Tentmaker Forum

What do universalists make of this testimony? Does it serve as a witness or no?

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdugdTIS74&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CRRqH-Fmk&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_JZo0Pbhk&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsKp9AVlC0&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKEpuOfBRE&feature=related
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOtx0cJlhU&feature=related
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxKHoR9mZg&feature=related
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6XBzloxY&feature=related

I'm on something approximating dial-up until I can get more power around the end of the month, so an 8 part video presentation would be a nightmare for me right now, but if your post approximates asking us if we'll take personal testimonies over what we believe the Scriptures to teach, then of course not.  Let God be true and every man a liar.  The Bible's first priority and final authority.

The following is a response to a friend who asked me a question about Bill's story:

Anthony,

You asked me if I'd read all 150 scripture that Bill Wiese gave to prove his 'vision' was from God.

First Bill refers to Paul's catching up to prove his own 'catching down' saying:

(quote) "Some Christians have said, "Oh a Christian can't leave his body." But that's not true, In 2 Corinthians 12:2, when Paul was caught up into the third heaven, He said, "whether in the body, or out of the body I do not know." (end quote)

Okay, fine.

But then he refers to Jonah:

(quote)"And In Jonah 2:6 it says, "the earth with her bars was about me forever, yet thou has brought up my life from corruption." So at least there was somebody in the Bible that experienced Hell, Jonah". (end quote)

Of course you and I know that the KJV translates "Sheol" as ' the grave', 'the pit' and 'hell'.

" I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,
And He answered me.
" Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.

Was not Jonah speaking metaphorically here? ie: " I was as good as dead"?
Later Bill claims "The earth with her bars" confirms the literal bars on his prison cell in 'hell'.

Then Bill quotes Job 17:16 to further confirm his assigned prison cell in 'hell' had literal bars. Again, it's clear to me that Job was speaking of the grave in a generic sense:

NRS: Will it go down to the bars of Sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?"

NIV "Will it go down to the gates of death? Will we descend together into the dust?"

amp"[My hope] shall go down to the bars of Sheol (the unseen state) when once there is rest in the dust. "

Bill is cherry picking to try and give his vision some credibility.

To prove 'cells' or 'rooms' he quotes Prov. 7: 26

"For she has cast down many wounded,
And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell (Sheol - the grave)
Descending to the chambers of death".

Bill just plays on people's (and his own) ignorance concerning the generic state of death by using the KJV rendering of 'Sheol - the grave - the unseen' as the English word 'hell'.

He goes on to state how strong the demons were and how weak he was:

(Quote) "The one picked me up, and the other one, with his razor-sharp claws; he just shredded my flesh right off. He just tore it off, and had absolutely no care what so ever for this body that God so wonderfully made. It had a hatred that was so intense against me. I wondered, "Why am I alive, why am I living through this? I don't understand why am I not dead." My flesh just hung there in ribbons. And there was no blood, just flesh hanging, because life is in the blood, and there is no life in Hell. And there is no water in Hell.

In Isaiah 14:9-10 it says

Hell (the grave) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?

Psalms 88:4

I am counted with those who go down to the pit; I am like a man who has no strength, (end Quote)

Of course dead men no longer have strength. Sheeeesh Bill!

Then he talks about the cussing and profanities in 'hell'

(Quote) The profanities, that they were cursing at God is mentioned in Ezekiel 22-26 "I am profaned among them"

Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. (end quote)

Clearly this passage has NOTHING to do with cussing or what we call profanity.

Then he explains the scriptural-ness of the demons ripping his flesh off by quoting Micah 3:2

" 1 Hear now, O heads of Jacob,
And you rulers of the house of Israel:
Is it not for you to know justice?
2 You who hate good and love evil;
Who strip the skin from My people,[a]
And the flesh from their bones;
3 Who also eat the flesh of My people,
Flay their skin from them,
Break their bones,
And chop them in pieces
Like meat for the pot,
Like flesh in the caldron."

This is obvious metaphorical speech of how the leaders were taking advantage of the masses at that time (same as today!)

Then he talks about the humiliation you endure in the afterlife:

(quote) There are scriptures about the humiliation you have to endure. "This thing is going to run my life, I can't stop it!" In Isaiah 5:14-15

Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge; Their honorable men are famished, And their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers. So man will be brought low and mankind humbled, the eyes of the arrogant humbled.

Ezekiel 32:24

There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

On and on it goes. That was a horrible thing, to have your life run by these creatures, that have no mercy for you whatsoever.
(end quote)

Again, he uses all this to claim demonic 'creatures' are ruling in 'hell'.

Then he claims Psalms written by David to confirm the darkness in 'hell'

(quote) "I looked one direction, all black, and all I heard was screams, billions of people screaming in this place. I knew there were billions, and it was so loud. If you have ever heard someone scream before, it is so annoying. Well if you hear billions of people screaming, you can't imagine how it affects your mind. You just can't stand it. You hold your ears because it is so loud and penetrating. You can't get away from the screams.

And the fear that overcomes you is unbelievable. Everything is dominated by fear. There is no presence of God in this place, so you have to endure the fear and the torment and the blackness. You can't see anything. You can't even see what is coming up against you.

Scripture talks about this darkness in Psalms 88:6 "You have laid me in the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths". (end quote)

Again, David is speaking about his trials here and totally contradicts Bill's application in another Psalm "If I make my bed in Sheol, YOU (God) are there"

Then he talks about how desolate it is:

(Quote) "I was now outside the cell and I looked this direction and as I looked this way I could see there was flames of fire, about 10 miles away from me. I knew it was 10 miles. And a pit of fire, about 3 miles across, had flames that lit up the skyline enough to see the landscape of Hell just a little bit.

The darkness was so heavy; it just eats up any light. But there was enough to just see some of the skyline. It was all brown and desolate! I mean absolutely not one green leaf, not anything of life of any kind, just stone, dirt and black sky, and smog in the skylight. The flames were really high, so I could see it. There was a scripture in Deuteronomy 29:23

The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.

There is no life whatsoever in Hell. It is so strange to be in a world where there is no life. Here we enjoy trees and fresh air, but there it is absolutely all dead. (end quote)

In context we see this passage has absolutely nothing to do with the afterlife:

Deuteronomy 29:20-25 (New King James Version)

20 "The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the LORD would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law, 22 so that the coming generation of your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, would say, when they see the plagues of that land and the sicknesses which the LORD has laid on it:
23 'The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.' 24 All nations would say, 'Why has the LORD done so to this land? What does the heat of this great anger mean?' 25 Then people would say: 'Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt;

Bill speaks of heat:

(quote) The heat was so intense, you can even describe it. It says in Deuteronomy 32:24

They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. (end quote)

About water he says

(quote) Regarding the water, in Zechariah 9:11,

...I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Absolutely no water in Hell. (end quote)

Concerning hopelessness he says

(quote) This is the worse thing about Hell, that there was absolutely no hope of ever getting out. I understood that. I grasped eternity. I could understand eternity. Here on earth, we can't quite, can't get a hold of it. But there I understood it. I knew I would be there forever and ever, and had no hope of getting out. Even people in concentration camps had a hope of getting out, or dying at least, to get out of it. But we've never experienced a totally hopeless situation. In Isaiah 38:18 it says,

"Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth." (end quote)

Again Anthony, read the context.

15 " What shall I say?
He has both spoken to me,
And He Himself has done it.
I shall walk carefully all my years
In the bitterness of my soul.
16 O Lord, by these things men live;
And in all these things is the life of my spirit;
So You will restore me and make me live.
17 Indeed it was for my own peace
That I had great bitterness;
But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption,
For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,
As I do this day;
The father shall make known Your truth to the children.
20 " The LORD was ready to save me;
Therefore we will sing my songs with stringed instruments
All the days of our life, in the house of the LORD."

This passage is simply making the case for remaining alive to praise God, as there is no work or thought or knowledge in the grave (Sheol) where man goes.

Bill just twists every scripture to fit his unscriptural description of the afterlife.

So, you ask - did I read all 150 scriptures he gave? NO! The few I read were enough to see what this 'experience' was all about.

Ancient demonic pagan underworld mythology.

blessings,
- Byron

Bill Wiese bases his vision on Old Testament scriptures. Oh, come on, Artic, grow up. You perfectly know that the doctrine of hell is not an OT doctrine. Jewish people perfectly know this and they know that everlasting torment is not in their scriptures.

I've shared this before, but it's worth repeating - It was Bill W.'s testimony which (ironically) led me out of the darkness and helped me to discover UR. I didn't read the whole book, but I listened to and read his testimony and it scared the hell out of me - literally. For the first time, I feared that I was on my way to hell. Being an evangelical for 20 years, I had never given hell much thought, but this got my attention. To make matters worse, I had begun attending an AG church, which pushes hell much more than the more liberal, evangelical denominations which I been aquianted with. I was so terrified, I couldn't sleep well for several weeks - I had visions of hell - including visions of myself in hell. I prayed, I cried, I read the Bible to see how I could avoid hell - but nothing brought me any peace or resolution. I searched the web, I did searches on hell, salvation, heaven, etc. This did nothing but confused me more - who knew there were so many different ideas on how to get saved? What if I picked the wrong one!! :omg: Eventually, I stumbled upon L Ray Smith's website and read it with great interest. I resisted it a first, but now I understand - "Perfect love cast out all fear"

If you want to read my testimony, click on the globe and go to my first article "Where the Hell is Hell?"

Quote from: B_T on August 18, 2008, 10:36:19 AM
Bill Wiese bases his vision on Old Testament scriptures. Oh, come on, Artic, grow up. You perfectly know that the doctrine of hell is not an OT doctrine. Jewish people perfectly know this and they know that everlasting torment is not in their scriptures.

I think his vision is, as is, either we take it or leave it. Either he is telling the truth or a lie. How he tries to show how his vision lines up with scripture is another matter that we all must examine as well.

True AM. How can we ever prove what he saw.
I've read his book and indeed it's the classic fire story. But it contradicts with another hell book that didn't have fire at all. To summarize that book: "Every sinner lived in some sort of cube. From the inside it looked big and like the world they lived in. One sinner was a ruthless bussinessman that ruined peoples life to reach his goals. In that cube he relived his life over and over but now being the one that got sacked."
True or not true? Don't ask me. But it sure is more of a learning exprience than burning.

quote firstborn888

QuoteAncient demonic pagan underworld mythology.

Every testimony of people whom have seen demons and devils and such speak of repulsive, hateful beings whom often stink and are "out of this world" scary and ugly and grotesque and fearful and evil. How is it that these testimonies are widely accepted, often even by universalists, and yet the reality, that even if you were placed in a beautiful place with these beings without protection and clearly seeing them it would not be pleasant, even if it were only for a couple of years.

Think of a cruise ship full of gangbangers, murderers, rapists, kidnappers, would that be a pleasant cruise? Of course not. While there are demons and such with us here on earth, thankfully most of us can't see them and even many unbelievers seem to have some protection from the hate that they harbor towards us, but what happens when one realizes they have been placed, by God, in the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, cause they, along with them, continues in rebellion against God until the gate was shut?

Even if hell was a beautiful place, the mere presence of these beings would make it hell in my opinion. And even if the place Bill talks about was only for a couple of days worth of punishment it seems unbearable in my opinion, but his testimony is that it is not for a couple of days but for eternity.

Its his testimony, its his experience, he says he was told to share it, its kind of a take it or leave it sort of thing. If you leave it cause he didn't line it up with the scriputures well enough then thats your decision.

Every description of demons that I have heard is horrible, does that make them pagan or lies? I don't think so, but, if we haven't seen one I guess we only have testimonies. Witnesses.

Either his vision was given from God or it wasn't, thats really the only question.

I do understand what he was talking about a bit when he was talking about thick darkness, where the sense of an evil presence is with you, I felt this while in my bed months ago, a very fearful feeling came over me and then my fiancee screamed and clinged to me telling me she saw "a man". Hey, there is a witness for you, from me personally, you can't verify it, but nonetheless its the truth, and the presence I felt is not something that I would want to have around, especially without any protection, it was very fearful and could be truly "felt", it wasn't happy, or good, something was seriously wrong there, I wouldn't want to be stuck in the final resting places of such spirits. There is another witness in the book of Job, what he describes is exactly what I felt, I mean exactly, except that I did not see it, my fiancee did though, I literally felt it when that spirit entered the room, now I don't know exactly what this spirit was, but something was seriously wrong with it.

Job 4:13  In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,
14  Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.
15  Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 19, 2008, 08:40:04 AM
Every testimony of people whom have seen demons and devils and such speak of repulsive, hateful beings whom often stink and are "out of this world" scary and ugly and grotesque and fearful and evil. How is it that these testimonies are widely accepted, often even by universalists, and yet the reality, that even if you were placed in a beautiful place with these beings without protection and clearly seeing them it would not be pleasant, even if it were only for a couple of years.

I think that half of those testemonies are fakes. Just a way to sell books. Just read other books. Give it your own twist and another NDE book is born.
For the real NDEs I think they could very well be parables.

QuoteWhile there are demons and such with us here on earth, thankfully most of us can't see them and even many unbelievers seem to have some protection from the hate that they harbor towards us, but what happens when one realizes they have been placed, by God, in the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, cause they, along with them, continues in rebellion against God until the gate was shut?

If 'hell' is about correction, unlearning the bad and learning the good why are there demons? How can something evil teach us how to be good?

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/bill_wiese.htm

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 19, 2008, 08:40:04 AM
quote firstborn888

QuoteAncient demonic pagan underworld mythology.

Every testimony of people whom have seen demons and devils and such speak of repulsive, hateful beings whom often stink and are "out of this world" scary and ugly and grotesque and fearful and evil. How is it that these testimonies are widely accepted, often even by universalists, and yet the reality, that even if you were placed in a beautiful place with these beings without protection and clearly seeing them it would not be pleasant, even if it were only for a couple of years.

I have faced and seen the powers of darkness, no argument there. 'They' operate through our minds. 

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 19, 2008, 08:40:04 AM
Either his vision was given from God or it wasn't, thats really the only question.

The vision was given from the same place yours or mine was: The darkened human mind. That's where the ancient Egyptians got their twisted afterlife ideas and the Greeks etc. It's all from the same gross darkness.

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 19, 2008, 08:40:04 AM
I do understand what he was talking about a bit when he was talking about thick darkness, where the sense of an evil presence is with you, I felt this while in my bed months ago, a very fearful feeling came over me and then my fiancee screamed and clinged to me telling me she saw "a man". Hey, there is a witness for you, from me personally, you can't verify it, but nonetheless its the truth, and the presence I felt is not something that I would want to have around, especially without any protection, it was very fearful and could be truly "felt", it wasn't happy, or good, something was seriously wrong there, I wouldn't want to be stuck in the final resting places of such spirits. 

The vision was not from God. God sometimes opens our eyes to see the thick darkness around us. I have sensed and evil presence etc. as well.  No one will be in a place where these mythical creatures have power over them. That happens here and now, not in the grave.

His testimony is another proof that even if there is a "hell" and you go there you don't stay there.  He says he went there; but notice, he also came out of it and back here.  I had a Christian friend living with a man she wasn't married to.  She dreamed that for fornication she died and went to hell for ever and that there was no hope.  She could never get out.  When she awoke she set her affairs in order and in two weeks moved out, severing the relationship.  She used that experience as proof hell was real and permanent when we were arguing over what the Bible really says about it.  I told her whatever the real things translated with the one word hell are, if any of it was as she described, the reality should only prove to do the same thing for anyone that goes there as the dream of it did for her, work a zeal for righteousness and true repentance.  As well, just as she got out, so will they.  Of course she had nothing for a response but to drop her jaw so her mouth hung open as she stared at me.

We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 21, 2008, 07:04:55 PM
We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

I'm sorry that is the case. I'm absolutely convinced that whole realm of darkness exists within the human heart/mind. The things which defile come from within not without and certainly not from a mythical 'hell'. 

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not not sneak up on Adam and Eve and pounce upon them as a giant demon. It's fruit was ingested.

Quote from: firstborn888 on August 22, 2008, 10:13:55 AM

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 21, 2008, 07:04:55 PM
We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

I'm sorry that is the case. I'm absolutely convinced that whole realm of darkness exists within the human heart/mind. The things which defile come from within not without and certainly not from a mythical 'hell'. 

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not not sneak up on Adam and Eve and pounce upon them as a giant demon. It's fruit was ingested.

I personally do not have a complete conclusion on this topic but I wanted to ask a question.
If it is only with the human heart and mind, rather than it being a broader spiritual spectrum, then how can our evil affect others and influence them to do the same evil as well? 

Yes, firstborn888, I do understand. However, we do disagree, I believe the fear and such that I felt coming from that spirit to be of, well, a spiritual source, not a mental one, my mind did not feel fear, nor have fearful thoughts, it was, a spiritual experience, a spirit of fear and also the feeling of an evil presence, a spiritual feeling, not a mental one, thats my witness that I am giving, just to be more clear. I know that your mind may be set on a different view on these things, but my witness must be presented accurately to those whom might hear it.

I am only stating this though, I don't want a debate on these things on this thread cause I have a pretty good idea where that is going to lead this thread. I know from experience that threads on the nature of demons and such seem to keep going and going and going and going..........

I should, however, take the time here to say, that I am not calling that spirit I experienced a demon, I actually don't know what it was. I have even been told there are wandering spirits of humans here, and that the fear we feel when in their presence is possible what "they" are feeling themselves. Don't know, just know there was something seriously "spiritually" wrong with that spirit.

Just a question, if God is Love . . . not the essence of love, but love as it's own substance.  If God is love, and he acts out of love, why then, would God revert to fear and intimidation to get you to enter into his love?

Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 07:35:26 PM
Just a question, if God is Love . . . not the essence of love, but love as it's own substance.  If God is love, and he acts out of love, why then, would God revert to fear and intimidation to get you to enter into his love?

Fear of something that is true, may not be a contradiction to God acting out of Love.

You lost me . . ."Being afraid of truth may not be a contradiction of God working out of love . . ."  Nope, still ain't gettin' it.

Are you trying to say that God will "use" fear to drive us "into" his love?  Out of Love he will expose fear? 

I can see where he's shown up and scared the snot out of people, but I can't say that it was his will they be afriad of him.  Those guys who were given talents. . .the guy that got one talent and buried it . . . his reasoning was he saw God as one who carried a heavy judgment . . .so for fear of his judgment on his own life, he buried what was given to him.

Look, I'm not saying it's not a great and powerful tool to get people to respond to an altar call.  All I'm saying is, I'm not so sure God is the one instigating the fear.  Why would he have us build our relationship with him in love, that's been based on fear?

To me it's like telling my wife how much I love her . . .but if I ever come home unexpectedly and she's not around, I'm going to be the hell out of her . . . what a wonderful relationship "that" would be . .not to mention the fact that I could very well get the crap kicked out of me in the same way. :mshock:

Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 08:54:19 PM
You lost me . . ."Being afraid of truth may not be a contradiction of God working out of love . . ."  Nope, still ain't gettin' it.

I wrote: "Fear of something that is true, may not be a contradiction to God acting out of Love." 

Do we not teach children to fear some things?   Does that not help build a love when they learn to trust that we have protected them?

Yes, we do, however I'm not seeing it in the same way as this beings that Greater is he that is in me . . . that is my protection.  In the natural, my protection over my child is limited.  And to be honest, if you think about your reasons "why" you want your child to be afraid . . .it's based more on my fear of whatever I'm trying to keep my child away from.

Be scared of fire . .why?  Because my fear is, you can be burned by it.
Be scared of water . .why?  Because my fear is you can drown in it.
Be afraid of hell . .  why?  Because my fear is, you'll end up in it . . .

God is not afraid of losing what's already been redeemed.  There is nothing stronger than the blood of the Lamb.  Not even my mind.

The purpose of man enforcing law is also based on fear.  That's why it's so hard for many to let go of what they've been taught . . .fear is a very powerful motivating tool.  But God doesn't need to use it because even though fear is strong . . .it doesn't hold a candle to the power of love.

My Mom was saved by this tactic . .it worked on her to.  I'm not saying it doesn't work . .I'm saying I'm not so sure God is the one initiating it.  I just think we can be more effective by way of love than fear.

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

I am not talking about witnessing or coercing someone into saying they accept Christ.  Some are falsely led to believe that salvation is this one time choice in our lives, when the bible starts in Genesis by saying God is "creating" us in his image.   He doesn't say, only those who choose will be such.

I was talking about the God of Love motivating us to understand something through fear.   This does not mean he will do that in everything.

Because that process is the process of salvation.   Religion sells fire insurance and ultimatly it teaches that if you so choose,  you need nothing more.    God brings all to the knowledge of truth and fear of something that causes us to turn to him is not wrong, it just may be the way.   Ultimatly God does it in a way that we learn to trust and obey.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 22, 2008, 03:54:16 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on August 22, 2008, 10:13:55 AM

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 21, 2008, 07:04:55 PM
We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

I'm sorry that is the case. I'm absolutely convinced that whole realm of darkness exists within the human heart/mind. The things which defile come from within not without and certainly not from a mythical 'hell'. 

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not not sneak up on Adam and Eve and pounce upon them as a giant demon. It's fruit was ingested.

I personally do not have a complete conclusion on this topic but I wanted to ask a question.
If it is only with the human heart and mind, rather than it being a broader spiritual spectrum, then how can our evil affect others and influence them to do the same evil as well? 

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Where is a spirit? Out in space? Down the street? Hiding under my bed? Where is the spiritual? Where is the kingdom?

The 'spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies' are ruling powers and authorities. Where do they rule?

Religion, myth and tradition paint fantastic tales of rebellions in heaven and graphic images of grotesque creatures. I believe these are all vain imaginations spawned in the spiritual darkness inherent in the earthly Adam's nature.

Even while reading graphic symbols of real tangible events humans tend to see the literal images and hold them in awe above their real meaning.     

I'm not really challenging the way anyone here is relating to the darkness except to say it is present darkness and when we move on from this realm all those things will be gone as well.

I agree, it's a matter of perspective and identity.  If I identfy myself as one who must still do battle, to me, I have not yet crossed over into the realm of rest . . .my identity is not in what I do .  .but in who I am.  I've mentioned this before . .somewhere . . .but I think there has been a changing of the guard, so to speak, concerning what day we are now entering into.  Everything is patterned after something deeper.

In the natural, we have seen the end of the 6th day . . .we are 6,000 years from Adam.  And we are on the verge of being a witness to the rising of the Sun on the Sabbath day.  The whole earth . .all creation is being exposed to this new day, just as all men were exposed to the previous 6 days . . .But on the 7th . . .the last day of the last days, it was just two days ago when Jesus stated that he would "rebuild" the temple religious men had torn down . . .this is that day.

What he is rebuilding is, a revelation of who he is to, and in every one of us.  I do believe we're going to see the religious churches of all denominations be greatly affected by this new day.  It's going to consume them and their works-based thinking.  Obama has been ranting about change . . .well, that's exactly what's coming, but the political side is only a tiny piece . . it's going to start at the church first. 

Those who find solitude in connecting with family members on forums such as this will come to realize that they are not alone, the whole church will be searching for the real truth.  What we know now, I truly believe we are the pioneers . .we are the first fruits of this new day.  This is why I encourage all who are a part of this . . .whitewings, you're included in this . . .I know you may think you're not . . .but you've been called my friend . .it's up to you as to whether you'll now be chosen.  At any rate, this is why I encourage everyone to take another look at how you apply the Word to you and others.  It's not a sword anymore . . .not for this new day.  It was a sword for those to who it was written to, and those who came after who were still born into the days of labor and warfare.

But this new day . .this is the thousand years we speak of . . .it's again, not a literal thousand year reign with Christ . . .many have been in this realm before us . . .but again, what was given to a few is now about to be poured out on all.  Just as the pattern of old when only prophets were caught up in the spirit . .until the spirit poured out on all flesh . . .so it is now, only a few across the globe have come into the reality of truth, by Grace all the way . . .but with this new day dawning, "all" the earth is about to be exposed to this glory of the Son.

Evil is not without, it is within.  Those who walk according to their own minds, are still walking with a veil over their understanding with things pertaining to Spirit and Truth.  They may see partly, but not the whole . . .but when that which is perfect comes to them . .as it's been coming to us . . .then that which was in part, will be made complete.  Our responsibility now . . .in my opinion . . .as fore-runners of the kingdom of rest . . . is to turn our swords in . . .let them be transformed in our understanding to plowshares.  Be farmers instead of fighters . . .let God give the increase.

The seeds we're to plant are things like . . .hell isn't what we thought . . .more people are going to end up in heaven than we were taught  . . . Sin isn't your biggest enemy . . .you need to lose your mind.  Adam and Eve are in you. . .as is the antichrist.  It's not about dividing God up into a trinity . . . or losing your salvation . . .or worrying about the Zodiac or demons, satan . . .and the devil . . . God meant what he said . . .they are a defeated foe . . .and all of them are between my ears. 

These are all simply seeds that God has shown that His Word may not literally state, but that's again, part of entering into the day of rest . . . I'm not required to memorize or quote a translated passage to anyone.  "I" am his epistle . . .the Word is in me . . . study to show yourself approved?  That's exactly what this does, in reading and identifying with the word I have found . . .I have been approved, not by my acts, but by the cross.  It's not about whether or not my mind acknowledges the work on the cross that makes the power go into effect . . . it's there, This world will be redeemed regardless of what man's mind believes about how it's done.

May the seed of life die "in" every one of us, so that Truth may take root and bring forth the fruit of life "out" of our flesh so all who we encounter may eat of our fruit and be transformed in the same way.

Quote from: Pleroo on August 22, 2008, 09:43:11 PM
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

I brought that up a few weeks back.
fear is a bad translation I was told.
Should be 'awe'
The way I read it as a Dutchy
"The utmost respect (of things around me) of the Lord is the beginning..."

Quote from: Nathan on August 23, 2008, 03:49:36 PM
In the natural, we have seen the end of the 6th day . . .we are 6,000 years from Adam.  And we are on the verge of being a witness to the rising of the Sun on the Sabbath day.  The whole earth . .all creation is being exposed to this new day, just as all men were exposed to the previous 6 days . . .But on the 7th . . .the last day of the last days, it was just two days ago when Jesus stated that he would "rebuild" the temple religious men had torn down . . .this is that day.

