Everlasting contempt?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_king:

Otherwise, He is to THAT degree, NOT in control of His Creation, and NOT in control of the POWER used in those instances, and therefore NOT ALMIGHTY!   :mnah:

I think what we may perceive as not almighty means very little.

That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it... the opposite opinion which I have expressed has EVERY bit as much validity... for REASON dictates, that if even the SMALLEST PORTION of MIGHT is taken away, that the entity which had "ALL MIGHT", no longer has "ALL MIGHT"...

If I have ALL the MONEY, and someone takes SOME of it... The TRUTH is that I no longer have ALL the MONEY, irregardless of an obstinate position which refuses to recognize this.

1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.

I soitenly agree with this verse... GOD does impart his wisdom to men... then vanity or wisdom is subsequently engaged... and REASON is either recieved or rejected...  :dontknow:

Just because God is not in control a certain way, does not mean he is not in control and does not mean he is not almighty.

Again an ILLOGICAL conclusion based upon stubborness... You are welcome to buck REASON, many do...  :sigh:

God calls us to REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- but only HE, being ALMIGHTY, decides who shall come under its wisdom, and when. 

There will always be VANITY amongst men... until GOD decides to what degrees it is removed, in favor of what is NOT VAIN, that being His WORD and the TRUTH contained in it, which will ALWAYS be aligned with REASON, not obtinacy...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Again an ILLOGICAL conclusion based upon stubborness

You will have to do better than to say I am stubborn in order to prove a point illogical.

If you are correct, then your point is as illogical as mine since you are as stubborn in your point of view.

[willieH]

Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"

I personally am not,  I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.

ALL POWER is of God... including the technology that brought forth the gun, and the EMPOWERED user of it.

He has revealed knowledge to men which HE already had... and MEN only utilize that knowledge, according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of the utilization of the knowledge revealed.

Including both the gun and the man that uses it.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[willieH]

Again an ILLOGICAL conclusion based upon stubborness

You will have to do better than to say I am stubborn in order to prove a point illogical.

If you are correct, then your point is as illogical as mine since you are as stubborn in your point of view.

I have already proven your observation to be ILLOGICAL... and only continuing stubborness (not refutation of that example), has been availed in your answer here.  :dontknow:

If I have ALL the MONEY [might], and someone takes SOME of it... The TRUTH is that I no longer have ALL the MONEY [might], ...irregardless of an obstinate position which refuses to recognize this.

Refute my example if you can.  Then you will give some creedence to your position as not being "stubborn"...  :laughing7:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it... the opposite opinion which I have expressed has EVERY bit as much validity... for REASON dictates, that if even the SMALLEST PORTION of MIGHT is taken away, that the entity which had "ALL MIGHT", no longer has "ALL MIGHT"...

It is just as reasonable to conclude that something can have control over something different ways.

Is there really only one way to have control?  No there is not,  that is just a fact.

The end goal of something often determines the manner in which something must be controlled.  


The terrorist will have to control something a different way than Love will.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have already proven your observation to be ILLOGICAL... and only continuing stubborness (not refutation of that example), has been availed in your answer here.  :dontknow:

No, you have merely disguised your proof as an insult.   Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I am illogical or stubborn in the negative light you wish to cast me in.  Since you rest your conclusions logic on your belief that I am stubborn, your conclusion is in error.

So it is you that have not proven anything.

[willieH]

willieH:  :thumbdown:

I have already proven your observation to be ILLOGICAL... and only continuing stubborness (not refutation of that example), has been availed in your answer here.  :dontknow:

No, you have merely disguised your proof as an insult.

Boy, if you don't take the cake Paul... I have commended you within this conversation, thanking you for your input, you reciprocate disagreement, with a tongue lashing, and accusation. 

I have DISGUISED nothing... I have a sincere motive as I post, and NEVER have a hidden desire to INSULT YOU... to your SHAME have you made these remarks.  :thumbdown:

Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I am illogical or stubborn in the negative light you wish to cast me in.

Chill out!  :msealed:  Your vanity is showing.  :thumbdown:

Since you rest your conclusions logic on your belief that I am stubborn, your conclusion is in error.

So it is you that have not proven anything.

All you have done here is NOTHING but create dissension -- which is obviously your motive.

