Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2
What's your take on what everlasting contempt means?
Young's Literal Translation reads:
And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.
It's not the everlasting/aionios part I'm wondering about, but rather the overall implication.
What is everlasting contempt?
Hi,
I think it pertains to this.
Rev 23;15
OUTSIDE ARE THE DOGS,THOSE WHO PRACTICE MAJIC ARTS
THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL,THE MURDERS,THE IDOLATERS
AND EVERYONE WHO LOVES AND PRACTICES FALSEHOOD
I beleive all these things above will expierence everlasting
contempt. Mere dirt, the dross, filthy rags, sinful flesh etc
Jesus refining fire will cleanse and exclude with contempt
such things listed above
:HeartThrob:
I have problems with this verse also, more than with Matthew 25:46
Hi Guys,
Realizing He will remove such things from everyone, for all
mankind will bear the image of Jesus Christ.
Each man has his own goat that perishes in the wilderness,
and own sheep that enters into the kingdom.
Each man has a mark of the beast that dies..and a seal from
God in his forehead. Man has and will bear two images
the corruptible image will be destryed..the incorruptible
will have eternal life.
There is a definite end and casting outside of these things
despised from the Kingdom of Heaven. He does not throw the
baby out with the bathwater. But cleanses the child..and casts
away the mere dirt.
does that help any?
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2010, 05:57:02 PM
Hi,
I think it pertains to this.
Rev 23;15
OUTSIDE ARE THE DOGS,THOSE WHO PRACTICE MAJIC ARTS
THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL,THE MURDERS,THE IDOLATERS
AND EVERYONE WHO LOVES AND PRACTICES FALSEHOOD
I beleive all these things above will expierence everlasting
contempt. Mere dirt, the dross, filthy rags, sinful flesh etc
Jesus refining fire will cleanse and exclude with contempt
such things listed above
:HeartThrob:
Excellent correlation. 23:15 is the passage my pastor feels cements the Bible teaching eternal punishment as opposed to annihilation.
Quote from: sven on January 04, 2010, 06:53:07 PM
I have problems with this verse also, more than with Matthew 25:46
Most people have trouble with it. That's why I'm not bothered by most saints believing in and saying the Bible teaches eternal punishment.
willieH: How-D! :laughing7:
Concerning
Dan 2:2FIRST -- God is UNCHANGING... so whatever point "angers" Him, shall always be a point of "anger"... however, His "anger" is for a MOMENT which is the actual DURATION of His "anger"...
IOW -- He doesn't "stay mad"... He "gets over it"... however the point or thing that made Him "mad" could
never arise in Him other than "anger"... i.e. "everlasting contempt" (toward that "point")
EXAMPLE --
PAIN is a result of His Wrath... but PAIN shall CEASE, for the behaviors that BRING it FORTH, shall CEASE. :dontknow:
SECOND -- The actual meaning of the word "CONTEMPT" in this verse is "repulsion" -- which solidifies what I just said... that which is REPULSIVE to GOD, shall (or would be even though it shall not re-occur) ALWAYS be REPULSIVE to GOD...
EXAMPLE -- KILLING -- even though DEATH is eliminated by the CROSS of CHRIST, concerning ETERNITY, does not mean that GOD would EVER be any less "REPULSED" by it. For He is LIFE and the concept of DEATH is contrary to Himself.
THIRD -- In the story of Jonah -- He was actually tossed into the sea and swallowed up by the fish, for 3 Days and 3 Nights which was representative of the TIME period which
CHRIST would be in the tomb --
Jonah 1:17 --
The Hebrew word
OWLAM translated "for EVER" (same word as used in
Dan 2:2) is attached to this period in --
Jonah 2:6 -- as Jonah described the depth to which his sorrow had decended, but indeed it was NOT "for EVER" as Jonah was cast OUT of the Fish, within a
3 Day period.
What I am saying is that our sorrow, SHAME and regret IN THE
MOMENT of God's Anger" can be so deep as to appear "never ending" for THAT
MOMENT in its capacity to be SORROWFUL, is PERFECT and COMPLETE as HE is PERFECT and COMPLETE.
GOD shall not TORMENT anyone that rises from the dust, but as they, within their MOMENT (duration of God's "anger") are in the SHADOW of the CONTEMPT of PERFECT ANGER, ...said "MOMENT" shall not END "soon enough" :dontknow:
The SHAME that shall be experienced in the resurrection (as with Jonah and his plight in the fish) will actually be very BRIEF, but because of the PERFECTION of the MOMENT, it will seem UNENDING.
I have given this
example before...
TIME and its "duration" is a VERY RELATIVE entity. A "7-day vacation in Hawaii", goes by in a WISK! However, put your hand on a stove burner for 5 seconds and compare that 5 seconds to the 7 days of the vacation, and see which YOU THINK is LONGER! :laughing7::Peace:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: sheila on January 04, 2010, 08:20:30 PM
Hi Guys,
Realizing He will remove such things from everyone, for all
mankind will bear the image of Jesus Christ.
Each man has his own goat that perishes in the wilderness,
and own sheep that enters into the kingdom.
Each man has a mark of the beast that dies..and a seal from
God in his forehead. Man has and will bear two images
the corruptible image will be destryed..the incorruptible
will have eternal life.
There is a definite end and casting outside of these things
despised from the Kingdom of Heaven. He does not throw the
baby out with the bathwater. But cleanses the child..and casts
away the mere dirt.
does that help any?
Philosophically it sounds wonderful, but do you have hard Scripture to back it up? Say three that seem as strong and compelling as Daniel 12:2 + Matthew 25:46 + Rev 23:15 (the ET trifecta)?
(I'm playing Devil's Advocate here)
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 10:47:31 PM
Philosophically it sounds wonderful, but do you have hard Scripture to back it up? Say three that seem as strong and compelling as Daniel 12:2 + Matthew 25:46 + Rev 23:15 (the ET trifecta)?
(I'm playing Devil's Advocate here)
Devil's advocate, or not, bro... if EARS are not availed to the potential "listener" by GOD, ...a THOUSAND Scriptures will not convince an ET'er -- :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on January 04, 2010, 10:43:37 PM
willieH: How-D! :laughing7:
Concerning Dan 2:2
FIRST -- God is UNCHANGING... so whatever point "angers" Him, shall always be a point of "anger"... however, His "anger" is for a MOMENT which is the actual DURATION of His "anger"...
IOW -- He doesn't "stay mad"... He "gets over it"... however the point or thing that made Him "mad" could never arise in Him other than "anger"... i.e. "everlasting contempt" (toward that "point")
I just got finished reading God dealing with Cain for murdering Abel (I'm going through a daily reader Bible where you read the entire Bible in one year - which I highly recomend to any reading this) and how God dealt with him. There was no, "Forever I shall inflict agony and torment upon you".
Quote from: willieH on January 04, 2010, 10:53:49 PM
willieH: Hi Brian... :hithere:
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 10:47:31 PM
Philosophically it sounds wonderful, but do you have hard Scripture to back it up? Say three that seem as strong and compelling as Daniel 12:2 + Matthew 25:46 + Rev 23:15 (the ET trifecta)?
(I'm playing Devil's Advocate here)
Devil's advocate, or not, bro... if EARS are not availed to the potential "listener" by GOD, ...a THOUSAND Scriptures will not convince an ET'er -- :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
Many of course are concerned with not having itching ears. And on the surface, I can see how to many it sounds just like that. "Ye shall surely not die".
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
I know the reasoning, but the reasoning is not sound, even the idea of being in heaven forever, what verse says we are in heaven forever specifically and to that point when there will be a new heaven and earth?
What is the most common is many of us including me will have believed an interpretation given by religion more than a grounding in what scripture says as opposed to what it does not say.
I say this knowing that my reasoning for all I believe is often not sound, but based on what is pleasant.
Hi Brian,
one is two men shall be sleeping in a bed, one will be taken
and one will be left behind. Seperate the people one from
another, goats go into everlasting cutting off, sheep to the
kingdom prepared.Genesis 25;23...The Lord said to her,
TWO NATIONS ARE IN THY WOMB...and
TWO PEOPLES FROM WITHIN YOU WILL BE SEPERATED;
ONE PEOPLE WILL BE STRONGER THAN THE OTHER
AND THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER
Cursed be Canan the lowest of slaves will he be to his brother
Romans 9;11,12 yet, before the twins were born,
or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose in the election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls- she was told, the older will serve the younger. Just as it is written, Jacob I loved,Esau I hated...
v 21 Does not the potter HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE
OUT OF THE SAME LUMP OF CLAY SOME POTTERY FOR NOBLE
PURPOSES AND SOME FOR COMMON USE?
Matthew 8;28 The Healing of "two" demon possessed men
what do you want with us,son of God, did you come here to torture us before the appointed time?
Mark 5 The healing of 'A' demon possessed man
v 2 when Jesus got out of the boat "a" man with an evil spirit came to meet him.....v 6 when HE SAW JESUS FROM A DISTANCE, HE RAN AND FELL ON HIS KNEES IN FRONT OF HIM
....v.15 when they came to Jesus they saw the man that had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there dressed and in his right mind.
this is the same account two men in one, one taken,one left behind.
hope this gives him something to think about :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
willieH: hello me bratha's Brian :afFro: and Paul :icon_rr:
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
My :2c:
The ETERNAL "order" of things HAS ALWAYS BEEN, IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE... :dontknow:
TIME and the revelation of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which is GOD's KNOWLEDGE to begin with, ...is a temporal event for REVELATION only... not for "EXPERIENCE" in the ETERNAL.
MEN are emergent from the CREATIVE
WORD of GOD... which contains the KNOWLEDGE and is SO displaying it for ALL in Heaven and Earth to see...
The CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH are the LIVING players in this LIVING portrayal (of the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of the
WORD)... and a GREAT GLORY
is given unto the HEAD of them, as well as to the REST of them (the BODY) which
NEVER CHANGES... and is therefore PREPARED unto that UNCHANGING and ETERNAL GLORY...
SPIRITUALLY = when
JESUS came forth, ...His BODY came forth
WITH HIM... The REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (the
GOOD portion =
CHRIST = the HEAD)
IS FINISHED.
