Everlasting contempt?

[Paul Hazelwood]

CHRIST took upon Himself, the PAIN and the DEATH that we ALL deserve for our lives and how they have been lived...  How shall He feel about MANY (most) of His SHEEP being run over the coals, when He has already endured this FOR THEM?  :mshock:

Isn't it "HIGH TIME" we began PREACHING that PEACE?  :dontknow:

Perhaps you could correct my perspective of what your saying if I am seeing it wrong, but here is a verse that explains this problem as I see it.

Hb 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving~ a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Despite Jesus sacrifice,  we see here that if you willfully sin after understanding what Jesus has done then Jesus Sacrifice does not exempt you from suffering the consequenses of your actions.   Now, sure, traditional Christianity will use this as a verse supporting the realm of an eternal hell, but what kind of peace gospel are we to preach when Jesus sacrifice which according to our belief system happened 2000 years ago and there is anything but pain and death everyday.

We do not find Jesus only preaching feel goodism, so what exactly is it about our master we are supposed to emulate?

[CHB]

(Heb. 10:26)For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

This is a verse I have wondered about also? Willie am looking forward to your answer on this.    :happy3:

CHB

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Me too CHB, I really love Wilie's posts, too. He gives me lots to think about. Blessings and glad to see you're back and able to post again......

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

I like you Paul... you are a thinker! (not a stinker!  :laughing7:)

We certainly DO experience EVIL... but it is the WORK of GOD, Revealing His KNOWLEDGE (though we experience evil), that is the LARGER portion of what is actually going on in those experiences...

Well, scripture seems to indicate something a bit different than what your saying.  God works all things, but there a difference between God working something because it has no power over him and something that is a "work" of God.

I beg to differ a bit with you me bratha...  :afFro:

Eph 1:11 -- God is WORKING ALL THINGS... So there is NOTHING in existence that His hand is DISATTACHED from...

Rom 13:1 -- ALL POWER is of GOD, for He is ALL MIGHTY -- and ANY POWER which is given according to HIS PURPOSE, is given by the counsel of HIS WILL, in the accomplishment of that WILL be in negative or positive in our observations.

He MAKES the NEGATIVE as well as the POSITIVE:

Jer 18:4 -- and the vessel that HE MADE of CLAY was MARRED -- in the HAND of the POTTER; so HE MADE it AGAIN, another vessel as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to make it

This abomination here is not a work of God.

Same answer... anything that is an "abomination" is a demonstration in TIME, of what IS an "abomination" and unacceptable in the realm of the ETERNAL, for ALL (eventually) to see...

Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

In WORKING ALL THINGS... ALL THINGS are not COMMANDED... For the demonstration of EVIL to be availed... the COMMAND to abstain from the TREE of KNOWLEDGE was given... and IN that COMMAND, along with the limited vision AND "choosing" of MAN done with UN-INFORMED vision (limited by God for Adam & Eve, had NOT the KNOWLEDGE)... IS the "vehicle" that manifested the difference of GOOD and EVIL to become  KNOWN

The GLORY is found in GOD's rescue of us FROM this realm... and we shall BE that GLORY on display FOR EVER in the Heavens and in the Earth.

:blush:  I did not entirely express my thought above:

Phil 2:10-11 -- GOD is GLORIFIED by the totality of each one...

Rom 9:23 -- Again, there is GREAT GLORY in the revealing of the Sons as YHVH is thereby seen as ALL in ALL...

We are not being rescued, we are being prepared.

You are welcome to this observation, and I do not entirely disagree with it, for WE ARE being PREPARED... but the CROWNING PART of that PREPARATION is the grand and ALL VICTORIOUS, RESCUE from DEATH, provided by CHRIST and YHVH.  Which is WAY larger than any of us, can presently imagine or percieve.

LIFE rescued that which was DEAD, from it's grasp...  :dontknow:

Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who ponders all his routes.

H6424  palac  paw-las'

a primitive root;

properly, to roll flat, i.e. prepare (a road); also to revolve, i.e. weigh
(mentally):--make, ponder, weigh.

I agree with this point, Paul.  :nod:

I believe there is NOTHING that the hand of GOD is disassociated FROM, including the pathways we EACH walk... for we are ALL traveling down the pathway of HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of that pathway.

:Peace: ...willieH  :cloud9:

[Beloved Servant]

Proverbs:

16:9; Douay-Rheims Bible
The heart of man disposeth his way: but the Lord must direct his steps.

Douay-Rheims Bible
20:24; The steps of man are guided by the Lord: but who is the man that can understand his own way?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Sorry ahead of time for the drawn out reply, but you know me... :blush:

I do think commentary on this verse deserves a DETAILED examination, for it is one of the problematic verses in Scripture which, when the common view of it is adopted, in my opinion... many other verses of Scripture are thereby violated by that view.

That said, here goes:

CHRIST took upon Himself, the PAIN and the DEATH that we ALL deserve for our lives and how they have been lived...  How shall He feel about MANY (most) of His SHEEP being run over the coals, when He has already endured this FOR THEM?  :mshock:

Isn't it "HIGH TIME" we began PREACHING that PEACE?  :dontknow:

Perhaps you could correct my perspective of what your saying if I am seeing it wrong, but here is a verse that explains this problem as I see it.

Let me begin by saying this bro... I admit, that I do NOT "know everything"... and to be truthful, I embrace that admission, as an opportunity for humility!  :mblush:

For what its worth, here is my  :2c:

Hb 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving~ a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Is this from "Concordant"?  I am used to observing it as written in the KJV... in that version here is the verse:

KJV --- Heb 10:26 -- for if we sin willfully after that we have recieved the knowledge of the TRUTH, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

Despite Jesus sacrifice,  we see here that if you willfully sin after understanding what Jesus has done then Jesus Sacrifice does not exempt you from suffering the consequenses of your actions.

It actually addresses "willful sin" once one has gained the "KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH"...  

What is the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH?  Is TRUTH encompassed in KNOWING that JESUS is your SAVIOR?  Or is TRUTH in fact much larger than this?  Has anyone the complete "knowledge of the TRUTH"?

The "knowledge" of the TRUTH to me means that you KNOW TRUTH in a given area.  And if you TRAMPLE upon the TRUTH in areas which it has been availed to you, then in those areas shall you meet recompense for "dissing" it.  

JESUS was not only sacrificed for REDEMPTION of SIN, He also endured torment which can and does relieve us from PHYSICAL INFIRMITY...

Concerning LIFE and DEATH, ...His sacrifice for SIN is REDEMPTIVE reconciliation for SIN = LIFE for DEATH, ...but the beatings & prior torments which He also suffered in the FLESH, were intended to relieve us from sorrows OF the FLESH that we suffer as well -- Isaiah 53:4 -- Matt 8:17

Most which read this verse, become FEARFUL (as with the "unpardonable sin") that they have SINNED in such a way that REMOVES JESUS' sacrifice for their SINS, and thereby... that somehow the SINNER must NOW PAY for them?  How can that be?  How can a SINNER reconcile him/herself to HOLINESS?  

Using ME as the subject... Might I say this... I am battling CANCER... God did not GIVE me CANCER... I "earned it"...  the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... well, ALL have sinned, and the DEATH we "EARN" is due to our trampling upon the COMMAND of God in our lives.  Just as was told to ADAM & EVE... death would result of disobedience to the COMMAND...  In this way following them, do we all "EARN" our own sufferings.

It is a MERCY of GOD which gives warnings such as is stated in -- Heb 10:26 -- that we might obtain MERCY in our obedience, instead of the SUFFERINGS we can and WILL experience in WILLFULLY mocking the MERCY.