If you really could REFUTE the REASON as noted in the example I gave to you TWICE, ...you would... instead we have this:

It is just as reasonable to conclude that something can have control over something different ways.

Is there really only one way to have control?  No there is not,  that is just a fact.

The end goal of something often determines the manner in which something must be controlled. 

The terrorist will have to control something a different way than Love will.

Strawman answer... poorly presented.

A terrorist NEVER CAN and NEVER WILL make the claim of ALMIGHTY... and all this pathetic response is, is your continuing failing to find the humility you have so often, lacked...

Stick with whatcha know, that is... if it is "knowledge" at all... :rolleye:

It doesn't matter to me what "you think you know"... in your obstinacy.

...willieH  :sigh:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Boy, if you don't take the cake Paul... I have commended you within this conversation, thanking you for your input, you reciprocate disagreement, with a tongue lashing, and accusation. 

Calling me stubborn and obstinate as a point against what i have said is an insult, perhaps you should take you own advise and acknowledge your insult for what it is.   You are free to try to twist it around as if your the poor injured party,  but it is what it is,  an insult,  and your denial of it changes nothing.

[bobf]

The assumption I suppose is that 14 & 15 is separating the (already) saved from the (forever) unsaved.

Seems you're implying the gates are open to ALL forever. And uh well, that just can't be. Can it?

We see the same thing implied in Revelation 21:25-26 and Isaiah 60.  After the New Jerusalem decends from heaven, there are those within the city, and those without the city, sitting in darkness, and the gates remain open for those on the outside who come to the light of the city.

[jabcat]

Good suggestion Taf, I've been watching the thread and realized one of the participants in the thread was becoming unecessarily "personal", and was considering intervening.  I like your idea, and agree.  If not stopped, then at least private.   :thumbsup:   James.

[reFORMer]

With understanding, this one standing by says, "Amen."

[reFORMer]

willieH: Hi reFormer...  :icon_king:

It seems that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet be, at least for a while, somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.

I don't agree brother reFormer... GOD is no respecter of persons (impartial)...

If you did not RECIEVE PAIN or some "kind of inhibition" (whatever that might be), in your conversion from EVIL and another DOES... how has GOD remained IMPARTIAL to you both?  :dontknow:

If some have to experience PAIN in their conversion (because GOD did NOT "foreordain" them) and there are those who do not have to experience this PAIN (because GOD DID "foreordain" them), are not the latter grouping being favored by Him, displaying PARTIALITY?

I don't see it.  I do not see that PAIN concerning conversion is part of the "plan" for PEACE... and if it IS so... the how can it be said that CHRIST has "made PEACE" for ALL THINGS, and that ALL FULLNESS is dwelling IN HIM? -- Col 1:19-20

CHRIST took upon Himself, the PAIN and the DEATH that we ALL deserve for our lives and how they have been lived...  How shall He feel about MANY (most) of His SHEEP being run over the coals, when He has already endured this FOR THEM?  :mshock:

Isn't it "HIGH TIME" we began PREACHING that PEACE?  :dontknow:

As far as a relationship with "holy ones"... the only thing that makes anything HOLY is YHVH and His LOVE having been shed upon that one.

Again... a moment of SHAME (which is what these shall experience) might be as overestimated as "5 seconds" is in my example of time:

A 7 day vacation can go by in a WISK!  And 5 seconds with your hand on a stove burner trudges so slowly as to seem eternal... Try both and then tell us which of the 2 is the LONGER period of time.  :laughing7:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2)  Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these.  "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace.   This lack is applied in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc.  "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase.

Not being overcomers, not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free.  They can be externally herded.  They are yet disciplined by need and lack.  They are still subject.  This is understandable considering the massive powers of immortal beings in the image of God

My question would be, "did anyone, OVERCOME, of themselves"?  And if not, then why should those insufficient in this category, be penalized when the "1st resurrectioners" were "helped over the fence", and these not?

Eph 2:9 -- for we are HIS WORKMANSHIP -- [designed by the designer] -- Created in CHRIST JESUS unto GOOD WORKS, which -- GOD hath FOREORDAINED that we should WALK in them

Those who "OVERCOME" have been FOREORDAINED (designed by a predetermined plan) to walk unto GOOD WORKS (overcoming)... Which said FOREORDAINATION was made by an IMPARTIAL God... Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- and 8 others

So why should GOD, give those NOT "foreordained", a "beatin" for not being FOREORDAINED by HIM? (chosen to be amongst the 1st resurrection)

I maintain that there is no PEACE found in such a concept... and that CHRIST has ALREADY established PEACE for ALL -- Col 1:20

...willieH  :cloud9:

The following is some basic info from blueletterbible concerning the two significant Hebrew words of the passage in question.  The copy of Gesenius doesn't cut and paste, but is much more fullsome and worthy of going to the site to read.  These words are used in the context of resurrection though you speak of it as "conversion."  That's fine as long as it is understood that, for all three dimension of occurrence, "vivification of the spirit, rousing of the soul, and raising of the body" much of the terminology is interchangeable.  Certainly this passage in Daniel applies to resurrection of the body!

Daniel 12:2 (AV)...
And many 7227 of them that sleep 3463 in the dust 6083 of the earth 127 shall awake 6974 , some to everlasting 5769 life 2416, and some to shame 2781 [and] everlasting 5769 contempt 1860.

"shame" H2781:
חֶרְפָּה
Transliteration:  cherpah
Pronunciation:  kher·pä'

Part of speech:
feminine noun

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1) reproach, scorn

a) taunt, scorn (upon enemy)

b) reproach (resting upon condition of shame, disgrace)

c) a reproach (an object)
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count -- Total:  73
AV — reproach 67, shame 3, rebuke 2, reproachfully 1
+++++++
Root Word (Etymology)
>From (H2778)

Transliteration:  charaph.
Pronunciation: khä·raf'

primitive root

Part of speech:
verb

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1) to reproach, taunt, blaspheme, defy, jeopardise, rail, upbraid

a) (Qal) to reproach

b) (Piel) to reproach, defy, taunt

2) (Qal) to winter, spend harvest time, remain in harvest time

3) (Niphal) to acquire, be betrothed
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count -- Total:  41
AV — reproach 27, defy 8, betrothed 1, blasphemed 1, jeoparded 1, rail 1, upbraid 1, winter 1
____________________________
Daniel 12:2 (AV)...
And many 7227 of them that sleep 3463 in the dust 6083 of the earth 127 shall awake 6974 , some to everlasting 5769 life 2416, and some to shame 2781 [and] everlasting 5769 contempt 1860.

"contempt" H1860
דְּרָאוֺן

Transliteration:  dĕra'own
Pronunciation:  der·ä·ōn'

Part of speech:
masculine noun

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1) aversion, abhorrence

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total:  2
AV — abhorring 1 contempt 1

Really, this is God's Word.  What would you have me do?  I attempted a simple explanation of this information.  What's to disagree with?  As far as differences among people, they are all around you everyday.  You theory of God's non-preferential treatment seems like it doesn't match the facts of everbody's experience or the testimony of Scripture.  Sure, God is no respector of persons; but that doesn't mean He treats everybody a like.  He points out that talking to Abraham face to face is very unusual.  He also singled out Sodom and Gomora for some exceptional displays of His wrath.

Supposing I have twin sons and I tell them they cannot go over to their friend Joe's house after school; but, they must come straight home and do their homework.  It's doubly important because semester finals are just around the corner.  Sean goes over to Joe's, not coming home until time for supper.  Geof came home and did his homework.  When I get there in time to eat together with them I discover the situation.  I tell Geof he'll be going with me to the concert I'd been given tickets for, while Sean will have to stay home and take care of his school stuff he should've already had done.  If both of them had done their work as I told them, both of them would've gone along.  I would not be playing favorites by treating them differently.  Actually treating them alike, letting Sean come along anyway would be showing respect of persons.

Repeatedly, from the old prophets to Jesus and Paul and even in the last chapter of the Bible it says that God will render to everyone according to their works.  For Him to make exceptions would break the characteristic equity of God.  The following selections of Scripture illustrate there are difference between all of us.  The resurrection will widen these distinguishing features of each man.  "...for star is excelling star in glory."  It will be "...each man in his own order."  The more we are like God the more unique we become.

Luke 12:47-48 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
47 "Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes.  Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him.

1 Corinthians 15:35-42 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
35 But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?"
36 Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying.
37 And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest.
38 Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes.
40 There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial,
41 another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars, for star is excelling star in glory.
42 Thus also is the resurrection of the dead.

The following should be memorized by every new believer.  It present a true contradiction.  God foreordained the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus.  Because God determined this it has to happen.  Yet the one betraying Him is haeld responsible!  We need to learn to keep mutually exclusive truths in our head.

"And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Lk 22:22, AV)

[willieH]

Paul\Willie :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Plz continue your debate in Private... as the board no longer has the facility for a One to One as per times gone by.

Thanks Guys

:icon_flower:

You're of course right, brother G... but I have no further comments toward him, nor desire to discuss with this guy at all, again.

I might jump into the discussion again, but not concerning him or any other comments he might make in it... He is welcome to his position, doesn't matter to me.

...willieH  :cloud9:

[lomarah]

reFORMer: THANK YOU!! You said exactly what I have been trying to say and in a much better way than I could have said it.  :cloud9:   :thumbsup: :dsunny:

willieH quoted:

If GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?

If YOU were an observer of such an act as RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen?  And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act?  And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?

This has bothered me for a long time... how God could sit by and let things like rape and horrible things happen. One day a while back when I was still a fairly new believer I was watching the news and they had a story on about a young girl who was walking home from school one day and two men came out and completely brutalized her... they raped her and mutilated her... plucked out her eyes and it was just so horrible. I am crying now even thinking about the story. Anyhow, I was so angry and I just couldn't imagine how God and His holy angels could sit by and watch as this all happened and not do anything about it. I screamed at Him, "HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN??? WHY DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING TO STOP THIS??" Then in my mind's eye I saw her sitting at the feet of Jesus and she was so peaceful and so happy and He was just loving her and it was so beautiful. (Crying again...) It was like what had happened on earth didn't even really matter at all. (Not that our actions on this earth don't matter, but that the pain that she had gone through was so short and so nothing compared to the Love and peace she had now and will continue to have for all eternity.) This didn't answer all my questions, obviously, but one day I know that it will all make sense and all will be right and Love will reign in EVERY heart and I can't wait for that day.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul\Willie :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

Plz continue your debate in Private... as the board no longer has the facility for a One to One as per times gone by.

Thanks Guys

:icon_flower:

No reason to take it private.   I think if a persons posts making personal comments are left in public view the recipient of those comments has the right to address them in public view.

I will refrain from any further comments directly to Willie in this thread concerning the posts that have been made up to this point.

[Paul Hazelwood]

reFORMer: THANK YOU!! You said exactly what I have been trying to say and in a much better way than I could have said it.  :cloud9:   :thumbsup: :dsunny:

willieH quoted:

If GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?

If YOU were an observer of such an act as RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen?  And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act?  And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?

This has bothered me for a long time... how God could sit by and let things like rape and horrible things happen. One day a while back when I was still a fairly new believer I was watching the news and they had a story on about a young girl who was walking home from school one day and two men came out and completely brutalized her... they raped her and mutilated her... plucked out her eyes and it was just so horrible. I am crying now even thinking about the story. Anyhow, I was so angry and I just couldn't imagine how God and His holy angels could sit by and watch as this all happened and not do anything about it. I screamed at Him, "HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN??? WHY DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING TO STOP THIS??" Then in my mind's eye I saw her sitting at the feet of Jesus and she was so peaceful and so happy and He was just loving her and it was so beautiful. (Crying again...) It was like what had happened on earth didn't even really matter at all. (Not that our actions on this earth don't matter, but that the pain that she had gone through was so short and so nothing compared to the Love and peace she had now and will continue to have for all eternity.) This didn't answer all my questions, obviously, but one day I know that it will all make sense and all will be right and Love will reign in EVERY heart and I can't wait for that day.

There is a reality in scripture when it tells us to pray for what must happen.  The charge to pray is not to change things, it is to draw strength to endure what MUST be.    It must be that way, not because God chose for us to suffer when the ALL powerful God could of perfected us without it,  it is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion. 

It is not God nor the angels sitting by in inaction when they could do otherwise it is understanding there is only one way to perfection,  God cannot change that, because he does not change, not because he is not LOVE.

[lomarah]

Hey Paul,
Could you explain this further, i'm not quite sure what you mean:

it is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion.

