What if you guys are all wrong about universal salvation?

[eaglesway]

moon7171: 4. What if you end up in hell because you unknowingly led people astray? No one can end up in hell because there is no such place.

Amen to that!

www.hellisamyth.com

[shawn]

How loud will ring the praises of our awesome and loving God on that day when all confess Him and kneel to him in sheer love, gratitude and devotion.  Amen, Maranatha.

There's many very good things I could "quote" from this thread, but this one reaLLy stands out!! :gsmile: :gthumbsup:

I feel like "judgment day" before concluded will be surprise! `awareness of atonement day`!! How joyful!

That is a breath taking thought.

[eaglesway]

MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal(olam) punishment, but the righteous to eternal(olam) life."


Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Mt 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Breathtaking perhaps, but I personally think it will be a long day for some, a short day for others. :o)

[jbertonbounds]

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

If God says he will repay us for our deeds, whether good or evil, why do the ET's think he will torture "sinners" forever.  Just one more argument against ET.  If God is a just God, and the scripture tells us he is, then his repayment for evil will be just.  Eternal torment would not be repayment - just torture.  Why do they think it would take eternity in literal fire to pay for a mere lifetime of sins?  They don't really believe God is a just God!  They don't really believe hell would be so bad.

Also, this scripture says the Lord will judge HIS people.  If he were to toss them into some hell forever, then they would not really be his people.  He would have thrown them away like garbage, out of sight/out of mind, and they would no longer belong to him. 

Just saying. :winkgrin:

[Graph1159]

I can definitely understand the questions that the original poster has raised. I have run into problems with viewing UR as another "theological club," along with "Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." Obviously, any doctrinal sect can be wrong because sects are formed by humans and humans are fallible. Since the time that I initially came to understand the salvation of all, there have been multiple times in which I ran into serious doubt about it.
But, every time I encounter this doubt, I resolve it by setting aside all of the theological arguments that I have heard (from both UR and ET) and meditating on the UR Scriptures of the Bible. The thing with these Scriptures is that they convey the same ideas in all of the literal Bible translations. Regardless of what literal translation I'm looking at, when I focus my attention on these passages, what I see is all humanity united with God. The passages speaking of future punishment, on the other hand, vary depending on what translation you've got.  Thus, I do not see eternal damnation in the Scriptures. What I "see" in the Bible, across all translations, is all humanity ultimately restored to God. I strive to constantly fight the notion that I am choosing to believe in UR instead of something else. I have to fight the inclination to "classify myself" as a UR believer as opposed to another type of believer. I have not necessarily taken a step in faith and decided to place my trust in the doctrine. It's just that when I read the Bible, UR is what I see, and I trust that the Bible is true.
It may be that one day, I will pick up my Bible, turn to the UR passages, and fail to see universal salvation. I am willing to let this happen if it should. But so far, each time I return to these passages, I end up seeing UR once again.
Samuel

[jabcat]

I can definitely understand the questions that the original poster has raised. I have run into problems with viewing UR as another "theological club," along with "Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." Obviously, any doctrinal sect can be wrong because sects are formed by humans and humans are fallible. Since the time that I initially came to understand the salvation of all, there have been multiple times in which I ran into serious doubt about it.
But, every time I encounter this doubt, I resolve it by setting aside all of the theological arguments that I have heard (from both UR and ET) and meditating on the UR Scriptures of the Bible. The thing with these Scriptures is that they convey the same ideas in all of the literal Bible translations. Regardless of what literal translation I'm looking at, when I focus my attention on these passages, what I see is all humanity united with God. The passages speaking of future punishment, on the other hand, vary depending on what translation you've got.  Thus, I do not see eternal damnation in the Scriptures. What I "see" in the Bible, across all translations, is all humanity ultimately restored to God. I strive to constantly fight the notion that I am choosing to believe in UR instead of something else. I have to fight the inclination to "classify myself" as a UR believer as opposed to another type of believer. I have not necessarily taken a step in faith and decided to place my trust in the doctrine. It's just that when I read the Bible, UR is what I see, and I trust that the Bible is true.
It may be that one day, I will pick up my Bible, turn to the UR passages, and fail to see universal salvation. I am willing to let this happen if it should. But so far, each time I return to these passages, I end up seeing UR once again.
Samuel

Like :)

[jbertonbounds]