PHYSICALLY = But the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (the EVIL portion = ALL in ADAM = the BODY) is NOT FINISHED -- and yet to find its fullness. (but its getting pretty doggone close! :laughing7:)
The PERFECTLY GOOD --
HEAD NEVER SINNED and is the REDEEMER of the
BODY which COMPLETELY SINNED and thereby became PERFECTLY EVIL...
Many shall observe EVIL as something "IMPERFECT"... but nothing of GOD or HIS
WORD... which also NOTES EVIL, can be IMPERFECT...
The KNOWLEDGE that
YHVH holds of EVIL as well as GOOD, is a PERFECT [full] KNOWLEDGE of both! COMPLETE and ETERNAL...
For these are 2 sides of the same KNOWLEDGE, which is found in the
HEART [Father] and
WORD [Son - which is His expressed image and REVELATION of His HEART] --- of our complete and perfect,
YHVH GOD.
:Peace: willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on January 05, 2010, 01:46:22 AM
willieH: hello me bratha's Brian :afFro: and Paul :icon_rr:
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
My :2c:
The ETERNAL "order" of things HAS ALWAYS BEEN, IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE... :dontknow:
TIME and the revelation of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, which is GOD's KNOWLEDGE to begin with, ...is a temporal event for REVELATION only... not for "EXPERIENCE" in the ETERNAL.
MEN are emergent from the CREATIVE WORD of GOD... which contains the KNOWLEDGE and is SO displaying it for ALL in Heaven and Earth to see...
The CHILDREN of the MOST HIGH are the LIVING players in this LIVING portrayal (of the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of the WORD)... and a GREAT GLORY is given unto the HEAD of them, as well as to the REST of them (the BODY) which NEVER CHANGES... and is therefore PREPARED unto that UNCHANGING and ETERNAL GLORY...
SPIRITUALLY = when JESUS came forth, ...His BODY came forth WITH HIM... The REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (the GOOD portion = CHRIST = the HEAD) IS FINISHED.
PHYSICALLY = But the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD (the EVIL portion = ALL in ADAM = the BODY) is NOT FINISHED -- and yet to find its fullness. (but its getting pretty doggone close! :laughing7:)
The PERFECTLY GOOD -- HEAD NEVER SINNED and is the REDEEMER of the BODY which COMPLETELY SINNED and thereby became PERFECTLY EVIL...
Many shall observe EVIL as something "IMPERFECT"... but nothing of GOD or HIS WORD... which also NOTES EVIL, can be IMPERFECT...
The KNOWLEDGE that YHVH holds of EVIL as well as GOOD, is a PERFECT [full] KNOWLEDGE of both! COMPLETE and ETERNAL...
For these are 2 sides of the same KNOWLEDGE, which is found in the HEART [Father] and WORD [Son - which is His expressed image and REVELATION of His HEART] --- of our complete and perfect, YHVH GOD.
:Peace: willieH :cloud9:
Well, I see what your getting at, but it is also an example of what I am talking about.
Ec 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
If your saying scripture says we do not experience evil but the knowledge of it is revealed, then I have to side with scripture. It really doesn't matter how much people want to try to say Evil is just a perspective or an illusion, I have yet to see anyone actually live that premise in the face of even discomfort let alone full blown attacks of evil in ones life. Especially so when we are called to take action by resisting evil not finding ways to glorify in it.
When I find someone, or anyone else does, I'll be interested in seeing things differently perhaps.
It seem that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet be, at least for a while, somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2) Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these. "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace. This lack is applied in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc. "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase.
Not being overcomers, not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free. They can be externally herded. They are yet disciplined by need and lack. They are still subject. This is understandable considering the massive powers of immortal beings in the image of God.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 02:00:02 AM
Well, I see what your getting at, but it is also an example of what I am talking about.
Ec 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
If your saying scripture says we do not experience evil but the knowledge of it is revealed, then I have to side with scripture.
We certainly DO experience EVIL... but it is the WORK of GOD, Revealing His KNOWLEDGE (though we experience evil), that is the LARGER portion of what is actually going on in those experiences...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 02:00:02 AMIt really doesn't matter how much people want to try to say Evil is just a perspective or an illusion
,
Anyone who insists that EVIL is just a perspective or an illusion, hasn't been through life threatening, several hour, surgery! :laughing7: Nor has had a dibilitating long term disease, or lost a child, etc... :rolleye:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 02:00:02 AMI have yet to see anyone actually live that premise in the face of even discomfort let alone full blown attacks of evil in ones life. Especially so when we are called to take action by resisting evil not finding ways to glorify in it.
Agreed. We are, whether or not we enjoy it... are LIVING the FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD which contains GOOD
and EVIL... It is ONE KNOWLEDGE, and cannot be KNOWN unless BOTH are manifest within our experience...
The GLORY is found in GOD's rescue of us FROM this realm... and we shall BE that GLORY on display FOR EVER in the Heavens and in the Earth.
In my 64 years I can tell you that there have been so many moments in my life that have involved DISPAIR at the hands of the retributions of EVIL, I cannot even count them.
Years of life tell the tale... When I was 21, I... probably like most 21 year olds, thought I knew everything, but comparatively speaking concerning the actual KNOWLEDGE only gained by EXPERIENCE, I had in truth, experienced literally NOTHING. :blush:
In the EXPERIENCE of LIFE is knowledge OF IT, truly gained. Observing knowledge in a textbook which tells you it is painful to be SHOT with a bullet (how obvious), is a far cry from actually getting SHOT and FEELING and EXPERIENCING that PAIN! Yes the book indentifies a basic here & there, and can be somewhat informative... but the intangibles and DETAILS are only found within an experience of the information.
:Peace: ...willieH... :cloud9:
willieH: Hi reFormer... :icon_king:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 05, 2010, 05:35:36 AM
It seem that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet be, at least for a while, somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.
I don't agree brother reFormer... GOD is no respecter of persons (impartial)...
If you did not RECIEVE
PAIN or some "kind of inhibition" (whatever that might be), in your conversion from EVIL and another DOES... how has GOD remained IMPARTIAL to you both? :dontknow:
If some have to experience PAIN in their conversion (because GOD did NOT "foreordain" them) and there are those who do not have to experience this PAIN (because GOD DID "foreordain" them), are not the latter grouping being favored by Him, displaying PARTIALITY?
I don't see it. I do not see that PAIN concerning conversion is part of the "plan" for
PEACE... and if it IS so... the how can it be said that
CHRIST has "made
PEACE" for ALL THINGS, and that ALL FULLNESS is dwelling IN HIM? --
Col 1:19-20CHRIST took upon Himself, the PAIN and the DEATH that we ALL deserve for our lives and how they have been lived... How shall He feel about MANY (most) of His SHEEP being run over the coals, when He has already endured this FOR THEM? :mshock:
Isn't it "HIGH TIME" we began PREACHING that
PEACE? :dontknow:
As far as a relationship with "holy ones"... the only thing that makes anything
HOLY is
YHVH and His LOVE having been shed upon that one.
Again... a
moment of SHAME (which is what these shall experience) might be as overestimated as "5 seconds" is in my example of time:
A 7 day vacation can go by in a WISK! And 5 seconds with your hand on a stove burner trudges so slowly as to seem eternal... Try both and then tell us which of the 2 is the LONGER period of time. :laughing7:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 05, 2010, 05:35:36 AM"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2) Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these. "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace. This lack is applied in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc. "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase.
Not being overcomers, not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free. They can be externally herded. They are yet disciplined by need and lack. They are still subject. This is understandable considering the massive powers of immortal beings in the image of God
My question would be, "did anyone, OVERCOME, of themselves"? And if not, then why should those insufficient in this category, be penalized when the "1st resurrectioners" were "helped over the fence", and these not?
Eph 2:9 --
for we are HIS WORKMANSHIP -- [designed by the designer] -- Created in CHRIST JESUS unto GOOD WORKS, which -- GOD hath FOREORDAINED that we should WALK in themThose who "OVERCOME" have been FOREORDAINED (designed by a predetermined plan) to walk unto GOOD WORKS (overcoming)... Which said FOREORDAINATION was made by an IMPARTIAL God...
Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- and 8 othersSo why should GOD, give those NOT "foreordained", a "beatin" for not being FOREORDAINED
by HIM? (chosen to be amongst the 1st resurrection)
I maintain that there is no
PEACE found in such a concept... and that
CHRIST has ALREADY established
PEACE for ALL --
Col 1:20...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
I know the reasoning, but the reasoning is not sound, even the idea of being in heaven forever, what verse says we are in heaven forever specifically and to that point when there will be a new heaven and earth?
Rev 22:5 (In reference to the saints in the New Jerusalem) And [there] they will reign for ever and ever....15 Outside are the dogs.
Quote from: Brian on January 05, 2010, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
I know the reasoning, but the reasoning is not sound, even the idea of being in heaven forever, what verse says we are in heaven forever specifically and to that point when there will be a new heaven and earth?
Rev 22:5 (In reference to the saints in the New Jerusalem) And [there] they will reign for ever and ever....15 Outside are the dogs.
Nothing in that verse about being in heaven. The word "there" is a biased addition.
Quote from: willieH on January 05, 2010, 06:50:08 AM
We certainly DO experience EVIL... but it is the WORK of GOD, Revealing His KNOWLEDGE (though we experience evil), that is the LARGER portion of what is actually going on in those experiences...
Well, scripture seems to indicate something a bit different than what your saying. God works all things, but there a difference between God working something because it has no power over him and something that is a "work" of God.
This abomination here is not a work of God.
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
QuoteThe GLORY is found in GOD's rescue of us FROM this realm... and we shall BE that GLORY on display FOR EVER in the Heavens and in the Earth.
We are not being rescued, we are being prepared.
Pr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who ponders all his routes.
H6424 palac paw-las'
a primitive root;
properly, to roll flat, i.e. prepare (a road); also to revolve, i.e. weigh
(mentally):--make, ponder, weigh.
Quote from: willieH on January 05, 2010, 07:41:31 AM
CHRIST took upon Himself, the PAIN and the DEATH that we ALL deserve for our lives and how they have been lived... How shall He feel about MANY (most) of His SHEEP being run over the coals, when He has already endured this FOR THEM? :mshock:
Isn't it "HIGH TIME" we began PREACHING that PEACE? :dontknow:
Perhaps you could correct my perspective of what your saying if I am seeing it wrong, but here is a verse that explains this problem as I see it.
Hb 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving~ a sacrifice concerned with sins,
Despite Jesus sacrifice, we see here that if you willfully sin after understanding what Jesus has done then Jesus Sacrifice does not exempt you from suffering the consequenses of your actions. Now, sure, traditional Christianity will use this as a verse supporting the realm of an eternal hell, but what kind of peace gospel are we to preach when Jesus sacrifice which according to our belief system happened 2000 years ago and there is anything but pain and death everyday.
We do not find Jesus only preaching feel goodism, so what exactly is it about our master we are supposed to emulate?
(Heb. 10:26)For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
This is a verse I have wondered about also? Willie am looking forward to your answer on this. :happy3:
CHB
:cloud9: Me too CHB, I really love Wilie's posts, too. He gives me lots to think about. Blessings and glad to see you're back and able to post again......
willieH: Hi Paul... :cloud9:
I like you Paul... you are a thinker! (not a stinker! :laughing7:)
Quote from: willieH on January 05, 2010, 06:50:08 AM
We certainly DO experience EVIL... but it is the WORK of GOD, Revealing His KNOWLEDGE (though we experience evil), that is the LARGER portion of what is actually going on in those experiences...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 04:36:18 PMWell, scripture seems to indicate something a bit different than what your saying. God works all things, but there a difference between God working something because it has no power over him and something that is a "work" of God.
I beg to differ a bit with you me bratha... :afFro:
Eph 1:11 -- God is WORKING
ALL THINGS... So there is
NOTHING in existence that His hand is DISATTACHED
from...
Rom 13:1 -- ALL POWER is of GOD, for He is ALL MIGHTY -- and ANY POWER which is given according to HIS PURPOSE, is given by the counsel of HIS WILL, in the accomplishment of that WILL be in negative or positive in our observations.
He MAKES the NEGATIVE as well as the POSITIVE:
Jer 18:4 --
and the vessel that HE MADE of CLAY was MARRED -- in the HAND of the POTTER; so HE MADE it AGAIN, another vessel as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to make itQuote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 04:36:18 PMThis abomination here is not a work of God.
Same answer... anything that is an "abomination" is a demonstration in TIME, of what IS an "abomination" and unacceptable in the realm of the ETERNAL, for ALL (eventually) to see...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 04:36:18 PM Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
In WORKING ALL THINGS... ALL THINGS are not COMMANDED... For the demonstration of EVIL to be availed... the COMMAND to abstain from the TREE of KNOWLEDGE was given... and IN that COMMAND, along with the limited vision AND "choosing" of MAN done with UN-INFORMED vision (limited by God for Adam & Eve, had NOT the KNOWLEDGE)... IS the "vehicle" that manifested the difference of GOOD and EVIL to become
KNOWNQuote from: willieHThe GLORY is found in GOD's rescue of us FROM this realm... and we shall BE that GLORY on display FOR EVER in the Heavens and in the Earth.
:blush: I did not entirely express my thought above:
Phil 2:10-11 -- GOD is
GLORIFIED by the totality of each one...
Rom 9:23 -- Again, there is GREAT
GLORY in the revealing of the Sons as YHVH is thereby seen as
ALL in
ALL...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 04:36:18 PMWe are not being rescued, we are being prepared.
You are welcome to this observation, and I do not entirely disagree with it, for WE
ARE being
PREPARED... but the CROWNING PART of that PREPARATION is the grand and ALL VICTORIOUS, RESCUE from DEATH, provided by
CHRIST and
YHVH. Which is WAY larger than any of us, can presently imagine or percieve.
LIFE
rescued that which was DEAD, from it's grasp... :dontknow:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 04:36:18 PMPr 5:21 For the ways of a man are before the eyes of Yahweh, Who ponders all his routes.
H6424 palac paw-las'
a primitive root;
properly, to roll flat, i.e. prepare (a road); also to revolve, i.e. weigh
(mentally):--make, ponder, weigh.
I agree with this point, Paul. :nod:
I believe there is
NOTHING that the hand of GOD is disassociated FROM, including the pathways we EACH walk... for we are ALL traveling down the pathway of HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of that pathway.
:Peace: ...willieH :cloud9:
Proverbs:
16:9; Douay-Rheims Bible
The heart of man disposeth his way: but the Lord must direct his steps.
Douay-Rheims Bible
20:24; The steps of man are guided by the Lord: but who is the man that can understand his own way?
willieH: Hi Paul... :cloud9:
Sorry ahead of time for the drawn out reply, but you know me... :blush:
I do think commentary on this verse deserves a DETAILED examination, for it is one of the problematic verses in Scripture which, when the common view of it is adopted, in my opinion... many other verses of Scripture are thereby violated by that view.
That said, here goes:
Quote from: willieH on January 05, 2010, 07:41:31 AM
CHRIST took upon Himself, the PAIN and the DEATH that we ALL deserve for our lives and how they have been lived... How shall He feel about MANY (most) of His SHEEP being run over the coals, when He has already endured this FOR THEM? :mshock:
Isn't it "HIGH TIME" we began PREACHING that PEACE? :dontknow:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 05:44:07 PMPerhaps you could correct my perspective of what your saying if I am seeing it wrong, but here is a verse that explains this problem as I see it.
Let me begin by saying this bro... I admit, that I do NOT "know everything"... and to be truthful, I embrace that admission, as an opportunity for humility! :mblush:
For what its worth, here is my :2c:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 05:44:07 PMHb 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving~ a sacrifice concerned with sins,
Is this from "Concordant"? I am used to observing it as written in the KJV... in that version here is the verse:
KJV ---
Heb 10:26 --
for if we sin willfully after that we have recieved the knowledge of the TRUTH, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 05:44:07 PMDespite Jesus sacrifice, we see here that if you willfully sin after understanding what Jesus has done then Jesus Sacrifice does not exempt you from suffering the consequenses of your actions.
It actually addresses "willful sin" once one has gained the "KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH"...
What is the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH? Is TRUTH encompassed in KNOWING that
JESUS is your SAVIOR? Or is TRUTH in fact much larger than this? Has anyone the complete "knowledge of the TRUTH"?
The "knowledge" of the
TRUTH to me means that you KNOW
TRUTH in a given area. And if you TRAMPLE upon the TRUTH in areas which it has been availed to you, then in
those areas shall you meet recompense for "dissing" it.
JESUS was not only sacrificed for REDEMPTION of SIN, He also endured torment which can and does relieve us from PHYSICAL INFIRMITY...
Concerning LIFE and DEATH, ...His sacrifice for SIN is REDEMPTIVE reconciliation for SIN = LIFE for DEATH, ...but the beatings & prior torments which He also suffered in the FLESH, were intended to relieve us from sorrows OF the FLESH that we suffer as well --
Isaiah 53:4 -- Matt 8:17Most which read this verse, become FEARFUL (as with the "unpardonable sin") that they have SINNED in such a way that REMOVES
JESUS' sacrifice for their SINS, and thereby... that somehow the SINNER must NOW PAY for them? How can that be? How can a SINNER reconcile him/herself to HOLINESS?
Using ME as the subject... Might I say this... I am battling CANCER... God did not GIVE me CANCER... I "earned it"... the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... well, ALL have sinned, and the DEATH we "EARN" is due to our trampling upon the COMMAND of God in our lives. Just as was told to ADAM & EVE... death would result of disobedience to the COMMAND... In this way following them, do we all "EARN" our own sufferings.
It is a MERCY of GOD which gives warnings such as is stated in --
Heb 10:26 -- that we might obtain MERCY in our obedience, instead of the SUFFERINGS we can and WILL experience in WILLFULLY mocking the MERCY.
I believe this verse is shown complying with --
1 Cor 3:15 -- where the SINNER is still SAVED, albeit BY FIRE (which I believe to be the "LOF", which I also believe to be
NOW, and which I also believe to be the FIRE of SUFFERINGS)
Here are some other things, that I see as WRONG within the SURFACE observation of this verse and which, as proposed by many -- that there are TORMENTS due beyond this life:
Consider this...
ON the SURFACE, ...this verse SEEMS to convey the idea that
CHRIST's sacrifice for SIN is removed from a WILLFUL SINNER, ...but even in that
SURFACE understanding, ...this understanding must STILL coincide and harmonize with other Scripture...
I do not believe this "SURFACE understanding" harmonizes with MANY other Scriptures, and as I see it, this verse does
not have ANYTHING to do with His sacrifice to
SAVE us.
Why would
YHVH who does not CHANGE and
JESUS who does not CHANGE ---- change? :mshock:
Also, this CHANGE is due to something ...I... did? Do MY actions, defer the doings of the ALMIGHTY? Causing HIM to give Salvation to me (of His doing) and REMOVE Salvation from me (of My doing) Sorry, ...I think NOT!
Here are some Scriptures which are violated in this thinking...
Is not
JESUS the PERSON which "taketh away the SIN of the WORLD"? --
John 1:29 -- and am I not PART of that WORLD?
If the understanding of this verse is that ...I... must pay for My SIN (in order to be SAVED), ...then
WHO is MY SAVIOR?
If ...I... pay for My SIN... then
WHO is making
PEACE with GOD on My behalf?
JESUS is not, for HIS SACRIFICE is NOW removed from me... :dontknow:
Col 1:20-23 notes that
PEACE concerning
ALL THINGS, ...was accomplished by the CROSS of
CHRIST -- except of course, ...in MY CASE? :mnah:
Concerning REDEMPTION --
Heb 10:26 -- is not applicable... if so, this passage in Colossians, is nullified.
All we shall do, by noting --
Heb 10:26 -- as removing
CHRIST's work to redeem us, is to continue to INVALIDATE Scripture!
There are many other verses which become VIOLATED by this concept, that
CHRIST's REDEEMING sacrifice is REMOVED from a "willful" sinner. (btw, ALL SIN is something that is consciously done in any event, and is therefore done, WILLINGLY)
How about the Apostle Paul? Did he not state that he, after his LONG confession in
Romans 7, that to some degree, SIN would continue in him? --
Rom 7:25 -- And what about the Apostle John, who tells us that "if we SAY we have NO SIN, we DECIEVE ourselves and the TRUTH is NOT in us" --
1 John 1:8 -- whattupwidat????
Shall we throw these Apostles on the "NOT SAVED" pile?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 05:44:07 PMNow, sure, traditional Christianity will use this as a verse supporting the realm of an eternal hell, but what kind of peace gospel are we to preach when Jesus sacrifice which according to our belief system happened 2000 years ago and there is anything but pain and death everyday.
We do not find Jesus only preaching feel goodism, so what exactly is it about our master we are supposed to emulate?
PEACE does not involve other than
PEACE... If there is TURMOIL of any kind in the experience, then the experience is to that degree,
UNPEACEFUL.
In
CONCLUSION --
I believe that --
Heb 10:26 -- simply conveys and HARMONIZES with the principle of SOWING and REAPING as noted by Paul in --
Gal 6:8 -- which notes that you shall NOT
MOCK God... and if you have come to KNOW TRUTH and ignore it and/or disobey it, then the
consequences of SOWING to the FLESH, shall be brought AGAINST the FLESH. :dontknow:
Once we PHYSICALLY die... the FLESH is returned to DUST from where it came, and the sorrows OF it have seen their end.
In the end --
1 John 4:18 -- PERFECT
LOVE, casts OUT FEAR... not casts it out and then later, if we are not "good boys" :boyheart: & goils :girlheart: ---- RE-programs FEAR into us. :mnah:
Heb 10:26 -- is a warning that you shall bring upon yourself SUFFERING in your experience, that could have been avoided -- NOT -- that
JESUS is no longer YOUR SAVIOR!
No matter what sins occur in your experience in the flesh, ...He shall be bringing your LIFE back -- from the DEATH
you "earned" in that flesh.
But as you live within obedience to the COMMANDS within the
WORD of
YHVH, you shall
allay much SUFFERING as well as
FEAR, ...for in that subjection to His COMMANDS, it is displayed that HE is working RIGHTEOUSNESS IN YOU, which do not bring forth SUFFERINGS and FEAR, ...instead, they
CAST THEM OUT... :bgdance:
JESUS has ALREADY made
PEACE by the PERFECT work of the
CROSS --
Col 1:20 -- and is not only the SAVIOR from SIN which brings forth DEATH, ...but from its accompanying sufferings as well...
Hope that gives you some insight to my view of this very controversial Scripture.
...willieH :cloud9:
10 to know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, conforming to His death,
Brethren, there is but one life and that is in Christ Jesus.
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
If an eternal order has been established then why does verse 14 speak of people outside the city having the right to enter into the city?
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Regarding Daniel 12:2
In the Septuagint the two red phrases below correspond to the exact same two Greek words.
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Notice the next verse is about people being turned to righteousness. ETers can't have anyone being turned to righteousness in the resurrection, so they must time warp this verse back to precede the verse it follows.
Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Here is YLT. Seems to me that in the resurrection there will be "those teaching" and "those justifying the multitiudes".
Daniel 12:2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. 3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever.
Also let's remember that the words were sealed.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 02:56:28 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 05, 2010, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
I know the reasoning, but the reasoning is not sound, even the idea of being in heaven forever, what verse says we are in heaven forever specifically and to that point when there will be a new heaven and earth?
Rev 22:5 (In reference to the saints in the New Jerusalem) And [there] they will reign for ever and ever....15 Outside are the dogs.
Nothing in that verse about being in heaven. The word "there" is a biased addition.
I'm the one who added the "there" for clarification, because I wanted to keep the verses concise, "there" being in the gated city, the New Jerusalem. So if Rev 22 isn't talking about eternity in heaven, what is it talking about?
Quote from: bobf on January 06, 2010, 06:52:20 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
If an eternal order has been established then why does verse 14 speak of people outside the city having the right to enter into the city?
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
The assumption I suppose is that 14 & 15 is separating the (already) saved from the (forever) unsaved.
Seems you're implying the gates are open to ALL forever. And uh well, that just can't be. Can it?
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2010, 09:35:19 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 05, 2010, 02:56:28 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 05, 2010, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 11:30:04 PM
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
I know the reasoning, but the reasoning is not sound, even the idea of being in heaven forever, what verse says we are in heaven forever specifically and to that point when there will be a new heaven and earth?
Rev 22:5 (In reference to the saints in the New Jerusalem) And [there] they will reign for ever and ever....15 Outside are the dogs.
Nothing in that verse about being in heaven. The word "there" is a biased addition.
I'm the one who added the "there" for clarification, because I wanted to keep the verses concise, "there" being in the gated city, the New Jerusalem. So if Rev 22 isn't talking about eternity in heaven, what is it talking about?
Re 22:1 . And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
It is talking about life.
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2010, 09:45:22 AM
Quote from: bobf on January 06, 2010, 06:52:20 AM
Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2010, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 04, 2010, 10:51:08 PM
We all have trouble with any verse because we bias what it says beyond what is actually written.
Revelation 22:15 all by itself does not mention they are outside forever, nor does it even say they are outside temporarily.
I think that at this point being in heaven forever has been established, so the conclusion is that those who are outside, are also outside forever. That the eternal order of things has been established at this point.
If an eternal order has been established then why does verse 14 speak of people outside the city having the right to enter into the city?
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
The assumption I suppose is that 14 & 15 is separating the (already) saved from the (forever) unsaved.
Seems you're implying the gates are open to ALL forever. And uh well, that just can't be. Can it?
Again, the passage makes no declaration that the gates ever close in fact implies the opposite.
The bible is about assurances that not many see. One of the false objections to UR is that ALL are saved anyway. So if your a believer and you think that your going to be in heaven with the murdering hitler because hitler is saved "anyway" that can be quite troublesome.
Well, it is troublesome because the objection is false.
These verses tell the truth.
Re 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Re 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
It is true that the Dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers , murders , etc are without.
But wasn't Saul a murderer? Will Saul ever be in heaven? No Saul will never be in heaven, but Saul is not a human, Saul is evil. But wait, Paul will be in heaven, what's going on here?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 04:17:14 PMBut wasn't Saul a murderer? Will Saul ever be in heaven? No Saul will never be in heaven, but Saul is not a human, Saul is evil. But wait, Paul will be in heaven, what's going on here?
:laughing7:
Quote from: willieH on January 06, 2010, 12:23:49 AM
I beg to differ a bit with you me bratha... :afFro:
Eph 1:11 -- God is WORKING ALL THINGS... So there is NOTHING in existence that His hand is DISATTACHED from...
Rom 13:1 -- ALL POWER is of GOD, for He is ALL MIGHTY -- and ANY POWER which is given according to HIS PURPOSE, is given by the counsel of HIS WILL, in the accomplishment of that WILL be in negative or positive in our observations.
He MAKES the NEGATIVE as well as the POSITIVE:
Jer 18:4 -- and the vessel that HE MADE of CLAY was MARRED -- in the HAND of the POTTER; so HE MADE it AGAIN, another vessel as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to make it
I am not actually making an argument that Gods hand is detached, it is the manner in which it is not detached that I make points about.
The murderers hand is not detached from the gun he used to commit murder with, but without the murderers hand "attached" to the gun, would have the gun committed murder?
I think if Gods hand is not detached from a murderer then there must be something that distinguishes the difference between the murderer and the gun and God and the murderer don't you think?
Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"
QuoteHb 10:26 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is not longer leaving~ a sacrifice concerned with sins,
Yes the one I posted is from the CLV.
Quote from: willieH on January 06, 2010, 03:39:59 AM
Most which read this verse, become FEARFUL (as with the "unpardonable sin") that they have SINNED in such a way that REMOVES JESUS' sacrifice for their SINS, and thereby... that somehow the SINNER must NOW PAY for them? How can that be? How can a SINNER reconcile him/herself to HOLINESS?
I agree that this verse is most often seen in the wrong light. I agree with you that it is about reaping what we sow and is not about salvation in the first place. I could stand to be more detailed concerning what I mean. I undertsand that the wages of sin is death according to the scriptures, but Sin really is nothing more than missing the mark. So when I say the verse is about suffering the consequenses, I do not place that in the light of salvation but in the light of suffering the consequenses of our specific actions.
It is not an exclusive verse, unbelievers sin and reap what they sow, it is a reminder that our gift that we are NOW AWARE of doesn't change that so as not to view our selves as better than those who NOW are not AWARE.
Quote
Using ME as the subject... Might I say this... I am battling CANCER... God did not GIVE me CANCER... I "earned it"... the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... well, ALL have sinned, and the DEATH we "EARN" is due to our trampling upon the COMMAND of God in our lives. Just as was told to ADAM & EVE... death would result of disobedience to the COMMAND... In this way following them, do we all "EARN" our own sufferings.
Well if viewed in some ways this can create a problem. How did you earn something from a life you did not ask for and if God has ordained what you would do , then how has God not given you cancer?
I think the problem is that the phrase "The wages of sin is death" is also misused and misunderstood. Sin in the realm of being subject to vanity against our will is simply imperfection. We live in an inperfect world so why would we expect anything but imperfection to abound? This is the problem I have with religions assertion that it will all change just by believing and the cop out that if it didn;t happen as expected than you didn;t believe enough while at the same time seeing "unbelievers" reaping the same averages of successes and failures.
You did not earn your cancer, life happens and we carry on as best we can. That's all it really amounts to.
We are told to resist evil and it will flee, see willie, you may be giving an example, but I have seen people that see themselves as deserving of something like cancer and it is evil to think that way. My sister is one of them and nothing good has come from her believe she is deserving of a life full of garbage.
Cancer in and of itself is not evil, it is a blemish of an imperfect world. However. resist evil, resist thinking you deserve it and the evil of that negativity will flee so that you are even better equipped to deal with the inherant imperfection of life.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 06, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"
I personally am not, I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 08:30:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 06, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"
I personally am not, I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.
Thanks for the answer. It makes your post clearer for me.
Quote from: reFORMer on January 05, 2010, 05:35:36 AM
It seem that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet be, at least for a while, somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2) Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these. "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace. This lack is applied in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc. "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase.
Not being overcomers, not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free. They can be externally herded. They are yet disciplined by need and lack. They are still subject. This is understandable considering the massive powers of immortal beings in the image of God.
:thumbsup: I agree Reformer!
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 08:30:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 06, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"
I personally am not, I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.
:goodpost: I completely agree!
willieH: Hi Paul... :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on January 06, 2010, 12:23:49 AM
I beg to differ a bit with you me bratha... :afFro:
Eph 1:11 -- God is WORKING ALL THINGS... So there is NOTHING in existence that His hand is DISATTACHED from...
Rom 13:1 -- ALL POWER is of GOD, for He is ALL MIGHTY -- and ANY POWER which is given according to HIS PURPOSE, is given by the counsel of HIS WILL, in the accomplishment of that WILL be in negative or positive in our observations.
He MAKES the NEGATIVE as well as the POSITIVE:
Jer 18:4 -- and the vessel that HE MADE of CLAY was MARRED -- in the HAND of the POTTER; so HE MADE it AGAIN, another vessel as seemed GOOD to the POTTER to make it
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 07:20:03 PMI am not actually making an argument that Gods hand is detached, it is the manner in which it is not detached that I make points about.
The murderers hand is not detached from the gun he used to commit murder with, but without the murderers hand "attached" to the gun, would have the gun committed murder?
No matter HOW one tries to "slice the pie" there are TWO Scriptural facts...
(1) ALL "marring" is DONE in the HAND of the POTTER... at the DESCRETION of the POTTER as noted in --
Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:21 -- and
(2) In that "marring" can it be said that GOD is WORKING ALL THINGS --
Eph 1:11Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 07:20:03 PMI think if Gods hand is not detached from a murderer then there must be something that distinguishes the difference between the murderer and the gun and God and the murderer don't you think?
Maybe I might esplain (sorry for the mexican accent, I just spoke with one of my best friends who is mexican, and I am still a bit,
in character :laughing7:)... how I see this...
The COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is present in the MIND and HEART of
YHVH God... There is NO portion of EVIL which is NOT PART of His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of it...
NO EVENT in history has occured OUTSIDE of HIS KNOWLEDGE prior to its manifestation... and His INACTION concerning many events, displays HIS INTENT that it take place as it is FOREKNOWN to take place. He brings ALL things into being and ALL things have meaning within HIS PERFECT, KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL!
EVIL is manifesting to its PERFECT ugliness, as an opposing MEMORIAL FOREVER to the grand and RIGHTEOUS position of GOOD...
So no matter how we might try to disassociate Him from those events which take place within HIS CREATION, because we RIGHTLY find them distasteful (in agreement with His LAW of Righteousness)... Does NOT REMOVE that He (however you wish to note it) ORDAINS or ALLOWS them to
BE, ...many, without ANY intervention whatsoever, BY HIM...
Whatever way you percieve this to be --
ordaining or allowing -- in either case, does NOT disassociate Him with each MANIFESTATION as taking place within HIS WILL (and HIS WORK of ALL THINGS) ...and that each event MUST take place as it does.
Otherwise, He is to THAT degree, NOT in control of His Creation, and NOT in control of the POWER used in those instances, and therefore NOT ALMIGHTY! :mnah:
Personally, ...I think NOT! He is IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS, ...
PERIOD ---> .... willieH :winkgrin:
Quote from: willieH on January 06, 2010, 10:55:23 PM
Personally, ...I think NOT! He is IN CONTROL of ALL THINGS, ...PERIOD ---> .
... willieH :winkgrin:
No matter how it is sliced, I am not stating God is not in control.
Please explain what distinguishes the difference between a murderer and the gun and God and the murderer.
Quote from: willieH on January 06, 2010, 10:55:23 PM
Otherwise, He is to THAT degree, NOT in control of His Creation, and NOT in control of the POWER used in those instances, and therefore NOT ALMIGHTY! :mnah:
I think what we may perceive as not almighty means very little.
1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.
Just because God is not in control a certain way, does not mean he is not in control and does not mean he is not almighty.
willieH: Hi Paul... :icon_king:
Quote from: willieH
Using ME as the subject... Might I say this... I am battling CANCER... God did not GIVE me CANCER... I "earned it"... the WAGES of SIN is DEATH... well, ALL have sinned, and the DEATH we "EARN" is due to our trampling upon the COMMAND of God in our lives. Just as was told to ADAM & EVE... death would result of disobedience to the COMMAND... In this way following them, do we all "EARN" our own sufferings.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 08:28:26 PMWell if viewed in some ways this can create a problem. How did you earn something from a life you did not ask for and if God has ordained what you would do , then how has God not given you cancer?
That is a
VERY good point! :nod:
That I "earn" wages (by sinning) is foreordained in His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of my actions.
Something that is
GIVEN is a scenario of distribution, other than
EARNING...
If we are NOT "EARNING" by sinning, then there can be NO SUCH THING as "wages of SIN"... :dontknow: For a "wage" is payment for something, EARNED...
However, if GOD's FOREKNOWLEDGE of us is PERFECT, how can we do otherwise, and His FOREKNOWLEDGE remain PERFECTLY intact? So how can we note EARNING in a process which is WRITTEN in stone?
There are many such MYSTERIOUS observances that can be found in the Revelation of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD & EVIL...
If GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as
RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?
If YOU were an observer of such an act as
RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen? And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act? And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?
Just as GOD is
not EVIL for His ordination that EVIL exist, ..."EARNING" is still relevant in His Creation concerning it, even though to manifest otherwise is IMPOSSIBLE, and yet His "GIVING" of the CANCER or RAPE, is not present in the recieving of these manifestations. These remain results of SIN, as well as the WAGES EARNED -- and IN their manifestation, shall RIGHTFULLY bring sorrow and DEATH...
I am existent as a member of His family and body... and in my PORTION of the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE He has of CANCER, ...I am his tool within that display. He did NOT
give it to me, as His tool, ...even though I am His tool, I still have been set upon the earth TO EARN my place as a SINNER, it is not GIVEN to me to be a SINNER.
He is not disattached from the EVIL that CANCER is, for HE created its concept and manifestational results (pain, suffering, death)... but the LOST son, as a LIVING part of GOD
and His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE (all in all), did his "earning" part (wasting the inheritance), by doing what GOD had FOREKNOWN of Him (also FOREKNOWING his return)... and was an ACTIVE part of the REVELATION process, even though concerning His EVIL actions, he could NOT do otherwise...
"CHOICE" is really NOT what it appears to us... Our "choices" can only be
(1) made from options HE makes available to us,
(2) made with the level of intellect HE gave us with which to make each choice as well as,
(3) each result of those "choices" according to LAWS and PRINCIPLES that HE established before we even existed, and
(4) are according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of them...
So do we really "choose"? :JCThink:
YES... but those choices are according to PERFECTION, be they GOOD or EVIL... and are about GOD, not us... We are mere observers/participants of HIS unfolding and LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... and nothing that "we choose" is a "doing", that is relevant either way... for the RESULT is that the KNOWLEDGE is imparted to us by the process that is governed and controlled by HIM and His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of it.
This is the great problem that besets the BELIEVERS of
Matt 7:22-23 -- They were "doing" the WORK of God, which noted such as PROPHECY, and CASTING OUT DEVILS, and other unmentioned WONDERFUL WORKS, yet
CHRIST labels these as INIQUITOUS!
GOD PERFECTLY knew before any of these BELIEVERS, "did" what they "did"... that they would "do" what they "did", so HOW could they "do" (choose) otherwise?
And if so confined to the choosing according to GOD'S PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE of these events, could they possibly be determined as perpetrators of INIQUITY? :mshock:
It is because, this is all about GOD... not about US. He is NOT unreasonable... our lack is due to the inability of the eyes of men to see the BIG PICTURE... which entails us RETURNING to where we EMERGED having EACH of us GAINED by our observations/participations here, the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which completes us as
ETERNAL beings.
Where
YHVH IS ...ALL in ALL...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 08:28:26 PMI think the problem is that the phrase "The wages of sin is death" is also misused and misunderstood. Sin in the realm of being subject to vanity against our will is simply imperfection. We live in an inperfect world so why would we expect anything but imperfection to abound? This is the problem I have with religions assertion that it will all change just by believing and the cop out that if it didn;t happen as expected than you didn;t believe enough while at the same time seeing "unbelievers" reaping the same averages of successes and failures.
You did not earn your cancer, life happens and we carry on as best we can. That's all it really amounts to.
We are told to resist evil and it will flee, see willie, you may be giving an example, but I have seen people that see themselves as deserving of something like cancer and it is evil to think that way. My sister is one of them and nothing good has come from her believe she is deserving of a life full of garbage.
You are welcome to your observation Paul...
I really did not "deserve" the CANCER... I was its recipient, because it is FOREORDAINED that I be its recipient... It is also FOREORDAINED that my part IS as it IS... regardless of how others (or even myself) might view my part.
Success and failure is nothing but a matter of observational perspective. The JEWS viewed
JESUS and His ministry as a FAILURE, for His uncompromising of it, brought Him to His death... but was their vision and perspective of Him, actually correct?
They and other human beings make this observation of
CHRIST, because they do not have the eyes or ears to see Him, nor do they have these in order to facilitate that ALL things that ARE NOT (including the death of
CHRIST... and "ME not winning the lotto"), matters of SUCCESS or FAILURE, they are matters of the WILL of GOD... which in HIS conclusion of ALL THINGS, brings ALL THINGS into RIGHTEOUSNESS, for they are ALL emergent from HIS HAND.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 08:28:26 PMCancer in and of itself is not evil, it is a blemish of an imperfect world. However. resist evil, resist thinking you deserve it and the evil of that negativity will flee so that you are even better equipped to deal with the inherant imperfection of life.
Thanks for the advice... and I agree with it, ...but I already knew this principle, and have actively used it! :wink1:
That ...I... am the one in the experience of it, gives me a bit more perspective than an external observer might have OF IT, such as yourself.
It is not so much a case of
DESERVING... it is a case of ONE PART fits the other, much like -- Up & Down -- Top & Bottom -- New and Old, ...are of themselves, not in a situation in the Creation that notes one to be better than the other, or that one is able to even BE without the other... For their existence is observed and wonderful because of BOTH being existent, emergent from the HAND of
YHVH...
GOD ordains UNBELIEF that He might have MERCY by eventually manifesting FAITH in each... Does that mean that GOD desires us to NOT have FAITH?
Again, the end result shows that FAITH is in fact what He desires... but without concluding the ORDINATION of UNBELIEF, how shall BELIEF have any meaning?
HEALING is on the same program. If there were NO INFIRMITY, how would we enact our FAITH to diffuse the INFIRMITY? Or, without INFIRMITY, what GLORY has HEALTH?
ALL power is of GOD --
Rom 13:1 -- Which puts Him in complete control as to the manifestation of CANCER, and the removal of it... be it HEALING or DEATH...
That does not mean that He "gives" it to a "deserving" party, any more than He "gives" the Rapist, his victim... It means that in PERFECTION and the recognition.of IT... IMPERFECTION must be manifest in order that PERFECTION be recognized for what it is...
The FOREKNOWLEDGE of GOD is both, GOOD
and EVIL... irregardless of the refusal of men to recognize it as such. And the purpose OF IT, is to reveal GOOD to its HIGHEST RECOGNITION, on an ETERNAL basis, by the PERFECT TEMPORAL manifestation of EVIL (which includes CANCER and RAPE)...
Thanks for your input, Paul... :friendstu: you definitely do cause me to think, and I appreciate it. :Book: :declare:
...willieH :cloud9:
willieH: Hi Paul... :icon_king:
Quote from: willieH on January 06, 2010, 10:55:23 PM
Otherwise, He is to THAT degree, NOT in control of His Creation, and NOT in control of the POWER used in those instances, and therefore NOT ALMIGHTY! :mnah:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 11:18:44 PMI think what we may perceive as not almighty means very little.
That is your opinion, and you are welcome to it... the opposite opinion which I have expressed has EVERY bit as much validity... for REASON dictates, that if even the SMALLEST PORTION of MIGHT is taken away, that the entity which had "ALL MIGHT", no longer
has "ALL MIGHT"...
If I have ALL the MONEY, and someone takes SOME of it... The TRUTH is that I no longer have ALL the MONEY, irregardless of an obstinate position which refuses to recognize this.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 11:18:44 PM1C 1:25 for the stupidity of God is wiser than humanmen, and the weakness of God is stronger than humanmen.
I soitenly agree with this verse... GOD does impart his wisdom to men... then vanity or wisdom is subsequently engaged... and REASON is either recieved or rejected... :dontknow:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 11:18:44 PMJust because God is not in control a certain way, does not mean he is not in control and does not mean he is not almighty.
Again an ILLOGICAL conclusion based upon stubborness... You are welcome to buck
REASON, many do... :sigh:
God calls us to
REASON --
Isaiah 1:18 -- but only HE, being
ALMIGHTY, decides who shall come under its wisdom, and when.
There will always be VANITY amongst men... until GOD decides to what degrees it is removed, in favor of what is NOT VAIN, that being His
WORD and the TRUTH contained in it, which will ALWAYS be aligned with
REASON, not obtinacy...
...willieH :cloud9:
Quote from: willieH on January 07, 2010, 01:16:11 AM
Again an ILLOGICAL conclusion based upon stubborness
You will have to do better than to say I am stubborn in order to prove a point illogical.
If you are correct, then your point is as illogical as mine since you are as stubborn in your point of view.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 06, 2010, 08:30:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 06, 2010, 07:56:36 PM
Paul are you saying humanity is "the gun"
I personally am not, I think the position that we have absolutely no freedom of our own will in effect does state that we are the gun, which is why I do not agree with that belief.
ALL POWER is of God... including the technology that brought forth the gun, and the EMPOWERED user of it.
He has revealed knowledge to men which HE already had... and MEN only utilize that knowledge, according to HIS FOREKNOWLEDGE of the utilization of the knowledge revealed.
Including both the gun and the man that uses it.
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2010, 01:27:15 AM
Quote from: willieH on January 07, 2010, 01:16:11 AM
Again an ILLOGICAL conclusion based upon stubborness
You will have to do better than to say I am stubborn in order to prove a point illogical.
If you are correct, then your point is as illogical as mine since you are as stubborn in your point of view.
I have already proven your observation to be ILLOGICAL... and only continuing stubborness (not refutation of that example), has been availed in your answer here. :dontknow:
Quote from: willieHIf I have ALL the MONEY [might], and someone takes SOME of it... The TRUTH is that I no longer have ALL the MONEY [might], ...irregardless of an obstinate position which refuses to recognize this.
Refute my example if you can. Then you will give some creedence to your position as not being "stubborn"... :laughing7:
...willieH :cloud9:
QuoteThat is your opinion, and you are welcome to it... the opposite opinion which I have expressed has EVERY bit as much validity... for REASON dictates, that if even the SMALLEST PORTION of MIGHT is taken away, that the entity which had "ALL MIGHT", no longer has "ALL MIGHT"...
It is just as reasonable to conclude that something can have control over something different ways.
Is there really only one way to have control? No there is not, that is just a fact.
The end goal of something often determines the manner in which something must be controlled.
The terrorist will have to control something a different way than Love will.
Quote from: willieH on January 07, 2010, 01:46:08 AM
I have already proven your observation to be ILLOGICAL... and only continuing stubborness (not refutation of that example), has been availed in your answer here. :dontknow:
No, you have merely disguised your proof as an insult. Just because I disagree with you, does not mean I am illogical or stubborn in the negative light you wish to cast me in. Since you rest your conclusions logic on your belief that I am stubborn, your conclusion is in error.
So it is you that have not proven anything.
willieH: :thumbdown:
Quote from: willieH on January 07, 2010, 01:46:08 AM
I have already proven your observation to be ILLOGICAL... and only continuing stubborness (not refutation of that example), has been availed in your answer here. :dontknow:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2010, 01:51:01 AMNo, you have merely disguised your proof as an insult.
Boy, if you don't take the cake Paul... I have commended you within this conversation, thanking you for your input, you reciprocate disagreement, with a tongue lashing, and accusation.
I have DISGUISED nothing... I have a sincere motive as I post, and NEVER have a hidden desire to INSULT YOU... to your SHAME have you made these remarks. :thumbdown:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2010, 01:51:01 AMJust because I disagree with you, does not mean I am illogical or stubborn in the negative light you wish to cast me in.
Chill out! :msealed: Your vanity is showing. :thumbdown:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2010, 01:51:01 AMSince you rest your conclusions logic on your belief that I am stubborn, your conclusion is in error.
So it is you that have not proven anything.
All you have done here is NOTHING but create dissension -- which is obviously your motive.
If you really could REFUTE the
REASON as noted in the example I gave to you TWICE, ...you would... instead we have this:
Quote from: PHIt is just as reasonable to conclude that something can have control over something different ways.
Is there really only one way to have control? No there is not, that is just a fact.
The end goal of something often determines the manner in which something must be controlled.
The terrorist will have to control something a different way than Love will.
Strawman answer... poorly presented.
A terrorist NEVER
CAN and NEVER
WILL make the claim of
ALMIGHTY... and all this pathetic response is, is your continuing failing to find the humility you have so often, lacked...
Stick with whatcha know, that is... if it is "knowledge" at all... :rolleye:
It doesn't matter to me what "you think you know"... in your obstinacy.
...willieH :sigh:
Quote from: willieH on January 07, 2010, 02:16:07 AM
Boy, if you don't take the cake Paul... I have commended you within this conversation, thanking you for your input, you reciprocate disagreement, with a tongue lashing, and accusation.
Calling me stubborn and obstinate as a point against what i have said is an insult, perhaps you should take you own advise and acknowledge your insult for what it is. You are free to try to twist it around as if your the poor injured party, but it is what it is, an insult, and your denial of it changes nothing.
Quote from: Brian on January 06, 2010, 09:45:22 AMThe assumption I suppose is that 14 & 15 is separating the (already) saved from the (forever) unsaved.
Seems you're implying the gates are open to ALL forever. And uh well, that just can't be. Can it?
We see the same thing implied in Revelation 21:25-26 and Isaiah 60. After the New Jerusalem decends from heaven, there are those within the city, and those without the city, sitting in darkness, and the gates remain open for those on the outside who come to the light of the city.
Good suggestion Taf, I've been watching the thread and realized one of the participants in the thread was becoming unecessarily "personal", and was considering intervening. I like your idea, and agree. If not stopped, then at least private. :thumbsup: James.
With understanding, this one standing by says, "Amen."
Quote from: willieH on January 05, 2010, 07:41:31 AM
willieH: Hi reFormer... :icon_king:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 05, 2010, 05:35:36 AM
It seems that even when all are resurrected, those who didn't have part in the 1st resurrection will yet be, at least for a while, somehow subject to some kind of inhibition, if not pain, as they are brought on into relationship with God and the holy ones.
I don't agree brother reFormer... GOD is no respecter of persons (impartial)...
If you did not RECIEVE PAIN or some "kind of inhibition" (whatever that might be), in your conversion from EVIL and another DOES... how has GOD remained IMPARTIAL to you both? :dontknow:
If some have to experience PAIN in their conversion (because GOD did NOT "foreordain" them) and there are those who do not have to experience this PAIN (because GOD DID "foreordain" them), are not the latter grouping being favored by Him, displaying PARTIALITY?
I don't see it. I do not see that PAIN concerning conversion is part of the "plan" for PEACE... and if it IS so... the how can it be said that CHRIST has "made PEACE" for ALL THINGS, and that ALL FULLNESS is dwelling IN HIM? -- Col 1:19-20
CHRIST took upon Himself, the PAIN and the DEATH that we ALL deserve for our lives and how they have been lived... How shall He feel about MANY (most) of His SHEEP being run over the coals, when He has already endured this FOR THEM? :mshock:
Isn't it "HIGH TIME" we began PREACHING that PEACE? :dontknow:
As far as a relationship with "holy ones"... the only thing that makes anything HOLY is YHVH and His LOVE having been shed upon that one.
Again... a moment of SHAME (which is what these shall experience) might be as overestimated as "5 seconds" is in my example of time:
A 7 day vacation can go by in a WISK! And 5 seconds with your hand on a stove burner trudges so slowly as to seem eternal... Try both and then tell us which of the 2 is the LONGER period of time. :laughing7:
Quote from: reFORMer on January 05, 2010, 05:35:36 AM"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:2) Here "contempt" (KJV) is from a root meaning repulse,something that may need to be yet done to control and train these. "Shame" (fem.) here (which can mean pudenda) relates in the original to a condition due to a lack of grace. This lack is applied in such examples as being of an enemy army, being barren, uncircumsied, or a widow; betroth, as if a surrender, etc. "...to reproach for eonian repulsion" is how the Concordant Literal renders the phrase.
Not being overcomers, not in sufficient likeness or similitude of God they are not quite free. They can be externally herded. They are yet disciplined by need and lack. They are still subject. This is understandable considering the massive powers of immortal beings in the image of God
Quote from: willieH on January 05, 2010, 07:41:31 AM
My question would be, "did anyone, OVERCOME, of themselves"? And if not, then why should those insufficient in this category, be penalized when the "1st resurrectioners" were "helped over the fence", and these not?
Eph 2:9 -- for we are HIS WORKMANSHIP -- [designed by the designer] -- Created in CHRIST JESUS unto GOOD WORKS, which -- GOD hath FOREORDAINED that we should WALK in them
Those who "OVERCOME" have been FOREORDAINED (designed by a predetermined plan) to walk unto GOOD WORKS (overcoming)... Which said FOREORDAINATION was made by an IMPARTIAL God... Acts 10:34 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- and 8 others
So why should GOD, give those NOT "foreordained", a "beatin" for not being FOREORDAINED by HIM? (chosen to be amongst the 1st resurrection)
I maintain that there is no PEACE found in such a concept... and that CHRIST has ALREADY established PEACE for ALL -- Col 1:20
...willieH :cloud9:
The following is some basic info from blueletterbible concerning the two significant Hebrew words of the passage in question. The copy of Gesenius doesn't cut and paste, but is much more fullsome and worthy of going to the site to read. These words are used in the context of resurrection though you speak of it as "conversion." That's fine as long as it is understood that, for all three dimension of occurrence, "vivification of the spirit, rousing of the soul, and raising of the body" much of the terminology is interchangeable. Certainly this passage in Daniel applies to resurrection of the body!Daniel 12:2 (AV)...
And many 7227 of them that sleep 3463 in the dust 6083 of the earth 127 shall awake 6974 , some to everlasting 5769 life 2416, and some to
shame 2781 [and] everlasting 5769 contempt 1860.
"shame" H2781:
חֶרְפָּה
Transliteration: cherpah
Pronunciation: kher·pä'
Part of speech:
feminine noun
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) reproach, scorn
a) taunt, scorn (upon enemy)
b) reproach (resting upon condition of shame, disgrace)
c) a reproach (an object)
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count -- Total: 73
AV — reproach 67, shame 3, rebuke 2, reproachfully 1
+++++++
Root Word (Etymology)>From (H2778)
Transliteration: charaph.
Pronunciation: khä·raf'
primitive root
Part of speech:
verb
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) to reproach, taunt, blaspheme, defy, jeopardise, rail, upbraid
a) (Qal) to reproach
b) (Piel) to reproach, defy, taunt
2) (Qal) to winter, spend harvest time, remain in harvest time
3) (Niphal) to acquire, be betrothed
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count -- Total: 41
AV — reproach 27, defy 8, betrothed 1, blasphemed 1, jeoparded 1, rail 1, upbraid 1, winter 1
____________________________
Daniel 12:2 (AV)...
And many 7227 of them that sleep 3463 in the dust 6083 of the earth 127 shall awake 6974 , some to everlasting 5769 life 2416, and some to shame 2781 [and] everlasting 5769
contempt 1860.
"contempt" H1860
דְּרָאוֺן
Transliteration: dĕra'own
Pronunciation: der·ä·ōn'
Part of speech:
masculine noun
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) aversion, abhorrence
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2
AV — abhorring 1 contempt 1
Really, this is God's Word. What would you have me do? I attempted a simple explanation of this information. What's to disagree with? As far as differences among people, they are all around you everyday. You theory of God's non-preferential treatment seems like it doesn't match the facts of everbody's experience or the testimony of Scripture. Sure, God is no respector of persons; but that doesn't mean He treats everybody a like. He points out that talking to Abraham face to face is very unusual. He also singled out Sodom and Gomora for some exceptional displays of His wrath.
Supposing I have twin sons and I tell them they cannot go over to their friend Joe's house after school; but, they must come straight home and do their homework. It's doubly important because semester finals are just around the corner. Sean goes over to Joe's, not coming home until time for supper. Geof came home and did his homework. When I get there in time to eat together with them I discover the situation. I tell Geof he'll be going with me to the concert I'd been given tickets for, while Sean will have to stay home and take care of his school stuff he should've already had done. If both of them had done their work as I told them, both of them would've gone along. I would not be playing favorites by treating them differently. Actually treating them alike, letting Sean come along anyway would be showing respect of persons.
Repeatedly, from the old prophets to Jesus and Paul and even in the last chapter of the Bible it says that God will render to everyone according to their works. For Him to make exceptions would break the characteristic equity of God. The following selections of Scripture illustrate there are difference between all of us. The resurrection will widen these distinguishing features of each man. "...for star is excelling star in glory." It will be "...each man in his own order." The more we are like God the more unique we become.Luke 12:47-48 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
47 "
Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.48 Now
he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him.
1 Corinthians 15:35-42 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
35 But someone will be protesting, "How are the dead being roused? Now with what body are they coming?"
36 Imprudent one! What you are sowing is not being vivified if it should not be dying.
37 And, what you are sowing, you are not sowing the body which shall come to be, but a naked kernel, perchance of wheat or some of the rest.
38 Yet God is giving it a body according as He wills, and to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one, indeed, of men, yet another flesh of beasts, yet another flesh of flyers, yet another of fishes.
40 There are bodies celestial as well as bodies terrestrial. But a different glory, indeed, is that of the celestial, yet a different that of the terrestrial,
41 another glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars,
for star is excelling star in glory.
42 Thus also is the resurrection of the dead.The following should be memorized by every new believer. It present a true contradiction. God foreordained the betrayal and crucifixion of Jesus. Because God determined this it has to happen. Yet the one betraying Him is haeld responsible! We need to learn to keep mutually exclusive truths in our head."And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" (Lk 22:22, AV)
Quote from: Taffy on January 07, 2010, 02:59:40 AM
Paul\Willie :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Plz continue your debate in Private... as the board no longer has the facility for a One to One as per times gone by.
Thanks Guys
:icon_flower:
You're of course right, brother G... but I have no further comments toward him, nor desire to discuss with this guy at all, again.
I might jump into the discussion again, but not concerning him or any other comments he might make in it... He is welcome to his position, doesn't matter to me.
...willieH :cloud9:
reFORMer: THANK YOU!! You said exactly what I have been trying to say and in a much better way than I could have said it. :cloud9: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
willieH quoted:
QuoteIf GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?
If YOU were an observer of such an act as RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen? And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act? And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?
This has bothered me for a long time... how God could sit by and let things like rape and horrible things happen. One day a while back when I was still a fairly new believer I was watching the news and they had a story on about a young girl who was walking home from school one day and two men came out and completely brutalized her... they raped her and mutilated her... plucked out her eyes and it was just so horrible. I am crying now even thinking about the story. Anyhow, I was so angry and I just couldn't imagine how God and His holy angels could sit by and watch as this all happened and not do anything about it. I screamed at Him, "HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN??? WHY DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING TO STOP THIS??" Then in my mind's eye I saw her sitting at the feet of Jesus and she was so peaceful and so happy and He was just loving her and it was so beautiful. (Crying again...) It was like what had happened on earth didn't even really matter at all. (Not that our actions on this earth don't matter, but that the pain that she had gone through was so short and so nothing compared to the Love and peace she had now and will continue to have for all eternity.) This didn't answer all my questions, obviously, but one day I know that it will all make sense and all will be right and Love will reign in EVERY heart and I can't wait for that day.
Quote from: Taffy on January 07, 2010, 02:59:40 AM
Paul\Willie :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Plz continue your debate in Private... as the board no longer has the facility for a One to One as per times gone by.
Thanks Guys
:icon_flower:
No reason to take it private. I think if a persons posts making personal comments are left in public view the recipient of those comments has the right to address them in public view.
I will refrain from any further comments directly to Willie in this thread concerning the posts that have been made up to this point.
Quote from: lomarah on January 07, 2010, 04:35:35 PM
reFORMer: THANK YOU!! You said exactly what I have been trying to say and in a much better way than I could have said it. :cloud9: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
willieH quoted: QuoteIf GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?
If YOU were an observer of such an act as RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen? And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act? And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?
This has bothered me for a long time... how God could sit by and let things like rape and horrible things happen. One day a while back when I was still a fairly new believer I was watching the news and they had a story on about a young girl who was walking home from school one day and two men came out and completely brutalized her... they raped her and mutilated her... plucked out her eyes and it was just so horrible. I am crying now even thinking about the story. Anyhow, I was so angry and I just couldn't imagine how God and His holy angels could sit by and watch as this all happened and not do anything about it. I screamed at Him, "HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN??? WHY DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING TO STOP THIS??" Then in my mind's eye I saw her sitting at the feet of Jesus and she was so peaceful and so happy and He was just loving her and it was so beautiful. (Crying again...) It was like what had happened on earth didn't even really matter at all. (Not that our actions on this earth don't matter, but that the pain that she had gone through was so short and so nothing compared to the Love and peace she had now and will continue to have for all eternity.) This didn't answer all my questions, obviously, but one day I know that it will all make sense and all will be right and Love will reign in EVERY heart and I can't wait for that day.
There is a reality in scripture when it tells us to pray for what must happen. The charge to pray is not to change things, it is to draw strength to endure what MUST be. It must be that way, not because God chose for us to suffer when the ALL powerful God could of perfected us without it, it is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion.
It is not God nor the angels sitting by in inaction when they could do otherwise it is understanding there is only one way to perfection, God cannot change that, because he does not change, not because he is not LOVE.
Hey Paul,
Could you explain this further, i'm not quite sure what you mean:
Quoteit is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion.
Also I wasn't quite sure whether you think God could have perfected us without all this suffering or if you think all this suffering is the only way to perfection?
Thanks!
Quote from: lomarah on January 07, 2010, 09:18:46 PM
Hey Paul,
Could you explain this further, i'm not quite sure what you mean: Quoteit is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion.
Also I wasn't quite sure whether you think God could have perfected us without all this suffering or if you think all this suffering is the only way to perfection?
Thanks!
I will try, Some may object that I am trying to limit God, but it is indeed the limits we "may" "perceive" that are not actually limits but laws that are of a perfect nature.
I do not believe God could perfect us to be one with him without us experiencing this life and what each of individually experience no matter how bad it is.
It is not about God being limited, it is about God knowing the nature of all things including himself.
God spoke us into existence "knowing" we "will" be one with him (because his word does not return VOID) and we are simply in the cocoon of process to emerge as majestic as him being one. This cocoon shields us from seeing what we will be and our struggle is the only way we can emerge as the beautiful butterfly. He grieves with us because in order to give us that gift, we MUST go through what we go through, He knows our pain. Our imaginations can believe that God is NOT ALL powerful based upon that perfect assurance of the unchangable God.
I will try to say something different if that is not helpful.
willieH: Hi lomarah... :cloud9:
Since it was my words that you quoted, I thought I might elaborate upon them a bit... hope you don't mind... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: willieHIf GOD is GOOD, and such a thing as RAPE occurs parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE of both the victim and the rapist, and GOD (being GOOD -- also parallel to His FOREKNOWLEDGE) does not act on behalf of the victim assaulted of EVIL, but rather stands inert in our observation, then how may we continue to deduce Him as GOOD, Paul?
If YOU were an observer of such an act as RAPE, could you passively stand by and let it happen? And if you DID, would you not be considered as CONDONING the act? And thereby also be considered "AS EVIL" (in your own way) as the PERP?
Quote from: lomarah on January 07, 2010, 04:35:35 PMThis has bothered me for a long time... how God could sit by and let things like rape and horrible things happen. One day a while back when I was still a fairly new believer I was watching the news and they had a story on about a young girl who was walking home from school one day and two men came out and completely brutalized her... they raped her and mutilated her... plucked out her eyes and it was just so horrible. I am crying now even thinking about the story. Anyhow, I was so angry and I just couldn't imagine how God and His holy angels could sit by and watch as this all happened and not do anything about it. I screamed at Him, "HOW COULD YOU LET THIS HAPPEN??? WHY DIDN'T YOU DO ANYTHING TO STOP THIS??" Then in my mind's eye I saw her sitting at the feet of Jesus and she was so peaceful and so happy and He was just loving her and it was so beautiful. (Crying again...) It was like what had happened on earth didn't even really matter at all. (Not that our actions on this earth don't matter, but that the pain that she had gone through was so short and so nothing compared to the Love and peace she had now and will continue to have for all eternity.) This didn't answer all my questions, obviously, but one day I know that it will all make sense and all will be right and Love will reign in EVERY heart and I can't wait for that day.
YHVH's Knowledge which is NOT inhibited or confined by TIME, is ETERNAL and it is PERFECT concerning BOTH Good
and Evil...
In other words, AS, ...JOY is ever existent in the ETERNAL... and
PERFECT... the DEPTH of EVIL in God's
PERFECT knowledge
of it, includes all that atrocities that have occured in Created Time.
And as in your vision, shall no longer BE, but shall remain the UGLYand REPULSIVE comparitive, that designates BEAUTY and JOY for what it truly
IS, GLORIFYING GOD for it, ...for EVER...
God Created Time
from ETERNITY --- in which EVIL was NOT KNOWN, except by His
UNSPOKEN and INWARD, KNOWLEDGE of it... GOD Himself, LIVES and COMMANDS LIFE to be LIVED according to the LAW of HOLINESS --
Rom 7:12 -- In order that HIS SONS be ALL that He IS, ...they needed to KNOW the COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE which was within His HEART, unexpressed in Eternity.
Here is REASON:
Because
YHVH would not allow ETERNITY to be TAINTED in any way, He CREATED Time -- and in the course of TIME -- 1 Tim 2:6 -- He has brought forth INTO IT each of His SONS for the PURPOSE of
KNOWING Good and Evil --
Gen 3:22 -- that each SON by his/her individual EXPERIENCE, would COMPLETLY KNOW the HEART of
YHVH, each of which shouted for the JOY of the REVELATION of HIS unspoken
WORD at the Creation of this realm --
Job 38:7That is what the REVELATION of
JESUS CHRIST IS... the
WORD of God contains the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of God as it is outwardly EXPRESSED...
Just as we who are made in His IMAGE, find that our thoughts remain SILENT and UNKNOWN, until they are EXPRESSED VERBALLY...
We are made in His IMAGE, which is the
WORD --
Heb 1:3 -- and when the
WORD is EXPRESSED, it contains the Knowledge silently KNOWN in the Heart of
YHVH.
We (as His Children) as we are EACH EXPRESSED into this life BY the
WORD --
Col 1:16 -- are the LIVING "portion" termed as EVIL within the knowledge of GOD... which He is EXPRESSING in OUTWARD terms... for we are MADE by the
WORD --
John 1:3 -- which contains BOTH the Knowledge OF EVIL in PERFECTION, as well as the Knowledge of GOOD in PERFECTION.
CHRIST (the light/good --
John 1:8) walked amongst the DARKNESS/evil --
John 1:5 -- (men)...
The vision of JOY has already been witnessed by you as outlined in
blue in your quote above...
GOD is no respecter of persons...
CHRIST (which is noted to be the HEAD of the BODY) Stated that HE could do NOTHING of Himself... but as the Father spoke,
CHRIST repeated what He HEARD and therefore DID (acted) as He HEARD of the Father --
John 5:19 & 30 --
ALL His actions were according to that which was Prophesied (FOREKNOWN) by
YHVH... and accordingly He did and said as was
WRITTEN of Him, all of it GOOD, all of it OBEDIENT. Those who are ORDAINED to --
Eph 2:10 -- submit to the COMMANDS of the
WORD, and are in obedience of it... and thereby IN it =
IN CHRIST =
GOOD ...not doing THEIR "will" (which is of the FLESH/Darkness), rather are seen as PROPHESIED of them --
Isaiah 19:5 -- laying themselves down in submission IN the SPIRIT to
YHVH.
GOD is no respecter of persons... the actions of MEN (which are noted to be the
BODY of
CHRIST) are
WRITTEN in the
WORD --
Isaiah 46:10-11 -- and so they too do accordingly... only their actions are EVIL and they also do according to that which was DECLARED (prophesied) of them as well, BY that
WORD... all of it EVIL, all of it DISOBEDIENT.
Those who do NOT submit to the
WORD are in disobedience of it... and NOT IN it = NOT
IN CHRIST =
EVIL ...and are seen remaining IN the FLESH which is NOT in submission to
YHVHALL the SONS of GOD partake in the
REVELATION of the
WORD which is the EXPRESSION of GOD's Knowledge which a
LIVING knowledge and is of BOTH GOOD
and EVIL.
GOD does not "sit by and condone"... it is HIS intention that EVIL be KNOWN [MEN -- ALL have SINNED --
Rom 3:23 -- and are CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF --
Rom 11:32] by the Revelation of the
WORD as well as GOOD [
CHRIST -- UNSINFUL --
Heb 4:15]...
In TIME by its CONCLUSION in which ALL RESURRECTION and JUDGMENT shall have occured, ...BOTH aspects are therein made known within the
COMPLETE [perfect] outward EXPRESSION of the KNOWLEDGE of
YHVH GOD...
:Peace:
...willieH :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 07, 2010, 09:58:25 PM
Quote from: lomarah on January 07, 2010, 09:18:46 PM
Hey Paul,
Could you explain this further, i'm not quite sure what you mean: Quoteit is because we are such a part of God that we are caught in the turbulence of his expansion.
Also I wasn't quite sure whether you think God could have perfected us without all this suffering or if you think all this suffering is the only way to perfection?
Thanks!
I will try, Some may object that I am trying to limit God, but it is indeed the limits we "may" "perceive" that are not actually limits but laws that are of a perfect nature.
I do not believe God could perfect us to be one with him without us experiencing this life and what each of individually experience no matter how bad it is.
It is not about God being limited, it is about God knowing the nature of all things including himself.
God spoke us into existence "knowing" we "will" be one with him (because his word does not return VOID) and we are simply in the cocoon of process to emerge as majestic as him being one. This cocoon shields us from seeing what we will be and our struggle is the only way we can emerge as the beautiful butterfly. He grieves with us because in order to give us that gift, we MUST go through what we go through, He knows our pain. Our imaginations can believe that God is NOT ALL powerful based upon that perfect assurance of the unchangable God.
I will try to say something different if that is not helpful.
Thanks Paul, that cleared it up perfectly. :dsunny: I totally agree with you and love that you added the part about God grieving with us in our pain. :cloud9:
Hi,
Personally, I beleive that there will be a state of perfection and
sinlessness of the creature,that will hold in contempt all sin
and disobediance that was exhibited before the creature was
perfected.
Ibeleive that the butterfly with it's wings will have contempt
of the lowly worm stage when it crawled on it's belly. I beleive
the new creature that drinks of nectar and eats ambrosia will
have nothing but contempt for the lowly mean nature previously
it's lot. But will eternally Praise God for the metamorphosis
granted unto it