Tentmaker Forum

How are you guys feeling and what are you thinking about the economy?  I was talking with a friend of mine, who if a believer at all, is a somewhat "distant" one.  I think he believes in God, but not sure where his trust in Jesus is.  Was raised Catholic, Catholic school with the "mean nuns", doesn't really have anything to say about Jesus, etc., unless I bring it up.

Anyway, he is a Democrat, voted for Obama.  He talked today about he and his fiancee's (ex-wife, getting remarried) different thoughts on things with the economy, what they're doing to prepare if an absolute "crash" occurred.  He's a pretty logical, not overly-reactive guy.  One thing he told me though bears some further research, and if it's true, IMO it's an attention getter.  He said that many rich people, especially in New York, are quietly moving out of the country, "because they know it's [the crash/disaster] coming".

I believe God's going to fix everything in the end.  My thoughts are what may occur in the meantime.  I think some of us here at TM may believe it's only getting better from here, with things building to the Kingdom;  some of us may see things more as the "great falling away", "will He find faith on the earth", and the earth will be cleansed with fire before the new heaven and new earth;  and some surely have mixtures of various other POVs.

In general, I think these are upsetting times for a lot of folks, and is at the very least an opportunity for us to share with others, both our financial resources and the message of Life.

Paul said he had never seen the righteous forsaken or begging for bread.

I thank God often for His gracious blessings on me and my family.  He has given us food, shelter, and protection. 

How's everyone doing in these unsettled times?  Opinions, thoughts, feelings are great, but does anyone also have any specific, absolutely certain words from the Lord on these matters?

God's blessing, James.

There really is no shortage of anything and all this is just a natural response to bad financial practices (including HUD encouraging bad loan making under Cisneros/Clinton). Here in San Antonio we have half empty neighborhoods where low-income folks were approved to buy houses - AT THE GOVERNMENT'S BEHEST. So the government causes the problem and they now want to be the great heros.

Hard working people are the only economic heros!!!

The housing market needed to correct itself from the sub-prime mistake (financial institutions lending to borrowers who do not meet prime underwriting guidelines) but then the fear instilled by the gov. and the media (as things were righting themselves) caused a universal collapse. People froze up and stopped spending because of bad predictions and now look! It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

This has nothing to do with end-times or God trying to get a message across. It is the natural result of government messing up a mortgage system that worked great for over a hundred years.

Leaving the country won't help as the whole world is engulfed in this crises.

Think of it - the whole world was depending on the U.S. housing market staying solid. Nuts!

Personally, life has thrown much bigger monkey wrenches my way than this economic downturn. The only thing that concerns me in the least is the lawlessness which can abound if everything really really collapses and the police force dwindles and loses control. At that point communities have to come together on their own and those who already have a strong community/friendship base are way ahead of the game.

I have no savings at all and am about $20,000.00 in debt so it is disconcerting (in the natural) but really - it's just part of life and struggle and faith and growth and learning.
 

Hey Jab, can you find out for me where they are moving to? :grin:

The american public, like the cheated on wife or the cuckolded husband, will be the last to know.

I can't figure out if people are intentionally stupid because they don't want to know, or if they are just naturally stupid, but there is nothing going on right now that hasn't been planned for and orchestrated in advance for years. 

So I think about the y2k hype and how all those new computer programs had to be written, especially for the banks, ...did this open the way for  some unknown party in sept of 2008 to electronically execute a run on the banks to the tune of 550billion dollars in one hour....and I think to myself, what a wonderful world.

Well, I don't worry about any of it because I know God is in control of all things. He makes the rich and the poor and tells us not to worry about what tomorrow may bring, whjat we eat or wear, so I just leave it all in his hands.

I believe since the beginning of time, all things are working it's way up to the coming of Christ. This is just part of the plan.

CHB

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



Psalm 25:5
Lead me in thy truth, and teach me: for thou art the God of my salvation; on thee do I wait all the day.

hmmm.

Spend a few minutes on infowars.com
Where there's smoke there's fire.

tell ME...

WHAT is truth?

:dontknow:

:wacko2:

1. The world is seemingly run by madmen.
2. Some conspiracy theories are not theories at all.
That much I believe.

Otherwise, I have no idea what is going on.
or what is going to happen.
I do see that our rights are continuously being trampled over..(and it's getting worse and worse). and the American public seems more interested in things like American Idol...and that does give me pause.


Whatever happens... this is just "THIS WORLD" our temporary home. Sometimes, I think to myself... why does it even matter? This is fleeting... whatever happens, we'll get through and everything will be ok.
Ugh. I have been spending a lot of time on this subject lately..I think I need a vacation.

These are surely very strange times we are living in.

 :cloud9: All I know as pertaining to the Lord, is that many years ago, probable around 20, my little group at the time, was shown thru different people having similar dreams, that the day would come when we would have to grow our own food for a season. The dream content I can't remember because they were not mine, but it was as when the children of Israel were the only ones that had light in their dwellings, also. So we felt that we were being shown some catastrophe was coming in our lifetimes, to cause such things.

As for me, I personally think it is all going to collapse. This is a worldwide problem; Iceland's economy has already collapsed and a few weeks ago France had a million protesting in the streets over their economy. So we would be foolish I think, to think that it is going to bypass us, as the multinational corporations have created essentially a one world system already, so if one falls, they all fall. It's just a matter of time, and no amount of throwing money at it is going to forestall the inevitable forever.

I would say don't have your money in banks much longer, but unless you have gold, it probably won't do you any good anyway, because if all collapses whoever is left to pick up the pieces will probably initiate that North American unity with one currency, Bush was trying to accomplish before he left office, and I imagine it will be a new currency, just so the ones that are really running the show will have more than anyone else. My  :2c: Blessings....

I wonder if God isn't drawing us closer to him so that the "things" around us won't be as much a distraction and causing us to induce fear in ourselves.  Consider the lillies  . . over used passage and becomes extremely cliche, but that's not the Holy Spirit's fault.  It's still truth.  The more I think about the natural things, the more I sense hoplessness setting in . .economy, envrionment, politics, media . . .it's all about doom and gloom.  No matter how great things are in one area, what get's the most mileage is the other areas that aren't as healthy.  It's as if people "need" something to worry about. 

Tis terminal ....Like most things of the Flesh.. :sigh:.

but theres always One positive  certainty..HES called LIFE. :icon_flower:

:icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

 :cloud9: Amen. I'm observing what is going on around us, but keeping my eyes on Him who is the answer.  :thumbsup:

jabcat wrote: "Paul said he had never seen the righteous forsaken or begging for bread."


That was king David:
Psa 37:25  I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.

Paul wrote:
2Co 11:23-27  "Servants of Christ are they? (Being insane, I am speaking.) Above them am I! In weariness more exceedingly, in jails more exceedingly, in blows inordinatley, in deaths often. "  (24)  By Jews five times I got forty save one.  (25)  Thrice am I flogged with rods, once am I stoned, thrice am I shipwrecked, a night and a day have I spent in a swamp, "  (26)  in journeys often, in dangers of rivers, in dangers of robbers, in dangers of my race, in dangers of the nations, in dangers in the city, in dangers in the wilderness, in dangers in the sea, in dangers among false brethren; "  (27)  in toil and labor, in vigils often, in famine and thirst, in fasts often, in cold and nakedness; "

I think Paul would have said: "Though He slay me yet will I trust Him." (Job 13:15).

Living north of Detroit, we are not doing too bad. There is still a traffic jam trying to get through the town of Almont which means people are still working and trying to get home at night and getting to work in the morning.

But talking to the home seller, there are lots of homes for sale and lots of homes have been foreclosed in this area. Lots of people have moved away to where the work is. The largest manufacturing company in town finally closed its doors. They mfg'd. stuff for the auto industry.

Go just south of here by about 25 miles and it is just booming. Lots of money, and buildings going up. Who knows? My friends in Alabama can't find work and are going B.K. this week.

TT

thanks for the clarification...

I was thinking about gold today after Card mentioned it.  This song came to mind, which says in part "a piece of bread could buy a bag of gold"....I'm interested in thoughts on this song, parts of it fit the economy theme of this thread.  I think obviously the main theme of the song is the "rapture", and I'm not going to include the direct references to it...if you're a rapture believer and want to touch on that, go ahead.  But for most, getting beyond that piece to other aspects of the song, i.e. "the days we're living in/the days to come", whether pre-mil, post-mil, or no-mil, what's your take?

"Life was filled with guns and war,
And everyone got trampled on the floor.
I wish we'd all been ready.

Children died, the days grew cold.
A piece of bread could buy a bag of gold.
I wish we'd all been ready.

The Father spoke, the demons dined.
How could you have been so blind?" --- Larry Norman

Quote from: Cardinal on February 27, 2009, 09:36:02 PM
:cloud9: Amen. I'm observing what is going on around us, but keeping my eyes on Him who is the answer.  :thumbsup:

Same here!

That song sure brings back memories. I remember sitting in church Wednesday night as a teenager watching that movie where the people with 666 on their foreheads were chasing the Christians to put them under the guillatine. That song really does have a beautiful foreboding tune. At the time it seems like either it was Gorbachev or the Gulf War that was the foreboding antiChrist.

I was thinking about that movie too, Sarah...those were the days...


Molly...I've heard perhaps both New Zealand and Australia... :dontknow:

I wish I could break everyone out of the end time scare scenario that the church has falsely put forth.

In America we are free people in a free country with religious freedoms paid for with blood.

Governments have ALWAYS trounced on civil rights when convenient. No need to tie this into some big conspiracy theory about the end of the world and one world government etc.

We are in charge folks. God has put all things under our feet.

The only one world government is the prevalence of carnal thinking governing people's actions (including many within Christianity).

Change the world, break oppression, bring the Kingdom to manifestation in your sphere of influence.

:thumbsup:   

I've read you could fit the entire world's population into Australia, with a quarter acre given to every man, woman, and child alive.

So don't believe the liars who ramble on about over population.  It's just not true.  Neither should there be any food shortages in the world--ever!!!  Only common sense tells us that is true as corrupt governments pay farmers not to farm right before they drive them off their property with taxes and liens.

Medicine has made so many advances in the last century--we are on the verge of living 'forever,' if only it could be realized for the average person.

Neither believe the global warming liars, as if we even needed hundred year old technology to get from here to there.

We are under a final assault now--it should be obvious to everyone.   Freedom is a dirty word among the world's elite, just as is the name of Jesus.  I have read that gold will be the last man standing.  One could only assume the object is to reduce as many as possible to the animals they have taught us we are.  There's no moral hazard in killing animals in their minds.  Henry Kissinger is salivating over his 'new world order' on the floor of the stock exchange for cnbc.  That's not a conspiracy, that is fact.  They are going public.

But--

Hebrews 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

And, there will be no rapture, but blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.


"meek"
H6035
עניו    ענו
‛ânâv  ‛ânâyv
aw-nawv', aw-nawv'
The second form is by intermixture with H6041; from H6031; depressed (figuratively), in mind (gentle) or circumstances (needy, especially saintly): - humble, lowly, meek, poor`. Compare H6041.

Hi ya,

You should see it in the UK. There is a banker whos' nickname is Fred the Shred as he came into the Royal Bank of Scotland and made people redundant.  Him and other bankers caused this bank and others to make losses in the billions and now there is controversy that he has a pension pot of about 16 million pounds. He is only 50.  He is basically being rewarded for causing the bank he ran to go bankrupt and needing tax payers cash to bail it out, who will be paid back by 'the little people'.  Funny world isn't it. 
I am a bit cross because the interest rates have come right down, so i don't get any interest on my savings which i was careful with!
But then i tell myself that i have to trust that the Lord will look after me with or without savings. I have to rely on the Lord not on myself.

Godbless
Nancy

 :cloud9: Well Nancy, that is essentially what all the banks did here with their bail out money, so don't feel bad. They were supposed to modify loans in exchange for that. I read out of a million homes that were supposed to helped in this way, they only managed to modify 25 in a year. Corruption has got to be at it's highest right now. Blessings....

1Ti 6:17 "Those who are rich in the current eon be charging not to be haughty, nor yet to rely on the dubiousness of riches, but on God, Who is tendering us all things richly for our enjoyment;"

Riches are dubious or uncertain at best.   Best to rely on God.

Quote from: Tony N on March 01, 2009, 12:46:04 AM
1Ti 6:17 "Those who are rich in the current eon be charging not to be haughty, nor yet to rely on the dubiousness of riches, but on God, Who is tendering us all things richly for our enjoyment;"

Riches are dubious or uncertain at best.   Best to rely on God.

Amen, may it be humbly and thankfully.

 :cloud9: Amen to that..... :thumbsup:

Okay, I admit I was wrong about this. The KGB have been secretly building up their network in the U.S. for decades (the don't exist anymore you say? Well, that's what they want you to think!!!). 

When Kissinger gives the order they will show up on the doorstep of anyone who has ever named the name of Jesus (in a non swear-word manner) and they will ask you to denounce Christ or they will blow your head off. Of course - they are lying and instead they will cart you off to special camps where a special anti-christ microchip will be implanted in your brain. The chip causes you to think many anti-christic thoughts, you know, just thoughts about working for the state and no thoughts of freedom ect.

The red commies, (that's ummm... old Russian people - the ones who gave all the hippies drugs and rock music to destroy our western civilization with some help from the beatles - who were also secret KGB operatives) in conjunction with the illuminati are finally bringing all their evil plans to fruition as we see pot smoking executive baby boomers (with no common sense left) just laying down all their freedoms without a fight (after doing too much LDS in the sixties).   

Now, when word gets out and the red-neck Christian right begin to pull out their hunting rifles and shotguns ect and start fighting back - that's when the REAL fun starts.

You see, fallen angels came down in spaceships in 1947 and have been breeding with albino lesbian Canadian chicks and have created this huge army of 9 foot tall gay albino Nephilimites who will rush upon us from the north and quickly repel all opposition.   :mshock:

But don't worry - the sky will open up and an angelic army on horseback will fight with the 9 foot tall gay albino Nephilimites and will prevail against them. Also, they are specially trained to remove the anti-christ microchips from those implanted with them.   :thumbsup:

So yes, it does look bad, but everything will turn out fine.  :laughing7:

"Nasa"  Hebrew



to lift, bear up, carry, take
(Qal)
to lift, lift up
to bear, carry, support, sustain, endure
to take, take away, carry off, forgive
(Niphal)
to be lifted up, be exalted
to lift oneself up, rise up
to be borne, be carried
to be taken away, be carried off, be swept away
(Piel)
to lift up, exalt, support, aid, assist
to desire, long (fig.)
to carry, bear continuously
to take, take away
(Hithpael) to lift oneself up, exalt oneself
(Hiphil)
to cause one to bear (iniquity)
to cause to bring, have brought

Eleven States Declare Sovereignty Over Obama's Action

A.W.R. Hawkins
Human Events
February 24, 2009

State governors — looking down the gun barrel of long-term spending forced on them by the Obama "stimulus" plan — are saying they will refuse to take the money. This is a Constitutional confrontation between the federal government and the states unlike any in our time.

In the first five weeks of his presidency, Barack Obama has acted so rashly that at least 11 states have decided that his brand of "hope" equates to an intolerable expansion of the federal government's authority over the states. These states — "Washington, New Hampshire, Arizona, Montana, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma, California...Georgia," South Carolina, and Texas — "have all introduced bills and resolutions" reminding Obama that the 10th Amendment protects the rights of the states, which are the rights of the people, by limiting the power of the federal government. These resolutions call on Obama to "cease and desist" from his reckless government expansion and also indicate that federal laws and regulations implemented in violation of the 10th Amendment can be nullified by the states.

When the Constitution was being ratified during the 1780s, the 10th Amendment was understood to be the linchpin that held the entire Bill of Rights together. The amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

http://www.infowars.com/eleven-states-declare-sovereignty-over-obama%e2%80%99s-action/

 :cloud9: I read this week that part of that bill has $30 million earmarked to bring Palestinian refugees to this country. Though they're not all terrorists, how exactly does one know, and suppose they decide to become one, once they're here? Anybody remember Arafat? Apparently no one in Washington does. Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on March 01, 2009, 05:05:14 PM
Eleven States Declare Sovereignty Over Obama's Action

A.W.R. Hawkins
Human Events
February 24, 2009

State governors — looking down the gun barrel of long-term spending forced on them by the Obama "stimulus" plan — are saying they will refuse to take the money. This is a Constitutional confrontation between the federal government and the states unlike any in our time.

In the first five weeks of his presidency, Barack Obama has acted so rashly that at least 11 states have decided that his brand of "hope" equates to an intolerable expansion of the federal government's authority over the states. These states — "Washington, New Hampshire, Arizona, Montana, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma, California...Georgia," South Carolina, and Texas — "have all introduced bills and resolutions" reminding Obama that the 10th Amendment protects the rights of the states, which are the rights of the people, by limiting the power of the federal government. These resolutions call on Obama to "cease and desist" from his reckless government expansion and also indicate that federal laws and regulations implemented in violation of the 10th Amendment can be nullified by the states.

When the Constitution was being ratified during the 1780s, the 10th Amendment was understood to be the linchpin that held the entire Bill of Rights together. The amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

http://www.infowars.com/eleven-states-declare-sovereignty-over-obama%e2%80%99s-action/

Well, HALLELUJA!  I hadn't heard that.  I do know that Gerald Celente (trends forecaster, MANY things correct over the past 20 years--research him) has said there will be a tax revolt and eventually a revolution.  However, he also says there will be increased violence and people in the streets of America trying to get food. 

 :cloud9: I just read something yesterday that some famous Russian who predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union, said we have the same factors they did before the fall, and that we will collapse, no matter how much money they throw at the problems. Blessngs....

Quote from: Cardinal on March 01, 2009, 08:38:56 PM
:cloud9: I just read something yesterday that some famous Russian who predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union, said we have the same factors they did before the fall, and that we will collapse, no matter how much money they throw at the problems. Blessngs....

Similarities abound  beyond the walls of the USA and Britain....Personally ,Im amazed its lasted this long.


:icon_flower:

Quote from: Cardinal on March 01, 2009, 05:09:17 PM
:cloud9: I read this week that part of that bill has $30 million earmarked to bring Palestinian refugees to this country. Though they're not all terrorists, how exactly does one know, and suppose they decide to become one, once they're here? Anybody remember Arafat? Apparently no one in Washington does. Blessings....

Who knows what anyone will do, Timothy Mcvay is a good example.   Too many people in fear these days while saying they have faith.   

Quote from: Cardinal on March 01, 2009, 05:09:17 PM
:cloud9: I read this week that part of that bill has $30 million earmarked to bring Palestinian refugees to this country. Though they're not all terrorists, how exactly does one know, and suppose they decide to become one, once they're here? Anybody remember Arafat? Apparently no one in Washington does. Blessings....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Personally I would rather have a Palestinian family living here as my nieghbor than one Israelie settler (squatter). Remember the Ergun and the Stern gang? Remember communist Joe Stalin and his Red Jewish commisars applied atrocities and mass genocide against all those Russian Christians and even some Jews whom they considered to be lessor brethren that would make Adolf Hitlers actions look like kindergarten play, what was Joe Stalin and his red commisars at that time other than terrorists?   

With our economy being in such shambles
at the present due to corruption in high places, example: such as what folks like Bernard Madoff and many others did, what was that other than economic terrorism?

The USA financed much if not most of the rebuilding of the war destruction of the infastructure in Japan and Germany after WW11, so why should we now go in and finance the rebuilding of the fresh  destruction in Gazza when Israel is the one who bombed it into destruction?

None of us want terrorism to be given a place, however labeling a whole people as the terrorists and another people as the always supreme good people doesn't work because it isn't truthful. like you said, the Palestinians they aren't all terrorists, and we know for a fact that the Israelies are not always so innocent as they would try to have other people believe.

Peace,
Fire Walker

 :cloud9: I didn't say they were......however I would still prefer the Israelites to the Palestinians, which are 93% Muslim, given what their ultimate goal is, as Denmark and France are finding out the hard way. Blessings....

Card,
I am sorry and apologies if my post sounded like a personal attack, by no means did I wish to pick on you personaly, you have posted many good viewpoints and brought insight into these forums regarding the gospel of Christ and the spirit at work in your personal walk.

What I desired to point out is that it is difficult for me to view any people corporately under any religious or political label, I suppose I am maybe too much of a one on one viewer of people as individuals rather than by the religious and political leaders they have no choice but to live under, that does not mean that I am niave
enough to trust that all people look at others individualy rather than through a collective corporate lense.

Yes, I remember Arafat and I also remember that Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin were getting close to working out peace together in the
tense situation that has exsisted since the 1948 founding of present day Israel and that it was not Arafat or any Palestinian that killed Israelie PM Yitzhak Rabin, it was a Jewish Israelie who killed Rabin and extremists that were behind that.

Now in supporting our Allies with financial aid, this is all well and fine when we have the where with all to do such but when our Nation is in severe financial straits like we are now would be a good time to suspend all this foriegn aid to Israel, Egypt an others to help get our own Nation taken care of first, time for our political leaders to put the needs of our Nation first before Foriegn interests as it should have been to start with before we throw good money after bad holding up the same failed policies. If our foriegn Allies can't understand this and stand behind us without whining and complaining when we are in need from our own economic turmoil then maybe they aren't such good allies after all.

Personaly for me it is impossible to take sides with either ruler,the Israelies or the Palestinians because I have no desire to live under the rule of Sharia law or Zionist rule
either one when we know Christ gave himself for all men and that we were chosen in him from before the foundation of the world.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Quote from: Molly on March 01, 2009, 05:05:14 PM

In the first five weeks of his presidency, Barack Obama has acted so rashly that at least 11 states have decided that his brand of "hope" equates to an intolerable expansion of the federal government's authority over the states. These states — "Washington, New Hampshire, Arizona, Montana, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma, California...Georgia," South Carolina, and Texas — "have all introduced bills and resolutions" reminding Obama that the 10th Amendment protects the rights of the states, which are the rights of the people, by limiting the power of the federal government.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on March 01, 2009, 05:05:14 PM
Eleven States Declare Sovereignty Over Obama's Action

A.W.R. Hawkins
Human Events
February 24, 2009

State governors — looking down the gun barrel of long-term spending forced on them by the Obama "stimulus" plan — are saying they will refuse to take the money. This is a Constitutional confrontation between the federal government and the states unlike any in our time.

In the first five weeks of his presidency, Barack Obama has acted so rashly that at least 11 states have decided that his brand of "hope" equates to an intolerable expansion of the federal government's authority over the states. These states — "Washington, New Hampshire, Arizona, Montana, Michigan, Missouri, Oklahoma, California...Georgia," South Carolina, and Texas — "have all introduced bills and resolutions" reminding Obama that the 10th Amendment protects the rights of the states, which are the rights of the people, by limiting the power of the federal government. These resolutions call on Obama to "cease and desist" from his reckless government expansion and also indicate that federal laws and regulations implemented in violation of the 10th Amendment can be nullified by the states.

When the Constitution was being ratified during the 1780s, the 10th Amendment was understood to be the linchpin that held the entire Bill of Rights together. The amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

http://www.infowars.com/eleven-states-declare-sovereignty-over-obama%e2%80%99s-action/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Good posting Molly,

Yes these states are doing this and for good reasons.

On the last recent visit  to China Hillory Clinton Sec. of State signed an agreement with China to continue to buy US treasuries and in return if the US government failed
to back these securities up then they have been given eminent domain over properties public and private, they could come and take your property if the US Government defaults on their end of this agreement, yes the states have a 10th amendment right to say no to the federal government oversteping power and bullying the states around! If things continue as they are going there is going to be a massive uprising in this Nation and this may just be the begining of a big showdown between states soveriegnty and the Federal Government which has been long overdue in coming.

Peace,
Fire Walker


(no changes made..."Modify" button hit inadvertently instead of "Quote"--jabcat)

 :cloud9: I gotcha fire walker (first post)  :HeartThrob:

Reply to your last post here; ARE THEY NUTS? Of COURSE we're going to default; it's just a matter of time. They basically just invited the Chinese army to come and take over, is that the gist of what I'm reading here?  :mshock: :sigh:

Quote from: fire walker on March 02, 2009, 10:52:22 AM
If things continue as they are going there is going to be a massive uprising in this Nation and this may just be the begining of a big showdown between states soveriegnty and the Federal Government which has been long overdue in coming.

Peace,
Fire Walker

It's what Gerald Celente says is coming...a revolution.  My question is, what will happen in the meantime, and what will things become?

NEW CONTINENTAL CONGRESS TO MEET IN PHILADELPHIA



By NWV News writer Jim Kouri
Posted 1:00 AM Eastern
February 8, 2009
© NewsWithViews.com

Early this year, selected delegates representing the People of each of the fifty states will convene in Philadelphia to debate our constitutional crisis and establish practicable strategies the People can take, en masse, to peacefully reclaim Liberty and restore Constitutional Order.

These historical proceedings will be known as the "Continental Congress 2009."

Taking a page from the history of America's Founders, the Delegates will convene in Philadelphia across from Independence Hall for a period of several weeks to begin the virtuous tasks of organizing to resist tyranny and imposing, once again, the yoke of Law upon our servant federal government.

A series of promotional meetings is currently being held across the country to advance public interest in the initiative and to expose potential donors to this most important cause in the defense of Liberty and the Constitution.

"What must a free people do, and what is the appropriate next step, if Mr. Obama refuses to respond to our Open Letter and the Supreme Court refuses to hear the Petitions by attorneys Donofrio, Berg and Taitz challenging Obama's citizenship status?" asks Bob Schulz, executive director of We the People Foundation, the organizer of the Continental Congress 2009.

"A violation of the natural born citizen clause of the Constitution by Mr. Obama is so egregious and blatant in its nature that it marks the overt and wholesale abandonment of the Constitution by the Government, making this our "capstone grievance," he told Newswithviews.com during an exclusive interview.

According to the group, the US faces a grave constitutional crisis including:

• Endless armed Middle East conflicts without congressional Declarations of war

• Economic catastrophe resulting from a privately-owned central bank and a debt-based fiat dollar

• Deprivations of privacy and an emerging police state via the "USA Patriot Act"

• Unconstitutionally imposed direct taxes on American labor

• A president-elect who refuses to produce evidence establishing his status as a "natural born" Citizen as required by the Constitution.

• Deprivations of the Rights to a People's Militia and to Keep and Bear Arms

• Plus much more: the NAU, the Fed/Treasury bailouts, uncontrolled borders & immigration, electronic voting, etc.

• And the most grievous injury: A servant government that refuses, at every turn, to be held accountable – in any way - by failing to respond to the People's repeated First Amendment Petitions for Redress of Grievances.

Early this year, selected delegates representing each of the fifty states will convene in Philadelphia to debate constitutional crisis and establish strategies the People can take to peacefully reclaim Liberty and restore Constitutional order.



http://www.newswithviews.com/NWV-News/news124.htm

"Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and the Republic
for which it stands.  Miracles do not cluster, and what has happened
once in 6,000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to the
Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail,
there will be anarchy throughout the world."

---Daniel Webster





CC 2009 PREP TOUR #2

BEGINS FEB. 28!

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/misc2008/2009-Pre-CC-Schedule.htm

Having stumbled upon this thread and browsed over it, I'm sorry to even have opened it at all. 
I don't think it has any useful place on a forum such as this.  I will just leave it at that.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


"hold fast"

G2722
κατέχω
katechō
kat-ekh'-o
From G2596 and G2192; to hold down (fast), in various applications (literally or figuratively): - have, hold (fast), keep (in memory), let, X make toward, possess, retain, seize on, stay, take, withhold.


"that which is good"

G2570
καλός
kalos
kal-os'
Of uncertain affinity; properly beautiful, but chiefly (figuratively) good (literally or morally), that is, valuable or virtuous (for appearance or use, and thus distinguished from G18, which is properly intrinsic): - X better, fair, good (-ly), honest, meet, well, worthy.

I agree we are to trust the Lord in all things, and He will bring all things to our good.  However, doing that and sticking one's head in the sand and refusing to be aware of reality, may be two very different things.  We are told to be aware...not to dwell on the negative and let it overcome us, but still to be aware.  I think there's a fine balance there, and perhaps by discussing it, we can learn from each other, both to not be overcome with fear, but to also see "the signs of the times"...whatever that may mean...or not.  Educated opinions and revelations can help clarify that.  Also, discussing things such as this can allow one to vent some things.  I guess anyone can feel free to participate or not. 

If it is not edifying in any way, then I wouldn't see a reason to participate.  This thread is in the "Member's Section", and if one notices, it says "Discuss Anything Here".  And, I personally see this as UR/eschatologically related, as members have varying POVs on how these times play out and what the implications may be regarding God becoming All in All.  If it is something that's really deemed inappropriate, it will be moderated accordingly.

We can begin to sense the principle that "if the people lead, the leaders will follow". Sooner or later, the truth will come out. But the process of truth-telling appears to be much too slow for us to be able to plan our futures in a timely and rational way.

For example, I'm struck by the collective's lie-by-omission about radical innovation in clean energy and other sustainable solutions. Sadly, the lie is shared even by the most progressive scientists, politicians, journalists and environmentalists. To them, there can be no clean energy breakthroughs, period. Only when pressed, these mainstream scientists and pundits claim advanced energy technologies are not even worth researching because "we all know you can't break the laws of thermodynamics." They are wrong.

This is a lie because those laws are broken many, many times under nonequilibrium conditions, for example, by quantum experiments and by research on various devices that show anomalous energy coming from electromagnetic, plasma, solid state, and electrochemical devices. These experiments are systematically debunked by some of the most vocal and powerful physicists who really don't know what they're talking about. But these high priests of a decadent materialistic physics provide a convenient and effective censorship on bold new breakthroughs as the oil barons laugh all the way to the bank and the planet descends into ecological, political and economic tyranny.

The schools of Richard Heinberg (The Party's Over), George Monbiot (Heat), Michael Ruppert (Crossing the Rubicon), James Lovelock (The Revenge of Gaia), Tim Flannery (The Weather Makers), Ross Gelbspan (The Boiling Point), Michael Klare (Blood and Oil), and countless academic scientists excel at stating the problems of global climate change and dwindling supplies of oil. Their despondency about the lack of viable solutions beyond sacrifice and imminent global collapse show on virtually every page of their writings.

But many of these authors can only scoff at considering even the remotest chance we could violate any of the sacrosanct "laws" of physics, that we must evermore live with existing technologies to obtain our energy. Needless to say, their prognosis is truly grim—as it should be, under the limiting assumptions they themselves have placed on their analyses.

The sad result is an unwitting alliance between the powers-that-be and those partial truth-tellers who are articulate about the crisis itself but are woefully ignorant about the full range of solutions. Layers of truth unfurl at a frustratingly slow pace.

We all lose from this creep of perceived credibility. Greater truths seem to be embraced only in fleeting moments of tiny bite-sized increments, but drown in the cacophony of hubris and kitsch. We are led to believe that our awareness can only take on so much at a time. We are also led to believe that any true energy breakthrough could only occur in the distant future, at best.

..........


The irony here is that, those same experts who justifiably warn us of the grim consequences of our actions also deny the full range of possible solutions such as new energy. Meanwhile, some progressives working within the system are slow to respond to the problem and have not the foggiest idea about how to really solve it. Others surely do know but lie-by-omission to stay in the good graces with their powerful corporate sponsors.

Politics is about the art of what's possible, not the science of what's real. In the U.S. and other western capitalist "democracies" we are sacrificing the truth on the altar of economic expediency. The accumulation of money and power for the privileged few is what runs the world. These oligarchs perceive that authentic democracy in energy independence as a threat, because they would lose their power if new clean, cheap energy were to become available. We are talking about supplanting a multi-trillion dollar economy that underlies their immense power. That's why they are lying by omission, that's why so many inventors have been threatened and assassinated.

New energy can be introduced for the benefit of humankind by a common revolution by the people themselves. But only through a cultural-political process of truth and reconciliation can we reveal the answers with which we must develop a new consensus.


See the full presentation by Dr. Brian O'leary at--

http://www.brianoleary.info/New%20Energy%20Truth%20and%20Lies%20of%20Omission%20v2.html

A gift from God?  Can we pressure congress to take it?



Massive Oil Deposit Assessed in North Dakota and Montana's Bakken Formation
By Editor on December 16, 2008




Reston, VA - North Dakota and Montana have an estimated 3.0 to 4.3 billion barrels of undiscovered, technically recoverable oil in an area known as the Bakken Formation.

A U.S. Geological Survey assessment, released April 10, shows a 25-fold increase in the amount of oil that can be recovered compared to the agency's 1995 estimate of 151 million barrels of oil.



http://www.flippingthenews.com/2008/12/massive-oil-deposit-assessed-in-north-dakota-and-montana%E2%80%99s-bakken-formation/


Bakken Oil Formation In Dakota/Montana Provides USA 8 Times As Much Oil As Saudi Arabia @ $16 Per Barrel x 500 Billion Barrels
Thu, 09/11/2008 - 19:41 — Arthur Cristian
Bakken Oil Formation In Dakota/Montana Provides USA 8 Times As Much Oil As Saudi Arabia @ $16 Per Barrel x 500 Billion Barrels

THIS SHOULD BLOW YOU AWAY ......

http://www.loveforlife.com.au/node/5492

In our own country, we have oil fields that contain--

8-times as much oil as Saudi Arabia
18-times as much oil as Iraq
21-times as much oil as Kuwait
22-times as much oil as Iran
500-times as much oil as Yemen - and it's all right here in the Western United States.

HOW can this BE!?

HOW can we NOT BE extracting this!?

Ha, I just gave a discussion regarding economics to a bunch of Released Time boys.  It was quite fun.  I'll be doing a flash video of it soon for my political blog (http://politicalretreat.blogspot.com (http://politicalretreat.blogspot.com).  I won't talk about my political affiliations here unless someone asks me (you can just read my blog if you really, really want to know), but I'm uncertain as to whether these are End Times, or just retarded times.

Part of this is because I'm fed up with everyone around me shouting, "The only prophecy left is the Rapture!  Can't wait to get off this Earth!" and, "Obama is definately the Antichrist!"  It's driven me into a unnatural apathy.  I'm more interested in taking political action right now to stop this crazy course of events than I am about being Raptured away.

I'm with you.  Let's solve this problem.  Nationalize the Bakken and we can all retire--put the money there instead of into wall street, and start cutting checks to the american people.

My new mantra--No drill, No hill.



John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

It will blow your mind. The U.S. Geological Service issued a report in April ('08) that only scientists and oilmen/women knew was coming, but man was it big. It was a revised report (hadn't been updated since '95) on how much oil was in this area of the western 2/3 of North Dakota; western South Dakota; and extreme eastern Montana ... check THIS out:

The Bakken is the largest domestic oil discovery since Alaska's Prudhoe Bay, and has the potential to eliminate all American dependence on foreign oil.

The Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates it at 503 billion barrels. Even if just 10% of the oil is recoverable ... at $107 a barrel, we're looking at a resource base worth more than $5.3 trillion.

'When I first briefed legislators on this, you could practically see their jaws hit the floor. They had no idea.' says Terry Johnson, the Montana Legislature's financial analyst.

'This sizable find is now the highest-producing onshore oil field found in the past 56 years,' reports The Pittsburgh Post Gazette.

It's a formation known as the Williston Basin , but is more commonly referred to as the 'Bakken.' And it
stretches from Northern Montana, through North Dakota and into Canada.

For years, U. S. oil exploration has been considered a dead end. Even the 'Big Oil' companies gave up searching for major oil wells decades ago.

However, a recent technological breakthrough has opened up the Bakken's massive reserves ... and we now have access of up to 500 billion barrels. And because this is light, sweet oil, those billions of barrels will cost Americans just $16 PER BARREL!

That's enough crude to fully fuel the American economy for 41 years straight.2. [And if THAT didn't throw you on the floor, then this next one should - because it's from TWO YEARS AGO, people!]

U. S. Oil Discovery-Largest Reserve in the World! Stansberry Report Online - 4 /20/2006 Hidden 1,000
feet beneath the surface of the Rocky Mountains resides the largest untapped oil reserve in the world is more than 2 TRILLION barrels.

On August 8, 2005 President Bush mandated its extraction. They reported this stunning news: We have more oil inside our borders, than all the other proven reserves on earth.

http://www.loveforlife.com.au/node/5492

Quote from: Akira Takahashi on March 03, 2009, 02:11:08 AM
I'm uncertain as to whether these are End Times, or just retarded times.   :pointlaugh:

  :laugh:

Wow, I didn't know about all that oil, Molly.  So simply, what do you think MAN's agenda is for the overall cover-up?  Control?

Quote from: jabcat on March 03, 2009, 02:56:45 AM

Quote from: Akira Takahashi on March 03, 2009, 02:11:08 AM
I'm uncertain as to whether these are End Times, or just retarded times.   :pointlaugh:

  :laugh:

Wow, I didn't know about all that oil, Molly.  So simply, what do you think MAN's agenda is for the overall cover-up?  Control?

It's a good question, Jab.  Questions are very important.  You only ever get the answers to the questions you ask and keep asking.  The answer is a complicated one and reads like a thriller movie.  You won't get the answer all in one place, either, at least, I haven't.  I'm not in the mood to go breaking any hearts tonight, but, the answers are there for those who want the truth.

If we could see the precipice we stand on, and still keep our courage high, --I know how hard that is to do--In my own life, I've walked through fire and I've taken back the night.  But, if we could be of good courage, we are on the verge of the most unbelievably abundant life for everyone all over the world.  Free energy, --God gave it to us over 100 years ago through Nikola Tesla.  Since then, it has been continually offered to us through inventors who have been compromised, suppressed, and even killed.

Look at this oil field--the biggest oil field on the planet, right in our own backyard!  You want oil?  You can take a bath in it any day of the week.

You see, he has given us abundance beyond measure.  All we have to do is take it back.  Trust him and take it for humanity.  Lambano is an action verb.



2 Then the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?"
      "A staff," he replied.

3 The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground."

      Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. 4 Then the LORD said to him,

"Reach out your hand and take it by the tail."

So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand.

5 "This," said the LORD, "is so that they may believe that the LORD, the God of their fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has appeared to you."

--Exodus 4

Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 03:51:34 AMSince then, it has been continually offered to us through inventors who have been compromised, suppressed, and even killed.

Molly,
  My grandfather was a genius (whom I never met personally) who invented a way of refining oil that could save the refineries millions. Ultimately a big oil company to whom he gave a presentation changed some minor details and patented their own process bypassing my grandfather's patent altogether.
   My family should have (and deserved) to be well off but instead my grandfather died a bitter soul and we just go week to week. I am not blind to the corruption that exists out there.
   Keep on fighting the good fight girl.
   Salt of the earth.  :Sparkletooth:     

 :cloud9: Me either. My mother's side of the family owned the biggest ranch in Texas, that is now a park. It's over 10,000 acres. It was my grandfather's uncle that homesteaded it and built it up. He was an old man by the time this happened, and his wife died. He married a younger woman with 3 kids, two boys and a 13 year old girl. She accused him of having sex with the girl (which he vehemently denied) and rather than call the sheriff and have a trial or anything, she just had her 2 sons hang him.

I don't know the rest of the story, although my grandfather remembered his other uncles coming in to his dad's with guns. His dad asked them where they were going, since it wasn't hunting season, and then they told him they WHERE they were going hunting. He didn't know the end of the story, he just knew according to what the family said, she had done it for the money and the ranch. Blessings....

Not to mention, almost everything Obama is currently doing is bringing up the deficit.

Quote from: Molly on March 03, 2009, 02:25:14 AM
It will blow your mind. The U.S. Geological Service issued a report in April ('08) that only scientists and oilmen/women knew was coming, but man was it big. It was a revised report (hadn't been updated since '95) on how much oil was in this area of the western 2/3 of North Dakota; western South Dakota; and extreme eastern Montana ... check THIS out:

Molly,

The links your posted are (temporarily) down.
Are the articles about the 'normal' kind of oil? The type that can be pumped out of a oil field or shale oil?
It's know for a long time the USA has a vast amount of it. The problem is that the whole country is literally destroyed by the mining. It's also very polluting and expensive because it takes 3 gallons of oil to extract 4 gallons.
But because you 'only' mention 503 billion barrels I think 'your' article  is about another type of oil because shale oil is estimated 3 trillion barrels worldwide (62% in the uSA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale


About the economy.... just watch those evening stars   :2c:

You mean like . . .Katie Couric???

Hi ww,

I know what you're talking about.  It's very costly to extract oil from shale through mining.  But apparently they have discoved a new method of driiling in recent years.  They drill straight down then drill sideways into rivers of oil flowing between the shale.  The estimates of how much is there vary because many are using very low (conservative) estimates.

I think we should set up a national oil company that belongs to the people of this country and drill those rivers of oil.  Then we will be like Kuwait, the third richest country in the world per capita because they share the wealth.  Maybe Nathan could write a song.

My computer is not working well but you might try googling bakken horizontal drilling.

Drill those rivers of oil!  Hallelujah!

Molly,

Congrats with your "Golden Girl" post  :laughing7:

Found a nice .pdf
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ftproot/petroleum/tr0565.pdf

Quote from: Nathan on March 04, 2009, 07:09:42 PM
You mean like . . .Katie Couric???

She doesn't look similar to what I had in mind  :laughing7:
(http://i.investopedia.com/inv/dictionary/terms/EveningStar.gif)

Molly :icon_flower:

Ya Blessed with Gold

Have a flower :icon_flower:

Taffy bought a horse from a farmer for $100. The farmer
agreed to deliver the horse the next day.

The next day the farmer drove up and said, "Sorry, but I have some
bad news... the horse died."

Taf replied, "Well, then just give me my money back."

The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already."

Taf said, "Ok, then, just bring me the dead horse."

The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him?"

Taf said, "I'm going to raffle him off."

The farmer said, "You can't raffle off a dead horse!"

Taf said, "Sure I can, Watch me.. I just won't tell anybody he's dead."

A month later, the farmer met up with Taf and asked, "What happened
with that dead horse?"

Taf said, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a
piece and made a profit of $998."

The farmer said, "Didn't anyone complain?"

Taf said, "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back."

Taf now works for the U.S. government. He's the one who
figured out how this "bail-out" is going to work.

 :cloud9: rofl.....that is hilarious...... :grin:

Quote from: jabcat on March 07, 2009, 01:21:31 AM
Taffy bought a horse from a farmer for $100. The farmer
agreed to deliver the horse the next day.

The next day the farmer drove up and said, "Sorry, but I have some
bad news... the horse died."

Taf replied, "Well, then just give me my money back."

The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already."

Taf said, "Ok, then, just bring me the dead horse."

The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him?"

Taf said, "I'm going to raffle him off."

The farmer said, "You can't raffle off a dead horse!"

Taf said, "Sure I can, Watch me.. I just won't tell anybody he's dead."

A month later, the farmer met up with Taf and asked, "What happened
with that dead horse?"

Taf said, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a
piece and made a profit of $998."

The farmer said, "Didn't anyone complain?"

Taf said, "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back."

Taf now works for the U.S. government. He's the one who
figured out how this "bail-out" is going to work.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Jabcat,

There may be more truth than humor to be extracted here in what you posted in regards to the actual bailout situation.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Oh yeah, brother, I definitely think there's both...

I know things are bad right now, I'm not denying that they are, although I think some (who have a vested interest in doing so) are trying to make certain things look worse than they really are, and doing some self-fulfilling prophecy creation.

But here is what Father has been laying on my heart lately about the situation:

Good old ordinary Peter was able to walk on water by simply focusing on Jesus. The second he looked at the waves, he began to sink.

Jesus warned us that men's hearts would fail them to look on the things coming on the world. Not that we should just ignore the problems, mind you. To me, this means we need to focus our attention on God, and not look at the waves. He is able to deliver us from anything, even sin and death. He will guide and direct in the days ahead, no matter what comes.

We need to hang on to Him and each other.

Blessings, all.

Thanks Doc...
Good advice.
:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Doc on March 08, 2009, 08:42:19 AM

We need to hang on to Him and each other.

So true Doc.  :thumbsup:

I would add though that, beyond 'hanging on' (which is all important) we are God's human representatives.

Since He created the waves then we are not as those who are confused by the waves.

All of a sudden, our president is being blamed for the selloff in share prices.

Yesterday, for example, the Wall Street Journal published an editorial by Michael Boskin, former chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under George H.W. Bush, claiming that "Obama's Radicalism Is Killing the Dow." In a Bloomberg News report, "Obama Bear Market' Punishes Investors as Dow Slumps," a money manager attributed the slump to uncertainty stemming from the Administration's efforts to turn things around.

As usual, the alleged experts don't have any idea what they are talking about.

For one thing, the current bear market began long before Barack Obama assumed the reins of power. Since hitting its all-time high in October 2007, the S&P 500 index has fallen by more than half, with 80 percent of those losses occurring before the January inauguration.

More important, still, are the real reasons behind the sell-off. These include the bursting of history's biggest housing bubble, which triggered a shockwave of wealth destruction that has wreaked widespread havoc throughout the economy, as well as the unraveling of a multi-trillion-dollar financial house of cards built on greed, ignorance, and fraud.

Throw in the fact that stock prices had been supported by earnings and expectations about the future that had little basis in reality and it's not hard to see why the bears have been in control during the past year-and-a-half or so.

Indeed, on valuations alone, it is easy to make the case that there is plenty more downside to come. During the similarly turbulent times of the past, including the Great Depression, World War II, the late-1970s era of stagflation, and the twin-recessions of the early-1980s, the ratio of share prices to the aggregate earnings of companies included in the S&P 500 during the prior 12-months fell to the mid-to-upper single digits before another bull market began.

Right now, in contrast, the P/E ratio of the bellwether index is around 12. Assuming that we've seen the worst as far as the economy and corporate profits are concerned -- though there are lots of reasons to believe otherwise -- stocks could still fall another 50 percent before they would represent a true "buying opportunity."

To be sure, no market moves in a straight line. Even during the period from 1929 to 1932, when share prices lost 90 percent of their value, there were six double-digit-percentage countertrend moves along the way. These included a five-month, 52 percent rally in the wake of the Great Crash, as well as a nine-week, 29% gain in early-1932, amid the depths of the Depression.

In fact, an expanding array of technical and sentiment indicators suggests that a short-term bottom is likely at hand.

Bespoke Investment Group recently noted, for example, that a weekly poll by the American Association of Individual Investors (AAII) showed that investors "are now at their most bearish levels in the history of the survey." For contrarians, that is a bullish sign, indicating that pessimism -- and the selling that goes along with it -- is somewhat overdone, at least in the short run.

