I was reading The Bible Hell by J. Hanson when I came across the passage of Isaiah Chapter 14. I stumbled on the word, Day Star, and saw it in other translations as being interpreted as Lucifer. I was wondering if someone could tell me how to figure out the original Hebrew, and where I would look to find how Day Star is seen as Lucifer. How can I figure out the appearance of the original Hebrew in other verses in the Bible. I am new at word studies completely. Thank you for any help.
If you have any perspective on the passage, please share it. But know that I am scholar at heart, so I would more appreciate it if you substantiated you perspective with primary resources.
"Lucifer" means "shining one" and Daniel penned these bright words of promise: "And they that be wise SHALL SHINE AS THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT; and they that turn many to righteousness AS THE STARS FOR EVER AND EVER" (Dan. 12:3). It is not possible to explain these truths to human satisfaction. The things that eye has not seen nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man MUST BE REVEALED to us by the Spirit. You see, God is light and when that God-light works its way out into our outer-man we begin to shine as the firmament. The Day Star is the OUTRAYING of the Father, the FORTHSHINING of the Son; it is being "filled with all the fullness of God", it is "Christ formed in you" and it is "the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness".
No, Lucifer is not Satan. Lucifer is the Perfect Man, in truth the very image of God, the out-raying of His life and nature. Lucifer is Christ in His fullness, the Alpha and the Omega together, the First and the Last in one, Jesus of Nazareth the Head, one body with a vast family of Sons in one glorious manifestation of Sonship. My spirit sings, Amen! Jesus declared, "You are the LIGHT of the world!" In the light of this glorious revelation of what the Day Star really is, I do not wonder that, when John saw the glory of the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, he especially noted that the city had "the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious...and the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them that are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. And... there shall be no night there" (Rev. 21:11, 23-25).
The day is coming when the Day Star shall have so arisen in our hearts, when the Son shall so shine forth from all those many Sons who shall have been fully brought to HIS GLORY, that all we look upon shall be flooded with heavenly light! It is from such a realm of glory and eminence and blessing that Adam fell! Since the transgression in Eden long ago, men's spirits have been fallen. They have no power but to receive light and reflections from without, but in the beginning the spirit of man was intended, not only to RECEIVE light, but to BE light and to GIVE light. This is even now a wonderful reality in Christ, for "you were sometimes darkness, but now YOU ARE LIGHT in the Lord: walk as children of light" (Eph.5:8). Ah, we are now light in the Lord, but the measure of light we now are is small indeed, in comparison with the light that shall be revealed at the manifestation of the Sons of God. For the sight of this glorious unveiling the whole creation stands on tip-toe, and it shall come to pass that all that is looked upon by the Sons of God will be FLOODED WITH THE LIGHT OF LIFE, for the creation shall then be delivered from the bondage of corruption (Rom. 8:19-21).
The rest of the article is here: http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/antichrist/antichrist5.htm
Thats good. :bigGrin:
So are you!
Beloved Servant,
Thank you for your post. I did find that the hebrew word in Isaiah is not the same as the greek word in 2 peter 1:19. 2 Peter is correctly translated to Lucifer (light bringer) but heilel in Isaiah 14 is Hebrew and is only used once in the Bible. Its meaning is uncertain but would have found its meaning from where the word is derived from, Halal.
So who is Isaiah refering to in Chapter 14?
Awww yeh made me blush :mblush: :mblush:
lol
http://lookhigher.net/englishbibles/links/modernbibles.html?v=theamplifiedbible&b=isaiah&c=14 <——— the verse with references is on the right side of the page.
Sorry, I never posted a link to that site for a specific verse and it seems to have defaulted back to the main listing.
Anyway, scroll down to verse 12 and click on the small green box with the letter I inside it.
That will link you to the lexicon.
Has the realization come to any one, that by beginning to teach that "Lucifer" is God will cause a GREAT commotion to how
people who will swear that Lucifer is satan. I Remember Bill Brition teaching this. Should we go by what the word "lucifer" means maybe, man can begin to understand, hêylêl= the morning star.
Maybe, just maybe LUCIFER is the name of God? God is only a title, right? We know the name of the son=Jesus(Savior) why is it that we do not know the FATHER? Man has not seen nor heard the FATHER...ever!
Joh 5:37 And the Father who sent me, *He* has given testimony concerning me. None of you have ever either heard His voice or seen what He is like.
Are we lost??
While Moses was hid in the cleft of the Rock he got to see God pass by him.
He also spoke with the Lord many times as have others; sooooo, they must have been speaking with the Word: Christ.
Seem reasonable?
Beloved Servant,
Are you saying that Isaiah 14:12 is refering to Christ?
Thanks
Lucifer is Christ in His fullness, the Alpha and the Omega together, the First and the Last in one, Jesus of Nazareth the Head, one body with a vast family of Sons in one glorious manifestation of Sonship.
Read the paragraphs I posted above.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 31, 2011, 07:07:28 AM
Lucifer is Christ in His fullness, the Alpha and the Omega together, the First and the Last in one, Jesus of Nazareth the Head, one body with a vast family of Sons in one glorious manifestation of Sonship.
Read the paragraphs I posted above.
Affirmation: WE ARE NOT LOST! :bigGrin:
I still am trying to come to understanding of Isaiah 14:12, but Beloved Servant, I believe you are not taking Isaiah 14: 3-11 in to consideration. Isaiah 14:12 is not talking about Christ, and heylel is not definitively understood as the morning star. It appears to be an man made assumption. Heylel had not been used before and so its meaning had to be derived from the root halah. Halah was often translated to:
make boast self, celebrate, commend, deal, make, foolish glory, give light, be make,
A primitive root; to be clear (orig. Of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence, to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively, to celebrate; also to stultify -- (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(- ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.
According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
Some having negative connotations and some having positive connotations.
There is nothing but light involved with the name/word "Lucifer," how the name that mans "brightness" "day star" the word became a word/name that meant pain, hurt, and death, when the words true meaning is "light" "the first star" it has nothing to do with darkness or evil.
Michael Heiser--the serpent in Gen 3 was a member of the divine council and actually a serpentine being of light.
Psa 82--YHWH is talking to the rebellious members of his council and telling them that because of how they are acting--although they are gods, they will die like men.
We see Heylel, Lucifer--a being of light being brought down to the grave like a man--is this the 'man' that made the earth to tremble? They are making fun of him here. YHWH has lessened his stature.
Isa 14:16,17 tells you who he is--
16They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
To my mind, this is describing an evil and rebellious spiritual being , the Destroyer-- look at the power he has. This is Satan, who can appear as an angel of light. This is NOT Christ [ if I understood correctly that some are saying that].
"Lucifer"
H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.
H1984
הלל
hâlal
haw-lal'
A primitive root; to be clear (originally of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show; to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causatively to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.
:2c:
So then I take it Molly, you dont agree!!?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 09:10:00 AM
So then I take it Molly, you dont agree!!?
I guess not. I was so shocked that people were calling Lucifer Jesus, that I couldn't really read it. It hurt my heart. So maybe I should go back and try to read what people are saying more carefully.
Quote from: BelovedServant"Lucifer" means "shining one" and Daniel penned these bright words of promise: "And they that be wise SHALL SHINE AS THE BRIGHTNESS OF THE FIRMAMENT; and they that turn many to righteousness AS THE STARS FOR EVER AND EVER" (Dan. 12:3).
We will replace the rebellious shining ones of the divine council when we take our place to rule and reign as co-inheritors with Jesus.
God will shake the heavens up.
This is the reason the serpentine being made a bee-line for Adam in the garden. Satan is a pretender to the throne
"the rebellious shining ones of the divine council"
I haven't a clue as to what this means. The only Divine council is God and His Christ. God is light and there is no rebellion in Him or His Sovereignty.
Every atom on the planet and yeah! in this universe is held together by the hand of God. There is nothing going about on its own. NOTHING.
NEW HEAVENS...... and war broke out in heaven
the adversary has always been a spirit of rebellion against God's rule
It's his nature.
Can heaven be the space between our ears where the carnal mind is at enmity with God?
Its nature is not even able to perceive the things of God which can only come within the Oneness of Spirit.
O'Yes..it can be...but I wouldn't limit it. IT ISSO MUCH MORE THAN JUST OUR MIND...though we perceive it with our mind. It IS THE WILL AND MIND OF GOD
THAT FORMS AND MAKES AND CREATES[we form and caryy an idol,God forms and carry's us]
What is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven.What you bind on earth is bound in heaven limiting God in man's mind falls far short of His Glory
filling the earth with the knowledge of God [new heavens] the New creation we await..and can not know..until He forms it in us. For
all creation is a work of His hands.....And it is by His spirit only that the false prophet and beast are done away with and the adversary is consumed
Indeed His spirit going to and fro shapes the new creation...both new heavens and new earth...and death is destroyed..BUT THE DESOLATION OF THE OLD
MUST OCCUR TO MAKE ROOM FOR THE NEW...Heaven and earth WILL pass away..but my words will never pass away
No limitations.
Mass communication.
The heavens roil with the offspring of Adam AND Eve.
Whether or not you believe Satan is a real being [I do] or that there are other spiritual beings in the heavens like the angels and the sons of God [I do], principalities and powers of darkness, you have to agree this is not Jesus:
17That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners [Isa 14:17]
There is nothing that God created that does not have life in it.
Only that Life that dwells in the Sabbath remains.
then why did God have to destroy death?
To keep it from reproducing.
:laughing7:
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil--
--Heb 2:14
Exactly.
And obviously, he does not hold the power of Life, for each produces after its own kind.
for her sins have piled up to heaven,mix her a double portion from her own cup...
in her was found the blood of all the prophets and all the saints and the blood of all that have been killed on earth
O'Yes!
He destroys death so that we may live in HIM!!! :bgdance:
Unchain my heart.
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
--Eph 4:8
That Day Star will be supernova to the natural eye.
When Jesus walked the earth 2000 years ago the people must have just sat there stunned with their heads cocked back and the mouths dropped open while He spoke.
'unchained melody'
no,actually quite a few put their hands over their ears :mshock: Acts 7;57 Look,I see heaven open....
Context is important, if not of prime importance. I cannot see Isaiah 14:12 referring to Christ. God is the "Father of Lights". There are many stars and a third of them are swept from the heavens by the dragons tail. Whether or not the translation is correct or not is an issue worthy of examination for sure, but the context of Isaih 14 eliminates Messiah as the morning star in question in those verses. To make a broad statement saying Lucifer always refers to Christ creates unnecessary controversy as far as I am concerned, and is not authoritative insofar as a complete study on words relating to stars and morning stars and daystars and shining ones might reveal, IMO.
Many messages do disguise themselves as angels of light.
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Till the stars fall from my eyes — there will always be a You.
Thank you Lord.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 31, 2011, 09:10:26 PM
Context is important, if not of prime importance. I cannot see Isaiah 14:12 referring to Christ. God is the "Father of Lights". There are many stars and a third of them are swept from the heavens by the dragons tail. Whether or not the translation is correct or not is an issue worthy of examination for sure, but the context of Isaih 14 eliminates Messiah as the morning star in question in those verses. To make a broad statement saying Lucifer always refers to Christ creates unnecessary controversy as far as I am concerned, and is not authoritative insofar as a complete study on words relating to stars and morning stars and daystars and shining ones might reveal, IMO.
:thumbsup:
DO NOT LET YOUR SINS WEIGH YOU DOWN......O'what a DRAGON TAIL[TALE}
Do you mean scorpion tail?
no, the dragontale that sweeps a third of the stars from heaven. The same dragon bent on devouring the manchild as soon as it's born....followed
by war breaking out in heaven and satan being thrown down..with his angels[messengers] with him
Scorpio, O Scorpio, Where for art thou Scorpio?
MAY WE NEVER KNOW HIM!!
or rather,the torment of his sting
ISA 14:12 HowH349 art thou fallenH5307 from heaven,H4480 H8064 O Lucifer,H1966 sonH1121 of the morning!H7837 how art thou cut downH1438 to the ground,H776 which didst weakenH2522 H5921 the nations!H1471
This is the King James version. Lucifer is translated from Heylel, as we have said, and son of the morning is from the Hebrew words bên[son] shachar [morning].
Other translations call Lucifer: morning star, shining star, day star, star of the morning, and shining one.
These are all translations based on the word hêylêl.
King James calls Lucifer, son of the morning, translated from ben shachar. Other translations substitute for son of the morning--son of the dawn, son of Dawn, who didst rise in the morning.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are shining ones, also called morning stars. We see them first in Job 38:7--when the morning stars sang together... We are told Satan can present himself as an angel of light in the NT.
Michael Heiser calls these shining ones the divine council, as we see them in council with YHWH in various places such as Gen 1, Job 1, Job 38, and Psa 82.
Jesus has promised his overcomers the morning star, meaning that some day we will become one of the shining ones. We also see that in Isa 14 Lucifer has power over the nations. This, too, will change when Jesus gives his overcomers the power over the nations.
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28And I will give him the morning star.
29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
--Rev 2
PS There is a reason why Lucifer wants a New World Order. As always, he is mimicing God and seeking to replace Christ and his overcomers.
9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)Bridegroom 11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service(gestate sons), so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith(woman clothed with the sun) and in the knowledge of the Son of God(woman clothed with the Son) and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ(a child is born a man).
14 Then we will no longer be infants(like we are now ;o), tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming(dragons flood). 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love(ah there's the rub), we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work(manchild, reconciling men unto God, destroying the works of the devil, setting the whole creation free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God).
A wise woman builds her house up. The foolish woman tears it down.Unless the Lord build the house,the workers work in vain[it will be torn down]
If what George M. Lamsa "Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text" Translation form the Aramaic of the Pecrapta, has any weight, and I believe it does simply because it takes the reasoning of Day Star, Morning Star, Shinning One, and even brightness out of the way of thinking.
In Isa.14:12 the Aramaic word for "ailel" to howl, is confused by the Hebrew word "helel", light. The refeence here is to the King of Babylon and not to Lucifer.
That's why the scripture admonishes: "...neither give place to the devil" (Eph. 4:27).
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 10:49:21 PM
If what George M. Lamsa "Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text" Translation form the Aramaic of the Pecrapta, has any weight, and I believe it does simply because it takes the reasoning of Day Star, Morning Star, Shinning One, and even brightness out of the way of thinking.
In Isa.14:12 the Aramaic word for "ailel" to howl, is confused by the Hebrew word "helel", light. The refeence here is to the King of Babylon and not to Lucifer.
And all God's people say, Amen!
The Amplified Bible states it the same way.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 10:49:21 PM
If what George M. Lamsa "Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text" Translation form the Aramaic of the Pecrapta, has any weight, and I believe it does simply because it takes the reasoning of Day Star, Morning Star, Shinning One, and even brightness out of the way of thinking.
The king of Babylon liked to howl? lol
King James uses heylel as do many other translations. The shining ones aren't going away, they are referenced in too many other places. They are called morning stars and sons of God. They are placed by YHWH over the nations when he takes Israel for himself. For this reason, Daniel calls them Princes. Paul refers to them in Eph 6.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.--2 Cor 11:14
QuoteIn Isa.14:12 the Aramaic word for "ailel" to howl, is confused by the Hebrew word "helel", light. The refeence here is to the King of Babylon and not to Lucifer.
OT was written in Hebrew.
WOW! according to my concordance....there's a whole lotta howling going on :mshock:
What the howl is Howl?
name for Satan
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
hêylêl bên shachar
the Shining One, son of the dawn!
Lucifer is Latin: lucis-ferre => light-bringer I guess it orginates from the Vulgate. Romans had there own Lucifer. Venus.
Lucifer is a good translation on itself. It's Latin. And when you say Latin you say Roman. And when you say Roman....
Lucifer is a Latin word (from the words lucem ferre), literally meaning "light-bearer", which in that language is used as a name for the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, heralding daylight. Use of the word in this sense is uncommon in English, in which "Day Star" or "Morning Star" or "The Star of the East" are more common expressions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
So the translation is not really wrong. But using it elsewhere is what's wrong.
I've even seen a view Jesus is Lucifer. Jesus is the light of the world. Lucifer means bringer of light. Jesus also brings light. And that basicly mean Jesus=Venus....
Lucifer is only used once in the King James Bible. Jesus is never referred to as Lucifer. Nor does Jesus fit into the context of Isa 14. You know that, ww.
Jesus is not a bearer of light. He is light. He is the light of the world.
I showed the other translations for heylel, all referring to a bright and shining star.
The idea of a star as producing its own very bright light is what is important here. Hence the idea of humans being blinded by the god of this world--Satan. The light is what deceives them.
Again, a reminder: Adam was not deceived.
The sons of God are divine beings, lesser gods, a different class of heavenly beings than messenger angels. This is understood and accepted by Hebrew scholars. They are divine, not human. They are referred to as elohiym--'gods.'
Everywhere in the OT Bible where this phrase occurs, the context tells us these are divine beings and not human. Gen 6:2,4, Job 1:6, and 2:1, Job 38:7, Psa 29:1, Psa 89:6-7, Psa 82:1, Psa 82:6-7. This was understood until the late 3rd century ad. In 2Peter 2:4, they are called 'angels' [aggelos] and they are sentenced to tarturus after they sin. In Jude 6, they are also called 'angels.' The referrent sin is to Gen 6:2, the sin of the sons of God. I'm wondering if this is an implication that they have been demoted. Jesus tells us he has placed the serpent under our feet.
Immortality is the fundamental characteristic of a divine being. When Jesus offers men the right to become sons of God in John 1, he is offering them divinity and immortality, the status of 'gods'--elohiym.
It is humanity that is meant to replace Satan and his minions as the shining ones--as Y'shuah elohiym. Satan postponed this in the garden. But he could not prevent it. And, now we have a story that makes sense, with a beginning, a middle, and an end.
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
--Heb 12
We see the word 'howl' used in Isaiah 13.. So if the word was meant to be howl, it seems they would have used the word they used in the chapter before. It's not like this was an unknown word in the Hebrew.
6Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. [Isa 13]
"howl"
H3213
ילל
yâlal
yaw-lal'
A primitive root; to howl (with a wailing tone) or yell (with a boisterous one): - (make to) howl, be howling.
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 10:09:32 AM
Lucifer is only used once in the King James Bible. Jesus is never referred to as Lucifer. Nor does Jesus fit into the context of Isa 14. You know that, ww.
I never said that. I only said there are articles that (try to) prove that.
QuoteJesus is not a bearer of light. He is light. He is the light of the world.
Yes and no.
Yes: He was/is the light.
No: HS is the light. Jesus brought (bearer) that Light.
So in that context I see no problem calling Jesus light bearer.
But.... that does NOT mean I'm saying that Isa verse is about Jesus.
QuoteThe idea of a star as producing its own very bright light is what is important here.
Venus is planet that at best reflects light like the moon. It doesn't have light of itself like a star. In a way reflection can eb seen as 'bearing' perhaps....
My whole point is and was that Lucifer is Latin. And that word with 100% certainty means light bringer/bearer.
But ofcourse the Bible wasn't originally written in Latin.
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 12:54:28 PM
We see the word 'howl' used in Isaiah 13.. So if the word was meant to be howl, it seems they would have used the word they used in the chapter before. It's not like this was an unknown word in the Hebrew.
I would like to see teh Hebrew word for Howl and light bringer.
If those words are very similar and the original documents teh Bible was translated from were in bad condition that may have caused the misunderstanding.
Or.... just corruption due to pagan influence...
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2011, 03:01:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 12:54:28 PM
We see the word 'howl' used in Isaiah 13.. So if the word was meant to be howl, it seems they would have used the word they used in the chapter before. It's not like this was an unknown word in the Hebrew.
I would like to see teh Hebrew word for Howl and light bringer.
If those words are very similar and the original documents teh Bible was translated from were in bad condition that may have caused the misunderstanding.
Or.... just corruption due to pagan influence...
Take a look at the two words, howl and heylel, in Hebrew. If they were both written out, there is no way you would mistake them. But, if part of heylel were missing then it's possible, I guess, although at that point, you would be guessing anyways.
Ithought Lucifer was just a made up word but what's important is that this translator was looking for a word that would make a good name, and also descriptive of the brightness of the morning star.. So he considered that word a name for someone who is also described as son of the morning--ben shachar.
Like I said, other translators used morning star, shining star, day star, star of the morning, and shining one--for heylel.
None of those mean 'light bearer'.
I think 'shining one' is the best myself. :winkgrin:
QuoteIthought Lucifer was just a made up word but what's important is that this translator was looking for a word that would make a good name, and also descriptive of the brightness of the morning star.. So he considered that word a name for someone who is also described as son of the morning--ben shachar.
I can also say Lucifer is good translation because it does mean morning star.
Later, church gave Lucifer the meaning of satan or devil. At
that point things went wrong. Perfect translation, corrupted defenition.
Basicly teh same problem as hell. Hell is a good translation for sheol. Both mean unseen (or similar). But
later church started to add torture, fire and demons to that hell.
הילל
hêylêl
BDB Definition:
Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (figuratively)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: from H1984 (in the sense of brightness)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 499a
ילל
yâlal
BDB Definition:
1) (Hiphil) to howl, wail, make a howling
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 868
1 letter difference. At least in the lexicons the satan part is not a primary meaning.
It is my opinion that a lot of people who say they believe in I AM, offer far to much recognition to the adversary. :sigh:
And remember these are the same translators who gave us "hell" "for ever." IF Lamsa is correct that the misunderstanding is in the Aramaic and Hebrew problem solved; whether we can understand the use of "howl" in Isa.14 I dont know, but I believe that if one took that path as diligently as some believe that "lucifer" is correct , we may know more. I just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew. As far as it is for me I do not like the idea of changing the word "adversary" and giving it a proper name like "satan." Seems to me there is/was a lot of "leading to water" in the translations.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2011, 06:23:08 PM
QuoteIthought Lucifer was just a made up word but what's important is that this translator was looking for a word that would make a good name, and also descriptive of the brightness of the morning star.. So he considered that word a name for someone who is also described as son of the morning--ben shachar.
I can also say Lucifer is good translation because it does mean morning star.
Later, church gave Lucifer the meaning of satan or devil. At that point things went wrong. Perfect translation, corrupted defenition.
Basicly teh same problem as hell. Hell is a good translation for sheol. Both mean unseen (or similar). But later church started to add torture, fire and demons to that hell.
well I happen to believe that passage in Isa 14 is referring to Satan. So from my point of view, the church didn't go wrong. It doesn't matter to me what you call him, Lucifer or Shining One.
Quote from: MicahI just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew :dontknow:
The Latin word is not thrown smack dab into the middle of Hebrew. It is thrown smack dab into the middle of
English by the King James translators who liked the name. We have plenty of English words that come from Latin.
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: MicahI just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew :dontknow:
The Latin word is not thrown smack dab into the middle of Hebrew. It is thrown smack dab into the middle of English by the King James translators who liked the name. We have plenty of English words that come from Latin.
Whatever, its a square circle in the midst of round holes.
And I repeat
It is my opinion that a lot of people who say they believe in I AM, offer far to much recognition to the adversary. :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: MicahI just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew :dontknow:
The Latin word is not thrown smack dab into the middle of Hebrew. It is thrown smack dab into the middle of English by the King James translators who liked the name. We have plenty of English words that come from Latin.
Whatever, its a square circle in the midst of round holes.
And I repeat It is my opinion that a lot of people who say they believe in I AM, offer far to much recognition to the adversary. :sigh:
And, a lot of people give too little recognition. For me, I like to keep track of roaring lions who consider me lunch.
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
--1Peter 5:8
What's in a name?
One person says they believe in the I AM and thay are referring to their own being
Another person speaks of believing in the I AM and they are speaking of the one true invisible almighty Creator- YHWH
Quote from: eaglesway on August 01, 2011, 07:48:34 PM
What's in a name?
One person says they believe in the I AM and thay are referring to their own being
Another person speaks of believing in the I AM and they are speaking of the one true invisible almighty Creator- YHWH
My opinion was refering to the later. But you are very correct, one can say they believe in God and refer to Baal. So I believe you are correct.....What's in a name, but I believe there is a power in I AM and I dont speak of myself.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: MicahI just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew :dontknow:
The Latin word is not thrown smack dab into the middle of Hebrew. It is thrown smack dab into the middle of English by the King James translators who liked the name. We have plenty of English words that come from Latin.
Whatever, its a square circle in the midst of round holes.
And I repeat It is my opinion that a lot of people who say they believe in I AM, offer far to much recognition to the adversary. :sigh:
That's amusing, coming from a guy who says lucifer is God, not understanding fully what he even says.
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2011, 08:57:28 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: MicahI just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew :dontknow:
The Latin word is not thrown smack dab into the middle of Hebrew. It is thrown smack dab into the middle of English by the King James translators who liked the name. We have plenty of English words that come from Latin.
Whatever, its a square circle in the midst of round holes.
And I repeat It is my opinion that a lot of people who say they believe in I AM, offer far to much recognition to the adversary. :sigh:
That's amusing, coming from a guy who says lucifer is God, not understanding fully what he even says.
Dont remember saying "a guy who says lucifer is God," but I will say that is sure seems that there is a lot of reference to lucifer as being very close to having such a great amount of power that one would think he could at sometime overpower the Creator. I know that the adversary is refered to as "he" can anyone lead me to where in the Bible it says or shows how the adversary is a "he" rather than say "it?"
We had another Lucifer thread here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/lucifer_fact_or_fiction_9047.msg112309.html#msg112309
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2011, 08:57:28 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: MicahI just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew :dontknow:
The Latin word is not thrown smack dab into the middle of Hebrew. It is thrown smack dab into the middle of English by the King James translators who liked the name. We have plenty of English words that come from Latin.
Whatever, its a square circle in the midst of round holes.
And I repeat It is my opinion that a lot of people who say they believe in I AM, offer far to much recognition to the adversary. :sigh:
That's amusing, coming from a guy who says lucifer is God, not understanding fully what he even says.
Dont remember saying "a guy who says lucifer is God," but I will say that is sure seems that there is a lot of reference to lucifer as being very close to having such a great amount of power that one would think he could at sometime overpower the Creator. I know that the adversary is refered to as "he" can anyone lead me to where in the Bible it says or shows how the adversary is a "he" rather than say "it?"
You said "maybe Lucifer is Gods name".
But
what if the devil is the adversary, but what does that change in terms of his/its power?
Isn't an adversary an adversary?
what's in a name?
when the real I AM STANDS UP....ALL THE OTHER IMPOSTERS ARE DISSOLVED! 2 Peter 3;10
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2011, 09:52:42 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 09:30:54 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 01, 2011, 08:57:28 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 07:10:45 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: MicahI just dont understand why the translators threw a Latin word smack dab in the middle of Hebrew :dontknow:
The Latin word is not thrown smack dab into the middle of Hebrew. It is thrown smack dab into the middle of English by the King James translators who liked the name. We have plenty of English words that come from Latin.
Whatever, its a square circle in the midst of round holes.
And I repeat It is my opinion that a lot of people who say they believe in I AM, offer far to much recognition to the adversary. :sigh:
That's amusing, coming from a guy who says lucifer is God, not understanding fully what he even says.
Dont remember saying "a guy who says lucifer is God," but I will say that is sure seems that there is a lot of reference to lucifer as being very close to having such a great amount of power that one would think he could at sometime overpower the Creator. I know that the adversary is refered to as "he" can anyone lead me to where in the Bible it says or shows how the adversary is a "he" rather than say "it?"
You said "maybe Lucifer is Gods name".
But
what if the devil is the adversary, but what does that change in terms of his/its power?
Isn't an adversary an adversary?
If I said that I was refering to what the supposed meaning is. I aplogize. The devil(accuser-traducer) is the adversary. The word "satan" means "adversary."
Quote from: sheila on August 01, 2011, 10:04:09 PM
what's in a name?
when the real I AM STANDS UP....ALL THE OTHER IMPOSTERS ARE DISSOLVED! 2 Peter 3;10
I believe quite a bit is in a name. Rev 2:17 He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming, I will give to him to eat from the hidden manna, and will give to him a white stone, and upon the stone a
new name written, that no one knew except him who is receiving it .
Rev 3:12 He who is overcoming--I will make him a pillar in the sanctuary of my God, and without he may not go any more, and I will write upon him the
name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, that doth come down out of the heaven from my God-
-also my new name.
Isa 62:2 And nations have seen thy righteousness, And all kings thine honour, And He is giving to thee
a new name, That the mouth of Jehovah doth define. Isa 66:22 For, as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making, Are standing before Me,
An affirmation of Jehovah! So remain doth your seed and your name.
Quote from: MicahI know that the adversary is referred to as "he" can anyone lead me to where in the Bible it says or shows how the adversary is a "he" rather than say "it?"
I just did, but since you ignore everything I have to say, why would I give you more?
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil.
He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
--1Peter 5:8
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of
his schemes.[2Cor:2:11
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 10:37:50 PM
Quote from: MicahI know that the adversary is referred to as "he" can anyone lead me to where in the Bible it says or shows how the adversary is a "he" rather than say "it?"
I just did, but since you ignore everything I have to say, why would I give you more?
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
--1Peter 5:8
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.[2Cor:2:11
That is not my wonder, HOW, WHERE did it come ABOUT to be "he?"
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 10:43:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 10:37:50 PM
Quote from: MicahI know that the adversary is referred to as "he" can anyone lead me to where in the Bible it says or shows how the adversary is a "he" rather than say "it?"
I just did, but since you ignore everything I have to say, why would I give you more?
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
--1Peter 5:8
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.[2Cor:2:11
That is not my wonder, HOW, WHERE did it come ABOUT to be "he?"
Through the successive revelation of the NT, I would say, because that is where it happened. The OT is vague on such matters, although one could intuit Satan is a 'he' even in the OT.
male and female....God and Jerusalem Above, Christ and NEW Jerusalem....Satn and Babylon...always male female counterparts
Spirit[male..created first] soul[female..taken as portion from spirit..formed into soul so,Babylon is of satan and satans wife...and fornicates with
the kings of the earth..and is drunk on the blood of all mankind
I'm starting to think it's too horrifying for most people to bear. So they ignore, water it down.
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
--Rev 17:6
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 11:05:07 PM
I'm starting to think it's too horrifying for most people to bear. So they ignore, water it down.
I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
--Rev 17:6
Wide-spread literal martyrdom? I'd guess some see it more as symbolic..
Drunk everyday of the year. Astonishing.
www.magnificat.ca/cal/engl/main.htm
I don't see it as symbolic,Jabcat. That's why He says give her a double portion of her own cup ....and they are the twice dead
I am probably naive or unlearned, but when Shelia(especially Shelia) and Molly confer, I am lost as to what they are talking about. Its just me I am sure, I am just unaware of what they are saying. Im sorry if I offend, its not that I mean to, I just dont understand.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 07:53:31 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 01, 2011, 07:48:34 PM
What's in a name?
One person says they believe in the I AM and thay are referring to their own being
Another person speaks of believing in the I AM and they are speaking of the one true invisible almighty Creator- YHWH
My opinion was refering to the later. But you are very correct, one can say they believe in God and refer to Baal. So I believe you are correct.....What's in a name, but I believe there is a power in I AM and I dont speak of myself.
Yea I agree with that Micah. I love the "I AM That I AM" because it means "I AM An ABSOLUTE BEING, the same THROUGH and THROUGH. My purposes do not change. I AM your REDEEMER. I AM your CREATOR. I AM the one who formed you from the dust of the earth and breathed the breath of life into you. I AM going to become ALL THAT I AM IN EVERYONE BECAUSE I WANT TO. It is my KIND INTENTION, my GOOD WILL towards men, MY GOOD NEWS :o)
Come unto me all that labor and are heavy laden for I am meek and lowly of heart and you will find rest. Come all you who thirst, drink freely of the water of life.
Come, take up your cross, let death reform you into an absolute being- a being FULL OF LOVE ;o)
God H430 'ĕlôhı̂ym Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; From H43o 'ĕlôahh 'ĕlôahh a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.
A god is what or who YOU want it to be. I believe that Genesis chapter one should read "The beginning I AM created, " God as a word is whatever one desires it is a mystery. Jesus said Joh 1:18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
We have no idea who or what "god" is.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 01, 2011, 10:43:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 01, 2011, 10:37:50 PM
Quote from: MicahI know that the adversary is referred to as "he" can anyone lead me to where in the Bible it says or shows how the adversary is a "he" rather than say "it?"
I just did, but since you ignore everything I have to say, why would I give you more?
Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.
--1Peter 5:8
in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.[2Cor:2:11
That is not my wonder, HOW, WHERE did it come ABOUT to be "he?"
Keep in mind that some things have a gender. A ship clearly is a thing but it's called a she.
Adam would observe whatever creature God would bring..knowing the characters of it..he would name it. For instance a duck..so named..
means 'to immerse' To know and name something meant to hold dominion over it Now,the serpent was more craftly than any beast of the feild God had made
crafty=subtly deceitful
Note,Jesus asked the spirit'what is your name?' We are many..like the many who took the broad path...and the many He died for the sins of.
the signifigance of receiving a name that only you knew..was that no other created thing would hold dominance over you. FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD
also,the new name denotes the new nature in you
30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Maybe the angels are asexual.
Maybe they are male and female but they just don't marry.
Maybe "he" is the default setting for any sentient "it" with a personality(in other words, its a language thing).
Maybe they are all "He"s (Michael, Gabriel etc.)
Maybe it is unknowable at this time- one big MAYBE
Well,Eagle's way..satan and babylon have done a lot of work to pervert the roles of the sexes..even convincing men they are a woman in a man's body..
perverting the natural use of the female...to bear offspring...These roles are set forever. When one of the female angels from heaven appear to you,you will no longer
wonder. Babylon's female spirits will visit at night and incite lust in men..when Father's female spirit's/daughters visit you will converse of Holy chaste things...
succubus and incubus...are the evil contrast of the virgins of heaven
Quote from: sheila on August 02, 2011, 06:18:20 PM
Well,Eagle's way..satan and babylon have done a lot of work to pervert the roles of the sexes..even convincing men they are a woman in a man's body..
perverting the natural use of the female...to bear offspring...These roles are set forever. When one of the female angels from heaven appear to you,you will no longer
wonder. Babylon's female spirits will visit at night and incite lust in men..when Father's female spirit's/daughters visit you will converse of Holy chaste things...
succubus and incubus...are the evil contrast of the virgins of heaven
"
satan and babylon have done a lot of work to pervert the roles of the sexes"???????
Rom 1:26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
Rom 1:28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge,
God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.
oy yeah..they were bearing the image of the corrupt one,alright...the bastard reprobate satan's very image
are you really really sure this is what you want to do? Defend satan and put all the blame on man?...Man is disciplined over it,for sure, and
appointed to die ONCE.. then the Judgement/with mercy and free gift of righteousness.BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE TWICE DEAD
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
--Rom 1
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning...This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother....1 John 3: 7-8,10 .
Quote from: sheila on August 02, 2011, 08:29:20 PM
oy yeah..they were bearing the image of the corrupt one,alright...the bastard reprobate satan's very image
are you really really sure this is what you want to do? Defend satan and put all the blame on man?...Man is disciplined over it,for sure, and
appointed to die ONCE.. then the Judgement/with mercy and free gift of righteousness.BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE TWICE DEAD
Just when did begin think that The Lord made an error it how His Creation would manifest? and I am NOT defending the adversary. There is no "blame" to put on anyone.
OOPS! I just noticed what I was about to do, I was touching on one of the taboo, sorry. :sigh:
I don't see freedom as error.
I have heard that the original sin was envy. That the devil was envious of Gods power.
Is it Gods fault if He does not let any created being, be stronger then He?
God can save them OR give them over.
God gave them over to a reprobate mind...
"gave them over"
G3860
παραδίδωμι
paradidōmi
par-ad-id'-o-mee
From G3844 and G1325; to surrender, that is, yield up, intrust, transmit: - betray, bring forth, cast, commit, deliver (up), give (over, up), hazard, put in prison, recommend.
[to a reprobate]
"mind"
G3563
νοῦς
nous
nooce
Probably from the base of G1097; the intellect, that is, mind (divine or human; in thought, feeling, or will); by implication meaning: - mind, understanding. Compare G5590.
I don't think this is talking about their own minds.
I believe God is handing them over to a divine intellect here,-- he who was a murderer and sinner from the beginning, that is, the devil. This is happening on a supernatural level.
But we have the mind of Christ.
2 Thess 2;7
FOR THE SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS IS ALREADY AT WORK,BUT THE ONE WHO NOW HOLDS IT BACK.....WILL DO SO
TIL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY...........AND THEN.....THE LAWLESS ONE....WILL BE REVEALED,
WHOM THE LORD JESUS WILL OVERTHROW WITH THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH,AND DESTROY WITH THE SPLENDOR OF HIS COMING
Now, when Jerusalem was desolated...those that rejected Christ had a powerful delusion there at the temple v10-12
THEY PERISH BECAUSE THEY REFUSE TO LOVE THE TRUTH[if you were of God,you would love me]
the 'SECRET' power of lawlessness is what I AM TRYING TO EXPOUND TO YOU...it is the very operation of demonic deceiving spirits
DO YOU KNOW THE POWER OF THESE THINGS TO INCITE LUST IN MEN....did you ever have an awakening at night of lust aroused in you?
DO YOU THINK YOUR BODY HAS A MIND OF IT"S OWN? DO YOU KNOW WHAT PUT UNDER COMPULSION MEANS? DO YOU KNOW WHAT SINS LAW IS?
THERE IS NO ERROR...HE EVEN CREATED THE WICKED ONE FOR DESTRUCTION...and man has bore that image,and paid the cost in suffering and death
if there is no blame..then why a JUDGEMENT AT ALL...if there is no accountability then why the reap what you sow principle?
WAS IT ALL IN HIS GRAND DESIGN,YES, THE EXERCIZE IN GOOD AND EVIL IN THIS EARTHLY EXISTENCE WAS NOT WITHOUT IT'S CONSEQUENCES
Sheila. :thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 02, 2011, 08:58:37 PM
Just when did begin think that The Lord made an error it how His Creation would manifest? and I am NOT defending the adversary. There is no "blame" to put on anyone.
Everything functions within the design specs. Right?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2011, 10:27:59 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 02, 2011, 08:58:37 PM
Just when did begin think that The Lord made an error it how His Creation would manifest? and I am NOT defending the adversary. There is no "blame" to put on anyone.
Everything functions within the design specs. Right?
Aint going there :bigGrin:
Do not turn your back on me. Do not reject your servant in anger. You have always been my helper. Don't leave me now; don't abandon me, O God of my salvation!
--Psa 27:9
Because you are my help, I sing in the shadow of your wings. [Psa 63:7]
Isaaih 30;19
O people of Zion,who live in Jerusalem,you will weep no more.How gracious He will be to you when you cry for help! As soon as He hears He
will answer you.Although the Lord give you the bread of adversity[satan/adversary] and the waters of affliction[floodwaters of dragon]
YOUR TEACHERS WILL BE HIDDEN NO MORE,WITH YOUR OWN EYES YOU WILL SEE THEM.Whether you turn to the right or to the left,you will
hear a voice behind you,saying,'THIS IS THE WAY,WALK IN IT" Then you will defile your idols overlaid with silver and your images,covered
with gold,you will throw them away like a filthy rag,and say 'AWAY WITH YOU"
The identity of Lucifer revealed
..and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. - II Thes. 2:3,4
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. - Is. 14:12-14
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a BEAR, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. - Rev. 13:1-5
Isiah talks about Lucifer weaking the nations.
In secret societies they are preparing for Lucifer.
Some say Isiah is talking about king of Babylon. A fitting answer since King of Babylon is a type of shadow of the antichrist, might even be his spirit.
Isaaih 26;19
BUT YOUR DEAD WILL LIVE[BEAST THAT COME UP OUT OF EARTH IN IMAGE OF SATAN/Babylon rides] THEIR BODIES WILL RISE.YOU WHO DWELL IN THE DUST
WAKE UP,AND SHOUT FOR JOY!! YOUR DEW IS LIKE THE DEW OF THE MORNING THE EARTH WILL GIVE BIRTH TO HER DEAD
Rev 13 the beast out of the sea[leviathan] v 13
Rev 20; the sea gave up the dead that were in it,and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them,and each person was judged according to what
he had done
man in corrupt image..is beast out of earth and beast in the water...spiritually dead to God...BUT LOOK...THEY MUST GIVE THEM UP!!!
When Saul goes to the witch of ob to request that she rise up Samuel from the grave, this happens:
12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
--1 Sam 28
"gods"
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Are these the sons of God from Gen 6 and 2Peter and Jude who transgressed and were reserved in Tarturus?
yes,it is the resurrection of the wicked and the righteous......any man who dies is resurrected and counted withthe righteous..due to Christ's sacrifice..1st ressurection
man's spirit returns to God....but the evil spirits always return to the earth to rise again..on another man....now those in Noah's day....rise when satan is released
we have gods rising out of the earth[as man/sons of God returning to heaven] and we have wicked spirits that seek another house[body/temple]
to dwell in.....and when they do..they make man in their image..as a beast coming out of the earth...with the biggest witch of all on it's back/Babylon]
maybe this will shed a little light :laughing7:
NET © Notes from Isaiah 14:12
1 tn The Hebrew text has הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, "Helel son of Shachar"), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon. See HALOT 245 s.v. הֵילֵל.
sn What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12-15? This whole section (vv. 4b-21) is directed to the king of Babylon, who is clearly depicted as a human ruler. Other kings of the earth address him in vv. 9ff., he is called "the man" in v. 16, and, according to vv. 19-20, he possesses a physical body. Nevertheless the language of vv. 12-15 has led some to see a dual referent in the taunt song. These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld. The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur. Some Christians have seen an allusion to the fall of Satan here, but this seems contextually unwarranted (see J. Martin, "Isaiah," BKCOT, 1061).
2 tn Some understand the verb to from חָלַשׁ (khalash, "to weaken"), but HALOT 324 s.v. II חלשׁ proposes a homonym here, meaning "to defeat."
3 sn In this line the taunting kings hint at the literal identity of the king, after likening him to the god Helel and a tree. The verb גָדַע (gada', "cut down") is used of chopping down trees in 9:10 and 10:33.
notes from 2 Pet 1:19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
sn The reference to the morning star constitutes a double entendre. First, the term was normally used to refer to Venus. But the author of course has a metaphorical meaning in mind, as is obvious from the place where the morning star is to rise – "in your hearts." Most commentators see an allusion to Num 24:17 ("a star shall rise out of Jacob") in Peter's words. Early Christian exegesis saw in that passage a prophecy about Christ's coming. Hence, in this verse Peter tells his audience to heed the OT scriptures which predict the return of Christ, then alludes to one of the passages that does this very thing, all the while running the theme of light on a parallel track. In addition, it may be significant that Peter's choice of terms here is not the same as is found in the LXX. He has used a Hellenistic word that was sometimes used of emperors and deities, perhaps as a further polemic against the paganism of his day.
Left hand this is right hand whats going on?
How does the morning star go from being satan in the OT to Christ in the NT?
old man/new man in Christ....venus..the goddess of LOVE...Babylon has her own brand of 'love' which is really lust to kill/... when she is destroyed
the real goddess of Love can rise in your heart[SOS 1;4 We rejoice and delight in you,we will praise your love more than wine[of fornication of Babylon]
Quote from: sheila on August 02, 2011, 08:29:20 PM
oy yeah..they were bearing the image of the corrupt one,alright...the bastard reprobate satan's very image
are you really really sure this is what you want to do? Defend satan and put all the blame on man?...Man is disciplined over it,for sure, and
appointed to die ONCE.. then the Judgement/with mercy and free gift of righteousness.BUT THERE ARE THOSE WHO ARE TWICE DEAD
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil,
I am Jehovah, doing all these things.' I do not defend the adversary, but I will hold the knowledge that I AM IS Lord of All. And there is not ONE thing that happens that He is not very aware of.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 03, 2011, 03:42:25 AM
maybe this will shed a little light :laughing7:
NET © Notes from Isaiah 14:12
1 tn The Hebrew text has הֵילֵל בֶּן־שָׁחַר (helel ben-shakhar, "Helel son of Shachar"), which is probably a name for the morning star (Venus) or the crescent moon. See HALOT 245 s.v. הֵילֵל.
sn What is the background for the imagery in vv. 12-15? This whole section (vv. 4b-21) is directed to the king of Babylon, who is clearly depicted as a human ruler. Other kings of the earth address him in vv. 9ff., he is called "the man" in v. 16, and, according to vv. 19-20, he possesses a physical body. Nevertheless the language of vv. 12-15 has led some to see a dual referent in the taunt song. These verses, which appear to be spoken by other pagan kings to a pagan king (cf. vv. 9-11), contain several titles and motifs that resemble those of Canaanite mythology, including references to Helel son of Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the recesses of Zaphon, and the divine title Most High. Apparently these verses allude to a mythological story about a minor god (Helel son of Shachar) who tried to take over Zaphon, the mountain of the gods. His attempted coup failed and he was hurled down to the underworld. The king of Babylon is taunted for having similar unrealized delusions of grandeur. Some Christians have seen an allusion to the fall of Satan here, but this seems contextually unwarranted (see J. Martin, "Isaiah," BKCOT, 1061).
2 tn Some understand the verb to from חָלַשׁ (khalash, "to weaken"), but HALOT 324 s.v. II חלשׁ proposes a homonym here, meaning "to defeat."
3 sn In this line the taunting kings hint at the literal identity of the king, after likening him to the god Helel and a tree. The verb גָדַע (gada', "cut down") is used of chopping down trees in 9:10 and 10:33.
notes from 2 Pet 1:19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
sn The reference to the morning star constitutes a double entendre. First, the term was normally used to refer to Venus. But the author of course has a metaphorical meaning in mind, as is obvious from the place where the morning star is to rise – "in your hearts." Most commentators see an allusion to Num 24:17 ("a star shall rise out of Jacob") in Peter's words. Early Christian exegesis saw in that passage a prophecy about Christ's coming. Hence, in this verse Peter tells his audience to heed the OT scriptures which predict the return of Christ, then alludes to one of the passages that does this very thing, all the while running the theme of light on a parallel track. In addition, it may be significant that Peter's choice of terms here is not the same as is found in the LXX. He has used a Hellenistic word that was sometimes used of emperors and deities, perhaps as a further polemic against the paganism of his day.
Left hand this is right hand whats going on?
How does the morning star go from being satan in the OT to Christ in the NT?
Morning Stars
"Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? "On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
(Job 38:4-7)
Perhaps there was a time when ALL the morning stars sang together, but we know that at some point they sang together no longer
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
(Jud 1:6)
but even then they were still the sons of God
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
(Job 1:6-7)
the prince of this world clothes himself as an angel of light to deceive, but we are the light to redeem his darkness
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
(Eph 3:8-11)
But in the meantime,
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2Co 4:3-4)
Thats why the weapons of our warfare are not natural, as we bring every thought into captivity to Jesus, when our obedience is complete He will bring about their obedience also.
Evil men and seducers will wax worse ans worse deceiving and being deceived, but we will rise like the dew of the morning as the day approaches,
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince(archon) of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
(Eph 2:1-2)
the disobedient sons, and some of them were stars too
Context is everything......we have to look at ALL the scriptures concerning the subject, then maybe we can see through a glass darkly :o)
Quote from: eagleswayTo the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
(Eph 3:8-11)
This is one of the mysteries that has been made known to the saints in these last days.
8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
--Eph 3
This is what we share--
"the fellowship"G2842
κοινωνία
koinōniakoy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844;
partnership, that is, (literally)
participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation),
communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
[of the]
"mystery"G3466
μυστήριον
mustērionmoos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō
(to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery"
(through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
I have seen some say that son of the morning star has been translated incorrectly. That the proper term is son of the dawn.
If this be true, it does makes sense. That this beast ruler, is the son of a new age, or light bearer, dawn of a new world, a new order.
SATAN ALWAYS ATTEMPTS TO CHANGE TIMES...AND OFFERS A COUNTERFEIT......HITLER WITH HIS 1000 YR REGIME........
NEW WORLD ORDER....MUSLIM'S GRASPING WORLD DOMINION AND RELIGIOUS RULE
http://jacobisrael71.wordpress.com/category/who-is-lucifer-really/
SATAN is not a MAN. —- Lucifer is a MAN.
Satan is a SPIRIT —- Lucifer's flesh is eaten by worms. (FLESH not SPIRIT)
Satan never had TRUTH (Murderer/LIAR from the BEGINNING) — Lucifer once had the TRUTH
This last point is our "DEAD" giveaway.
LUCIFER is a MAN that FELL in the GARDEN, because HE WANTED TO BE GOD.
Now doesn't that sound like another MAN, we know, that God created to be his express image on earth? ADAM, perhaps?
Did not ADAM the MAN, exalt himself by eating the fruit of the tree that SATAN (who was a liar from the beginning) tempted Eve with.
Did not ADAM clearly disobey God and FALL out of HEAVEN (PARADISE), as we are told Lucifer did?
I know what some will say... The GARDEN isn't HEAVEN. But they will ALSO say, the GARDEN is PARADISE... Then they will go onto say when Jesus spoke to the thief on the Cross "today you will be with me in PARADISE" Jesus was speaking of Heaven. So which is it people. You can't agree with something and then disagree in the same breath.
James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Let's take a look at what the SERPENT said to EVE. And remember the SERPENT lied from the BEGINNING. He was more subtle (devious) than any other creature.
Satan said to EVE, "If you eat of this tree YOU SHALL BE LIKE GOD" –
______________________________________________________
If Lucifer is Adam then I see no problem with calling him the daystar, and also calling Christ the second Adam the daystar
the spirit of the adversary entering man...is the man of sin[son of perdition... that slays the spirit of Christ.in man.
God declares the end in the beginning...when satan was in heaven..he was named the dragon...when he took the body of the serpent..
he was named the original serpent..when he took the body of animals..he was called beast..and when he took the flesh of man...
he was named..man of sin.....and finally we know him as a mere tool....used to provide the 'evil' in this good and evil exercize....
SEE HIM FALL, LOWER AND LOWER AND LOWER....O' ARROGANT ONE
You seem to be very sociable in giving the adversary more power than the adversary is worth. The son of perdition is the very carnal nature of mankind.
read and see....Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart:It is on account of the sons of humanity That the One, Elohim, seeks to manifest them And to show them that they themselves are beasts."
Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of the sons of humanity And the destiny of the beast, It is one destiny for them; As death is for this one, so is death for that one, And one spirit is for all; There is no advantage for the human over the beast, For the whole is vanity."
Can you not see that mankind has always thought so much more of himself than he is? Mankind without Jesus's death is is no more than a beast who will die and return to dust and that breath/spirit, that motivates mans breathing to walk in the creation of The Creator.
Quote
This is what we share--
"the fellowship"
G2842
κοινωνία
koinōnia
koy-nohn-ee'-ah
From G2844; partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.
[of the] "mystery"
G3466
μυστήριον
mustērion
moos-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of μύω muō (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites): - mystery.
Yeaaaah
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 08:55:06 AM
Mankind without Jesus's death is
...no more than cancer cells in a Petri dish.
for lack of knowledge MY PEOPLE PERISH.....now,when Adam was given dominion..he first had to observe/know the qualities of the 'animal'..then name it.....
now..it is time we reveal this adversary..his godlessness,rebellion. and subtilness. In the time of the fulfilling of Revelations....every hidden thing is to be revealed
and laid bare.It is time the children of God know how to 'handle' serpents. a mere infant shall place it's hand in the nest of the cobra and NOT be harmed
Isaaih 10;12-14
Now,I speak of the HOLY MOUNTAIN...but if you are a beast you can not even touch the mountain
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 04, 2011, 08:55:06 AM
You seem to be very sociable in giving the adversary more power than the adversary is worth. The son of perdition is the very carnal nature of mankind.
read and see....Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart:It is on account of the sons of humanity That the One, Elohim, seeks to manifest them And to show them that they themselves are beasts."
Ecc 3:19 For the destiny of the sons of humanity And the destiny of the beast, It is one destiny for them; As death is for this one, so is death for that one, And one spirit is for all; There is no advantage for the human over the beast, For the whole is vanity."
Can you not see that mankind has always thought so much more of himself than he is? Mankind without Jesus's death is is no more than a beast who will die and return to dust and that breath/spirit, that motivates mans breathing to walk in the creation of The Creator.
(sorry I don't mean to twist your word micah, just this popped in my mind when I saw your post)
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
humans die just as demons?
But Christ helps us live.
is it not written in your law'ye are gods' yet,you will die like one of the princes
Quote from: sheila on August 04, 2011, 06:56:43 PM
is it not written in your law'ye are gods' yet,you will die like one of the princes
Interesting.
I wonder what type of death He means.
Quote from: sheila on August 04, 2011, 06:47:00 PM
for lack of knowledge MY PEOPLE PERISH.....now,when Adam was given dominion..he first had to observe/know the qualities of the 'animal'..then name it.....
now..it is time we reveal this adversary..his godlessness,rebellion. and subtilness. In the time of the fulfilling of Revelations....every hidden thing is to be revealed
and laid bare.It is time the children of God know how to 'handle' serpents. a mere infant shall place it's hand in the nest of the cobra and NOT be harmed
Isaaih 10;12-14
Now,I speak of the HOLY MOUNTAIN...but if you are a beast you can not even touch the mountain
:thumbsup:
For this reason He said,YE OFFSPRING OF VIPERS!! WHO WILL SAVE YOU FROM THE FIRE OF GEHENNA.....
now this sis the distinction of judgement......man is appointed to die once...demons twice[lake of fire] BECAUSE OF OUR SAVIOUR
THE VERY MERCY OF GOD