I feel the need now, I have not read one of the post on this subject. I want to say how I understand the Book of Revelation.
I have know and followed Tentmaker for some time. I find it great and full of warmth.
I just signed off on a bible/christian..debate forum that had me going mad/insane trying to show how we do not have free will......well i logged off.
The Book of Revelation as it is given to me to understand, the uncovering/manifestation of Jesus Christ in me, in my walk NOW. I do not see it as a book of prophetic stuff to come, yet it is, in me; but an inworking in me NOW. It is a work being done to those saints who have ears to hear. I believe this.
The Book of Revelation, as Bro. Ray Prinzing has said is a Positive Book, I truely believe that.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
:cloud9: I agree. :thumbsup: The key is in the very first line.......the revelation of, Jesus Christ. Where is He now? In us. So where is He being revealed from? In us. Blessings...
the revelation OF
or
the revelation FROM
Translations differ on that. I think that one word can make quite a difference.
One thing that stands out to me in the first verse is the words "which must SHORTLY come to past".
(Rev. 22:6-20) middle of verse. "Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants THE THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY BE DONE".
(Verse 7) behold I come quickly.
(Verse 10) FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.
(Verse 20) He which testifieth these things saith, surely I come quickly
(Rev 22:16) "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the Churches". This book was for the 7 Churches which were all Jewish.
I wonder if most of these things in Revelation hasn't already come to pass? Did Jesus come back in John's day and resurrect all the saints or firstfruits and take them along with those who were living at that time as Paul says in (1Thess. 4:17)?
I have really wrestled with this question for some time.
If this happened, and I do not know for sure if it did but a lot of scriptures would make more sense if it were true.
Remember when Jesus told one of the disciples that if John tarried till he came what was that to them? John was the last apostle to be alive when Jesus came back if this is the case.
Just some things running through my mind.
CHB
I just went through about 25 translations and they all read OF. I will continue to look, but should there only be 1 or 2 that read FROM, I will use OF being it is used more.
I understand that Jesus Christ is being revealed IN me. The speaking of "to come to pass quickly;" happens quickly as I, or you begin to understand. It may be, that that coming will stop, and it does stop being revealed, when I walk out of this spirit of revelation with earthy thoughts, taking my eyes off Him, and I am assured everyday that I do take my eyes off Him, which is very dishearting. It is a great mystery to me, blessed and full of joy, but can be horrifying and give me great fear as well when the fighting is going.
But I have come to understand that the apocalypse is fought in my heavenlies. Not just me, but in all the saints in all their heavenlies, it is from the overcoming that strength is drawn and forged.
This war that is being fought will bring the adversary down, death and the grave are brought to an end. There is Victory IN Jesus as I am brought through my lake of fire, where the purging out takes place, as the fire of God is turned up. Glory! I have come to find that I am a hard case, but HE LOVES ME just the same.
I no longer accept that this last Book of the Book as the"end of the world" book of earthy prophecy.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 08, 2010, 07:08:37 PM
I just went through about 25 translations and they all read OF. I will continue to look, but should there only be 1 or 2 that read FROM, I will use OF being it is used more.
OF is used far more often. That's a fact.
FROM is used by CB and TNIV
(CEV) This is what God showed to Jesus Christ, so that he could tell his servants what must happen soon. Christ then sent his angel with the message to his servant John.
(WNT) The revelation given by Jesus Christ, which God granted Him, that He might make known to His servants certain events which must shortly come to pass: and He sent His angel and communicated it to His servant John.
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants...
--Rev 1
[his]"servants"
G1401
δουλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.
This is a link to the Greek Interlinear, including the specific Greek word(s) and showing the breakdown of the translation - http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev1.pdf
Molly I found this to be interesting in a study I was making on soul/spirit.
You referenced "servants" G1401=slaves.
the only time "slaves" is used is Rev. 18:13 and in Strongs "slaves" G4983(soma) which when followed I found that "save(d)" G4982(sozo) and "body" G4983(soma)
Body, slaves, and save(d) all I find very interesting. Peace
:dsunny:
Quote from: Molly on May 08, 2010, 08:06:21 PM
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants...
--Rev 1
[his]"servants"
G1401
δουλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.
:cloud9: Interesting the revelation of Him is shown unto His SERVANTS......
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 08, 2010, 08:51:31 PM
Molly I found this to be interesting in a study I was making on soul/spirit.
You referenced "servants" G1401=slaves.
the only time "slaves" is used is Rev. 18:13 and in Strongs "slaves" G4983(soma) which when followed I found that "save(d)" G4982(sozo) and "body" G4983(soma)
Body, slaves, and save(d) all I find very interesting. Peace
:cloud9: Particularly since it talks about whatever you give yourself over to serve, you are it's slave, whether it be sin, or the Lord. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 09, 2010, 04:18:00 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 08, 2010, 08:51:31 PM
Molly I found this to be interesting in a study I was making on soul/spirit.
You referenced "servants" G1401=slaves.
the only time "slaves" is used is Rev. 18:13 and in Strongs "slaves" G4983(soma) which when followed I found that "save(d)" G4982(sozo) and "body" G4983(soma)
Body, slaves, and save(d) all I find very interesting. Peace
:cloud9: Particularly since it talks about whatever you give yourself over to serve, you are it's slave, whether it be sin, or the Lord. Blessings....
Yes, it is interesting. We already have [access to] the mind of Christ. What needs to be saved is the body? It's almost enough to make one a Puritan. :laughing7:
soma--greek, 'body'
somatic [english]
1. Of, relating to, or affecting the body, especially as distinguished from a body part, the mind, or the environment; corporeal or physical. See Synonyms at bodily.
Somatic: 1. Relating to the body. a. As distinguished from the mind (the psyche).
Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."bodies"G4983
σῶμα
sōmaso'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily,
body, slave.G4982σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe");
to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well,
be (make) whole.
And this is literal-- :mshock:
Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
GLORY!
:cloud9: We are saved/spirit/outer court
We are being saved/soul/inner court
We are going to be saved/body/Holy of holies
This is being made every whit whole. The reason death could not hold Him is because He had already accomplished this before He ever went to the cross, which is what the mount of Transfiguration was displaying.
The reason His garments shone, is because it was a natural witness for what had already happened spiritually. The inner man who is light and life, shone thru the "denser" natural man and his garments (the soul is the "garment" of the spirit). He didn't have any garments spotted (darkened) by the flesh/soulish things.
This is why it says to take care about your eye not being darkness too. The eye speaks of understanding that comes to us via the Spirit in the twinkling of an EYE. Also ties in with being changed (as we see/perceive thru the Spirit) from glory to glory.
As we see/perceive Him as He is NOW, the darkness brought about by the union of the carnal mind and the flesh, is consumed by the light of the mind of Christ and He is formed in us. Blessings....
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
"the redemption"
G629
ἀπολύτρωσις
apolutrōsis
ap-ol-oo'-tro-sis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.
1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
--Mat 17
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
--Mat 17
8To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, 10so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.
--Eph 3
"the plan"
G2842
κοινωνία
koinōnia
koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
[of the] "mystery"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
The Book of revelation was written as a church document by John, it was as, was Ezekiel, to be read side by side with Ezekiel, to give great reassurance and confidence to the Churches.
It was the promise of Jesus's defeat of the Old Covenant and the judgement that was about to take place upon Jerusalem for her apostasy. This was fulfilled in 70AD.
This isn't an internal spiritual walk book, it is a covenant legal document declaring the end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new.
The only way to understand this book, you need to understand the rest of the bible....seems logical :laughing7:
It's not about what going on in me, it about what went on to the Hebrews for their part in the old covenant.
Quote from: Dallas on May 10, 2010, 06:26:31 PMThis isn't an internal spiritual walk book, it is a covenant legal document declaring the end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new.
:cloud9: Actually, it's both. Blessings....
QuoteThis isn't an internal spiritual walk book, it is a covenant legal document declaring the end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new.
Actually, it's both. Blessings....
Just because I say Moby Dick is a spiritual book doesn't make it so. Just because you apply the words in the Book of Revelation as an internal personal thing doesn't mean that's what it's literary purpose is.
Peace.
Quote from: Dallas on May 10, 2010, 09:39:12 PM
QuoteThis isn't an internal spiritual walk book, it is a covenant legal document declaring the end of the old covenant and the establishment of the new.
Actually, it's both. Blessings....
Just because I say Moby Dick is a spiritual book doesn't make it so. Just because you apply the words in the Book of Revelation as an internal personal thing doesn't mean that's what it's literary purpose is.
Peace.
:cloud9: That's true......just saying doesn't make it so, unless of course, God said it. But EXPERIENCING it via the HS DOES make it so.
Joel 2 was fulfilled both naturally and spiritually on the day of Pentecost and it continues to be fulfilled the same way. What He speaks, He fulfills. Passover and the other feasts are fulfilled by the hand of the HS also. The Word is alive. Blessings....
QuoteThat's true......just saying doesn't make it so, unless of course, God said it. But EXPERIENCING it via the HS DOES make it so.
Joel 2 was fulfilled both naturally and spiritually on the day of Pentecost and it continues to be fulfilled the same way. What He speaks, He fulfills. Passover and the other feasts are fulfilled by the hand of the HS also. The Word is alive. Blessings....
Right, Joel 2 WAS fulfilled...not continual fulfilling. Why? Because it was an event, not a spiritual trueism. There wasn't a natural and spiritual, there was an event.
The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism. No different than people who believe that Odin gives them power, or Buddists who recieve visions. The reality seems second nature and the subjective seems to hold priority.
A true, historical and non-mystical usage of Revelation is the base for our understanding....then mystics can come in and make it mean whatever they want.
Does this help at all - that every true "revelation" will line up with the scriptures? The Holy Spirit will never reveal anything that is against the scriptures, whereas my imagination very well might (and has).
God's logos, rhema, and Word-made-flesh all agree - it's our subjective understandings with which we must be careful, be sure they "check out".
Yet we have this-
For God's Word is continually living and effective in operation; it can cut much better than any two-edged sword; it can penetrate even as far as to divide both the sentient being and the spirit into parts, both their outer connective part and their deepest inner parts; and it can judge the feelings and thoughts of the heart. Heb. 4:12
Quote from: Dallas on May 10, 2010, 10:20:21 PM
The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism.
Dallas, can you explain the Holy Spirit?
That statement precludes you from being a Christian.
Quote from: Dallas on May 10, 2010, 10:20:21 PM
QuoteThat's true......just saying doesn't make it so, unless of course, God said it. But EXPERIENCING it via the HS DOES make it so.
Joel 2 was fulfilled both naturally and spiritually on the day of Pentecost and it continues to be fulfilled the same way. What He speaks, He fulfills. Passover and the other feasts are fulfilled by the hand of the HS also. The Word is alive. Blessings....
Right, Joel 2 WAS fulfilled...not continual fulfilling. Why? Because it was an event, not a spiritual trueism. There wasn't a natural and spiritual, there was an event.
The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism. No different than people who believe that Odin gives them power, or Buddists who recieve visions. The reality seems second nature and the subjective seems to hold priority.
A true, historical and non-mystical usage of Revelation is the base for our understanding....then mystics can come in and make it mean whatever they want.
:cloud9: It was a prophesied under the inspiration of the HS event, which the HS then fulfilled in the 120, spiritually. And because there was not one covenant for the early church and another for all those that came after, it STILL fulfills it spiritually to the present day. If He did not, then He would be a respecter of persons.
If receiving things from the HS is subjective mysticism, then the WHOLE BOOK is subjective mysticism. Or don't you believe it was inspired by the HS? And Odin and Buddist's experiences are the counterfeit of the reality found in the workings of the HS among believers.
That there is hidden wisdom contained that can only be revealed by the HS, is well known among Hebrew scholars. It has been accepted by them that pardes is the only way to fully and fruitfully understand scriptures. Below is what that means. Blessings....
"The system of hebraic understanding used by all hebrew prophets and scholars was and remains a system that goes by the acronym of PARDES whic stands for PASHAT/ Literal primary meaning, REMEZ/Hints in the text of something deeper, DRASH/ The added understanding that can only be gleaned by parables, riddles, stories etc and SOD/ Secrets and mysteries which are mysterious underlying secrets revealed in text."
What I am saying is, you and I are subject to our own mystical idealism and personal ideologies and doctrines. We are people who move and flow based on who we are and how we see things and how we "interpret" things...including what we call Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit Revelation.
What you experience and call HS revelation could simply be a personal understanding, and that will be based on where you are internaly at the moment. That can have nothing to do with the Holy Ghost revelation and just be personal insight.
That's howcome it's soooooo important not to re-issue what the base literary use of scripture is. The word is written so it won't be changed...we change and reflect differently on the same words...but the same words need to remain the same and in thier same origins.
QuoteThat statement precludes you from being a Christian.
-Beloved Servant
This is what I am talking about....because it does proclude me in his world, based on his HS revelation...then on and on with the different HS revelations.
The word with in, the presence of Jesus within, is continually at work, but the written doesn't change...
(Of course I understand different translations, not what I'm talking about obviously)
I'm sorry Dallas,
But there are so many of your posts that I simply no not understand.
Like this statement from you: "The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism."
Whatever does it mean?
QuoteI'm sorry Dallas,
But there are so many of your posts that I simply no not understand.
Like this statement from you: "The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism."
Whatever does it mean?
The idea (philosophy) of, "I recieve things via the HS," is subjective mysticism.
QuoteWhat I am saying is, you and I are subject to our own mystical idealism and personal ideologies and doctrines. We are people who move and flow based on who we are and how we see things and how we "interpret" things...including what we call Holy Spirit and Holy Spirit Revelation.
What you experience and call HS revelation could simply be a personal understanding, and that will be based on where you are internaly at the moment. That can have nothing to do with the Holy Ghost revelation and just be personal insight.
That's howcome it's soooooo important not to re-issue what the base literary use of scripture is. The word is written so it won't be changed...we change and reflect differently on the same words...but the same words need to remain the same and in thier same origins.
:cloud9: Well, then call me a "mystic", because I receive things from the HS.
Paul spent 14 years in Arabia receiving from the HS after he got knocked off his donkey, before he ever made himself known to the other apostles and ended up writing 3/4 of the NT.
The Word and the Spirit are alive and well, and work together to impart that life as revelation. Blessings...
QuoteWell, then call me a "mystic", because I receive things from the HS.
Paul spent 14 years in Arabia receiving from the HS after he got knocked off his donkey, before he ever made himself known to the other apostles and ended up writing 3/4 of the NT.
The Word and the Spirit are alive and well, and work together to impart that life as revelation. Blessings...
Paul also had 40 years of Hebrew Pharisitical schooling. Just to identify a small part of that, just to be called a pharisee you had to have the whole Torah memorized, all five books.
Paul considered himself a Pharisee of Pharisees, he wasn't just some religous follower he was a highly decorated leader of the group. He lead movements, watched over stonings and as you mentioned on his way to Damascus in which he was comminsioned worthy enough and with enough authority to teach concearning other Pharisees.
He was firmly established in knowledge of the bible, and was through the written letter that Paul was taught from. It was the written letter her established his teachings and was the written letter that proved to him, Jesus was the Christ.
:cloud9: Absolutely; no disagreement about his credentials.......and that provided the framework of "bones" for the Spirit to clothe with "flesh", the flesh of being IN CHRIST, a spiritual principle. The scriptures are as bones, which is why not a bone of His was broken. Blessings....
Romans 8:14 (NKJV)
14; For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
John 16: (NKJV)
13; However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
1 Corinthians 14: (NKJV)
33; For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
Romans 8: (NKJV)
26; Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Ephesians 3: (NKJV)
16; that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,
Galatians 5: (NKJV)
22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Hebrews 4: (CLV)
12; For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit, both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart.
John 16; (CLV)
13 Yet whenever that may be coming -- the spirit of truth --it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will not be speaking from itself, but whatsoever it should be hearing will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you.
14 That will be glorifying Me, seeing that of Mine will it be getting, and informing you.
15 All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. Therefore I said to you that of Mine is it getting, and will be informing you.
16 "A little, and no longer are you beholding Me; and again, a little, and you shall be seeing Me."
So then, without biblical understanding, we are to live according to every breath on our ear, as long as we can bend scripture to sound good.
A nice reliable means of wisdom life.
:cloud9: The Word witnesses the Spirit and the Spirit witnesses the Word. Blessings....
John 10:
26; But you are not believing, seeing that you are not of My sheep, according as I said to you.
27; "My sheep are hearing My voice, and I know them, and they are following Me.
28; And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand.
29; My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to be snatching them out of My Father's hand.
30; I and the Father, We are one."
31; Again, then, the Jews bear stones that they should be stoning Him.
QuoteThe Word witnesses the Spirit and the Spirit witnesses the Word. Blessings....
Right, and to deny the origon of Revelation's historical and make it an internal goes against the witness of the written word. For it's a document dealing with Hebrew covenant, not internal life.
So you deny yourself.
:cloud9: The WHOLE WORD is Spirit, written to your spirit.
"Lowering" it into natural representations did not change It's spiritual or heavenly origin and content, for how can it be any less than what it is?
Were you changed internally by the receiving of the natural or by the impartation of the Spiritual? Having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh/natural?
The letter is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, who leads us to the Father, WHO IS SPIRIT. There is a difference in knowing ABOUT Him and knowing HIM. The Spirit is to teach us all things and bring all things to our remembrance.
Dallas said, "For it's a document dealing with Hebrew covenant, not internal life."
And you think John needed to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, complete with angels, to receive concerning Hebrew covenant?Blessings....
All word: dry up.
All spirit: blow up.
Word and spirit: grow up!
"The Gulf appears to be bleeding. Will we ever be able to stem the tide? Will we ever be able to put a stop to this? Will the Gulf ever heal? As far as you can see on the horizon now, there's these mats of this reddish, pink sheen. It was easy to find our way back to shore. All we had to do was follow the red."
--Pilot flying over the catastrophic oil spill
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
--Rev 8
Quote from: reFORMer on May 11, 2010, 06:58:35 AM
All word: dry up.
All spirit: blow up.
Word and spirit: grow up!
:cloud9: AMEN :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on May 11, 2010, 08:55:46 AM
"The Gulf appears to be bleeding. Will we ever be able to stem the tide? Will we ever be able to put a stop to this? Will the Gulf ever heal? As far as you can see on the horizon now, there's these mats of this reddish, pink sheen. It was easy to find our way back to shore. All we had to do was follow the red."
--Pilot flying over the catastrophic oil spill
8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
--Rev 8
:cloud9: It's awful, isn't it? I've been reading some reports on it, and as usual, there's a cover-up of misinformation to try to downplay the seriousness of the problem.
Once again, greed runs rampant over common sense. You dig a hole with 5000 feet of water over it, things are not guaranteed to go well with that.
I've seen discussions of placing a bomb down there in the hopes it will seal up this monstrous size cavern they created. God only knows what THAT could do at that depth. :mshock: Blessings....
The accuracy of that description was uncanny--a burning mountain being cast into the sea and the sea becoming blood. I can only imagine what the vision of the real event would look like to someone in the first century. He'd have no idea what he was seeing and could only describe what it looked like to him. :mshock:
Quote from: Cardinal on May 09, 2010, 06:51:43 PM
As we see/perceive Him as He is NOW, the darkness brought about by the union of the carnal mind and the flesh, is consumed by the light of the mind of Christ and He is formed in us. Blessings....
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:17-18)
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light,
as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
(1Jn 1:6-7)
And He Who is sitting on the throne said, "Lo! New am I making all!And He is saying, "Write, for these sayings are faithful and true."
(Rev 21:5)
:boogie:
What is "spirit" that is a question. I can ask a person what is spirit and the answers vary, ghosts, fiction, storys, spiritulism, paranormal, myths, mysticism. Spirit is spirit.
It is my reasoning, that a good many believers/saints speak of the Holy Spirit but are unaware of His realm. I have come to understand and believe through the Spirit
Heb 11:1 Now faith( persuasion) is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.
God is Spirit, the word of God is written in the Book, should it remain the lettter...it kills (IICor.3:6).
The words in spirit live and are alive, bringing life to the reader in spirit.
Spirit is God, He dwells in that realm, His kingdom; it is hard to put into words but that is where the saints need to sit more each hour, in that lofty place (Heaven) where in is our citizenship
Php 3:20 "We, however, are free citizens of Heaven, and we are waiting with longing expectation for the coming from Heaven of a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ,"
Spirit is where the saints need live and walk. Spirit is as much substance as a rock, your hand, a hug from a loved one, spirit is NOT air. I hope the Lord had me to be understood by one.
:cloud9: Amen, eaglesway and Micah! :thumbsup: Blessings....
QuoteAnd you think John needed to be in the Spirit on the Lord's day, complete with angels, to receive concerning Hebrew covenant?Blessings....
Absolutley, just like all other great spiritual thing that happened to Israel. King Saul had the spirit yet he fell anyway, David had the spirit and acted corruptly though they both recieved concearning the Covenant.
Moses had quite the spiritual experiences with God, and all the prophets who were concearning the Hebrew people under covenant, and Abraham whom through quite a spiritual event was the covenant established.
Why would it stop until the final declaration? Why would it be different until the end?
That's what Revelation is, an offical legal document concearning the covenant. And it was just as inspired as was the rest of the bible, through spirit.
Quote from: Dallas on May 10, 2010, 10:20:21 PM
QuoteThat's true......just saying doesn't make it so, unless of course, God said it. But EXPERIENCING it via the HS DOES make it so.
Joel 2 was fulfilled both naturally and spiritually on the day of Pentecost and it continues to be fulfilled the same way. What He speaks, He fulfills. Passover and the other feasts are fulfilled by the hand of the HS also. The Word is alive. Blessings....
Right, Joel 2 WAS fulfilled...not continual fulfilling. Why? Because it was an event, not a spiritual trueism. There wasn't a natural and spiritual, there was an event.
The whole idea that i recieve things via the HS is subjective mysticism. No different than people who believe that Odin gives them power, or Buddists who recieve visions. The reality seems second nature and the subjective seems to hold priority.
A true, historical and non-mystical usage of Revelation is the base for our understanding....then mystics can come in and make it mean whatever they want.
Whether "the big way," consuming large quantities of the written Word, book by book as the Lord has given it to us, or "the little way," examining a word or phrase, even the letters of it, the way to use Scripture is to enter into His presence. When He manifests, stop reading, let go of everything and let Him draw you into Himself. In a little while, venture to meditate with His presence on what it was that you were considering at the time, unless He reveals to you another intent.
The foremost use of Scripture by the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus within us. "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Cr 3:18 KJV) If we are not changed into His image and likeness, then the purpose of God in making us is not fulfilled. God is bringing forth a many-membered likeness of Himself in mankind. When accomplished to His satisfaction, He will raise up that image to inherit all things and all things are revealed in the light of its rising.
Preterist, Historicist, Futurist are all "outer court" understandings of "The Book of Revelation" because they are looking for carnal enactments on the stage of world history. When adjusted to the truth, all these perspectives have some validity. But, Symbolic understandings apply the words to our relationship with God so continue to be profitable in aligning our souls with the Spirit which draws the body to follow. If there is nothing "mystical" or "subjective" happening when you read Scripture you may need to start over at the beginning.
Moby Dick is to be understood through its symbolism. That is one of the profound features of what many consider to be "The" great American novel. Working on
Billy Bud most of his life, the same author intended him to represent Christ. How much more ought the Spirit of prophecy testify of Jesus through Scripture, the Jesus that is enthroned within us, His temple! You yourself are a living epistle from Christ. Your own life is to symbolically represent the gospel and the working out of salvation, manifesting the presence of God in the earth.
Quote from: reFORMer on May 12, 2010, 06:50:51 AM
The foremost use of Scripture by the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus within us. "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2Cr 3:18 KJV) If we are not changed into His image and likeness, then the purpose of God in making us is not fulfilled. God is bringing forth a many-membered likeness of Himself in mankind. When accomplished to His satisfaction, He will raise up that image to inherit all things and all things are revealed in the light of its rising.
Preterist, Historicist, Futurist are all "outer court" understandings of "The Book of Revelation" because they are looking for carnal enactments on the stage of world history. When adjusted to the truth, all these perspectives have some validity. But, Symbolic understandings apply the words to our relationship with God so continue to be profitable in aligning our souls with the Spirit which draws the body to follow. If there is nothing "mystical" or "subjective" happening when you read Scripture you may need to start over at the beginning.
amen
:cloud9: Make that 2 Amen's........Blessings....
Amen.
1 Now this know, that in the last days perilous periods will be present,
2 for men will be selfish, fond of money, ostentatious, proud, calumniators, stubborn to parents, ungrateful, malign,
3 without natural affection, implacable, adversaries, uncontrollable, fierce, averse to the good,
4 traitors, rash, conceited, fond of their own gratification rather than fond of God;
5 having a form of devoutness, yet denying its power.
6 These, also, shun. For of these are those who are slipping into homes and are leading into captivity little women, heaped with sins, being led by various lusts and gratifications,
7 always learning and yet not at any time able to come into a realization of the truth.
"In the Last Days, God is
going to shake everything
that can be shaken so that only that which can not be shaken may remain."
-- Heb 12:26-27
Quote from: Dallas on May 11, 2010, 03:41:32 AM
QuoteThe Word witnesses the Spirit and the Spirit witnesses the Word. Blessings....
Right, and to deny the origon of Revelation's historical and make it an internal goes against the witness of the written word. For it's a document dealing with Hebrew covenant, not internal life.
So you deny yourself.
What does what you said mean? "origin of Revelation's historical"?
QuoteWhat does what you said mean? "origin of Revelation's historical"?
The origonal literary use of Revelation is the historical situation of Jerusalem and their destruction in AD70.
This is no longer considered a religous view, but as historical fact.
I have long since given up on historical facts when it comes to religion and theology. I do not believe that the Book is a book that concerns itself with historical facts. I believe man has to have those historical facts to make him believe.
Should man find what he claims to be Noe's ark I would not believe man; if Noe's ark is found, then the book is false, I say the same of the Ark of the Covenant.
God is Spirit and Jesus is my Redeemer. From Genesis to Revelation the Book is food spiritual food for the saints and believers to grow up in Christ and He is us; it is for our walk through the valley of death, His words are my rod and staff.
No I do not believe in historical facts when it comes the The Book.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
For the Sons of Korah, Contemplating A Song of Darlings- My heart bubbles over with good words; I shall recite my compositions concerning the King; My tongue is the pen of a swift scribe."
(Psa 45:1)
Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."
(Joh 3:3)
BEHOLD I am making all things new!
Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten of water and of spirit, he can not be entering into the kingdom of God."
(Joh 3:5)
And the spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' and let him who hears say, 'Come !' And let him who is thirsty come. Let whosoever wills, drink freely of the water of life."
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
(Joh 3:8)
Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
My joy is full. Nothing can resist the will of the Almighty Creator and the Lamb. Alpha and Omega. All things gathered into one. That God may be all in all.
Begin with us Lord Jesus!
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb: in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, is a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations; and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him, and they shall see His face, and His name is upon their foreheads, and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign--to the ages of the ages.(Rev 22:1-5)
If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have koinonea together, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin
`A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; according as I did love you, that ye also love one another; in this shall all know that ye are my disciples, if ye may have love one to another.' (Joh 13:34-35)
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
QuoteI have long since given up on historical facts when it comes to religion and theology. I do not believe that the Book is a book that concerns itself with historical facts.
That's great! So that means the bible doesn't need to be true, or historically accurate because jeez, that makes things much easier to invent strange and fantastical new doctrines!
Seriously, if your base of knowledge isn't based on truth it's not based on anything, and so validates your beliefs as, meaningless.
Without reality the man in the moon is real...honestly I hope you re-read what you said.
QuoteNo I do not believe in historical facts when it comes the The Book.
Have you ever read the bible, it's the HISTORY of a people! The Jews don't read it as a spiritual book, it's thier nations HISTORY. Just as you went to school to learn about you nations history the Jews history book is the bible. If it's historically inaccurate then so is the claims made in it and your beliefs are as false as worshiping a peice of wood.
Quote from: Dallas on May 14, 2010, 01:45:03 AM
QuoteI have long since given up on historical facts when it comes to religion and theology. I do not believe that the Book is a book that concerns itself with historical facts.
That's great! So that means the bible doesn't need to be true, or historically accurate because jeez, that makes things much easier to invent strange and fantastical new doctrines!
Friend, I believe the err is when you use words like "history and facts" as tho they are truth. The Book is real and becomes alive and nourishing, to the one who is seeking with a spirit hunger.
Seriously, if your base of knowledge isn't based on truth it's not based on anything, and so validates your beliefs as, meaningless.
Without reality the man in the moon is real...honestly I hope you re-read what you said.
QuoteNo I do not believe in historical facts when it comes the The Book.
Have you ever read the bible, it's the HISTORY of a people! The Jews don't read it as a spiritual book, it's thier nations HISTORY. Just as you went to school to learn about you nations history the Jews history book is the bible. If it's historically inaccurate then so is the claims made in it and your beliefs are as false as worshiping a peice of wood.
I am quite sure to the Jewish people the book is history and is accurate for their belief, BUT the WORD of GOD through His Holy Spirit has much to offer the spirit filled believer in Jesus Christ. I believe all there history is spiritual food for the believer.
Quote from: Dallas on May 14, 2010, 06:39:18 AM
QuoteI believe all there history is spiritual food for the believer.
But you deny the reality of the writtings....
Mystisicm, next we are going to be using tarot and reading tea leaves too...this site is getting hokey :sigh:
You my friend accept the Bible as a history book and a religious guide. As for myself it is a Book of Life, full of treasures and riches for my spirit walk, yes the words in the Book are Spirit. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit which gives Life. The flesh confers no benefit whatever.
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and are Life.
good post, micah.
:cloud9: AMEN Micah.... :thumbsup:
But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
(2Co 3:14-15)
I know that there are rules to this forum, but please remember that Humans all have their thinking mind to work with. and hopefully lead by the Spirit of the Father, (God). That said-
Gary, @ tentmaker.org has much to say about how the words are written in the KJV. which is what most people have started with and formed their belief system on. Which is not even close to being perfect in UR's understanding. So when anyone says that they do not believe that the "book" is not history , and is for us to use for other things (Spiritual) or other, who are we to judge.
think of all the systems that the mother church made up out of their bible, and the KJV too.
So what that person said about it not being historical fact is ok with me too.
We all know that "ALL HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE WINNERS" Just like in our own history of the USA , which is some real messed up "facts" in history. and a lot of out and out Lies. by our own government....
A NEW ORDER HAS BEGUN IN AMERICA. for better or worse
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on May 26, 2010, 12:53:55 PMthink of all the systems that the mother church made up out of their bible, and the KJV too.
I'm getting more and more convinced it are not really translation errors. Pagan beliefs slipped in an that why thing are translated wrong on purpose. Partly. :2c:
Our mother is the New Jerusalem from above, who is free. The sooner someone understands the difference between that harlot, Babylon, and the city of God that is "coming down out of the heavens adorned as a Bride for the Bridegroom- dressed in fine linen, the righteous acts of the saints"; the sooner they will understand "His kind intention which He purposed in Himself", the summing up of all things in Christ.
The histories of the "churches" (often synagogues of Satan, bearing living names but more like open graves in the night) of men do not often include the true stories of the "ecclesia" of God, called out to suffer with Him, outside the camp. Babylon means "confusion" or "confusion by mixture". As WW posted, the pagan mixture of the harlot is responsible for most translation issues. They translated as they had been taught, and ruled, by the "confused". Those who trace their heritage through that confusion are also "confused".
The confusion vanishes, when "the veil" is removed- and we behold His face in single hearted love of our betrothal. Then we are truly "bound to Christ" in "first love". Rember in the song of Solomon how the Shulamite girl wanders the street being cuffed about by the watchmen who cannot understand her passionate search for her "beloved"? This is the fate of all who "Come out of her".
First the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God sets us free from confusion and binds us to Christ as the Bride. Then we join the Wedding Feast. We must have our wicks trimmed(prophetic awareness, "Today, if you hear His voice- Everyday). hen we must have our vessel full of oil(walk in the Spirit, be ye filled with the Spirit). Then we become the Lamp set on the Lampstand. Our testimony agrees with the testimony of the Spirit. The Spirit and the Bride say "Come, drink freely of the water of life!"
Here, I think I can copy an article that says it much more clear in "todays" thinking. "and the mother I was referring too is The Universal Church i.e. the Catholics"
Try this on for Light.
From Lenny's Meditations, 7/7/01
Neosho, MO
Let's talk about being born again. First of all, the words "born again" means that you were born spiritually at one time, but you died, and now you have been born over again. We were as spirits with God in the eternal, and then when we came into our earthen vessels, the earthen vessels destroyed our spirit and so our spirit became dormant within the earthen vessel and now the born again experience is just like the experience a man and woman have when they have intercourse. The sperm enters into the dormant egg that is within the womb and impregnates that egg. What I want you to see is that once that egg is impregnated, the sperm does not leave the egg, but the sperm has to stay in the egg and develop with the egg into a new creation, a new being. The egg itself cannot do that. It takes the egg and the sperm together to do that. It is the same thing in the born again experience. Our spirit is that dormant egg within our physical being and the Holy Spirit comes and impregnates our spirit, the egg, and the Holy Spirit has to stay there together with our spirit to develop into a new creation.
So many people think that it is just we alone who are trying to develop as Christians, but that is not true. It is the Holy Spirit and our spirit together that is being created into a new being by God. "Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come" (2 Cor. 5:17, RSV). Up to this point, the egg was dormant within our physical being and it had to be totally controlled and ruled by our physical being, but now, as the egg has been impregnated and there is a born again experience, we have put off these things of the natural body. The natural has nothing to do with this born again creation that is being formed within our physical body. Our physical body has now become the womb, inside of which, this new spiritual being is being developed. It is not just God in us and it is not just our spirit, but it is a combination of our spirit and God's Spirit developing within us, bringing forth a new creation. A spiritual wonder is being formed and developed and increased within us to the point where we are birthed forth as a total new creation, and I believe that this takes place when the word of God, being sharper than any two edged sword, separates soul and spirit (Heb. 4:12).
The spiritual being within the soul, within the physical body, has now been developed to a point where there has to be a separation of the two so that the spiritual being can soar into the eternal. This is the work of the sword of the Spirit. That new spiritual being is learning to live in the eternal day, in the eternal now, while at the same time, our physical being is living in time, space and gravity. There's a tremendous difference between the two areas of life. The physical does not want to give up the control and the rule over the egg and the egg is not an egg anymore. It is a new spiritual being, the combination of our spirit and God's Spirit has developed and been brought forth. The two are still living together, but there is a clear understanding that the sinful nature is the sinful nature and the spiritual being is the spiritual being and there is a total separation between the two even though they are living together. There is nothing more exciting than the new adventures of this new spiritual being, which I call the life giving spirit. We are going to give life and light to all creation. For this purpose, we have been born again. For this purpose, we were created, and for this purpose, all of the cosmos is yearning for the manifestation of the sons of God to come forth and bring them life and light. The eternal day is gradually opening up to all of us and we see what our purpose is in life. Our God is not someone high above us in heaven, but our God is one and we are in that One. "for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring'" (Acts 17:28, RSV). We are from Him, in Him, through Him, and to Him. And as we move in His omnipresence, everything becomes life and light and love.
The flesh was the womb and the new creation has come forth out of the womb so the flesh has been totally put aside, but it acts like a mother that has to control the child. It is not so. We have to tell our flesh to step aside and be ourselves in God. We are spiritual and the flesh is natural. The flesh must recognize that it has nothing to do with the spiritual part at all. Just like the spiritual part sees that it has nothing to do with the flesh. We have to recognize that the flesh is not the mother. It has nothing to do with the spiritual. God is both mother and father! Just like we were codependent to our children. We gave them money and gifts to try to control them to a certain extant, so the flesh is codependent to the new creation that we are, and it will try anything to try to control that new creation. The more we feel sorry for the flesh, the more control the flesh has over us as the new creation. It is exactly the same thing as our feeling sorry for our children for what they have to struggle and go through. Just like we have to step away from our children and not be able to help them so that they have to totally depend on God, so the flesh has to step away from us as the new creation to let the Father have His perfect way with us. "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Heb. 2:10, KJV).
Jan and Lenny Antonsson
17178 Highway 59, Neosho, MO 64950 (Snail Mail)
I agree heartily with the article you put up, but I still don t get the mother /UniversalCatholic thing, are you being sarcastic? Hep me I 'm a lil slow on the uptake :o)
I see we are to identify all dimensions of Scripture in their rightful order. There is a natural truth there. There was a Goliath, there was a David . .on and on. Hebrews tells us God manifested his nature through the lives of men as living examples. I see the Old Covenant of God as God manifesting his nature through the literal lives of men and in the New Covenant, God manfiests his nature through the "hearts" of men.
Just as the tabernacle of Moses had three major dimensions to it, outer court, inner court and holy of holies . . .so there are three dimensions to God via Father, Son, Holy Spirit. In the same way there are three major components that make up man through Spirit, soul and body.
So when I read Scripture, I see it also in dimensions of three in historical, moral and spiritual. To separate one from the other would have the same affect as you separate one part of the three componants from man . . .it only results in death. We leave truth incomplete when we choose to omit one or more factors to it. Having said that, I also see that the Spiritual always has precedence over moral and historical.
And, just as the rules of law change from the six days of labor versus the Sabbath day, so it is with seeing spiritual truth versus understanding historical and moral truth. The former comes through revelation through relationship, the latter two come through study and reasoning.
Just my op.
The mother referral was meant to mean, that when the corruption crept into the system of God's Chosen , the ruling and controlling of the peasants became an organization called The Catholic Church ,"that mother" was what I was saying... not any bible whore , or meaning of any bible mother....
IMO The Catholic Church never had anything to do with God's Chosen at anytime. The "called out ones", or ecclesia were called out long before that thing called a "church" became what it became.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2010, 08:57:50 AM
IMO The Catholic Church never had anything to do with God's Chosen at anytime. The "called out ones", or ecclesia were called out long before that thing called a "church" became what it became.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 29, 2010, 08:57:50 AM
IMO The Catholic Church never had anything to do with God's Chosen at anytime. The "called out ones", or ecclesia were called out long before that thing called a "church" became what it became.
I think they did. They oppressed and slaughtered them from the start.
Absolutely true!!!! How could I miss such a monumental aspect of the true history-- Thanks so much for the correction :o)
I'm sometimes wondering if more or less people would be atheists if there was never an organized church.
On one hand the whole teachings may have slowly faded away.
On the other hand how many became atheists because they rebelled against all the crimes of the church?
All empires fall as history proves. The 1700 year empire of church is weak at best.
I wonder what it will be replaced with.
Empire of atheism?
Just another religion?
Or 28-400AD type of Christianity?
Ephesians 1:
4; even as, in His love, He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence.
5; For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure--
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 30, 2010, 07:09:00 PM
I'm sometimes wondering if more or less people would be atheists if there was never an organized church.
On one hand the whole teachings may have slowly faded away.
On the other hand how many became atheists because they rebelled against all the crimes of the church?
All empires fall as history proves. The 1700 year empire of church is weak at best.
I wonder what it will be replaced with.
Empire of atheism?
Just another religion?
Or 28-400AD type of Christianity?
Communist Russia and China were 'empires of atheism."
They are trying to make us one, too. This goes along with a cult of personality [eg Stalin, Mao].
But fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced any pastors or priests who spoke out against them. They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler]. This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.
This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. --Isa 14
I think things will go along as usual, as history has shown us, with God calling out his people one by one, until Christ returns to rule with his saints.
Quote from: Molly on May 30, 2010, 08:30:12 PM
Communist Russia and China were 'empires of atheism."
They are trying to make us one, too. This goes along with a cult of personality [eg Stalin, Mao].
But that was atheism by force. (Note I'm not disagreeing with your statement)
But now that force is (largely) gone the empire still grows. In all parts of Europe. And as far as I can see it the same goes for the USA.
And neither Europe of the USA people can blame that .gov hunts down religious people.
Actually the opposite. With mega bookstores like Amazon people have access to a huge amount of religious study material.
QuoteBut fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced any pastors or priests who spoke out against them. They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler]. This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.
This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.
Can you rephrase that for me Molly?
If you mean religion is used to control the masses I agree. But Nazi German wasn't exactly based on religion. It was based on their god called Hitler or hate. And even then many just followed because they had no choice.
QuoteI think things will go along as usual, as history has shown us, with God calling out his people one by one, until Christ returns to rule with his saints.
What does that exacly mean according to you? Jas the calling out started recently? Does it mean the original/true Christianity is starting to emerge/grow?
History has shown me that God intervenes in the course of events in massive, even convulsive ways- periodically, in an administration suitable to the fulness of times, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Himself. That is where we begin in Ephesians, but we proceed to and through the unity of the faith and the coming to maturity of the Body, even unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. "Until we all attain".
Then even through the mystery of the Bride and the revelation of the Army of God in full armor, waging war vs principalities and powers.
I believe this is the next apocalyptic intervention, an unfolding of revelation to the world that will be on the order of the greatest events we know- the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Exodus, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and the Bride coming down out of heaven.....
I believe this age will go out with a bang, not a whimper :o)
:icon_king:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 30, 2010, 09:47:16 PM
I believe this is the next apocalyptic intervention, an unfolding of revelation to the world that will be on the order of the greatest events we know- the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Exodus, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and the Bride coming down out of heaven.....
I believe this age will go out with a bang, not a whimper :o)
Know this first of all there will definitely come during the last days [from then until the end of this age] mockers who are going to go along according to their own desires, and say, "Where is His promised Presence? Ever since our forefathers fell asleep, everything is continuing just like it has from the beginning of creation." For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky]; by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed. Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and Destruction... 2 Peter 3:3-7 The Christian Bible.
Jer 31:22 How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
Isa 43:18-21 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
Isa 40:3-9 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
I feel the need now, I have not read one of the post on this subject. I want to say how I understand the Book of Revelation.
I have know and followed Tentmaker for some time. I find it great and full of warmth.
I just signed off on a bible/christian..debate forum that had me going mad/insane trying to show how we do not have free will......well i logged off.
The Book of Revelation as it is given to me to understand, the uncovering/manifestation of Jesus Christ in me, in my walk NOW. I do not see it as a book of prophetic stuff to come, yet it is, in me; but an inworking in me NOW. It is a work being done to those saints who have ears to hear. I believe this.
The Book of Revelation, as Bro. Ray Prinzing has said is a Positive Book, I truely believe that.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Peace and Love micah,
In the days when the seventh angel is ready to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God will be completed, as he had made this Good News known to his servants, the prophets.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 30, 2010, 09:25:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 30, 2010, 08:30:12 PM
QuoteBut fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced any pastors or priests who spoke out against them. They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler]. This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.
This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.
Can you rephrase that for me Molly?
If you mean religion is used to control the masses I agree. But Nazi German wasn't exactly based on religion. It was based on their god called Hitler or hate. And even then many just followed because they had no choice.
The typical German in those days would have Hitler's
Mein Kamph in one pocket and Madame Blavatski's
Isis Unveiled in the other. Blavatski was viciously anti-Christian, specially against the Roman Catholic kind, while promoting Eastern mysticism as true or original Christianity. These books, both of them, really were the pacesetters in that culture. The occult was interwoven with Naziism much more than most people know and also much more than I'll get into here. Just remember, according to Max Dimont in his
God, Jews, and History, there were 7 million Christians because of their religion and 6 million Jews because of their religion slaughtered by the Nazis, in addition to those who died in the 2nd world war.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 14, 2011, 03:40:53 AM
I feel the need now, I have not read one of the post on this subject. I want to say how I understand the Book of Revelation.
I have know and followed Tentmaker for some time. I find it great and full of warmth.
I just signed off on a bible/christian..debate forum that had me going mad/insane trying to show how we do not have free will......well i logged off.
The Book of Revelation as it is given to me to understand, the uncovering/manifestation of Jesus Christ in me, in my walk NOW. I do not see it as a book of prophetic stuff to come, yet it is, in me; but an inworking in me NOW. It is a work being done to those saints who have ears to hear. I believe this.
The Book of Revelation, as Bro. Ray Prinzing has said is a Positive Book, I truely believe that.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I think you are verifying what the Sabbath Day message is really all about. Fear, intimidation, death, damnation, destruction, devastation . . .it's all the mindsets established in the days of labor. But when the Sabbath has come, the rules of engagement change along with it. No longer is the book to be read like a cataclysmic event to our natural surroundings. But instead, it's what is going on within each man's heart as God is raising up a church that, instead of going to do battle, is going to do celebration and pronouncment of the authority of Christ is now manifesting in the hearts of men. Turning fear into triumph, sadness into joy . . .destruction into resurrection . . . there will still be those trying to overlay Scripture with the events taking place in their literal backyards, but may we continue to proclaim, to be the sounding trumpets that emulate the life and light that's in the words natural minds conclude to be doom and gloom.
In other words Micah 7:9 . . .AMEN!!!
Quote from: reFORMer on March 18, 2011, 07:53:46 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 30, 2010, 09:25:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 30, 2010, 08:30:12 PM
QuoteBut fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced any pastors or priests who spoke out against them. They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler]. This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.
This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.
Can you rephrase that for me Molly?
If you mean religion is used to control the masses I agree. But Nazi German wasn't exactly based on religion. It was based on their god called Hitler or hate. And even then many just followed because they had no choice.
The typical German in those days would have Hitler's Mein Kamph in one pocket and Madame Blavatski's Isis Unveiled in the other. Blavatski was viciously anti-Christian, specially against the Roman Catholic kind, while promoting Eastern mysticism as true or original Christianity. These books, both of them, really were the pacesetters in that culture. The occult was interwoven with Naziism much more than most people know and also much more than I'll get into here. Just remember, according to Max Dimont in his God, Jews, and History, there were 7 million Christians because of their religion and 6 million Jews because of their religion slaughtered by the Nazis, in addition to those who died in the 2nd world war.
:cloud9: I agree. Hitler and his henchmen, were undoubtedly demonically possessed, and Hitler read Blavatsky's books routinely. She was a Russian Satanist, who started "The Theosophical Society", a nice sounding name for a darkly Satanic cult religion, and the root of Margaret Sanger's (founder of Planned Parenthood, who was a Theosophist) and Hitler's eugenics doctrines. Consequently, he pushed her doctrines into the mainstream awareness. Sick, sick, people.....
Quote from: Nathan on March 18, 2011, 05:41:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 14, 2011, 03:40:53 AM
I feel the need now, I have not read one of the post on this subject. I want to say how I understand the Book of Revelation.
I have know and followed Tentmaker for some time. I find it great and full of warmth.
I just signed off on a bible/christian..debate forum that had me going mad/insane trying to show how we do not have free will......well i logged off.
The Book of Revelation as it is given to me to understand, the uncovering/manifestation of Jesus Christ in me, in my walk NOW. I do not see it as a book of prophetic stuff to come, yet it is, in me; but an inworking in me NOW. It is a work being done to those saints who have ears to hear. I believe this.
The Book of Revelation, as Bro. Ray Prinzing has said is a Positive Book, I truely believe that.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I think you are verifying what the Sabbath Day message is really all about. Fear, intimidation, death, damnation, destruction, devastation . . .it's all the mindsets established in the days of labor. But when the Sabbath has come, the rules of engagement change along with it. No longer is the book to be read like a cataclysmic event to our natural surroundings. But instead, it's what is going on within each man's heart as God is raising up a church that, instead of going to do battle, is going to do celebration and pronouncment of the authority of Christ is now manifesting in the hearts of men. Turning fear into triumph, sadness into joy . . .destruction into resurrection . . . there will still be those trying to overlay Scripture with the events taking place in their literal backyards, but may we continue to proclaim, to be the sounding trumpets that emulate the life and light that's in the words natural minds conclude to be doom and gloom.
In other words Micah 7:9 . . .AMEN!!!
What causes fear to one person, causes joy to another....."when you see all these things REJOICE!, for your redemption is drawing nigh". We know that everything that can be shaken will be shaken until only that which cannot be shaken remains. I believe this is true of each of us as we experience the revelation of Jesus Christ. I think it is true of the whole body of Christ in every part of the world, and I think it is true of the entire cosmos and the procession of ages, generations and times- spiritually
and historically.When we are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus our perspective is lifted and it is like looking down at a forest- you can see the limits of the forest, the river running through it, and the destination of it as it winds towards the sea. If you are on the ground you have a different perspective.... a much more limited one. The trees and the river however, are entirely real. They just appear differently.
I think some of the most powerful words spoken in John's revelation are, "COME UP HERE". The idea that it is "either/or" regarding prophetic time sequences and personal revelation seems like splitting a coin to me. I never understood the conflict. I don't believe it is sufficient, or wise, to disregard either view, because it is all one, even "the revelation of the mystery hidden from ages past but now revealed through the words of the prophets and the apostles", a revelation of Jesus, "whom the heavens must recieve until the period of the restoration of all things which was spoken of by all the prophets since the world began". Even as Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and all the other prophets contained visions that communicated eternal revelations, aionian events and immediate prophecies of historical and political import, so does John's revelation.
Although we will all wake up in "the moment and the twinkling of an eye", transformed into His image because "we will see Him as He is" and will "know as we are known", that moment is already growing in us as the dawn marching on towards the full noon, and as a seed growing into a tree of righteousness. The manifestation of the sons of God will have tremendous historical impact throughout the unfolding of ages to come, in this "administration suitable to the fulness of times". The whole creation is champing at the bit, awaiting that manifestation, which will usher in the restoration of the cosmos and everything in it. I personally believe that story is also woven into the tapestry of John's revelation. Whether through fire or through glory or through shaking and martyrdom and blood- IT IS ALL CAUSE TO REJOICE FOR THE OVERCOMERS, looking forward to the glorious hope of our calling and presently abiding in it- to be conformed to His image, to sit with Him upon the throne of love- for if we suffer with Him we shall be glorified with Him. Peace, John