Hi all, I am very interested in Universalism as a Religion and think its absolutely wonderful. I must admit though that "The unpardonable sin" thing still puts a damper on it for me a bit though. I understand how the Matthew, Mark and Luke versions can be explained as not being eternal damnation (sort of) , but then today I came across the Gospel of Thomas (line 44). This version speaks of not forgiven here or in Heaven. Now I am really confused. Please help. Thanks. :sigh:
Quote from: DeeDee on November 01, 2008, 03:24:21 PM
Hi all, I am very interested in Universalism as a Religion and think its absolutely wonderful. I must admit though that "The unpardonable sin" thing still puts a damper on it for me a bit though. I understand how the Matthew, Mark and Luke versions can be explained as not being eternal damnation (sort of) , but then today I came across the Gospel of Thomas (line 44). This version speaks of not forgiven here or in Heaven. Now I am really confused. Please help. Thanks. :sigh:
Hi Dee, not sure how much weight I would put on the Gospel of Thomas, mainly because I have never read it. But if we go by the other gospels it is clear that there is no sin that is NEVER forgiven.
This is taken from my rebuttal to Matt Slick
Lets look at those same scriptures from Interlinear Original Language Texts
Amen/verily I am saying to you/to ye that all shall-be-being-from-let/shall be being pardoned to the/the sons of the humans the miss-effects/penalties of sins and the harm-averments/blasphemes as much as/whatever if ever they shall be harm-averring/the shall be blaspheming
Who yet ever should be harm-averring /should be blaspheming into the spirit the holy not is having from-letting/pardon into the eon but liable is of eonian miss-effect/penalty of the sin.
Again we can see no mention of a sin that NEVER can be forgiven. Again we see EON or AGE in place of the word NEVER and we also see that it is an EONIAN/AGE-LASTING sin, not a sin without end.
Thus Matt's case for a eternal sin falls flat, what Mk.3:28-29 is really saying is that if one blasphemes the Holy Spirit one is not forgiven in this age or in the age to come.
Note: before the death of Christ everyone was under the age of the law, after Christ death everyone is under the age of grace. It is these two ages Mark is speaking of, blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven under law, nor is it forgiven under grace, for everyone reaps what they have sown. But during the age of Judgment or as some call it the millennium age those still in sin are pruned without the gate and once the pruning is complete they have right to the tree of life as I already have shown in Rev.22.
But lets just suppose there is a sin that NEVER can be forgiven as Matt says, what would happen?
Jesus Christ is then being eternally tormented for if we do not forgive men their trespasses then neither will the Father forgive us.Mt.6:15
Therefore if Jesus does not forgive us then He is not forgiven Himself and must be then eternally tormented.
But the good news is Jesus forgave even those who crucified Him saying Father forgive them as they no not what they do.Lk.23:34
DeeDee since this is you 1st post:
Welcome to TentMaker but stay out of my laboratory!!!!
Signed your brother Dexter.
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:pbCPrwum66zLFM:http://www.natch.net/misc/0407/DEXTER.gif)
LOL! Thanks guys :Sparkletooth: The reason the whole blasphemy bit bothers me so much is that since i came across the concept in the three gospels (matt,mark,luke) its been worrying me so much that i might have said something unto the H.S when i was younger. That thought only made it worse as it started to trigger lots and lots of blasphemous thoughts unto the H.S. I was even so stupid as to let it slip to my husband what i was thinking! So i verbalised one of my thoughts!
Pneuma here is what the gospel of Thomas line 44 reads -
Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the Son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either on earth or in heaven."
God bless
Dee
Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
world = aion = age/period of time
Dee what does the heaven mean in the book of thomas?
According to the interlinier coptic version it is translated SKY not heaven
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/9068/x_transl.htm
But like I said, i don't know how much weight I would give to the gospel of Thomas, if it is a true gospel then its meaning will be the same as the other gospels and as I already pointed out NEVER be forgiven is NOT recorded in scripture.
Pneuma, thanks once again. Guess I am just so used to feeling damned (been almost two months now that I can't sleep, can't eat and I worry constantly - lost like 7kg's), that I can't stop obsessing. You are really helping me alot.
See to give you a little background info on me. I always felt really close to God and really really enjoyed my life, then a few weeks ago I was reflecting back on my life and feeling guilty so I repented and started to read the bible intensely (King James Version).
Since It's a very "poetic" version I started to look up scriptures online. Now I had never heard of anything like an unpardonable sin up to that point, so when I came upon it I was horrified! like i said I know I was a very rebelious child and I used to blaspheme members of the trinity when I got upset. I stopped doing that though and it used to make me feel really bad. I never thought anything like that could be considered unpardonable! Then came the blasphemous thoughts (mainly based on the fact that i was obsessing about did i or didnt i commit this sin) and as i said before i even verbalised one by accident to my husband to explain what i was obsessing over.
This is an amazing website and i really look forward to learning more about Christian Universalism - I still have a bit of the "is it to good to be true" syndrome since this is something i always believed in but didnt know existed.
Faith In Christ
Dee
Quote from: DeeDee on November 01, 2008, 04:37:10 PM
like i said I know I was a very rebelious child and I used to blaspheme members of the trinity when I got upset.
God doesn't care would be a bit to strong answer.
Look the people so loved by God throughout the Bible. They are seen as role models for many Christians.
Yet they don't have exatly a spotless soul. Just to name two keywords: Adultary and murder.
The apostles of Jesus wheren't exactly sinless to put it mildly. And yet Jesus trusted the with such a huge task as spreading the word of God.
Think about that!
It's a bit like Dexter and DeeDee.
Dexter gets mad when DeeDee wrecks his stuff. But still he loves her :HeartThrob:
QuoteI started to look up scriptures online. Now I had never heard of anything like an unpardonable sin up to that point, so when I came upon it I was horrified!
Hi Dee, that in itself should tell you something sis.
If there is an unpardonable sin why did you not see it by yourself, why did it take man to point it out to you?
Suppose that makes some sense :happy3:
Just for interest sake, have you ever worried that you might have committed this sin? Am I bonkers?
Quote from: DeeDee on November 03, 2008, 01:52:40 PM
Suppose that makes some sense :happy3:
Just for interest sake, have you ever worried that you might have committed this sin? Am I bonkers?
Dee I don't have to worry about if I commited this sin or not, I know that I have and I have reaped the sowing (DEATH) because of it.
Remember it not a UNFORGIVABLE SIN Dee, it a SIN that is NOT FORGIVEN until after the JUDGEMENT, or until after the ministration of death (the law) has been applied to the saving of the soul, which is our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.
Thanks again guys. It helps so much to know that others understand where I am coming from. Good news tho, I have actually gotten some sleep for two nights in a row!
You are all wonderful, wonderful people and I am so blessed to have found you all!
God Bless
Dee
Quote from: DeeDee on November 03, 2008, 03:11:58 PM
Thanks again guys. It helps so much to know that others understand where I am coming from. Good news tho, I have actually gotten some sleep for two nights in a row!
You are all wonderful, wonderful people and I am so blessed to have found you all!
God Bless
Dee
:thumbsup:
Here's a good Bible study on the supposed "Unpardonable sin." Perhaps one of the better online studies about it:
http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html (http://www.hisremnant.org/eby/articles/savior/unpardonable.html)
I've been told that J. Preston Eby's writings are really good, but I've found it difficult to get into his writings. Not sure why. I have read a couple of his pamphlets though and have enjoyed them enormously. I've read his Restitution of all things and Reconciliation in the heavenlies. And I believe that I've read his God will have all men to be saved, if it's the one that ends with the chapter on why to preach the Gospel.
DeeDee, yes I've worried about that (as well as a million other things). One thought might be, that if you had committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit;
wouldn't God have already convicted you of it and you would have already experienced that "wedge" in your relationship with Him that occurs when we are in open, sinful rebellion? Sounds like your relationship was fluid, open, and blessed. I can't say for sure for each instance, but Satan will sieze even the Word, and use the "letter" to wield as a weapon of condemnation against you, with the hope of ruining your joy and close communion with the Father..
also, wouldn't you be in such a debased state the YOU WOULDN"T CARE that you had blasphemed? Sometimes (personal experience) our own carnal mind can latch onto something and then just obsess and ruminate with excessive worry, which we're told is not of God.
As part of Martin's tag line says, "Casting all your worries on Him, for He cares for you."
Jesus, visit your dear child and sister right now, give her peace that passes all understanding...and comfort, in Jesus' name..so be it.
God's blessings, James
My question has been, why do UR people still call it the unpardonable sin?
If all sin is eventually forgiven, it is not possible for it to be unpardonable. Even in the Doctrine of eternal punishment the term is questionable because the bible specifies a time frame and we are only left with the silence of the bible concerning a declaration that it will be forgiven one day.
However, to me it has been a piece of evidence to the UR position of the bible. I think it is an automatic piece of knowledge that if our correction is temporary and things to our perspective happens in frames of time, then blasphemy will be forgiven but only at a different time frame than other things.
ARGH!! I had this really great response on this topic . .took forever to write it . .and in the middle somewhere, my log-in time ran out and erased the whole stupid thing! (grrr!)
IN SHORT . . . (as if) . . .
I actually believe every living believer has committed this sin at one time or another. When I look at the usages of "blasphemy" in Scripture (10 times in the New Testament) I find that it seems to show two different meanings. In one sense, it leans toward speaking "against" another. In another sense, it speaks of assuming the authority of another. Jesus was accused of blaspheme by the Pharisees when he admitted he was the Son of God. He wasn't speaking against God, he was telling them that he was in essence, God. And in their eyes, there is only "one" God. . and he wasn't it. Thus, "blasphemy".
And I believe that in that light, many blaspheme the Holy Spirit every time we sign on the forums, every time we step out the door, every time we assume the activity that was never meant to be ours. And that is, the ministry of "conviction".
Have you ever wondered how a goose knows when it's time to fly south? Have you ever seen anybody standing out at the edges of the rivers and ponds, explaining to the geese preaching to them that winter is coming and they MUST fly south or else they'll freeze to death? No? Didn't think so.
But yet we do this all the time with each other. From what I understand Phillippians to say about this is, God's spirit is at work "in" me, giving me, changing my will to be in alignment with his will to both "want to" and "do" his good pleasure. Yes? Is not his spirit in every one of us giving us both to will and to do his good pleasure? If this is true, then how is it we still believe we must take it upon ourselves to preach things to each other that the Spirit has already instilled in us?
I do it all the time. I had a relative that I knew was messing around with her boyfriend and it was killing me to let her continue to think nobody was aware of it. Even though she denied to anyone who approached her about it that anything was going on, I still thought I should take her aside . .as a Pastor of course and "counsel" her (I convinced myself that's what it was). And all it did was cause her to pull away even more.
Did I think that she didn't already know it was a wrong thing to do? Did I think that she didn't already realize that it was a dangerous road to travel? Didn't matter, I still thought it was my responsibility to straighten her out . . .she needed to know what direction south was and that winter was coming . . .
the truth is, it's not my responsibility to tell you what the Spirit is already fully capable of telling you. I'm not here to straighten you out, I'm just a farmer . .I plant. I don't separate. If I truly think that you are so far off, the most effective way I could ever change your direction would not be to approach you and talk to your mind . .which apparently is in control of your spirit or you wouldn't be making such a dangerous decision like sleeping with your boyfriend. But if I truly wanted to reach the "inner" you, the way to do that is to go to my knees and get into the same realm that the inner you lives in. Praying in the spirit can do wonders.
But yet, there are so many threads of so many topics of people preaching to the ponds around them trying to explain what truly is not their job to push, but it's the Holy Spirit's responsibility . . .so when I cross that line, I then blaspheme the Holy Ghost. I assume to be the convictor.
I think the blood of the Lamb covers all sins. But this one carries with it a consequence. Can't very well be cleansed by the Spirit when I'm the one trying to assume the role that is already the Spirits now can I? Rather than judging one another of how inadequate they are with their conversations and opinions, wouldn't it be cool to have every post be one of pure friendship and absolutely no demeaning comments or biting remarks all the time . . . if our Father is LOVE . . .and we're the offsprings of that, would that not be so hard to do then?
No longer necessary to be preaching to the pond anymore, let the "in"stinct tell them when it's time to fly . . .yes?
hallelujah! amen.
Wow, Brother Nathan...what a can of worms. You planning on going fishing? :mpardon:
Really, I like the tone of what you say, and IMO, I see many truths in it. However, don't you think there's a place for instruction, teaching, and even confrontation within the body? And that the Spirit also works through that? I know what you say about the Spirit's workings are true, I just personally don't believe it's a total "either/or situation". I DO REALIZE WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS. Everyone's own conscience before the Lord, not judging, interacting in love, etc. However, there seems to be plenty of evidence in scripture where we are to speak up at times.
Just a few examples...
we are to "entreat with sound teaching as well as to expose those who contradict."
Titus 1:9 "holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict."
Titus 2:1-15 (in part) You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men... teach the older women...teach what is good. Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled....so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.
Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother."
I know, easy does it, and we best be led by the Spirit when we say anything along these lines. Maybe this isn't exactly what you were addressing...just some thoughts I had. Maybe you have further thoughts on how these scriptures and ideas conform/comply/ or not with what you're saying. God's blessing, James.
Suppose someone comes on TM tonight and says "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe the cross or the blood of Jesus was necessary, Paul was totally wrong and made stuff up, and there's 4 Gods in a Godhead that we really need to worship". As a believer, would you ignore it, "support him", or in love attempt to point out scripture and reason with the person? In essence, while attempting to help him, yet also for the sake of others exposing him and contradicting his false doctrine? Or some other option? (Martin, I have a pretty good idea what you'd do :laughing7: :gthumbsup:...thank goodness.)
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Quote, the Holy Spirit through Paul. :mshock:.
Yeah, seems to me 'unpardonable' is based upon the ET paradigm. And :Oops: I realize my last 2 responses weren't completely related to this thread, was "going with the flow" :punish:.
The reason this specific Gospel had me concerned is that there are apologetics websites using this Gospel along with the other three (that mention it) and saying its simple to see that the sin is a one time verbal anything against the H.S. - They add, one strike and you're out.
Okay I pretty much get that that specific sin is the one of calling good works evil when the H.S is involved. What happens then to those people that thought it or said in in this day and age but did'nt really mean it at the time because they did'nt understand the Bible yet or the workings of Jesus?
Started to post earlier about my recent leaning that most if not all of what Jesus said was specifically directed to the Jews of/at that time ("I come not except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"). My question was going to be, "can we even commit this sin today" then? Decided not to post it, didn't want anyone to stumble on it, and still don't...SO DON'T TAKE THIS AS ABSOLUTE, I'M WONDERING.
Then in response to DeeDee's last post, I went to a source I respect a lot, J. Preston Eby...he has a long discertation on this topic here htp://www.godfire.net/eby/unpardonable.html but I cut and pasted this very interesting piece from it:
THERE IS NO UNPARDONABLE SIN! I am glad that Jesus said that all manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men. I believe that is true. ALL manner. There is no kind of sin, which because of its kind, or manner, is unpardonable. The enemies of the truth of the ultimate salvation of all men have relied on this dissertation about the unpardonable sin given by our Lord, as their outstanding bulwark of defense against those who affirm that Christ is indeed the Saviour of all men, the Saviour of the world.
"This age" plainly indicates the age of Law. Jesus came under the age of the Law. "But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, MADE UNDER THE LAW, to redeem them that were under the law..." (Gal. 4:4-5). The age that was to come, the age then imminent and impending was this present age of the church. The two ages of unforgiveness are thus clearly defined as the law age and the grace age. These words could not in any manner apply to any except people then living prior to Calvary and the birth of the church age on the day of Pentecost. You will never in a million years understand the deep mystery and meaning of Jesus' teaching on this subject until you grasp the significant fact that He was not talking to New Testament saints - He was not talking to YOU, precious friend of mine - His words were sent directly to those first-century rulers of the kingdom of Judah! J. Preston Eby
Quote from: Brian on November 12, 2008, 04:05:56 AM
When Jesus spoke this, he was directly addressing the Pharisees. Are you a Pharisee? What was He addressing? He was addressing their continual refusal by way of hardening their hearts, to accept Him as the Messiah. Have you hardened your heart against Jesus being the Messiah? How did they do this? Because they were saying, "He has an unclean spirit." (Mark 3:30). More importantly, they believed this in their callused hearts. This took place while Jesus was in non glorified human form, performing miracles through the Holy Spirit. Is Jesus still in non glorified human form performing miracles here on earth through the Holy Spirit?
Is there any passage outside of the who, what, when, where and how of this particular event that is mentioned anywhere else in the Bible? One would think that if something of this magnitude reached outside of this particular instance, it would have been addressed elsewhere (in the real Bible).
Brian
Exactly...who was Jesus speaking to in His earthly ministry, and about what? His being the Messiah, His kingdom that the religious leaders would not inherit, that they were about to lose their inheritance of privilege
for a season, because in the end
"all Israel will be saved"!!!! ALL Israel, EVEN THOSE THAT WERE BLASPHEMING??? :boogie:.
"The love of God, how rich and pure
how marvelous and strong
It shall forever more endure
the saints and angels song".
Praise be to God. God's blessing, James.
Brain,
That would mean we can remove many of the verses found in the Bible. Afteral they where not written for us but for a long died audience.
Somehow, don't ask me how because I can't answer, every letter is a lesson for everyone that will ever exist.
????
There are always lessons, but IMO, context is critical. For example, in the account of Him telling Noah to build the Ark, God surely may have a lesson for me about preparing, believing Him, trusting Him, following His commands etc. ...but I don't believe He would have me go out and start on my own literal ark, believing He's going to send a flood :wink:. Well, that's the way I understand it, anyhoo. To whom, what, and why...God's blessing, James.
Don't bet on that Jabcat :laughing7:
Where I live it hasn't stopped raining ever since....
The question is if teh Ark story is only about the flood.
The ark had special measurements. Special degin that ought to represent the human body.
So there always seem to be hidden meanings.
Anyway I'm going to unship all those animals right now.
Perhaps thats best for them fish anyway because the keep dying on me :laughing7:
Oh I agree, there are many layers I sure don't understand...however (and I'm no scholar brother) there often seems to be a primary subject and primary meaning, then many other layers for our instruction and edification. One thing about this particular topic is, Jesus said Himself that He came (which I understand to mean His earthly ministry) only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And when He spoke of the "unpardonable sin", it was to those corrupt Jewish leaders that He spoke. Same idea as I understand it with Laz and the rich dude. Anyway, OK, I've said enough on this for now. We'll all see it exactly the same someday, right? :happygrin:. And get out your umbrella and rubber boots! James.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 12, 2008, 10:10:25 AM
Somehow...every letter is a lesson for everyone that will ever exist.
Amen :cloud9: :Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: Every letter still foretells the future, as well as reveals every second of the past. It's the Book by which angels, the world, and all of Creation will be judged and set in their proper divine order. If there's ever another Lucifer to fall (allow the analogy those of you that are puritans about that), it'll be the very Book we'll pull out to remedy the situation. It's Law, Legal Precident, and absolutely everything that we'll ever know quadrillions upon quadrillions of years from now is already within it's pages. These are eternal principles and eternal analogies because love will both never fail and never change. It's never dawned on most of the people that come to this website, but the Book is what we're becoming. Each person's view of the Book invariably and inevitably is their view of themselves if you probe them far enough about their understanding of the nature and spirit of the Word. It goes hand in hand that as their view of the Book changes, from their time sitting at the feet of each of it's pages, their view of themselves changes and grows in conformity with their Vision produced by the spirit and the word that they're immersed in.
I'll deflect attention from my previous post by saying something that many that come to these boards may find even more heretical than my previous post. This may mess with some people for the rest of the year, so this is your final warning to take a step back and not read the rest of this post if you've got any thoughts in the back of your mind that some things might be too deep for you at your present season. This is one of those chokers for anyone that needs a final warning to not read one word further, but to click away.
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2008, 10:48:58 AMWe'll all see it exactly the same someday, right? :happygrin:
This will never be the case. Never. We'll all ultimately know where each of us are coming from and things won't get lost in the translation through the present limitations of our native mortal languages that have been courtesy of the Tower of Babel incident. But we're the Body of Christ. Though we'll each come to the unity of the faith and the unity of knowledge of the Son of God, according to Ephesians 4, we're each still members of the Body. Will an elbow ever fully share the same perspective as a nose, a tongue, or a toe? If each of us were created differently to express His image differently and with unique gifts that fit our destinies, personalities, DNA, desires, profitability in the Kingdom, etc., with additional desires and giftings emerging into their full maturity in future ages, and if we're each growing in proportion to the Location, Water, Sun, Pruning, Fertilizer, Fruit we bare, and the insects and predators that we're standing our ground in the midst of, then why in a Kingdom Whose increase shall never end would we ever arrive at being a perfect photo copy of each other?
Conformity with the image of Jesus Christ is conformity with being restored humanity. It's doing things the exact same way that God our Father does: with His Blessing, His Word, faith, His Blood, and the Anointing. It's not being a photo copy of Jesus to where if green were His favorite color and raisin bran His favorite food that at the regeneration of all things we'd have no individuality and variety on those nonessentials to being One with His nature, conformed to His ultimate purposes, and knowing as we're known because love has been perfected in us through our abiding in Him and His Word abiding in us. I'm me and you're you. I'm never going to be anyone other than myself and you're never going to be anyone but yourself. The only difference in the future is that limitations won't be present in our ability to understand one another, in our ability to live at peace with one another, and life won't be a constant combat to keep the mind renewed and every care cast upon Him. What we've had in our hearts that's caused them to soar will permanently be shared by our bodies, brains, circumstances, attitudes, relationships, resources, and what we'll each create after the last Jezabel, Judas, Ahab, Barabbas, Cain, Pharoah, and Nimrod of this present creation has been returned to Father by Christ Jesus.
But the differences between each of us will continue to become more pronounced as the ages unfold "as star differs from star in glory." But contrary to this present demonic age, what'll make the coming ages different is that our differences will no longer be magnified in our eyes by the devil with hate. Our heavenly Father wants to create an even bigger set of universes in the future than what presently exist. Each of our gifts and their administrative potentials will continue to grow and expand from age to age until the full weight of His glory is expressed exceedingly, abundantly, above and beyond all that we could ask, think, imagine, or yearn for, with our worship and thanksgiving growing towards Him abundantly beyond our deepest groans at present. Don't make the mistake in thinking that getting everybody Home either exhausts the extent of God's wisdom and power or the wisdom, patience, and capacities that He's developing in each of us. Everything that we're learning right now is
JUST THE BEGINNING :Sparkletooth:
I don't find it heretical, and do find it interesting. You may be right. But while I'm thinking of possible scriptural connections with my statement (which may mostly just be the traditional POV), what scripture (at least in part) is your understanding based on or at least backed with? In other words, what'choo talkin' 'bout, Willis?
I got so far out there, into such an out of body experience with that last post of mine, that I had to shut it down when/where I did and make sure that I wasn't in violation of 2John 9. But the Lord reminded me of Isaiah 9, the all in all statements of the New Testament, particularly the one that concludes Ephesians 1 about the Body being the fullness of Him that filleth all in all: that filling of all in all would change galactic coordinates with reference to the Throne of God as the center of reality with any expansions of all that is per the statement in Isaiah 9 about the Kingdom's increase never ending. All of the different Scriptures about the Body in St. Paul and about the seed of the Kingdom in the Gospels, particularly Mark 4 were where I was wandering around. Ages to come in which He'll exhaustively lavish on us the exceeding riches of His grace from Ephesians 2 and 3 where it says that it'll be abundantly beyond all we can ask or think was factoring in my thinking. St. Paul's comment in 1Corinthians 15 indicating that sowing and reaping applies to the resurrection. Scriptures about the unchanging nature of God, Jesus' parable about being rulers over cities (which I'm not able to limit to either this life, the millenium, and the New Earth for self evident reasons because God always rewards the faithful and diligent, according to Hebrews 11:6 and countless other Scriptures that either express or illustrate that truth); connecting the dots between God's unchanging nature, the differences between resurrections in 1Corinthians 15, and again looking back to various Scriptures besides Isaiah 9 that indicate in various ways that God's plans involve things getting bigger and bigger. And other Scriptures that I'll have to edit this post with after I've come down from this spiritual high I've been on since my last post, and after I've gotten some sleep and had time to process this experience that I've had in having written that.
Amen Brian! I love your last post. Especially the ending. It's awful, terrible, horrendous feeling like you are damned all the time! That's why it is important that we debunk the things that need debunking and read things the way they should be read. I still like the idea that the unpardonable sin is no longer commitable. That it was something unique to that time and that it was only a warning. Would love to look into that theory more.
Blessings
Dee
Brian,
I agree with most of your reply. But want to that even the fact that the parable was used against a select group in a certain time doesn't mean it can't be put into another context. Not saying out of context.
I think the verse is still valid today because I think today there are people that are just as evil as back then.
Today we also have backslidden people.
Same crime same punishment. But IMO it is n-o-t eternal.
Not then, not now, not ever.
Quote from: Brian on November 12, 2008, 09:32:15 PM
I still feel the best interpretation of the unforgivable sin, is that by denying the power of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, you make it impossible for yourself to be forgiven. It's not that God won't forgive you, it's that you won't let God forgive you, that's what makes it unforgivable. It's an attitude that has to be maintained, not a one time slip of the tongue.
Brian,
I have the same opion. Plus also an aditional thought. More a general feeling I can't backup with a verse.
Tell me please if you feel the same way.
Even if you are guilty of the unpardoneble sin for say 40 years (constantly) and after that you turn towards Jesus then IMO the unforgiveble sin is forgiven immediately. Meaning in this age/life.
It's only unpardoneble if you 'take it with you' to the afterlife.
Can you agree with that interpretation?
Crown/rewards as you say, and/or as Martin Zender explains it this way...he describes that to mean "our aeonian life, the reigning with Jesus for his 'thousand year' reign" then resurrected...and/or as perhaps J. Preston Eby and Thomas Kissinger describe it, as being disqualified as a Manifest Son of God, which I understand to be basically the same thing...reigning with Jesus for the first resurrection vs. being disqualified for that and being raised later. :dontknow:...either way, apparently not about "salvation" when it's all said and done. Good News. God's blessing, James.
Puleeze forgive me :Pray:...yeah, I know, that confuses me about Paul. I really don't understand it...if he was afraid he wasn't faithful enough, then :help:.
That's what I was thinking as well, it could all be terminology for basically the same thing...crowns/rewards could include the first resurrection/reigning with Christ. The thing with Paul, though, that's another story...I was laying in bed before I got up thinking about it, s/w along the same lines of what you say...maybe that was him expressing what you say, sort of a "these are my concerns, I can't be lazy and quit", not that it was actually something that was likely to happen. I don't mean to degrade the accuracy and/or intention of scripture with this, so I may be wrong...I'm not sure....it is a bit of chin scratcher, and I really think it is important...speaks to our own responsibilities and possible consequences...let me know if you get any further revelation on this...thanks, James.
P.S. In the ET circles in which I was raised, this definitely was interpreted to mean "losing your salvation"...which, even if there is some sort of disqualification, I've got to believe that's fixed in the consummation/ultimate reconciliation. So, it must mean something else...keep me posted.
I like this explanation, I'll look at the scriptures. Not taking the time to look up this exact reference, but I am reminded of "I am pursuaded, neither death, nor life, etc. can separate me from the Love of God"...maybe your cousin's right. Also, good link...apostleship vs. salvation...sort of the crowns/rewards thing again...
Great thoughts ! :icon_flower:
Iam reminded of Jesus praying for Peters faith that it does not fail him
when Satan desired to sift him like wheat and How Jesus told him when he was converted[ turned around] to feed the lambs / sheep and it was about how much Peter loved Jesus Christ
again we see Pauls confirming this in his apostleship[ ability to reach and teach others] just as Peters discipleship [learning and being taught the Way of Jesus Christ] is perfected /completed , that worthiness to be able to go from faith to faith to the Jew and Gentile by the Laws of God from the Old Moses / death to the New covenants in Christ/Life
..Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,
The just shall live by faith.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
this is a wonderful little study , God bless you and yours!
Quote from: rosered on November 15, 2008, 05:02:01 PM
Great thoughts ! :icon_flower:
Iam reminded of Jesus praying for Peters faith that it does not fail him
when Satan desired to sift him like wheat and How Jesus told him when he was converted[ turned around] to feed the lambs / sheep and it was about how much Peter loved Jesus Christ
again we see Pauls confirming this in his apostleship[ ability to reach and teach others] just as Peters discipleship [learning and being taught the Way of Jesus Christ] is perfected /completed , that worthiness to be able to go from faith to faith to the Jew and Gentile by the Laws of God from the Old Moses / death to the New covenants in Christ/Life
..Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,
The just shall live by faith.For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
this is a wonderful little study , God bless you and yours!
:goodpost: Great and helpful insight here....Quote, "again we see Pauls confirming this in his apostleship[ ability to reach and teach others] just as Peters discipleship [learning and being taught the Way of Jesus Christ] is perfected /completed , that worthiness to be able to go from faith to faith". God's blessing, James.
Some thoughts today that have been fermenting for awhile: I think I can reconcile some of these, but taken as a whole, still s/w problematic, and they tie into this discussion...some may have already been touched on, but lumping them here.
If (A), then how (B)?
(A) All things are lawful (though all not expedient), don't condemn self in what allow
(B) Bringing my body under subjection (much examples and detail from Paul)
(A) freedom in Christ
(B) take heed that you not fall/sin
(A) No condemnation
(B) sin, lying, hating your brother, etc., love of God is not in you/disqualified, warring with the law of my mind, leading me into captivity
(A) God tries/tests us (basanismo) as with a touchstone
(B) "let no one say from God am I undergoing trial, for God is not tried by evils, yet He is trying no one" [James 1]
(A) A seeming sense of redeemed, rejoice, live joyfully, living in liberty, total gift of God
(B) A seeming sense of be careful, be on guard, faith without works is dead, may be disqualified [even if 'disqualified' "only" has to do with rewards/sonship/apostleship, then still, how (A)?]
(A) no longer I that sin, but sin that dwells in me, no condemnation, not walking according to the flesh, Jesus frees from law of sin and death
(B) do what I don't want to do, law of sin and death reigns in my flesh, 'o wretched man'
OK, may add to this, but it's a start...summarily, thinking about ***freedom/joy/grace/liberty*** alongside ***works/disqualification/turning from the faith
I know the general answer for me is .... the flesh is sinful, God delivers...but does anyone else see day-to-day questions for us here? Freedom/liberty/cast all worries on Him vs/ work, be careful, battle with the flesh....
Let me bring this home. Growing up in little Pentecostal "churches", we sang a song..."living in the liberty where Christ makes free" and "I am free from condemnation, for the Son has made me free".
Those were (and I grew up to be) some of the most fearful (of losing salvation), condemned, struggling to "stay saved" people I ever knew. Many of them "backsliding", turning back to sin/the world, "giving up" .... As they say, "you know what I'm sayin'?"
God's blessing, James.
Maybe it's all those things in the first post together. The joy of knowing Jesus has and will take care of it all, even in the midst of the "stuff"...the verse "who will deliver me? Thank God, Jesus".
Maybe that's a big reason of the folks I grew up with "failed" and quit...not realizing now and "in the end" Jesus has, is, will be taking care of things..in the final say, not up to us. And there's our UR.
Quote from: jabcat on November 15, 2008, 11:00:07 PM
Maybe it's all those things in the first post together. The joy of knowing Jesus has and will take care of it all, even in the midst of the "stuff"...the verse "who will deliver me? Thank God, Jesus".
Maybe that's a big reason of the folks I grew up with "failed" and quit...not realizing now and "in the end" Jesus has, is, will be taking care of things..in the final say, not up to us. And there's our UR.
Amen James the Lord is our salvation! awesome ! good thoughts bro ....... :HeartThrob: