The Book of Revelation

[WhiteWings]

I'm sometimes wondering if more or less people would be atheists if there was never an organized church.
On one hand the whole teachings may have slowly faded away.
On the other hand how many became atheists because they rebelled against all the crimes of the church?

All empires fall as history proves. The 1700 year empire of church is weak at best.
I wonder what it will be replaced with.
Empire of atheism?
Just another religion?
Or 28-400AD type of Christianity?

[Beloved Servant]

Ephesians 1:

4; even as, in His love, He chose us as His own in Christ before the creation  of the world, that we might be holy and without blemish in His presence.

5; For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure--

[Molly]

I'm sometimes wondering if more or less people would be atheists if there was never an organized church.
On one hand the whole teachings may have slowly faded away.
On the other hand how many became atheists because they rebelled against all the crimes of the church?

All empires fall as history proves. The 1700 year empire of church is weak at best.
I wonder what it will be replaced with.
Empire of atheism?
Just another religion?
Or 28-400AD type of Christianity?

Communist Russia and China were 'empires of atheism."  
They are trying to make us one, too.  This goes along with a cult of personality [eg Stalin, Mao].

But fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced  any pastors or priests who spoke out against them.  They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler].  This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.

This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.  


13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

--Isa 14



I think things will go along as usual,  as history has shown us, with God calling out his people one by one, until Christ returns to rule with his saints.

[WhiteWings]

Communist Russia and China were 'empires of atheism."  
They are trying to make us one, too.  This goes along with a cult of personality [eg Stalin, Mao].

But that was atheism by force. (Note I'm not disagreeing with your statement)
But now that force is (largely) gone the empire still grows. In all parts of Europe. And as far as I can see it the same goes for the USA.
And neither Europe of the USA people can blame that .gov hunts down religious people.
Actually the opposite. With mega bookstores like Amazon people have access to a huge amount of religious study material.

But fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced  any pastors or priests who spoke out against them.  They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler].  This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.

This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.

Can you rephrase that for me Molly?
If you mean religion is used to control the masses I agree. But Nazi German wasn't exactly based on religion. It was based on their god called Hitler or hate. And even then many just followed because they had no choice.

I think things will go along as usual,  as history has shown us, with God calling out his people one by one, until Christ returns to rule with his saints.

What does that exacly mean according to you? Jas the calling out started recently? Does it mean the original/true Christianity is starting to emerge/grow?

[eaglesway]

History has shown me that God intervenes in the course of events in massive, even convulsive ways- periodically, in an administration suitable to the fulness of times, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Himself. That is where we begin in Ephesians, but we proceed to and through the unity of the faith and the coming to maturity of the Body, even unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. "Until we all attain".

Then even through the mystery of the Bride and the revelation of the Army of God in full armor, waging war vs principalities and powers.

    I believe this is the next apocalyptic intervention, an unfolding of revelation to the world that will be on the order of the greatest events we know- the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Exodus, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and the Bride coming down out of heaven.....

I believe this age will go out with a bang, not a whimper :o)

[Beloved Servant]

 :icon_king:

[jabcat]

I believe this is the next apocalyptic intervention, an unfolding of revelation to the world that will be on the order of the greatest events we know- the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Exodus, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and the Bride coming down out of heaven.....

I believe this age will go out with a bang, not a whimper :o)

Know this first of all there will definitely come during the last days [from then until the end of this age] mockers who are going to go along according to their own desires, and say, "Where is His promised Presence?  Ever since our forefathers fell asleep, everything is continuing just like it has from the beginning of creation."  For they want to let this escape their notice, that by God's Word there existed old heavens and earth [the first ones, the ones of the first age], and that that earth was standing together [there were no oceans] up out of water [below the surface] and with water [above in the sky];  by means of these the world that existed then, was flooded by water and destroyed.  Yet by the same Word the current heavens and earth [the second ones, the ones of the second age] are being stored up for Fire, kept for Judgment Day and Destruction...  2 Peter 3:3-7 The Christian Bible.

[eaglesway]

Jer 31:22  How long wilt thou go about, O thou backsliding daughter? for the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.


Isa 43:18-21 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.

Isa 40:3-9 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever. O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

[micah7:9]

I feel the need now, I have not read one of the post on this subject. I want to say how I understand the Book of Revelation.
I have know and followed Tentmaker for some time. I find it great and full of warmth.
I just signed off on a bible/christian..debate forum that had me going mad/insane trying to show how we do not have free will......well i logged off.
The Book of Revelation as it is given to me to understand, the uncovering/manifestation of Jesus Christ in me, in my walk NOW. I do not see it as a book of prophetic stuff to come, yet it is, in me; but an inworking in me NOW. It is a work being done to those saints who have ears to hear. I believe this.
The Book of Revelation, as Bro. Ray Prinzing has said is a Positive Book, I truely believe that.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Beloved Servant]

Peace and Love micah,
In the days when the seventh angel is ready to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God will be completed, as he had made this Good News known to his servants, the prophets.

[reFORMer]

But fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced  any pastors or priests who spoke out against them.  They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler].  This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.

This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.

Can you rephrase that for me Molly?
If you mean religion is used to control the masses I agree. But Nazi German wasn't exactly based on religion. It was based on their god called Hitler or hate. And even then many just followed because they had no choice.

The typical German in those days would have Hitler's Mein Kamph in one pocket and Madame Blavatski's Isis Unveiled in the other.  Blavatski was viciously anti-Christian, specially against the Roman Catholic kind, while promoting Eastern mysticism as true or original Christianity.  These books, both of them, really were the pacesetters in that culture.  The occult was interwoven with Naziism much more than most people know and also much more than I'll get into here.  Just remember, according to Max Dimont in his God, Jews, and History, there were 7 million Christians because of their religion and 6 million Jews because of their religion slaughtered by the Nazis, in addition to those who died in the 2nd world war.

[Nathan]

I feel the need now, I have not read one of the post on this subject. I want to say how I understand the Book of Revelation.
I have know and followed Tentmaker for some time. I find it great and full of warmth.
I just signed off on a bible/christian..debate forum that had me going mad/insane trying to show how we do not have free will......well i logged off.
The Book of Revelation as it is given to me to understand, the uncovering/manifestation of Jesus Christ in me, in my walk NOW. I do not see it as a book of prophetic stuff to come, yet it is, in me; but an inworking in me NOW. It is a work being done to those saints who have ears to hear. I believe this.
The Book of Revelation, as Bro. Ray Prinzing has said is a Positive Book, I truely believe that.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

I think you are verifying what the Sabbath Day message is really all about.  Fear, intimidation, death, damnation, destruction, devastation . . .it's all the mindsets established in the days of labor.  But when the Sabbath has come, the rules of engagement change along with it.  No longer is the book to be read like a cataclysmic event to our natural surroundings.  But instead, it's what is going on within each man's heart as God is raising up a church that, instead of going to do battle, is going to do celebration and pronouncment of the authority of Christ is now manifesting in the hearts of men.  Turning fear into triumph, sadness into joy . . .destruction into resurrection . . . there will still be those trying to overlay Scripture with the events taking place in their literal backyards, but may we continue to proclaim, to be the sounding trumpets that emulate the life and light that's in the words natural minds conclude to be doom and gloom.

In other words Micah 7:9 . . .AMEN!!!

[Cardinal]

But fascist Germany left the church in place and just killed or otherwise silenced  any pastors or priests who spoke out against them.  They, too, had their cult of personality [Hitler].  This is kind of where we are now, a soft version of this.

This seems to be standard operating procedure for those who would control the world.

Can you rephrase that for me Molly?
If you mean religion is used to control the masses I agree. But Nazi German wasn't exactly based on religion. It was based on their god called Hitler or hate. And even then many just followed because they had no choice.

The typical German in those days would have Hitler's Mein Kamph in one pocket and Madame Blavatski's Isis Unveiled in the other.  Blavatski was viciously anti-Christian, specially against the Roman Catholic kind, while promoting Eastern mysticism as true or original Christianity.  These books, both of them, really were the pacesetters in that culture.  The occult was interwoven with Naziism much more than most people know and also much more than I'll get into here.  Just remember, according to Max Dimont in his God, Jews, and History, there were 7 million Christians because of their religion and 6 million Jews because of their religion slaughtered by the Nazis, in addition to those who died in the 2nd world war.

:cloud9: I agree. Hitler and his henchmen, were undoubtedly demonically possessed, and Hitler read Blavatsky's books routinely. She was a Russian Satanist, who started "The Theosophical Society", a nice sounding name for a darkly Satanic cult religion, and the root of Margaret Sanger's  (founder of Planned Parenthood, who was a Theosophist) and Hitler's eugenics doctrines. Consequently, he pushed her doctrines into the mainstream awareness. Sick, sick, people.....

[eaglesway]

I feel the need now, I have not read one of the post on this subject. I want to say how I understand the Book of Revelation.
I have know and followed Tentmaker for some time. I find it great and full of warmth.
I just signed off on a bible/christian..debate forum that had me going mad/insane trying to show how we do not have free will......well i logged off.
The Book of Revelation as it is given to me to understand, the uncovering/manifestation of Jesus Christ in me, in my walk NOW. I do not see it as a book of prophetic stuff to come, yet it is, in me; but an inworking in me NOW. It is a work being done to those saints who have ears to hear. I believe this.
The Book of Revelation, as Bro. Ray Prinzing has said is a Positive Book, I truely believe that.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

I think you are verifying what the Sabbath Day message is really all about.  Fear, intimidation, death, damnation, destruction, devastation . . .it's all the mindsets established in the days of labor.  But when the Sabbath has come, the rules of engagement change along with it.  No longer is the book to be read like a cataclysmic event to our natural surroundings.  But instead, it's what is going on within each man's heart as God is raising up a church that, instead of going to do battle, is going to do celebration and pronouncment of the authority of Christ is now manifesting in the hearts of men.  Turning fear into triumph, sadness into joy . . .destruction into resurrection . . . there will still be those trying to overlay Scripture with the events taking place in their literal backyards, but may we continue to proclaim, to be the sounding trumpets that emulate the life and light that's in the words natural minds conclude to be doom and gloom.

In other words Micah 7:9 . . .AMEN!!!

What causes fear to one person, causes joy to another....."when you see all these things REJOICE!, for your redemption is drawing nigh". We know that everything that can be shaken will be shaken until only that which cannot be shaken remains. I believe this is true of each of us as we experience the revelation of Jesus Christ. I think it is true of the whole body of Christ in every part of the world, and I think it is true of the entire cosmos and the procession of ages, generations and times- spiritually and historically.

When we are seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus our perspective is lifted and it is like looking down at a forest- you can see the limits of the forest, the river running through it, and the destination of it as it winds towards the sea. If you are on the ground you have a different perspective.... a much more limited one. The trees and the river however, are entirely real. They just appear differently.

I think some of the most powerful words spoken in John's revelation are, "COME UP HERE". The idea that it is "either/or" regarding prophetic time sequences and personal revelation seems like splitting a coin to me. I never understood the conflict. I don't believe it is sufficient, or wise, to disregard either view, because it is all one, even "the revelation of the mystery hidden from ages past but now revealed through the words of the prophets and the apostles", a revelation of Jesus, "whom the heavens must recieve until the period of the restoration of all things which was spoken of by all the prophets since the world began". Even as Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and all the other prophets contained visions that communicated eternal revelations, aionian events and immediate prophecies of historical and political import, so does John's revelation.

Although we will all wake up in "the moment and the twinkling of an eye", transformed into His image because "we will see Him as He is" and will "know as we are known", that moment is already growing in us as the dawn marching on towards the full noon, and as a seed growing into a tree of righteousness. The manifestation of the sons of God will have tremendous historical impact throughout the unfolding of ages to come, in this "administration suitable to the fulness of times". The whole creation is champing at the bit, awaiting that manifestation, which will usher in the restoration of the cosmos and everything in it. I personally believe that story is also woven into the tapestry of John's revelation. Whether through fire or through glory or through shaking and martyrdom and blood- IT IS ALL CAUSE TO REJOICE FOR THE OVERCOMERS, looking forward to the glorious hope of our calling and presently abiding in it- to be conformed to His image, to sit with Him upon the throne of love- for if we suffer with Him we shall be glorified with Him. Peace, John