My own research on the deviation between stock prices and their longer-term moving averages, which can help gauge the "intensity" of a move, reveals that the differential has reached a level not seen since mid-November, after which the market jumped 19 percent in five days. Prior to that, the last time we saw such a rubber band-like divergence was during the 1930s -- before one of those rebounds I referred to earlier.

What this means, of course, is that when the stock market does have another one of its dead cat bounces, it likely won't be because of anything our president has done.

But that won't stop another group of "experts" from claiming otherwise.

http://www.economicroadmap.com/

Molly,

Those 'experts' are only there to shift blame.
Or to lure inexperienced tradesr into a trap. The real traders are in the pit or otherwise working for the 'big money'

Yeah, this guy is pretty interesting, though.  I saw him on book tv/Cspan.  His first book gave predictions that were pretty spot on.  He now says things like--the European union is going to break up,  globalism will end, and countries will return to their nationalistic roots--which kind of surprised me.* Countries will go back to a local economy.   He also said Mexico is going to become the next Lebanon, I think he said civil war in Mexico(the drug dealers are better armed than the police and oil is running out) and our border with Mexico is going to become more of a war zone than it already is.  He has more predictions that are equally interesting and disturbing--like [drinking] water is going to become the new oil. 

But, they will all be foiled if we drill the Bakken!






* Actually, this shouldn't have surprised me because the end of Revelation refers to nations...

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

--Rev 21

 :cloud9: That's true about the oil, but Obama is talking about coal. Has no one told him that destroys the land and we have underground fires in 4 or 5 towns in the US now from abandoned coal mines that caught on fire, and there is NO WAY to put them out? The people had to leave everything behind and move. The ground is giving way under their feet, the highways go so far in and then end in sinkholes. It looks like hell, literally, and the government had to buy the whole town (s).

Everyone should be concerned about Mexico, and if I was governor of those states that form the border, I'd be seeing if I could sue the federal government for failing to protect my borders. There have been over 400 murders of women in Juarez, their bodies dumped in the desert; these are predominantly factory workers of the factories our country allowed to move out the country. No one will do anything about it, some of the federales are no doubt involved as few of them are not on the drug dealers payroll.

And if anyone has been reading the news about it, the drug cartels have killed nearly all the police in one town in the drug route TO THIS COUNTRY, and again, no one does anything. Sad, but true. Blessings....

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 08, 2009, 10:14:14 AM

Quote from: Doc on March 08, 2009, 08:42:19 AM

We need to hang on to Him and each other.

So true Doc.  :thumbsup:

I would add though that, beyond 'hanging on' (which is all important) we are God's human representatives.

Since He created the waves then we are not as those who are confused by the waves.

:thumbsup:

Yeah, Molly, I've been sensing a quick buildup to a so-called "world order", especially yesterday, heard Lou Dobbs talking about a European leader now wanting a U.S. bailout (like we could!) and that we need "global cooperation" or some such thing...so nationalism,  very interesting...I've actually been a dinasaur, advocating that we get our rear-ends from being spread out all over the world and protect and build our own country...send some aid here and there, of course, but quit trying to police the world and using most(?) of our money to do it.

The thing in Mexico actually frightens me, Card (not of the Lord, but in my flesh). I commented to my wife that just 4-5 years ago (not even that long) americans were talking about moving to Mexico, what a good deal it was...I had even checked it out some.  Then I saw on the news that some company is making an armored SUV for people to use in Mexico, that only costs a mere $250,000  :mshock:.

My wife (believer), logical, fairly positive, said "things kind of look hopeless"...I said, "yeah, in the flesh".  But our God's greater, and He will meet our needs by His riches.  Golfed with a buddy Saturday...asked Him what he thought about the economy...he said, "if it keeps going, I'm going to lose everything".  We immediately kicked into, but God will supply all our needs... :thumbsup:

TESTING THE FAITH
Pastor now tells how to prep for imminent catastrophe
Wilkerson says be ready, 'See the salvation of the Lord'


A nationally known pastor and author who predicts an imminent catastrophe of God's judgment on America is now telling concerned Christians it is time for peace and preparation, not panic.

"This is what I hear the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart concerning my own spiritual response to impending calamity," writes David Wilkerson, author of "The Cross and the Switchblade" and founder of a ministry to troubled New York street kids, on his blog today. "It is simply this: Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord."

As WND reported, Wilkerson drew attention by publishing on his blog over the weekend a vision for impending fires and riots sweeping through New York City and other cities across the country.

"An earth-shattering calamity is about to happen," he writes. "It is going to be so frightening, we are all going to tremble – even the godliest among us."

"It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires," he explains. "What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God's wrath."

After such dire words, Wilkerson was asked how people should respond to his message, and, with today's blog post, the pastor answered.

"I can only answer by sharing what the Holy Spirit is speaking to my own heart and what I am to do," writes Wilkerson. "I shared that I was led in a practical way to lay aside a month's supply of food — because I have witnessed the panic in the wake of terrorism."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91247


This is what I hear the Holy Spirit speaking to my heart concerning my own spiritual response to impending calamity. It is simply this —STAND STILL AND SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.

"And Moses said to the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will show you today...The Lord shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace" (Exodus 14:13-14).


http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/

Whats going to happen? oh yeah gloom and doom.

I like his idea of being baptised with 'a great peace--a supernatural quietness'.

I'm already feeling that baptism.


7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him,
       and he delivers them.

--Psa 34

 :cloud9: Like it or not, it is a very real possibility......

I'd say Wilkerson is overreacting, if only a bit. But, God needs to do what he needs to do to get us to wake up. And he will.

 :cloud9: Someone sent me this, and as it is in topic, here's one man's view.....


Auto Supplier Tells GM Where To Go

This is one of the greatest responses to the requests for bailout money I have seen thus far. As a supplier for the Big 3 this man received a letter from the President of GM North America, requesting support for the bail out program.  His response is well written, and has to make you proud of a guy who tells it like it is.

-------------


Dear Employees & Suppliers,

Congress and the current Administration will soon determine whether to provide immediate support to the domestic auto industry to help it through one of the most difficult economic times in our nation's history.  Your elected officials must hear from all of us now on why this support is critical to our continuing the progress we began prior to the global financial crisis.

As an employee or supplier, you have a lot at stake and continue to be one of our most effective and passionate voices. I know GM can count on you to have your voice heard.
Thank you for your urgent action and ongoing support.

Troy Clarke
President,
General Motors North America

Response from:

Gregory Knox, Pres.
Knox Machinery Company
Franklin, Ohio

Gentlemen:

In response to your request to contact legislators and ask for a bailout for the Big Three automakers please consider the following, and please pass my thoughts on to Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America.

Politicians and Management of the Big 3 are both infected with the same entitlement mentality that has spread like cancerous germs in UAW halls for the last countless decades, and whose plague is now sweeping this nation, awaiting our new "messiah," Pres-elect Obama, to wave his magic wand and make all our problems go away, while at the same time allowing our once great nation to keep "living the dream."  Believe me folks, The dream is over!

This dream where we can ignore the consumer for years while management myopically focuses on its personal rewards packages at the same time that our factories have been filled with the worlds most overpaid, arrogant, ignorant and laziest entitlement minded "laborers" without paying the price for these atrocities.  This dream where you still think the masses will line up to buy our products for ever and ever.

Don't even think about telling me I'm wrong.  Don't accuse me of not knowing of what I speak.  I have called on Ford, GM, Chrysler, TRW, Delphi, Kelsey Hayes, American Axle, and countless other automotive OEM's throughout the Midwest, during the past 30 years and what I've seen over those years in these union shops can only be described as disgusting.

Troy Clarke, President of General Motors North America, states:  "There is widespread sentiment throughout this country, and our government, and especially via the news media, that the current crisis is completely the result of bad management which it certainly is not."

You're right Mr. Clarke, it's not JUST management.  How about the electricians who walk around the plants like lords in feudal times, making people wait on them for countless hours while they drag ass so they can come in on the weekend and make double and triple time for a job they easily could have done within their normal 40 hour work week. How about the line workers who threaten newbies with all kinds of scare tactics for putting out too many parts on a shift and for being too productive.

(We certainly must not expose those lazy bums who have been getting overpaid for decades for their horrific underproduction, must we?!?)

Do you folks really not know about this stuff?!?  How about this great sentiment abridged from Mr. Clarke's sad plea:  "over the last few years we have closed the quality and efficiency gaps with our competitors."  What the hell has Detroit been doing for the last 40 years?!?  Did we really JUST wake up to the gaps in quality and efficiency between us and them?  The K car vs. the Accord?  The Pinto vs. the Civic?!?  Do I need to go on?  What a joke!

We are living through the inevitable outcome of the actions of the United States auto industry for decades. It's time to pay for your sins, Detroit.

I attended an economic summit last week where brilliant economist, Alan Beaulieu, from the Institute of Trend Research, surprised the crowd when he said he would not have given the banks a penny of "bailout money." 

"Yes, he said, this would cause short term problems," but despite what people like politicians and corporate magnates would have us believe, the sun would in fact rise the next day and the following very important thing would happen.  Where there had been greedy and sloppy banks, new efficient ones would pop up.  That is how a free market system works.  It does work if we would only let it work."

But for some nondescript reason we are now deciding that the rest of the world is right and that capitalism doesn't work - that we need the government to step in and "save us".  Save us my ass, Hell - we're nationalizing and unfortunately too many of our once fine nation's citizens don't even have a clue that this is what is really happening.

But, they sure can tell you the stats on their favorite sports teams.

Yeah - THAT'S really important, isn't it.

Does it ever occur to ANYONE that the "competition" has been producing vehicles, EXTREMELY PROFITABLY, for decades in this country?  How can that be???  Let's see.  Fuel efficient.  Listening to customers.  Investing in the proper tooling and automation for the long haul.

Not being too complacent or arrogant to listen to Dr. W. Edwards Deming four decades ago when he taught that by adopting appropriate principles of management, organizations could increase quality and simultaneously reduce costs.  Ever increased productivity through quality and intelligent planning.  Treating vendors like strategic partners, rather than like "the enemy."  Efficient front and back offices.  Non union environment.

Again, I could go on and on, but I really wouldn't be telling anyone anything they really don't already know down deep in their hearts.

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess that you have gotten yourself into - my children do this on a weekly, if not daily basis, as I did when I was their age.  I do for them what my parents did for me (one of their greatest gifts, by the way) - I make them stand on their own two feet and accept the consequences of their actions and work through it.  Radical concept, huh.  Am I there for them in the wings?  Of course - but only until such time as they need to be fully on their own as adults.

I don't want to oversimplify a complex situation, but there certainly are unmistakable parallels here between the proper role of parenting and government.  Detroit and the United States need to pay for their sins.

Bad news people - it's coming whether we like it or not. The newly elected Messiah really doesn't have a magic wand big enough to "make it all go away."  I laughed as I heard Obama "reeling it back in" almost immediately after the final vote count was tallied.  "We really might not do it in a year or in four."  Where the Hell was that kind of talk when he was RUNNING for office.

Stop trying to put off the inevitable folks.  That house in Florida really isn't worth $750,000.  People who jump across a border really don't deserve free health care benefits. That job driving that forklift for the Big 3 really isn't worth $85,000 a year.  We really shouldn't allow Wal-Mart to stock their shelves with products acquired from a country that unfairly manipulates their currency and has the most atrocious human rights infractions on the face of the globe.  That couple whose combined income is less than $50,000 really shouldn't be living in that $485,000 home.

Let the market correct itself folks - it will.  Yes it will be painful, but it's gonna' be painful either way, and the bright side of my proposal is that on the other side of it all, is a nation that appreciates what it has and doesn't live beyond its means and gets back to basics and redevelops the patriotic work ethic that made it the greatest nation in the history of the world and probably turns back to God.

Sorry - don't cut my head off, I'm just the messenger sharing with you the "bad news".  I hope you take it to heart.

Gregory J. Knox, President
Knox Machinery, Inc.
Franklin, Ohio 45005

I think that makes Knox Machinery a former supplier of GM  :laughing7:

 :cloud9: No doubt.... :laughing7:

The automakers don't need a bailout,  a bridge loan would be reasonable one where they are accountable for paying it back.

I have a stake in the automakers because I work in a dealership,   the bridge loan will help them stay afloat and retool so that they can become profitable.

The auto industry is a huge factor in our economy and I do not like bailouts in the sense that we just hand over money,  I am for conditions set so they are accountable for the money they get.

I also wish the executives would of stood up for the companies they worked for when they came under fire for flying jets to the hearings.  Business jets for most companies will increase productivity,  I've had enough with the bias and envy that only increases all the misconceptions and feeds people fears and feeds the fires of people already half scared of their own shadows.

This country is more in danger of ridiculousness due to kneejerk reactions and bias,  perhaps an impending doom is coming to america, has nothing to do with the boogy man God ready to get us all.    ooooooh God is skeeeeeery.

The Obama Deception



I think his task will be to develop an overall strategy for America in this period when really a New World Order can be created.  It's a great opportunity.  It isn't just a crisis.

--Heinz Kissinger, 2009



http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7886780711843120756

U.S. Taxpayers Risk $9.7 Trillion on Bailout Programs (Update1)

By Mark Pittman and Bob Ivry

Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- The stimulus package the U.S. Congress is completing would raise the government's commitment to solving the financial crisis to $9.7 trillion, enough to pay off more than 90 percent of the nation's home mortgages.

The Federal Reserve, Treasury Department and Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation have lent or spent almost $3 trillion over the past two years and pledged up to $5.7 trillion more. The Senate is to vote this week on an economic-stimulus measure of at least $780 billion. It would need to be reconciled with an $819 billion plan the House approved last month.



"We've seen money go out the back door of this government unlike any time in the history of our country," Senator Byron Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat, said on the Senate floor Feb. 3. "Nobody knows what went out of the Federal Reserve Board, to whom and for what purpose. How much from the FDIC? How much from TARP? When? Why?"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aGq2B3XeGKok



The $9.7 trillion in pledges would be enough to send a $1,430 check to every man, woman and child alive in the world.

I had a very strange dream in the '90s. Strange because I NEVER thought about this stuff as I was very consumed with just doing music and such.

In the dream the Mexican economy had totally collapsed and vast multitudes were starving. As a result MILLIONS suddenly came up across our borders and there was no way to stop them. The dream became very personal as roving bands of Mexicans plundered and pillaged their way through San Antonio.

In the dream my young daughters and I were at a convenience store near my home and saw them coming. We ran and hid in a back room - the clerk was killed and the store looted. I had a knife and was slashing at the men who were trying to push the door open - it was absolutely terrifying, especially because my girls were with me.

I've been out of San Antonio and that neighborhood for over 10 years so thank God it was not prophetic as far as happening to my family in that neighborhood.

Overall - we are spoiled rotten. Throughout history billions have been through real calamities and disasters scarier that my dream. Because we have had such a high degree of security for so many decades we have felt insulated, completely safe. The exception (in my lifetime) would be the atomic bomb drills in the 60's (remember you baby boomers - under the desks, hiding face? Not looking into the bright flash?).   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiI62AZTQw8&feature=related

 :cloud9: I remember those atomic drills and because of them my greatest fear was the bomb. Then I came to the Lord and He gave me His peace over being in control of the situation and I had no more fear of nuclear annihilation. I can see your Mexican dream coming to pass, though. Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2009, 10:34:26 AM
The Obama Deception



I think his task will be to develop an overall strategy for America in this period when really a New World Order can be created.  It's a great opportunity.  It isn't just a crisis.

--Heinz Kissinger, 2009

Heard someone talking about that the other day...keep the "crisis" going so more can be done to take advantage of it  :thumbdown:.

It's more like create a crisis and take full advantage of it. (like the '30s)

First earn big time. -> from Joe Plumber
Then let things crash.
Government comes to the rescue with tax money -> from Joe Plumber

Quote from: Molly on March 16, 2009, 10:34:26 AM
The Obama Deception

I think his task will be to develop an overall strategy for America in this period when really a New World Order can be created.  It's a great opportunity.  It isn't just a crisis.

--Heinz Kissinger, 2009

I already predicted this during the elections. Many here where not so fond of Bush. They had hopes with Obama would bring rest.
My opinion always was and still is that a white puppet that can't speak is replaced by a black puppet that can speech very well.

 :cloud9: That's about the size of it WW. Abraham Lincoln could not be elected today because he's too poor to buy it. I think they should put all the campaign contributions in one pot and then split it up equally among all the candidates, so no one could tip the scales (legally). Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on March 18, 2009, 02:18:44 AM
:cloud9: That's about the size of it WW. Abraham Lincoln could not be elected today because he's too poor to buy it. I think they should put all the campaign contributions in one pot and then split it up equally among all the candidates, so no one could tip the scales (legally). Blessings....

Exactly.

Why should somebody from another state or a special interest or a corporation be able to give money to a candidate from my state?  This is going on in the congress level, too.  That should be illegal.

How many did Bernie Madoff give contributions to?

Reviving this thread, as it is of special interest to me (and I know a few others).  IMO, it also connects to spokenfor's recent thread on "Brace Yourself".  SOME OF US ARE INTERESTED IN PLEASANT, PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATION OF THIS TOPIC.  This is in the Member's Lounge ("Discuss [practically] Anything Here").  There are plenty of topics on the Tent to meet everyone's interests.

So here we go.  Bailouts, incentives, government takeovers.

Obviously, IMO, we are to look to God for all our needs, and every good and perfect gift does come from the Father (Js. 1:17).  Even if you or I do some things to prepare, it is still only through His provision, grace, mercy, and blessings. 

Further, we are to seek His face, trust in His arm of protection, "buy" of Him.

However, there are multiple scriptures that speak of wisdom, prudence, preparation. 

The prudent see danger and take refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it. - Proverbs 27:12

Not to totally take this out of context, but IMO, it does give an example and set precedence;
Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered.  And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.  (Luke 22:35,36)

How do you see things shaping up?  Are you doing anything PHYSICALLY to prepare?  Any related suggestions that may help anyone interested in listening?

http://survive-economic-collapse.com/Money.html

I think that NWO is a mix of several things.
Some seem to have pagan rituals like woreshiping Lilith/the screech owl. And that kind of stuff.
I don't know exactly what aim they have with that worshipping. Return of satan?
Anyway I think the majority is just in it for the greed and power. Since Nimrod there have been leaders that are always after more, more, more. Most have used weapons for that in the past. The current generals/kings use money as a weapon. Some go real far in their greed. Not always for world domination but jet for some extra cash.
The following little story shows that clearly. It's quite a while since I've read about it the numbers/names most likely are wrong. But it doesn't matter really.
Somewhere around the time when airbags where introduced Ford had a design problem in its cars. Dunno exactly what but it caused (near) fatal accidents. Some lawsuits. Ford payed as instructed by the court. But then a document leaked. It had had calculation of the cost actually fixing all the affected cars and the costs of the court.
The fixing was more expensive so they took the cheap way out; wasting lives.
What has that to do with NWO. Nothing directly. But it does show what people do for money. Even if they have so much of it that they could live as kings for a 1000 years.

Quote from: jabcat on August 02, 2009, 07:11:41 AM
So here we go.  Bailouts, incentives, government takeovers.

The logic behind the bailouts seems sound.
Save the company. And by that save the jobs of who work there.
Huge banks/stock clearing houses nearly collaps like Morgan-Stanley. They are funded by the .gov and suddenly they are healty again. We got teh same thing overhere. Banks get .gov support because economy needs banks. What the banks do?
Get the cash rise interest rates and sit tight on there cash. So they are doing nothing to support the economy.
So basicly they just recieved a bonus and continue their old habits.

Quote from: jabcat on August 02, 2009, 07:11:41 AM
Obviously, IMO, we are to look to God for all our needs, and every good and perfect gift does come from the Father (Js. 1:17).  Even if you or I do some things to prepare, it is still only through His provision, grace, mercy, and blessings. 

Further, we are to seek His face, trust in His arm of protection, "buy" of Him.

The question is does God provide freely or does He want something in return?
Example: God doesn't like gay marriage and abortion. Perhaps only who fight that receive help.
Jabcat you wrote "seek". What exactly you mean by that? Just praying or doing things in real life like I mentioned above.
God doesn't seem to do much directly apart from the flood and Sodom. He helped His people in wars etc but it was always the people doing the fighting. (with Godly background support)
So I think seeking is more than reading a few extra verses....

"Seek" is a very good question.  Without thinking it through thoroughly, I can only share some thoughts I have on it.

Yes praying, being sensitive to what I believe to be His Spirit's leading (sometimes "get it", sometimes miss it).  Reading scripture.  For me that's starting each day with prayer and scripture reading.  Remembering to worship, just saying "Praise You God", thanking Him for blessings.  By doing so, meaning to love Him first and put Him first.  Attempting to humble my heart before Him and His will.  One of my favorite scriptures is about "walking humbly before our God".  Through the day praying/talking with Him, often as I feel Him prompting me to do so about different things.  Praying for other people.  Attempting to forgive others who have hurt me (or I perceive have done so).  My natural, fleshly tendency is to become angry and lash out.  God has worked and worked and worked with me for years, humbling me, convicting me, teaching me to be more loving, forgiving, to lash out more...LOL, I meant 'less'.  I still do, but He has really helped me with this.  It's His Spirit working through me to accomplish things I cannot do or will myself to do.  I am unable.

So to me, that's seeking Him, seeking His face.  Then as I walk with Him, I believe He gives me guidance, wisdom, the ability to make better decisions.  I have lately been feeling the urgent need to make some preparations for myself and my family - and as He enables and provides, I am so doing.  So as I seek Him, then other things fall into place.  He just brings this scripture to mind - "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these other things shall be added unto you".

So yes, also some of the things being discussed - as a byproduct of putting Him first and with His help, walking in His ways.  He leads us into truth.  Step by step, little by little.

Hope that at least pretty well answers your question.  Only by His power and enablement.  "In Him I live and breathe and have my being"..."I, yet not I", only leaves Him.  :bigGrin:

Surviving the coming economic crisis........

I read that article about "what to do" ........
buy up so much silver, HIDE IT IN THE CEREAL BOX....... :2c: :dontknow:

OK, everybody that does this, better PRAY too that a windstorm
doesn't come along and "blow" the cereal box away.

Just "think" about the safety of hiding silver in a cereal box!!!!

Some of us should be  practiced up ........been surviving a while.  :bgdance:

Quote from: Redlettervoice on August 02, 2009, 11:54:50 AM
OK, everybody that does this, better PRAY too that a windstorm
doesn't come along and "blow" the cereal box away.

Just make sure the box is heavy.
The question I ask myself is: If there is a real crisis with food shortage do people actually want to trade food for silver?
You can have a 1000 cereal boxes full of silver but still you will starve to death without the cereal....

May 11, 2009

DRAMATIC DEVELOPMENT:

WTP Federal Lawsuit to Ban All Electronic Voting Heads for Trial
Discovery Begins, Jury Will Decide the Law

In 2007, WTP instigated a federal lawsuit in New York seeking to hold election officials in all fifty states accountable for their deprivation of the People's fundamental Right to Vote because of the use of non-verifiable electronic and mechanical machine-based vote counting.

The case was dubbed the "National Clean Elections Lawsuit," or NCEL.