I can definitely understand the questions that the original poster has raised. I have run into problems with viewing UR as another "theological club," along with "Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." Obviously, any doctrinal sect can be wrong because sects are formed by humans and humans are fallible. Since the time that I initially came to understand the salvation of all, there have been multiple times in which I ran into serious doubt about it.
But, every time I encounter this doubt, I resolve it by setting aside all of the theological arguments that I have heard (from both UR and ET) and meditating on the UR Scriptures of the Bible. The thing with these Scriptures is that they convey the same ideas in all of the literal Bible translations. Regardless of what literal translation I'm looking at, when I focus my attention on these passages, what I see is all humanity united with God. The passages speaking of future punishment, on the other hand, vary depending on what translation you've got.  Thus, I do not see eternal damnation in the Scriptures. What I "see" in the Bible, across all translations, is all humanity ultimately restored to God. I strive to constantly fight the notion that I am choosing to believe in UR instead of something else. I have to fight the inclination to "classify myself" as a UR believer as opposed to another type of believer. I have not necessarily taken a step in faith and decided to place my trust in the doctrine. It's just that when I read the Bible, UR is what I see, and I trust that the Bible is true.
It may be that one day, I will pick up my Bible, turn to the UR passages, and fail to see universal salvation. I am willing to let this happen if it should. But so far, each time I return to these passages, I end up seeing UR once again.
Samuel

The more I study UR, the more I "see" it.  We see it because God is revealing it to us.  He has removed the vail from our eyes and shown us this truth.  He has chosen us to reveal it to us for a reason.  That is to share it with others.  Know that it will cost you, but that it is worth it!  I have already paid a price for the stand I take for UR.  I have lost my church home (Baptist - ET), some friends, and my good reputation with a number of people, but as the scripture says, "everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life." Mat 19:29 [ESV]  This is a totally awesome promise and it is SO worth it!  Don't worry!  Trust the Lord - he knows what he is doing, and he will bless you beyond your imagination!   :winkgrin:   :thumbsup: :dsunny:

[Lazarus Short]

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

If God says he will repay us for our deeds, whether good or evil, why do the ET's think he will torture "sinners" forever.  Just one more argument against ET.  If God is a just God, and the scripture tells us he is, then his repayment for evil will be just.  Eternal torment would not be repayment - just torture.  Why do they think it would take eternity in literal fire to pay for a mere lifetime of sins?  They don't really believe God is a just God!  They don't really believe hell would be so bad.

Also, this scripture says the Lord will judge HIS people.  If he were to toss them into some hell forever, then they would not really be his people.  He would have thrown them away like garbage, out of sight/out of mind, and they would no longer belong to him. 

Just saying. :winkgrin:

In fact, in God's Law, given to Moses, you had to pay back four times or ten times for your wrongdoing, no more than that for stealing.  No punishment worse than death was prescribed.  This Law is spiritual reality transcribed for a carnal world, and God follows His Own Law, for it is His Own Character.

[eaglesway]

The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.

No correction of God is meted out for arbitrary legalistic violations of the superficial aspects of His law. It is for the reformation of the character so that freedom becomes love and love becomes life expressed in righteousness, peace and joy, abounding in goodness and harmony. The superficial aspects of His law are "shadowy images" or "tutors" that lead us to the real light- the love life of Jesus Christ, shared like bread and wine at a table of joyous fellowship.

[jbertonbounds]

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

If God says he will repay us for our deeds, whether good or evil, why do the ET's think he will torture "sinners" forever.  Just one more argument against ET.  If God is a just God, and the scripture tells us he is, then his repayment for evil will be just.  Eternal torment would not be repayment - just torture.  Why do they think it would take eternity in literal fire to pay for a mere lifetime of sins?  They don't really believe God is a just God!  They don't really believe hell would be so bad.

Also, this scripture says the Lord will judge HIS people.  If he were to toss them into some hell forever, then they would not really be his people.  He would have thrown them away like garbage, out of sight/out of mind, and they would no longer belong to him. 

Just saying. :winkgrin:

In fact, in God's Law, given to Moses, you had to pay back four times or ten times for your wrongdoing, no more than that for stealing.  No punishment worse than death was prescribed.  This Law is spiritual reality transcribed for a carnal world, and God follows His Own Law, for it is His Own Character.

And what about the jubilee.  How might that play into this whole scheme?

[jbertonbounds]

The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.

No correction of God is meted out for arbitrary legalistic violations of the superficial aspects of His law. It is for the reformation of the character so that freedom becomes love and love becomes life expressed in righteousness, peace and joy, abounding in goodness and harmony. The superficial aspects of His law are "shadowy images" or "tutors" that lead us to the real light- the love life of Jesus Christ, shared like bread and wine at a table of joyous fellowship.

Beautiful and awesome, dude! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Thanks Jb,

But I would edit myself by adding this one thing-

The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, and then remakes it a pleasing vessel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.

:o) Latah bro

[jbertonbounds]

More and more I am aware at how distorted the WHOLE gospel is when it is tainted with ET.  It is so much more than simply NOT believing in hell.  It distorts every aspect of Gods plan for his creation and humanity.  It distorts the meaning of the scriptures from cover to cover.  I feel more and more like writing a book. :banana:

[jbertonbounds]

Yesterday, I attended a church that was very new and strange to me, after having been baptist all my life.  Unitarian Universalists.  I new they believed in respecting all faiths and walks of life, but I had no idea just how tolerant they are to the beliefs and lifestyles of others.  This seemed bad at first, because you could walk in there and announce that you were a gay Satan worshiper and they would congratulate you on your lifestyle and beliefs.  However, I am no longer sure if they are any worse off than all those ET denominations who beat people down with their tainted gospel of fear.  :flamebreath: :eek: I think I need to mull over this one for a while. :Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

Unitarian Universalist churches have a wide range of beliefs because they are very autonomous. Their are some Christ centered ones, but not many.

To me the issue is- does Jesus live and walk among them in a discernible way/

This determines whether a group is a "gathering of believers" -the ecclesia.

There are many religious clubs, with a few genuine believers stuck like flies in the web- they are, imo, none better off than the others- just different flavors of lukewarm water cast off from the purposes of God.

There hav been times where God has had me stay in such a place for awhile for some purpose, perhaps to teach me something or to lead me to a person He wanted to reach- but these days He has led me to be bold in proclaimimg the vctorious gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah- so don nobody much truck with that to let me hang aroud. But I would go bac in if HE led me to.....but I hope He does not :o)

[jbertonbounds]

Unitarian Universalist churches have a wide range of beliefs because they are very autonomous. Their are some Christ centered ones, but not many.

To me the issue is- does Jesus live and walk among them in a discernible way/

This determines whether a group is a "gathering of believers" -the ecclesia.

There are many religious clubs, with a few genuine believers stuck like flies in the web- they are, imo, none better off than the others- just different flavors of lukewarm water cast off from the purposes of God.

There hav been times where God has had me stay in such a place for awhile for some purpose, perhaps to teach me something or to lead me to a person He wanted to reach- but these days He has led me to be bold in proclaimimg the vctorious gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus the Messiah- so don nobody much truck with that to let me hang aroud. But I would go bac in if HE led me to.....but I hope He does not :o)

I am waiting to see if he leads me back.  Right now, I don't know.  As for religious clubs, that describes the baptist church I just left.  There was a major shift from traditional to contemporary worship style during the last 18 months or so.  So I thought everything would get better, as many of the older "club members" left.  Not so.  Just another set of club members with a different set of preferences.  At first it seemed like God was moving in that church, and maybe so.  It looked like some fervent worship was going on there, and I believe tis true.  I really don't know what to think about it all.  But I planted seeds there.  If God is there, he will nurture them and they will grow.  If God is not there, then the club will die a slow painful death.  I say painful, because that is what that church club brought me.  Much pain.  I keep telling myself that the pain will soon end, but...  I should be thankful that God gave me an opportunity to suffer with the Christ.  And I am thankful.  Still, the pain...

[Jock]

I've been in many churches, both in the US and the UK and what I have noted is that there seems to be a trend towards the Pentecostal/Charismatic way of worship and doctrine. A universal church, now that would be interesting! Perhaps the fact that you are there for now, is no accident.

Just a thought

Jock

Personally, I can't handle any of them.  :Chinscratch:

[Jock]

jbertonbounds

That church almost sounds like a bunch of Quakers!

Jock

[marie glen]

More and more I am aware at how distorted the WHOLE gospel is when it is tainted with ET.  It is so much more than simply NOT believing in hell.  It distorts every aspect of Gods plan for his creation and humanity.  It distorts the meaning of the scriptures from cover to cover.  I feel more and more like writing a book. :banana:

Amen, and includes too which I'm sure you noticed, is behavior and attitude, especially attitude (sometimes even behavior) - for some, I should say..

[marie glen]

Thanks Jb,

But I would edit myself by adding this one thing-

The whole question of "kolassis" and "apolumi"- punishment/correction and lostness/destruction is a difficult one- until we consider the parable of the potter, who crushes the flawed vessel upon the wheel, and then remakes it a pleasing vessel, before he "fires" it in the kiln for its ultimate purpose/destiny.

:o) Latah bro

Amen.. more and more I think the whole human story is typified in the story of Israel. Sheep gone astray, suffer the outgrowth (consequences of wandering away from God,Life,Perfection, thus becoming and entering the opposite of life). Israel being the story in microcosm, then returns and,or will return. "All nations will remember, all families return".

All things, even now, are perfect.. being the lesson, the story God is teaching,showing all :)

[jbertonbounds]

Well to make things even more interesting this last week, WESTBORO BAPTIST :eek: OF TOPEKA, KANSAS came to town.  They came to make their point that the tornado that devastated our town (Tuscaloosa, Alabama) a couple of years ago was God's judgement on us. :sigh:  (I wonder if they have confirmation on that?  :laugh:)

:Pray: Dear Lord Jesus, forgive them, for they know not what they do. :Pray:

[Lazarus Short]

I grew up in the Kansas City area, and made it my business to understand the WBC, as Topeka is near by.  It all began with Fred Phelps, a Kansas lawyer, who was so irascible and unfair in the courtroom, that he was disbarred.  His unforgiving hatefulness contaminates his church and family to this day.  They go out and protest in hopes of a tire being slashed, a windshield broken, or one of them assaulted.  Then they sue, and that is how they make a living.  It's a scam, and people are waking up to the best way to deal with them:  ignore, and offer them no services in your town.

[rosered]

Well to make things even more interesting this last week, WESTBORO BAPTIST :eek: OF TOPEKA, KANSAS came to town.  They came to make their point that the tornado that devastated our town (Tuscaloosa, Alabama) a couple of years ago was God's judgement on us. :sigh:  (I wonder if they have confirmation on that?  :laugh:)

:Pray: Dear Lord Jesus, forgive them, for they know not what they do. :Pray:

  Remember faith comes by hearing !  we believe what we are taught
 
many unskilled in the Word of God  struggle ,do you not remember being a Southren Baptist hearing the hell fire messages always added to the  sermons   
I sure do  , was a child and attending those  services   , makes me sad for those ''trapped in that mindset !''
  we are to  keep praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ whom   believe in Jesus  but have  the deception  of eternal torment  preached to them and teach men so  , its a sad  thing  and  glad the Lord has delivered  us out of that mindset

I know people perish every day  in some way or the other   proving just how temporary    this  world and life is  and has been thought out the ages       
Jesus puts this all in perspective    for us  in Luke 13   were any worse sinners ?   no  we are all sinners saved by GRACE !   and we are not to abuse this grace bestowed on us  right ?
  there is a great work  yet to be done and  its   relieving  those still in that fear of torment    by   faith and  those  hearing  what the Spirit is saying   bearing fruit unto His righteousness and Glory  , just how much  God loves the world and gave Himself for it   and also  did not come to destroy mens lives but  give them here and now a more abundant life ..

Call to Repent  is to change  your  mind and  mindsets

13 Now on the same occasion there were some present who reported to Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mixed with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate?

3 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.


4 Or do you suppose that those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them were worse culprits than all the men who live in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.


7 And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'


8 And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;

9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'
  the Lord is seeking Spiritual fruit  from His Vines and branches   namely us .

[jbertonbounds]

I grew up in the Kansas City area, and made it my business to understand the WBC, as Topeka is near by.  It all began with Fred Phelps, a Kansas lawyer, who was so irascible and unfair in the courtroom, that he was disbarred.  His unforgiving hatefulness contaminates his church and family to this day.  They go out and protest in hopes of a tire being slashed, a windshield broken, or one of them assaulted.  Then they sue, and that is how they make a living.  It's a scam, and people are waking up to the best way to deal with them:  ignore, and offer them no services in your town.

Wow.  That's enlightening.  Had no idea it was just a scam.  I thought it was a fanatic preacher misleading his congregation.  That explains a lot.  Either way, it is a group of people who are mislead into evil deeds and hurting others. 

[rosered]

I grew up in the Kansas City area, and made it my business to understand the WBC, as Topeka is near by.  It all began with Fred Phelps, a Kansas lawyer, who was so irascible and unfair in the courtroom, that he was disbarred.  His unforgiving hatefulness contaminates his church and family to this day.  They go out and protest in hopes of a tire being slashed, a windshield broken, or one of them assaulted.  Then they sue, and that is how they make a living.  It's a scam, and people are waking up to the best way to deal with them:  ignore, and offer them no services in your town.

  Hi Laz , aka Dennis
   sounds like the unporofitable servant whom  beats the other  servants and  eats and drinks with the drunkards   , sleeping  though their calling and  doing much more harm than good  to the Gospel of Jesus Christ  :sigh: