23 Minutes in hell, a witness or no?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I agree we are immortal, I simply believe it is important to know the nature of it.

Why is this significant to debate?  Whether it's given or . . .what?  How else would we have our imortality?  How would we have the breath we have had it first not been given?  How would we be able to comprehend without being "given" a mind to comprehend with?

Actually it is important, there are people, maybe not here, that believe we have always existed, that this is just a transition to being equal with God.   If we are inherantly immortal then asking the question "how else" will give the answer that we have always been and God did not have to give us that.

In fact, there is a line of reasoning in some mystic thought that we in fact chose to be in this life to become like Gods and that we have only forgotten who we once were and we are on our way back,  these are mystics that claim some thought towards the bible.   

It may not matter here , in this forum,  may not matter to you for any reason, 

I do not think that everyone automatically assumes that.    I guess if becoming more spiritual  means I shouldn't point something out in scripture, you can have your brand of it.  I want no part of it.

[Shadow]

Here's a different take on 23 Minutes in hell :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance: :boyheart: :girlheart:, apparently there's major discrepancies in the Bill Wiese (OBE - Whatever) which is plastered all over the net (I couldn't stomach watching them myself so I've only ever seen one clip in it's entirety)

Here are 2 audios from L Ray Smith in .mp3 format

23 minutes in hell PART1

23 minutes in hell PART2

[Nathan]

[quote     I guess if becoming more spiritual  means I shouldn't point something out in scripture, you can have your brand of it.  I want no part of it.


[/quote]

We're still not seeing what's being said.  I "do" think there is a problem when we embrace was is written literally.  I "do NOT" think that means to throw the Bible away and "create" my own doctrine.  I just came across a really interesting verse today that fits this very issue.  It's Hebrews 4:2 and it deals with the fact that many take the Word without MIXING it with faith and as a result, it profits nothing.  And being one of reputation for long-windedness, I shant let you down here either . . .I'm posting the entire message as it's in the context of the original topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We've been taught that Adam fell .  . . which in essence he did, but what if even "that" was planned?  If he didn't fall, Jesus could not manifest as the Christ. 

Hebrews 4:2, 3
2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Sigh . . .this was supposed to be in connection with the little imaginative surmising below but once again, I find myself unearthing another nugget totally unrelated, but very much where I've been hovering as of late.  Originally, all I was after was verse 3, but it seemed to be in the middle of a breath so I threw in verse 2.  The foundation of the world thinking really changes so many "what if's" in my reasoning because it again makes it very clear that the cross was not a plan "b" due to the fall of man.  But that it was already completed in the spirit "before" Adam even came on the scene.  But what was finished in the spirit, was yet to be lived out in the flesh.  I see the spiritual realm a prophecy of what's to happen in the natural.  The spiritual proclamation is not to say it's "going" to happen in the spirit, but that it already "has" happened there and now will also happen in the flesh.

So, the redemption of man already took place before there was even a natural realm for it to be lived out in.  Why was man created?  To live out in the flesh, the redemptive story that already transpired in the spirit . . and we are still living out the spiritually completed plan.  It's crazy, but whether my mind is aware of my actions or not, I am living out the original plan God had preordained before "man" ever existed.  It's a form of predestination, but not so much as what man has inferred it to be.  Man will jump to the conclusion that "if my life is predestined, then why bother?"  And that is the reasoning of a carnal mind, and not of a spirit sent from God . .which is what we all are. 

No, it has nothing to do with whether or not you "believe" in God as to whether or not his original plan will be played out by your life.  Look at the people all through Scripture who had absolutely no awareness that God even existed, that were used for his purpose in the process of maturing a nation. Whether I "believe" or not has no relevance.  What my belief or "faith" DOES do is, it releases life through me into others so that I become reproductive into the kingdom.  At any rate, Adam was already redeemed even before he fell . . .or . . .before he  . . ."jumped".   Our emotions can distract us from the fact that it's still God's plan. 

So . . .I dug up the above verse . . . but that's not the one that jumped out at me here today.  The above is just something that God has already led us to.  What is written after this, is yet another "faith" (Romans 1:17) that God is leading us into yet again.  The Word was preached both to our ancestors, and to us, but our ancestors did not profit from it in the same way as we are right now because our ancestors took the Word at face value.  They interpreted it literally.  "What is good for the goose, is good for the gander" mentality.

"They" were to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth . . .and "We" should preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.  "They" were to rebuke and reproof those who were not in alignment with what they were taught . .and "we" are to rebuke and reproof in the same manner, for the same reasons.  It goes on and on.  What was to be understood literally to "that" generation, is to be also handed down literally to our generation.  But that's not faith, nor is it profitable for "my" generation.  For me to hear what I have heard for all my life is of no profit to me now.  It's just fortifying where I currently am, with what I already know.  Growth is not reaffirming myself with what I already know.  Growth is receiving what I've never heard before.  When you read the Bible from one cover to the other . . .that's it.  There's no other "advanced Bible" to graduate into.  After that, it's all reviewing what you've already been through.

So . . .am I saying the Bible is disposable?  Absolutely not.  But I will say, after you've read through it, you know the stories and principles fairly well, you don't have to memorize the Bible to understand it's principles.  But once you have them down . . .then what?  Tradition will tell you that if you come to a place where you find yourself searching and searching for something "deeper" than what you've had this far in your life, that the time has come for you to teach others.  But the truth is, that's nothing more than a distraction for your hunger.  What they're actually saying when they do that is . . . this "is" all there is.  And once you come to "this" place, what feeds you now, will be the process of teaching others.  And that may be great for a couple months, but after any prolonged period of time, what it's going to end up doing is . . .it's going to wear you out.  Why?

Because for all of your traditional life, you've been fed the idea that more knowledge is more food.  The more you learn, the more you grow, the more you grow, the more you know, the more you know, the more you can now teach others.   It's the cycle of church life.  But it's time guys . . .our time has come.  We are being called out from the ranks of living in traditional reasoning.  Some of us have felt the twinge of life here and there, but our overall thinking is still entrenched in our religious background thinking.  In our worship yesterday, it got so, so  . . .what's the word I'm looking for . . . so HEAVY.  It began with just singing a spiritual song . .but people started seeing visions and later sharing them.  What I saw was an army, which basically sounds like any other spiritual vision one may have.  But this army was not an army of war, but an army of peace.  I believe what I saw was what Revelation speaks of when the Kings of the East cross the river Euphrates.  We are those kings and we are kings of resurrection . .the rising of the Son.  And we come across a dry river bed. 

Euphrates means "to break forth" It's considered as the river of the East . . . when it dries up, that's a picture of Christ dying as us.  And as a result of him dying, as a result of the river drying up, it gives us access to cross over into our promised land.  The river has dried up 2000 years ago and the army has been accumulating with kings ever since.  There is only one day when they will advance into the promised land . . and that is on the day of the Sabbath . .which is what we again are entering into.  Our ancestors did not have what we have.  They did not take the Bible and mix it with the Spirit.  They embraced the Bible for what it said literally . . .as so many still do today.  And while they are professing their stand on the Word, they use that same Word to  slice each other into little itty bitty pieces.

The Word MUST be mixed with FAITH.  And Faith only comes by HEARING . . .not hearing someone quote a Scripture . .but hearing the Word IN YOU.  Your heart is the Bible now . .that's where God has gone through great measures to write it.  Read your Bible . .but embrace your heart . . .for there is where your true love awaits you.

[Paul Hazelwood]

The problem is Nathan,  your entering into a forum post where no teaching is ever complete.   Just because I think it is important to define the nature of our immortality does not mean I am not wanting to also see the spiritual nature behind it,  it just didn't happen to get talked about in that post. 

So if your going to constantly berate me for pointing physical things out and that to you is trying to get me to see the spiritual then I want no part of your attitude,  feel free to post as much as you like, it doesn't change the tone you have towards people in that regaurd and if thats the great spirituality you teach, good for you,  I want no part of it.

[Taffy]

The problem is Nathan,  your entering into a forum post where no teaching is ever complete.   Just because I think it is important to define the nature of our immortality does not mean I am not wanting to also see the spiritual nature behind it,  it just didn't happen to get talked about in that post. 

So if your going to constantly berate me for pointing physical things out and that to you is trying to get me to see the spiritual then I want no part of your attitude,  feel free to post as much as you like, it doesn't change the tone you have towards people in that regaurd and if thats the great spirituality you teach, good for you,  I want no part of it.

Personally I see NO attitude Problem nor Tone In Nats Posts, he explains very well Both literal and Spiritual.

So My account Nat, Continue, for Some truly Benefit from what you share.

:icon_flower:

[Paul Hazelwood]

LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

[Taffy]

LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

[Paul Hazelwood]

LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

I'm not telling him to stop the spiritual Talk so it's obvious you have no idea what your responding to,  I'm not leaving,  didn't even ask nathan to stop posting.

I quote a friggen scripture and I'm asked  "what that matters"  then I am told I do not see what is being said after answering why I think it matters.  I'm telling Nathan I do not care for his type of spirituality so if I am free to express myself, thats me expressing myself.

So whatever dude.

[Taffy]

LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

I'm not telling him to stop the spiritual Talk so it's obvious you have no idea what your responding to,  I'm not leaving,  didn't even ask nathan to stop posting.

I quote a friggen scripture and I'm asked  "what that matters"  then I am told I do not see what is being said after answering why I think it matters.  I'm telling Nathan I do not care for his type of spirituality so if I am free to express myself, thats me expressing myself.

So whatever dude.

well Im Glad your Not leaving.. :icon_flower:

Theres an Obvious distain for such Spiritual Talk ,thats your prerogative,  :icon_flower: but ive  seen some forced from the Board by a Majority who at times DONT agree....

Ya ever Notice how some come out the Closet when someone sets the Bench mark?

Go figure Bud :icon_flower:





My Point is and Was..Get used to what freedom we Have in these parts..as Im sure its Not everyones Liking...

[Paul Hazelwood]

LOL, of course if you agree with him why would you. DUH

.

Im afriad Bud you Dont know me....Those who come to Tent have a Relative FREEDOM to speak, They Love that, But dont like it WHEN some say Different...and Im not talking about BEING personal.


So bud, get used to this spirtual Talk or Leave...I care Not...For some have to suffer likewise In other areas.

Its all Relative


Have a Nice day
:icon_flower:

I'm not telling him to stop the spiritual Talk so it's obvious you have no idea what your responding to,  I'm not leaving,  didn't even ask nathan to stop posting.

I quote a friggen scripture and I'm asked  "what that matters"  then I am told I do not see what is being said after answering why I think it matters.  I'm telling Nathan I do not care for his type of spirituality so if I am free to express myself, thats me expressing myself.

So whatever dude.

well Im Glad your Not leaving.. :icon_flower:

Theres an Obvious distain for such Spiritual Talk ,thats your prerogative,  :icon_flower: but ive  seen some forced from the Board by a Majority who at times DONT agree....

Ya ever Notice how some come out the Closet when someone sets the Bench mark?

Go figure Bud :icon_flower:

My Point is and Was..Get used to what freedom we Have in these parts..as Im sure its Not everyones Liking...

Nope, no distain for spiritual talk, in fact I encourage it.  If people do not think I encourage it then they haven't read many things that I have written. 

You've completely missed what I was saying to Nathan, so have a happy day.    :thumbsup:

[Taffy]

Likewise  :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Wow . . .there seems to be a desire for warring on the forum lately . . . I spent . ..literally, I spent all of today reading up on the other thread that's like . . .25 pages now . .only to get to the end and find it's locked . . .and then I check out to see what responses I got on this and find another argument . . .first off . . .Taf, sorry about sucking you into this one . .and Paul . . .I'll tell you straight up . .I've never met Taffy in person, never spoke with him over the phone, but I will tell you Taf and I are both of a kindred spirit and I love the man to death . . .something there with him that's such a deeper connection than others  . .but by your response to him I sense you're already aware of this.

I don't mean to come off as you claim I have.  I comment the way I do about the spiritual side because of all the arguments, no one offers a spiritual picture.  They, and you, may accuse me of being to mystic, but when you post, there is no explanation given that there is "other" perspectives or other ways to see it than what you're specifically saying . .so that causes me to think that you feel the literal is more important than the spiritual . .but the call for us is not to walk in our own reasoning, or walk in the flesh, but to walk in the spirit.  So that is always first and foremost in my heart.

I don't mean to come off as a know-it-all teacher . . .I do teach, and love doing so, but I don't try that here so much . . .mostly I share with context.  It's how God wired me.  I think I get it from my Dad . . he's even longer winded than I am.  I apologize for the "tone" of my messages.  It may be deeper than that but our relationship is solely based on what is said on these boards, so I won't try to assume what I don't know.

Bottom line, I share what I see.  I don't rely on what I know.  It's clear that the mind of man has issues when it comes to the things of God . . .but if I can't speak in love, I'm nothing buy an annoying noise.  If that's what I become to you, I apologize.  My quest is not to get everyone to see what I see.  Truly, my desire is to illuminate the fire in others so that they to can be consumed by the light of God and let their minds submit to their spirits.

If anything, it blows my mind to hear and see what I do say because half the stuff I write . . . no one has told me either.  Someone on the locked thread mentioned trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole . . .well . . .when you're dealing with the spirit . . .the square peg actually fits the round hole because . . .it's dimensional.  For example, if you go to McDonnalds (feeling a little hungry) and take the straw out . . .look at it from end to end, it looks like a long rectangle . .but when you turn it . . .and look "through" it, you can see that your rectangle is actually round . .it just depends on "what perspective" you're looking at it from.

We have people demanding the Word is Square and others demanding the Word is round . . .and God simply says . . .yup.

[Taffy]

Apologies to all Nat

Im a Little hot under the collar for moment,..a Gathering of other issues .

:icon_flower:

[pneuma]

We have people demanding the Word is Square and others demanding the Word is round . . .and God simply says . . .yup.

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: can't help it that just struck me as funny, true but funny

[Taffy]

We have people demanding the Word is Square and others demanding the Word is round . . .and God simply says . . .yup.

:laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: can't help it that just struck me as funny, true but funny

Please Scott..No Laughing..

Unless ya Got some real Funnies to Share :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[Pierac]

Here's a different take on 23 Minutes in hell :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :bgdance: :boyheart: :girlheart:, apparently there's major discrepancies in the Bill Wiese (OBE - Whatever) which is plastered all over the net (I couldn't stomach watching them myself so I've only ever seen one clip in it's entirety)

Here are 2 audios from L Ray Smith in .mp3 format

23 minutes in hell PART1

23 minutes in hell PART2

Hi Shadow,

Thanks for the links, it's been a while since I heard Ray speak. Boy does he ever love to  :spank: these idiots, who seek to make money off of the fear others!


Paul

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nathan I disagree that no one offers the spiritual, why does it have to meet your criteria of it? 

We seem to disagree that the physcial in this life will play a part of the spiritual because until we are totally spiritual beings thats how it wuill be.

You can be as mystic as you like but the objections I raise with mystic people is that they think they have a better handle on it than someone else and thats when they start appearing critical of those who do not see it their way.

You asked me why what I wrote matters,  I explained my thoughts on the matter and all that gets said to me and your kindred spirit is that I hate the spiritual.  What I am saying is if your idea of being more spiritual than someone else is how you comment to me when I post something physical in nature, then you can have it.   I see nothing greater through that at all. 


Great, your blown away by what you know, cool,  I am blown away by things that I see,  but I do not need you to follow my spirituality to know the spiritual things I do see and share the physical side of things that helped get me there.

Post made from this Moment forth..sorry it had to be YOU Paul...that are NOT polite will be Edited...

thats EVERYONE...

Got a Complaint..take it to Martin.

We will strive to be Consistent from this day Forth WITH EVERYONE.

[Nathan]

Nathan I disagree that no one offers the spiritual, why does it have to meet your criteria of it? 

I guess because if we are really in the spirit of Love we have convinced ourselves we are in, there would be more oneness and more kindred spirits, rather than the divisiveness that leads to locked threads.  All these roads we're on actually lead to Christ, yes?  And he came as a physical manifestation of the Love of the Father to enable us to also be in that love. 

I guess I could say the same of you on your disagreement with me . . .in fact, that's pretty much the criteria of everyone who chooses to post by reflex due to a difference of opinion.  We all have our own standards of what we think "right" is.  That's been my underlying argument all along.  We assume the responsibility to bring others into correction by enforcing our rightness on others.  And I'm fully aware that I've gotten caught up in these sparring contests myself.  And sometimes, it's just inevidible due to the nature of the conversation. 

And yes, we are human, and we communicate as humans.  In fact that's what Jesus was all about . . .using the "natural" world around him . . .but the emphasis was not on the natural things he "used".  His emphasis was always using the natural things to point to a spiritual truth.  And I'd like to add just one thing to what Taf said about how he things.  Either spiritual or natural . . .but there's yet another dimension that I'd like to throw in that mix . .which is "moral".  It kind of sets inbetween the natural and the spiritual.  So yes, we are natural beings . .but again, we're not to focus on the natural . .if we were, Scripture would not then say that the flesh profits nothing.  It would not then say "rely not on your own understanding".  Stuff like that.

I've not really seen what you're claiming, about other "mystics" thinking they have a better handle . . . one shares what one sees, another shares what they see and the reason why we're seeing differently is because we're coming at it from two differnt perspectives.  But "somebody" always has to feel that because they are different, that someone must be wrong. 

For me, it's not about changing what is different between you and me and making it conform to the same as me . .you've already made that part quite clear that it's not going to happen and I wouldn't want it to.  If I were to be able to conform you, it wouldn't be the true you, it would be my forced image in you.  So why would I want to make you into something you're not.  It is the Spirit's responsibility to transform that part of you, not mine. 

The thing about a working body is, opposite parts are necessary.  You can't function with out opposites.  You HAVE to have a "right" hand to compliment the "left" hand.  They are opposites, but they are still both hands.  It's the same with me when it comes to good and evil . . .everyone is out to separte the two from each other.  But I believe God created both to bring balance to the body.  Yes, I am a physical being . . .but it is my spirit that has been given the authority over my flesh.  And it is the spirit that I choose to pursue. 

Great, your blown away by what you know, cool,  I am blown away by things that I see,  but I do not need you to follow my spirituality to know the spiritual things I do see and share the physical side of things that helped get me there

Again, I apologize that you take this to apparently mean that I'm more spiritual.  For me, if there is a river in you . . .let it flow out.  Maybe knowing how you got to where you are spiritually, would enable me to advance my walk spiritually as well.  Is that not what we're to be doing with each other?  Edifying, building up, supporting, encouraging . .etc.?

[sven]

about the immortal soul, there is an interesting verse, that almost no english translation seems to translate exactly:

Leviticus 17,14

For [regarding] the soul of all flesh its blood is in its soul, and I said to the children of Israel: You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the soul of any flesh is its blood all who eat it shall be cut off.

i found it translated correct here:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/9918/jewish/Chapter-17.htm

that doesnt speak for an immortal soul

[WhiteWings]

(VW) for it is the soul of all flesh. Its blood is its soul. Therefore I said to the children of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any flesh, for the soul of all flesh is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.

(UPDV) For the soul of all flesh is its blood, which is in its living body. Therefore I said to the sons of Israel, You+ will eat the blood of no manner of flesh; for the soul of all flesh is its blood: whoever eats it will be cut off.

(Webster)  For it is the life of all flesh, the blood of it is for the life of it; therefore I said to the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is its blood: whoever eateth it shall be cut off.

Gen 9:4

(VW) But you shall not eat flesh with its soul, that is, its blood.

(DSV)  Doch het vlees met zijn ziel, dat is zijn bloed, zult gij niet eten.

[WhiteWings]

Soul and life both have the same Hebrew root word

5315 נפשׁ nephesh
Meaning:  1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man 1b) living being 1c) living being (with life in the blood) 1d) the man himself, self, person or individual 1e) seat of the appetites 1f) seat of emotions and passions 1g) activity of mind 1g1) dubious 1h) activity of the will 1h1) dubious 1i) activity of the character 1i1) dubious
Origin:  from 05314; TWOT - 1395a; n f
Usage:  AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9, body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3, themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 45; 751

H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H5314
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1395a

[pneuma]

Heres a question

If this person spent 23 minutes in hell, how did he get back out if it eternal? :happygrin:

[WhiteWings]

He wasn't judged to be there.
He was there to view as a warning to himself and whole mankind.
Using your kinda logic Heaven isn't eternal either because the people with the Heaven NDEs are back on earth.

A bit like you leaving TentMaker forever. Welcome back :thumbsup:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Nathan I disagree that no one offers the spiritual, why does it have to meet your criteria of it? 

I guess because if we are really in the spirit of Love we have convinced ourselves we are in, there would be more oneness and more kindred spirits, rather than the divisiveness that leads to locked threads.  All these roads we're on actually lead to Christ, yes?  And he came as a physical manifestation of the Love of the Father to enable us to also be in that love. 

I'd say a locked thread doesn't mean anything to me but what is perceived by the mods, nothing more, nothing less.  I'd say there is plenty of oneness and kindred spirits, but the problem is that wanting agreement of others seems takes precidence over growth.

I've grown more spiritually when my point of view is challenged. However what happens is the value of that growth is usually measured by people who are only looking at how I react rather than an understanding of where I have come from.

I measure the worth by who grows, who studies, who contemplates, who questions, who desires truth.   I do not measure it by who can feel better about themselves, who can avoid scripture at their convenience, or who can agree with who.  Two people feeling good about each other and their agreement means nothing if they both agree on something that is in error.


I am not saying you are wrong or in error, I am saying that you should continue to seek the spiritual as we all should,  but if I do not see it your way, it does not mean I am not spiritual, it means I am just different.  I do not doubt your spirituality, and most likely you do not doubt mine.   What I do not buy into is that our agreement on anything is any measure of that whatsoever.

[pneuma]

He wasn't judged to be there.
He was there to view as a warning to himself and whole mankind.
Using your kinda logic Heaven isn't eternal either because the people with the Heaven NDEs are back on earth.

A bit like you leaving TentMaker forever. Welcome back :thumbsup:

Hi WW thanks for the welcome back, and you should know by now from reading my rebuttal to Matt Slick that I don't beleive heaven is anymore eternal the hell.

For BOTH are said to be created.

Oh and if he was not judged to be there he would not have been there, for as Lazaras could not cross the gulf how did he.