Are we near?
AFAIK the Hebrew calendar is at the year 5768.
And there are some speaking of '300 lost years' bringing it up to the year 6068.
So when have to wait quite a while or we are past the date??? :dontknow:

Here are some passages that can be the rule of thumb for anyone claiming to even get close to predicting end times type of stuff. 


Matthew 24:42-44

"Watch therefore: for ye know not  what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore, be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not  the Son of man cometh."




This puts an end to the "season" theory.  When will we know the season?

When it is upon us.

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noah  , so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

Mt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2008, 04:13:30 PM

Quote from: Pleroo on August 22, 2008, 09:43:11 PM
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

I brought that up a few weeks back.
fear is a bad translation I was told.
Should be 'awe'
The way I read it as a Dutchy
"The utmost respect (of things around me) of the Lord is the beginning..."

Hi White Wings :)

I'm from German stock and fear of authority definitely meant more than just respect.  An [un]healthy dose of abject terror was the order of the day.  :grin:

Well, I no longer think of the Father as the old man in the sky ready to use the belt on us at any given moment, and I was being a bit flippant when I posted that passage.  But Nathan was talking about God not instigating fear ... but He knows full well how we will react to Him in the "natural".  To us, He, in the holiness of His love and goodness, is terrifying.  When He first comes looking for us (like He did with Adam & Eve), He obviously knows that fear is going to play a major role, and I believe He uses that to start us on our journey to wisdom and full knowledge of Him. 

Yet another example of why we need to let the way we read Scripture be transformed as well . . .we tend to take things out of context . .as is done here.  Matthew 24 is not about "end time events" it's about the destruction of Israel's identity as a nation and as a religion.  The reason . .to me, the son of man didn't know the hour was because, if you follow the history . .it was the religious leaders that imploded on each other.  Jesus knew it was going to happen, he knew the plan of God . .but men played a role as to the actual time it would take place.

Noah means rest . . .as it was in the days of "rest" which is the same thing I was eluding to . . .we are entering into a day of rest . . .we have entered into it.  as far as the calendar off-sets . .I am aware that natural days in our calander don't match up the "Jewish" . .but who says God is going by the Jewish for one thing . .and another . . .even though the sun rises at 6:00 a.m.  . . . darkness is long gone before the sun itself is actually seen.  This is why I say we are in the beginning of it, we are pioneers . .the first fruits . . . it's also why I don't really think that the natural calendar days really matter as much.  

I sense this thing God is doing has already begun . . .and as most everything else he does, it's a process.  Whether it was 8 years ago, or 300 years from now, the light of this has already had an effect on the darkness of many and it will only continue.

It's not about the end of the world on this earth. . .it's about the dawning of the Sabbath in "my" earth.

Nathan ,  your reply is actually another example that scriptural context is not very well understood.


Context means nothing if you just make a summary of opinion without a solid scriptural point that puts those passages in that context.   You are however entitled to your opinion.   

The scriptural context is a rebuttle against the notion that a Christian can predict the return of Jesus Christ.   

Think what you want,  any Christian that believes they have the holy spirits annointing and can predict the return of Jesus is deceived. 


Your point about Noah meaning rest is refuted by the reference to the "flood" in the scripture that I quoted.   It is indeed talking about the coming of the flood being the same manner in which Jesus will return.  we will not know, cannot know, until it is upon us.

I will let the words of scripture be my opinion.

Quote from: Pleroo on August 23, 2008, 05:09:38 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2008, 04:13:30 PM

Quote from: Pleroo on August 22, 2008, 09:43:11 PM
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

I brought that up a few weeks back.
fear is a bad translation I was told.
Should be 'awe'
The way I read it as a Dutchy
"The utmost respect (of things around me) of the Lord is the beginning..."

Hi White Wings :)

I'm from German stock and fear of authority definitely meant more than just respect.  An [un]healthy dose of abject terror was the order of the day.  :grin:

Well, I no longer think of the Father as the old man in the sky ready to use the belt on us at any given moment, and I was being a bit flippant when I posted that passage.  But Nathan was talking about God not instigating fear ... but He knows full well how we will react to Him in the "natural".  To us, He, in the holiness of His love and goodness, is terrifying.  When He first comes looking for us (like He did with Adam & Eve), He obviously knows that fear is going to play a major role, and I believe He uses that to start us on our journey to wisdom and full knowledge of Him. 

Respect isn't always about authority.
I also have respect (=awe) for nature. You know a small forest lake, trees, birds and a frog on a floating leave.
That's also awe for me. Much more btw than all those descriptions of heaven about gold and gems.

The kind of repect your speak about is fear. So I guess there are two kind of repect. I hope the repect you have for your parents isn't (only) based on fear...?

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2008, 05:45:27 PM

Respect isn't always about authority.
I also have respect (=awe) for nature. You know a small forest lake, trees, birds and a frog on a floating leave.
That's also awe for me. Much more btw than all those descriptions of heaven about gold and gems.

Right, but doesn't even awe of nature include some fear?  I mean, put someone out in a boat on a lake in the middle of a thunderstorm or on a mountain in the middle of a snowstorm or at the beach during a hurricane and all those places that once engendered awe of their beauty and the mastery of their Maker, now engender fear of the power of nature and perhaps of it's Creator.

QuoteThe kind of repect your speak about is fear. So I guess there are two kind of repect. I hope the repect you have for your parents isn't (only) based on fear...?

:grin:  I would say that I respect my father inspite of fearing him, not because of it.  But, as a child, the two were definitely intertwined.

Quote from: Pleroo on August 23, 2008, 06:45:46 PM
Right, but doesn't even awe of nature include some fear?  I mean, put someone out in a boat on a lake in the middle of a thunderstorm or on a mountain in the middle of a snowstorm or at the beach during a hurricane and all those places that once engendered awe of their beauty and the mastery of their Maker, now engender fear of the power of nature and perhaps of it's Creator.

Good example. Let me carry on with it. I'm not such a sea lover but I'll use is because of its simplicity.
I like being in a small boat an 'hear' the piece and quiet. That's awe#1
And yes you are right awe#2, a hurricane on that same sea, is what I try to avoid.

So the question from me to you is; is the verse you quoted awe#1 or awe#2 ?

Personally I think awe#1 because I see a certain timeline
awe#1 => Knowledge => peace in your heart => love (for God)

Isn't that the Bible in a nutshell?
But awe#2 never can lead to love. Obedience yes. But not love....

Intersting question, WW.  I don't know if it can be separated into neat little packages like that.  If fear of God can bring obedience then it must be in some way tied to God's love, because we cannot obey apart from that love.  The Scripture says that those who love Him, obey Him and we love only because we have first experienced His love.

I just happen to think that we, in our "natural" state, will often see God's love as a fearful thing.  The same love seen (experienced) from different vantage points engenders different emotions.  Does that make sense?

Nathan ,  your reply is actually another example that scriptural context is not very well understood.

Context means nothing if you just make a summary of opinion without a solid scriptural point that puts those passages in that context.   You are however entitled to your opinion.   

The scriptural context is a rebuttle against the notion that a Christian can predict the return of Jesus Christ.   

Think what you want,  any Christian that believes they have the holy spirits annointing and can predict the return of Jesus is deceived. 

Your point about Noah meaning rest is refuted by the reference to the "flood" in the scripture that I quoted.   It is indeed talking about the coming of the flood being the same manner in which Jesus will return.  we will not know, cannot know, until it is upon us.

I will let the words of scripture be my opinion

You're not seeing what I'm saying.  I never said anything about your issue on the returning of Christ . . .frankly because you're not looking at it from a spiritual perspective.  You're bent on pushing the logical reasoning more than the spiritually edifying.  And this is why so many of our arguments take form.  We have people who see things spiritually, everything is a pattern of something else, and we have people who see everything as literal . . ."I'll let the Words of Scripture be my opinion" . . .Yikes bro . . . The problem isn't in the Scripture . . .it's in our perspectives of what it's saying.

I'll let the Word of Scripture be my opinion as well . . .but that doesn't change anything.  I'm not even sure what your argument is.  You don't think anyone can predict the coming of the Lord?  Well guess what . . .if you're still waiting . . .you missed it.  He's already been here . . .he continues to be here . . .and he'll be here tomorrow.

Who was it that showed up in the upper room?  Unless you're a divider of nations, "that" was the return of Christ.  A.D. 70???  Yup, that was him to.  Heck, Paul had him show up all the time . . just which return are ya trying to pin me on here?  He's showing up right now on this earth . . .IN US.

Not sure you had much to chew me out on before . . .but you probably have  a bit now.

Oh, and the flood . . .sheesh, it's not going to matter, until you see the spiritual piece of these things, all we're going to do is beat on each other with our wonderful personalities.

But the flood removed the defiled.  As it was in the days of rest, so shall the coming of the son of man be IN US. 

There is a passage that speaks about the knowledge of the Lord will be on the earth as the waters cover the see . .that sounds to me like a flood.

You want me to verify what I see by quoting a Scripture . . . it's another paradigm that you'll disagree with . . .but Scripture is not meant to be used as a defense of anything.  There are to many variables for me to stand here and quote stuff to you when all I'm quoting is a translation.  Adam walked with God in the cool of the Day . . .anyone ever look that up?  It has nothing to do with what we think it does.

A man who looks at his natural face in a mirror and walks away, forgets what kind of man he is . . .ever look that up?  I'm not here to quote a translation that isn't all that accurate in the first place.  My pursuit is to find where the eagles are gathered together . . .oooh . . that's another one . . .most translations try to tell you that it's supposed to be vultures. 

No, I've been through the days of biblical sparring and nobody gains anything from that.  If you don't receive the seed I throw out, fine, no offense, no harm, no foul.  The season isn't right and I'm okay with that.  But I've chosen to follow the spirit of truth . . .doesn't mean I understand everything.  In fact, there are actually times where I'm to shut up because when the Spirit speaks, my head can't hear it.  But when you want me to "confirm" by way of a passage . .that's not for your heart . .that's for your head.  And if your head can confirm it, then you'll accept it . . that's just all backwards.

It's the Peter experience.  It's why some of these conversations are frustrating.  This other post about silver and such that ended up getting locked up. . . the key with the Peter thing is . . .J . . .. here, let's throw in some context (I didn't say I don't use Scripture, I just don't judge everything by it literally)

Matthew 16
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Look at the pattern.  "Hey Peter, how do men see me?"  It is from the "big picture" that this thing started.  The Bible is a "big picture" book.  It has a "big picture" dimension to it, I'll agree, but that big picture dimension is just the surface level of what's being said.  The key to seeing it spiritual is bringing it from the outward . .the big picture, to inward . . .take the big out and you'll see the picture is always of Christ and his redemption to you.  Jesus made it personal.  "Okay, now that you have heard of all of men's opinions of what "they" think Scripture says of me . . .what do "you" see?

That's why there are so many differences between these two groups of people.  Seeing it spiritually, you're seeing it by way of personal revelation.  Jesus really doesn't care what people's opinions of him are, he cares about what "you" see.  And what we're to see is not what Scripture states us to see, but we're to see what God reveals to us to see.  And he'll use Scripture to reveal, but not to defend or prove.

Adam and Eve . . .big picture, the origin of man.  Spiritually?  They are my mind and spirit.  David and Goliath?  My spirit and . .oooh . .big surprise . . .my carnal mind! (6 fingers, 6 toes, spear weight 6 cubics . .clothed in brass . . .

I gotta tell you . . .Scripture is way more fun reading now because it no longer is requiring me to perform or conform . . .it actually has transformed.  And if others disagree . . . got no issues with that.  Just don't ask me to prove what I see . . .I'll try to explain it, but I'll leave the proving up to the spirit.  You let the words of Scripture be your opinion?  I'll let the revelation of the Spirit be mine.  I couldn't explain all of it half the time anyway.  I'm glad Jesus states his sheep would know his voice . . .I can recognize the sound.  I'm glad he didn't say his sheep will know him by his Scriptures  . . that'd only add more fuel to a fire that's unnecessary to begin with.

Quote.Scripture is way more fun reading now because it no longer is requiring me to perform or conform . . .it actually has transformed.

Amen There bro,,great fun it is toooooooooooooooo. :icon_flower:



continue  Nat, to speak as you do, because for mine,..I love it........... :icon_flower:

T

Hi nathan,

You've completely made my comments into something that was not an intention on my part.   I simply used scripture to point out that if someone believes they can predict the end times,  they are decieved.

You may believe Jesus is already returned and you may be correct, my argument was not about that.  It was about those who would disagree with you on the matter and say that he has not returned and can predict even an approximation of when that will be.

If you are correct that Jesus is already here, then you did not predict it either, you did exactly what I said scripture points out.  You realized it may be upon us now.

My point still stands in that regaurd.

And true, we can beat each other with our personalities which is why I will not address any more of your post.

Quote from: Nathan on August 23, 2008, 10:57:05 PM
No, I've been through the days of biblical sparring and nobody gains anything from that.  If you don't receive the seed I throw out, fine, no offense, no harm, no foul.  The season isn't right and I'm okay with that.  But I've chosen to follow the spirit of truth . . .doesn't mean I understand everything.  In fact, there are actually times where I'm to shut up because when the Spirit speaks, my head can't hear it.  But when you want me to "confirm" by way of a passage . .that's not for your heart . .that's for your head.  And if your head can confirm it, then you'll accept it . . that's just all backwards.

Nathan, your speech here resonates w/me. I'm a bit curious as to your background - you seem to be a young man? (or are you just young at heart?).

I also think the spirit of these discussions have been very good, hats off to all the contributors for keeping it civil and informative.  :Sparkletooth:

AM, I'm impressed by your humility and willingness to question. I hope I do not put anyone off by an apparent overconfidence in some areas. There are areas I am very weak in but in this area I speak with a lot of confidence for spiritual reasons. 

Quote from: firstborn888 on August 24, 2008, 03:27:05 AM
AM, I'm impressed by your humility and willingness to question. I hope I do not put anyone off by an apparent overconfidence in some areas. There are areas I am very weak in but in this area I speak with a lot of confidence for spiritual reasons. 

I am never put off by confidence and will engage in discussion with anyone and deal with whatever comments are made as best I can.   I am not perfect and my personality does get in the way at times.

I am confident in areas in the sense that I am not timid in putting my point of view out there and am not concerned that it is scrutinized.   But if confidence blinds one to correction then it is not good and I speak for myself as well as anyone that might speak to.

What makes a discussion tedious is the claims that one is walking greater in the spirit because they feel they have a much more correct and/or spiritual perspective than someone else.  The feeling of this spirituality has nothing to do with truth.  The announcement of such does not either and is like a clanging bell.   ;)

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 24, 2008, 04:35:07 AM

Quote from: firstborn888 on August 24, 2008, 03:27:05 AM
AM, I'm impressed by your humility and willingness to question. I hope I do not put anyone off by an apparent overconfidence in some areas. There are areas I am very weak in but in this area I speak with a lot of confidence for spiritual reasons. 

I am never put off by confidence and will engage in discussion with anyone and deal with whatever comments are made as best I can.   I am not perfect and my personality does get in the way at times.

I am confident in areas in the sense that I am not timid in putting my point of view out there and am not concerned that it is scrutinized. 

Good points. I love to have everything challenged. Anything which can be shaken will be shaken, right?

Some claim to have seen visions of "hell," yet most of those receiving them refuse even the most brief and introductory remarks concerning Bible facts rather than the words or traditions of men. Consider what Jeremiah 23:16 says: "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD." Don't misunderstand. I very much believe in dreams and visions from God.

The angel accompanying a vision I had years ago said, "The song of the Damned." I heard the sound as of many waters from the many voices of multitudes in something like a sun. I wanted to see it closer and I immediately did. There was a man rolling in the fire crying out a long wavering groan. Nothing was said to me about this being permanent or what or where it was. Some years later I realized that a guy who had visited our fellowship was that man in the fire. Shortly after, on a rainy day in an intersection his motorcycle slid out from under him and he was run over twice in the middle by a very heavy beverage truck. He at that moment rose up, turning to look into my eyes where I stood on the nearby curb holding a large Bible. He sunk to the pavement and died a little later.

ReFORMer, interesting experience.  I also am one that does approach the dreams and visions cautiously, I got an email from a lady who is very much one who searches out these prophetic people and she's apparently on several mailing lists of their yearly predictions of what God is apparently going to do . . . in one of these there was a letter to the president requesting a meeting with him to "discuss" the things God has told this prophet . . .one of the things that stuck out was a warning . . .he stated that he saw Obama being assasinated and Hilary was seen to be replacement for the leader of America . . .and now we find out . . .she's not even in the running at all . . .

Like anything else for me, when God "does" give me a vision or dream . .and to my knowledge, this has only happened once, but I kept it in my mind, but only on the back burner... It's like if someone wanted to get new carpeting and they needed to compare the colors, they'd get  a swatch of the new and bring it home to see how the rest of their house matched it . . . the visions and dreams to me are swatches . . .I'll keep them around until I enter a room spiritually, where it matches up and go from there.  Until then, I really don't give them that much thought.

Firstborn888,
I'm voting for "young at heart".  I'm 47, been in the church since birth, mainly in the assemblies.  My Dad is very strong in his beliefs, even though he always seemed to be the only one that saw things a certain way.  I myself, drifted in and out of church in the middle years . . .I stayed in mostly due to singing in the choir . .. always been a worshiper at heart . . .met my wife in church, got married, then quit for a couple years.  Had two girls . . .at my wife's prompting, we started going back . . .wanted to establish some religion in the girls as they were still young.

But when we returned, the church had been very deeply affected by the Florida, Brownsville revival . . .and in that, I, even though I never made the trip to Florida, I did have a life-changing experience through that and haven't looked back since.  6 years ago, I did have my own vision and led me to becoming the Pastor of the church I'm currently in.  One year into this pastorship, I doctrinally left the traditional understanding for the kingdom perspectives.  I've been keeping a fairly low profile when around my peers in the denomination . . .not out of fear, just out of respect for the seasons of others. 

I quit preparing sermons, quit preaching denominational stuff, even quit singing current contemporary songs . .not because we're against them, it's just God has been giving us our own things to sing that are much more relevant to what he's been teaching us . . . "But then the day had come, God sent a new song, words my mind had never sung, but my spirit has known all along . . .it's not about knowledge or increasing understanding, it's flying in the spirit without worrying about the landing . . ."

it's a hoot.


Paul:
I did start my response to you off by stating I wasn't seeing clearly what your argument was . . .and the points I laid out were dealing with other things you had stated about how I took things out of context . .and that you would let the Bible be your opinion . .those are the comments I was addressing.  I think you and I agree on the idea of people trying to put a literal time-line to Scripture . .however . .the other point I was stating there was the fact that this coming of the Lord isn't even an accurate understanding either . . .again, these things are just where I'm at and what I see today . .thing's continue to move as we live and have our being in Christ.  Not offended or frustrated.  Just laying out my own perspective on some of the things that were said.

For me, truth isn't about who's right or who's wrong . . . If anything, I see Truth as the illuminating factor in "who's One."

Quote from: Nathan on August 25, 2008, 04:16:11 PM

Firstborn888,
I'm voting for "young at heart".  I'm 47, been in the church since birth, mainly in the assemblies.  My Dad is very strong in his beliefs, even though he always seemed to be the only one that saw things a certain way.  I myself, drifted in and out of church in the middle years . . .I stayed in mostly due to singing in the choir . .. always been a worshiper at heart . . .met my wife in church, got married, then quit for a couple years.  Had two girls . . .

Wow. You have the fresh zeal/passion of a 25 year old. That's awesome. My wife was raised AG and I have 2 girls as well. I've always been at odds with the AG for various reasons even though there are some great folks and good friends there and some great worship times. I remember a 'worship concert' in the early eighties (or late 70's?) with Craig Smith (former beegees drummer) and I also went to Brownsville soon after that started.

I came to the Lord directly from atheism and it happened basically alone in my room (in '77 at the age of 20) and I came to know UR from scripture almost immediately so I carry very little religious baggage for which I am very thankful  :thumbsup: 

If anyone's interested you can read my brief testimony at Debbie Boutwell's site http://scaredofhell.com/

It's on the 'testimonies' page http://scaredofhell.com/Testimonies.html and is the third one down entitled "Byron's story"

Here's an update:

I guess 23 minutes of fame wasn't quite enough for Mr. Weise. As I was strolling through Walmart yesterday, I noticed his book - the product of his sick little mind. No surprise, I'd seen it in Walmart before. But right next to it, there's another book - at least twice as thick - and it's his too, a sequel to his infernal series. The title was Hell, Separating Fact and Fiction, or something like that. Can you believe it? He "goes to hell" and suddenly he's an expert on hellology (did I just make up a new word?  :laughing7: ) I glanced through the table of contents and it supposedly answers the FAQs about hell, you know like Why would a loving God send people to hell?, etc. There's no need to waste your time reading it. I predict that he just repeats the same nonsense we've all been fed for centuries. Even so, there are many questions no ET believer could ever answer. Here's just one, for example: If salvation means being saved from hell, why is it never defined as such? If we're saved from hell, wouldn't that be the most important thing about it? Who cares about being saved from "our enemies", "this present evil world", if our eternal fate is in the balance? Why would Jesus waste his time healing the sick and feeding the hungry if the masses were on their way to hell?

I know Average Bear. Lots about these Heaven and Hell NDE's just don't add up to me. They are still scary none the less.

Blessings
Dee

I personally think Bill Weiss is more interested in making money than promoting God's Word. He has a second book out too- as if his first 5 seconds of fame weren't enough for him.

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on November 26, 2008, 05:55:05 AM
I personally think Bill Weiss is more interested in making money than promoting God's Word. He has a second book out too- as if his first 5 seconds of fame weren't enough for him.

I didn't know if he was profiting or not. I watched/listened to his wife's introduction and Bill's telling of the entire experience and they seemed sincere to me even though Bill's use of scripture was such a crazy stretch in almost every case he quoted it. That led to my rebuttal toward the beginning of this thread.

All I know is that when I picked up this book at a Christian bookstore, I could feel the Lord bidding me not to read it.

Quote from: firstborn888 on November 26, 2008, 06:01:56 AM

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on November 26, 2008, 05:55:05 AM
I personally think Bill Weiss is more interested in making money than promoting God's Word. He has a second book out too- as if his first 5 seconds of fame weren't enough for him.

I didn't know if he was profiting or not. I watched/listened to his wife's introduction and Bill's telling of the entire experience and they seemed sincere to me even though Bill's use of scripture was such a crazy stretch in almost every case he quoted it. That led to my rebuttal toward the beginning of this thread.

So you think he might have dreamt it all? As opposed to lying to try and get fame?

Blessings
Dee

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on November 27, 2008, 01:40:24 AM
All I know is that when I picked up this book at a Christian bookstore, I could feel the Lord bidding me not to read it.

Hi Andromeda ! 
there is alot of theings
  I dont handle  taste and touch  anylonger .. :mblush: :msealed:
   Like Paul  taught  here .
Wherefore if you e be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you  subject to ordinances,


Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;


Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

  I had to learn whjat teaching/ doctrine of men was first! :sigh:

   Like this fellow is teaching / preaching  :thumbdown:
  But sometimes the Lord does use fear to  make us wake up out of sleep /death  mode of thinking
   Spiritually speaking here

Quote from: rosered on November 27, 2008, 05:55:27 PM

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on November 27, 2008, 01:40:24 AM
All I know is that when I picked up this book at a Christian bookstore, I could feel the Lord bidding me not to read it.

Hi Andromeda ! 
there is alot of theings
  I dont handle  taste and touch  anylonger .. :mblush: :msealed:
   Like Paul  taught  here .
Wherefore if you e be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you  subject to ordinances,


Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;


Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

  I had to learn whjat teaching/ doctrine of men was first! :sigh:

   Like this fellow is teaching / preaching  :thumbdown:
  But sometimes the Lord does use fear to  make us wake up out of sleep /death  mode of thinking
   Spiritually speaking here

hUH? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

 
Sorry about that sis , I get alot of that  :sigh:
  I just meant that I dont  go for alot of reading outside the Bible it self  these days
  thats all I was trying to say  :mblush:

   I  apologize for my incoherence .

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 18, 2008, 08:53:31 AM
What do universalists make of this testimony? Does it serve as a witness or no?

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdugdTIS74&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CRRqH-Fmk&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_JZo0Pbhk&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsKp9AVlC0&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKEpuOfBRE&feature=related
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOtx0cJlhU&feature=related
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxKHoR9mZg&feature=related
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6XBzloxY&feature=related

No it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

QuoteTi 6:14  That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality
1Ti 1:17  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

(http://www.storesonline.com/images/sotemplates/t104/header.img?label.text=Chapter%2016%20%20%20%20%20THE%20FIRST%20LIE%20OF%20SATAN%20-%20%27YOU%20WILL%20NOT%20SURELY%20DIE%27)

http://www.godoftheages.com/site/1351515/page/686554

QuoteNo it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

Don't you believe our souls are immortal? Do you believe in annihilation?

Quote from: DeeDee on December 03, 2008, 08:21:06 AM

QuoteNo it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

Don't you believe our souls are immortal? Do you believe in annihilation?

Do you think we have an immortal soul?

Did you read the scriptures I quoted as well as the link I posted(which is David and Zoe Sulems book - God's plan for all

Quote
1Ti 6:13  I charge thee, before God, who is making all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who did testify before Pontius Pilate the right profession,
1Ti 6:14  that thou keep the command unspotted, unblameable, till the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15  which in His own times He shall shew--the blessed and only potentate, the King of the kings and Lord of the lords,
1Ti 6:16  who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during!

Hell's teaching is based on the immortality of the soul

Here is another link

http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_do_you_have_an_immortal_soul.htm

Yes, I would say at this point, I believe in annihilation more than UR, that doesn't mean I want to, but I haven't had UR confirmed to me 100% yet, however ET doesn't make sense at all, as it would mean that God either planned or allowed humans would come to existence, knowing what their fate would be (if that were true), and that doesn't make sense :sigh:

Quote from: DeeDee on December 03, 2008, 08:21:06 AM

QuoteNo it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

Don't you believe our souls are immortal? Do you believe in annihilation?

i dont believe in an immortal soul as well, but this doesnt condradict universalism

this is great stuff i think:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/index.html

Universalism means that oneday we all land up with God. As in everything God made goes back to him. Then no more pain and death and suffering etc. - Then eternal life with our eternal souls. What do you guys believe? That we just die and its over? Or that we live again but only for a while?

I'll keep searching for the answer

QuoteWhat do you guys believe? That we just die and its over? Or that we live again but only for a while?

i would say resurrection of the body, with immortal bodies one day

There is a fine line on our immortality.


We do not inherantly have it.


1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1Ti 6:16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!

It must be given to us.


2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1C 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1C 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

1C 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The difference is the wording.  We do not have immortality as it being an inherant part of our existance.   God has it and it will be put upon us, but it does not say that it will be then inherant to us.

If annihilation is correct, then that is permanant death, death cannot be swallowed up  victory, death would be the victor.

No, I don't see that at all.  I am whole.  The only thing I live in that's temporary is this tent of skin.  Soul and spirit . . . I don't see where either are mortal.  I believe imortality came in when I was conceived.  This body of flesh is mortal, but my spirit and soul are not.

Shadow, I can't help but see your sadness when sharing your conclusions.  If Christ truly is the abundant life he says he is, how can there then be sadness in anything?  To wish to be nonexistant than to exist and then die . . .neither one of those manifest life and light.  I'd be sad to if I believed that way.  But look at your reaction . . .that alone should indicate that there's no truth to it. 

My soul is my personality, it's what makes me unique to all other people.  One of the most precious things about God is that he becomes "personal" to all of us, on "our" level of awareness and relationship.  He's not cloning us into "one" robotic body.  That's the beauty of 1 Corinthians 12.  So many emphasize the gifts of the spirit, when the message is also speaking of how we who are so different from each other, are given the miracle of becoming "one" with each other through the Spirit.  We don't lose our uniqueness, we actually become stronger "because of" our differences . . .when we are properly aligned from within. 

Which then leads us to the next issue . . .if that's the case, then why are there so many divisions between people rather than unity?  For me, it's because so many are not living according to the spirit, but according to their flesh.  Natural reasoning is what divides.  Knowledge of Good and evil is such a huge stronghold because of it's misinterpretations of the reasoning mind.

So many seem to embrace this when the original instruction was that we were not to eat of it.  Why was it so bad for man to know right from wrong?  Obviously, it to was created by God.  It to was "in" the garden.  It's almost like that old cliche of "don't push the red button"  in every scenerio, somebody ALWAYS ends up pushing the button. 

In the garden, so long as they lived off the trees provided, including the tree of life which was also the centerpiece of the garden, knowing good and evil was never a concern.  The garden is the realm of the spirit.  When we walk in the spirit . . .knowing good and evil is not our concern.  Why?  Because when we are in the spirit, we are already withing the boundaries of good and evil.  But when we eat from the knowledge, we've just cut off the umbilical chord of the spirit.  We've separated ourselves from our parent. 

It's a heavy weapon to carry, this knowledge of good and evil.  Jesus carried it.  He's the only one that could carry the weapon and never actually use it on anyone.  He had every opportunity.  Judas is the most glaring, but I'm sure every one of the disciples deserved a personal "time-out" from Jesus as he would need to pull them aside, explain where they screwed up and encourage them not to do it anymore.  But he never did.  He knew full well Judas was a cheat, but yet, he let him be their treasurer.  How many churches would have allowed "that" to continue?

Spirit - soul - flesh . . .that's the original order where the anointing flows freely. 
Soul - flesh - spirit . . .that's what Adam changed within him, the order of God.
Ararat = The curse is reversed . . . that's where God brought Noah (means rest) in the ark (Christ).  He reversed the order in us so that the river of life could flow again.

So we have an advantage that no men before us had.  We have even a greater advantage than those in the New Testament.  Why?  Because we have their history to fall back on and learn from.  They didn't.  They were the first generation.  They were it.  They were infants.  And that's who Scripture was written to, and for.  I don't want to remain in the same spiritual state as the first generation of believers.  I don't want to take the baby food written for them and continue to live literally by it today.

I want to be led by the spirit, not by the letter of the Word.  It is the Spirit that wrote the word, not the Word that justified the Spirit.  Read it?  Absolutely.  Study it?  yup.  Apply it?  not a problem.  Enforce it?  Heavens NO. Live by it?  no again.  Why?  Because the Word is written IN MY HEART.  To conform to what's written on paper stunts the growth of what God want's to do in my heart.  It's a frame . .it's not the final say.

What does all of this have to do with the original thought of whether my soul is mortal or imortal? 

To take a tangible written verse and interpret it literally is one, taking it out of context (by about 2,000 years) and two, embracing baby food.  And my mind is the major component that does that.  My natural reasoning is my interpretor.  The very thing that is at enmity against God, is what I use to draw my conclusions "about" God.  And in doing so, there will ALWAYS be a difference of opinion.  And there's nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion.  The evidence of the soul leading the spirit comes when what I say is questioned by another and I do two things.  One, I demand proof.  Which is not a good sign at all due to the fact that we live by "faith".  And secondly, I feel responsible to "defend" my beliefs.

The mind is self-centered.  When it's confronted, it immediately goes into a defensive posture to protect itself.  If we're led by the spirit, the mind is already in submission and no offense is given or received.  The Word "is" Spirit when it's not interpreted through the reasoning of the mind.  Spirit plants seeds of life into the mind, the mind then births that seed into it's understanding and maturity of truth results within the nature of the body.

How on earth did I end up way over here?

Oh . . .the soul and spirit . .. they are both immortal.

Okay . . fire away!

I agree we are immortal, I simply believe it is important to know the nature of it.

The picture that the scripture shows me is that we are not God.  We do not possess immortality unless it is given to us.

I think that is important to know because it is a picture of Gods character and promise. 

If God is love then our immortality cannot be given to us for eternal torment unless Gods character is contradictory to LOVE and God giving immortality contradicts annihilation.

At what point is immortality given to us?

Quote from: Nathan on December 03, 2008, 09:12:48 PM
At what point is immortality given to us?

Thats a good question.  I am not sure I know exactly.

I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 03, 2008, 08:22:57 PM

I agree we are immortal, I simply believe it is important to know the nature of it.

Why is this significant to debate?  Whether it's given or . . .what?  How else would we have our imortality?  How would we have the breath we have had it first not been given?  How would we be able to comprehend without being "given" a mind to comprehend with?

For me, especially now that I see the end of both believers and unbelievers to have the same destination, I believe whether you accept Christ or not, you are immortal . . .your spirit and soul . . .your body "becomes" imortal at the resurrection of all things . . .your soul matures into imortality . .. even though imortality is something it already has, it just doesn't have the infinite ability to grasp what that means.  But as we mature in Truth, understanding "becomes" clearer.  As to whether or not we'll ever be able to grasp the magnitude of that truth while still in these limited bodies is debatible.  And my spirit is without question already immortal.  I believe it was imortal before it was made manifest in the womb of my mother.  The reason why I see it that way is because we "are" sent from God who is spirit, to manifest on this earth . .when we die, our spirit's return to God or sent them . . .Ecclesiastes 12.

6 Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don't wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. 7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 04:30:10 PM
I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and soul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

Quote from: Nathan on December 04, 2008, 04:59:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 04:30:10 PM
I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and sRom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. oul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

You still being Brief.....

The enmity( hatred)Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

is the soul( paul Calls Flesh) which Nat speaks of, that Is ,the Heart and Mind being  DEAD to Christ.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace( Christ In US). 

We now being Renewed with a NEW heart and Mind enabling us to see beyond the Veil ....

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;  Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Nathan on December 04, 2008, 04:59:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 04:30:10 PM
I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and soul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

quote author=Taffy link=topic=3173.msg40774#msg40774 date=1228404070]

Quote from: Nathan on December 04, 2008, 04:59:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 04:30:10 PM
I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and sRom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. oul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

You still being Brief.....

The enmity( hatred)Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

is the soul( paul Calls Flesh) which Nat speaks of, that Is ,the Heart and Mind being  DEAD to Christ.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace( Christ In US). 

We now being Renewed with a NEW heart and Mind enabling us to see beyond the Veil ....

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;  Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

:icon_flower:
[/quote]

:goodone:

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 06:13:19 PM

Quote from: Nathan on December 04, 2008, 04:59:44 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 04:30:10 PM
I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and soul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

For me, the carnal, that they say is the body, and the natural that they say is the soul, I think is turned around.  For me, the body is natural things and the mind is carnal reasoning.

My blueprint is the tabernacle of Moses.  The outer court is the body, the holy place is the laboring mind and the holy of holies is the realm of spiritual rest.  And one of the indicators for me is how each of these divisions in the tabernacle are lit . . .as everything derives from light.  In the outer court, it's illuminated by NATURAL sunlight.  1st dimension.  In the holy place, it's illuminated by CULTIVATED light by way of priests supplying oil, trimming the wick, keeping the fire burning for without their assistance, it would eventually starve itself out.  Much like how the mind works, if we don't fill it with heavenly thoughts, it will consume us with the carnality, the darkness of our circumstances.

And thirdly, which is always most important above all . . .the holy of holies is illuminated by God's presence and glory . . .actually, the light is evidence of his glory . .it's his glory manifesting.  But regardless of what you call it, it's all spiritual and requires no work or assistance of men.  3rd dimensional awareness does not come from knowing the historical background, (1st dimension) it does not come from mental manipulation or natural reasoning (2 dimension) but only through revelation from the Father "through" the Son. 

Spirit . . .soul . . .then body.  when we change or divert the order in any other way than this, we cut off the ability for the river to flow in, or out of us.  The hardest thing for my mind to do is accept something that it doesn't understand.  But that's what faith is.  Relying on Biblical proof, only strokes the ego of the mind through reasoning . . .but faith is seeing what literally isn't there.  It's a whole new ball game.

QuoteThe hardest thing for my mind to do is accept something that it doesn't understand.  But that's what faith is.  Relying on Biblical proof, only strokes the ego of the mind through reasoning . . .but faith is seeing what literally isn't there.  It's a whole new ball game.

Hey Nathan,

The Problem is that without biblical proof, you can develop faith in something that is not really from God. Without grounding our thoughts in scripture, we can create an allegory for any story or instance in the bible and each come up with different conclusions.

The bible speaks to our hearts through the spirit, therefore:

2Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..."

Nathan, we must be able to back up with scripture whatever revelation the spirit has given us, otherwise these revelations could easily be the concoctions of our own imagination.

The scripture is the final word, for it is God breathed, if a position cannot be scripturally backed, then it could easily be the position of the person and not of God.

I write this to you, because it is evident how much you yearn for God and are learning from him.

With love,
At peace

I wonder if Cornelius would appreciate that kind of thinking . . .I'll only step out if the Bible supports me . . . Peter went not because he had a vision and then check the bible for validation, but because he recognized the voice from within. 

I'm not saying make up your own way and throw out the Bible.  I'm saying the Bible is written "in your heart" and as such, there doesn't need to be so much power put into a written translation that may or may not be saying what my mind thinks it is saying.  I take it into much consideration, but it's not the final say  .. . "if" my head leans in and disrupts truth in me, I gotta believe that there is a coverage of grace in areas where I do mess up.  The over all intent is not to create my own religion, but to walk down the road that's been prepared ahead of me.  The Bible points "to" the Word . . .but I don't see it as the final word.

  Hi Nate , I got alot out of what you have shared and  we basically think alot the same way  :thumbsup: you just ''flow'' alot better than me ..hee hee
  I am very blessed by your thoughts /posts ,
   and I for one am so glad you share  what  treasures are in your heart  :HeartThrob:

  God love ya bro ..rose

Thanks for the warmness Rose . . .I love to read the stuff you and Taf come up with . . .seriously, you have some truly deep things in you and it's so cool to feel the refreshing take place as a result of just a phrase or two from you. 

I guess I can't argue to much to those who push back a little in some areas.  After rereading the things I wrote, it does sound a bit contrary, but I still wouldn't change what was written because I "do" believe it to be true . . . just not comfortable.

But I think God wants us to be TOTALLY dependant on HIM rather than the translated letters of anointing.  I think also of Abraham . . . the law stated clearly that by no means was a person to sacrifice another human being . . .and yet . . .there goes Abe off in the bush with his boy and a knife . . . Just how confident are you that it's God's voice speaking to you through those pages?  Doesn't matter though . . .confidence isn't all that healthy of a quality to have when it comes to spiritual matters.  It's hard to be confident and humble at the same time.  Humility is the result of an open heart and mind.  Always willing to receive and only give when the opportunity is there . .nothing is forced.

Blessings guys.

Quote from: Nathan on December 04, 2008, 04:45:29 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 03, 2008, 08:22:57 PM

I agree we are immortal, I simply believe it is important to know the nature of it.

Why is this significant to debate?  Whether it's given or . . .what?  How else would we have our imortality?  How would we have the breath we have had it first not been given?  How would we be able to comprehend without being "given" a mind to comprehend with?

Actually it is important, there are people, maybe not here, that believe we have always existed, that this is just a transition to being equal with God.   If we are inherantly immortal then asking the question "how else" will give the answer that we have always been and God did not have to give us that.

In fact, there is a line of reasoning in some mystic thought that we in fact chose to be in this life to become like Gods and that we have only forgotten who we once were and we are on our way back,  these are mystics that claim some thought towards the bible.   

It may not matter here , in this forum,  may not matter to you for any reason, 

I do not think that everyone automatically assumes that.    I guess if becoming more spiritual  means I shouldn't point something out in scripture, you can have your brand of it.  I want no part of it.

Here's a different take on 23 Minutes in hell :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance: :boyheart: :girlheart:, apparently there's major discrepancies in the Bill Wiese (OBE - Whatever) which is plastered all over the net (I couldn't stomach watching them myself so I've only ever seen one clip in it's entirety)

Here are 2 audios from L Ray Smith in .mp3 format

23 minutes in hell PART1 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%2007-06-08%20Pt_1.mp3)

23 minutes in hell PART2 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%2007-06-08%20Pt_2.mp3)

[quote     I guess if becoming more spiritual  means I shouldn't point something out in scripture, you can have your brand of it.  I want no part of it.


[/quote]

We're still not seeing what's being said.  I "do" think there is a problem when we embrace was is written literally.  I "do NOT" think that means to throw the Bible away and "create" my own doctrine.  I just came across a really interesting verse today that fits this very issue.  It's Hebrews 4:2 and it deals with the fact that many take the Word without MIXING it with faith and as a result, it profits nothing.  And being one of reputation for long-windedness, I shant let you down here either . . .I'm posting the entire message as it's in the context of the original topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We've been taught that Adam fell .  . . which in essence he did, but what if even "that" was planned?  If he didn't fall, Jesus could not manifest as the Christ. 

Hebrews 4:2, 3
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Sigh . . .this was supposed to be in connection with the little imaginative surmising below but once again, I find myself unearthing another nugget totally unrelated, but very much where I've been hovering as of late.  Originally, all I was after was verse 3, but it seemed to be in the middle of a breath so I threw in verse 2.  The foundation of the world thinking really changes so many "what if's" in my reasoning because it again makes it very clear that the cross was not a plan "b" due to the fall of man.  But that it was already completed in the spirit "before" Adam even came on the scene.  But what was finished in the spirit, was yet to be lived out in the flesh.  I see the spiritual realm a prophecy of what's to happen in the natural.  The spiritual proclamation is not to say it's "going" to happen in the spirit, but that it already "has" happened there and now will also happen in the flesh.

So, the redemption of man already took place before there was even a natural realm for it to be lived out in.  Why was man created?  To live out in the flesh, the redemptive story that already transpired in the spirit . . and we are still living out the spiritually completed plan.  It's crazy, but whether my mind is aware of my actions or not, I am living out the original plan God had preordained before "man" ever existed.  It's a form of predestination, but not so much as what man has inferred it to be.  Man will jump to the conclusion that "if my life is predestined, then why bother?"  And that is the reasoning of a carnal mind, and not of a spirit sent from God . .which is what we all are. 

No, it has nothing to do with whether or not you "believe" in God as to whether or not his original plan will be played out by your life.  Look at the people all through Scripture who had absolutely no awareness that God even existed, that were used for his purpose in the process of maturing a nation. Whether I "believe" or not has no relevance.  What my belief or "faith" DOES do is, it releases life through me into others so that I become reproductive into the kingdom.  At any rate, Adam was already redeemed even before he fell . . .or . . .before he  . . ."jumped".   Our emotions can distract us from the fact that it's still God's plan. 

So . . .I dug up the above verse . . . but that's not the one that jumped out at me here today.  The above is just something that God has already led us to.  What is written after this, is yet another "faith" (Romans 1:17) that God is leading us into yet again.  The Word was preached both to our ancestors, and to us, but our ancestors did not profit from it in the same way as we are right now because our ancestors took the Word at face value.  They interpreted it literally.  "What is good for the goose, is good for the gander" mentality.

"They" were to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth . . .and "We" should preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.  "They" were to rebuke and reproof those who were not in alignment with what they were taught . .and "we" are to rebuke and reproof in the same manner, for the same reasons.  It goes on and on.  What was to be understood literally to "that" generation, is to be also handed down literally to our generation.  But that's not faith, nor is it profitable for "my" generation.  For me to hear what I have heard for all my life is of no profit to me now.  It's just fortifying where I currently am, with what I already know.  Growth is not reaffirming myself with what I already know.  Growth is receiving what I've never heard before.  When you read the Bible from one cover to the other . . .that's it.  There's no other "advanced Bible" to graduate into.  After that, it's all reviewing what you've already been through.

So . . .am I saying the Bible is disposable?  Absolutely not.  But I will say, after you've read through it, you know the stories and principles fairly well, you don't have to memorize the Bible to understand it's principles.  But once you have them down . . .then what?  Tradition will tell you that if you come to a place where you find yourself searching and searching for something "deeper" than what you've had this far in your life, that the time has come for you to teach others.  But the truth is, that's nothing more than a distraction for your hunger.  What they're actually saying when they do that is . . . this "is" all there is.  And once you come to "this" place, what feeds you now, will be the process of teaching others.  And that may be great for a couple months, but after any prolonged period of time, what it's going to end up doing is . . .it's going to wear you out.  Why?

Because for all of your traditional life, you've been fed the idea that more knowledge is more food.  The more you learn, the more you grow, the more you grow, the more you know, the more you know, the more you can now teach others.   It's the cycle of church life.  But it's time guys . . .our time has come.  We are being called out from the ranks of living in traditional reasoning.  Some of us have felt the twinge of life here and there, but our overall thinking is still entrenched in our religious background thinking.  In our worship yesterday, it got so, so  . . .what's the word I'm looking for . . . so HEAVY.  It began with just singing a spiritual song . .but people started seeing visions and later sharing them.  What I saw was an army, which basically sounds like any other spiritual vision one may have.  But this army was not an army of war, but an army of peace.  I believe what I saw was what Revelation speaks of when the Kings of the East cross the river Euphrates.  We are those kings and we are kings of resurrection . .the rising of the Son.  And we come across a dry river bed. 

Euphrates means "to break forth" It's considered as the river of the East . . . when it dries up, that's a picture of Christ dying as us.  And as a result of him dying, as a result of the river drying up, it gives us access to cross over into our promised land.  The river has dried up 2000 years ago and the army has been accumulating with kings ever since.  There is only one day when they will advance into the promised land . . and that is on the day of the Sabbath . .which is what we again are entering into.  Our ancestors did not have what we have.  They did not take the Bible and mix it with the Spirit.  They embraced the Bible for what it said literally . . .as so many still do today.  And while they are professing their stand on the Word, they use that same Word to  slice each other into little itty bitty pieces.

The Word MUST be mixed with FAITH.  And Faith only comes by HEARING . . .not hearing someone quote a Scripture . .but hearing the Word IN YOU.  Your heart is the Bible now . .that's where God has gone through great measures to write it.  Read your Bible . .but embrace your heart . . .for there is where your true love awaits you.

The problem is Nathan,  your entering into a forum post where no teaching is ever complete.   Just because I think it is important to define the nature of our immortality does not mean I am not wanting to also see the spiritual nature behind it,  it just didn't happen to get talked about in that post. 

So if your going to constantly berate me for pointing physical things out and that to you is trying to get me to see the spiritual then I want no part of your attitude,  feel free to post as much as you like, it doesn't change the tone you have towards people in that regaurd and if thats the great spirituality you teach, good for you,  I want no part of it.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 08, 2008, 10:36:42 PM

The problem is Nathan,  your entering into a forum post where no teaching is ever complete.   Just because I think it is important to define the nature of our immortality does not mean I am not wanting to also see the spiritual nature behind it,  it just didn't happen to get talked about in that post. 

So if your going to constantly berate me for pointing physical things out and that to you is trying to get me to see the spiritual then I want no part of your attitude,  feel free to post as much as you like, it doesn't change the tone you have towards people in that regaurd and if thats the great spirituality you teach, good for you,  I want no part of it.

Personally I see NO attitude Problem nor Tone In Nats Posts, he explains very well Both literal and Spiritual.

So My account Nat, Continue, for Some truly Benefit from what you share.

:icon_flower:

LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 08, 2008, 10:45:49 PM


LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

Quote from: Taffy on December 08, 2008, 10:57:38 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 08, 2008, 10:45:49 PM


LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

I'm not telling him to stop the spiritual Talk so it's obvious you have no idea what your responding to,  I'm not leaving,  didn't even ask nathan to stop posting.

I quote a friggen scripture and I'm asked  "what that matters"  then I am told I do not see what is being said after answering why I think it matters.  I'm telling Nathan I do not care for his type of spirituality so if I am free to express myself, thats me expressing myself.

So whatever dude.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 08, 2008, 11:15:20 PM

Quote from: Taffy on December 08, 2008, 10:57:38 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 08, 2008, 10:45:49 PM


LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

I'm not telling him to stop the spiritual Talk so it's obvious you have no idea what your responding to,  I'm not leaving,  didn't even ask nathan to stop posting.

I quote a friggen scripture and I'm asked  "what that matters"  then I am told I do not see what is being said after answering why I think it matters.  I'm telling Nathan I do not care for his type of spirituality so if I am free to express myself, thats me expressing myself.

So whatever dude.

well Im Glad your Not leaving.. :icon_flower:

Theres an Obvious distain for such Spiritual Talk ,thats your prerogative,  :icon_flower: but ive  seen some forced from the Board by a Majority who at times DONT agree....

Ya ever Notice how some come out the Closet when someone sets the Bench mark?

Go figure Bud :icon_flower:





My Point is and Was..Get used to what freedom we Have in these parts..as Im sure its Not everyones Liking...

Quote from: Taffy on December 08, 2008, 11:36:07 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 08, 2008, 11:15:20 PM

Quote from: Taffy on December 08, 2008, 10:57:38 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 08, 2008, 10:45:49 PM


LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

I'm not telling him to stop the spiritual Talk so it's obvious you have no idea what your responding to,  I'm not leaving,  didn't even ask nathan to stop posting.

I quote a friggen scripture and I'm asked  "what that matters"  then I am told I do not see what is being said after answering why I think it matters.  I'm telling Nathan I do not care for his type of spirituality so if I am free to express myself, thats me expressing myself.

So whatever dude.

well Im Glad your Not leaving.. :icon_flower:

Theres an Obvious distain for such Spiritual Talk ,thats your prerogative,  :icon_flower: but ive  seen some forced from the Board by a Majority who at times DONT agree....

Ya ever Notice how some come out the Closet when someone sets the Bench mark?

Go figure Bud :icon_flower:

My Point is and Was..Get used to what freedom we Have in these parts..as Im sure its Not everyones Liking...

Nope, no distain for spiritual talk, in fact I encourage it.  If people do not think I encourage it then they haven't read many things that I have written. 

You've completely missed what I was saying to Nathan, so have a happy day.    :thumbsup:

Likewise  :icon_flower:

Wow . . .there seems to be a desire for warring on the forum lately . . . I spent . ..literally, I spent all of today reading up on the other thread that's like . . .25 pages now . .only to get to the end and find it's locked . . .and then I check out to see what responses I got on this and find another argument . . .first off . . .Taf, sorry about sucking you into this one . .and Paul . . .I'll tell you straight up . .I've never met Taffy in person, never spoke with him over the phone, but I will tell you Taf and I are both of a kindred spirit and I love the man to death . . .something there with him that's such a deeper connection than others  . .but by your response to him I sense you're already aware of this.

I don't mean to come off as you claim I have.  I comment the way I do about the spiritual side because of all the arguments, no one offers a spiritual picture.  They, and you, may accuse me of being to mystic, but when you post, there is no explanation given that there is "other" perspectives or other ways to see it than what you're specifically saying . .so that causes me to think that you feel the literal is more important than the spiritual . .but the call for us is not to walk in our own reasoning, or walk in the flesh, but to walk in the spirit.  So that is always first and foremost in my heart.

I don't mean to come off as a know-it-all teacher . . .I do teach, and love doing so, but I don't try that here so much . . .mostly I share with context.  It's how God wired me.  I think I get it from my Dad . . he's even longer winded than I am.  I apologize for the "tone" of my messages.  It may be deeper than that but our relationship is solely based on what is said on these boards, so I won't try to assume what I don't know.

Bottom line, I share what I see.  I don't rely on what I know.  It's clear that the mind of man has issues when it comes to the things of God . . .but if I can't speak in love, I'm nothing buy an annoying noise.  If that's what I become to you, I apologize.  My quest is not to get everyone to see what I see.  Truly, my desire is to illuminate the fire in others so that they to can be consumed by the light of God and let their minds submit to their spirits.

If anything, it blows my mind to hear and see what I do say because half the stuff I write . . . no one has told me either.  Someone on the locked thread mentioned trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole . . .well . . .when you're dealing with the spirit . . .the square peg actually fits the round hole because . . .it's dimensional.  For example, if you go to McDonnalds (feeling a little hungry) and take the straw out . . .look at it from end to end, it looks like a long rectangle . .but when you turn it . . .and look "through" it, you can see that your rectangle is actually round . .it just depends on "what perspective" you're looking at it from.

We have people demanding the Word is Square and others demanding the Word is round . . .and God simply says . . .yup.

Apologies to all Nat

Im a Little hot under the collar for moment,..a Gathering of other issues .

:icon_flower:

QuoteWe have people demanding the Word is Square and others demanding the Word is round . . .and God simply says . . .yup.

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: can't help it that just struck me as funny, true but funny

Quote from: pneuma on December 09, 2008, 01:01:14 AM

QuoteWe have people demanding the Word is Square and others demanding the Word is round . . .and God simply says . . .yup.

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: can't help it that just struck me as funny, true but funny

Please Scott..No Laughing..

Unless ya Got some real Funnies to Share :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

Quote from: Shadow on December 05, 2008, 11:14:58 PM
Here's a different take on 23 Minutes in hell :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance: :boyheart: :girlheart:, apparently there's major discrepancies in the Bill Wiese (OBE - Whatever) which is plastered all over the net (I couldn't stomach watching them myself so I've only ever seen one clip in it's entirety)

Here are 2 audios from L Ray Smith in .mp3 format

23 minutes in hell PART1 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%2007-06-08%20Pt_1.mp3)

23 minutes in hell PART2 (http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%2007-06-08%20Pt_2.mp3)

Hi Shadow,

Thanks for the links, it's been a while since I heard Ray speak. Boy does he ever love to  :spank: these idiots, who seek to make money off of the fear others!


Paul

Nathan I disagree that no one offers the spiritual, why does it have to meet your criteria of it? 

We seem to disagree that the physcial in this life will play a part of the spiritual because until we are totally spiritual beings thats how it wuill be.

You can be as mystic as you like but the objections I raise with mystic people is that they think they have a better handle on it than someone else and thats when they start appearing critical of those who do not see it their way.

You asked me why what I wrote matters,  I explained my thoughts on the matter and all that gets said to me and your kindred spirit is that I hate the spiritual.  What I am saying is if your idea of being more spiritual than someone else is how you comment to me when I post something physical in nature, then you can have it.   I see nothing greater through that at all. 


Great, your blown away by what you know, cool,  I am blown away by things that I see,  but I do not need you to follow my spirituality to know the spiritual things I do see and share the physical side of things that helped get me there.

Post made from this Moment forth..sorry it had to be YOU Paul...that are NOT polite will be Edited...

thats EVERYONE...

Got a Complaint..take it to Martin.

We will strive to be Consistent from this day Forth WITH EVERYONE.

Nathan I disagree that no one offers the spiritual, why does it have to meet your criteria of it? 

I guess because if we are really in the spirit of Love we have convinced ourselves we are in, there would be more oneness and more kindred spirits, rather than the divisiveness that leads to locked threads.  All these roads we're on actually lead to Christ, yes?  And he came as a physical manifestation of the Love of the Father to enable us to also be in that love. 

I guess I could say the same of you on your disagreement with me . . .in fact, that's pretty much the criteria of everyone who chooses to post by reflex due to a difference of opinion.  We all have our own standards of what we think "right" is.  That's been my underlying argument all along.  We assume the responsibility to bring others into correction by enforcing our rightness on others.  And I'm fully aware that I've gotten caught up in these sparring contests myself.  And sometimes, it's just inevidible due to the nature of the conversation. 

And yes, we are human, and we communicate as humans.  In fact that's what Jesus was all about . . .using the "natural" world around him . . .but the emphasis was not on the natural things he "used".  His emphasis was always using the natural things to point to a spiritual truth.  And I'd like to add just one thing to what Taf said about how he things.  Either spiritual or natural . . .but there's yet another dimension that I'd like to throw in that mix . .which is "moral".  It kind of sets inbetween the natural and the spiritual.  So yes, we are natural beings . .but again, we're not to focus on the natural . .if we were, Scripture would not then say that the flesh profits nothing.  It would not then say "rely not on your own understanding".  Stuff like that.

I've not really seen what you're claiming, about other "mystics" thinking they have a better handle . . . one shares what one sees, another shares what they see and the reason why we're seeing differently is because we're coming at it from two differnt perspectives.  But "somebody" always has to feel that because they are different, that someone must be wrong. 

For me, it's not about changing what is different between you and me and making it conform to the same as me . .you've already made that part quite clear that it's not going to happen and I wouldn't want it to.  If I were to be able to conform you, it wouldn't be the true you, it would be my forced image in you.  So why would I want to make you into something you're not.  It is the Spirit's responsibility to transform that part of you, not mine. 

The thing about a working body is, opposite parts are necessary.  You can't function with out opposites.  You HAVE to have a "right" hand to compliment the "left" hand.  They are opposites, but they are still both hands.  It's the same with me when it comes to good and evil . . .everyone is out to separte the two from each other.  But I believe God created both to bring balance to the body.  Yes, I am a physical being . . .but it is my spirit that has been given the authority over my flesh.  And it is the spirit that I choose to pursue. 

Great, your blown away by what you know, cool,  I am blown away by things that I see,  but I do not need you to follow my spirituality to know the spiritual things I do see and share the physical side of things that helped get me there

Again, I apologize that you take this to apparently mean that I'm more spiritual.  For me, if there is a river in you . . .let it flow out.  Maybe knowing how you got to where you are spiritually, would enable me to advance my walk spiritually as well.  Is that not what we're to be doing with each other?  Edifying, building up, supporting, encouraging . .etc.?

about the immortal soul, there is an interesting verse, that almost no english translation seems to translate exactly:

Leviticus 17,14

For [regarding] the soul of all flesh its blood is in its soul, and I said to the children of Israel: You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the soul of any flesh is its blood all who eat it shall be cut off.

i found it translated correct here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/9918/jewish/Chapter-17.htm

that doesnt speak for an immortal soul

(VW) for it is the soul of all flesh. Its blood is its soul. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the soul of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.

(UPDV) For the soul of all flesh is its blood, which is in its living body. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, You+ will eat the blood of no manner of flesh; for the soul of all flesh is its blood: whoever eats it will be cut off.

(Webster)  For it is the life of all flesh, the blood of it is for the life of it; therefore I said to the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is its blood: whoever eateth it shall be cut off.

---

Gen 9:4

(VW) But you shall not eat flesh with its soul, that is, its blood.

(DSV)  Doch het vlees met zijn ziel, dat is zijn bloed, zult gij niet eten.

Soul and life both have the same Hebrew root word

---

5315 נפשׁ nephesh
Meaning:  1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man 1b) living being 1c) living being (with life in the blood) 1d) the man himself, self, person or individual 1e) seat of the appetites 1f) seat of emotions and passions 1g) activity of mind 1g1) dubious 1h) activity of the will 1h1) dubious 1i) activity of the character 1i1) dubious
Origin:  from 05314; TWOT - 1395a; n f
Usage:  AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 45; 751

---

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5314
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395a

Heres a question

If this person spent 23 minutes in hell, how did he get back out if it eternal? :happygrin:

He wasn't judged to be there.
He was there to view as a warning to himself and whole mankind.
Using your kinda logic Heaven isn't eternal either because the people with the Heaven NDEs are back on earth.

A bit like you leaving TentMaker forever. Welcome back :thumbsup:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
Nathan I disagree that no one offers the spiritual, why does it have to meet your criteria of it? 

Quote from: Nathan on December 09, 2008, 02:01:06 AM
I guess because if we are really in the spirit of Love we have convinced ourselves we are in, there would be more oneness and more kindred spirits, rather than the divisiveness that leads to locked threads.  All these roads we're on actually lead to Christ, yes?  And he came as a physical manifestation of the Love of the Father to enable us to also be in that love. 

I'd say a locked thread doesn't mean anything to me but what is perceived by the mods, nothing more, nothing less.  I'd say there is plenty of oneness and kindred spirits, but the problem is that wanting agreement of others seems takes precidence over growth.

I've grown more spiritually when my point of view is challenged. However what happens is the value of that growth is usually measured by people who are only looking at how I react rather than an understanding of where I have come from.

I measure the worth by who grows, who studies, who contemplates, who questions, who desires truth.   I do not measure it by who can feel better about themselves, who can avoid scripture at their convenience, or who can agree with who.  Two people feeling good about each other and their agreement means nothing if they both agree on something that is in error.


I am not saying you are wrong or in error, I am saying that you should continue to seek the spiritual as we all should,  but if I do not see it your way, it does not mean I am not spiritual, it means I am just different.  I do not doubt your spirituality, and most likely you do not doubt mine.   What I do not buy into is that our agreement on anything is any measure of that whatsoever.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2008, 06:01:49 PM
He wasn't judged to be there.
He was there to view as a warning to himself and whole mankind.
Using your kinda logic Heaven isn't eternal either because the people with the Heaven NDEs are back on earth.

A bit like you leaving TentMaker forever. Welcome back :thumbsup:

Hi WW thanks for the welcome back, and you should know by now from reading my rebuttal to Matt Slick that I don't beleive heaven is anymore eternal the hell.

For BOTH are said to be created.

Oh and if he was not judged to be there he would not have been there, for as Lazaras could not cross the gulf how did he.

QuoteOh and if he was not judged to be there he would not have been there, for as Lazaras could not cross the gulf how did he.

I've read the book and this is what I remember from it:
He was there as, lets call it, a tourist.
Jesus was his tourguide. I'm sure that gulf isn't any problem for Jesus to cross.
He experienced it is an unpleasant place but not at the level of those who are living there.
So he wasn't actually on fire.

Quoteand you should know by now from reading my rebuttal to Matt Slick

Matt who? Matt ערוּם  `aruwm  :mrflo:

Quotethat I don't beleive heaven is anymore eternal the hell.
For BOTH are said to be created.

Both created; agreed.
But both not eternal not sure... => I use eternal as never stopping from the point it's created.
I'm not meaning hell is eternally in use but stays eternally.
But I'm just not sure about that. Neither am I sure Heaven is eternally.
By that I don't mean the promised afterlife will end but that it 'moves on'  to something even bigger after a while.

QuoteI've read the book and this is what I remember from it:
He was there as, lets call it, a tourist.
Jesus was his tourguide. I'm sure that gulf isn't any problem for Jesus to cross.
He experienced it is an unpleasant place but not at the level of those who are living there.
So he wasn't actually on fire.

:laughing7: well if he was not on fire he wasn't really in hell. Just remember bro I'm looking at this from an ET perspective, no one can get out of hell. But as he is said to have been there and Jesus was with him and carried him back out of hell, actually goes to prove Universalim. :happygrin:

QuoteBoth created; agreed.
But both not eternal not sure... => I use eternal as never stopping from the point it's created.

I guess you would have to define what heaven means to you. Most seem to think heaven is when Jesus set up His everlasting/eternal kingdom, but as I have sown plenty of times already aionion ALWAYS refers to a limited time period and that Christ give up His throne to the Father show that His reign has come to an end.

QuoteI'm not meaning hell is eternally in use but stays eternally.
But I'm just not sure about that. Neither am I sure Heaven is eternally.
By that I don't mean the promised afterlife will end but that it 'moves on'  to something even bigger after a while.

if I read you right I agree for Jesus came to give us more the eternal life he also came to give us immortal life which is even greater then eternal life as immortal life never comes to and end.

Quote from: pneuma on December 10, 2008, 02:28:28 AM

QuoteI've read the book and this is what I remember from it:
He was there as, lets call it, a tourist.
Jesus was his tourguide. I'm sure that gulf isn't any problem for Jesus to cross.
He experienced it is an unpleasant place but not at the level of those who are living there.
So he wasn't actually on fire.

:laughing7: well if he was not on fire he wasn't really in hell. Just remember bro I'm looking at this from an ET perspective, no one can get out of hell. But as he is said to have been there and Jesus was with him and carried him back out of hell, actually goes to prove Universalim. :happygrin:

I think the book has  slight ET feeling to it  :laughing7:
If I'm not confusing it with another book hell wasn't described as a lake of fire. More like veggie garden with narrow pathways between the carrots and cannabis (the stuff used in the annoiting oil..)
All had diffrent punishments. And that 23 minute guy just walked on the path together with Jesus.
Jesus is an outdoor man so he likes to go out for a walk  :laughing7:

Quote

QuoteBoth created; agreed.
But both not eternal not sure... => I use eternal as never stopping from the point it's created.

I guess you would have to define what heaven means to you. Most seem to think heaven is when Jesus set up His everlasting/eternal kingdom, but as I have sown plenty of times already aionion ALWAYS refers to a limited time period and that Christ give up His throne to the Father show that His reign has come to an end.

No idea how heaven looks. But indeed Jesus kingdom isn't (the final) heaven.
I think after the reign of Jesus things become as before creation (but with humanity). Not sure heaven existed before that. Think not.

Though at 23 I was very little developed, only a disciple of Jesus for around four years, The Good Shepherd came in the night with a large ring of keys and said, "It is time to go now."  After experiencing Cheyne-Stokes respiration, as small vapor in the vast cavernous temple of my body, I was drawn out of my body, but I was being drawn down so I fought as hard as I could.  Then I saw my body across the room from me.  It was kneeling with folded hands at the window looking up with light from heaven shining down on its eyes.  The Spirit of God was in it interceeding.  When I found myself back in my body I realized Who had come for me was the Lord and I had wanted very much to go with Him, so I turned and hit the gates of death which were now closed to me.  Much more concerning this experience as well as a number of others I believe have given me some insight into certain things.

The popular traditional view of heaven and hell is that they are the extreme opposite realms for humanity's abode in death.  The simplistic cartoon version has everybody going to one of them when their spirit leaves their body.  While Scripture indicates bliss and torment for human spirits whose physical aspect is in the grave, it doesn't give much detail.  It seems the Potter continues to develop his charges while the body is dead or humanity is a very sorry lot indeed, impossibly far from the promise of the Divine ideal.  Paradise is the term for the place of blessing, accessible to the living overcomer, and the various words translators have pasted the word hell over refer to their respective meanings.  Denied by some who think the spirit never sleeps (cf., Song of Songs 5:2,) the possibility exists that we may have periods of sleep in our disembodied state.  There is no reason that such words of Scripture as, "The dead know nothing" must be understood to mean there is no consciousness for spirit apart from the body.  It is clearly in agreement with the corpse of a man being unresponsive to whatever may be said or done to it.  That man knows nothing.  Yet his spirit, being elsewhere, may be not in a death state.  Scripture says, Even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead." (James 2:26)  One may have a conviction concerning a conscious belief that goes unexpressed, so we may have a consciousness as spirit apart from the body. 

The spirit may be considered a kind of body.  This is clear from those things said of the Spirit of God.  It has wrongly been called error by some councils to teach that as God has expressed Himself as Son, so also He has expressed Himself as Spirit.  What is unknowable as the Father in expression is called Christ.  Though the agent of that expression is the Spirit, the Spirit itself has self-consciousness.  It is true spiritual substance as the Son is actual physical substance.  So, the spirit itself is a kind of embodiment.  It is more durable than the entirety of our present physical realm.  That is why a spirit may go through a wall.  The wall is insubstantial to it.  Since all will be resurrected "in their own order," all will come out of any abode that might be in death.  "Death will be abolished" is God's sure word, an inconceivably grand proliferation of life toward which we all are hurtling where all realms will become opened to us.

The word "heaven" is slightly more than half the time plural in Scripture.  There are 3 heavens according to 2 Cor 12.  They correspond to the 3 dimensions in which we exist: spirit (at least when regenerated,where peculiarly God's presence is,) soul (the psychical realm,) and body (earth's atmosphere to the distant galaxies.)  Jesus has passed through all the heavens (Hb 4:14) and rests up over all in the right of the Great All-Togetherness upon High (Hb 1:3.) While we are joined to Him there in ascension, we are undergoing a process with His Spirit sharing the same body in union with Him down into death and through resurrection to come into the demonstration of ascension.

God's purpose for us is not a better place in death but victory over death.  The phrase "go to heaven" never occurs in the Bible in relation to anything.  According to Jesus, heaven and earth will pass away, though His word will remain.  God's purpose is to bring forth the image and similitude of God in humanity.  Whether apparently successful or a failure by man's reckoning, whether in enjoyable surroundings subject to our own wills or in horrible conditions as a prisoner, our identity is not to be determined by our circumstances which we rise above.  A jewel in the garbage remains beautiful and precious.  A piece of junk displayed on blue velvet is still ugly and worthless.   God existed without any environment and His sanctifying work is creating a man whose nature is not determined by where he is but arises from within, from that union with the Divine nature as we partake of Him, being progressively conformed to Him in all things.  Where we are headed is into The Perfect Man, into the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.  In the light from The Unveiling of this Image all things will be revealed.  This Perfect Man is the inheritor of all things.


your brother, James M. Rohde

Hey Taffy,

I think your response to Paul hazelwood earlier "if you dont like it, then leave", was inappropiate for a moderator. You should not let your personal views cloud your roll as a moderator. It is obvious that you agree with nathan's views, but not everyone does. I personally do not.

It has been my experience, that those who assume themselves at a higher spiritual level than others are generally feeding their own egos and have forgotten humility (I dont mean you, merely a blanket statement).

Knowledge and revelation are not the best measures of spirituality. Love,humility and patience are better measures.

At peace

Quote from: At peace on December 10, 2008, 10:41:05 AM
Hey Taffy,

I think your response to Paul hazelwood earlier "if you dont like it, then leave", was inappropiate for a moderator. You should not let your personal views cloud your roll as a moderator. It is obvious that you agree with nathan's views, but not everyone does. I personally do not.

It has been my experience, that those who assume themselves at a higher spiritual level than others are generally feeding their own egos and have forgotten humility (I dont mean you, merely a blanket statement).

Knowledge and revelation are not the best measures of spirituality. Love,humility and patience are better measures.

At peace

Wow if you never get angry , than you have a right to judge   :icon_flower:

Good for you , how blessed and above  so many   you are !
  above me for sure  :thumbsup:
  but if you had read all the posts you would see  Taffy apologized to all , for getting angry ?  even Paul , Paul accepted ?
  Forgiveness is just as Important repentance  with Jesus Christ's salvation

  being a mod on this forum , is a tough job , I would never attempt , there are things behind the scenes that go on , most never even have a clue about
  and If you have ever  been a mod you would also have more understanding in  this area
  we all suffer and we all have anger issues and feelings get hurt all the time 
but without room for  loving  forgiveness  what is the point of  trying to follow Christ in the first place ?   
  God bless ...

Quote from: At peace on December 10, 2008, 10:41:05 AM
Hey Taffy,

I think your response to Paul hazelwood earlier "if you dont like it, then leave", was inappropiate for a moderator. You should not let your personal views cloud your roll as a moderator. It is obvious that you agree with nathan's views, but not everyone does. I personally do not.

It has been my experience, that those who assume themselves at a higher spiritual level than others are generally feeding their own egos and have forgotten humility (I dont mean you, merely a blanket statement).

Knowledge and revelation are not the best measures of spirituality. Love,humility and patience are better measures.

At peace

Hi At Peace :icon_flower:
By all means your entitled to veiw the situation as it seemed , but in truth very little is.

If you  Have noticed ,I have made an Open apology to all ,who may have well taken my comments personally, that too includes you

What you may not realise my comment wasnt Directly aimed at Paul , it was a Generalization of those who may be in the Minority being ousted by the Majority, as my friend , having  seen this happen on several occasions when some dont agree with others,  the Many out do the few, hence me noting , dont" some come from the Closet when the the Benchmark has been set by some others", Or didnt you notice that thread I closed concerning the on going Free will theme?

It was out hope to allow liberty to the utmost but

Since  , a New announcment has been made in the Hope it EASE all what goes On behind the scenes you may not even Understand.

May I suggest if you do have a Problem with me or any other mod , then please feel free to pm :icon_flower:


I for one are found wanting many times

Blessings
Taffy

Hi  AtPeace,


For the record, it was not Nathans beliefs that was at issue, that seemed to have been missed completely by everyone, but I will take the blame for that.   For that misunderstanding I apologize. And I apologize to you AtPeace for acting in a manner that has caused you to see a problem that is not really there now either.

As requested I will from now on address an issue like this privately should it occur again.

QuoteWow if you never get angry , than you have a right to judge   

Good for you , how blessed and above  so many   you are !
  above me for sure   

Rosered, your comments were completely uncalled for and very hurtful. I find it amazing that when I first starting posting here, you sent me a very kind personal massege, and now you write this. I was simply and honestly expressing an opinion, without hurtful language, it is a shame that I misjudged your character.  :sigh:

Taffy, your response was very cordial and appreciated, by such a response, you truly show your maturity in christ. I obviously misjudged you.

Paul, you have nothing to apologize for.

When I first came to tentmaker, I did not read the forums much. I stuck to reading the articles, I see now that I should have continued doing so. I have recently read many of the past and current forum posts. Since I have not posted much, I think of myself as rather objective, choosing not to involve myself in any of the ongoing discussions, until now. It is a shame that a person cannot post their honest opinion without being attacted by a small minority of posters who believe themselves to be above the rest. What I have noticed is that this small group of people, who share a very esoteric and mystical view. Full of allegorizations and personal thoughts, will attack as a group anyone who dares to disagree with them. The attack can be very subtle, such as sarcasm or condensation, or very aggresive, at times.

It seems that anyone who wishes to share a more traditional view, is soundly demeaned.

This brings me to the matter of SOTW.

After only reading two posts, I came across a very disturbing post by SOTW. I immediately assumed him the culprit, due to what I percieved as very hurtful words by him. I interjected, hoping with respect, to show him his error, but after reading the majority of past and current posts, I now realize, he was a victim of the above mentioned bahavior.

His early posts were very calm and respectful, but met with very subtle and purposeful sarcasm and condensation. This behavior increased, and so did his responses. If you carefully read through his posts, you will see his frustration and disallusionment build up. His more traditional (and in my opinion solid views) were drowned in a sea sarcasm. He eventually lashed out at everyone, even the innocent, but that was brought to fruition in him, by a small group of posters, who appeared to take pleasure in their condensation of others.

This forum has the potential for greatness. There are many here, who I have learned a great deal from. But, in my opinion, as it currently stands, strife is the order of the day for anyone who wishes to honestly and respectfully disagree.

To quote the venurable scholar and historian Rodney King "Cant we all just get along."  :laughing7: :happygrin:

At peace

Edit: excuse the misspellings, I wrote this at 4 am.

Quote from: At peace on December 11, 2008, 12:31:00 PM

QuoteWow if you never get angry , than you have a right to judge   

Good for you , how blessed and above  so many   you are !
  above me for sure   

Rosered, your comments were completely uncalled for and very hurtful. I find it amazing that when I first starting posting here, you sent me a very kind personal massege, and now you write this. I was simply and honestly expressing an opinion, without hurtful language, it is a shame that I misjudged your character.  :sigh:

At peace

Hi At peace ,

  Look i am sorry  but I was  also being honest , what is wrong with the expessing truth as you know it ?

 
you say how you feel and I did as well  ,
you are blessed if you never become angry, 
for me I have anger  issues at times .
the Truth is not always some sweet  gooey  fluffy treat ,
  It is brutal  at times , but  as many times I have been chastened by the Lord I KNOW it is for my own good  or anyones for that matter .

  peace, at  Peace   I meant no harm , just being honest , I am not a vain flatterer  to anyone 
I hate that and hate seeing it anyone especially me   :thumbsup:
and that  is  the only one i can do anything about

  your opinion , got a response from me , thats all  :dontknow:

  you had mine and I am sorry it hurt you  but  we must express 
our thoughts ,


thoughts , they come and go ,  forgive me 
I have already let  mine go about this 
God love you at peace always .. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 18, 2008, 08:53:31 AM
What do universalists make of this testimony? Does it serve as a witness or no?

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdugdTIS74&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CRRqH-Fmk&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_JZo0Pbhk&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsKp9AVlC0&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKEpuOfBRE&feature=related
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOtx0cJlhU&feature=related
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxKHoR9mZg&feature=related
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6XBzloxY&feature=related

the way he portrays Hell sounds like the way they portray it on South Park!

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 18, 2008, 08:53:31 AM
What do universalists make of this testimony? Does it serve as a witness or no?

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdugdTIS74&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CRRqH-Fmk&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_JZo0Pbhk&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsKp9AVlC0&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKEpuOfBRE&feature=related
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOtx0cJlhU&feature=related
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxKHoR9mZg&feature=related
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6XBzloxY&feature=related

those videos are private now.

Bill Wiese is a liar. He quotes numerous scriptures throughout his book, most of which are completely irrelevant to what he is talking about. He continually grabs short phrases and sentences out the Bible and quotes them without showing you the context of the phrase, which makes it easy for him to read his own assumptions into it (yes, I actually looked up every single scripture he cites). The majority of Christians in modern America do not diligently read their Bibles anymore, which makes them easy prey for this kind of con job. But his bizarre fantastic story outrightly contradicts the Bible many times. Luke 16:27-31 (the Lord's parable of the rich man and Lazarus) says, "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Our Lord Himself is very clear that if men reject the Gospel, and they refuse to listen to those who proclaim the Word of God, they will never be persuaded, even if someone came back from the dead to witness to them—something even more miraculous than Wiese's alleged experience. Wiese himself specifically says, "One thing I was sure of: if what I had experienced was true, then I should be able to find proof of it in the Bible"; and, "I discovered that there are approximately 150 verses that reveal some aspect of hell, together confirming everything I had experienced." However, he does not even attempt to back up many of his claims from Scripture, such as deformed reptilian demons and big rats and spiders in hell. He cites many scriptures about demons attacking people on earth, but he never provides a shred of proof that demons can torment people in hell. And Wiese himself states that if he can't prove it from the Bible, then it is not true. Please see my review of "23 Minutes in Hell" at www.geocities.com/spiritualliberty/23MinutesInHellReview.html.

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on December 21, 2008, 01:22:05 AM

Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on August 18, 2008, 08:53:31 AM
What do universalists make of this testimony? Does it serve as a witness or no?

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdugdTIS74&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CRRqH-Fmk&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_JZo0Pbhk&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsKp9AVlC0&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKEpuOfBRE&feature=related
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOtx0cJlhU&feature=related
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxKHoR9mZg&feature=related
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6XBzloxY&feature=related

those videos are private now.

Now they're back OTTP

OTTP? What does that mean?

Quote from: Andromeda_Organa on December 23, 2008, 05:30:01 PM
OTTP? What does that mean?

Open To The Public