I believe this verse is shown complying with -- 1 Cor 3:15 -- where the SINNER is still SAVED, albeit BY FIRE (which I believe to be the "LOF", which I also believe to be NOW, and which I also believe to be the FIRE of SUFFERINGS)

Here are some other things, that I see as WRONG within the SURFACE observation of this verse and which, as proposed by many -- that there are TORMENTS due beyond this life:

Consider this...

ON the SURFACE, ...this verse SEEMS to convey the idea that CHRIST's sacrifice for SIN is removed from a WILLFUL SINNER, ...but even in that SURFACE understanding, ...this understanding must STILL coincide and harmonize with other Scripture...

I do not believe this "SURFACE understanding" harmonizes with MANY other Scriptures, and  as I see it, this verse does not have ANYTHING to do with His sacrifice to SAVE us.

Why would YHVH who does not CHANGE and JESUS who does not CHANGE ---- change?   :mshock:

Also, this CHANGE is due to something ...I... did?  Do MY actions, defer the doings of the ALMIGHTY?  Causing HIM to give Salvation to me (of His doing) and REMOVE Salvation from me (of My doing) Sorry, ...I think NOT!

Here are some Scriptures which are violated in this thinking...

Is not JESUS the PERSON which "taketh away the SIN of the WORLD"? -- John 1:29 --  and am I not PART of that WORLD?

If the understanding of this verse is that ...I... must pay for My SIN (in order to be SAVED), ...then WHO is MY SAVIOR?  

If ...I... pay for My SIN... then WHO is making PEACE with GOD on My behalf?  JESUS is not, for HIS SACRIFICE is NOW removed from me...  :dontknow:  

Col 1:20-23 notes that PEACE concerning ALL THINGS, ...was accomplished by the CROSS of CHRIST -- except of course,  ...in MY CASE?  :mnah:  

Concerning REDEMPTION -- Heb 10:26 -- is not applicable... if so, this passage in Colossians, is nullified.

All we shall do, by noting -- Heb 10:26 -- as removing CHRIST's work to redeem us, is to continue to INVALIDATE Scripture!

There are many other verses which become VIOLATED by this concept, that CHRIST's REDEEMING sacrifice is REMOVED from a "willful" sinner. (btw, ALL SIN is something that is consciously done in any event, and is therefore done, WILLINGLY)

How about the Apostle Paul?  Did he not state that he, after his LONG confession in Romans 7, that to some degree, SIN would continue in him? -- Rom 7:25 -- And what about the Apostle John, who tells us that "if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT in us" -- 1 John 1:8 -- whattupwidat????

Shall we throw these Apostles on the "NOT SAVED" pile?

Now, sure, traditional Christianity will use this as a verse supporting the realm of an eternal hell, but what kind of peace gospel are we to preach when Jesus sacrifice which according to our belief system happened 2000 years ago and there is anything but pain and death everyday.

We do not find Jesus only preaching feel goodism, so what exactly is it about our master we are supposed to emulate?

PEACE does not involve other than PEACE... If there is TURMOIL of any kind in the experience, then the experience is to that degree, UNPEACEFUL.

In CONCLUSION --

I believe that -- Heb 10:26 -- simply conveys and HARMONIZES with the principle of SOWING and REAPING as noted by Paul in -- Gal 6:8 -- which notes that you shall NOT MOCK God... and if you have come to KNOW TRUTH and ignore it and/or disobey it, then the consequences of SOWING to the FLESH, shall be brought AGAINST the FLESH.  :dontknow:

Once we PHYSICALLY die... the FLESH is returned to DUST from where it came, and the sorrows OF it have seen their end.

In the end -- 1 John 4:18 -- PERFECT LOVE, casts OUT FEAR... not casts it out and then later, if we are not "good boys" :boyheart: & goils :girlheart: ---- RE-programs FEAR into us. :mnah:

Heb 10:26 -- is a warning that you shall bring upon yourself SUFFERING in your experience, that could have been avoided -- NOT -- that JESUS is no longer YOUR SAVIOR!

No matter what sins occur in your experience in the flesh, ...He shall be bringing your LIFE back -- from the DEATH you "earned" in that flesh.

But as you live within obedience to the COMMANDS within the WORD of YHVH, you shall allay much SUFFERING as well as FEAR, ...for in that subjection to His COMMANDS, it is displayed that HE is working RIGHTEOUSNESS IN YOU, which do not bring forth SUFFERINGS and FEAR, ...instead, they CAST THEM OUT...  :bgdance:

JESUS has ALREADY made PEACE by the PERFECT work of the CROSS -- Col 1:20 -- and is not only the SAVIOR from SIN which brings forth DEATH, ...but from its accompanying sufferings as well...

Hope that gives you some insight to my view of this very controversial Scripture.

...willieH :cloud9:

[Beloved Servant]

10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,

[Beloved Servant]

Brethren, there is but one life and that is in Christ Jesus.

[bobf]

We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.

Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.  

I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.

If an eternal order has been established then why does verse 14 speak of people outside the city having the right to enter into the city?

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[bobf]

Regarding Daniel 12:2

In the Septuagint the two red phrases below correspond to the exact same two Greek words.

Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Notice the next verse is about people being turned to righteousness.  ETers can't have anyone being turned to righteousness in the resurrection, so they must time warp this verse back to precede the verse it follows.

Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Here is YLT.  Seems to me that in the resurrection there will be "those teaching" and "those justifying the multitiudes".

Daniel 12:2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. 3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever.

Also let's remember that the words were sealed.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

[MacPherson]

We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.

Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily. 

I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.

I know the reasoning, but the reasoning is not sound,  even the idea of being in heaven forever, what verse says we are in heaven forever specifically and to that point when there will be a new heaven and earth?   

Rev 22:5 (In reference to the saints in the New Jerusalem)  And [there] they will reign for ever and ever....15 Outside are the dogs.

Nothing in that verse about being in heaven.   The word "there" is a biased addition.

I'm the one who added the "there" for clarification, because I wanted to keep the verses concise, "there" being in the gated city, the New Jerusalem. So if Rev 22 isn't talking about eternity in heaven, what  is it talking about?

[MacPherson]

We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.

Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily. 

I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.

If an eternal order has been established then why does verse 14 speak of people outside the city having the right to enter into the city?

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The assumption I suppose is that 14 & 15 is separating the (already) saved from the (forever) unsaved.

Seems you're implying the gates are open to ALL forever. And uh well, that just can't be. Can it?

[Paul Hazelwood]

We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.

Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily. 

I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.

I know the reasoning, but the reasoning is not sound,  even the idea of being in heaven forever, what verse says we are in heaven forever specifically and to that point when there will be a new heaven and earth?   

Rev 22:5 (In reference to the saints in the New Jerusalem)  And [there] they will reign for ever and ever....15 Outside are the dogs.

Nothing in that verse about being in heaven.   The word "there" is a biased addition.

I'm the one who added the "there" for clarification, because I wanted to keep the verses concise, "there" being in the gated city, the New Jerusalem. So if Rev 22 isn't talking about eternity in heaven, what  is it talking about?

Re 22:1 . And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.



It is talking about life.

[Paul Hazelwood]

We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.

Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily. 

I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.

If an eternal order has been established then why does verse 14 speak of people outside the city having the right to enter into the city?

Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The assumption I suppose is that 14 & 15 is separating the (already) saved from the (forever) unsaved.

Seems you're implying the gates are open to ALL forever. And uh well, that just can't be. Can it?

Again,  the passage makes no declaration that the gates ever close in fact implies the opposite.

The bible is about assurances that not many see.   One of the false objections to UR is that ALL are saved anyway.   So if your a believer and you think that your going to be in heaven with the murdering hitler because hitler is saved "anyway" that can be quite troublesome.

Well, it is troublesome because the objection is false.

These verses tell the truth.

Re 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Re 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.



It is true that the Dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers , murders , etc are without.


But wasn't Saul a murderer?   Will Saul ever be in heaven?   No Saul will never be in heaven,  but Saul is not a human,  Saul is evil.     But wait,   Paul will be in heaven,  what's going on here?   

[WhiteWings]

But wasn't Saul a murderer? Will Saul ever be in heaven? No Saul will never be in heaven, but Saul is not a human, Saul is evil. But wait, Paul will be in heaven, what's going on here?

:laughing7:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I beg to differ a bit with you me bratha...  :afFro:

Eph 1:11 -- God is WORKING ALL THINGS... So there is NOTHING in existence that His hand is DISATTACHED from...

Rom 13:1 -- ALL POWER is of GOD, for He is ALL MIGHTY -- and ANY POWER which is given according to HIS PURPOSE, is given by the counsel of HIS WILL, in the accomplishment of that WILL be in negative or positive in our observations.

He MAKES the NEGATIVE as well as the POSITIVE:

Jer 18:4 -- and the vessel that HE MADE of CLAY was MARRED -- in the HAND of the POTTER; so HE MADE it AGAIN, another vessel as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to make it

I am not actually making an argument that Gods hand is detached,  it is the manner in which it is not detached that I make points about.

The murderers hand is not detached from the gun he used to commit murder with, but without the murderers hand "attached" to the gun, would have the gun committed murder?

I think if Gods hand is not detached from a murderer then there must be something that distinguishes the difference between the murderer and the gun and God and the murderer don't you think?

[WhiteWings]

Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hb 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving~ a sacrifice concerned with sins,

Yes the one I posted is from the CLV.

Most which read this verse, become FEARFUL (as with the "unpardonable sin") that they have SINNED in such a way that REMOVES JESUS' sacrifice for their SINS, and thereby... that somehow the SINNER must NOW PAY for them?  How can that be?  How can a SINNER reconcile him/herself to HOLINESS?  

I agree that this verse is most often seen in the wrong light.   I agree with you that it is about reaping what we sow and is not about salvation in the first place.   I could stand to be more detailed concerning what I mean.   I undertsand that the wages of sin is death according to the scriptures,  but Sin really is nothing more than missing the mark.  So when I say the verse is about suffering the consequenses,  I do not place that in the light of salvation but in the light of suffering the consequenses of our specific actions.  

It is not an exclusive verse,  unbelievers sin and reap what they sow, it is a reminder that our gift that we are NOW AWARE of doesn't change that so as not to view our selves as better than those who NOW are not AWARE.

Using ME as the subject... Might I say this... I am battling CANCER... God did not GIVE me CANCER... I "earned it"...  the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... well, ALL have sinned, and the DEATH we "EARN" is due to our trampling upon the COMMAND of God in our lives.  Just as was told to ADAM & EVE... death would result of disobedience to the COMMAND...  In this way following them, do we all "EARN" our own sufferings.

Well  if viewed in some ways this can create a problem.   How did you earn something from a life you did not ask for and if God has ordained what you would do , then how has God not given you cancer?

I think the problem is that the phrase "The wages of sin is death" is also misused and misunderstood.   Sin in the realm of being subject to vanity against our will is simply imperfection.   We live in an inperfect world so why would we expect anything but imperfection to abound?   This is the problem I have with religions assertion that it will all change just by believing and the cop out that if it didn;t happen as expected than you didn;t believe enough while at the same time seeing "unbelievers" reaping the same averages of successes and failures.

You did not earn your cancer,  life happens and we carry on as best we can.   That's all it really amounts to.

We are told to resist evil and it will flee,  see willie, you may be giving an example, but I have seen people that see themselves as deserving of something like cancer and it is evil to think that way.   My sister is one of them and nothing good has come from her believe she is deserving of a life full of garbage.

Cancer in and of itself is not evil, it is a blemish of an imperfect world.  However. resist evil,  resist thinking you deserve it and the evil of that negativity will flee so that you are even better equipped to deal with the inherant imperfection of life.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"

I personally am not,  I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.

[WhiteWings]

Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"

I personally am not,  I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.

Thanks for the answer. It makes your post clearer for me.

[lomarah]

It seem that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet be, at least for a while, somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2)  Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these.  "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace.   This lack is applied in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc.  "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase. 

Not being overcomers, not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free.  They can be externally herded.  They are yet disciplined by need and lack.  They are still subject.  This is understandable considering the massive powers of immortal beings in the image of God.

:thumbsup: I agree Reformer!

Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"

I personally am not,  I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.

:goodpost:  I completely agree!

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

I beg to differ a bit with you me bratha...  :afFro:

Eph 1:11 -- God is WORKING ALL THINGS... So there is NOTHING in existence that His hand is DISATTACHED from...

Rom 13:1 -- ALL POWER is of GOD, for He is ALL MIGHTY -- and ANY POWER which is given according to HIS PURPOSE, is given by the counsel of HIS WILL, in the accomplishment of that WILL be in negative or positive in our observations.

He MAKES the NEGATIVE as well as the POSITIVE:

Jer 18:4 -- and the vessel that HE MADE of CLAY was MARRED -- in the HAND of the POTTER; so HE MADE it AGAIN, another vessel as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to make it

I am not actually making an argument that Gods hand is detached,  it is the manner in which it is not detached that I make points about.

The murderers hand is not detached from the gun he used to commit murder with, but without the murderers hand "attached" to the gun, would have the gun committed murder?

No matter HOW one tries to "slice the pie" there are TWO Scriptural facts...

(1) ALL "marring" is DONE in the HAND of the POTTER... at the DESCRETION of the POTTER as noted in -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:21 -- and

(2) In that "marring" can it be said that GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11

I think if Gods hand is not detached from a murderer then there must be something that distinguishes the difference between the murderer and the gun and God and the murderer don't you think?

Maybe I might esplain (sorry for the mexican accent, I just spoke with one of my best friends who is mexican, and I am still a bit, in character  :laughing7:)... how I see this...

The COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is present in the MIND and HEART of YHVH God... There is NO portion of EVIL which is NOT PART of His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of it...

NO EVENT in history has occured OUTSIDE of HIS KNOWLEDGE prior to its manifestation... and His INACTION concerning many events, displays HIS INTENT that it take place as it is FOREKNOWN to take place.  He brings ALL things into being and ALL things have meaning within HIS PERFECT, KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL!

EVIL is manifesting to its PERFECT ugliness, as an opposing MEMORIAL FOREVER to the grand and RIGHTEOUS position of GOOD...

So no matter how we might try to disassociate Him from those events which take place within HIS CREATION, because we RIGHTLY find them distasteful (in agreement with His LAW of Righteousness)... Does NOT REMOVE that He (however you wish to note it) ORDAINS or ALLOWS them to BE, ...many, without ANY intervention whatsoever, BY HIM...

Whatever way you percieve this to be -- ordaining or allowing -- in either case, does NOT disassociate Him with each MANIFESTATION as taking place within HIS WILL (and HIS WORK of ALL THINGS) ...and that each event MUST take place as it does. 

Otherwise, He is to THAT degree, NOT in control of His Creation, and NOT in control of the POWER used in those instances, and therefore NOT ALMIGHTY!   :mnah:

Personally, ...I think NOT!  He is IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS, ...PERIOD ---> .

... willieH  :winkgrin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Personally, ...I think NOT!  He is IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS, ...PERIOD ---> .

... willieH  :winkgrin:

No matter how it is sliced, I am not stating God is not in control.

Please explain what distinguishes the difference between a murderer and the gun and  God and the murderer.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Otherwise, He is to THAT degree, NOT in control of His Creation, and NOT in control of the POWER used in those instances, and therefore NOT ALMIGHTY!   :mnah:

I think what we may perceive as not almighty means very little.

