Gospel Of Thomas 44

[jabcat]

There are always lessons, but IMO, context is critical.  For example, in the account of Him telling Noah to build the Ark, God surely may have a lesson for me about preparing, believing Him, trusting Him, following His commands etc. ...but I don't believe He would have me go out and start on my own literal ark, believing He's going to send a flood  :wink:.  Well, that's the way I understand it, anyhoo.  To whom, what, and why...God's blessing, James.

[WhiteWings]

Don't bet on that Jabcat  :laughing7:
Where I live it hasn't stopped raining ever since....
The question is if teh Ark story is only about the flood.
The ark had special measurements. Special degin that ought to represent the human body.
So there always seem to be hidden meanings.

Anyway I'm going to unship all those animals right now.
Perhaps thats best for them fish anyway because the keep dying on me  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

Oh I agree, there are many layers I sure don't understand...however (and I'm no scholar brother) there often seems to be a primary subject and primary meaning, then many other layers for our instruction and edification.  One thing about this particular topic is, Jesus said Himself that He came (which I understand to mean His earthly ministry) only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.  And when He spoke of the "unpardonable sin", it was to those corrupt Jewish leaders that He spoke.  Same idea as I understand it with Laz and the rich dude.  Anyway, OK, I've said enough on this for now.  We'll all see it exactly the same someday, right? :happygrin:.  And get out your umbrella and rubber boots!  James.

[martincisneros]

Somehow...every letter is a lesson for everyone that will ever exist.

Amen :cloud9: :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob:  Every letter still foretells the future, as well as reveals every second of the past.  It's the Book by which angels, the world, and all of Creation will be judged and set in their proper divine order.  If there's ever another Lucifer to fall (allow the analogy those of you that are puritans about that), it'll be the very Book we'll pull out to remedy the situation.  It's Law, Legal Precident, and absolutely everything that we'll ever know quadrillions upon quadrillions of years from now is already within it's pages.  These are eternal principles and eternal analogies because love will both never fail and never change.  It's never dawned on most of the people that come to this website, but the Book is what we're becoming.  Each person's view of the Book invariably and inevitably is their view of themselves if you probe them far enough about their understanding of the nature and spirit of the Word.  It goes hand in hand that as their view of the Book changes, from their time sitting at the feet of each of it's pages, their view of themselves changes and grows in conformity with their Vision produced by the spirit and the word that they're immersed in.

[martincisneros]

I'll deflect attention from my previous post by saying something that many that come to these boards may find even more heretical than my previous post.  This may mess with some people for the rest of the year, so this is your final warning to take a step back and not read the rest of this post if you've got any thoughts in the back of your mind that some things might be too deep for you at your present season.  This is one of those chokers for anyone that needs a final warning to not read one word further, but to click away.

We'll all see it exactly the same someday, right? :happygrin:

This will never be the case.  Never.  We'll all ultimately know where each of us are coming from and things won't get lost in the translation through the present limitations of our native mortal languages that have been courtesy of the Tower of Babel incident.  But we're the Body of Christ.  Though we'll each come to the unity of the faith and the unity of knowledge of the Son of God, according to Ephesians 4, we're each still members of the Body.  Will an elbow ever fully share the same perspective as a nose, a tongue, or a toe?  If each of us were created differently to express His image differently and with unique gifts that fit our destinies, personalities, DNA, desires, profitability in the Kingdom, etc., with additional desires and giftings emerging into their full maturity in future ages, and if we're each growing in proportion to the Location, Water, Sun, Pruning, Fertilizer, Fruit we bare, and the insects and predators that we're standing our ground in the midst of, then why in a Kingdom Whose increase shall never end would we ever arrive at being a perfect photo copy of each other? 

Conformity with the image of Jesus Christ is conformity with being restored humanity.  It's doing things the exact same way that God our Father does: with His Blessing, His Word, faith, His Blood, and the Anointing.  It's not being a photo copy of Jesus to where if green were His favorite color and raisin bran His favorite food that at the regeneration of all things we'd have no individuality and variety on those nonessentials to being One with His nature, conformed to His ultimate purposes, and knowing as we're known because love has been perfected in us through our abiding in Him and His Word abiding in us.  I'm me and you're you.  I'm never going to be anyone other than myself and you're never going to be anyone but yourself.  The only difference in the future is that limitations won't be present in our ability to understand one another, in our ability to live at peace with one another, and life won't be a constant combat to keep the mind renewed and every care cast upon Him.  What we've had in our hearts that's caused them to soar will permanently be shared by our bodies, brains, circumstances, attitudes, relationships, resources, and what we'll each create after the last Jezabel, Judas, Ahab, Barabbas, Cain, Pharoah, and Nimrod of this present creation has been returned to Father by Christ Jesus.

But the differences between each of us will continue to become more pronounced as the ages unfold "as star differs from star in glory."  But contrary to this present demonic age, what'll make the coming ages different is that our differences will no longer be magnified in our eyes by the devil with hate.  Our heavenly Father wants to create an even bigger set of universes in the future than what presently exist.  Each of our gifts and their administrative potentials will continue to grow and expand from age to age until the full weight of His glory is expressed exceedingly, abundantly, above and beyond all that we could ask, think, imagine, or yearn for, with our worship and thanksgiving growing towards Him abundantly beyond our deepest groans at present.  Don't make the mistake in thinking that getting everybody Home either exhausts the extent of God's wisdom and power or the wisdom, patience, and capacities that He's developing in each of us.  Everything that we're learning right now is JUST THE BEGINNING :Sparkletooth:

[jabcat]

I don't find it heretical, and do find it interesting.  You may be right.  But while I'm thinking of possible scriptural connections with my statement (which may mostly just be the traditional POV), what scripture (at least in part) is your understanding based on or at least backed with?  In other words, what'choo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

[martincisneros]

I got so far out there, into such an out of body experience with that last post of mine, that I had to shut it down when/where I did and make sure that I wasn't in violation of 2John 9.  But the Lord reminded me of Isaiah 9, the all in all statements of the New Testament, particularly the one that concludes Ephesians 1 about the Body being the fullness of Him that filleth all in all: that filling of all in all would change galactic coordinates with reference to the Throne of God as the center of reality with any expansions of all that is per the statement in Isaiah 9 about the Kingdom's increase never ending.  All of the different Scriptures about the Body in St. Paul and about the seed of the Kingdom in the Gospels, particularly Mark 4 were where I was wandering around.  Ages to come in which He'll exhaustively lavish on us the exceeding riches of His grace from Ephesians 2 and 3 where it says that it'll be abundantly beyond all we can ask or think was factoring in my thinking.  St. Paul's comment in 1Corinthians 15 indicating that sowing and reaping applies to the resurrection.  Scriptures about the unchanging nature of God, Jesus' parable about being rulers over cities (which I'm not able to limit to either this life, the millenium, and the New Earth for self evident reasons because God always rewards the faithful and diligent, according to Hebrews 11:6 and countless other Scriptures that either express or illustrate that truth); connecting the dots between God's unchanging nature, the differences between resurrections in 1Corinthians 15, and again looking back to various Scriptures besides Isaiah 9 that indicate in various ways that God's plans involve things getting bigger and bigger.  And other Scriptures that I'll have to edit this post with after I've come down from this spiritual high I've been on since my last post, and after I've gotten some sleep and had time to process this experience that I've had in having written that.

[DeeDee]

Amen Brian! I love your last post. Especially the ending. It's awful, terrible, horrendous feeling like you are damned all the time! That's why it is important that we debunk the things that need debunking and read things the way they should be read. I still like the idea that the unpardonable sin is no longer commitable. That it was something unique to that time and that it was only a warning. Would love to look into that theory more.

Blessings
Dee

[WhiteWings]

Brian,

I agree with most of your reply. But want to that even the fact that the parable was used against a select group in a certain time doesn't mean it can't be put into another context. Not saying out of context.
I think the verse is still valid today because I think today there are people that are just as evil as back then.
Today we also have backslidden people.
Same crime same punishment. But IMO it is n-o-t eternal.
Not then, not now, not ever.

[WhiteWings]

I still feel the best interpretation of the unforgivable sin, is that by denying the power of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, you make it impossible for yourself to be forgiven. It's not that God won't forgive you, it's that you won't let God forgive you, that's what makes it unforgivable. It's an attitude that has to be maintained, not a one time slip of the tongue.

Brian,
I have the same opion. Plus also an aditional thought. More a general feeling I can't backup with a verse.
Tell me please if you feel the same way.
Even if you are guilty of the unpardoneble sin for say 40 years (constantly) and after that you turn towards Jesus then IMO the unforgiveble sin is forgiven immediately. Meaning in this age/life.
It's only unpardoneble if you 'take it with you' to the afterlife.

Can you agree with that interpretation?

[jabcat]

Crown/rewards as you say, and/or as Martin Zender explains it this way...he describes that to mean "our aeonian life, the reigning with Jesus for his 'thousand year' reign" then resurrected...and/or as perhaps J. Preston Eby and Thomas Kissinger describe it, as being disqualified as a Manifest Son of God, which I understand to be basically the same thing...reigning with Jesus for the first resurrection vs. being disqualified for that and being raised later.   :dontknow:...either way, apparently not about "salvation" when it's all said and done.  Good News.  God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

Puleeze forgive me :Pray:...yeah, I know, that confuses me about Paul.  I really don't understand it...if he was afraid he wasn't faithful enough, then  :help:.

[jabcat]

That's what I was thinking as well, it could all be terminology for basically the same thing...crowns/rewards could include the first resurrection/reigning with Christ.  The thing with Paul, though, that's another story...I was laying in bed before I got up thinking about it, s/w along the same lines of what you say...maybe that was him expressing what you say, sort of a "these are my concerns, I can't be lazy and quit", not that it was actually something that was likely to happen.  I don't mean to degrade the accuracy and/or intention of scripture with this, so I may be wrong...I'm not sure....it is a bit of chin scratcher, and I really think it is important...speaks to our own responsibilities and possible consequences...let me know if you get any further revelation on this...thanks, James.

P.S.  In the ET circles in which I was raised, this definitely was interpreted to mean "losing your salvation"...which, even if there is some sort of disqualification, I've got to believe that's fixed in the consummation/ultimate reconciliation.  So, it must mean something else...keep me posted.

[jabcat]

I like this explanation, I'll look at the scriptures.  Not taking the time to look up this exact reference, but I am reminded of "I am pursuaded, neither death, nor life, etc. can separate me from the Love of God"...maybe your cousin's right.  Also, good link...apostleship vs. salvation...sort of the crowns/rewards thing again...

[rosered]

 

  Great thoughts !  :icon_flower:
  Iam reminded of Jesus praying  for Peters faith that it does not fail him
  when  Satan desired to sift him like wheat  and How Jesus told him when he was converted[ turned around] to feed the lambs / sheep  and it was about how much  Peter loved Jesus Christ 
again we see Pauls confirming this in his  apostleship[ ability to reach and teach others] just as Peters  discipleship [learning and being taught the Way of Jesus Christ] is perfected /completed , that worthiness  to be able to go from faith to faith   to the Jew and Gentile  by the Laws of God from the Old  Moses /  death  to the New  covenants in Christ/Life
 

..Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,

The just shall live by faith.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

   this is a wonderful little study  , God bless you and yours!

[jabcat]

  Great thoughts !  :icon_flower:
  Iam reminded of Jesus praying  for Peters faith that it does not fail him
  when  Satan desired to sift him like wheat  and How Jesus told him when he was converted[ turned around] to feed the lambs / sheep  and it was about how much  Peter loved Jesus Christ 
again we see Pauls confirming this in his  apostleship[ ability to reach and teach others] just as Peters  discipleship [learning and being taught the Way of Jesus Christ] is perfected /completed , that worthiness  to be able to go from faith to faith   to the Jew and Gentile  by the Laws of God from the Old  Moses /  death  to the New  covenants in Christ/Life
 

..Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,

The just shall live by faith.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

   this is a wonderful little study  , God bless you and yours!

:goodpost:  Great and helpful insight here....Quote, "again we see Pauls confirming this in his  apostleship[ ability to reach and teach others] just as Peters  discipleship [learning and being taught the Way of Jesus Christ] is perfected /completed , that worthiness  to be able to go from faith to faith".  God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

Some thoughts today that have been fermenting for awhile:  I think I can reconcile some of these, but taken as a whole, still s/w problematic, and they tie into this discussion...some may have already been touched on, but lumping them here.

If (A), then how (B)?

(A) All things are lawful (though all not expedient), don't condemn self in what allow
(B) Bringing my body under subjection (much examples and detail from Paul)

(A) freedom in Christ
(B) take heed that you not fall/sin

(A) No condemnation
(B) sin, lying, hating your brother, etc., love of God is not in you/disqualified, warring with the law of my mind, leading me into captivity

(A) God tries/tests us (basanismo) as with a touchstone
(B) "let no one say from God am I undergoing trial, for God is not tried by evils, yet He is trying no one" [James 1]

(A) A seeming sense of redeemed, rejoice, live joyfully, living in liberty, total gift of God
(B) A seeming sense of be careful, be on guard, faith without works is dead, may be disqualified [even if 'disqualified' "only" has to do with rewards/sonship/apostleship, then still, how (A)?]

(A) no longer I that sin, but sin that dwells in me, no condemnation, not walking according to the flesh, Jesus frees from law of sin and death
(B)  do what I don't want to do, law of sin and death reigns in my flesh, 'o wretched man'


OK, may add to this, but it's a start...summarily, thinking about ***freedom/joy/grace/liberty***  alongside  ***works/disqualification/turning from the faith

I know the general answer for me is .... the flesh is sinful, God delivers...but does anyone else see day-to-day questions for us here?  Freedom/liberty/cast all worries on Him vs/ work, be careful, battle with the flesh....

[jabcat]

Let me bring this home.  Growing up in little Pentecostal "churches", we sang a song..."living in the liberty where Christ makes free"  and  "I am free from condemnation, for the Son has made me free".

Those were (and I grew up to be) some of the most fearful (of losing salvation), condemned, struggling to "stay saved" people I ever knew.  Many of them "backsliding", turning back to sin/the world, "giving up"  ....   As they say, "you know what I'm sayin'?"

God's blessing, James.

[jabcat]

Maybe it's all those things in the first post together.  The joy of knowing Jesus has and will take care of it all, even in the midst of the "stuff"...the verse "who will deliver me?  Thank God, Jesus".

Maybe that's a big reason of the folks I grew up with "failed" and quit...not realizing now and "in the end" Jesus has, is, will be taking care of things..in the final say, not up to us.  And there's our UR.

[rosered]

Maybe it's all those things in the first post together.  The joy of knowing Jesus has and will take care of it all, even in the midst of the "stuff"...the verse "who will deliver me?  Thank God, Jesus".

Maybe that's a big reason of the folks I grew up with "failed" and quit...not realizing now and "in the end" Jesus has, is, will be taking care of things..in the final say, not up to us.  And there's our UR.

  Amen James  the Lord is our salvation!  awesome ! good thoughts bro ....... :HeartThrob: