23 Minutes in hell, a witness or no?

[arcticmonster2003]

What do universalists make of this testimony? Does it serve as a witness or no?

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HdugdTIS74&feature=related
Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1CRRqH-Fmk&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_JZo0Pbhk&feature=related
Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFsKp9AVlC0&feature=related
Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwKEpuOfBRE&feature=related
Part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOtx0cJlhU&feature=related
Part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bxKHoR9mZg&feature=related
Part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agS6XBzloxY&feature=related

[martincisneros]

I'm on something approximating dial-up until I can get more power around the end of the month, so an 8 part video presentation would be a nightmare for me right now, but if your post approximates asking us if we'll take personal testimonies over what we believe the Scriptures to teach, then of course not.  Let God be true and every man a liar.  The Bible's first priority and final authority.

[firstborn888]

The following is a response to a friend who asked me a question about Bill's story:

Anthony,

You asked me if I'd read all 150 scripture that Bill Wiese gave to prove his 'vision' was from God.

First Bill refers to Paul's catching up to prove his own 'catching down' saying:

(quote) "Some Christians have said, "Oh a Christian can't leave his body." But that's not true, In 2 Corinthians 12:2, when Paul was caught up into the third heaven, He said, "whether in the body, or out of the body I do not know." (end quote)

Okay, fine.

But then he refers to Jonah:

(quote)"And In Jonah 2:6 it says, "the earth with her bars was about me forever, yet thou has brought up my life from corruption." So at least there was somebody in the Bible that experienced Hell, Jonah". (end quote)

Of course you and I know that the KJV translates "Sheol" as ' the grave', 'the pit' and 'hell'.

" I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction,
And He answered me.
" Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.

Was not Jonah speaking metaphorically here? ie: " I was as good as dead"?
Later Bill claims "The earth with her bars" confirms the literal bars on his prison cell in 'hell'.

Then Bill quotes Job 17:16 to further confirm his assigned prison cell in 'hell' had literal bars. Again, it's clear to me that Job was speaking of the grave in a generic sense:

NRS: Will it go down to the bars of Sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?"

NIV "Will it go down to the gates of death? Will we descend together into the dust?"

amp"[My hope] shall go down to the bars of Sheol (the unseen state) when once there is rest in the dust. "

Bill is cherry picking to try and give his vision some credibility.

To prove 'cells' or 'rooms' he quotes Prov. 7: 26

"For she has cast down many wounded,
And all who were slain by her were strong men.
27 Her house is the way to hell (Sheol - the grave)
Descending to the chambers of death".

Bill just plays on people's (and his own) ignorance concerning the generic state of death by using the KJV rendering of 'Sheol - the grave - the unseen' as the English word 'hell'.

He goes on to state how strong the demons were and how weak he was:

(Quote) "The one picked me up, and the other one, with his razor-sharp claws; he just shredded my flesh right off. He just tore it off, and had absolutely no care what so ever for this body that God so wonderfully made. It had a hatred that was so intense against me. I wondered, "Why am I alive, why am I living through this? I don't understand why am I not dead." My flesh just hung there in ribbons. And there was no blood, just flesh hanging, because life is in the blood, and there is no life in Hell. And there is no water in Hell.

In Isaiah 14:9-10 it says

Hell (the grave) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?

Psalms 88:4

I am counted with those who go down to the pit; I am like a man who has no strength, (end Quote)

Of course dead men no longer have strength. Sheeeesh Bill!

Then he talks about the cussing and profanities in 'hell'

(Quote) The profanities, that they were cursing at God is mentioned in Ezekiel 22-26 "I am profaned among them"

Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. (end quote)

Clearly this passage has NOTHING to do with cussing or what we call profanity.

Then he explains the scriptural-ness of the demons ripping his flesh off by quoting Micah 3:2

" 1 Hear now, O heads of Jacob,
And you rulers of the house of Israel:
Is it not for you to know justice?
2 You who hate good and love evil;
Who strip the skin from My people,[a]
And the flesh from their bones;
3 Who also eat the flesh of My people,
Flay their skin from them,
Break their bones,
And chop them in pieces
Like meat for the pot,
Like flesh in the caldron."

This is obvious metaphorical speech of how the leaders were taking advantage of the masses at that time (same as today!)

Then he talks about the humiliation you endure in the afterlife:

(quote) There are scriptures about the humiliation you have to endure. "This thing is going to run my life, I can't stop it!" In Isaiah 5:14-15

Therefore my people have gone into captivity, Because they have no knowledge; Their honorable men are famished, And their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore the grave enlarges its appetite and opens its mouth without limit; into it will descend their nobles and masses with all their brawlers and revelers. So man will be brought low and mankind humbled, the eyes of the arrogant humbled.

Ezekiel 32:24

There is Elam and all her multitude, All around her grave, All of them slain, fallen by the sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, Who caused their terror in the land of the living; Now they bear their shame with those who go down to the Pit.

On and on it goes. That was a horrible thing, to have your life run by these creatures, that have no mercy for you whatsoever.
(end quote)

Again, he uses all this to claim demonic 'creatures' are ruling in 'hell'.

Then he claims Psalms written by David to confirm the darkness in 'hell'

(quote) "I looked one direction, all black, and all I heard was screams, billions of people screaming in this place. I knew there were billions, and it was so loud. If you have ever heard someone scream before, it is so annoying. Well if you hear billions of people screaming, you can't imagine how it affects your mind. You just can't stand it. You hold your ears because it is so loud and penetrating. You can't get away from the screams.

And the fear that overcomes you is unbelievable. Everything is dominated by fear. There is no presence of God in this place, so you have to endure the fear and the torment and the blackness. You can't see anything. You can't even see what is coming up against you.

Scripture talks about this darkness in Psalms 88:6 "You have laid me in the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths". (end quote)

Again, David is speaking about his trials here and totally contradicts Bill's application in another Psalm "If I make my bed in Sheol, YOU (God) are there"

Then he talks about how desolate it is:

(Quote) "I was now outside the cell and I looked this direction and as I looked this way I could see there was flames of fire, about 10 miles away from me. I knew it was 10 miles. And a pit of fire, about 3 miles across, had flames that lit up the skyline enough to see the landscape of Hell just a little bit.

The darkness was so heavy; it just eats up any light. But there was enough to just see some of the skyline. It was all brown and desolate! I mean absolutely not one green leaf, not anything of life of any kind, just stone, dirt and black sky, and smog in the skylight. The flames were really high, so I could see it. There was a scripture in Deuteronomy 29:23

The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.

There is no life whatsoever in Hell. It is so strange to be in a world where there is no life. Here we enjoy trees and fresh air, but there it is absolutely all dead. (end quote)

In context we see this passage has absolutely nothing to do with the afterlife:

Deuteronomy 29:20-25 (New King James Version)

20 "The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven. 21 And the LORD would separate him from all the tribes of Israel for adversity, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this Book of the Law, 22 so that the coming generation of your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, would say, when they see the plagues of that land and the sicknesses which the LORD has laid on it:
23 'The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.' 24 All nations would say, 'Why has the LORD done so to this land? What does the heat of this great anger mean?' 25 Then people would say: 'Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt;

Bill speaks of heat:

(quote) The heat was so intense, you can even describe it. It says in Deuteronomy 32:24

They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. (end quote)

About water he says

(quote) Regarding the water, in Zechariah 9:11,

...I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Absolutely no water in Hell. (end quote)

Concerning hopelessness he says

(quote) This is the worse thing about Hell, that there was absolutely no hope of ever getting out. I understood that. I grasped eternity. I could understand eternity. Here on earth, we can't quite, can't get a hold of it. But there I understood it. I knew I would be there forever and ever, and had no hope of getting out. Even people in concentration camps had a hope of getting out, or dying at least, to get out of it. But we've never experienced a totally hopeless situation. In Isaiah 38:18 it says,

"Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth." (end quote)

Again Anthony, read the context.

15 " What shall I say?
He has both spoken to me,
And He Himself has done it.
I shall walk carefully all my years
In the bitterness of my soul.
16 O Lord, by these things men live;
And in all these things is the life of my spirit;
So You will restore me and make me live.
17 Indeed it was for my own peace
That I had great bitterness;
But You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption,
For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
18 For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth.
19 The living, the living man, he shall praise You,
As I do this day;
The father shall make known Your truth to the children.
20 " The LORD was ready to save me;
Therefore we will sing my songs with stringed instruments
All the days of our life, in the house of the LORD."

This passage is simply making the case for remaining alive to praise God, as there is no work or thought or knowledge in the grave (Sheol) where man goes.

Bill just twists every scripture to fit his unscriptural description of the afterlife.

So, you ask - did I read all 150 scriptures he gave? NO! The few I read were enough to see what this 'experience' was all about.

Ancient demonic pagan underworld mythology.

blessings,
- Byron

[B_T]

Bill Wiese bases his vision on Old Testament scriptures. Oh, come on, Artic, grow up. You perfectly know that the doctrine of hell is not an OT doctrine. Jewish people perfectly know this and they know that everlasting torment is not in their scriptures.

[Average_Bear]

I've shared this before, but it's worth repeating - It was Bill W.'s testimony which (ironically) led me out of the darkness and helped me to discover UR. I didn't read the whole book, but I listened to and read his testimony and it scared the hell out of me - literally. For the first time, I feared that I was on my way to hell. Being an evangelical for 20 years, I had never given hell much thought, but this got my attention. To make matters worse, I had begun attending an AG church, which pushes hell much more than the more liberal, evangelical denominations which I been aquianted with. I was so terrified, I couldn't sleep well for several weeks - I had visions of hell - including visions of myself in hell. I prayed, I cried, I read the Bible to see how I could avoid hell - but nothing brought me any peace or resolution. I searched the web, I did searches on hell, salvation, heaven, etc. This did nothing but confused me more - who knew there were so many different ideas on how to get saved? What if I picked the wrong one!! :omg: Eventually, I stumbled upon L Ray Smith's website and read it with great interest. I resisted it a first, but now I understand - "Perfect love cast out all fear"

If you want to read my testimony, click on the globe and go to my first article "Where the Hell is Hell?"

[arcticmonster2003]

Bill Wiese bases his vision on Old Testament scriptures. Oh, come on, Artic, grow up. You perfectly know that the doctrine of hell is not an OT doctrine. Jewish people perfectly know this and they know that everlasting torment is not in their scriptures.

I think his vision is, as is, either we take it or leave it. Either he is telling the truth or a lie. How he tries to show how his vision lines up with scripture is another matter that we all must examine as well.

[WhiteWings]

True AM. How can we ever prove what he saw.
I've read his book and indeed it's the classic fire story. But it contradicts with another hell book that didn't have fire at all. To summarize that book: "Every sinner lived in some sort of cube. From the inside it looked big and like the world they lived in. One sinner was a ruthless bussinessman that ruined peoples life to reach his goals. In that cube he relived his life over and over but now being the one that got sacked."
True or not true? Don't ask me. But it sure is more of a learning exprience than burning.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote firstborn888

Ancient demonic pagan underworld mythology.

Every testimony of people whom have seen demons and devils and such speak of repulsive, hateful beings whom often stink and are "out of this world" scary and ugly and grotesque and fearful and evil. How is it that these testimonies are widely accepted, often even by universalists, and yet the reality, that even if you were placed in a beautiful place with these beings without protection and clearly seeing them it would not be pleasant, even if it were only for a couple of years.

Think of a cruise ship full of gangbangers, murderers, rapists, kidnappers, would that be a pleasant cruise? Of course not. While there are demons and such with us here on earth, thankfully most of us can't see them and even many unbelievers seem to have some protection from the hate that they harbor towards us, but what happens when one realizes they have been placed, by God, in the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, cause they, along with them, continues in rebellion against God until the gate was shut?

Even if hell was a beautiful place, the mere presence of these beings would make it hell in my opinion. And even if the place Bill talks about was only for a couple of days worth of punishment it seems unbearable in my opinion, but his testimony is that it is not for a couple of days but for eternity.

Its his testimony, its his experience, he says he was told to share it, its kind of a take it or leave it sort of thing. If you leave it cause he didn't line it up with the scriputures well enough then thats your decision.

Every description of demons that I have heard is horrible, does that make them pagan or lies? I don't think so, but, if we haven't seen one I guess we only have testimonies. Witnesses.

Either his vision was given from God or it wasn't, thats really the only question.

I do understand what he was talking about a bit when he was talking about thick darkness, where the sense of an evil presence is with you, I felt this while in my bed months ago, a very fearful feeling came over me and then my fiancee screamed and clinged to me telling me she saw "a man". Hey, there is a witness for you, from me personally, you can't verify it, but nonetheless its the truth, and the presence I felt is not something that I would want to have around, especially without any protection, it was very fearful and could be truly "felt", it wasn't happy, or good, something was seriously wrong there, I wouldn't want to be stuck in the final resting places of such spirits. There is another witness in the book of Job, what he describes is exactly what I felt, I mean exactly, except that I did not see it, my fiancee did though, I literally felt it when that spirit entered the room, now I don't know exactly what this spirit was, but something was seriously wrong with it.

Job 4:13  In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,
14  Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.
15  Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:

[WhiteWings]

Every testimony of people whom have seen demons and devils and such speak of repulsive, hateful beings whom often stink and are "out of this world" scary and ugly and grotesque and fearful and evil. How is it that these testimonies are widely accepted, often even by universalists, and yet the reality, that even if you were placed in a beautiful place with these beings without protection and clearly seeing them it would not be pleasant, even if it were only for a couple of years.

I think that half of those testemonies are fakes. Just a way to sell books. Just read other books. Give it your own twist and another NDE book is born.
For the real NDEs I think they could very well be parables.

While there are demons and such with us here on earth, thankfully most of us can't see them and even many unbelievers seem to have some protection from the hate that they harbor towards us, but what happens when one realizes they have been placed, by God, in the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, cause they, along with them, continues in rebellion against God until the gate was shut?

If 'hell' is about correction, unlearning the bad and learning the good why are there demons? How can something evil teach us how to be good?

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/bill_wiese.htm

[firstborn888]

quote firstborn888

Ancient demonic pagan underworld mythology.

Every testimony of people whom have seen demons and devils and such speak of repulsive, hateful beings whom often stink and are "out of this world" scary and ugly and grotesque and fearful and evil. How is it that these testimonies are widely accepted, often even by universalists, and yet the reality, that even if you were placed in a beautiful place with these beings without protection and clearly seeing them it would not be pleasant, even if it were only for a couple of years.

I have faced and seen the powers of darkness, no argument there. 'They' operate through our minds. 

Either his vision was given from God or it wasn't, thats really the only question.

The vision was given from the same place yours or mine was: The darkened human mind. That's where the ancient Egyptians got their twisted afterlife ideas and the Greeks etc. It's all from the same gross darkness.

I do understand what he was talking about a bit when he was talking about thick darkness, where the sense of an evil presence is with you, I felt this while in my bed months ago, a very fearful feeling came over me and then my fiancee screamed and clinged to me telling me she saw "a man". Hey, there is a witness for you, from me personally, you can't verify it, but nonetheless its the truth, and the presence I felt is not something that I would want to have around, especially without any protection, it was very fearful and could be truly "felt", it wasn't happy, or good, something was seriously wrong there, I wouldn't want to be stuck in the final resting places of such spirits. 

The vision was not from God. God sometimes opens our eyes to see the thick darkness around us. I have sensed and evil presence etc. as well.  No one will be in a place where these mythical creatures have power over them. That happens here and now, not in the grave.

[reFORMer]

His testimony is another proof that even if there is a "hell" and you go there you don't stay there.  He says he went there; but notice, he also came out of it and back here.  I had a Christian friend living with a man she wasn't married to.  She dreamed that for fornication she died and went to hell for ever and that there was no hope.  She could never get out.  When she awoke she set her affairs in order and in two weeks moved out, severing the relationship.  She used that experience as proof hell was real and permanent when we were arguing over what the Bible really says about it.  I told her whatever the real things translated with the one word hell are, if any of it was as she described, the reality should only prove to do the same thing for anyone that goes there as the dream of it did for her, work a zeal for righteousness and true repentance.  As well, just as she got out, so will they.  Of course she had nothing for a response but to drop her jaw so her mouth hung open as she stared at me.

[arcticmonster2003]

We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

[firstborn888]

We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

I'm sorry that is the case. I'm absolutely convinced that whole realm of darkness exists within the human heart/mind. The things which defile come from within not without and certainly not from a mythical 'hell'. 

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not not sneak up on Adam and Eve and pounce upon them as a giant demon. It's fruit was ingested.

[Paul Hazelwood]

We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

I'm sorry that is the case. I'm absolutely convinced that whole realm of darkness exists within the human heart/mind. The things which defile come from within not without and certainly not from a mythical 'hell'. 

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not not sneak up on Adam and Eve and pounce upon them as a giant demon. It's fruit was ingested.

I personally do not have a complete conclusion on this topic but I wanted to ask a question.
If it is only with the human heart and mind, rather than it being a broader spiritual spectrum, then how can our evil affect others and influence them to do the same evil as well? 

[arcticmonster2003]

Yes, firstborn888, I do understand. However, we do disagree, I believe the fear and such that I felt coming from that spirit to be of, well, a spiritual source, not a mental one, my mind did not feel fear, nor have fearful thoughts, it was, a spiritual experience, a spirit of fear and also the feeling of an evil presence, a spiritual feeling, not a mental one, thats my witness that I am giving, just to be more clear. I know that your mind may be set on a different view on these things, but my witness must be presented accurately to those whom might hear it.

I am only stating this though, I don't want a debate on these things on this thread cause I have a pretty good idea where that is going to lead this thread. I know from experience that threads on the nature of demons and such seem to keep going and going and going and going..........

I should, however, take the time here to say, that I am not calling that spirit I experienced a demon, I actually don't know what it was. I have even been told there are wandering spirits of humans here, and that the fear we feel when in their presence is possible what "they" are feeling themselves. Don't know, just know there was something seriously "spiritually" wrong with that spirit.

[Nathan]

Just a question, if God is Love . . . not the essence of love, but love as it's own substance.  If God is love, and he acts out of love, why then, would God revert to fear and intimidation to get you to enter into his love?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Just a question, if God is Love . . . not the essence of love, but love as it's own substance.  If God is love, and he acts out of love, why then, would God revert to fear and intimidation to get you to enter into his love?

Fear of something that is true, may not be a contradiction to God acting out of Love.

[Nathan]

You lost me . . ."Being afraid of truth may not be a contradiction of God working out of love . . ."  Nope, still ain't gettin' it.

Are you trying to say that God will "use" fear to drive us "into" his love?  Out of Love he will expose fear? 

I can see where he's shown up and scared the snot out of people, but I can't say that it was his will they be afriad of him.  Those guys who were given talents. . .the guy that got one talent and buried it . . . his reasoning was he saw God as one who carried a heavy judgment . . .so for fear of his judgment on his own life, he buried what was given to him.

Look, I'm not saying it's not a great and powerful tool to get people to respond to an altar call.  All I'm saying is, I'm not so sure God is the one instigating the fear.  Why would he have us build our relationship with him in love, that's been based on fear?

To me it's like telling my wife how much I love her . . .but if I ever come home unexpectedly and she's not around, I'm going to be the hell out of her . . . what a wonderful relationship "that" would be . .not to mention the fact that I could very well get the crap kicked out of me in the same way. :mshock:

[Paul Hazelwood]

You lost me . . ."Being afraid of truth may not be a contradiction of God working out of love . . ."  Nope, still ain't gettin' it.

I wrote: "Fear of something that is true, may not be a contradiction to God acting out of Love." 

Do we not teach children to fear some things?   Does that not help build a love when they learn to trust that we have protected them?

[Nathan]

Yes, we do, however I'm not seeing it in the same way as this beings that Greater is he that is in me . . . that is my protection.  In the natural, my protection over my child is limited.  And to be honest, if you think about your reasons "why" you want your child to be afraid . . .it's based more on my fear of whatever I'm trying to keep my child away from.

Be scared of fire . .why?  Because my fear is, you can be burned by it.
Be scared of water . .why?  Because my fear is you can drown in it.
Be afraid of hell . .  why?  Because my fear is, you'll end up in it . . .

God is not afraid of losing what's already been redeemed.  There is nothing stronger than the blood of the Lamb.  Not even my mind.

The purpose of man enforcing law is also based on fear.  That's why it's so hard for many to let go of what they've been taught . . .fear is a very powerful motivating tool.  But God doesn't need to use it because even though fear is strong . . .it doesn't hold a candle to the power of love.

My Mom was saved by this tactic . .it worked on her to.  I'm not saying it doesn't work . .I'm saying I'm not so sure God is the one initiating it.  I just think we can be more effective by way of love than fear.

[Pleroo]

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am not talking about witnessing or coercing someone into saying they accept Christ.  Some are falsely led to believe that salvation is this one time choice in our lives, when the bible starts in Genesis by saying God is "creating" us in his image.   He doesn't say, only those who choose will be such.

I was talking about the God of Love motivating us to understand something through fear.   This does not mean he will do that in everything.

Because that process is the process of salvation.   Religion sells fire insurance and ultimatly it teaches that if you so choose,  you need nothing more.    God brings all to the knowledge of truth and fear of something that causes us to turn to him is not wrong, it just may be the way.   Ultimatly God does it in a way that we learn to trust and obey.

[firstborn888]

We do disagree on these things firstborn888, no doubt about that.

I'm sorry that is the case. I'm absolutely convinced that whole realm of darkness exists within the human heart/mind. The things which defile come from within not without and certainly not from a mythical 'hell'. 

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not not sneak up on Adam and Eve and pounce upon them as a giant demon. It's fruit was ingested.

I personally do not have a complete conclusion on this topic but I wanted to ask a question.
If it is only with the human heart and mind, rather than it being a broader spiritual spectrum, then how can our evil affect others and influence them to do the same evil as well? 

I guess it's a matter of perspective. Where is a spirit? Out in space? Down the street? Hiding under my bed? Where is the spiritual? Where is the kingdom?

The 'spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies' are ruling powers and authorities. Where do they rule?

Religion, myth and tradition paint fantastic tales of rebellions in heaven and graphic images of grotesque creatures. I believe these are all vain imaginations spawned in the spiritual darkness inherent in the earthly Adam's nature.

Even while reading graphic symbols of real tangible events humans tend to see the literal images and hold them in awe above their real meaning.     

I'm not really challenging the way anyone here is relating to the darkness except to say it is present darkness and when we move on from this realm all those things will be gone as well.

[Nathan]

I agree, it's a matter of perspective and identity.  If I identfy myself as one who must still do battle, to me, I have not yet crossed over into the realm of rest . . .my identity is not in what I do .  .but in who I am.  I've mentioned this before . .somewhere . . .but I think there has been a changing of the guard, so to speak, concerning what day we are now entering into.  Everything is patterned after something deeper.

In the natural, we have seen the end of the 6th day . . .we are 6,000 years from Adam.  And we are on the verge of being a witness to the rising of the Sun on the Sabbath day.  The whole earth . .all creation is being exposed to this new day, just as all men were exposed to the previous 6 days . . .But on the 7th . . .the last day of the last days, it was just two days ago when Jesus stated that he would "rebuild" the temple religious men had torn down . . .this is that day.

What he is rebuilding is, a revelation of who he is to, and in every one of us.  I do believe we're going to see the religious churches of all denominations be greatly affected by this new day.  It's going to consume them and their works-based thinking.  Obama has been ranting about change . . .well, that's exactly what's coming, but the political side is only a tiny piece . . it's going to start at the church first. 

Those who find solitude in connecting with family members on forums such as this will come to realize that they are not alone, the whole church will be searching for the real truth.  What we know now, I truly believe we are the pioneers . .we are the first fruits of this new day.  This is why I encourage all who are a part of this . . .whitewings, you're included in this . . .I know you may think you're not . . .but you've been called my friend . .it's up to you as to whether you'll now be chosen.  At any rate, this is why I encourage everyone to take another look at how you apply the Word to you and others.  It's not a sword anymore . . .not for this new day.  It was a sword for those to who it was written to, and those who came after who were still born into the days of labor and warfare.

But this new day . .this is the thousand years we speak of . . .it's again, not a literal thousand year reign with Christ . . .many have been in this realm before us . . .but again, what was given to a few is now about to be poured out on all.  Just as the pattern of old when only prophets were caught up in the spirit . .until the spirit poured out on all flesh . . .so it is now, only a few across the globe have come into the reality of truth, by Grace all the way . . .but with this new day dawning, "all" the earth is about to be exposed to this glory of the Son.

Evil is not without, it is within.  Those who walk according to their own minds, are still walking with a veil over their understanding with things pertaining to Spirit and Truth.  They may see partly, but not the whole . . .but when that which is perfect comes to them . .as it's been coming to us . . .then that which was in part, will be made complete.  Our responsibility now . . .in my opinion . . .as fore-runners of the kingdom of rest . . . is to turn our swords in . . .let them be transformed in our understanding to plowshares.  Be farmers instead of fighters . . .let God give the increase.

The seeds we're to plant are things like . . .hell isn't what we thought . . .more people are going to end up in heaven than we were taught  . . . Sin isn't your biggest enemy . . .you need to lose your mind.  Adam and Eve are in you. . .as is the antichrist.  It's not about dividing God up into a trinity . . . or losing your salvation . . .or worrying about the Zodiac or demons, satan . . .and the devil . . . God meant what he said . . .they are a defeated foe . . .and all of them are between my ears. 

These are all simply seeds that God has shown that His Word may not literally state, but that's again, part of entering into the day of rest . . . I'm not required to memorize or quote a translated passage to anyone.  "I" am his epistle . . .the Word is in me . . . study to show yourself approved?  That's exactly what this does, in reading and identifying with the word I have found . . .I have been approved, not by my acts, but by the cross.  It's not about whether or not my mind acknowledges the work on the cross that makes the power go into effect . . . it's there, This world will be redeemed regardless of what man's mind believes about how it's done.

May the seed of life die "in" every one of us, so that Truth may take root and bring forth the fruit of life "out" of our flesh so all who we encounter may eat of our fruit and be transformed in the same way.

[WhiteWings]

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning..."

You knew someone had to bring that up, right?   :grin:

I brought that up a few weeks back.
fear is a bad translation I was told.
Should be 'awe'
The way I read it as a Dutchy
"The utmost respect (of things around me) of the Lord is the beginning..."