1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.


Just because God is not in control a certain way, does not mean he is not in control and does not mean he is not almighty.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_king:

Using ME as the subject... Might I say this... I am battling CANCER... God did not GIVE me CANCER... I "earned it"...  the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... well, ALL have sinned, and the DEATH we "EARN" is due to our trampling upon the COMMAND of God in our lives.  Just as was told to ADAM & EVE... death would result of disobedience to the COMMAND...  In this way following them, do we all "EARN" our own sufferings.

Well  if viewed in some ways this can create a problem.   How did you earn something from a life you did not ask for and if God has ordained what you would do , then how has God not given you cancer?

That is a VERY good point! :nod:

That I "earn" wages (by sinning) is foreordained in His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of my actions. 

Something that is GIVEN is a scenario of distribution, other than EARNING...

If we are NOT "EARNING" by sinning, then there can be NO SUCH THING as "wages of SIN"...  :dontknow:  For a "wage" is payment for something, EARNED...

However, if GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE of us is PERFECT, how can we do otherwise, and His FOREKNOWLEDGE remain PERFECTLY intact?  So how can we note EARNING in a process which is WRITTEN in stone?

There are many such MYSTERIOUS observances that can be found in the Revelation of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL...

If GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?

If YOU were an observer of such an act as RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen?  And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act?  And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?

Just as GOD is not EVIL for His ordination that EVIL exist, ..."EARNING" is still relevant in His Creation concerning it, even though to manifest otherwise is IMPOSSIBLE, and yet His "GIVING" of the CANCER or RAPE, is not present in the recieving of these manifestations.   These remain results of SIN, as well as the WAGES EARNED -- and IN their manifestation, shall RIGHTFULLY bring sorrow and DEATH...

I am existent as a member of His family and body... and in my PORTION of the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE He has of CANCER, ...I am his tool within that display.  He did NOT give it to me, as His tool, ...even though I am His tool, I still have been set upon the earth TO EARN my place as a SINNER, it is not GIVEN to me to be a SINNER. 

He is not disattached from the EVIL that CANCER is, for HE created its concept and manifestational results (pain, suffering, death)...  but the LOST son, as a LIVING part of GOD and His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE (all in all), did his "earning" part (wasting the inheritance), by doing what GOD had FOREKNOWN of Him (also FOREKNOWING his return)... and was an ACTIVE part of the REVELATION process, even though concerning His EVIL actions, he could NOT do otherwise...

"CHOICE" is really NOT what it appears to us... Our "choices" can only be

(1) made from options HE makes available to us,

(2) made with the level of intellect HE gave us with which to make each choice as well as,

(3) each result of those "choices" according to LAWS and PRINCIPLES that HE established before we even existed, and

(4) are according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them...

So do we really "choose"?  :JCThink:

YES... but those choices are according to PERFECTION, be they GOOD or EVIL... and are about GOD, not us...  We are mere observers/participants of HIS unfolding and LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... and nothing that "we choose" is a "doing", that is relevant either way... for the RESULT is that the KNOWLEDGE is imparted to us by the process that is governed and controlled by HIM and His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of it.

This is the great problem that besets the BELIEVERS of Matt 7:22-23 -- They were "doing" the WORK of God, which noted such as PROPHECY, and CASTING OUT DEVILS, and other unmentioned WONDERFUL WORKS, yet CHRIST labels these as INIQUITOUS! 

GOD PERFECTLY knew before any of these BELIEVERS, "did" what they "did"... that they would "do" what they "did", so HOW could they "do" (choose) otherwise? 

And if so confined to the choosing according to GOD'S PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of these events, could they possibly be determined as perpetrators of INIQUITY?  :mshock:

It is because, this is all about GOD... not about US.  He is NOT unreasonable... our lack is due to the inability of the eyes of men to see the BIG PICTURE... which entails us RETURNING to where we EMERGED having EACH of us GAINED by our observations/participations here, the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which completes us as ETERNAL beings. 