Although a 2008 Order from the U.S. District Court in Albany removed all the non-New York defendants, as of last week, the Court ordered the remaining parties to commence preparations for a jury trial.

Click here to read the U.S. District Court's Scheduling Order.


It must be noted that this is the first federal lawsuit ever to be approved for trial directly challenging the constitutional integrity of a state's official election procedures which are totally dependent, almost without exception, upon machine-based vote counting.



In the complaint, WTP supporters from all fifty states participated as plaintiffs arguing that the People have a fundamental, natural Right to know their votes are being accurately counted, and that it is unconstitutional for the Government to count our votes in secret -- which is precisely what happens when the "hidden" mechanisms of a machine (whether electronic or mechanical) counts the votes and produces a total.



The complaint further asserts that machine-based vote counting provides abundant opportunities for criminal sabotage, election fraud and errors of all types to occur at almost every step of the election process, beginning with the manufacture and maintenance of vote counting machines, and extending well into election night when machine-contrived vote totals are allegedly passed to, and broadcast by, a (privately-owned) national corporate media consortium without any official, public certification of local vote totals.   



The WTP complaint requests the Court impose not only a total ban all vote counting machines (mechanical and electronic) but to impose on state election officials a detailed manual vote counting and certification procedure based solely on the use of plain paper ballots, hand-marked, stored, counted and certified at each precinct level polling location, in full view of the public, at all times.


For more information, research and all the legal pleadings,
please go to the NCEL Lawsuit Information Center.





Elections May Never Be The Same Again



The historic NCEL lawsuit, tentatively scheduled for trial next year, now enters what is known as the pre-trial "discovery" phase.

Under the federal rules of civil procedure, the WTP plaintiffs are now entitled to issue interrogatories, subpoena witnesses, take sworn depositions, and demand documents, records and data from state officials and other defendants (who are liable in both their personal and official capacities), as well as records from third parties (such as corporations) which may have information pertinent to the controversy before the Court.


It is imperative to recognize the historical opportunity before us: 


We have had a U.S. District Court deny a request by the state of New York to dismiss the lawsuit for lack of jurisdiction, and

We have secured the Right to have a jury of our fellow citizens essentially decide whether the use of "black box" vote counting machines passes constitutional muster, and

We have an Order from a U.S. District Court stating that all the original Plaintiffs (removed from the New York case) are still entitled to bring similar charges against election officials in their own states, and

We have an opportunity to force the state of New York to produce sworn testimony and official records which may, following trial, result in a federal court order banning, for all time, the use of all electronic voting machines (and other contrivances) as well as patently deficient election procedures, which in the past have enabled massive election fraud to be perpetrated virtually without detection.



In short, the People have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity through the NCEL lawsuit, to seize back control of the election machinery that state bureaucrats and the political parties have hijacked and used against the People to systemically deny us not only our Right to vote, but the fundamental Right to a enjoy a government of own creation and representation of our own choice. 



One must wonder after all, why it seems that those who "win" our elections and "represent" us have - despite our pleas and repeated Petitions, continued to destroy our Constitution and Republic without apparent constraint.  Is it possible that flawed and fraudulent elections have denied the People our true political voice?



This lawsuit is now our best chance to bring an end to election chicanery and restore integrity to the most fundamental process the People have designed into the Constitution for directly establishing and maintaining their servant government.


This is our chance to finally force government officials to publicly explain, under oath, exactly why they need anything more than a stack of paper ballots, a pen and a wooden box to conduct a fair and honest election.


http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2009-05-11.htm

What our founders knew--


6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

--Rev 1


"kings'

G935
βασιλεύς
basileus
bas-il-yooce'
Probably from G939 (through the notion of a foundation of power); a sovereign (abstractly, relatively or figuratively): - king.

Molly, the people taking back the government is an interesting thought.  Surely 100-150 years ago there wasn't this much corruption, starting at the top down, as there is today.  Obviously we weren't alive then, but it seems from history (whether it's accurate or not) that men (generally) served more from duty/obligation/a desire to help improve things rather than either the career politicians or the narcissistic power-hungry socialist elite we now have.  I need to keep reminding myself God's in control and will have the final say. 

WW, I know what you're saying about silver and cereal.  IMO, it's a good thing to have BOTH if God provides the means to do so.  What do you think about that?  Diversification, as it were.

Funny RLV.  My wife was just kidding about the cereal box thing today.  I told her I didn't trust it.  However, I now have a better understanding of what this was all about;  http://lslinks.laughingsquid.com/1960s-country-corn-flakes-commercial

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jab, from my point of view, there are some things which must be accepted as a given to understand what is going on here.  One is that statement above that satan deceives the whole world.  That means that all of us is or has been deceived by satan.  This is meant to alert us, not accuse us.  We must constantly ask ourselves, where am I being deceived?

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
--Thomas Jefferson

vigilance

the process of paying close and continuous attention
alertness, watchfulness, wakefulness

Is there anything there that Jesus would not also advise us?

In fact, Jesus reproves the disciples only a few times, and one is for not being alert and watching.

Mark 14:37
And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

"watch"

G1127
γρηγορεύω
grēgoreuō
gray-gor-yoo'-o
From G1453; to keep awake, that is, watch (literally or figuratively): - be vigilant, wake, (be) watch (-ful).

We can see how hard this is if those who walked with Jesus in the flesh could not even do it.  We can also see how important it is because our Savior rarely reproved his disciples.

If we are watchful, then, what will we see?  We will see how we are being deceived constantly.  We will see who is deceiving us.  We will see how they are deceiving us.  And, we will know what to do about it, one step at a time.

In these times, it is getting easier to see the truth because the wheat and the tares are growing up.  You can't tell the difference when they are tender shoots.  They look alike.  It is not until they grow into maturity that you can tell the difference.

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

--Rev 22


It is the angel who will lock up satan for 1000 years.  Angels are men--messengers, prophets, priests, and teachers.

Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 12:14:26 AM
I'd say Wilkerson is overreacting, if only a bit. But, God needs to do what he needs to do to get us to wake up. And he will.

Doc - how would you wake someone up whom you loved? Set them on fire? Stab them in the leg with a knife? Of course not! People like Wilkerson are just seeing their own hard-headed-ness and reacting in kind. 

Quote from: firstborn888 on August 04, 2009, 09:08:02 AM

Quote from: Doc on March 11, 2009, 12:14:26 AM
I'd say Wilkerson is overreacting, if only a bit. But, God needs to do what he needs to do to get us to wake up. And he will.

Doc - how would you wake someone up whom you loved? Set them on fire? Stab them in the leg with a knife? Of course not! People like Wilkerson are just seeing their own hard-headed-ness and reacting in kind. 

I can see that...

Got a little reminder tossed my way today - "In the world you will have trouble but take courage for I have conquered the world."  John 33:16

If God helps us prepare, He has helped us.  If we have "no resources" with which to prepare, He'll still prepare us anyway.  Any way we slice it, He's all we need!

Quote from: jabcat on February 27, 2009, 08:35:53 AM
How are you guys feeling and what are you thinking about the economy?  I was talking with a friend of mine, who if a believer at all, is a somewhat "distant" one.  I think he believes in God, but not sure where his trust in Jesus is.  Was raised Catholic, Catholic school with the "mean nuns", doesn't really have anything to say about Jesus, etc., unless I bring it up.

Anyway, he is a Democrat, voted for Obama.  He talked today about he and his fiancee's (ex-wife, getting remarried) different thoughts on things with the economy, what they're doing to prepare if an absolute "crash" occurred.  He's a pretty logical, not overly-reactive guy.  One thing he told me though bears some further research, and if it's true, IMO it's an attention getter.  He said that many rich people, especially in New York, are quietly moving out of the country, "because they know it's [the crash/disaster] coming".

I believe God's going to fix everything in the end.  My thoughts are what may occur in the meantime.  I think some of us here at TM may believe it's only getting better from here, with things building to the Kingdom;  some of us may see things more as the "great falling away", "will He find faith on the earth", and the earth will be cleansed with fire before the new heaven and new earth;  and some surely have mixtures of various other POVs.

In general, I think these are upsetting times for a lot of folks, and is at the very least an opportunity for us to share with others, both our financial resources and the message of Life.

Paul said he had never seen the righteous forsaken or begging for bread.

I thank God often for His gracious blessings on me and my family.  He has given us food, shelter, and protection. 

How's everyone doing in these unsettled times?  Opinions, thoughts, feelings are great, but does anyone also have any specific, absolutely certain words from the Lord on these matters?

God's blessing, James.

Trust in the Lord,
If he can feed 5000 people with a few fishes and a loaf of bread he can provide for you. Do not doubt it ..Proclaim it. As to the world getting better or worse, remember God is with you.

In a nutshell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTYyZfNOJ30

Quote from: jabcat on August 12, 2009, 03:29:51 AM
Got a little reminder tossed my way today - "In the world you will have trouble but take courage for I have conquered the world."  John 33:16

If God helps us prepare, He has helped us.  If we have "no resources" with which to prepare, He'll still prepare us anyway.  Any way we slice it, He's all we need!

He IS ALLwe need.  :goodpost:

  Luke 12;22  Then Jesus said to his disciples;'Therefore I tell

you,do not worry about your life,what you will eat, or about your

body,what you will wear.Life is more than food and the body

more than clothes.Consider the ravens;they do not sow or

reap,they have no store room or barn,yet,God feeds them.

........

.....v 30 for the pagan world runs after all such things, and the

Father knows that you need them.But, seek His kingdom,and

these things will be given you as well.


  Do not be afraid...........

little flock,for your Father has been pleased to give you the

kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor.Provide

purses for yourselves that will not wear out. A

treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no theif

comes near and no moth  destroys.  For where your treasure

is,there your heart will be also.
         

 :goodpost:

Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, Obama's top health care advisor, advocates denying care to elderly and disabled

August 12, 10:08 AMDC Catholic Living ExaminerDenise Hunnell, M.D.

Allocating medical care based on the subjective judgment of the value of a patient's life is contrary to Catholic teaching. The value of treatment to any given patient can be ethically evaluated, but every patient's life is of inestimable worth.

Those advocating for President Obama's health care reform label concerns about rationing of care and denial of care to the elderly and disabled as irrational and the product of fear mongering. However, if you read the work of Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, who is the health-policy advisor at the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and a member of the Federal Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research (FCCCER) and also the brother of the President's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, these concerns seem very reasonable indeed. The current legislation does not specify medical treatments to be covered. Rather, it delegates these decisions to a Health Benefits Advisory Council. This panel is advised by the FCCCER. That is why the ideology of Dr. Emanuel is very relevant to concerns about rationing of health care.

In January, 2009, Dr. Emanuel published a paper in the Lancet [Persad, Govind, Alan Wertheimer, and Ezekiel J. Emanuel. "Principles for allocation of scarce medical interventions." The Lancet 373 (Jan 31,2009): 423-31]. In it he argues for the use of a "Complete Lives Systems" method of allocating care. From the abstract:

We recommend an alternative system--the complete lives system--which prioritises younger people who have not yet live a complete life and also incorporates prognosis, save the most lives, lottery, and instrumental value principles.

In defending this approach against charges of ageism, Dr. Emanuel claims that because everyone was young once, prioritizing the young over the old is not discrimination:

Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different states rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years.

This system also treats human beings as commodities, evaluating their lives as "investments":

Consideration of the importance of complete lives also supports modifying the youngest-first principle by prioritising adolescents and young adults over infants. Adolescents have received substantial education and parental care, investments that will be wasted without a complete life. Infants by contrast, have not yet received these investments. Similarly, adolescence brings with it a developed personality capable of forming and valuing long-term plans whose fulfillment requires a complete life.



Lifesite News reports that in a Hastings Center Report, 1996, Emanuel also spoke of denying care to the disabled:

In a separate 1996 article for the Hastings Center Report, Emanuel spoke about rationing care away from those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens" to the non-disabled, adding "An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia."

This is the ideology that will be guiding the Health Benefits Advisory Council in the current health care reform legislation.

http://www.examiner.com/x-9452-DC-Catholic-Living-Examiner~y2009m8d12-Dr-Ezekiel-Emanuel-Obamas-top-health-care-advisor-advocates-denying-care-to-elderly-and-disabled



Anyone else getting a sick feeling about these people?
Hmm...where have we seen such policies before?  (Hint:Germany, 1933) :sigh:

 :cloud9: Scary bunch of people.......Blessings.....

Quote from: sheila on August 14, 2009, 06:01:35 AM
  Luke 12;22  Then Jesus said to his disciples;'Therefore I tell

you,do not worry about your life,what you will eat, or about your

body,what you will wear.Life is more than food and the body

more than clothes.Consider the ravens;they do not sow or

reap,they have no store room or barn,yet,God feeds them.

........

.....v 30 for the pagan world runs after all such things, and the

Father knows that you need them.But, seek His kingdom,and

these things will be given you as well.


  Do not be afraid...........

little flock,for your Father has been pleased to give you the

kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor.Provide

purses for yourselves that will not wear out. A

treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no theif

comes near and no moth  destroys.  For where your treasure

is,there your heart will be also.
         

Sends "chills" on me.........so real........so God speak.  Thank you, Lord.

This "curse" of "trusting in man" has got to be DESTROYED!  I wish
I could get OFF the meds that I'm on, some of them, anyway. Because
man cannot "see" ......he errs, and we all fall into the trap.  Even years
ago, the doctors and the drug companies began to "get rich" at OUR
expense! Now, probably the "health care" industry has affected our
economy as much as anything.  The costs are sky high.  For "every" person they have gotten "rich" treating. With their hit and miss tactics. I take blood pressure med, because I had a stroke.  I take
other meds because I had a tumor removed......and the neuro in my
head is absolutely a MIRACLE that I am alive.......I do NOT condemn
myself or anyone else, absolutely not, but wouldn't it be wonderful
if all this stuff we could do w/o.  When I do not take my blood pressure,
it is not one hour til I am about to explode...........so you see how much
faith I would have to have to lay it down.  But it is God that works in
you both to "will" and to do.  Not me.  God.  I know that I can present
my body to God "just as it is" ..........and He does not put me down
for any of it.  No no no.  None of us.  We live in this world. 
We as Christians "bear the marks" in our "bodies."  Other "lords"
beside thee have had dominion over our what? "bodies."
And over our economy too. But people, the "world" belongs to HIM.
He is higher than us.  His thoughts are.  And if I can think it, He can
do it.  I still believe.

But you get my drift.  Pray ...........for us all.

QuoteThis "curse" of "trusting in man" has got to be DESTROYED!

I know, but I am praying for Jesus to raise up his brothers, and I'm assuming they will look like...men.

Israel prayed for a King. God finally gave it to them, IMO, at least in part to teach them lessons.
My hope is that God will use this situation to wake people up.  We'll see, but I hope/trust God has a plan (specifically for America) rather than just letting us drown in our own dung.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 08:04:51 AM
Anyone else getting a sick feeling about these people?
Hmm...where have we seen such policies before?  (Hint:Germany, 1933) :sigh:

Yes, I do not like a policy that would actually do that, what some advocate for is not always what they get which is a good thing.


I am also tired of something else.  I hear how wonderful our current health care system is,  oh the virtues are held up as if nothing needs changed.

I really am sick and tired of the people who pretend to care, I have lost count of the people who I tell about my wifes problems with the health care I pay 140 dollars a week for.  They deny paying for medicine that the "approved" doctor wants to prescribe my wife.   I cannot afford the medicine BECAUSE I PAY 140 DOLLARS A WEEK ON THE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE.

But all I get is the blind look and the comments,  "oh that's too bad"  screw you.

Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2009, 05:26:18 PM
Israel prayed for a King. God finally gave it to them, IMO, at least in part to teach them lessons.
My hope is that God will use this situation to wake people up.  We'll see, but I hope/trust God has a plan (specifically for America) rather than just letting us drown in our own dung.

It's satan's economy again, this time applied to health care.  There can't possibly be enough to go around, therefore we have to prioritise who gets to live and who gets to die--abortion for adults, so to speak.  I wonder if they would apply such insane notions to their own loved ones or if some are more equal than others.



Proverbs 8:36
But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 05:33:01 PM
 I wonder if they would apply such insane notions to their own loved ones or if some are more equal than others.

I'm sure that the owners of insurance companies do not deal with the problems my wife has in obtaining medicine,  you can count on that.

 Hey,guys...

 It just shows me the TOTAL INADAQUACY AND LACK OF LOVE

THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD HAS FOR IT'S SUBJECTS.


 He told 'Israel' when they demanded a King like the nations

around them..that 'KING' would TAKE TAKE TAKE.

 All these great 'problems and dilemas' these governments are

expierencing,are as 'nothing' for HIM TO HANDLE.


 Sickness..ageing..poverty...death..corruption etc  all the

effects of 'sins wages'...become a 'moot point' when the free

 gift is given.


  Those that serve and love Mammon will find that the purse

 has a 'hole' in it. Robbers and theives will steal it away,

 How is this so? Because of sickness and death and sin

 people fall into want...because of sin..people are not

 prospered by God. Until there is 'no more curse' or wickedness

 there will be a lack of blessing and prosperity.


 It is like the 7 cows of plenty[blessings] that were eaten up

by the 7

 skinny cows[want]. We all fall into want when old

 age,feebleness,sickness and poverty sap our strength,health

 and resources.[terrible wages of death/curses]


 Thanks be to the GREATER JOSEPH that stored up 'grain'

to sustain our lives....eternally. And when...He gathers

 His wheat into the barn of heaven...there is bread aplenty

 up there!!  He will open the storehouse/gates of Heaven

and pour out a BLESSING UNTIL THERE IS NO MORE WANT


  Malachi 3;10  You are under a curse,the whole nation of

you,because you are robbing me.Bring the whole tithe into the

storehouse,that there may be food in my house."Test me in

this",says the LORD ALMIGHTY, 'and see if I will not throw open

the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that

you will not have room enough for it.

 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops,and the vines in

your feild will not cast their fruit,says the Lord Almighty.


 'You have have said harsh things against me.Yet you ask,

what have we said against you?You have said,'it is futile to

serve God.What did we gain by carrying out His requirements,


and going about like mourners  before the Lord Almighty?


But now we call the arrogant blessed.Certainly the evildoers

prosper,and even those who challenge God escape.


 Then those who feared the Lord,talked with each other,and

the Lord listened and heard.A scroll of remembrance was written

in His presence,concerning those who feared the Lord and

honored His name.


 They will be mine,says the Lord Almighty,in the day when I

make up my treasured possession.I will spare them,just as in

compassion a man spares his son who serves him.

And you will again see the distinction between the righteous

and the wicked.


....But for you who revere my name the sun of righteousness

will rise with healing in it's wings.And you will go out and leap

like calves released from the stall.Then YOU will trample down

the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on

the day that I do these things,says the Lord Almighty.


  I feel the above scriptures is so important in the light of the salvation of All mankind. The saints may say in their hearts..why should I go about mourning when all mankind are being saved..and even the wicked will be blessed.

  And Red, don't be concerned...for what do you know that God let Egypt/this world s medical system, benefit your needy flesh/
sustain it/until He comes with your healing...Just as Pharoahs
grain was stored up to sustain Joseph's family for awhile.

 Evidently, if He is sustaining you..it is for HIS

 PURPOSE,SURELY


  Love to all His saints

   THE CRUX OF THE MATTER



    WE ARE HERE........


    Matthew 27;15  Now it was the govenors custom at the feat

   to RELEASE A PRISONER CHOSEN BY THE CROWD.

  At that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas.

   So,when the crowd had gathered,Pilate asked them,

  'WHICH ONE DO YOU WANT me to release to you[Matt 16;19]

   BARRABASS OR JESUS WHO IS CALLED CHRIST?

   For he knew it was out of envy that they handed Jesus

over to him.

  v21  Which of the two do you want me to release to you?

   asked the govenor?

  Barrabass they answered...

  What shall I do then,with Jesus who is called Christ?



   Matthew 16;19

   I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven;

   WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH IS BOUND IN HEAVEN

   AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH

   WILL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN


   Saints....choose Christ...loose Him on earth and in Heaven

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 14, 2009, 05:42:46 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 05:33:01 PM
 I wonder if they would apply such insane notions to their own loved ones or if some are more equal than others.

I'm sure that the owners of insurance companies do not deal with the problems my wife has in obtaining medicine,  you can count on that.

Yes, I hear you.  I have a friend who pays 15,000 a year for health insurance because she doesn't qualify for any program, and she is rarely sick.  But, there are ways to address that without jumping from the frying pan into the fire with a 1000 page bill that gives this type of control to the government.

I don't want rahm emmanuel's brother deciding if I live or die, or his father, or his dog.  I don't want him anywhere near me.

Emanuel was born in Chicago, Illinois to Jewish parents.[4] His father, Benjamin M. Emanuel, a Jerusalem-born pediatrician, was a member of the militant Zionist group Irgun.



The Irgun was the armed expression of the nascent ideology of Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. He expressed this ideology as "every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[1]

Some of the better-known attacks by the Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with Lehi) on 9 April 1948.

In 1947 "the British army in Mandate Palestine banned the use of the term terrorist to refer to the Irgun zvai Leumi ... because it implied that British forces had reason to be terrified",[2] but this did not stopped others referring to it as a terrorist organization, examples of which include the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry,[3] several media sources,[4][5][6][7][8] and a number of prominent world and Jewish figures.[9][10][11] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare".[12] The Israeli government had designated Irgun as a terrorist organization according to the "Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance" No 33 of 5708-1948 - 23 Sep 1948 (claimed to be adopted for the specific purpose of dissolving Irgun and Lehi)[13] and disbanded it in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

Man, I agree with you all on this!  Rosie, IMO, no condemnation for taking meds you need.  If God will get glory, if it's His will, He can miraculously heal you tomorrow.  Or, He may continue, even for awhile, to meet your needs through the meds and an ability to acquire them.

Paul and Molly, I agree there are some serious things that need to be fixed, including Paul's wife's medicine issues, Molly your friend's, etc.  Those things need looked at and reworked.  I wish we/they had the sense to fix a few things by applying some real solutions rather than eventually blowing up the whole system while pursuing a Marxist agenda of bigger, more powerful governmental control/reinforcing dependence on Big Brother.

Prayer and an awakening.  Maybe God's given us the evil we need to wake us from our slumber.  I'm trying to not be so much, trying to remember the Kingdom, but I for one am pretty (honestly) angry.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 06:35:27 PM
  But, there are ways to address that without jumping from the frying pan into the fire with a 1000 page bill that gives this type of control to the government.

Ok, what is the way to fix my problem?

I'm personally (probably to my shame and should be a confession) pretty ticked.  I'm struggling between "respect those in authority" and wanting to march on Washington with a group of American citizens and "throw the bums out and get them out of our business".   :sigh:  :dontknow:

Keep telling them what we want and need?  Keep insisting we're paying attention and are literally sick and tired of them pushing their own junk down our throats?  Stop voting for people that are evil/vote for the "less evil" of the options?  :dontknow:   Keep praying that God move evil out of the way, while at the same time paying attention to His use of evil to wake us up?  I'm searching...

I'm personally looking at more and more natural/alternative medicinals, about half-way there...more to research and learn, haven't stepped out in a couple of areas yet.  A little tentative and uninformed yet.  I don't claim to have all the answers, maybe there are some things that would help others too that would help us bypass some of "the machine"...I may decide to either use more natural, less expensive things God gives us (including His using these things and/or otherwise healing me) or die and go on to be with Him.  Not there yet.  Thinking.  Any ideas on this besides "you're nuts"?

I really am trying to help Paul.  Do you think it might be possible that there are some less expensive natural alternatives that could help your wife?  I think the insurance situation you describe really stinks.

Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2009, 07:18:25 PM
I'm personally looking at more and more natural/alternative medicinals, about half-way there

I'm not against any solution but the problem is that despite us all being human we are all very different in how we react. Not all conditions will be fixed just because they eat right and the people driving this idea promote it more out of fighting the machine and because it worked for them rather than taking things as a whole into consideration.

People scoff about medicine yet,  not only are we living longer, but so are our pets.

This also does not mean the solution to every problem is a pill, but no one can deny that sometimes it is.  Sometimes it is losing weight, sometimes it is drinking more water.   Sometimes it is a combination of them all.

But I see a problem on both sides, I am saddened by thr perceived lack of giving a crap about actually changing anything for the good  from those who are railing against the current machine (NOT ALL) and an apathy on the other side to just throw it to the government.

Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2009, 07:32:44 PM
I really am trying to help Paul.  Do you think it might be possible that there are some less expensive natural alternatives that could help your wife?  I think the insurance situation you describe really stinks.

Well, I do not know, it is heart issues that make my wifes heart race, she is not excessively overweight, we spend more money on healthy foods rather than just eating cheap which is almost always less healthy according to current knowledge. She may not excersize as much as said, but she is active and doesn't sit around all the time.   Gets plenty of rest and contrary to some who say it is stress my wife is actually at a point where there is little to be stressed about and it gets worse.

But who's gonna take a look at my wife and offer those alternatives for either free or what we can afford in order to gain that knowledge?

I hear you.  I know "naturopaths" and such exist, I tend to rely on information-gathering which I know, is tricky regarding reliability.  (No judgments, but a question - anyone ever check out Lorraine Day [ http://www.drday.com/ ] and what do you think about her?)

I don't have all the answers, but I'm thinking probably together, as a group that will begin to speak up, share with each other, try to help, that with God's help, those answers do exist.  A piece here and a piece there.  Maybe something good is beginning to happen.  I agree, the government ABSOLUTELY doesn't have all the answers, and that's what's frustrating me, the more and more they seem to insist they do - "just trust us", said the fox to the chicken.

More ideas guys?  And always, let's pray for each other  :thumbsup:.

Quote from: jabcat on August 14, 2009, 07:51:31 PM
I hear you.  I know "naturopaths" and such exist, I tend to rely on information-gathering which I know, is tricky regarding reliability.  No judgments, but a question - anyone ever check out Lorraine Day [ http://www.drday.com/ ] and what do you think about her?

Never heard of her, but I'll check it out.

Quote
I don't have all the answers, but I'm thinking probably together, as a group that will begin to speak up, share with each other, try to help, that with God's help, those answers do exist.  A piece here and a piece there.  Maybe something good is beginning to happen.  I agree, the government ABSOLUTELY doesn't have all the answers, and that's what's frustrating me, the more and more they seem to insist they do - "just trust us", said the fox to the chicken.

More ideas guys?  And always, let's pray for each other  :thumbsup:.

Here is my main point, if the current effort of "change" is actually bad, then of course, let's not do it.   However stopping those efforts changes absolutely nothing for my situation.

So thanks for offering something I can look at.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 14, 2009, 07:12:36 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 06:35:27 PM
  But, there are ways to address that without jumping from the frying pan into the fire with a 1000 page bill that gives this type of control to the government.

Ok, what is the way to fix my problem?

I don't know but I do know the answer isn't more big government.  How is their track record so far? Haven't they already spent social security so that the baby-boomers will be retiring to empty coffers? I think maybe doing it at the state level might be better--but we aren't seeing rave reviews coming out of massachusetts, either [because of the cost]. The massachusetts plan would fix my friend's problem, but I don't know about yours. Maybe a subsidy with no strings attached by the feds to the states?  Keeping it close to home is always better in terms of keeping things from getting out of control. 

The other problem is the doctors.  How much more can we abuse doctors before they start walking or closing their practices?  I have heard that a third of the family practicioners are over 65 and will be retiring in a few years.   We need happy doctors to get good healthcare, too.  Give them some tort reform, and protect their salaries and standard of care. 

QuoteI don't know

What does a shoulder shrug do for my problem even if I agree with everything you say?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 14, 2009, 09:48:11 PM

QuoteI don't know

What does a shoulder shrug do for my problem even if I agree with everything you say?

I just gave you a solution--the state level.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 09:58:53 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 14, 2009, 09:48:11 PM

QuoteI don't know

What does a shoulder shrug do for my problem even if I agree with everything you say?

I just gave you a solution--the state level.

So I can go to the state now and get medicine for my wife?

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 14, 2009, 10:04:47 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 09:58:53 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 14, 2009, 09:48:11 PM

QuoteI don't know

What does a shoulder shrug do for my problem even if I agree with everything you say?

I just gave you a solution--the state level.

So I can go to the state now and get medicine for my wife?

I don't know your situation.  I don't know if Obama's plan will fix it.  I don't know if the massachusetts plan would fix it.

But, I do know one thing:  Obama just told me he doesn't care what I think or what anyone else thinks:  he is going to pass his bill this year. 

That's not representative government unless he can somehow get people behind a bill that they currently do not want.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 10:15:17 PM
But, I do know one thing:  Obama just told me he doesn't care what I think or what anyone else thinks:  he is going to pass his bill this year. 

I'm not arguing your perspective, there  is no use in that.   You can be right and I'll agree with everything you say, and you know what?


My wife still needs medicine.

Quote

That's not representative government unless he can somehow get people behind a bill that they currently do not want.

And this problem existed for me before Obama.  So if perhaps you felt Bush cared about what you think, you know what?

My wife still needs medicine.

QuoteMy wife still needs medicine.

I have another friend who has ms, and she is getting expensive medications paid for through a combination of medicare (I think, on a disability program) and private insurance (because she is still young).

What if the Obama plan doesn't help your wife?  Do you know if it will?

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 10:37:40 PM

QuoteMy wife still needs medicine.

What if the Obama plan doesn't help your wife?  Do you know if it will?

Well, have you read through the 1017 page document at all?  I have not finished it but there is a good chance it will.

Now do you have a quicker solution to cause me to abandon my support for it or not?

Hi everyone...Canada's system isn't so bad as they make it out to be.I live in canada and don't know of anyone who did not receive the attention they required.
I do know of a lot of people who take advantage of the doctor's office and waste a lot of time though!
When I see all the people yelling in the town hall meetings, it seems to be the white middle class who seem to be afraid that someone below them on the"economic scale" might get the same benefits as them.Heaven forbid they end up at the same medical office as someone off the "street"
God has a plan for everyone...so does the obama medical plan!
blessings :icon_king:

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 10:37:40 PM

QuoteMy wife still needs medicine.

I have another friend who has ms, and she is getting expensive medications paid for through a combination of medicare (I think, on a disability program) and private insurance (because she is still young).

I do not argue what works, my dad would be dead if not for a government program that has helped him get the care he needs in his elderly years.  I am glad your friend is benefitting from that also and would never argue to remove it.

 

QuoteI have not finished it but there is a good chance it will.

How?

Quote from: onlytruth on August 14, 2009, 11:05:12 PM
Hi everyone...Canada's system isn't so bad as they make it out to be.I live in canada and don't know of anyone who did not receive the attention they required.
I do know of a lot of people who take advantage of the doctor's office and waste a lot of time though!
When I see all the people yelling in the town hall meetings, it seems to be the white middle class who seem to be afraid that someone below them on the"economic scale" might get the same benefits as them.Heaven forbid they end up at the same medical office as someone off the "street"
God has a plan for everyone...so does the obama medical plan!
blessings :icon_king:

I have met people who come here from Canada to pay privately for healthcare because of the poor level of service and long waits they say they get there.  Obviously, they are voting with their pocketbooks and their feet.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 11:31:40 PM

QuoteI have not finished it but there is a good chance it will.

How?

Because it talks about fixing things in the current system (rather than removing it like some say) that is causing the denial of coverage I am paying for with my pocket book now.  The reason we can't get the medicine is its too new,  we are biding our time in hopes that it's newness wears off and I just got off the phone with a representative of the insurance company that may be of some help.   The grace of God IS with us as she could be dead while we wait for both the government and people against the government with no solution for me now.   I'm for a solution down the road so no one else has to go through this.

But I believe the newness of a medicine will not matter under the proposed plan, or they will force insurance companies to pay.

So have you read any of the actual document?

Perhaps when I am done reading the whole thing I will have a different opinion,  but so far those telling me it's bad have not read it at all but they are full of weblinks.  I hope you are not like them.

Quote from: Molly on August 14, 2009, 11:33:15 PM

Quote from: onlytruth on August 14, 2009, 11:05:12 PM
Hi everyone...Canada's system isn't so bad as they make it out to be.I live in canada and don't know of anyone who did not receive the attention they required.
I do know of a lot of people who take advantage of the doctor's office and waste a lot of time though!
When I see all the people yelling in the town hall meetings, it seems to be the white middle class who seem to be afraid that someone below them on the"economic scale" might get the same benefits as them.Heaven forbid they end up at the same medical office as someone off the "street"
God has a plan for everyone...so does the obama medical plan!
blessings :icon_king:

I have met people who come here from Canada to pay privately for healthcare because of the poor level of service and long waits they say they get there.  Obviously, they are voting with their pocketbooks and their feet.

I'm sure people that have enough money to pay can get ahead of both of us if they green the pockets of the right people.

Hi Molly,...if you don't want to wait ,it is your option to travel abroad.Although if the problem becomes a life or death situation,the government will even fly them anywhere for medical attention on their dime.
Some people don't want to wait,but eventually everyone gets the help they need.
Funny here in Canada,noone really wants the Americam system as it is now.Unfortunately we only here about the complainers and not all the people who have been helped :icon_king:

Paul, you're welcome on "something to look at".  I was thinking about Dr. Day on my way in to work this afternoon.  She does believe in UR (or at least not ET).  She makes some very bold health statements (as well as other things).  I can't necessarily recommend her, though she actually may have something that will help your wife.  I know I would like to look at her ideas more closely this evening and see if she has ideas about what's happening now, as well as hypertension and high cholesterol (2 of my issues I'm still using big pharma for).  I don't know a lot of her specific recommendations (or if she's a "cracked vessel"  :bigGrin:), I just know she's a believer and has some radical ideas.  Some maybe too radical, I don't know.  I'd be interested in some folks taking a really close look at her ideas and give them a fair discussion.

QuoteBecause it talks about fixing things in the current system (rather than removing it like some say) that is causing the denial of coverage I am paying for with my pocket book now.  The reason we can't get the medicine is its too new,  we are biding our time in hopes that it's newness wears off and I just got off the phone with a representative of the insurance company that may be of some help.   The grace of God IS with us as she could be dead while we wait for both the government and people against the government with no solution for me now.   I'm for a solution down the road so no one else has to go through this.

'fixing things' is too vague.  I just listened to Obama talk.  Sounds to me like he wants to drive the private insurance companies out of business by removing the government subsidy given to them now under medicare and by putting the gov't in business as their competitor.  He was extremely vague if that last option is still on the table because they are getting a lot of resistance on it.  Once the gov't is the only provider--and there is no more competition--watch out--or take a look at the VA system.

One thing that I was thinking about for you is to call your insurance company and also call the drug maker--and tell them you need help.  I'll pray for you.  Something tells me they will be responsive.

Quote from: onlytruth on August 14, 2009, 11:05:12 PM
Hi everyone...Canada's system isn't so bad as they make it out to be.I live in canada and don't know of anyone who did not receive the attention they required.
I do know of a lot of people who take advantage of the doctor's office and waste a lot of time though!
When I see all the people yelling in the town hall meetings, it seems to be the white middle class who seem to be afraid that someone below them on the"economic scale" might get the same benefits as them.Heaven forbid they end up at the same medical office as someone off the "street"
God has a plan for everyone...so does the obama medical plan!
blessings :icon_king:

Hi ot.  You may be 100% right, this is only my take on it.  Though I've not been to any of the town hall meetings, here's what I believe is (in large part, I know many have different agendas) going on.  

I think what you're observing is multi-faceted and a culmination of people being fed up.  Basically, I see people VERY tired of big government encroaching into our lives more and more.  People don't want higher taxes, they want the tax money we're already paying to be put to good use instead of so much of it sqandered;  including on lavish lifestyles of those in government.  They may want to "spread the wealth".  Then let them start by offering about 50% of their riches to the money pot/pit.

People are also tired of feeling they're ignored, not heard, that the wishes of the people really don't matter;  that what seems to matter is an ideology that's been developing/blooming for at least the past 30-40 years (longer really, much longer), that says "we know what's best for you.  We are smarter, superior, and you need to just step aside and let us do what we want".  I BELIEVE this has come to fruition under our current administration.  Our president has admitted he sought out his Marxist professors while in college, and that him and some of the elite lifelong politicians now want to put their agenda in place.

As far as healthcare specifically, I don't think "anyone" in the group finally speaking up, wouldn't want ANYONE to not have access to health care, including "people off the street".  It's so many issues (feared and real) that are around the whole proposal.  They/we are afraid (and I think with good cause - long discussion with multiple reasons and facts) that freedoms will continue to be lost, government involved more, and costs (many unecessary) continue to rise.  That what's being put out as an "option" will be set up that within a short time, most other options will become (EVEN MORE) unreasonable/unobtainable until we're all sucking on the teet of the state for survival.

There are things broken in the current system, things such as noted by Paul and Molly.  Everyone, even illegals in America, can get a certain level of health care, even if it's minimally emergency care.  Perhaps not adequate, and again, things are broken.  But many of us want reasonable, thoughful solutions that correct some specific things, not to just steam-roll over us with the ideas of the STATE.  Just one example of the long arm of the government, represented in this current assault, is as follows;  although I can't give you the article/section numbers, I will research it some more.  But I have heard this part read, including the reference #'s.  Paraphrasing;  "if you are pregnant or already have small children in the home, there will be a government representative sent to your home to advise you on parenting methods in which to raise your children".  Don't believe it?  I would doubt it too, but that, as well as 100 others are probably worth looking into further.  I plan to.  I heard a Christian radio talk show host that has access to much of the proposed legislation read that part over the air this week.

So misuse, abuse, indifference to the "common man", all coming to a head in these little town hall meetings that are being attempted to be marginalized and demonized.  But in my perhaps incorrect opinion, and what I hope as a positive, blessed outcome to be, that people are beginning to be awakened from OUR slumber, starting to say "I don't like this", and letting them know we're not numbers in their Marxist/socialist system.

My  :2c: from middle America.  Literally, as in living in the midwest; and figuratively, as in an Independent non-voter/ would-be conscientious objector unless under direct attack mixed heritage (Anglo-Cherokee-Black Dutch) American that's finally pretty aggravated.

Perhaps the government officials who do not want universal health care should stop taking the health care that our tax dollars provide them.

Molly, appreciate your prayers regaurdless.

One thing I've heard offered is that we could take an amount of money, even in some increased taxes, and provide insurance vouchers for individuals and families that would pay for them to have a plan.  I would prefer something like that as opposed to blowing up the whole system.  Provide some vouchers, set some profit/gouging limits, etc., tweak what we've got. 

That's probably only a partial solution though, as based on your situation Paul, you already pay out the nose and still don't get what your family needs  :sigh:.  But then maybe if the voucher provided the coverage, then funds would be more available to buy the meds.  Thinking out loud.

I still encourage people to keep talking about it and looking for real solutions together.  At the very least they know we're paying attention and that makes it less likely we'll be steam-rolled.  But I really believe there are more solutions "out here" amongst us than in the plushly carpeted hide-outs of the elite.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

Quote from: jabcat on August 15, 2009, 12:50:57 AM
 But I have heard this part read, including the reference #'s.  Paraphrasing;  "if you are pregnant or already have small children in the home, there will be a government representative sent to your home to advise you on parenting methods in which to raise your children".  Don't believe it?  I would doubt it too, but that, as well as 100 others are probably worth looking into further.  I plan to.  I heard a Christian radio talk show host that has access to much of the proposed legislation read that part over the air this week.

What was the context for their comments, was they implying that it would be that way for anyone, or just those participating in the governmental system?

To some it may matter, however when I hear many people going on about this they paint the picture that everyone will be subject to this and the document says nothing of the kind that I can tell.  It focuses upon those eligible for the goverment assistance.

My problem is that whenever people paint a questionable picture then their own trustworthyness comes into question.   Perhaps any government representative is a bad idea, however if people exploit the current fears for their own gain by misrepresentation then they are nothing more than liars and what they say cannot be trusted.


My Dad gets "represenatives" to visit his home and they are regular medical professionals that give advise and have not encountered anyone scoping out the house on a witch hunt yet.

"yet" you say  :laughing7:.  Kidding.

I'm not sure the context, or the actuality.  I plan to look into it further and mention it to raise awareness and encourage folks to see if they can see for themselves.  I think it's a good thing to dig into it and see what's there.  Facts are good if we can get them.  Do you know how to directly access the documents?  Or maybe they're not available for the general public to see yet  :dontknow:.

I too would suspect that particular thing would apply to those directly involved in the system - at least at first.  But for many, including myself, it's the resistance to continued government intrusion that's a concern.  To me, a helping hand here and there is one thing, and can be appreciated.  But I personally don't want things developing into "I can't take a step unless you hold my hand, or I'm not allowed to take a step unless I raise my hand and ask for permission".  So IMO, not all wish to be involved in that system, and many are afraid that will eventually become the only option, i.e., that or none - "our way or the hiway".

I saw a quote from Abraham Lincoln;  "the people will save their government, if the government itself will allow them".  That's where I say though that I personally am between sorting through some things here.  I think of God telling Israel if they would repent, turn from their wicked ways, call on Him, He would heal their land.  Maybe that's more than anything what we're missing.  :dontknow:

Things can for sure sound more ominous than is reality.  Imminently, even in this situation, that could be the case as well.  My concern is what might it lead to?  Because conversely, sometimes things are much more ominous than they initially sound or than we're led to believe.

I did in-home direct counseling with foster children for years - private practice, but contracted with and paid by the state.  Not much interference from them really, and I wasn't there to give them a state "party line".  So what more would those reportedly going to the home do than that?  I don't know.

I tried to find some info online, so far don't see any direct downloads or scans of any proposed health care bills available for public viewing...will keep looking.

QuoteWhat was the context for their comments, was they implying that it would be that way for anyone, or just those participating in the governmental system?

Everyone is going to be participating in the government system.  You don't get that?  There's going to be an exchange, and everyone will be required to have health insurance, and everyone will have a national health ID (they are going to get their national ID one way or another), and there are going to be dozens of committees deciding everything from what the insurance companies can do to what the hospitals can do.  Obama said today--he wants to micromanage health care, including the number of tests and mri's you get.

And please don't talk about people 'reading' this bill.  The bill keeps changing and they are going to ram it through before anyone can read the final bill including those voting on it--guaranteed--because that is what they have done every time before.

I want the government out of my life.  As Thomas Jefferson said, a government that can give you everything you need will take everything you have.

QuoteMy concern is what might it lead to? 

well, think to yourself, what country has tons of government committees micromanaging your life, and czars, and runs private businesses while simultaneously spying on you, and I think you'll have your answer as to what all of this is leading to--this is just one more piece of the puzzle.

I don't disagree at all.  I was just trying to be "gentle" and s/w open-minded to possibilities...but I really believe what the agenda is...it's either just a matter of time (Globalist agenda) or God intervenes by waking people up (or shaping people up  :bigGrin:).  I hope the latter 2 is what's happening, you know, hoping for the positive outcome before things get much worse.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2009, 05:10:02 AM

QuoteMy concern is what might it lead to? 

well, think to yourself, what country has tons of government committees micromanaging your life, and czars, and runs private businesses while simultaneously spying on you, and I think you'll have your answer as to what all of this is leading to--this is just one more piece of the puzzle.

Great, another solution.

Quote from: Molly on August 15, 2009, 04:57:15 AM

QuoteWhat was the context for their comments, was they implying that it would be that way for anyone, or just those participating in the governmental system?

Everyone is going to be participating in the government system.  You don't get that?  There's going to be an exchange, and everyone will be required to have health insurance, and everyone will have a national health ID (they are going to get their national ID one way or another), and there are going to be dozens of committees deciding everything from what the insurance companies can do to what the hospitals can do.  Obama said today--he wants to micromanage health care, including the number of tests and mri's you get.

And please don't talk about people 'reading' this bill.  The bill keeps changing and they are going to ram it through before anyone can read the final bill including those voting on it--guaranteed--because that is what they have done every time before.

I want the government out of my life.  As Thomas Jefferson said, a government that can give you everything you need will take everything you have.

I got some good honest responces out of you today so I appreciate the honesty that you have no real solution to my wifes problem, but hey, get in line.

Have any of you checked out this web site:  It's a rebuttal to the right-wing fear-mongering about the Health Insurance Bills

http://www.pleasecutthecrap.com

wow, that's an exhaustive site.  I'll look at it some more.  Having access to some of the actual document is nice, thanks for posting it.  I personally think both extremes misrepresent things at times - what you label as "right wing fear mongering", but also on the other end, what I would label as Marxist elite.   Some of my personal concerns is what kinds of "Pandora's Boxes" might we open up.  And unfortunately, on a personal (lazy) level, that sure is a lot of reading  :heat:.  Again though, going to look at it some more - good to have.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't use the label right-wing fear monger.  Politics kills (especially these days).   

I am shocked by some of the stuff coming from the right, however. 

Hey, there's worse names than the two we used! It's hard to know what to call it all.  Hopefully, the best thing to call it is God waking us up and beginning to fix it/us.   :thumbsup:

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), occasionally called the United Soviet Socialist Republic,[1] was a constitutionally socialist state that existed in Eurasia from 1922 to 1991.


On the surface, the constitutions resembled many constitutions adopted in the West. The differences between Soviet and Western constitutions, however, overshadow the similarities. Soviet constitutions declared certain political rights, such as freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion. They also identified a series of economic and social rights, as well as a set of duties of all citizens. Nevertheless, Soviet constitutions did not contain provisions guaranteeing the inalienable rights of the citizenry, and they lacked laws to protect these rights. Thus, the population enjoyed political rights only to the extent that these rights did not conflict with the goal of building communism. The Communist Party of the Soviet Union alone reserved the authority to determine what lay in the interests of Communism.



Communism (from Latin: communis = "common") is a family of economic and political ideas and social movements related to the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, or stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general, as well as the name given to such a society.[1][2][3] The term "Communism", usually spelled with the capital letter C, is also often used to refer to a form of government in which the state operates under a one-party system and declares allegiance to Marxism-Leninism or a derivative thereof, even if the party does not actually claim that the society has already reached communism.



During the Russian Civil War (1918–1922), the Bolsheviks nationalized all productive property and imposed a policy of war communism, which put factories and railroads under strict government control, collected and rationed food, and introduced some bourgeois management of industry. After three years of war and the 1921 Kronstadt rebellion, Lenin declared the New Economic Policy (NEP) in 1921, which was to give a "limited place for a limited time to capitalism." The NEP lasted until 1928, when Joseph Stalin achieved party leadership, and the introduction of the first Five Year Plan spelled the end of it. Following the Russian Civil War, the Bolsheviks formed in 1922 the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), or Soviet Union, from the former Russian Empire.

Following Lenin's democratic centralism, the Communist parties were organized on a hierarchical basis, with active cells of members as the broad base; they were made up only of elite cadres approved by higher members of the party as being reliable and completely subject to party discipline.[19

Stalinism is a term that refers to the political system of the Soviet Union under the leadership of Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union from 1928–1953.[citation needed] The term implies an inherently oppressive system of extensive government spying, extrajudicial punishment, and political "purging", or elimination of political opponents either by direct killing or through exile, and it involves a state making extensive use of propaganda to establish a personality cult around an absolute dictator to maintain control over the nation's people and to maintain political control for the Communist Party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism


Stalin murdered 60 to 100 million Russians during his tenure, many of them Christians.  But, that is not a 'holocaust' anyone seems to want to remember.

Quote
Stalin murdered 60 to 100 million Russians during his tenure, many of them Christians.  But, that is not a 'holocaust' anyone seems to want to remember.

Molly,

God allowed it.  We are all sentenced to death according to the scriptures.  Do any of us expect to escape death in this world? 

"Even angry mortals will praise you. You will wear the remainder of their anger." Psalm 76:10 

"...the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; " 1 Corinthians 2:8

It Is Appointed Unto Men Once to Die


Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

2 Samuel 14:14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.

Job 30:23 For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

Psalms 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psalms 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Ecclesiastes 7:2 It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The 5000 Year Leap--A Miracle that Changed the World



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrwJMMsF110


Principle 1 - The only reliable basis for sound government and just human relations is Natural Law.

Natural law is God's law. There are certain laws which govern the entire universe, and just as Thomas Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence, there are laws which govern in the affairs of men which are "the laws of nature and of nature's God."

Principle 2 - A free people cannot survive under a republican constitution unless they remain virtuous and morally strong.

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." - Benjamin Franklin

Principle 3 - The most promising method of securing a virtuous people is to elect virtuous leaders.

"Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt. He therefore is the truest friend to the liberty of his country who tries most to promote its virtue, and who ... will not suffer a man to be chosen into any office of power and trust who is not a wise and virtuous man." - Samuel Adams

Principle 4 - Without religion the government of a free people cannot be maintained.

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.... And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion." - George Washington

Principle 5 - All things were created by God, therefore upon him all mankind are equally dependent, and to him they are equally responsible .

The American Founding Fathers considered the existence of the Creator as the most fundamental premise underlying all self-evident truth. They felt a person who boasted he or she was an atheist had just simply failed to apply his or her divine capacity for reason and observation.

Principle 6 - All mankind were created equal.

The Founders knew that in these three ways, all mankind are theoretically treated as:

1.      Equal before God.

2.      Equal before the law.

3.      Equal in their rights.

Principle 7 - The proper role of government is to protect equal rights, not provide equal things.

The Founders recognized that the people cannot delegate to their government any power except that which they have the lawful right to exercise themselves.

Principle 8 - Mankind are endowed by God with certain unalienable rights.

"Those rights, then, which God and nature have established, and are therefore called natural rights, such as are life and liberty, need not the aid of human laws to be more effectually invested in every man than they are; neither do they receive any additional strength when declared by the municipal [or state] laws to be inviolable. On the contrary, no human legislation has power to abridge or destroy them, unless the owner [of the right] shall himself commit some act that amounts to a forfeiture." - William Blackstone

Principle 9 - To protect human rights, God has revealed a code of divine law.

"The doctrines thus delivered we call the revealed or divine law, and they are to be found only in the Holy Scriptures. These precepts, when revealed, are found by comparison to be really a part of the original law of nature, as they tend in all their consequences to man's felicity." - William Blackstone

Principle 10 - The God-given right to govern is vested in the sovereign authority of the whole people.

"The fabric of American empire ought to rest on the solid basis of the consent of the people. The streams of national power ought to flow immediately from that pure, original fountain of all legislative authority." - Alexander Hamilton

Principle 11 - The majority of the people may alter or abolish a government which has become tyrannical.

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes ... but when a long train of abuses and usurpations ... evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." - Thomas Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence

Principle 12 - The United States of Americashall be a republic.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
And to the republic for which it stands...."

Principle 13 - A Constitution should protect the people from the frailties of their rulers.

"If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.... [But lacking these] you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself." - James Madison

Principle 14 - Life and liberty are secure only so long as the rights of property are secure .

John Locke reasoned that God gave the earth and everything in it to the whole human family as a gift. Therefore the land, the sea, the acorns in the forest, the deer feeding in the meadow belong to everyone "in common." However, the moment someone takes the trouble to change something from its original state of nature, that person has added his ingenuity or labor to make that change. Herein lies the secret to the origin of "property rights."

Principle 15 - The highest level of prosperity occurs when there is a free-market economy and a minimum of government regulations.

Prosperity depends upon a climate of wholesome stimulation with four basic freedoms in operation:

1.      The Freedom to try.

2.      The Freedom to buy.

3.      The Freedom to sell.

4.      The Freedom to fail.

Principle 16 - The government should be separated into three branches .

"I call you to witness that I was the first member of the Congress who ventured to come out in public, as I did in January 1776, in my Thoughts on Government ... in favor of a government with three branches and an independent judiciary. This pamphlet, you know, was very unpopular. No man appeared in public to support it but yourself." - John Adams

Principle 17 - A system of checks and balances should be adopted to prevent the abuse of power by the different branches of government.

"It will not be denied that power is of an encroaching nature and that it ought to be effectually restrained from passing the limits assigned to it." - James Madison

Principle 18 - The unalienable rights of the people are most likely to be preserved if the principles of government are set forth in a written Constitution.

The structure of the American system is set forth in the Constitution of the United States and the only weaknesses which have appeared are those which were allowed to creep in despite the Constitution.

Principle 19 - Only limited and carefully defined powers should be delegated to government, all others being retained by the people.

The Tenth Amendment is the most widely violated provision of the bill of rights. If it had been respected and enforced America would be an amazingly different country than it is today. This amendment provides:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Principle 20 - Efficiency and dispatch require that the government operate according to the will of the majority, but constitutional provisions must be made to protect the rights of the minority.

"Every man, by consenting with others to make one body politic under one government, puts himself under an obligation to every one of that society to submit to the determination of the majority, and to be concluded [bound] by it." - John Locke

Principle 21 - Strong local self-government is the keystone to preserving human freedom.

"The way to have good and safe government is not to trust it all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one exactly the functions he is competent [to perform best]. - Thomas Jefferson

Principle 22 - A free people should be governed by law and not by the whims of men.

"The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom. For in all the states of created beings, capable of laws, where there is no law there is no freedom. For liberty is to be free from restraint and violence of others, which cannot be where there is no law." - John Locke

Principle 23 - A free society cannot survive as a republic without a broad program of general education.

"They made an early provision by law that every town consisting of so many families should be always furnished with a grammar school. They made it a crime for such a town to be destitute of a grammar schoolmaster for a few months, and subjected it to a heavy penalty. So that the education of all ranks of people was made the care and expense of the public, in a manner that I believe has been unknown to any other people, ancient or modern. The consequences of these establishments we see and feel every day [written in 1765]. A native of America who cannot read and write is as rare ... as a comet or an earthquake." John Adams

Principle 24 - A free people will not survive unless they stay strong.

"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace." - George Washington

Principle 25 - "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations -- entangling alliances with none."- Thomas Jefferson, given in his first inaugural address.

Principle 26 - The core unit which determines the strength of any society is the family; therefore the government should foster and protect its integrity.

"There is certainly no country in the world where the tie of marriage is more respected than in America , or where conjugal happiness is more highly or worthily appreciated." Alexis de Tocqueville

Principle 27 - The burden of debt is as destructive to human freedom as subjugation by conquest.

"We are bound to defray expenses [of the war] within our own time, and are unauthorized to burden posterity with them.... We shall all consider ourselves morally bound to pay them ourselves and consequently within the life [expectancy] of the majority." - Thomas Jefferson

Principle 28 - The United Stateshas a manifest destiny to eventually become a glorious example of God's law under a restored Constitution that will inspire the entire human race.

The Founders sensed from the very beginning that they were on a divine mission. Their great disappointment was that it didn't all come to pass in their day, but they knew that someday it would. John Adams wrote:

"I always consider the settlement of America with reverence and wonder, as the opening of a grand scene and design in Providence for the illumination of the ignorant, and the emancipation of the slavish part of mankind all over the earth."



http://www.learntheconstitution.com/five-thousand-year-leap.html

QuoteMolly,

God allowed it.  We are all sentenced to death according to the scriptures.  Do any of us expect to escape death in this world? 

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
--George Orwell, 1984

This is a truism of satan's history.  That is why history is bunk, lies written by the victor.  And, that is why those who don't know true history are destined to repeat it.  This is how satan deceives the world


But our God is the God of the past, present, and future.


8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

--Rev 1

And, our God requires us to worship him in truth.   Only by facing the truth could we ever repent.  The truth of earthly things repels most, so they recoil from it and accept the lie.  This allows satan to continue to deceive.  But, those who have the courage to know it, will be set free.




Isaiah 38:19
The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Dear Paul H--

Have you figured out the most salient issue about the new health care bill yet?  While we are being harrassed by Obama and others to hurry up and pass this because 14000 people a day are losing their health care---this health bill, even if passed tomorrow, will not go into effect until 2013.   So what's the hurry to ram a 1000 page bill down our throats which will give the government intimate power over our medical records, our health, our doctors,  and our very lives? Whatever their reason the bottom line is--  We have all the time in the world to figure out what we want to do---at least 4 years.

Tell them to go pound sand on their huge new bureaucracy and national health ID and health rationing  , and to take some of that money they are gifting to wall street , and give it to our citizens who are in crisis right now.


Ann Coulter says, do away with the regulations and let us buy insurance across state lines.


Medicare Took a Year to Implement; Obama Proposal to Take Nearly 10
If overhaul passes, uninsured would not be covered until 2013

Published: Monday, July 20, 2009 at 6:26 p.m.
Last Modified: Monday, July 20, 2009 at 6:26 p.m.

WASHINGTON | President Lyndon Johnson signed the Medicare law on July 30, 1965, and 11 months later seniors were receiving coverage. But if President Barack Obama gets to sign a health care overhaul this fall, the uninsured won't be covered until 2013 - after the next presidential election.

In fact, a time line of the 1,000-page health care bill crafted by House Democrats shows it would take the better part of a decade - from 2010-2018 - to get all the components of the far-reaching proposal up and running. The moving parts include a national insurance marketplace overseen by a brand new federal bureaucracy - the Health Choices Administration.

Medicare was big. This could be bigger. If a bill passes, Americans probably will be discovering - and debating - its effects for years.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090720/news/907205038

My comments were never about my support for that being a short term solution for my wife.

In the meantime I am looking for a second job to earn some extra money in order to do what I can to get things my wife needs.

You do what you gotta do.   

Ok, then, another idea is to ask your doc if he has samples he can give you.  I know people who have done that, too.

I'm just sayin' --these people are lying to us.  I saw obama tell a huge crowd in Montana that we need to pass this bill quickly (this year) because 14,000 people a day are losing their insurance.  Well those people will have to wait at least 4 years, until 2013,  for relief from his bill and he didn't tell them that.  That's lying by omission.  Just like the last administration got another bill passed that shredded our constitution, and they needed it in a hurry, too, and it, too, wasn't read by Congress before it was passed because they were presented with it at 3am on the day it was passed.

There's a lot of hurry, hurry, hurry going on with these people---they just had to pass tarp in a week or the whole economy was going to melt down (blackmailers and terrorists) and guess what, since it passed the economy has melted down but certain individuals and banks have gotten rich on the backs of the american people and wall street has taken over our government.

I say a pox on their czars and big government.  Those white haired people at the town halls have gotten it exactly right.  There's an agenda going on here from both parties to change the very nature of our government.  Those supporting it are offshore, and globalists,  but we are the ones who will have to live with it.

If I could the first change I would make in the government is term limits for all politicians.

 :cloud9: Forgive me if this is slightly off topic, but it seemed sorta appropriate given everyone's concern over things happening. Someone sent me this in an email; can't vouch for it, but it was an eye opener. Blessings.....


*HR 1388 Passed*...
Whether you are an Obama fan, or not, EVERYONE IN THE U. S. needs to
know this....

Something happened... H.R. 1388 was passed yesterday, behind our backs.
You may want to read about it. It wasn't mentioned on the news... just went
by on the ticker tape at the bottom of the CNN screen.

Obama funds $20M in tax payer dollars to immigrate Hamas Refugees to the
USA. This is the news that didn't make the headlines...

By executive order, President Barack Obama has ordered the expenditure of
$20.3 million in "migration assistance" to the Palestinian refugees and
"conflict victims" in Gaza.

The "presidential determination, The "presidential determination, <WBR>"
which allows hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with ties to Hamas to
resettle in the United States, was signed on January 27 and appear

Few on Capitol Hill, or in the media, took note that the order provides a
free ticket replete with housing and food allowances to individuals who
have displayed their overwhelming support to the Islamic Resistance Movement
(Hamas) in the parliamentary election of January 2006.

Let's review...itemized list of some of Barack Obama's most recent actions
since his inauguration:

His first call to any head of state, as president, was to Mahmoud Abbas,
leader of Fatah party in the Palestinian territory.

His first one-on-one television interview with any news organization was
with Al Arabia television.

His first executive order was to fund/facilitate abortion(s) not just here
within the U. S., but within the world, using U. S. tax payer funds..

He ordered Guantanamo Bay closed and all military trials of detainees
halted.

He ordered overseas CIA interrogation centers closed.

He withdrew all charges against the masterminds behind the USS Cole and
the "terror attack" on 9/11.

Now we learn that he is allowing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian
refugees to move to, and live in, the US at American taxpayer expense.

These important, and insightful, issues are being "lost" in the blinding
bail-outs and "stimulation" packages.

Doubtful? To verify this for yourself:
*www.thefederalregi *www.thef* www.thef* www.thef* www.
<_http://www.thefeder http://www. http://www. thhttp:// wwhttp_
(http://www.thefeder alregister. com/d.p/2009- 02-04-E9- 2488) ><_http://www.th/ _
(http://www.th/)
efederalregister. efederalregisefe deralrefedera>

PLEASE PASS THIS ON... ALL AMERICANS NEEDS TO KNOW

WE are losing this country at a rapid pace.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/palestinians.asp

.
Read the link below and see what H 1388 really is. Snopes is an orgination that searches out whether something is an urban "ledgen"
or rumour.



http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/palestinians.asp

Below is the  H 1388

H.R.1388 - The Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act
A bill entitled "The Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act, an Act to reauthorize and reform the national service laws." view all titles (14)

Well, I "think" this bill used to stand for "GIVE" ...........
you can check it out and read the whole text here:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h1388/sho

Every time something was done from this bill is shown on this site.

Interesting.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 16, 2009, 10:56:48 PM


If I could the first change I would make in the government is term limits for all politicians.

Boy, do I second that one.  IMO, that's a HUGE part of MANY problems...they've forgotten they are the people's representatives and servants, and some think instead they are our bosses (if not dictators).  Two terms and adios.

On a technical note...would they have to vote that into law themselves, or would that be by referendum  :dontknow:?

Quote from: Cardinal on August 17, 2009, 09:48:49 AM


*HR 1388 Passed*...
Whether you are an Obama fan, or not, EVERYONE IN THE U. S. needs to
know this....

Something happened... H.R. 1388 was passed yesterday, behind our backs.
PLEASE PASS THIS ON... ALL AMERICANS NEEDS TO KNOW

WE are losing this country at a rapid pace.

I have no idea if this particular email is true or not.  [EDIT:  Ah, I see Snopes says MOSTLY false.  Mostly seems to leave some room for some possibilities.  I don't mean to be a real paranoid here, but then how reliable is Snopes?  :sigh:  I don't know.  From what I read, they're just a husband and wife team that investigates things.  Don't know what their particular biases are.  I personally believe most of us have SOME biases that affect our perception.  ] 

Anyway, I get some stuff that is pretty questionable, and some of it I check out, and it seems to be false.  This one may be true, but even if not, the increasing # of czars and so called "shadow government", IMO, is a real concern.  Another way to bypass the light of day and do things in the dark, as this says, "behind our back".

One thing to be aware of (we'll hear of it eventually I guess if it does happen) is, watch for some of the proposals (even ones being "backed off of" publically) to be slipped in the back door...supposedly while no one's watching.  The thing is, either way it goes, God's not only watching, but He's using all this stuff for His purposes.  In the process right now perhaps of getting our attention and turning us toward Him.

Jab,
remember who you are.
not under the law.
under grace.
Don't get involved.

I hear you.  I'm going through a process of sorting that, seeing if there's any room for "Godly involvement" (for lack of a better term?), even perhaps His will in some areas vs. totally ignoring it all.  In an earlier post I said I'm sorting through that.  I know some believe in being knee-deep in it from a "Godly perspective", while others (apparently including one of the elders I really respect, J.Preston) seem to say eyes totally somewhere else...on the heavenlies.  A little searching right now, friend.  Thanks for the reminder  :thumbsup:.  I'm not oblivious, but searching it out.  God's speaking to me, I just need to make sure I'm hearing His voice.  Sometimes I imagine things   :laughhand:.  Gots'ta be careful  :bigGrin:.

Thanks again for the reminder, pray for me.

Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2009, 07:51:23 AM
I hear you.  I'm going through a process of sorting that, seeing if there's any room for "Godly involvement" (for lack of a better term?), even perhaps His will in some areas vs. totally ignoring it all.  In an earlier post I said I'm sorting through that.  I know some believe in being knee-deep in it from a "Godly perspective", while others (apparently including one of the elders I really respect, J.Preston) seem to say eyes totally somewhere else...on the heavenlies.  A little searching right now, friend.  Thanks for the reminder  :thumbsup:.  I'm not oblivious, but searching it out.  God's speaking to me, I just need to make sure I'm hearing His voice.  Sometimes I imagine things  :bigGrin:.

I've done the former, now I'm starting to lean more back into this...
I'm with ya, jab...
just trying to sort it all out.
peace bro.

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
   let me hide myself in thee;
   let the water and the blood,
   from thy wounded side which flowed,
   be of sin the double cure;
   save from wrath and make me pure.

--Augustus M. Toplady, 1740-1778

Confide ye in Jehovah for ever; for in Jah, Jehovah, is the rock of ages.
--Isa 26:4 [Darby translation]


The lyrics to this song were written over 200 years ago, yet it was just the other day that I discovered the Biblical reference in the Hebrew.  It is not in the King James version we have online.  If it weren't for this old song, I would  never have heard of the rock of ages.

We are living in a dark ages of Christianity.  The thief has climbed over the fence and taken charge of the flock. If satan could have three wishes, what would they be?  That the followers of Jesus worship satan, eat dirt, and throw themselves off a high building?  Satan, of course, would prefer us dead or neutralized if we will not worship him, even if by mistake.

As, Reformer says, get a magnifying glass, because if Christians don't know what is in the Bible, satan will be happy to tell them.  In particular, the strange brand of aggressive/passive philosophy that passes for Christianity today is a brilliant emasculator of the flock.  Either they are fighting wars overseas or being passive at home, waiting for the rapture.

Even a cursory reading of the Bible would show that neither was intended by Christ.  Christianity is a pro-active religion, bringing the principles of Christ to all areas of life and society.    Those saying the Bible tells us to follow and obey our leaders forget that our founders, who thought they were creating the kingdom of God on earth, made us our own leaders.  The king is dead, long live the sovereign people.  We have only one King, and it is him we should serve.  He can only work through us in the world if we allow it. And, that requires a lot of courage and maturity.  But, we need never be afraid because when things get too tough out there,  we always have this hiding place, a huge boulder like the rock of Gibraltar with a cleft in it for us, where we can find refreshment and rest for another day of battle.



14My dove, in the clefts of the rock, In the covert of the precipice, Let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; For sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

--Song of Solomon 2


"cleft"


H2288
חגו
chăgâv
khag-awv'
From an unused root meaning to take refuge; a rift in rocks: - cleft.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 16, 2009, 10:56:48 PM


If I could the first change I would make in the government is term limits for all politicians.

Me too.  I think the Almighty is going to limit all our terms in a jiffy, quite frankly. 
Washington and the tentacles of governmental corruption covering the entire globe are a quagmire of quicksand.
I think that is why God allowed the invention of the dreaded A and H bombs.

from 2Peter - Chapter 3 ...
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hastening to the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?  Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.  For this reason, my loved ones, as you are looking for these things, take great care that when he comes you may be in peace before him, free from sin and every evil thing.

Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2009, 07:35:40 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 16, 2009, 10:56:48 PM


If I could the first change I would make in the government is term limits for all politicians.

Boy, do I second that one.  IMO, that's a HUGE part of MANY problems...they've forgotten they are the people's representatives and servants, and some think instead they are our bosses (if not dictators).  Two terms and adios.

On a technical note...would they have to vote that into law themselves, or would that be by referendum  :dontknow:?

:cloud9: If they keep ahead, it may by 'mob rule', LOL........Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on August 18, 2009, 05:00:41 PM

Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2009, 07:35:40 AM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on August 16, 2009, 10:56:48 PM


If I could the first change I would make in the government is term limits for all politicians.

Boy, do I second that one.  IMO, that's a HUGE part of MANY problems...they've forgotten they are the people's representatives and servants, and some think instead they are our bosses (if not dictators).  Two terms and adios.

On a technical note...would they have to vote that into law themselves, or would that be by referendum  :dontknow:?

:cloud9: If they keep ahead, it may by 'mob rule', LOL........Blessings....

Term limits will not work because then you will have a lameduck representative who will have no reason not to run amuck in his last term.  Think term limits in your head, though.  There is no reason for career politicians.

The solution is an educated and involved population who knows who they are voting for, not just voting on name recognition.  Know how your representative voted on various bills, and if you don't approve elect someone else.  Better yet, run for office yourself.  Get involved, talk to his office, send him letters, let him know you are there and you are watching him.

Our constitution originally called for senators to be appointed by both parties from the state congress.  I like this because anyone both parties could agree on would tend to be more of a statesman than a politician.  We should return to this method of picking senators.  That way, carpetbaggers couldn't move to a state with a ton of money and buy themselves a seat from the voting public who value name recognition above anything else.

Oh, and PS:  Count the votes by hand using paper ballots.

Freedom is not for the lazy and uninvolved.

Quote from: jabcat on August 18, 2009, 07:51:23 AM
I hear you.  I'm going through a process of sorting that, seeing if there's any room for "Godly involvement" (for lack of a better term?), even perhaps His will in some areas vs. totally ignoring it all.  In an earlier post I said I'm sorting through that.  I know some believe in being knee-deep in it from a "Godly perspective", while others (apparently including one of the elders I really respect, J.Preston) seem to say eyes totally somewhere else...on the heavenlies.  A little searching right now, friend.  Thanks for the reminder  :thumbsup:.  I'm not oblivious, but searching it out.  God's speaking to me, I just need to make sure I'm hearing His voice.  Sometimes I imagine things   :laughhand:.  Gots'ta be careful  :bigGrin:.

Thanks again for the reminder, pray for me.

My perspective is that we at least need to be aware of what's going on, then we can listen for God's voice as to how and if we need to be involved in each particular area. The key I think is to do only what we see the Father doing and not act on our own initiative.

