ours.

Sorry Molly...Later,

QuoteDo you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?

OK PT,
Ill answer these questions later..BUT first, what do we Reign OVER?....and what is a ROD of IRON?

answer these..Ill answer Yours OK..The we can move on to the latter part if you wish As we say Here "The balls in your Court" :icon_flower:

 A rod of iron means absolute authority, and the power to enforce the the rule of God on earth.

Psalm 2:8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.  

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.[ The purpose of the thousand years]

The rule of the saints is all over the earth, doing then what Jesus said we would be doing to bring His salvation to all Adamic human beings..

John 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Have you ever wondered why He doesn't do what soever we ask now? Because now is not the time for this to be so, the thousand years is the time.

The saints return with Jesus to go into all the world for Him. He is the King of kings.

Obadiah 1:21
And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Matthew 13:49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieHPersonally, I am excited about JESUS returning to REIGN in HEAVEN... when He presents ALL to YHVH, which enable the ETERNAL permeation of Him in ALL...

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2008, 09:21:11 AMHe is already reigning in heaven.  He is is sitting on the right hand of God.

I agree completely that He is indeed REIGNING in HEAVEN... and that HE IS sitting on the RIGHT HAND of GOD... which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of GOD...

I wish to apologize to ALL, ...for not being clear in my statement above... as Martin was also puzzled at my words and upon re-viewing them, I can see I was not clear in my wording of my heart...

My excitement is about CHRIST reigning OVER ALL in HEAVEN...

Not just the FEW which follow Him in this moment, ...and any given moment IN TIME...

When YHVH has placed ALL below His feet... and ALL rejoice in His KINGSHIP together...  Hope that sounds a little clearer...

Not His return to THIS WORLD, but the RETURN of ALL to HIS WORLD... HEAVEN, ...ETERNITY...

willieH: Hi Molly...  :icon_king:

Quote from: willieHHe has picked the DAY and HOUR... it will not come one second BEFORE, nor one second AFTER the moment HE has chosen, and is irregardless of the doings of MEN... whether they be "straightened up" or not... 

Quote from: Molly on August 06, 2008, 07:58:34 AMActually, I think that the day and the hour is fluid--depending on us--which is why Jesus couldn't give it.  Unlike others, I believe that we do have a role, however small it might be, in our own destiny and the destiny of the world.

You above, negate the foreknowledge of GOD... and make GOD's RECONCILIATION and JUDGMENT subject to MEN and their doings... Please...

GOD has decided the DAY and HOUR, ...it was decided by His Declaration of the END from the BEGINNING, done by HIS WORD...  not by MEN continually putting that DAY and HOUR on the "BACK BURNER", by their folly... :rolleye:

QuoteDo you really think you are reigning as kings on the earth now? Do you believe His kingdom is here now, ruling over the kings of the earth with a rod of iron?

Yo Bro ,  ....The answer IS YES...SHALL we ponder the Scrips a Little and let them HAVE THEIR say?...

QuoteA rod of iron means absolute authority, and the power to enforce the the rule of God on earth.

Right lets get this Right...REIGNING with a Rod of IRON?..BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY DONT,

Did you KNOW paul had  THIS ROD, or was it a ROD of FRESH AIR?...but you say we dont have it NOW...it was around in Pauls time and IS now..PRAY READ the preceeding Verses...agh..but you  throw Paul out the window dont you come scripture..

1Cr 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness? .

Again I ask You...what ROD is THIS,,,you say authority..I agree, ROD is WORDS of authority...TAKE YOUR pick...do I SPEAK With HARD words of authority or  do you want me to SPEAK word in the MEEKNESS of the spirit, for I can DO BOTH....sorta, the HARD way or the easy way,,get the picture PT

QuoteThe rule of the saints is all over the earth, doing then what Jesus said we would be doing to bring His salvation to all Adamic human beings..

No bro yet again more of your words..

you realise that we will reign with HIM as KINGS AND PRIESTS,..im sure you agree, but scripture actually tells us what we reign over....YOU JUST may find what it says in there ,to be "DEATH"..thats right PT we Reign over DEATH IN us( WORLD= EARTH = US)

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Ephes 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light

Romans 6:4-5 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

we are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

Quotewe are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

And, what about the rest of the world? Are they just lucky to be oppressed, starved, and killed? What about those who live in cardboard boxes and use the sun for light, plunging into darkness at sundown?  What does the king and priest have to say about that?

Is there any hope for them?  Or are they just on the wrong side of the equation?  Can they be king and priest, too?  When?  Do you have anything to do about it or say about it, king?  What can you do for them?

Quote from: Molly on August 07, 2008, 01:04:39 AM

Quotewe are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

And, what about the rest of the world? Are they just lucky to be oppressed, starved, and killed? What about those who live in cardboard boxes and use the sun for light, plunging into darkness at sundown?  What does the king and priest have to say about that?

Is there any hope for them?  Or are they just on the wrong side of the equation?  Can they be king and priest, too?  When?  Do you have anything to do about it or say about it, king?  What can you do for them?

Wowza....First disprove what Was proposed BY scripture Molly....for its scripture we are discussing.

well, let me ask a different way.  You said you are reigning over death.  Are you reigning over death for a reason?  Does that reason include anyone else or the world in general, or just yourself?

Quote from: Molly on August 07, 2008, 01:21:27 AM
well, let me ask a different way.  You said you are reigning over death.  Are you reigning over death for a reason?  Does that reason include anyone else or the world in general, or just yourself?

Man do actually read the scrips MOLLY....they tell you...Try again.

yes there is a reason Molly its called acKnowledging our TRUE IDENTITY.

we go back Home Molly recognising WHO we are, Thats what I see , being OUR reward NOW, THAT ETERNAL LIFE being NOW, FOR those who KNOW LIFE( Christ) LIVE IN LIFE..Its HIS plan Molly, ALL FOR HIS GLORY, not ours, we will not change on thing which he has ordained...as willie  has stated a few times...

HE will have mercy on all, but for many I do not believe it will be in this realm ,

Quoteyes there is a reason Molly its called acKnowledging our TRUE IDENTITY.

I'm not sure what scripts you're talking about but I wouldn't dispute this, necessarily.  However, even though this might be wonderful, it seems a little....useless...even futile.

Given the mess that's out there in the world, maybe even ...selfish.

But, Jesus was not useless.  He pressed into the crowds, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, making things better for everyone except the rulers---he was in their faces, calling them out for the vipers they were, leading to his death.  Could that be the point?  Is that our real identity?

Could reigning over death mean I could change the world because I am no longer afraid--what's the worse they can do, kill me?


Hebrews 2

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

IMO, I think that symbolic language doesn't only refer to "inner workings" but also can refer to real literal events, that have spiritual implications (fulfilled in HIM).  This is an interesting article from a preterist site. 

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/home.htm

click on eschatology link on the left, then heaven and earth passed away

Quote from: Molly on August 07, 2008, 01:04:39 AM

Quotewe are KINGS crowned IN HIM and priests purified by HIS BLOOD...HIM..NOW PT,....

And, what about the rest of the world? Are they just lucky to be oppressed, starved, and killed? What about those who live in cardboard boxes and use the sun for light, plunging into darkness at sundown?  What does the king and priest have to say about that?

Is there any hope for them?  Or are they just on the wrong side of the equation?  Can they be king and priest, too?  When?  Do you have anything to do about it or say about it, king?  What can you do for them?

Mostly because I want it very much, to see what it would be like, a world of people (though still fallible) worshipping God and generally doing His will, things so very much more in order, a kind of Edenic world . . . so while I believe in a yet future period on the earth when God with a metamorphosed people rule with Him over those still reproducing in Adam, His kingdom is already here in any who have the Holy Ghost.  What will come is an outer manifestation of what words about it now largely apply to an inward reality.

People in cardboard boxes?

I've been homeless several times.  This was toward the end of about a six month period of winter homelessness in the late 70's, going from New York to Chicago to Minneapolis areas.  I went on north to where I knew in about a month there would be a several gatherings of believers in their tents, RV's and the buildings of what had been a Civilian Conservation Corps camp in the earlier part of the 20th Century.  Something like old time camp meetings, 350 to 500 people worshipping Jesus and hearing great teachers (Richard Wurmbrand was there one year) an a donation basis.  It was sleeting and I had tried to lie in a ditch to rest deep in the night.  It was so uncomfortable I got up and walked on to where I saw a dirt road.  Hoping to find a barn I followed it towhat proved to be a barn.  With a rubber mat I'd found over me, I gathered straw and tucked it in around me.  I was awakened in the morning by a whining dog whose stomach I could hear was upset at my being there.  He got a fellow that asked me what I wanted.  It was an Indian boy with a rifle.  I explained how God had helped me to find a place to sleep and where I was headed, which I knew had water, though no one was there yet.  They invited me in and gave me coffee and bread while we talked about God.  Meanwhile the place kept filling up with more Indians.  I asked them why.  They told me they had never heard of a white man that lived like I did so they were coming to see me.  I invited them over to the meetings.  Free food too! in about a month.

I went on through the forest, as they directed me to go the back way.  As I went the birds flocked high up in the great trees over me, going along with me and just ahead of me.  In their little peep and chirpy voices they kept saying over and over, "The LORD goes before you.  Praise Him.  He's good. God makes a way for you.  Thank Jesus.  Jesus makes a way before you" and such like.  When I got there and raised up from getting a drink in the dinning hall there was a man there that startled me.  He said, "You can't be here."  I answered back, "How can that be since I'm already here?"  He answered, "I know that . . . what I mean is, why are you here?"  I explained and he told me I couldn't stay there.  I went on to let him know I had nowhere to go.  I was harmless.  I loved Jesus and it would be good for me to fast and seek God for a few weeks.  It would be our secret.  "Please don't tell anyone.  Just let me stay."

He said, "Come with me" and took me to a ministry that had about 35 people living on an adjacent property.  I ended up being there about a year, helping out with the three convocations at the camp, and seeking God with other brothers and sisters.

Was the kingdom of God being realized in my life?  I think so.  Yet I pray I should not have to be homeless again.  I'm so much older and it's so much harder.


---James Rohde

OK . . .time to jump in . . .I've read the entire conversation from the beginning . . .took a long time . .got a little frustrated . . . felt like I was watching a grudge-match at times and through all of it, there has been a warring of words going on . . .it's a prime example of what Jesus himself was talking about.

Jesus spoke in parables . . .we all know that.  He said one thing, but meant another.  The people around him tried to take everything he said literally . . .it didn't work.  The reason it didn't work was because there is no life in the flesh . .in the natural meaning.  I'm sorry if this steps on your toes, but there is just no life in the fact that my Bible tells me it's a sin to use the Lord's name in vain so I'm going to make sure you understand why your swearing is wrong.  There is just no life at all to this type or style of conversing.  Nobody is being set free.

Freedom comes when one just lets go . . .stops trying to "do" and just "be".  You are not righteous because you spent hours of fasting and reading about righteousness . . . you are not spiritual because you pray hard and study your Thompson Chains on spirituality.

You can not mix oil with water and expect to get an even blend of the two . . .they'll never congeal  together.  You can not take a spiritual truth literally . . .it's not the intention of God to give his word life in you.  This is not opinion, your very conversation is evidence.

Taf and H . . .try as you will, explaining a spiritual truth to natural minds isn't going to get them to see any clearer.  I love what you guys have said, I respect how hard you've tried, but they've made it clear . . .even though Jesus himself would not speak literally, even though we're called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, even though Jesus said his words are "spirit" . . .even though John 1:1 states the Word is not what's on paper, but it's Christ himself . . . until people read these things with their hearts instead of their heads . . .it's just not going to happen.  They've made it clear . .they are going to take it literal.  So . . . if their minds have chosen this route . .just love them and let them go.

Okay, Molly and others who have supported her . . .this is not about who's right or wrong . . . this is about the ability to see beyond the words on a piece of paper or in a book.  This is why many times there was a phrase "he that hath an ear . . ."  It's a call to those who see what lies beneath the surface of what's been said.  Remember when Jesus was crucified and resurrected . .he was with his disciples and they were all excited because they thought that the reason he resurrected was so that he could set up a literal kingdom on earth . . .they still thought he was going to overthrow the Romans and take back the land . . .

When Jesus got on the boat with the intent to "pass to the other side" which is another spiritual picture . .. and as he got on the boat he warned the disciples about leavened bread . . .they thought Jesus was mad they forgot the food . . and he was talking about the Pharisees . . . this isn't meant to be a rebuke, but just an observation . . .this confusion, this frustration will not clear up until you lay your head down and let your heart lead . . .receive the seed . . .you don't have to understand it . . .your mind wants that control over you . ..but your mind, my mind . . .our minds do not have the capacity to comprehend spiritual truth. 

Knowledge is not what sets you free . .it's truth.  Knowledge is not Truth.  Your Bible is not truth . . . it points to truth, but it, in and of itself is not truth.  If you choose to only accept what lies on the surface of those pages, that's fine, but you can't expect to go into the deeper things of Truth when you embrace the signs pointing to the deeper things.  They're just signs . . .the Bible . .it's a precious thing, but it's just a sign pointing to Who Truth is. 

You're using your sign to beat each other up . . .it was never meant to be used as a weapon against other saints .  .it's just a sign . .a billboard  . . Everything that Taf and H have been trying to explain to you, comes from what God had "revealed" to them "beneath" the surface of Scripture . . .everything "you" have been trying to explain to them God has revealed to you on the "surface" of Scripture.  There's nothing wrong with that . . .you need to know the surface before seeing what lies beneath. 

But the clash comes, when you establish yourself on the surface of Truth and try to grasp the things that lie beneath . .the only way you'll be able to see those things is through the grace of God . . .and . . .by letting go of the surface . . .until then, the arguing will never end.

Gotta go back to work.

No matter what you say, surface or not, I'm looking for a city whose builder and maker is God.  He has promised me this and I believe his promises.

The Jews perverted this to mean it would be a military kingdom where they would be top dog.  When they met the humble and loving God of the universe, it did not compute.

Every time I see someone standing up for truth against a juggernaut of lies, I see Christ.  Every time I see the stronger helping the weaker, the healthy helping the infirm, I see Christ.  Every time I see freedom and [agape] love, I see Christ.

Call it what you will, but I hope in my lifetime, I will see a new heaven and a new earth, and he will reign for 1000 years, King of kings and Lord of lords--and I don't mean the pope or some other world leader, I mean the Lord Jesus Christ.




and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

---Daniel 2

Just curious, after this 1,000 years comes to an end . . .in your opinion, what happens after that?  Start over? 

In my opinion, to understand any of Revelation, yes it is in symbols . .yes it's signed, but it's also signified, but no matter, you've already made your case on why you see it differently . . .but the symbolic piece in here is, if you want to understand it . . .you need to realize also that it's "the" substance after which the type and shadow was made.  To undertand the Revelation of Jesus Christ, first see that the tabernacle of Moses is the framework . .in there is the candlestick, the first thing John sees after he realizes the voice is behind him . . meaning he was facing the wrong direction . . . before he could "see" he had to repent. . .to turn around.

The 5th seal . . . my current favorite . . .it's where the martyred souls are beneath the altar . . .traditionalists would say that these are literal people . . .dimensionalists would say that it is I who lies beneath the altar as I have become a martyr for the purpose of Christ to live in me, I first must die (not sure if literalists agree with that one . . .) so that he may life in me.  The lake of fire . . .is the laver . . .the 24 elders worshiping .and the bowls being filled with the prayers of the saints . .that would be the altar of incense.  It's all there . . .and the 1000 years . . . it's not a definitive separation of time . . .it's a person.  The dimensions of the room for the holy of holies is . . .10x10x10 . . .

Did you read what I wrote on the other thread?  It was dealing with Daniel having to seal up the book . .which contains the same pictures as John also saw . . .but John was told the opposite, he was told to keep it open because the time was "at hand".

My question posed to you who choose to take things literally is, if Daniel was told to close it up . . .and it was only 600 years later when Jesus reopened it . .how then can you explain the reason to keep the book of Revelation open as the "time is at hand" when, according to you, is yet to happen 2,000 years after the fact . . .what does "time is at hand" really mean to you?

In Matthew 23 and 24 where Jesus specifically says that these things MUST happen to THIS (meaning their time) generation.

As for one of your concerns with Daniel 2 earlier in this thread . . . . .and with Revelation actually . I agree that there is a literal application to all of these things.  The things in Daniel came about during the 400 years of spiritual silence between Malachi and Matthew . . . there are historical accounts that fulfill Daniel's prophecies to the letter.  So much so that there are even scholars who believed Daniel was written later than what it proclaims . . .that it was written "after" Jesus came because the things described are so accurate, dealing with the Maccabees and such.

And for Revelation . .yes, there is a natural application to that as well . .. it was all fulfilled in A.D. 70 when Israel was wiped off the face of the map.  Not one stone was left on top of the other in the temple due to the claim that it was built with gold or silver between the stones .  . kind of like it was supposed to be what was used for mortar.  Jesus was forewarning Israel of their coming doom . . .and even though they've been through war after war in their heritage . .this is the only one where the temple system never recovered.  "That" is what Revelation was about naturally.  But to assume it's supposed to be unfolding 2,000 years later .  . it takes way more faith to believe that than it does to understand the spiritual applications of it.

Which, by the way, is what these things are all about . .walking in the spirit.  As Jesus told Peter, flesh and blood can not teach these things to us . . . the rock that Jesus used as his foundation was not Peter the man, but it was the method in which Peter knew who Jesus was . . .it was "revealed" by the Father.  God "reveals" the truth of who his Word is.  It's not about how much you meditate, study, memorize or are schooled on.  Paul even considers all of that as dung . .it's not about having credentials through knowledge . . .it's about having relationship with who is invisible to our understanding.  Christ is that spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is . .there is liberty.

Blessings.

Yo Brud :icon_flower:

QuoteTaf and H . . .try as you will, explaining a spiritual truth to natural minds isn't going to get them to see any clearer.  I love what you guys have said, I respect how hard you've tried, but they've made it clear . . .even though Jesus himself would not speak literally, even though we're called to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh, even though Jesus said his words are "spirit" . . .even though John 1:1 states the Word is not what's on paper, but it's Christ himself . . . until people read these things with their hearts instead of their heads . . .it's just not going to happen.  They've made it clear . .they are going to take it literal.  So . . . if their minds have chosen this route . .just love them and let them go

Indeed your right Bro...but youll find not just I ,but willie Post for those who view ,its not a personal conversation, its out THERE for others to SEE.

PT and Molly are as EQUAL in the Lord as us all bud as ya Know..its NOT personal. altho IT may be percieved that way...whats said becomes a Learning curve for all those who take interest. :icon_flower:

I love your input matey

Taffy

15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23. I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

---John 17, KJV, 1611



Jesus' prayer for us---that we be protected from evil--keep them from evil--guarded.

He prays that we be sanctified through the word, through  the truth.

We abide in him, the true vine, and he in us and the Father in him.

This is both an inward and an outward manifestation of the Christ.

If he is in us, we have the fullness of the Godhead bodily within us.  We are walking temples, carrying the Christ wherever we walk in the world, until his return.

The book of Revelation is both symbolic and factual, metaphor and reality, natural and spiritual.

But this earth is his creation and he will have it back for his people.  The wicked will be removed by him.

The meek will inherit the earth.  And, war will be seen no more, because blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.

Hey Taf . . .that's incredible . . . that very thought occurred to me as I reread what I'd written.  I know I for one, as I read the conversation you were having with H . . .I was caught up myself .  .   . you guys were washing over me like a soothing rhthmic wave along with a cool breeze.  I do enjoy you two as your rivers converge with one another. 

Molly, interestingly enough, I agree with your entire last post.  I for one am a supporter of the idea of all living things returning back to the origin of all things.  Both "this" earth and "my" earth.  I believe that as the original alignment comes to it's full completion, we and this earth will return back to our garden state . . .we will be with bodies, but predominantly spirit-beings rather than physical beings . .and this earth will lose it's thorns and thistles . .all signs of curses removed because order will be fully restored . .  I agree with all of that.  I just don't think that's what Revelation is referring to.

No matter . . . I am in agreement with you in this prayer . . .may we all be one with the Son as the Son is one with the Father.

The book of Revelation is both symbolic and factual, metaphor and reality, natural and spiritual.


I had to do a double take as to who wrote that . . .it's what I'm saying exactly.  I'll go so far to tell you  that it doesn't stop with Revelation.  The entire Bible is that way . . .it's in dimensions.  The basic three . .for me, are . .natural, moral, and spiritual.  1st, 2nd, and 3rd . . they to line up with the tabernacle.

The 1st dimension is the natural story in every verse in every line.  There really was a Goliath, there really was a David . . . natural people, natural story, 1st dimension.  The outer court of the tabernacle is also 1st dimensional in relationship to God.  The altar of sacrifice and laver both deal with the infancy stages of our relationship to Christ.  Introductory to salvation by way of the altar of sacrifice . . .and the washing of the water through baptistm of the laver . . .both are illuminated by the "natural" light of the sun.

2nd dimension with David and Goliath is the moral value or the lesson of the story . .we all have felt at one time or another that we've had to face a giant in our live and if it were not for the complete trust in the Lord, we'd never have the confidence or energy to slay any giant ever.  Great application, but it's only 2nd dimension.  It'll give you a lift, but only for a time . . .moral application is pretty much a temporary fix. 

The inner court of the tabernacle is where the priests were required to participate in the activities required to keep the temple going.  Someone had to grow the olives, someone had to mash them into oil, someone had to store the oil, someone had to fill the little pots in the lampstand to keep the fire going.  Someone had to bake the loaves of bread, keep the wine full and someone had to gather the specific ingredients for the altar of incense.  Someone had to measure and grind the ingredients, someone had to keep the burning incense going . . .this room was not lit by natural light, but by cultivated light through the light of the candlestick. 

The third dimension . . in the tabernacle . . .was after passing through the third of three veils . . one at the entrance of the outer court, the second enters into the holy place, and the third is between the holy place and the holy of holies.  In this place, there is the ark . . .the mercy seat where God resided.  The only light in this room was the light of God's glory . . .totally spiritual all the way.  Men were required only to sprinkle blood on this once a year . .otherwise, no one was allowed to enter in it ever.

The third dimension to Goliath . .this is where it gets crazy for me . .I love staying in these rooms that do this. . .Goliath has 6 fingers, 6 toes, his spear weighs 6 cubics . . the number of man . .it's not the mark of the "beast" unless you see that the mark of the beast is simply the mark of man . .carnality.  Goliath was clothed in brass . . .brass is the same thing that the outer court articles are made of . .it's a sign for judgment. 

40 days Goliath taunted Israel but never actually advanced on them . . .there's a reason for that, I'll get to that in a sec.  But TO ME . .I know, many are going to say "testing" but I still like 40 as maturing, birthing . .because Romans 1:20 is one of the huge keys for following patterns. It states God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truth . . .he uses signs and symbols . .sorry Molly . . .I'm not trying to start a fight, but that's what it does say.  Anyway, it takes 40 weeks for a woman to go from conception to birthing . . .with that little scale . . .when you overlay it with whatever the circumstances are in Scripture dealing with the number 40 . . .a really cool pattern forms. 

Israel was not being tested by Goliath . .they were being taunted.  Noah was not being tested by the flood, he was being saved.  Israel was not being tested when Moses went up the mountain, they were being stupid.  And Israel was not being tested during the 40 years in the wilderness . . .they were being disciplined for their rebellion.  I could go on and on . . .But when you look at it from a birthing perspective . .you'll see that the 40 years in the wilderness birthed a nation with a promise land.  The 40 days on the mountain birthed the law . . .broken before delivered, and patterning after another conversation between Taf and H . . .twice spoken . .two covenants . . .hmm . . anyway, Jesus in the wilderness . . .birthed his ministry and purpose on the earth . . .Jesus on the earth 40 days after the resurrection birthed the true church . .before it became deformed into what it is . . .was . .. it's going through metemorphis as we speak.

And the 40 days of taunting by a giant produced a king . . .it was the day David emerged from his own wilderness.

So, Goliath is a picture of the carnal man . . .David steps into a stream . . .the spirit . . and selects 5 . .the number of grace . . .stones . . . not cut by human hands . .they were "smooth" stones . . stones that could fly straight as they traveled through the air. . .Christ, the cornerstone whose way is straight and narrow and few can see it.  So this stone is powered by a man with an anointing . .that would be you. . .and through the spirit of anointing, this stone is accurately directed at the head of the giant . .not just the head, but the "forehead".  It's a picture of Christ penetrating the mind of the carnal man . . .which used to be us . . right? 

The first thing that happens is, this giant collapses to the earth . . .because that's his place of origin, the natural, the carnality, the common logic . . and there he lays . .but that's not enough . . . David has to remove this head . . .this is where you come in . . .you need to lose your mind.  Your head must be severed from your body because you may be the body of Christ, but you, nor I am the head.  So the head must be removed and what is it removed with?  Ah, the sword and every breathing believer is quick to tell you that your sword is your Bible . . .not so fast.  Your sword is the Word of God . . ..that doesn't mean it's your Bible only.  But yes, the Word of God is what separates the head from the body.

Here's the kicker though . . . it is not my place to take my sword and use it against you. . .to prove you wrong . . nor am I to use it to prove I'm right.  Egad . . .this is what frustrates me most . . .it's not the sword that's the problem, it's our use of it . .our interpretations and applications.  My interpretation of the Word is not what separates your mind . . .nor is it my application against you.  It is HIS WORD that does the separating and it's to be applied . . .If I'm the one using the Word as a sword . .it's not to be applied to you in that manner . .I'm not to use my Bible to cut your head off . . .I'm to let the Spirit cut MY head off.

That "weapons of warfare" thing . . .it's not about bringing down the strongholds in others, it's to bring down the strongholds IN ME . . MY imaginations . .every high thing IN ME that exalteth itself above God proclaiming itself as God.  And there is where we part our ways from the traditionalists when reading Scripture.  Yes, it's the inspired word of God for building up and tearing down and reproofing and all of that . .but not against each other . . .I'm to apply it TO ME.

I personally no longer preach on the armor of God either . . .I believe that day for battle has come and gone  . . . I believe that my spirit has truly heard the sound of a trumpet blast, not calling me to war, but calling me to rest . . not the action of rest, but to the person of rest.  and in HIM I have laid my sword down and let it be transformed into a plowshare . . .no more sparring . . .only planting.  Share what I see . . .no intention to defend what I beleive . . we've seen enough Peter's cutting of the ears of the religious servants . . . it's time to let my lion (mind) lay (marry) with my Lamb (spirit.)

So, to recap all that . . yes there are more than just one way to read the Scripture.  Here's how I sum it up.

"Know" the historic truth.
"Apply" the moral value (TO YOU)
"Pursue" the Spiritual meaning.

3 dimensions, bring them together . .and now, you have a house that God built.

 
  wow that was great Nathan  :happygrin:, I percieve  alot in the same manner ..
Ps i so enjoy me ol mate Taffy as well  with the others , Taff and I go back aways , and a dear one to me ..
  God bless you  bro and all .........  rose

QuoteKnow" the historic truth.
"Apply" the moral value (TO YOU)
"Pursue" the Spiritual meaning.

3 dimensions, bring them together . .and now, you have a house that God built.

  I love this  contribution  by the way ,
  and makes   what Paul says very  real to me 
     death reigned from Adam to Moses  1dimension  history  :winkgrin:
as one dead /the deep sleep of the Lord,  outer court

  reigening Law of Moses  moral law to us to reflect [mirror /glass darkly] 2nd dimension  moral conscienceness  .,  inner court
  3rd  Christ reigening [ Life  within  the new man of the heart ]
  and the temple  being the Body/Physical  , Soul/ awakened moral conscienceness  and Spirit /Christ   the annointed seed & new creation
heaven itself   :)
  peace  rose

yo Brud

I second Rosiebud , me sis from old , a fine illustration my friend. :icon_flower:

youll enjoy Roses thoughts too matey... :icon_flower:

Blessings
T

Quotereigening Law of Moses  moral law to us to reflect [mirror /glass darkly][/

Good word Rosie. :icon_flower:

1Cr


13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Paul speaking as Child, as one under LAW,counting YESTERDAYS FOOD as DUNG.


1Cr 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Paul becoming ALL THINGS....to all people, speaking as One moving from LAW unto Grace and TRUTH.
1Cr 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
]

Taffy

Good Post Nathan

Quote from: Taffy on August 16, 2008, 01:19:12 PM

Quotereigening Law of Moses  moral law to us to reflect [mirror /glass darkly][/

Good word Rosie. :icon_flower:

1Cr


13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Paul speaking as Child, as one under LAW,counting YESTERDAYS FOOD as DUNG.


1Cr 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Paul becoming ALL THINGS....to all people, speaking as One moving from LAW unto Grace and TRUTH.
1Cr 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
]

Taffy

But, here Paul is an apostle, given eyes to see, living by the faith of Christ, by grace; yet he uses "future" tense verbage. 

NOW see though a glass darkly, but THEN face to face

NOW know in part, but THEN shall .....


What are your thoughts on this??


Sometimes Paul uses NOW language, ie: Today is the day of salvation,

and other times future tense

such as Peter here;

1Pe 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.



Heb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."


Rom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

  THIS thread is good food! thanks all who have contributed [and served] :happygrin:
  Lauren , these questions are so stimulating , thanks bro,

   Paul lets us know exactly what changes he is experiencing  personally to me
  and he gave a great clue  , in  the  fact being   present or future 
when He spoke of   that he was not perfect yet [complete mature in Christ] , but there were some that  are ! :)  and he  mentions this in

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 
and I am so comforted by his words   because it keeps my own  hope alive , where i am sure i would have all but gave up  already ...


here Paul acknowledges these perfect ones [ complete]  and  Jesus says in  one of his  sayings we are to be  perfect as the Father in HEAVEN
is perfect  ,but we must come as little children [ this is being tutored under the Law as Paul reveales more mysteries ]  here it is

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

  its Just the Way the Lord words  His words , that makes me think  some have obtained kingdom of  HEAVEN/ God   already , and Paul goes on the describe  what Heaven is in  romans 14
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    I have found that  what Jesus  teaches , Paul  goes on to explain  very well   , to me anyways ,
Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you

   and to me the Kingdom of heaven / God ,
  they are interchangable  after being compared to each other , and yet  there are some differences  to be noted 
  I am conviced its a mindset  and Spiritual  plain , a process , set and established  through Jesus Christ by Faith in Him , His Word  by the FATHERS   promise fulfilling  covenant ..

 
plain  adjective, -er, -est, adverb, noun
–adjective 1. clear or distinct to the eye or ear: a plain trail to the river; to stand in plain view. 
2. clear to the mind; evident, manifest, or obvious: to make one's meaning plain. 
3. conveying the meaning clearly and simply; easily understood: plain talk.   
  some of them thoughts bro 
 
     there is alot to go into , I wont do right now ,  but see what your saying
  I hope this is plain speech lol ,    this is one reason I do not post much any longer
  love rose

Quote from: rosered on August 16, 2008, 06:13:29 PM

         I hope this is plain speech lol ,    this is one reason I do not post much any longer
  love rose

Hi Rose,

Hi would love for you to post more, in your own method/way; God speaks in many ways.   :LoveH1:

  Oh Laren ,
you are such a sweet soul  and I love  the way you bring out more  Truth in plain sight  !  :cloud9:  many of your  questions have  been  refreshing as a drink of water in a dry    well [within me ] , I look in to
  and would not  If not  ''prompted'' to

  you always do it in Love and edification  , which  i feel  pleases the Lord
  very much as He asks  us all to do ........

2Cr 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you. For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.


  one thing for sure  , I love His Word it always  blesses my soul and fills me with hope , He sure is faithful as promised

  I can never deny that    :HeartThrob:
love rose

Hi Brud :icon_flower:

Quote

But, here Paul is an apostle, given eyes to see, living by the faith of Christ, by grace; yet he uses "future" tense verbage. 

NOW see though a glass darkly, but THEN face to face

NOW know in part, but THEN shall .....


What are your thoughts on this??

weh had this thread some months back bro...some thoughts on it shared within it...
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1354.0

Quotesometimes Paul uses NOW language, ie: Today is the day of salvation,

and other times future tense

such as Peter here;

sorta catches dun it..like rosie said..its just how the words are used bud..

QuotePe 1:5  Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

this can be read as future tense or understod in present tense, for that which IS HID will be revealed in the LAST time..LAST DAY, = FIRST DAY= TO DAY= 8TH DAY = SABBATH DAY= 5 DAYS ..FIVE MEANS GRACE COOL EGH?
,
Mat 10:26  Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.


Mat 10:27  What I tell you in darkness, [that] speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, [that] preach ye upon the housetops. Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

Gal 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

QuoteHeb 10:36-37 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry."

The word MAY brud implies for mine  means simply recieved.

to not fall back, fall away , having received ,....for indeed he comes swiftly to those who sleep in the night...

Hbr 10:38  Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hbr 10:39  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Rev 2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.


Rev 2:21  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.


Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.


Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Rev 2:24  But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.


Rev 2:25  But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.

QuoteRom 13:11-12 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

again Brud. ive written on this many times...some again were falling to sleep...one sleeps in the night, called in Genesis..darkness..falling away to former works..But paul admonishes them stating the NIGHT is far spent,( no longer under law) thats the DAY is NEARER than they FIRST believed...meaning for mine"now"".so shed those works of Darkness you are falling back to and PUT ON Christ...who is our salvation....


blessings Bro
T


[/quote]

Quote from: laren on August 16, 2008, 06:24:24 PM

Quote from: rosered on August 16, 2008, 06:13:29 PM

         I hope this is plain speech lol ,    this is one reason I do not post much any longer
  love rose

Hi Rose,

Hi would love for you to post more, in your own method/way; God speaks in many ways.   :LoveH1:

Amen to that Laren, Dont Hide Rosie, you sharing often gives me more to think on....forget your style and POST. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

or ill come a searching   :duck: :HeartThrob:

Blessings
Gramster

Quote from: rosered on August 16, 2008, 06:13:29 PM

  THIS thread is good food! thanks all who have contributed [and served] :happygrin:
  Lauren , these questions are so stimulating , thanks bro,

   Paul lets us know exactly what changes he is experiencing  personally to me
  and he gave a great clue  , in  the  fact being   present or future 
when He spoke of   that he was not perfect yet [complete mature in Christ] , but there were some that  are ! :)  and he  mentions this in

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 
and I am so comforted by his words   because it keeps my own  hope alive , where i am sure i would have all but gave up  already ...


here Paul acknowledges these perfect ones [ complete]  and  Jesus says in  one of his  sayings we are to be  perfect as the Father in HEAVEN
is perfect  ,but we must come as little children [ this is being tutored under the Law as Paul reveales more mysteries ]  here it is

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

  its Just the Way the Lord words  His words , that makes me think  some have obtained kingdom of  HEAVEN/ God   already , and Paul goes on the describe  what Heaven is in  romans 14
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    I have found that  what Jesus  teaches , Paul  goes on to explain  very well   , to me anyways ,
Phl 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you

   and to me the Kingdom of heaven / God ,
  they are interchangable  after being compared to each other , and yet  there are some differences  to be noted 
  I am conviced its a mindset  and Spiritual  plain , a process , set and established  through Jesus Christ by Faith in Him , His Word  by the FATHERS   promise fulfilling  covenant ..

 
plain  adjective, -er, -est, adverb, noun
–adjective 1. clear or distinct to the eye or ear: a plain trail to the river; to stand in plain view. 
2. clear to the mind; evident, manifest, or obvious: to make one's meaning plain. 
3. conveying the meaning clearly and simply; easily understood: plain talk.   
  some of them thoughts bro 
 
     there is alot to go into , I wont do right now ,  but see what your saying
  I hope this is plain speech lol ,    this is one reason I do not post much any longer
  love rose

ya see Rosie..
Tis Nuggets like this , is why you post :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Blessings sis
G

Well I think when you are in the Spirit you are in Heaven.....What man looks at/toward the millenium....seems to have happened to our Fleshly person (through a process) while we are alive now.  Like we are raptured when we believe!  We die....to ourselves!

A couple times in my life I almost walked up some invisable stair.  What holds us here in my opinion is our fleshly concerns.

To me, those who do not believe and the walking dead!  They are in their own state of hell.

Quote from: Shadowland on December 12, 2008, 03:26:52 AM
Well I think when you are in the Spirit you are in Heaven.....What man looks at/toward the millenium....seems to have happened to our Fleshly person (through a process) while we are alive now.  Like we are raptured when we believe!  We die....to ourselves!

A couple times in my life I almost walked up some invisable stair.  What holds us here in my opinion is our fleshly concerns.

To me, those who do not believe and the walking dead!  They are in their own state of hell.

Welcome Shadowland :icon_flower:

The land of the Shadow.... :icon_flower:

The purpose of the Thousand Years ( Christ) for mine , is LIFE.

Just depends, When in time , you may believe that to be.

And yes,  those who do NOT believe are Indeed ,asleep, Dead In NOT knowing WHO their Savior IS, Walking Dead.

:icon_flower:

I see where you are coming from, but I can't help but think that there is more to being in the remnant that will judge the world than simply accepting Christ as savior. After all, He is the savior of all persons. Those who are part of that remnant will have risen to a higher order. The reason for the millenial reign (whatever period of time it actually is) is to finish the work of perfecting the human race by fire. Not literal fire. Fire represents a purifying force. That which is burned away is always the influence of the flesh. You are right to assume that we are not going to be able to get all persons to that level in this age. That does not mean that none will achieve it. The bulk of the new testament is about becoming holy as He is holy. It was not stressed in vein. We are meant to achieve it here and now. Those who do will be the remnant, not all who accept Christ. We will all have to achieve it in order for the ages to end and God to be all in all. No matter if it happens in this age, or the next, or the next, etc., it will have to happen for all. That is the reasn for the ages; to move through the stages of perfection.

Someone typed these scriptures.....let us take them apart.  Please reply to my questions.

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Jesus already did this!

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,Is this the seal that was shut up...nuts where was that? .....that he should deceive the nations no more,...... till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Why?   See Below! Rev 20:5.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead( the walking dead????) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. when satan is again set loose???     This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Quote from: Shadowland on December 15, 2008, 03:34:35 AM
Someone typed these scriptures.....let us take them apart.  Please reply to my questions.

Rev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Jesus already did this!

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,Is this the seal that was shut up...nuts where was that? .....that he should deceive the nations no more,...... till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Why?   See Below! Rev 20:5.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead( the walking dead????) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. when satan is again set loose???     This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Speaks For me Of Law and Grace and , Specifically The Bondservant...Those who again Return, and Making Grace of No effect.

I cant Help But See Christ is the 1000 yrs,He is The END, The Completion of our Faith,. and satan being see likened to the Tongue ,That which Has the Power of Death, But Now defeated...unless ,we Return Once again to our Vomit....that which Doubts

???????????????????????????????????

Something to think about Taffy!  TY

QuoteRev 20:1  And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. Jesus already did this!

Jesus died and went into the realm of the dead and preached to the souls in captivity. He owns the keys to Hades (translated Hell but means the realm of the dead) and Thanatos which is death itself. If you simplify the statement, it is talking about an Aggelos (translated angel which actually means a messenger or envoy) who is sent with the key to lock death away so that it cannot trouble mankind for a while. Even though Jesus has had the keys (which is symbolic of the right to govern them, not a literal set of keys) He has not as of yet locked the grave and the realm of the dead away so that they cannot effect us. He is simply stating that He will do that for a season.

QuoteRev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

All of these words translated to mean a person called Satan could be talking about a force or influence rather than a specific personage. That is something you should study for yourself. Drakon (Dragon) literally means dragon, Ophis (snake) literally means a snake, satanas (Satan) literally means adversary, and by these definitions you can guess that the language is meant to be symbolic rather than literal. All that is being said is that the influence of death will be removed for a time.

QuoteRev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him,Is this the seal that was shut up...nuts where was that? .....that he should deceive the nations no more,...... till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Why?

If I had to guess, I would say that the process of purification will require a little more exposure to the influence of death. The whole point of all of this is to lead us ALL to a state of purification.

QuoteRev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead( the walking dead????) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. when Satan is again set loose???     This is the first resurrection.

This seems to be talking about the remnant that will be selected for the first resurrection. These will be the people who have proven themselves worthy of becoming priests and Kings and reigning with Christ through the millennium. Verse 4 shows that it must be earned by revealing that these people have separated themselves from the influence of the world. Verse 5 proves who He is talking about by stating that this is the first Anastasis (resurrection). This word also carries the meaning of a lifting up in status as well as the traditional understanding of returning from death to life.

The walking dead are those who died before this time period. The remnant will govern the world and all who are still alive at that time. When he says that this refers to the first resurection, he is talking about the group selected to rule, not the ones who are dead. They will not be part of that resurection or exaltation to a higher office. Just look at the next verse if you have doubts.

QuoteRev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

This verse tells about those who are raised up to rule with Christ for the millennial age. It states that they will have no need of a second death because their perfection in Christ is already complete. It is also pretty clear that these people will be blessed and holy people which suggests that it is an earned privilege.

Snake = one who lies

Rise up oh ye people and worship me the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
I will make unto you a clean conscious and lift you up.
When you praise me I will lift you up.
You are my free, my children whom I love.
Come with me and I will show you mercies beyond comprehension.
You will fly as the Eagle and give meat to those in need of me.

Praise the Lord! Wow....oh...neat!  That came into my brain!

Is that one of the psalms? Which one is it? Awesome! :happygrin:

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 23, 2008, 05:45:59 PM
Do we all agree there will be a thousand year reign of Jesus Christ here on this litteral earth?

If so, what purpose will it serve? Do you think people will be married, or babies born during that reign?

Do you understand the vision of Daniel concerning this event?That it is about all the world from start to finish?

Daniel 2: 36This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

37Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.

38And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

39And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

40And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

41And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

42And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[What can THIS mean, Are all humans men in God's eyes?]
43And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.


44And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.  

What do you think the millineum is for,and who will be in that millineum?Why will the kingdom not be left to other people than those in the vision?

No, we do not all agree.  Not that there should be any condemnation here, I just see it much differently.  For one . . .I find it strange that the traditional belief is, 99% of the beings will be in the spirit while the other 1% will be still in the flesh . .and even though 99% are in the spirit . . .the thousand years is still a measurement of the flesh.  It's not fitting for me.  I have been a fundementalist all my life . . .up to the point where I realized the letter of the word kills if you embrace it . . .but LEADS you to life if you exercise it.  But exercising it, I don't mean living by it's literal rules . . that would be embracing it.  But exercising it, I mean that it is what Jesus says it is . . .it's a sign.

John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!

They are a sign that "points" to Christ . . .who is . . .a spirit.  Follow the directions by doing what Scripture says . .when it says we are free from the law of sin and death . .walk in that.  When it says the flesh profiteth nothing . .walk in that as well.  When it says "walk in the spirit and not after the flesh . . ."  There is where things begin to transform "how" I read Scripture.  The Word is a sign in the physical realm that points to life in the spiritual realm.

Revelation is very explicit as to how it's to be read . . .it's written in signs and symbols . . .it's not meant to be emphasized literally . .and . . as was shared on the thread "servant versus bondservant" the book is not written to just anybody.

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Read that verse very slowly.  First . .it's not about a timetable for the earth or mankind.  It's a revelation . .and unveiling . . .it's the uncovering of that which was once covered . . .of Jesus Christ.  And John didn't "learn" it . . the Father "revealed" it to him.  In this translation (KJV) servants there really should be bondservants . .but because this is explained in the thread previously mentioned . . .we'll let that go here.  must shortly come to pass  This one so many people in so many churches seem to just skim over . . .to them . . .2000 years can still mean shortly.  To me . . .shortly meant . . .shortly.

And it was sent AND SIGNIFIED . . .it's all symbolism.  Just as we understand the number 7 has nothing to do with an accumulation of numeric objects but instead it actually means completion and fulfillment . . .the number 1 means sovereignty . .2 means witness . . .3 = resurrection and life.  1000 is the same thing.  It has nothing to do with a specific length of anything.  It is a DIMENSION of REST.  It is the holy of holies where there is NO LABOR required of the priests.

Why?  Because Revelation is an unveiling of Jesus.  And the tabernacle is the forerunner of Revelation.  It is the blueprint.  Moses was told to pay special attention to detail because it was a PATTERN of something else.  The tabernacle is patterned after Christ.  Revelation is the unveiling of Christ . . .if you want to understand Revelation, you need to first understand the symbolism of the tabernacle because it's referred to all through Revelation.  And the thousand year reign is no differnt.  The dimensions of the holy of holies was 10x10x10 . .that equals 1000.  It's all symbolic for something deeper SPIRITUALLY not physically.

It's spirtiual language and it'll never fit when we try to interpret it with natural reason.  The rapture that the church expects to happen literally, happens "spiritually" in every one of us when we "see" the revelation of Christ in our hearts.  The antichrist is my carnal mind . .the bottomless pit . . .same thing . . .the locusts that fly out of this pit are my carnal thoughts that consume every living thing I release them on . . .but we're to take captive those thoughts.  Christ is the only one that has the key to unlock my mind . .not to release the curse within, but to transform it.  Hell, death, lake of fire . .. it's all spiritual . .there is no literal lake of fire . . .that is the laver that cleanses the priests.

So no . . not everyone agrees that the thousand years is still something that is yet to happen on this earth . . .those things came and went with the end of THAT age.

excellent nathan;praise God for the revelation He is showing you. you have a great way of allowing the reader to understand!
blessings in the kingdom :icon_king:

 

QuoteRead that verse very slowly.  First . .it's not about a timetable for the earth or mankind.  It's a revelation . .and unveiling . . .it's the uncovering of that which was once covered . . .of Jesus Christ.

Amen Nathan, that which Is HID behind the veil, if its hid , its concealed , the fact that its Hidden doesnt negate that which has always Been there, The mystery of the ages is what Paul comes to Understand

Christ seperating Paul from HIS "MOTHERS WOMB", that Is Judasim ,The womb\bowels, is likened to our our mind, our thought process, to that which he was  Born, HIS mind Now renewed in CHRIST, by  passing through of the veil...,
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby


Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.


Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called [me] by his grace,

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Quote from: NathanSo no . . not everyone agrees that the thousand years is still something that is yet to happen on this earth . . .those things came and went with the end of THAT age.

This is where you lose me.  I get most of it up until this point.  



1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

3and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


--Rev 20


This is the thousand year reign of the Melchizedek priesthood.  Those reigning during this time are eternal, because this priesthood is based on an indestructible life.   That is why they are the first resurrection.  That is why the second death has no power over them.  These things have to be factual.

Now Martin says Jesus becomes High Priest and King as soon as he rides into Jerusalem.  I think he becomes this as soon as he is declared the Son by God.

22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

--Luke 3


Consider this.  There are servants(slaves), bondservants(freemen who choose to serve), and sons.  The sons co-inherit with Christ.  This is a legal matter.  The sons are the legal beneficiaries.  As they co-inherit with Christ, so are they also co-owners, and co-rulers with Christ.  Just as the pattern is given us of the Levite priesthood passed down from father to son, so also is the Melchizedek Priesthood pased down from Father to Son, but on the basis of an eternal life.


12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

--John 1


Do any of the apostles call themselves sons?  Why not? They are still bondservants, the firstfruits, ushering in the reign of the sons of God.  They are like midwives--  Those who help in the birthing process--  As are all the servants of God--


14Are [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

--Hebrews 1


It is not the angels, not the servants or bondservants, not the prophets, priests, and kings who will inherit the kingdom of God, it is the sons.

So we wait.  We wait for this to be fully manifested--on earth as it is in heaven:



Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I really think you're definitely leaning in the right direction Molly.  I like your views on sons and bond-servants . . .I'm reminded of the prodigal . . .he was a son, but he saw himself returning as a slave.  I think perhaps all are sons, but some sons see themselves as slaves out of debt, and others out of relationship.  The sonship brings inheritance which truly is key.

I would love to see a church that has this revelation, and "then" come into a revival like we've seen many churches do.  I truly believe this is the main reason why revivals don't stay long.  Men don't understand the order of God.  They build their man-made carts in which to carry this spiritual presence and try to govern where it can and can not go.  But the presence of God is not to be pulled in a "new" cart by oxen . . .a laboring mind.  Instead, it's to be carried "upon" the shoulders of men . . .it is to "replace" the mind of man.

your passage you quoted about him seeing those that were beheaded . .that's what that is.  It's not speaking to me about those who literally were beheaded.  That would mean, those that were beheaded got more attention than those that were crucified . .or burned at the stake . .or stuffed into an animal skin and ripped apart by lions . . .there are much more violent ways to go than just being beheaded . . .in fact, "that" is probably the fastest way to go.

No, I see these as the saints who let the Word of God separate their carnal thinking from the spiritual truth planted in them.  they didn't worship/honor/embrace the beast/carnality, it's image/imaginations and didn't take the mark/identity upon their hands/works or forehead/mind. 

So if these things are yet to all happen . .then Jesus didn't really mean what he said when he cried out "It is finished" . . .what he really meant was "my physical life here is finished . .the old system is finished, my ministry is finished . . . but in 2,000 years, I'll bring to completion what I said I finished."

For me, if he held on to life in the worst ever torture anyone could imagine, in the midst of all of that, if he held on long enough just to cry out these three little words . .then I'm just foolish enough to believe he meant what he said . . .it's ALL completed . ..done. 

It boils down to whether I choose to live in the spirit . .which is where these things are all completed at . . .or if I choose to live in the natural . . .which doesn't have the capablity to "see" what is or isn't in the spirit.  It all comes back to faith. 

For me to "see" a chair in the natural and then say "there is a chair there" . . .that isn't faith, that's simply reinforcing what is already being seen.  "But" if I'm in an empty room in the natural, but I "see" a chair in the spirit . . .and "then" I call it out "there's a chair"  "that" becomes faith.  You can't claim it if you don't see it.

So when I take the Bible and quote Scriptures . .that's not faith . .that's simply reinforcing what is already seen.  Faith is seeing what is there in the spirit and when you call it out . . .it "becomes" known in the flesh.  Moving mountains . . .a mountain is a symbol for government . . there's another word as well . .can't remember it.  But it's dealing with rudiments of men  . . . faith moves mountains . .it changes how people think.

Quote from: NathanFor me, if he held on to life in the worst ever torture anyone could imagine, in the midst of all of that, if he held on long enough just to cry out these three little words . .then I'm just foolish enough to believe he meant what he said . . .it's ALL completed . ..done. 

Yes, technically speaking it is all done.  He's done what he had to do in taking away the sins of the world.

When something is manifested, it doesn't mean it wasn't there before.  It's there, but waiting to be revealed.

Just like the unborn full term baby is there waiting to be revealed at his birth.

Quote from: Chris on June 21, 2008, 12:38:54 AM
I see a reign OF LIFE associated with TODAY, as well as a reign OF DEATH associated with YESTERDAY... both being ONE DAY... and "as A THOUSAND YEARS" (twice).  :Peace2:

In the beginning God divided the light from the darkness, dividing ONE DAY into THE DAY (TODAY, when you hear His voice and harden not your heart... and pass from death unto life) and THE NIGHT (which is "as YESTERDAY" when is it past).

God has a covenant with both (the NIGHT and the DAY).. and is, therefore, the same YESTERDAY, TODAY and FOREVER.  :happygrin:

I agree. TODAY is THE DAY of the Lord.  :dsunny:

And:

Luke 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

TODAY... when you hear His voice and harden not your heart.  :declare:

Then shall we be given right to partake of the Tree of Life and be seated with Christ in heavenly places, He having made us "kings and priests unto God" in the kingdom of the heavens.  :bowing:

Chrissie,,Dont go doing that To me sis.... :thumbsup:

anyways Where are ya,. :icon_flower:

 :cloud9: I like this, too....... :thumbsup:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on December 28, 2008, 03:23:40 AM
G did ya e-mail her? She was over at ogr with me for a day and shes on an old thread elsewhere too, I think shes into making her videos right now, too cute!

I like the way she shows this one with the thousand years, she shows it well  :thumbsup:

yup...Gosh

Maybe  shell come post some now knowing there others here too,,,Kinda got Lonely..mmm

Ive always Been a Babe Magnet sis,,...he ha,Maybe Nat will want me Autograph....

ok ok ok..Just Busting...Had a Mail a day back...he ha ..time to chat some amybe :icon_flower:..loike me shpelling

Quote from: Cardinal on December 28, 2008, 03:24:33 AM
:cloud9: I like this, too....... :thumbsup:

love to have  Chrissie Here ..who knows

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Could someone please comment on this scripture?  And is salvation a multi-step process, and what does it entail?


"My Spirit will not remain with mankind forever, because they are corrupt.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh..

--Gen 6

Wow,

What a thread.  I have to admit I didn't read every post completely.  I found some of the posts quite distressful in the way those of opposing views were addressed.  I can't see how people would not feel personally attacked by some of the posts.  There was no love there in my humble opinion.  I understand that it can be frustrating trying to expose what one believes is false interpretation and thinking but isn't it open to sharing here?  Is it right to be open to being called names if your interpretation differs from someone else's?  And that on my part is a judgment which may be unfair, but I just needed to express that.

I think Nathan did a fantastic job of expressing his views and I agree with him that there are layers of each 'story' in the Bible.  I really liked your example of the narrative on Goliath, Nathan.  I do love seeing the deeper meanings.  That said, however, I agree with Molly and those who believe there will be a literal reign.  Call me carnal, blind, whatever.  Since we have had to endure carnal governments here on this earth, why is it so difficult to believe or hope that there will be a time of great peace here on earth?  I don't know about any of you, but I don't see myself anywhere near the 'person' that I believe I will be some day.  Like Paul, I still do things that I don't want to do, and still don't do things that I should.  Sometimes I know that I can resist doing something I shouldn't do, but I do it anyway because that's what I really want to do.  I'm far from being in the likeness of Christ.  So, yes, my hope is that there will be a time on this old terra firma where we can experience somewhat of a Garden of Eden experience. 

I have a lot of ideas that others don't agree with.  It's for God to show me different, for when He does, then it is exciting and seems far superior to what I formerly believed.  When humans attempt to explain it, it seems quite distasteful, lol.  It's always been when I read an article on a website that my views changed, never by someone writing in a forum.  I don't know why that is, but so far that's been my experience.

However, I do find much of interest, usually when I least expect it.

This being an older thread and all, I'm not sure if I commented on this particular issue or not.  I've had this on the back burner for quite some time when dealing with the literal return of Christ.  I have come to terms with realizing that many things I thought would unfold were just misinterpreted understandings.  I have since let go of the idea of a rapture of the church.  I have since let go of the idea that there is a place of eternal torment for any who are made in the image of God.  The list goes on.

But one thing that I've quietly held on to was the idea that Christ would still come in bodily form.  Many people in my circle have shared that they do believe Christ is still coming, it's just in a different form from what many are expecting.  Christ is coming in a body, they say, he's coming in a corporate body.  His spirit will breathe and operate and manifest within the body of Christ as it manifests upon the earth.

I could see that, but I could also see Christ was still coming back in the flesh.  Now, those of you out there who have other passages that state this distinctly, please post.  But for me, the only passage that hung me up was when Jesus ascended into heaven and the angels declared "just as you see him go, you'll see him return".  Now, my head sees this to mean, that just as THEY saw him go in the flesh, WE'LL see him return.  Which is the same that the mainline church continues to profess.

But that's not actually what he said.  He said "to them" just as "you" see me go, "you'll" see me return.  IF Jesus hasn't returned as the church claims, then this proclamation would be a lie.  Because by human standards, there is no record that he's returned.  But then it occurred to me . . .I'm doing the same thing the disciples did after Jesus died and resurrected.  I'm still looking for a physical Jesus . . with my "natural" mind.  And like the disciples then, I would speak right past him, not realizing, he's right HERE in me.

Just as they saw him go . . .how did he go?  He left in a resurrected state.  He was no longer bound by the laws of physics in this natural realm of things.  He did return.  He returned in the upper room . . .he returned to Peter, he returned to Paul, he returned as judge to Israel as a nation . . .he returned over and over again, just in different forms with different purposes.  It's the church that has again ingrained in us this vision of a natual body returning in the flesh.

That led into another pattern.  All through Scripture when you see where someone's name was changed . . .did you ever wonder why?  My time is up, and I need to get back to work.  But in short, their name was changed because it was connected to a change in their nature.  Well, I believe it's the same for Jesus.  his form changed from spirit to flesh so that he would endure the curse of the flesh so that he could over come it and redeem man back to God.  But as he said on the cross . . .it's finished.  And if it's finished, why then would we expect hime to return back to the physical earth in a body of flesh, when that part of him has already been comlete and fulfilled?

No body said being pregnant was comfortable.  There are things that he's causing to stretch in us that we never realized could expand so much.  Makes your walk become a waddle every where you go.

Here is something I have been thinking for quite sometime.

All through the old Testament there was a promise of an earthly kingdom to the israelites only. Not Gentiles. Jesus said "I am sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
In (Luke 12:32) Jesus said "fear not little flock,for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom". Also in Luke 13:29 it says, "they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God".

In many places it says that when Christ returns he brings his saints with him (1Thess. 3:13) (Zech. 13:5)  (Joel 3:11). I pose a question. Are these angels or Israelites that was resurrected in 70 AD who God will give the kingdom to? If Jesus came back in 70 AD he took the saints back with him. That is why Jesus said of John "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee"? Jesus must have come back before John died.

(1Cor. 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ,{first resurrection}  the firstfruits {Israel, second resurrection} afterward they that are Christ's at his coming {third resurrection}.

I wonder if the second resurrection hasn't already happened? I am beginning to believe it has. There are just too many scriptures that show this.

Lets say the second resurrection has already happened. The saints are already with God, maybe being trained to rule in the kingdom that Christ will set up on his next and last return. Which will be the third resurrection. This would explain Christ coming back in all the scriptures and the saints return as well. It would still leave the kingdom to be given to the Israelites, during the thousand years.

Any comments/

CHB

But did Jesus appear to the "lost sheep of Israel?"   Number one, those inhabiting Israel at the time of Christ were mainly from the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin with some from Levi to make up the priests.  The other 9 tribes plus many from the tribe of Levi were assimilated among the nations that conquered them and they were dispersed to many nations.  So the promises were not exclusively to the "Jews."  Besides Paul informed us that a true Israelite was not one outwardly, but one inwardly.

The whole dispensational teaching revolves around different promises and gospels for the gentiles and the Israelites.  I studied it for awhile but it didn't seem right to me.  What was spiritually inherent in God's dealings with primitive, physical Israel is what is still for us today, at least in my opinion.  I'm just sharing what my studies indicate to me.

It is good tho and challenging to have different views presented.  I've been at a few places where pretty much everybody agreed about everything, it really is kinda boring, lol.  I just don't like strife within the disagreement. 

Just a thought on the 3 resurrections mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians.  Before speaking of those 3, Paul has already established that Christ was risen.  He states that all will be made alive IN CHRIST, but each in his own order (or squadron).  It seems a bit strange that he would start off with Christ when he is teaching about the resurrection of the rest of men.  The word Christos means anointed, and so it is possible (and to me seems more likely) that Paul was not talking about THE Christ in that passage, but about the annointed firstfruits (which would be more likely to be considered a squadron than one man), there is no article before that 'christ' as there is before when Paul said all will be made alive in the Christ and when he says the second squadron is composed of those who are 'the Christ's' at his appearing.  A more thorough explanation is given in Stephen Jone's book, Creation's Jubilee which can be found here:   http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/stephen_jones/jones6.html   in chapter 6.

I would recommend this book highly, tho I don't agree with everything Dr. Jones holds to.  Another good insight in this book can be found in chapter 8 which addresses the relationship between sin and death...that we sin because we are mortal.

Hope I didn't deviate too much from the thread.

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:19:09 AM
Is there something called the "second" ressurection?

(Rev. 20:4-13) Verse 4 speaks of those who have been killed for the witness of God and them reigning with Christ a thousand years.

In verse 5 it says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION".

If there was a first, then it stands to reason there is a second. Also, in (1Cor. 15:23) it speaks of more than one resurrection at least that is the way I understand it at this point. I have changed my mind many times, so nothing is concrete.   

Rev.Verse 6 says "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

I believe this is talking about the Jew's or those in the New Covenant. All those that are Christians up till John. The Jew's are the only ones who will be priests. The book of Revelation was to the Jew's {seven Churches} not Gentiles.

In verses 12 and 13 is a second group of people, still Israelites. If you notice in verse 12 it says "the dead were judged according to their works".  Has to be Israel.

If we are in Christ we have no works, it is Christ working in us. If we are dead in Christ, dead people don't work. When the Father looks at us he sees Christ. The Jew's, and those who keep laws are the ones who will be judged according to their works.

CHB

Quote from: ScarletWren on January 09, 2009, 08:31:59 AM
But did Jesus appear to the "lost sheep of Israel?"   Number one, those inhabiting Israel at the time of Christ were mainly from the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin with some from Levi to make up the priests.  The other 9 tribes plus many from the tribe of Levi were assimilated among the nations that conquered them and they were dispersed to many nations.  So the promises were not exclusively to the "Jews."  Besides Paul informed us that a true Israelite was not one outwardly, but one inwardly.

The whole dispensational teaching revolves around different promises and gospels for the gentiles and the Israelites.  I studied it for awhile but it didn't seem right to me.  What was spiritually inherent in God's dealings with primitive, physical Israel is what is still for us today, at least in my opinion.  I'm just sharing what my studies indicate to me.

It is good tho and challenging to have different views presented.  I've been at a few places where pretty much everybody agreed about everything, it really is kinda boring, lol.  I just don't like strife within the disagreement. 

Just a thought on the 3 resurrections mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians.  Before speaking of those 3, Paul has already established that Christ was risen.  He states that all will be made alive IN CHRIST, but each in his own order (or squadron).  It seems a bit strange that he would start off with Christ when he is teaching about the resurrection of the rest of men.  The word Christos means anointed, and so it is possible (and to me seems more likely) that Paul was not talking about THE Christ in that passage, but about the annointed firstfruits (which would be more likely to be considered a squadron than one man), there is no article before that 'christ' as there is before when Paul said all will be made alive in the Christ and when he says the second squadron is composed of those who are 'the Christ's' at his appearing.  A more thorough explanation is given in Stephen Jone's book, Creation's Jubilee which can be found here:   http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/stephen_jones/jones6.html   in chapter 6.

I would recommend this book highly, tho I don't agree with everything Dr. Jones holds to.  Another good insight in this book can be found in chapter 8 which addresses the relationship between sin and death...that we sin because we are mortal.

Hope I didn't deviate too much from the thread.

that was  great  Scarlet Wren!
  I also  believe that Christ[anointed] are the firstfruits   sis ,  and the Head of the Body [government ]
I learned that by the Way Paul spoke in  His   writtings
   many times he said  simply '' the Christ ''
  and other times the Lord Jesus Christ and other Times   just Lord Jesus

  this what you said confirms  for the same   things !
  thanks for taking the time to write out whats in your heart sis !    it is a true treasure

   for me there is a second death  and that  does not harm those  who are hid in Christ 
and are with Him at His coming[saints /holy ones / new creatures in Christ]

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
our Father would the the TRUE  ONE GOD     of those being born again of Spirit and TRUTH [the Incorruptible seed/word of God ]

, I see this as more Spiritual  than literal  in meaning Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.


Col 3:3 For you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.


Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall you  also appear with him in glory.  
the Christ [anointing ] scattered body will be  Gathered and Whole / complete and perfect  in GOD

  I noted that  Paul said this ,even  those who sleep in Jesus  will God bring with Him   those hid in Christ perhaps ?
  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
  this is how a  rapture theory come to being  , but I see it more of a rupture theory

  because of the firstfruits[Christ'sanointing ]

  And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.   1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.  

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.  

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. the annointing of God though Christ name Jesus , there is no other name to be saved by under heaven   :HeartThrob:


1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.





Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be  a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

  I can see that it is hard to explain  , but it is within us to know  and yet hard to express in words   what the Lord is revealing within us
   praying still for more clarity  of speech
in His   peace  ..........rose

Nice post Kim... :icon_flower:

mm, Not much more to add  for now after that sis...  :icon_flower:

:HeartThrob:

 
  wow that is amazing , so you been busy huh?  girl I see that alot more scriptures  are connected to these  you have provided  ,

   the Day [Christ]  is where the works of the Father continue , being   the  ressurection looked up the meaning of ressurection   that Christ Is
and see some things here that can be appied to those verses sis ...

 

anastasis
1) a raising up, rising (e.g. from a seat)

2) a rising from the dead

a) that of Christ

b) that of all men at the end of this present age

c) the resurrection of certain ones history who were restored to life (Heb. 11:35)


from ..anistēmi

1) to cause to rise up, raise up

a) raise up from laying down

b) to raise up from the dead

c) to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward

2) to rise, stand up

a) of persons lying down, of persons lying on the ground

b) of persons seated

c) of those who leave a place to go elsewhere

1) of those who prepare themselves for a journey

d) of the dead

3) at arise, appear, stand forth

a) of kings prophets, priests, leaders of insurgents

b) of those about to enter into conversation or dispute with anyone, or to undertake some business, or attempt something against others

c) to rise up against any one

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.


Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 10, 2009, 02:37:15 AM
Hi guys, I was locked out the forum and couldnt respond sorry  :grin: I have to find Chrissies I know its somewheres she just has better communication skills then me but she shows a thing much better Im sorta all over the place. I look for it tonight and post it when I find it.

You know Rose, its the word "finished" behind the thousand years too that has me. Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross, the mystery of God is also "finished" as it pertains to a trump. And lust concieved gives brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death... Its just the way something is worded and where you can find these words being used that will raise an eyebrow with me. I always think, "maybe its nothing, but most times looking into can really be an eye opener as to why something is worded that way.


For example, the power of sin is the law, sin by the commandment become utterly sinful, and the commandment used by Paul was "thou shalt not covet" (lust) which appeared to bring forth the conception of lust, and lust when its conceived brings forth sin when "IT is FINISHED" and on the Cross Christ was MADE Sin theres His death and the words "IT IS FINISHED" also the thousand years in relation to THE rest of THE DEAD had to be FINISHED. Being held as DEAD was in relation to the law itself where sin is empowered and Christ coming is specifically WITHOUT Sin... See? First he was MADE IT and come WITHOUT IT but the law in relation to the thousand years and the work of Christ fits in here somehows, I just cant see it yet, gotta look closer, I mean whats the thousand years gotta be finished for if were looking at this the natural way? Some questions irk me  :grin:

hugs  :HeartThrob:

yes    made sin wow  ! and without sin
   that is something , the way  the words  sound or speak  to us !  geez   Sis this is cool .. 


I  put up both places of scriptures 

and here teleō

   finnished 1) to bring to a close, to finish, to end
a) passed, finished

2) to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.)

a) with special reference to the subject matter, to carry out the contents of a command

b) with reference also to the form, to do just as commanded, and generally involving the notion of time, to perform the last act which completes a process, to accomplish, fulfil

3) to pay

a) of tribute

AV — finish 8, fulfil 7, accomplish 4, pay 2, perform 1, expire 1, misc 3

  this was tagged on there ??>

In Jhn 19:30 the word means, "It is finished." Christ satisfied God's justice by dying for all to pay for the sins of the elect. These sins can never be punished again since that would violate God's justice. Sins can only be punished once, either by a substitute or by yourself.



Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?  


Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.


Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.


Hbr 9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.


Hbr 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,


Hbr 9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


Hbr 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.


Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hbr 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.  

Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:  

Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hi Rose,

Glad to see I posted something that we could agree on.  I like your reasoning that shone through.

Fire, I believe you have some awesome thoughts.  To be truthful tho, I cant' see where you go with the verses you show.  I am very limited in sight I guess.  I always need a lot more explanation to go with verses that are put up, plus some explanation to tie them together.

Tho I like spiritual explanations, I still need a base here in the material to apply the spiritual to.  Sorry.  I did really 'get' your post on the context thread.  That one you came through very clearly on, or perhaps it is just something God has given me better sight on?  shrug.  I can only see what I can see (I yam what I yam, lol)

Bless you both, your love and praise and worship and reverence of the Lord does shine through in all your posts.

Hi Rose,

That was a bit better, I must admit.

I do understand some of the spiritual aspects of this but it still doesn't convince me that there is no future time on earth when those who are resurrected learn righteousness.

Paul said we have the EARNEST of the spirit now.  When did it become the full-fledged Spirit?  When have we ever done the things that Christ did and more?  I don't see that happening.  Tho I know I can commune with God at any given time, I am not in constant conscious communion with Him  I have heard a few reports here and there of strange and 'awe'some things that took place.  But I don't see it happening here.  I've heard it is because those of us in the U.S. just don't have enough faith.  And yet Jesus did his miracles without needing the faith of the people, tho he commented a few times on someone's faith.

I see no one walking into a hospital and just start physically healing the sick and dying.  And we can't heal them spiritually, that's the Holy Spirit who wakens them from the 'dead' to see Jesus, 'life'.

I understand that we each inidvidually go through the ages/night&day in our personal lives, but I don't know of anyone who is anywhere close to where Jesus was in THIS age or any age previous.  There are men who I admire, both living and dead, who have helped me lift a few of the veils from over my eyes, but I don't see that they were yet completed.

I believe that there are also world ages, if you will, that go through this process.  In the beginning, Adam & Eve were like babies, not really knowing right from wrong, until they did something directly against what God directed.  They most likely sinned before that but God had not verbally told them it was wrong.  Then there was the time when men made a semblance of being obedient but most ended up going their own way(Cain and Abel then men living by their own consciences), Then God calls out one man and begins to work with him, to put him under tutors and give him a vision of what it's like to be a son of God, He promised blessings untold and they did get some of those but they could not live up to the letter of the law and reaped the punishments, just as children are at times put under rules it seems they can not bear and receive sometimes rewards and other times chastisement.  Then comes some freedom and now man (perhaps a teenager) gets a bit more responsibility to choose what's right but realize how much his parents do love him.  In that age (time period) there are many who choose to walk as their parents had taught them, others rebel completely as the prodigal son, others try to walk a line in between, going just so far before they go running back to what daddy (or mommy) for confirmation of his 'acceptability' and therefore thinks he is safe.  This is the age I think we are living in.  I don't think we've yet reached the age when we've been awarded the 'sonship'-- the legal adoption-- where we are now considered capable of running God's world as his able representatives.  I'm not being very precise in this explanation, I can't quite pin it all down.  But God used the harvests liberally and we've had a literal fulfillment of Passover, a literal fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts, and I can't see where Tabernacles has yet had a literal fulfillment in the earth.  I believe that will be the next age and then Christ, through His anointed firstfruits will begin opening eyes in large numbers and His 'sons' will do greater miracles than Christ wrought when He walked this earth. 

Plus, I don't see there being an end to ages.  There are a set number of ages in which the Father is working to make sons. But does that mean there are no ages after that?  He is a God of creation, I can't see that there is an end to things to 'do' or purposes to serve, and on and on. The Bible does not explicitly tell us everything about creation or the future, it's even limited in what it says about what we will be like in our new bodies.   I can't see that 'time will be no more';  time has to come where there is change and I'm sorry, living in one eternal moment does not appeal to me.  Time will no longer be an enemy, something that we will run out of.   This sort of came to me some time after I creid out to the Father and asked Him to reveal His character to me, who He was, regardless of how that agreed with the doctrines I had been taught.  That's when I started seeing so much more.  I don't see there being an end to ages, I don't see us, as Mormons think, being creators of our own little universes, I have no clue what it will be like.  But I do think there will always be 'work' for us to do, with constant infilling of the Spirit, no weariness, joy in companionship, who can even comprehend what we will experience in that 'sonlife'? 

So, sorry, I don't see that anyone other than Jesus Christ, has reached the stage where he is ruling or reigning anything, even himself.  I think we're right where God plans for us to be at each and every moment, but there is much more to come.

Can't give chapter and verse on that.  It's just what I intuitively grasp when I meditate on the vastness of the Father.


Peace and blessings

Oh and Fire, don't get down on yourself, just because I didn't get where you were coming from doesn't mean others can't.  I think I saw a lot of excitement and amens from others to many of your posts. 

And sometimes we just get so excited about what we personally see, that pretty much only the awe of the Father comes through, and that's not a bad thing.

It's just the way my mind works.

We all have something to contribute and even if nobody else understands what we attempt to convery, the Holy Spirit does.   Rock on, Fire.

 

  Hi Scarlet Wren ,  :HeartThrob:

  I  do understand your   thoughts sis , not so far off  from mine !
  I know the End is Christ and He is all in ALL 
  you are right it is without end , that  endless Life  :thumbsup: the Spirtit and Truth is  conveyed that way

  I can see that  transfer   from the age of  slave/ under the Law of sin  to the sonship  and age of grace  the Law of Liberty  has set  so many free in Christ Jesus
  Paul still considered himself a  bondservant / slave  , not reaching the perfection / completion yet in the LOVE OF GOD that fullness may be what is lacking still or hidden that we dont understand yet ..
  so I do know what you are saying sis 
  it seems this is not done  till the  Love of God is completly  manifested in us ,  that may be the End   that we are all  groaning for still  :thumbsup:
    God bless ya  .. Rose  :girlheart:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:19:09 AM
Is there something called the "second" ressurection?

The only one spoken of in scripture is "the first", seems that to some this implies that there must be more than one, but I don't see that. There is ~A~ resurrection of both the just and the unjust. And Jesus Christ IS ~THE~ resurrection and ~THE~ life.

So we must, therefore, strive (as did Paul) to know the power of ~HIS~ resurrection. Is as I see it.  :happygrin:

The plant never has any resemblence of the seed that was planted in the first place guys.  Kim . . . I love reading your stuff . .always have.  And I'll even admit, much of it does seem to go over my head, but I've learned to not depend on what I'm "getting" from you and others.  I think you have this same understanding as well.  What I get out of your posts goes over my head, but right into my heart and my head doesn't know why you cause this quickening . .but I do recognize the sound so I soak up everything you say because I do know . .for a fact . . .that your words are seeds of life and more than anything, I want to be a field that produces fruits of life.  

To be honest, I love the fact that I don't "get" it all . . because that means that my mind "has" to be disengaged as you plant His life in me . . .my mind can't argue with you, nor can it interfere.  So it's a pure, unadulterated action.  I'm not worried about the understanding part.  Because as all seeds go, when yours takes root in me, understanding will be birthed once the seed comes to it's maturity in me.

A long winded way of saying . . .I LIKE YOUR STUFF!!!  I especially enjoyed your shower conversation . . that really did mess me up!!! :banana: :banana:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 10:23:35 PM

Quote from: CHB on January 09, 2009, 05:16:46 PM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:19:09 AM
Is there something called the "second" ressurection?

(Rev. 20:4-13) Verse 4 speaks of those who have been killed for the witness of God and them reigning with Christ a thousand years.

In verse 5 it says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION".

If there was a first, then it stands to reason there is a second. Also, in (1Cor. 15:23) it speaks of more than one resurrection at least that is the way I understand it at this point. I have changed my mind many times, so nothing is concrete.   

Rev.Verse 6 says "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years".

I believe this is talking about the Jew's or those in the New Covenant. All those that are Christians up till John. The Jew's are the only ones who will be priests. The book of Revelation was to the Jew's {seven Churches} not Gentiles.

In verses 12 and 13 is a second group of people, still Israelites. If you notice in verse 12 it says "the dead were judged according to their works".  Has to be Israel.

If we are in Christ we have no works, it is Christ working in us. If we are dead in Christ, dead people don't work. When the Father looks at us he sees Christ. The Jew's, and those who keep laws are the ones who will be judged according to their works.

CHB

Ok I'll check into it, only because the wording can sometimes be catchy and sometimes helpful not adding to it actually squeezes us into what it might be saying. I gotta look though, I think I saw A resurrection for both, and yet HE is **THE** resurrection and taking part in the **FIRST** (resurrection) and the words (power of) **HIS** resurrection. So even though HE is the resurrection theres the power (operation of God) concerning Christ's own resurrection.

I goof in my wording, I just saw it in my last post concering two days verses as thousand years AS one day (twice TOLD) not twice IS :grin: And no matter how much I repeat the words I will goof in my wording sometimes and that throws me off in comparing stuff elsewhere if I dont see the day SPLIT between night and day. Though G showed the split more precisely in fewer words I think.

Thanks  :HeartThrob:

Thought I was close enough to the end of the thread that it was safe to comment.  :laughing7:  Guess I should have kept reading so as not to repeat what ya already said.  :grin:

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2009, 08:07:26 PM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:19:09 AM
Is there something called the "second" ressurection?

The only one spoken of in scripture is "the first", seems that to some this implies that there must be more than one, but I don't see that. There is ~A~ resurrection of both the just and the unjust. And Jesus Christ IS ~THE~ resurrection and ~THE~ life.

So we must, therefore, strive (as did Paul) to know the power of ~HIS~ resurrection. Is as I see it.  :happygrin:

About time too :laughing7:

the Unjust :icon_flower:

Like those who ARE DEAD in HIM ,those Without , awaiting their time to Rise from Sleep :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Taffy on January 10, 2009, 08:19:12 PM

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2009, 08:07:26 PM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:19:09 AM
Is there something called the "second" ressurection?

The only one spoken of in scripture is "the first", seems that to some this implies that there must be more than one, but I don't see that. There is ~A~ resurrection of both the just and the unjust. And Jesus Christ IS ~THE~ resurrection and ~THE~ life.

So we must, therefore, strive (as did Paul) to know the power of ~HIS~ resurrection. Is as I see it.  :happygrin:

About time too :laughing7:

Like those who ARE DEAD in HIM ,those Without , awaiting their time to Rise from Sleep :HeartThrob:

Hey man, I had movies to make.  :mrflo:

Took me some time to read through this thread, too. Man that Fireinfolding can be some L-O-N-G-W-I-N-D-E-D, huh?  :grin: And that Chrissie person.   :blah: I just skipped over those. :winkgrin:

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2009, 08:34:13 PM

Quote from: Taffy on January 10, 2009, 08:19:12 PM

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2009, 08:07:26 PM

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 09, 2009, 03:19:09 AM
Is there something called the "second" ressurection?

The only one spoken of in scripture is "the first", seems that to some this implies that there must be more than one, but I don't see that. There is ~A~ resurrection of both the just and the unjust. And Jesus Christ IS ~THE~ resurrection and ~THE~ life.

So we must, therefore, strive (as did Paul) to know the power of ~HIS~ resurrection. Is as I see it.  :happygrin:

About time too :laughing7:

Like those who ARE DEAD in HIM ,those Without , awaiting their time to Rise from Sleep :HeartThrob:

Hey man, I had movies to make.  :mrflo:

Took me some time to read through this thread, too. Man that Fireinfolding can be some L-O-N-G-W-I-N-D-E-D, huh?  :grin: And that Chrissie person.   :blah: I just skipped over those. :winkgrin:

And Good Movies too Chris    :HeartThrob:    , showed em to the Family , Now Our children are out signing autographs :icon_flower:

Well as ya a Bloke, we Know how the female species enjoy to talk ..I had two cups of tea reading the last one kimmy made, but there again shes been quiet for soooo long its  really nice to see her chatting some. :HeartThrob:


Now , I know you Likie to talk some too ...ya posts get longer every time I read em ...well they used too :HeartThrob:


As for Us men folk, Nat does enough Talking for most of us :laughing7: he keeps saying hes done...Ill believe that when I see it :icon_king:

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Fireinfolding on January 10, 2009, 09:47:19 AM
......

Maybe this will help (its not by me) by my freind Chrissie, though I believe this is an older one it might be somewhat easier to see some of the connections, shes much better at comunicating stuff then I am. 

...

Um, well, yep, that was OLD!! But I remember well the day I posted it at OGR.  :grin:

I should go through all of that "old" stuff and see if any of it needs to be 'tweaked' or even changed because of more recent studies.

I just skimmed over that one and I don't think that anything has changed for me concerning it. If anything I think that, so far, all of the 'new' things that I have learned since then have supported that position. So I could probably add more "support" to it, though I would hate to make it even longer. Sheesh!! Perhaps I could find a way to shorten it first.  :grin: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Chris on January 10, 2009, 08:07:26 PM
So we must, therefore, strive (as did Paul) to know the power of ~HIS~ resurrection. Is as I see it.  :happygrin:

:cloud9: Amen. What I love about this scripture is the wording (as in all of it) order is important and not accidental.

Phillipians 3: 10-11 - That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;  11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Notice that Paul said he wants to know the power of the resurrection BEFORE he is made conformable unto his death, and before he has resurrected FROM the dead. That, almost sounds backwards to the carnal mindset, as how could one REALLY know the power of the resurrection before the fact?

The power of the resurrection is His love. Blessings....