Where YHVH IS ...ALL in ALL...

I think the problem is that the phrase "The wages of sin is death" is also misused and misunderstood.   Sin in the realm of being subject to vanity against our will is simply imperfection.   We live in an inperfect world so why would we expect anything but imperfection to abound?   This is the problem I have with religions assertion that it will all change just by believing and the cop out that if it didn;t happen as expected than you didn;t believe enough while at the same time seeing "unbelievers" reaping the same averages of successes and failures.

You did not earn your cancer, life happens and we carry on as best we can.   That's all it really amounts to.

We are told to resist evil and it will flee,  see willie, you may be giving an example, but I have seen people that see themselves as deserving of something like cancer and it is evil to think that way.   My sister is one of them and nothing good has come from her believe she is deserving of a life full of garbage.

You are welcome to your observation Paul...

I really did not "deserve" the CANCER... I was its recipient, because it is FOREORDAINED that I be its recipient... It is also FOREORDAINED that my part IS as it IS... regardless of how others (or even myself) might view my part.

Success and failure is nothing but a matter of observational perspective.  The JEWS viewed JESUS and His ministry as a FAILURE, for His uncompromising of it, brought Him to His death... but was their vision and perspective of Him, actually correct?

They and other human beings make this observation of CHRIST, because they do not have the eyes or ears to see Him, nor do they have these in order to facilitate that ALL things that ARE NOT (including the death of CHRIST... and "ME not winning the lotto"),  matters of SUCCESS or FAILURE, they are matters of the WILL of GOD... which in HIS conclusion of ALL THINGS, brings ALL THINGS into RIGHTEOUSNESS, for they are ALL emergent from HIS HAND.

Cancer in and of itself is not evil, it is a blemish of an imperfect world.  However. resist evil,  resist thinking you deserve it and the evil of that negativity will flee so that you are even better equipped to deal with the inherant imperfection of life.

Thanks for the advice... and I agree with it, ...but I already knew this principle, and have actively used it!  :wink1:

That ...I... am the one in the experience of it, gives me a bit more perspective than an external observer might have OF IT, such as yourself. 

It is not so much a case of DESERVING... it is a case of ONE PART fits the other, much like -- Up & Down -- Top & Bottom -- New and Old, ...are of themselves, not in a situation in the Creation that notes one to be better than the other, or that one is able to even BE without the other... For their existence is observed and wonderful because of BOTH being existent, emergent from the HAND of YHVH...

GOD ordains UNBELIEF that He might have MERCY by eventually manifesting FAITH in each... Does that mean that GOD desires us to NOT have FAITH? 

Again, the end result shows that FAITH is in fact what He desires... but without concluding the ORDINATION of UNBELIEF, how shall BELIEF have any meaning?

HEALING is on the same program.  If there were NO INFIRMITY, how would we enact our FAITH to diffuse the INFIRMITY?  Or, without INFIRMITY, what GLORY has HEALTH?

ALL power is of GOD -- Rom 13:1 -- Which puts Him in complete control as to the manifestation of CANCER, and the removal of it... be it HEALING or DEATH...

That does not mean that He "gives" it to a "deserving" party, any more than He "gives" the Rapist, his victim...  It means that in PERFECTION and the recognition.of IT... IMPERFECTION must be manifest in order that PERFECTION be recognized for what it is...

The FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD is both, GOOD and EVIL... irregardless of the refusal of men to recognize it as such.  And the purpose OF IT, is to reveal GOOD to its HIGHEST RECOGNITION, on an ETERNAL basis, by the PERFECT TEMPORAL manifestation of EVIL (which includes CANCER and RAPE)...

Thanks for your input, Paul...   :friendstu: you definitely do cause me to think, and I appreciate it. :Book: :declare:

...willieH  :cloud9: