23 Minutes in hell, a witness or no?

[Andromeda_Organa]

All I know is that when I picked up this book at a Christian bookstore, I could feel the Lord bidding me not to read it.

Hi Andromeda ! 
there is alot of theings
  I dont handle  taste and touch  anylonger .. :mblush: :msealed:
   Like Paul  taught  here .
Wherefore if you e be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are you  subject to ordinances,


Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;


Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

  I had to learn whjat teaching/ doctrine of men was first! :sigh:

   Like this fellow is teaching / preaching  :thumbdown:
  But sometimes the Lord does use fear to  make us wake up out of sleep /death  mode of thinking
   Spiritually speaking here

hUH? I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

[rosered]

 
Sorry about that sis , I get alot of that  :sigh:
  I just meant that I dont  go for alot of reading outside the Bible it self  these days
  thats all I was trying to say  :mblush:

   I  apologize for my incoherence .

[Shadow]

What do universalists make of this testimony? Does it serve as a witness or no?

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdugdTIS74&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CRRqH-Fmk&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_JZo0Pbhk&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsKp9AVlC0&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKEpuOfBRE&feature=related
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOtx0cJlhU&feature=related
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxKHoR9mZg&feature=related
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6XBzloxY&feature=related

No it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

Ti 6:14  That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality
1Ti 1:17  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

(http://www.storesonline.com/images/sotemplates/t104/header.img?label.text=Chapter%2016%20%20%20%20%20THE%20FIRST%20LIE%20OF%20SATAN%20-%20%27YOU%20WILL%20NOT%20SURELY%20DIE%27)

http://www.godoftheages.com/site/1351515/page/686554

[DeeDee]

No it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

Don't you believe our souls are immortal? Do you believe in annihilation?

[Shadow]

No it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

Don't you believe our souls are immortal? Do you believe in annihilation?

Do you think we have an immortal soul?

Did you read the scriptures I quoted as well as the link I posted(which is David and Zoe Sulems book - God's plan for all

1Ti 6:13  I charge thee, before God, who is making all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who did testify before Pontius Pilate the right profession,
1Ti 6:14  that thou keep the command unspotted, unblameable, till the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Ti 6:15  which in His own times He shall shew--the blessed and only potentate, the King of the kings and Lord of the lords,
1Ti 6:16  who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during!

Hell's teaching is based on the immortality of the soul

Here is another link

http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_do_you_have_an_immortal_soul.htm

Yes, I would say at this point, I believe in annihilation more than UR, that doesn't mean I want to, but I haven't had UR confirmed to me 100% yet, however ET doesn't make sense at all, as it would mean that God either planned or allowed humans would come to existence, knowing what their fate would be (if that were true), and that doesn't make sense :sigh:

[sven]

No it isn't a witness as it promotes the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul

Don't you believe our souls are immortal? Do you believe in annihilation?

i dont believe in an immortal soul as well, but this doesnt condradict universalism

this is great stuff i think:

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/index.html

[DeeDee]

Universalism means that oneday we all land up with God. As in everything God made goes back to him. Then no more pain and death and suffering etc. - Then eternal life with our eternal souls. What do you guys believe? That we just die and its over? Or that we live again but only for a while?

[Shadow]

I'll keep searching for the answer

[sven]

What do you guys believe? That we just die and its over? Or that we live again but only for a while?

i would say resurrection of the body, with immortal bodies one day

[Paul Hazelwood]

There is a fine line on our immortality.


We do not inherantly have it.


1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1Ti 6:16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!

It must be given to us.


2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

1C 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1C 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

1C 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


The difference is the wording.  We do not have immortality as it being an inherant part of our existance.   God has it and it will be put upon us, but it does not say that it will be then inherant to us.

If annihilation is correct, then that is permanant death, death cannot be swallowed up  victory, death would be the victor.

[Nathan]

No, I don't see that at all.  I am whole.  The only thing I live in that's temporary is this tent of skin.  Soul and spirit . . . I don't see where either are mortal.  I believe imortality came in when I was conceived.  This body of flesh is mortal, but my spirit and soul are not.

Shadow, I can't help but see your sadness when sharing your conclusions.  If Christ truly is the abundant life he says he is, how can there then be sadness in anything?  To wish to be nonexistant than to exist and then die . . .neither one of those manifest life and light.  I'd be sad to if I believed that way.  But look at your reaction . . .that alone should indicate that there's no truth to it. 

My soul is my personality, it's what makes me unique to all other people.  One of the most precious things about God is that he becomes "personal" to all of us, on "our" level of awareness and relationship.  He's not cloning us into "one" robotic body.  That's the beauty of 1 Corinthians 12.  So many emphasize the gifts of the spirit, when the message is also speaking of how we who are so different from each other, are given the miracle of becoming "one" with each other through the Spirit.  We don't lose our uniqueness, we actually become stronger "because of" our differences . . .when we are properly aligned from within. 

Which then leads us to the next issue . . .if that's the case, then why are there so many divisions between people rather than unity?  For me, it's because so many are not living according to the spirit, but according to their flesh.  Natural reasoning is what divides.  Knowledge of Good and evil is such a huge stronghold because of it's misinterpretations of the reasoning mind.

So many seem to embrace this when the original instruction was that we were not to eat of it.  Why was it so bad for man to know right from wrong?  Obviously, it to was created by God.  It to was "in" the garden.  It's almost like that old cliche of "don't push the red button"  in every scenerio, somebody ALWAYS ends up pushing the button. 

In the garden, so long as they lived off the trees provided, including the tree of life which was also the centerpiece of the garden, knowing good and evil was never a concern.  The garden is the realm of the spirit.  When we walk in the spirit . . .knowing good and evil is not our concern.  Why?  Because when we are in the spirit, we are already withing the boundaries of good and evil.  But when we eat from the knowledge, we've just cut off the umbilical chord of the spirit.  We've separated ourselves from our parent. 

It's a heavy weapon to carry, this knowledge of good and evil.  Jesus carried it.  He's the only one that could carry the weapon and never actually use it on anyone.  He had every opportunity.  Judas is the most glaring, but I'm sure every one of the disciples deserved a personal "time-out" from Jesus as he would need to pull them aside, explain where they screwed up and encourage them not to do it anymore.  But he never did.  He knew full well Judas was a cheat, but yet, he let him be their treasurer.  How many churches would have allowed "that" to continue?

Spirit - soul - flesh . . .that's the original order where the anointing flows freely. 
Soul - flesh - spirit . . .that's what Adam changed within him, the order of God.
Ararat = The curse is reversed . . . that's where God brought Noah (means rest) in the ark (Christ).  He reversed the order in us so that the river of life could flow again.

So we have an advantage that no men before us had.  We have even a greater advantage than those in the New Testament.  Why?  Because we have their history to fall back on and learn from.  They didn't.  They were the first generation.  They were it.  They were infants.  And that's who Scripture was written to, and for.  I don't want to remain in the same spiritual state as the first generation of believers.  I don't want to take the baby food written for them and continue to live literally by it today.

I want to be led by the spirit, not by the letter of the Word.  It is the Spirit that wrote the word, not the Word that justified the Spirit.  Read it?  Absolutely.  Study it?  yup.  Apply it?  not a problem.  Enforce it?  Heavens NO. Live by it?  no again.  Why?  Because the Word is written IN MY HEART.  To conform to what's written on paper stunts the growth of what God want's to do in my heart.  It's a frame . .it's not the final say.

What does all of this have to do with the original thought of whether my soul is mortal or imortal? 

To take a tangible written verse and interpret it literally is one, taking it out of context (by about 2,000 years) and two, embracing baby food.  And my mind is the major component that does that.  My natural reasoning is my interpretor.  The very thing that is at enmity against God, is what I use to draw my conclusions "about" God.  And in doing so, there will ALWAYS be a difference of opinion.  And there's nothing wrong with having a difference of opinion.  The evidence of the soul leading the spirit comes when what I say is questioned by another and I do two things.  One, I demand proof.  Which is not a good sign at all due to the fact that we live by "faith".  And secondly, I feel responsible to "defend" my beliefs.

The mind is self-centered.  When it's confronted, it immediately goes into a defensive posture to protect itself.  If we're led by the spirit, the mind is already in submission and no offense is given or received.  The Word "is" Spirit when it's not interpreted through the reasoning of the mind.  Spirit plants seeds of life into the mind, the mind then births that seed into it's understanding and maturity of truth results within the nature of the body.

How on earth did I end up way over here?

Oh . . .the soul and spirit . .. they are both immortal.

Okay . . fire away!

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree we are immortal, I simply believe it is important to know the nature of it.

The picture that the scripture shows me is that we are not God.  We do not possess immortality unless it is given to us.

I think that is important to know because it is a picture of Gods character and promise. 

If God is love then our immortality cannot be given to us for eternal torment unless Gods character is contradictory to LOVE and God giving immortality contradicts annihilation.

[Nathan]

At what point is immortality given to us?

[Paul Hazelwood]

At what point is immortality given to us?

Thats a good question.  I am not sure I know exactly.

[WhiteWings]

I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

[Nathan]

I agree we are immortal, I simply believe it is important to know the nature of it.

Why is this significant to debate?  Whether it's given or . . .what?  How else would we have our imortality?  How would we have the breath we have had it first not been given?  How would we be able to comprehend without being "given" a mind to comprehend with?

For me, especially now that I see the end of both believers and unbelievers to have the same destination, I believe whether you accept Christ or not, you are immortal . . .your spirit and soul . . .your body "becomes" imortal at the resurrection of all things . . .your soul matures into imortality . .. even though imortality is something it already has, it just doesn't have the infinite ability to grasp what that means.  But as we mature in Truth, understanding "becomes" clearer.  As to whether or not we'll ever be able to grasp the magnitude of that truth while still in these limited bodies is debatible.  And my spirit is without question already immortal.  I believe it was imortal before it was made manifest in the womb of my mother.  The reason why I see it that way is because we "are" sent from God who is spirit, to manifest on this earth . .when we die, our spirit's return to God or sent them . . .Ecclesiastes 12.

6 Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don't wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. 7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

[Nathan]

I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and soul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

[Taffy]

I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and sRom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. oul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

You still being Brief.....

The enmity( hatred)Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

is the soul( paul Calls Flesh) which Nat speaks of, that Is ,the Heart and Mind being  DEAD to Christ.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace( Christ In US). 

We now being Renewed with a NEW heart and Mind enabling us to see beyond the Veil ....

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;  Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

:icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and soul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

[Nathan]

quote author=Taffy link=topic=3173.msg40774#msg40774 date=1228404070]

I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and sRom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. oul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

You still being Brief.....

The enmity( hatred)Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

is the soul( paul Calls Flesh) which Nat speaks of, that Is ,the Heart and Mind being  DEAD to Christ.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace( Christ In US). 

We now being Renewed with a NEW heart and Mind enabling us to see beyond the Veil ....

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;  Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

:icon_flower:
[/quote]

:goodone:

[Nathan]

I hope I got it right:

Human=Body+Soul+Spirit
Animal=Body+Soul

Body=flesh
Soul=life force/be alive
Spirit=wat sets us apart from animals

Soul and body die.
Spirit never dies and after death goes back to God.


Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So see the soul as an interface between our brain and spirit.

For me, there is a differentiation between the soul that is carnality, and the soul that is your mind.  They are two different dimensions at seeing one character.  I know that may sound confusing.  Let me ask you this . . .if I am to have the mind of Christ, then how can that die?  How can this mind that has been renewed in and with an immortal resurrection turn around and die?  I still think my mind is my personality and it does mature and change and transform and get renewed . . .but I don't think it ever dies. 

I think it is also the bottomless pit . .it never sleeps, there's no end to it's activity, even when I sleep, it continues.  If my brain stops . . .all that means is my mind stops manifesting in this body.  My brain is not my mind, it's simply a miracle of the flesh that the mind can manifest in.

If Adam is my spirit . . .and Eve is my mind . . .God joined them together with a pronouncement what what he has joined together, can not be separated.  Which again, to me is saying, my spirit and my soul are one and if one is eternal, the other then must be as well.  When I leave this body, I will return to it . . .which is interesting in and of itself.  Why doesn't God just give us a new body?  Instead, he transforms the old one.

At any rate, if my brain is my mind as you say . . .then when I die, my mind goes . .where?  Just . . . vanishes as though it never was?

The separation of spirit and soul in Hebrews speaks to me of what is pure and what is defiled.  What is spirit and what is carnal.  Not so much what is literal . . . the Bible does not separate my brain from my spirit . . .but the message (word) of life separates . . .this actually sounds exactly like the same thing the lake of fire does . . and hell does . .it separates the carnality in us from the purity of His spirit in us.

For me, the carnal, that they say is the body, and the natural that they say is the soul, I think is turned around.  For me, the body is natural things and the mind is carnal reasoning.

My blueprint is the tabernacle of Moses.  The outer court is the body, the holy place is the laboring mind and the holy of holies is the realm of spiritual rest.  And one of the indicators for me is how each of these divisions in the tabernacle are lit . . .as everything derives from light.  In the outer court, it's illuminated by NATURAL sunlight.  1st dimension.  In the holy place, it's illuminated by CULTIVATED light by way of priests supplying oil, trimming the wick, keeping the fire burning for without their assistance, it would eventually starve itself out.  Much like how the mind works, if we don't fill it with heavenly thoughts, it will consume us with the carnality, the darkness of our circumstances.

And thirdly, which is always most important above all . . .the holy of holies is illuminated by God's presence and glory . . .actually, the light is evidence of his glory . .it's his glory manifesting.  But regardless of what you call it, it's all spiritual and requires no work or assistance of men.  3rd dimensional awareness does not come from knowing the historical background, (1st dimension) it does not come from mental manipulation or natural reasoning (2 dimension) but only through revelation from the Father "through" the Son. 

Spirit . . .soul . . .then body.  when we change or divert the order in any other way than this, we cut off the ability for the river to flow in, or out of us.  The hardest thing for my mind to do is accept something that it doesn't understand.  But that's what faith is.  Relying on Biblical proof, only strokes the ego of the mind through reasoning . . .but faith is seeing what literally isn't there.  It's a whole new ball game.

[At peace]

The hardest thing for my mind to do is accept something that it doesn't understand.  But that's what faith is.  Relying on Biblical proof, only strokes the ego of the mind through reasoning . . .but faith is seeing what literally isn't there.  It's a whole new ball game.

Hey Nathan,

The Problem is that without biblical proof, you can develop faith in something that is not really from God. Without grounding our thoughts in scripture, we can create an allegory for any story or instance in the bible and each come up with different conclusions.

The bible speaks to our hearts through the spirit, therefore:

2Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness..."

Nathan, we must be able to back up with scripture whatever revelation the spirit has given us, otherwise these revelations could easily be the concoctions of our own imagination.

The scripture is the final word, for it is God breathed, if a position cannot be scripturally backed, then it could easily be the position of the person and not of God.

I write this to you, because it is evident how much you yearn for God and are learning from him.

With love,
At peace

[Nathan]

I wonder if Cornelius would appreciate that kind of thinking . . .I'll only step out if the Bible supports me . . . Peter went not because he had a vision and then check the bible for validation, but because he recognized the voice from within. 

I'm not saying make up your own way and throw out the Bible.  I'm saying the Bible is written "in your heart" and as such, there doesn't need to be so much power put into a written translation that may or may not be saying what my mind thinks it is saying.  I take it into much consideration, but it's not the final say  .. . "if" my head leans in and disrupts truth in me, I gotta believe that there is a coverage of grace in areas where I do mess up.  The over all intent is not to create my own religion, but to walk down the road that's been prepared ahead of me.  The Bible points "to" the Word . . .but I don't see it as the final word.

[rosered]

  Hi Nate , I got alot out of what you have shared and  we basically think alot the same way  :thumbsup: you just ''flow'' alot better than me ..hee hee
  I am very blessed by your thoughts /posts ,
   and I for one am so glad you share  what  treasures are in your heart  :HeartThrob:

  God love ya bro ..rose

[Nathan]

Thanks for the warmness Rose . . .I love to read the stuff you and Taf come up with . . .seriously, you have some truly deep things in you and it's so cool to feel the refreshing take place as a result of just a phrase or two from you. 

I guess I can't argue to much to those who push back a little in some areas.  After rereading the things I wrote, it does sound a bit contrary, but I still wouldn't change what was written because I "do" believe it to be true . . . just not comfortable.

But I think God wants us to be TOTALLY dependant on HIM rather than the translated letters of anointing.  I think also of Abraham . . . the law stated clearly that by no means was a person to sacrifice another human being . . .and yet . . .there goes Abe off in the bush with his boy and a knife . . . Just how confident are you that it's God's voice speaking to you through those pages?  Doesn't matter though . . .confidence isn't all that healthy of a quality to have when it comes to spiritual matters.  It's hard to be confident and humble at the same time.  Humility is the result of an open heart and mind.  Always willing to receive and only give when the opportunity is there . .nothing is forced.

Blessings guys.