Also I wasn't quite sure whether you think God could have perfected us without all this suffering or if you think all this suffering is the only way to perfection?
Thanks!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hey Paul,
Could you explain this further, i'm not quite sure what you mean:

it is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion.

Also I wasn't quite sure whether you think God could have perfected us without all this suffering or if you think all this suffering is the only way to perfection?
Thanks!

I will try,  Some may object that I am trying to limit God, but it is indeed the limits we "may" "perceive" that are not actually limits but laws that are of a perfect nature.

I do not believe God could perfect us to be one with him without us experiencing this life and what each of individually experience no matter how bad it is.

It is not about God being limited,  it is about God knowing the nature of all things including himself.


God spoke us into existence "knowing" we "will" be one with him (because his word does not return VOID) and we are simply in the cocoon of process to emerge as majestic as him being one.   This cocoon shields us from seeing what we will be and our struggle is the only way we can emerge as the beautiful butterfly.  He grieves with us because in order to give us that gift, we MUST go through what we go through, He knows our pain.  Our imaginations  can believe that God is NOT ALL powerful based upon that perfect assurance of the unchangable God.


I will try to say something different if that is not helpful.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi lomarah...  :cloud9:

Since it was my words that you quoted, I thought I might elaborate upon them a bit... hope you don't mind...  :HeartThrob:

If GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?

If YOU were an observer of such an act as RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen?  And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act?  And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?

This has bothered me for a long time... how God could sit by and let things like rape and horrible things happen. One day a while back when I was still a fairly new believer I was watching the news and they had a story on about a young girl who was walking home from school one day and two men came out and completely brutalized her... they raped her and mutilated her... plucked out her eyes and it was just so horrible. I am crying now even thinking about the story. Anyhow, I was so angry and I just couldn't imagine how God and His holy angels could sit by and watch as this all happened and not do anything about it. I screamed at Him, "HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN??? WHY DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING TO STOP THIS??" Then in my mind's eye I saw her sitting at the feet of Jesus and she was so peaceful and so happy and He was just loving her and it was so beautiful. (Crying again...) It was like what had happened on earth didn't even really matter at all. (Not that our actions on this earth don't matter, but that the pain that she had gone through was so short and so nothing compared to the Love and peace she had now and will continue to have for all eternity.) This didn't answer all my questions, obviously, but one day I know that it will all make sense and all will be right and Love will reign in EVERY heart and I can't wait for that day.

YHVH's Knowledge which is NOT inhibited or confined by TIME, is ETERNAL and it is PERFECT concerning BOTH Good and Evil...

In other words, AS,  ...JOY is ever existent in the ETERNAL... and PERFECT... the DEPTH of EVIL in God's PERFECT knowledge of it, includes all that atrocities that have occured in Created Time. 

And as in your vision, shall no longer BE, but shall remain the UGLYand REPULSIVE comparitive, that designates BEAUTY and JOY for what it truly IS, GLORIFYING GOD for it, ...for EVER...

God Created Time from ETERNITY --- in which EVIL was NOT KNOWN, except by His UNSPOKEN and INWARD, KNOWLEDGE of it... GOD Himself, LIVES and COMMANDS LIFE to be LIVED according to the LAW of HOLINESS -- Rom 7:12 -- In order that HIS SONS be ALL that He IS, ...they needed to KNOW the COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE which was within His HEART, unexpressed in Eternity.

Here is REASON:

Because YHVH would not allow ETERNITY to be TAINTED in any way, He CREATED Time -- and in the course of TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- He has brought forth INTO IT each of His SONS for the PURPOSE of KNOWING Good and Evil -- Gen 3:22 -- that each SON by his/her individual EXPERIENCE, would COMPLETLY KNOW the HEART of YHVH, each of which shouted for the JOY of the REVELATION of HIS unspoken WORD at the Creation of this realm -- Job 38:7

That is what the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST IS...  the WORD of God contains the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of God as it is outwardly EXPRESSED...

Just as we who are made in His IMAGE, find that our thoughts remain SILENT and UNKNOWN, until they are EXPRESSED VERBALLY...

We are made in His IMAGE, which is the WORD -- Heb 1:3 -- and when the WORD is EXPRESSED, it contains the Knowledge silently KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH.

We (as His Children) as we are EACH EXPRESSED into this life BY the WORD -- Col 1:16 -- are the LIVING "portion" termed as EVIL within the knowledge of GOD... which He is EXPRESSING in OUTWARD terms... for we are MADE by the WORD -- John 1:3 -- which contains BOTH the Knowledge OF EVIL in PERFECTION, as well as the Knowledge of GOOD in PERFECTION.

CHRIST (the light/good -- John 1:8) walked amongst the DARKNESS/evil -- John 1:5 -- (men)...

The vision of JOY has already been witnessed by you as outlined in blue in your quote above...

GOD is no respecter of persons... CHRIST (which is noted to be the HEAD of the BODY) Stated that HE could do NOTHING of Himself... but as the Father spoke, CHRIST repeated what He HEARD and therefore DID (acted) as He HEARD of the Father -- John 5:19 & 30   --

ALL His actions were according to that which was Prophesied (FOREKNOWN) by YHVH... and accordingly He did and said as was WRITTEN of Him, all of it GOOD, all of it OBEDIENT.   Those who are ORDAINED to -- Eph 2:10 -- submit to the COMMANDS of the WORD, and are in obedience of it... and thereby IN it = IN CHRIST = GOOD ...not doing THEIR "will" (which is of the FLESH/Darkness), rather are seen as PROPHESIED of them -- Isaiah 19:5 -- laying themselves down in submission IN the SPIRIT to YHVH.

GOD is no respecter of persons... the actions of MEN (which are noted to be the BODY of CHRIST) are WRITTEN in the WORD -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- and so they too do accordingly... only their actions are EVIL and they also do according to that which was DECLARED (prophesied) of them as well, BY that WORD... all of it EVIL, all of it DISOBEDIENT. 

Those who do NOT submit to the WORD are in disobedience of it... and NOT IN it = NOT IN CHRIST = EVIL ...and are seen remaining IN the FLESH which is NOT in submission to YHVH

ALL the SONS of GOD partake in the REVELATION of the WORD which is the EXPRESSION of GOD's Knowledge which a LIVING knowledge and is of BOTH GOOD and EVIL.

GOD does not "sit by and condone"... it is HIS intention that EVIL  be KNOWN [MEN -- ALL have SINNED -- Rom 3:23 -- and are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32]  by the Revelation of the WORD as well as GOOD [CHRIST -- UNSINFUL -- Heb 4:15]...

In TIME by its CONCLUSION in which ALL RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT shall have occured, ...BOTH aspects are therein made known within the COMPLETE [perfect] outward EXPRESSION of the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH GOD...

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

[lomarah]

Hey Paul,
Could you explain this further, i'm not quite sure what you mean:

it is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion.

Also I wasn't quite sure whether you think God could have perfected us without all this suffering or if you think all this suffering is the only way to perfection?
Thanks!

I will try,  Some may object that I am trying to limit God, but it is indeed the limits we "may" "perceive" that are not actually limits but laws that are of a perfect nature.

I do not believe God could perfect us to be one with him without us experiencing this life and what each of individually experience no matter how bad it is.

It is not about God being limited,  it is about God knowing the nature of all things including himself.


God spoke us into existence "knowing" we "will" be one with him (because his word does not return VOID) and we are simply in the cocoon of process to emerge as majestic as him being one.   This cocoon shields us from seeing what we will be and our struggle is the only way we can emerge as the beautiful butterfly.  He grieves with us because in order to give us that gift, we MUST go through what we go through, He knows our pain.  Our imaginations  can believe that God is NOT ALL powerful based upon that perfect assurance of the unchangable God.


I will try to say something different if that is not helpful.

Thanks Paul, that cleared it up perfectly.   :dsunny:  I totally agree with you and love that you added the part about God grieving with us in our pain.  :cloud9:

[sheila]

  Hi,

  Personally, I beleive that there will be a state of perfection and

sinlessness  of the creature,that will hold in contempt all sin

and disobediance that was exhibited before the creature was

  perfected.

   Ibeleive that the butterfly with it's wings will have contempt

  of the lowly worm stage when it crawled on it's belly. I beleive

the new creature that drinks of nectar and eats ambrosia will

have nothing but contempt for the lowly mean  nature previously

it's lot.  But will eternally Praise God for the metamorphosis

granted unto it