I think the biggest mistake we can make is assume, like the Jews of Jesus' day did, that our messiah is coming (or has come) to set up an earthly political kingdom and destroy or remove all our physical enemies. Folks who look for that messiah are not going to recognize him, and miss him today, just like the religious did back then.

[/quote]
Doc said:
My perspective is that we at least need to be aware of what's going on, then we can listen for God's voice as to how and if we need to be involved in each particular area. The key I think is to do only what we see the Father doing and not act on our own initiative.

I think the biggest mistake we can make is assume, like the Jews of Jesus' day did, that our messiah is coming (or has come) to set up an earthly political kingdom and destroy or remove all our physical enemies. Folks who look for that messiah are not going to recognize him, and miss him today, just like the religious did back then.
[/quote]

RLV, I think its something how people show themselves thru topics like
this.  I have NEVER been interested in politics one bit and I notice a
change in "Anne" since I used to hush her up behind the scenes, and
NOW, "I'm" doing it.  ha

The only reason I watch it so tho is because I heard the  Spirit speak
that not only was He going to "shake" the religious world......but
the policital too......I knew it was God, so I started watching t. v.
back when the campaign started. 

I still don't know nothing about politics, there are too many tales told
opposite one another, so it would still take "God" Himself to sort all
this out, but this I know:  The PURPOSE of the Shaking .......is told
in Hebrews:  It is: "So that........that which cannot be shaken will
remain."

God cannot be shaken. 

The Kingdom of God.

So we can serve Him without fear.............Glory!

  wise words  Dear REDLETTERVOICE   :HeartThrob:

Gods plan in power is still in full force  ,
  we trust in Him for every need  and everyone  :icon_flower:

Funny thing is, I don't disagree with anyone voicing their varying opinions on this thread.  There are just so many different pieces...maybe God uses one person one way, and another a different way.  Maybe one's place is to pray and live a peaceable, "uninvolved" life, and their life will witness and work in exactly the places God intends.  Maybe another is led to be more "involved", speaking up, standing up, and that witnesses and works in exactly the places God intends.

Again, I'm sort of sorting through this myself.  I do believe (whatever this means EXACTLY right now, I'm not sure) that our spirit is living in a heavenly kingdom - but our feet are still on the ground.

jabcat... again, we are seeing this in similar ways. Those are all the things I think about too.
Well, just wanted you to know you're not alone.
Still pondering along with ya.

Jabcat — always the voice of reason!
For each in his own order.

Thanks Sparrow and BServ.  I needed a little encouragement tonight.  Your kind words really meant something to me.    Wishing special blessings to you both.  James.

CALL YOUR CONGRESSMEN.  TELL THEM TO GIVE THE FARMERS OF SAN JOAQUIN VALLEY BACK THEIR WATER.

THE EPA IS ENGINEERING THE DUST BOWLS OF 1931.  THIS IS UNCONSCIONABLE.  This is what the communists did to the Russian farmers in the 30's.


AUGUST 14, 2009, 11:26 P.M. ET
It's Fish Versus Farmers in the San Joaquin Valley
Crops rot and people stand in line for food while the EPA engineers a drought.
By DEVIN NUNES
San Joaquin Valley, Calif.

In 1931, a severe drought began that within a few years engulfed the Oklahoma panhandle and a third of the Great Plains in a "Dust Bowl." Tens of thousands of people fled the region—many traveling to California along Route 66, which John Steinbeck called "the mother road, the road of flight" in "The Grapes of Wrath."

A lot of the "Okies" settled in the San Joaquin Valley. In the decades that followed, state and federal officials built dams and other irrigation projects that helped turn the valley into some of the world's richest farmland.

But today the San Joaquin Valley is being transformed into a dust bowl. Hundreds of thousands of acres are fallow, while almond and plum trees are being left to die in the scorching sun. Tens of thousands of people have been tossed out of work—the town of Mendota alone has an unemployment rate of about 40%—and the lines for food donations stretch down streets. The reason? There isn't enough water to go around this year, and the Obama administration is drawing up new reasons to divert more of it from farms and people and into the San Francisco Bay.

The valley has traditionally been a place where someone with few belongings, little education and even no ability to speak English could prosper by picking grapes, milking cows, or hoeing cotton fields. The hearty people who came here were Portuguese, Mexican, Armenian, Italian, Basque and Dutch, along with westward-traveling Americans and Okies. More recent arrivals are from El Salvador, Vietnam and India. I am the product of a Portuguese family that came decades ago.

California has the largest water storage and transportation system in the world. With 1,200 miles of canals and nearly 50 reservoirs, the system captures enough water to irrigate about four million acres and provide water to 23 million people. In many cases, as with the San Joaquin Valley, water in this system is sold to communities by the federal government.

Some claim that California is facing a three-year-old drought. But, according to the state's Department of Water Resources, California reservoirs have received 80% of their normal amount of water and precipitation in the northern Sierras has been 95% of its yearly average this year. So why isn't there more water for farms? Because theirs is a regulatory-mandated drought. The 1973 Endangered Species Act requires that the government take steps to save endangered species. In California, that's meant diverting vast sums of water into rivers and streams to protect fish. Those diversions this year have forced federal authorities to decide who to serve—fish or farmers.

On Dec. 15, 2008, the Bush administration's Fish and Wildlife Service chose fish, a decision driven by a lawsuit filed in federal court in 2006 by the Natural Resources Defense Council and other environmental groups. To settle the suit, the Fish and Wildlife Service agreed to divert more than 150 billion gallons of water this year away from farmers south of San Francisco in hopes of protecting the Delta smelt—a three-inch bait fish. The water is now flowing underneath the Golden Gate Bridge and out into the Pacific Ocean.

Of course, the Delta smelt isn't a particularly attractive species to protect when it means throwing Americans out of work. On June 4, the National Marine Fisheries Service declared that delivering water to farms in the San Joaquin Valley would harm killer whales in the Pacific. And to save the whales, the Obama administration is now demanding even greater water restrictions beyond what has been diverted for the smelt.

There are 130 animal species in California on the federal endangered list, including five salmon species, five steelhead species, four trout species and the North American green sturgeon. To date, not a single fish within the California water system has been removed from the Endangered Species List over the past 35 years. Despite massive amounts of water diverted to help them, the "protected" smelt, sturgeon and salmon populations have continued to decline. It is hardly unreasonable to ask why farmers should continue to suffer if diverting water hasn't even helped the fish.

Congress has the power to solve this crisis. In 2003, a fish-versus-families debate erupted in New Mexico after water deliveries to Albuquerque from the Rio Grande River were cut off to protect habitat for the silvery minnow—another three-inch bait fish. Congress temporarily suspended portions of the Endangered Species Act and guaranteed that water would be provided to Albuquerque. The situation in California is virtually identical and repeating what was done in New Mexico would do wonders for San Joaquin Valley farmers.

It would also accomplish more than what the administration currently has in mind. Next month Interior Secretary Ken Salazar is planning to hold a hearing on the situation in California, following up on a visit he made to the valley in June.

A spokesman for the Interior Department recently declared that San Joaquin Valley's water problems are a top priority for the Obama administration and that the river that flows through the valley and eventually to the ocean to form the San Joaquin Delta is as precious a natural resource as Florida's Everglades. What is precious and what President Barack Obama should come to see for himself are the 40,000 people in the valley who are desperate for water so they can get back to work.

If it doesn't start flowing any time soon, perhaps he can tell them where they should go. Back to Oklahoma?

Mr. Nunes is a Republican congressman representing California's 21st district.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204619004574318621482123090.html

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор; translation: death by starvation) refers to the famine of 1932–1933 in the Ukrainian SSR during which millions of people were starved to death because of the Soviet policies. There were no natural causes for starvation and in fact, Ukraine - unlike other Soviet Republics - enjoyed a bumper wheat crop in 1932.[1][2] The Holodomor is considered one of the greatest calamities to affect the Ukrainian nation in modern history. Millions of inhabitants of Ukraine died of starvation in an unprecedented peacetime catastrophe.[1][3][4][5]

--Wikipedia

1928
Stalin introduces a program of agricultural collectivization that forces peasants/farmers to combine their land and livestock into collective farms. Stalin decides that collective farms would not only feed the industrial workers in the cities but would also provide a substantial amount of grain to be sold abroad, with the money used to finance his industrialization plans.

1929
A policy of enforcement is applied, using regular troops and secret police to confiscate lands and livestock. Many Ukrainian peasants/farmers, known for their independence, still refuse to join the collective farms. Stalin decides to "liquidate them as a class".

1930
Hundreds of thousands are expropriated, dragged from their homes, packed into freight trains, and shipped to Siberia where they are left, often without food or shelter. In the end, 1,000,000 Ukrainian peasants are seized and more than 850,000 deported to the frozen tundras of Siberia, where many perished.

1932
The Soviet government increased Ukraine's production quotas by 44%, ensuring that they could not be met. Starvation becomes widespread.

1933
Ukrainians are dying at the rate of 25,000 a day. In the end, up to 10 million starve to death.

On November 28th 2006, the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament of Ukraine) had passed a decree defining the Holodomor as a deliberate Act of Genocide.

http://www.holodomorct.org/history.html



Ukraine had been the bread basket of Europe. Its rich soil produced an abundance of grain, which was harvested by a people who valued their cultural independence. In 1918, Ukraine declared its independence, after 200 years of Russian domination, in the wake of the Russian Revolution. For the next four years, Ukrainians fought off Lenin's army. Trying to lure Ukraine back into the communist fold with a softer hand, Lenin eased the grain requisitions — the amount of grain compulsorily sent to the Soviet Union — and allowed peasants to engage in small-scale free enterprise.

But Lenin's replacement, Stalin, was dismayed by the loss of Russian influence in Ukraine. Ukrainian schools were teaching Russian as a foreign language. Ukrainian literature and culture aligned itself more with Western attitudes.

By 1928, with a firm grip on power and annoyed by communism's failure to spread, Stalin lost all patience with regional separatism. He sent his forces to subdue and then smash Ukrainian culture, starting with the church and the intelligentsia.

Despite decades of Soviet denials and attempted revisionism, the documentary and anecdotal evidence indicates that Stalin and his henchmen orchestrated one of history's most wretched genocides. There were mass arrests. Priests were shot or sent to Siberian concentration camps. Some people simply disappeared and were never seen again.

Stalin wanted to transform the USSR from a rural society into a modern industrial power, but he needed to buy technology from the West. He had to have an exportable commodity. He had to have Ukraine's grain. Farms would be collectivised, which meant the liquidation of better-off peasants — basically, any farmer employing labour and using machinery.

Having crushed Ukraine's cultural and spiritual communities, Stalin believed that the prosperous peasants — a sort of rural middle class — would be the likely leaders of any subsequent revolt. They were declared enemies of the people, and it was forbidden to assist them.

Over the next three years, an estimated 1 million people were herded on to trains and sent to remote reaches of the Soviet Union, where they worked as slave labour to produce raw materials for sale to the West.

In the 1983 Canadian documentary Harvest Of Despair, a narrator says: "This was the end of the line for many of the best farmers, cultural and religious leaders of Ukraine."

YOUNG Bolsheviks were sent to Ukraine's villages to enforce the Soviet Union's grain demands. Rebellion was met by troop deployments and harsher enforcement. Demoralised farmers refused to work, so Stalin raised the grain quotas to beyond what could conceivably be produced, forcing desperate farmers to abandon their resistance and join the collectives.

Stalin's next act was to levy crippling quotas on the collectives, even though they ostensibly were "on side" with the Soviet regime.

The chief result of Stalin's demands was the deliberate starvation of a nation. Farmers crowded into cities, selling heirlooms to buy the bread they had produced. Village mothers threw starving children onto trains heading for Kiev, hoping that someone would take pity on the children and feed them at the other end.

Associate Professor Marko Pavlyshyn is head of the school of language, culture and linguistics at Monash University, and also director of its Centre for Ukrainian Studies. He says the years immediately preceding and following the 1991 fall of the Soviet Union presented an opportunity to gather new testimonies of famine survivors and to publish documents about the famine from Soviet archives.

"It is quite clear, for example, from resolutions of the Politburo, that the higher echelons of the party and Stalin himself not only knew what was going on, but were convinced it was necessary — in order to achieve the proclaimed goal of collectivisation and to break down any opposition from alleged class enemies.

"I don't know of any document that would say, 'Our aim is now to starve a people to the verge of extinction,' but it's quite clear that all the measures were going to have that effect.

"What was going through the minds of those who had to carry the policy out is very difficult to know. I'm sure there were some who were convinced that this was the only way to move the revolution forward — ideologically committed people who thought they were building for the future," he says.

"And there must have been a great many more who were terrified of what would happen to them should they fail to perform Stalin's orders to the letter. But from the perspective of those who were suffering, these people were all representatives of a regime that had lost all sense of humanity and who, on the contrary, had become evil."

The Communist Party had about 112,000 activists stationed in Ukraine to guard the grain from the hungry crowds who had harvested it. And while the Soviets blamed recalcitrant Ukrainians for food rationing in their cities, in reality the Soviet Union was busy dumping huge quantities of wheat on world markets.

Andur Hencke, the wife of the German consul stationed in Kiev, recalled Russian newspapers reporting a famine in Germany but no problems in the USSR. Angered, she went outside and took pictures of the corpses littering Kiev's streets.

Meanwhile, the Soviet disinformation system peddled to the world its message of serenity and plenty in Ukraine. Even visits to the nation by writer George Bernard Shaw and a senior French politician were

British correspondent Malcolm Muggeridge, however, defied a Soviet travel ban in order to report on life in the Ukrainian countryside. Muggeridge knew his reports of suffering and death were dynamite, so he sent them back to England in a diplomatic bag and fled the Soviet Union before they were published.

For every story reporting the forced famine, Muggeridge said later, two would appear in Russian papers denying the accusations. Interviewed decades later, Muggeridge condemned a New York Times correspondent, the Pulitzer Prize-winning Walter Duranty, as "the greatest liar I have met in 50 years of journalism".

Muggeridge said Duranty played the Soviets' propaganda game. "When it came to the famine brought about by collectivisation, his reporting was particularly disgraceful," Muggeridge said.

Duranty was allowed unchaperoned access to Ukraine, yet still managed to tell the West that talk of famine was ridiculous. An unfortunate result of Duranty's "no famine" articles was that the United States, previously uncertain, decided it was safe to recognise the Soviet Union. This occurred despite the existence of documents from the British Foreign Office showing that in private conversations in the British embassy, Duranty had reported that up to 10 million people may have died.

IN 2002, a campaign by Ukrainian communities around the world to have Duranty's Pulitzer Prize revoked was rejected by the award's committee.

Marko Pavlyshyn says the famine ended only when the futility of resistance was understood. "The war was won by the communists when the famine demonstrated to the peasants that it was not possible for them to resist. If they resisted, then the cost would be a terrible vengeance. The war aims had been achieved. There would never be any peasant rebellion again, and so the famine could end."


THE WORLD ACKNOWLEDGES

■Up to 10 million Ukrainians believed to have died in 1932-33.

■About one-third of the country's children died.

■The mass starvation was engineered by the Soviet Union under Stalin, to crush Ukraine's desire to remain independent.

■It was achieved by demanding more grain than Ukraine could reasonably produce.

■Enforced starvation reached its peak through the winter and spring of 1933, when an estimated 25,000 died every day.

Steve Waldon is an Age writer.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/ukraines-harvest-of-sorrow/2008/03/07/1204780057596.html

The water issue is fueled by one ridiculous crime against human beings and that is putting animals above people.

No apologies to the animal rights or endangered species advocates,  you deny humans work and food and prosperity over a little fish or something of that nature then you have done nothing righteous. 

No problem.  We can always buy our fruit, vegetables, and nuts from China, lining the pockets of the globalist middlemen on the way.

Hopefully, they are better at doing fruit than they are at doing baby's milk and dog food.

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 04:14:01 PM
No problem.  We can always buy our fruit, vegetables, and nuts from China, lining the pockets of the globalist middlemen on the way.

Hopefully, they are better at doing fruit than they are at doing baby's milk and dog food.

As long as the little fish lives we can rest in comfort.

Obamanomics: Here Come the Food Shortages
August 15, 2009 ·
By Scarecrow

While all eyes are on Wall Street, watching for even the faintest signal that the economy will recover as promised by Barack Obama, no one is paying attention to what is happening on the Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT). Here's a clue. It doesn't matter what happens on Wall Street. The big players and the big money have abandoned stocks in favor of commodities.

Commodities aren't something the average American understands, let alone associates with wealth. But it is commodities, the tack and trade of big agribusiness and big Government, that are the backbone of the economy. And what is happening there is beyond alarming. There's a food shortage coming to America.

The price of beef, pork, and chicken is plummetting. The price of non-organic milk, otherwise known as liquid chemical sludge, is plummeting as well. That's good for consumers, right? Wrong. The price is falling because family farmers and those with any sense at all are dumping their livestock as fast as they can. Why? Because the same speculators that caused the current economic catastrophe have fled Wall Street for the CBOT, investing heavily in grain, oil, copper, and other natural resources that are traded in Chicago. As a result, the price of grain is skyrocketing. Smart producers know they won't be able to feed their animals if this keeps up, so they're liquidating now. This is a great time to stock up on meat. And if you don't do it now, within a year, you won't be able to.

It's not just the price of meat and milk that will skyrocket, so will the price of cereal, infant formula, bread, pasta, and everything else. Not only will the price soar, in the very near future there will be a shortage of the foods we are used to getting for next to nothing. Ask yourself this, when speculators were playing with the oil market, what happened? Oil is a commoditiy, traded in the exact same manner, by the exact same people who are now speculating in food futures. This is the exact same pattern that caused Stalin's regime to seize Russia's farms in the early twentieth century. This is the same pattern that caused the Great Depression. Here we go again.

What can you do? As I said in an earlier post, buy a freezer or learn how to dry or can meat. Do it now. The price of food is about to go through the roof. Stock up on flour, sugar, and other commodities. And, don't tell anyone that you have a reserve of food. Why? Because after Stalin destroyed Russia's farming economy, and the urban population got real hungry, he seized all of the food that farmers had stored.

Think it can't happen here? Let's see–speculators drive the price of grain through the roof; farmers dump their livestock causing a glut, but they don't replenish the animals they cull which leads to a shortage. Meanwhile, as the speculators drive up the price of grain, more and more farmers plant grain to get in on the deal, which drives the prices even higher. Why you ask? Wouldn't more grain mean lower prices? Nope. When the price of grain starts rising, farmers will want to plant it, creating a demand for seed. But there is only so much seed to go around. So, to meet the demand for seed, grain that should be processed for consumption will be diverted to seed, expensive seed at that. Because this is where the laws of supply and demand hit home. And then, just when you think it can't get worse, the "greens" decide to regulate how much dust combines (equipment that is used to harvest grain) can emit, making it even more expensive to harvest grain, and even more farmers are priced out of business.

Like Thomas E. Woods, Jr. says in his excellent book Meltdown: A Free-Market Look at Why the Stock Market Collapsed, the Economy Tanked, and Government Bailouts Will Make Things Worse, "we are really in for it."

http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/obamanomics-here-come-the-food-shortages/

I see things a bit larger than fish and water.
Currently we have or have not an oil shortage. Burning fossile fuel does or does not cause global warming.
The ones in power say oil is running out and burning it causes the green house effect.
How does that link to water? Money.
Because the price of crude oil rise some are searching for alternative fuel. in the meanwhile eco-tax is added to oil products to maximize gains. Sorry to protect th enviorment.
One of the alternatives to oil is bio-mass. That means farming. It will cause even more food shortage because for many 3rd world farmers it's finacially better to grow bio-mass than ordinary food. They don't even have choice because economy is the strongest army on the planet. Water... coming to that now. Over here for  a while bio mass was hyped. Just as soy bean products (personally I like the stuff) and then someone came to the conclusion soy beans require a lot of water. It's one of the most water ineffecient farming techniques. Add to little info bits from .gov to that. You know a car takes 5000 gallons water to produce. Surely we have to protect the water. And farmers need to farm for food.
We are just pushed into more taxes.
Over simplified I see this:
Oil is discovered. Oil industry and products surge. A good time for all. Greed kicks in ans some start getting rich. Very rich.
The next level.
The world is addicted to oil. We are told it's harmful and should lessen consumption. But economy is linked to consumption of oil so there isn't really  a choice. (just as the bio-mass farmer) Eco-tax is invented to lower consumption of oil. Of course not to line the pockets of the already rich....
The next level.
Oil + tax has become so expensive that alternatives are seached for. Forests are destroyed for farming. Somehow the loss of trees must be compensated by more taxes. The farming of oil alternatives cause food/water shortage.
Yes you guessed it.... water needs to be taxed.

In the meanwhile we are 'educated' that eating meat is cruel. That 1 kg meat takes 4 kg grain. Lifestock also has the nasty habit that they drink. Nice as we are we start using more soy products. Pity that soy uses a lot of water.
Also it doesn't grow here so transport is needed. Bad bad baaaad. Some dorks even suggest we should only eat local food. And only local food that grows without greenhouses.

The result? On everything there will be (more) eco-tax.
So .gov isn't nature friendly to protect a fish, a hamster or a tree. No they are just firming their grip on all resources.

Strange Martial Law via Food Control: HR 2749

HR 2749 would give FDA the power to order a quarantine of a geographic area, including "prohibiting or restricting the movement of food or of any vehicle being used or that has been used to transport or hold such food within the geographic area."  

[This - "that has been used to transport or hold such food" - would mean all cars that have ever brought groceries home or any pickup someone has eaten take-out in, so this means ALL TRANSPORTATION can be shut down under this.  This is using food as a cover for martial law.]  

Under this provision, farmers markets and local food sources could be shut down, even if they are not the source of the contamination.  The agency can halt all movement of all food in a geographic area.  

[This is also a means of total control over the population under the cover of food, and at any time.]



The first Patriot Act was passed using fear of terrorism. This Patriot Act is more coy, hiding under a cloak of "food safety" and but also using fear – fear of food contamination.  Evidently, Americans are supposed to be so frightened by the slightest possibility of a terrorist or of E-coli, they would trade away all their precious, hard fought freedoms for the promise of safety.  Or at least, that is what the trade-off has become.  "Terrorism" and "contamination" are great bugaboos used to open doors to an end to the US Constitution.  That is exactly what we are left with after those who wrote HR 2749 are done.  

* HR 2749 would empower FDA to regulate how crops are raised and harvested.  It puts the federal government right on the farm, dictating to our farmers.



We wanted good food.  We never wanted to trap our farmers into an industrial prison on their own land, afraid moment to moment of not fulfilling some monstrous set of instructions that never end – rules the farmers loathe, rules that have not only nothing to do with real farming but which are antithetical to it.  Why have we ended up with HR 2749, an intense corporate nightmare around the most central and necessary aspects of a free country and of free human beings – farming and food?

http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/strange-martial-law-via-food-control-hr-2749/

THIS BILL HAS PASSED THE HOUSE--RAMMED THROUGH RIGHT BEFORE RECESS. :sigh:

 :cloud9: The Lord showed myself and some friends that this was coming, 20 years ago. A piece of land big enough for a garden and the purchase of seeds (if you buy heirloom seeds that they haven't genetically altered) is going to be the biggest asset, next to a water source. They have started a world seed bank in Sweden or Norway I think it is, in an underground facility. While only the Lord can be looked to for help, He has been giving a lot of people a head's up for decades. Blessings....

Seed is being patented. It doesn't require much thought to figure out it will make food more expensive.

Editted the underlined part.

 

Quote from: WWNo they are just firming their grip on all resources.

Exactly, the oil crisis was caused by [many offshore] speculators driving up the price of oil on the commodities markets [take a look at goldman sachs and its relationship to the current and past administration] and now the commodities traders seem to be playing the same game with our food supply.

And where is Congress?  Out to lunch.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2009, 05:49:43 PM
Seed is being patented. It doesn't require much thought to figure out it will make food cheaper.

You're being sarcastic, right?

 :cloud9: My uneducated guess is, that would depend on who owns the patent. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on August 19, 2009, 05:47:00 PM
:cloud9: The Lord showed myself and some friends that this was coming, 20 years ago. A piece of land big enough for a garden and the purchase of seeds (if you buy heirloom seeds that they haven't genetically altered) is going to be the biggest asset, next to a water source. They have started a world seed bank in Sweden or Norway I think it is, in an underground facility. While only the Lord can be looked to for help, He has been giving a lot of people a head's up for decades. Blessings....

The problem is

We are no longer a country of farmers
This new bill HR2749 has passed the house and is going to the senate which will put all family farms under strict regulation by the new Food Police
It is very hard to keep packaged seeds for any length of time
People do not know how to make seeds from their own plants, even if they could grow their own food
We are now a population of cities, not farms

A Simple Plan

Destroy the money supply
Destroy the energy supply
Destroy the food suppy

Destroy private property ownership

Oh, I forgot--limit healthcare by treating it as a scarce resource

IM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

RFA: If Speculation Drove Oil Price Volatility, Attention Should Also Be Given to Grain Markets
Date Posted: July 28, 2009

Washington—As reported in numerous outlets, including The Wall Street Journal, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) is preparing a detailed report on the role of speculators in the oil market.



The CFTC report, set to be released sometime in August, is expected to outline the significant role speculation played in driving the wild swings seen in oil prices over the past 18-24 months.


At its peak last summer, oil hit $148 per barrel before falling to a low of $33 per barrel in December 2008.


In a letter to CFTC Chairman Gary Gensler, the Renewable Fuels Association urged the inclusion of grain markets in the Commission's report if not already included.



"Common sense told us that speculation, both in energy markets as well as in other commodities like grains, was a significant factor in the rollercoaster ride we have experienced in commodity markets of late," said Renewable Fuels Association President Bob Dinneen.


"While we don't know the full extent of CFTC's report, we are hopeful the Commission also examined the role of speculators in grain markets.


"Last year's rapid swings in the price of corn corresponded perfectly with the dramatic swings in oil prices, suggesting that the oil market was in the driver's seat and other commodities were just along for the ride.


"Still, I hope the CFTC gives all commodity markets the scrutiny they deserve and uncovers the true causes of last year's unprecedented volatility."


During the height of the manufactured and fictitious food and fuel debate, the ethanol industry routinely noted the role of energy prices and speculation in the rising price of grains like corn and higher food prices.



In testimony before the U.S. Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs in May 2008, hedge fund manager Michael Masters said, "Right now, Index Speculators have stockpiled enough corn futures to potentially fuel the entire United States ethanol industry at full capacity for a year."



Now that the role of speculation in the oil markets is becoming clearer, it begs the question about the role of these same speculators in grain and other commodity markets.



"The RFA recognizes the important and fundamental role that honest hedging plays in commodity markets," wrote Dinneen in the letter.


"It allows producers and consumers of the commodities to protect against volatility caused by natural disasters, political turmoil and other factors.



"But unbridled speculation undermines the value of futures markets.

"Market players who have no intentions of ever taking delivery of the commodities they buy are hurting the economy and restricting the ability of legitimate players to use the markets as they were intended."

http://www.grainnet.com/articles/RFA__If_Speculation_Drove_Oil_Price_Volatility__Attention_Should_Also_Be_Given_to_Grain_Markets-79737.html

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:16:16 PM
IM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

Yeah, well while you're visiting how about calling your representatives?

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 05:53:25 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2009, 05:49:43 PM
Seed is being patented. It doesn't require much thought to figure out it will make food cheaper.

You're being sarcastic, right?

Not sarcastic. Just forgot to type "not" or "more expensive"
I'll edit my message.

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2009, 06:24:45 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 05:53:25 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2009, 05:49:43 PM
Seed is being patented. It doesn't require much thought to figure out it will make food cheaper.

You're being sarcastic, right?

Not sarcastic. Just forgot to type "not" or "more expensive"
I'll edit my message.

They would patent the air we breathe if they could.

Oh, they are--Cap and Trade.

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 06:17:30 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:16:16 PM
IM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

Yeah, well while you're visiting how about calling your representatives?

Hello, Diablo Inc. how can we serve you today?

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 06:17:30 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:16:16 PM
IM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

Yeah, well while you're visiting how about calling your representatives?

representative??? you mean Jesus?

chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:34:11 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 06:17:30 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:16:16 PM
IM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

Yeah, well while you're visiting how about calling your representatives?

representative??? you mean Jesus?

chuckt

No I mean the earthly representatives to Congress and the Senate which Jesus gave you.

well, maybe satan gave you the ones you have but Jesus made it possible to have any.

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 06:36:07 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:34:11 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 06:17:30 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:16:16 PM
IM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

Yeah, well while you're visiting how about calling your representatives?

representative??? you mean Jesus?

chuckt

No I mean the earthly representatives to Congress and the Senate which Jesus gave you.

well, maybe satan gave you the ones you have but Jesus made it possible to have any.

should i go with the less evil of them?

if i am not part of  that part of the babylon system, why should i participate? i kinda long for persecution to come.

i do and will pray for them though.

chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:43:09 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 06:36:07 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:34:11 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 06:17:30 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:16:16 PM
IM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

Yeah, well while you're visiting how about calling your representatives?

representative??? you mean Jesus?

chuckt

No I mean the earthly representatives to Congress and the Senate which Jesus gave you.

well, maybe satan gave you the ones you have but Jesus made it possible to have any.

should i go with the less evil of them?

if i am not part of  that part of the babylon system, why should i participate? i kinda long for persecution to come.

i do and will pray for them though.

chuckt

The tail is wagging the dog right now, and big international hedge funds are playing with the price of your food--like they played with the price of your oil.

They have tons of money--and nobody is regulating them.  They care not who they destroy.

Meanwhile, Congress is passing one draconian law after another.

Do you care?  I do.  If not for me, for the children...

QuoteThe tail is wagging the dog right now, and big international hedge funds are playing with the price of your food--like they played with the price of your oil.

fine with me....

QuoteThey have tons of money--and nobody is regulating them.  They care not who they destroy.

thier money will perish.

QuoteMeanwhile, Congress is passing one draconian law after another.

yup doing what they do, its the nature, dogs wag thier tail, cant stop em.

QuoteDo you care?  I do.  If not for me, for the children...

my children are prepared, they know the deal, they are sealed.

peace
chuckt

1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
       to those who issue oppressive decrees,

2 to deprive the poor of their rights
       and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
       making widows their prey
       and robbing the fatherless.

3 What will you do on the day of reckoning,
       when disaster comes from afar?
       To whom will you run for help?
       Where will you leave your riches?

--Isa 10





Luke 11:46
Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

Quotemy children are prepared, they know the deal, they are sealed.

And what about other people's children?

They're on their own?

So does all this mean Jesus is coming?

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 07:05:07 PM
1 Woe to those who make unjust laws,
       to those who issue oppressive decrees,

2 to deprive the poor of their rights
       and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people,
       making widows their prey
       and robbing the fatherless.

3 What will you do on the day of reckoning,
       when disaster comes from afar?
       To whom will you run for help?
       Where will you leave your riches?

--Isa 10





Luke 11:46
Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.

what does that have to with our discussion, you saying i deprive the poor of their rights ? who says i load people down with burdens ??? ETC.


do you REALLY think the goverment can fix these things?b who is that say man can save the earth??? who is it that says man is god?

chuckt

Quote from: Molly on August 19, 2009, 07:07:21 PM

Quotemy children are prepared, they know the deal, they are sealed.

And what about other people's children?

They're on their own?

i help as many as i can, i know EXACTLY where my money goes and to who  :winkgrin:


"""but Lord Lord, i voted, a got involved in politics, i gave em money"" ETC ETC.


dont accuse me of sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing, or that we shouldnt do anything.

IF God has called you someplace then Go for it, dont think others should do what God hasnt told them, even telling them not too.


IF we all got together and ""fixed"" the world, who gets the credit? look look look what we did, the news and the press would glorify men, as they already do.


lets take back the streets of america for God, for real, that mindset is dangerous, and one might find himself fighting against Gods very plan for the country.










peace
chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 07:52:24 PM
do you REALLY think the goverment can fix these things?

Not when their handlers are greedy.

Quotewho is that say man can save the earth??? who is it that says man is god?

I think man can at least try. Ok it will never become a garden of Eden but I think there is room for improvement.

That said I don't see it happen unless some very drastic changes take place. Changes that will cost many lives...

Quote from: WhiteWings on August 19, 2009, 08:04:13 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 07:52:24 PM
do you REALLY think the goverment can fix these things?

Not when their handlers are greedy.

Quotewho is that say man can save the earth??? who is it that says man is god?

I think man can at least try. Ok it will never become a garden of Eden but I think there is room for improvement.

That said I don't see it happen unless some very drastic changes take place. Changes that will cost many lives...

i never said anything about not trying, and we should try, some thru goverment some NOT, i am of the NOT.

if anyone thinks the goverment will become a loving christian insitution they are deluded.

you wanna work thru the goverment, go for it, im not stopping you, DONT demand i do the same.

paul turned that world upside down without the help of the goverment.

where is he today? where is Christ?

when i say ""you"" i dont mean ""you""  :winkgrin:


peace
chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on August 19, 2009, 06:16:16 PMIM GLAD IM JUST A VISITOR ON THIS PLANET.  :bgdance:

Not sure why, but I'm the only Christian that can't admit to that, otherwise the very Christians that would claim this of themselves think I'm off my rocker. Someone was asking me something to this effect on Skype sometime back & the Holy Spirit rose up in me immediately & said "IT'S A TRAP!" & would only let me say I was from earth, & the disappointment in their reply on the IM part of Skype gave me the mixed impression that they'd of either become skittish on me if I'd said anything else - or that somehow it would have been held against me as though I were looney tunes! For some reason, I'm the only Christian that can't say this, or any implications of other worldly, otherwise :mrflo: :Whistle: :angry1: :shakepoint: :whistleshake: :eek: :spank: :punish: :hammerhead: :gfish: :Shoot: :bdh: :talkangry: :thewife: 'cause they're thinking I'm a quack :duck:

I just came across this post on Wisefire Community, and thought I'd share it here:


"The Gospel of the Kingdom.

The true Gospel of the Kingdom of God is not the same Gospel as that preached in the churches, nor is it the so-called Gospel of the Bible, for it is the Gospel of the Spirit of God issuing forth from the Kingdom of God within the spirit of Man.
As John taught in the Scriptures, unless we are generated (given spirit life) from a higher source, (that is from the Spirit within) we cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven, and unless we are generated from Spirit, we cannot enter the Kingdom.

The Gospel that we have all been listening to is about a God who lives somewhere up in the sky, who works independantly from us, and who will receive us in his Kingdom in the sky, if we are good.

The real Kingdom of God is within the spirits of Man, where God has planned to live, for we are being created for his habitation, and Christ in us is the fulfilment of that plan.
Jesus, as the firstbegotten of the Christ family, became the "Way" shower, to show us how to get there, not from anything he said or did of himself, but from what God showed him, and did in him.
Jesus himself spoke of the "Way" that involved being taught by the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, and Paul reinforced that teaching by saying that once we begin to be taught by the Holy Spirit, we would not need any Man to teach us.
To the religious people of his time, Jesus said that they could not yet go where he was going, but spoke later of a time that they would be where he is, and that time refers to when Man gives up on human teachers, and is disciplined into the ways of being taught by the Holy Spirit from within themselves.
The Gospel of the Kingdom is about leaving the Tree of knowledge, with its laws, and becoming a part of the Tree of Life, where all our needs are supplied from the Kingdom of Heaven within us, but it is a sacrificial way, that requires the willingness to lose what we have thought was our life, for the sake of our real spiritual life, that is the Christ being formed within us.

There is a reason why this Gospel has been hidden for generations, to allow Mans efforts to come to nothing, which leaves him with no other choice but to turn to God, such is Man's vanity.
We are now in the time of the fulfilment of God's plans, and this means the end of Man's plans, and the first stage will be seen in the collapse of the economy, and the final destruction of the monetary system, to enable the introduction of Love as God's economy.
With this end to the monetary system will come the collapse of the religious system, which is dependant upon the monetary system for it's support.
There will be no need for panic, though many will, for God will not leave us helpless, and is setting up his own system to support those who trust him.

The true Gospel of the Kingdom is good news, because the truth is that we, as God's creations, have within us everything that we need, and it only requires us to come out of our reprobate minds, and seek God within our spirit to find fellowship with God, as Adam had in the Garden of Eden before he sold his birthright."

Oh great...I'm so relieved....not. :mshock:


14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

---Mat 25

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 04:47:04 AM
Oh great...I'm so relieved....not. :mshock:


14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

---Mat 25

Sounds to me like maybe your faith is misplaced. That's unfortunate.

Peter could walk on water when he kept his focus in the right place. He didn't begin to sink until he took his eyes off of Jesus and looked at the waves.

I don't like the circumstances any more than you do, but my faith is not in the things of this world, regardless of how Godly their origin.

just to drop a note on food and farming...
here in my speck of the woods more than 80% of genetically modified crops failed this year...this is devastating to the local economy and many farmers...commercial as well as sub-sistence farmers...some have been in debt for a long time and will now lose their farms, the gm modified crops was supposed to yield better results and save them from bankrupcy...

one of the ex head hochos running THE biggest gm seed company in the world (which supplied all these seeds to our farmers), is now part of the US government...anyone getting the picture?

and for all those "visitors to the planet"...welcome...enjoy your stay...we could need a little extraterrestial help it seems...even though God gave man the earth to rule with justice and to be fruitful (ie please refer to a book we call Genesis :thumbsup:)

but it seems that a part of "mankind" is determined to destroy all life on earth, to grab everything for themselves...
now, my question...is the rest of mankind just allowing this to happen saying "these are earthly things, not spiritual", or "its God's job to sort it out" or "Jesus will come again and sort everything out"...is this what the modern church is preaching? do we not take seriously our role as curators of God's garden, is this the way we ought to treat God's creation given to us? is this the earth we are leaving for the peacemakers (those who'd be called the children of God) to inherit? closer to home, is this the earth you want to leave to your children?
and saying all we need is faith...haven't you heard that faith without works is DEAD?!

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 04:47:04 AM
Oh great...I'm so relieved....not. :mshock:


14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

---Mat 25

The kindom of God and the kingdoms of the word do not MIX,  oil and water.

peace
chuckt

Quote from: noname on August 20, 2009, 11:47:20 AM
just to drop a note on food and farming...
here in my speck of the woods more than 80% of genetically modified crops failed this year...this is devastating to the local economy and many farmers...commercial as well as sub-sistence farmers...some have been in debt for a long time and will now lose their farms, the gm modified crops was supposed to yield better results and save them from bankrupcy...

one of the ex head hochos running THE biggest gm seed company in the world (which supplied all these seeds to our farmers), is now part of the US government...anyone getting the picture?

and for all those "visitors to the planet"...welcome...enjoy your stay...we could need a little extraterrestial help it seems...even though God gave man the earth to rule with justice and to be fruitful (ie please refer to a book we call Genesis :thumbsup:)

but it seems that a part of "mankind" is determined to destroy all life on earth, to grab everything for themselves...
now, my question...is the rest of mankind just allowing this to happen saying "these are earthly things, not spiritual", or "its God's job to sort it out" or "Jesus will come again and sort everything out"...is this what the modern church is preaching? do we not take seriously our role as curators of God's garden, is this the way we ought to treat God's creation given to us? is this the earth we are leaving for the peacemakers (those who'd be called the children of God) to inherit? closer to home, is this the earth you want to leave to your children?
and saying all we need is faith...haven't you heard that faith without works is DEAD?!

I'm with you, noname.


18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

--Mat 25



PS what is the biggest gm seed co in the world? 

Quote from: chuckt on August 20, 2009, 01:46:35 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 04:47:04 AM
Oh great...I'm so relieved....not. :mshock:


14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

---Mat 25

The kindom of God and the kingdoms of the word do not MIX,  oil and water.

peace
chuckt

I am waiting for this, then:


Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 04:35:56 PM

Quote from: chuckt on August 20, 2009, 01:46:35 PM

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 04:47:04 AM
Oh great...I'm so relieved....not. :mshock:


14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

---Mat 25

The kindom of God and the kingdoms of the word do not MIX,  oil and water.

peace
chuckt

but we dont belong to the kingdoms of the world we are in the celestials we wont be around and if we are we wont be in flesh bodies.

but yes it will be a wounderous thing.


chuckt

I am waiting for this, then:


Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Quote from: Chucktbut we dont belong to the kingdoms of the world we are in the celestials we wont be around and if we are we wont be in flesh bodies.

but yes it will be a wounderous thing.


chuckt

And, you know this how?  Are you talking about the rapture?

Christ is a man in a flesh body--the Word become flesh.

He will judge the world as a man.  So why should his saints be different?


29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33So Paul departed from among them.

--Acts 17

Quote from: noname on August 20, 2009, 11:47:20 AM
just to drop a note on food and farming...
here in my speck of the woods more than 80% of genetically modified crops failed this year...this is devastating to the local economy and many farmers...commercial as well as sub-sistence farmers...some have been in debt for a long time and will now lose their farms, the gm modified crops was supposed to yield better results and save them from bankrupcy...

one of the ex head hochos running THE biggest gm seed company in the world (which supplied all these seeds to our farmers), is now part of the US government...anyone getting the picture?

and for all those "visitors to the planet"...welcome...enjoy your stay...we could need a little extraterrestial help it seems...even though God gave man the earth to rule with justice and to be fruitful (ie please refer to a book we call Genesis :thumbsup:)

but it seems that a part of "mankind" is determined to destroy all life on earth, to grab everything for themselves...
now, my question...is the rest of mankind just allowing this to happen saying "these are earthly things, not spiritual", or "its God's job to sort it out" or "Jesus will come again and sort everything out"...is this what the modern church is preaching? do we not take seriously our role as curators of God's garden, is this the way we ought to treat God's creation given to us? is this the earth we are leaving for the peacemakers (those who'd be called the children of God) to inherit? closer to home, is this the earth you want to leave to your children?
and saying all we need is faith...haven't you heard that faith without works is DEAD?!

:cloud9: Why does this not surprise me about the crop failures?  :sigh: Blessings....

QuoteQuote from: noname on Today at 04:47:20 AM
just to drop a note on food and farming...
here in my speck of the woods more than 80% of genetically modified crops failed this year...this is devastating to the local economy and many farmers...commercial as well as sub-sistence farmers...some have been in debt for a long time and will now lose their farms, the gm modified crops was supposed to yield better results and save them from bankrupcy...

one of the ex head hochos running THE biggest gm seed company in the world (which supplied all these seeds to our farmers), is now part of the US government...anyone getting the picture?

and for all those "visitors to the planet"...welcome...enjoy your stay...we could need a little extraterrestial help it seems...even though God gave man the earth to rule with justice and to be fruitful (ie please refer to a book we call Genesis )

but it seems that a part of "mankind" is determined to destroy all life on earth, to grab everything for themselves...
now, my question...is the rest of mankind just allowing this to happen saying "these are earthly things, not spiritual", or "its God's job to sort it out" or "Jesus will come again and sort everything out"...is this what the modern church is preaching? do we not take seriously our role as curators of God's garden, is this the way we ought to treat God's creation given to us? is this the earth we are leaving for the peacemakers (those who'd be called the children of God) to inherit? closer to home, is this the earth you want to leave to your children?
and saying all we need is faith...haven't you heard that faith without works is DEAD?!


I'm with you, noname.


18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

--Mat 25



PS what is the biggest gm seed co in the world?

Monsanto  :sigh: its evil to me  :mshock:

So explosive was this meeting that it was determined at the time that all records of the gathering were to be destroyed. So how do we know what happened?? Some honest soul, a believer in the truth, or perhaps a Kennedy loyalist, did not destroy the stenographers tape. It somehow, made its way to the National Archives where a FOIA lawsuit by legendary assassination researcher Harold Weisberg finally dislodged it years later. And this is how we know that men trusted with finding out the truth had no such mission and resolved to bury the matter.

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/?widgetType=BlogArchive&widgetId=BlogArchive1&action=toggle&dir=open&toggle=MONTHLY-1220252400000&toggleopen=MONTHLY-1225522800000



Was John Kennedy killed by a lone gunman?  As if that were  ever a serious question.   Everyone knows the truth in their heart of hearts.  The truth is obvious. 


How much longer do we have to believe such simple lies as we are fed?  How much longer before we can throw off the oppression of this parasite on the human condition, satan?



He knew it then, and, give him this, the dimensions of that horror never left him. When I interviewed him for the Los Angeles Times in 1995, after the publication of his confessional memoir, his assessment of the madness he had unleashed was all too clear:

"Look, we dropped three to four times the tonnage on that tiny little area as were dropped by the Allies in all of the theaters in World War II over a period of five years. It was unbelievable. We killed—there were killed—3,200,000 Vietnamese, excluding the South Vietnamese military. My God! The killing, the tonnage—it was fantastic. The problem was that we were trying to do something that was militarily impossible—we were trying to break the will; I don't think we can break the will by bombing short of genocide."

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090707_robert_scheer_july_8_column/

Question by Molly.

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 09:15:19 PM
Was John Kennedy killed by a lone gunman?

Answer by Molly.

Quote from: Molly on August 20, 2009, 09:15:19 PMfed

 :cloud9: Per the assassinations; I pieced together some things from reading an 800+ page volume on J. Edgar Hoover,some other readings years ago, and a guest speaker at college, an expert in the study of it. I had never been able to understand what made the vast number of people get on board with this plan, from the top to the "lowly" Dallas police department. What made this appear sane to an 'average Joe', in other words, with nothing to gain politically?

IMO my answer was in reading about the showdown between Kennedy and the Russians over the missile crisis. Jack and Bobby were in a meeting with the Russian diplomat in which he told him if the Russians did not pull their missiles off of Cuba, irregardless of what they did with them, that he was not going to live in an American with Russian missiles 90 miles off it's shore, and he would himself push the button beginning a nuclear war.

Apparently, the Russian turned white, and wanted to know if he was serious, and Bobby assured him they were. As it turns out, they only appeared to comply because some missiles stayed there anyway, but this set up a chain of events once it leaked out, that caused their deaths. At the time, there was tremendous fear of the bomb in this country bordering on mass hysteria. People were building bomb shelters in their back yards.

So this fear was used by the vice president, the CIA, the secret service, and on down, to make it look justified to eliminate 2 men that had agreed to press the button without us being under attack. Then it all made sense that they could use this fear of nuclear war being initiated, to manipulate people that ordinarily would have never considered such an atrocity. You need only follow the careers of the people involved after that to see who profited from it. My :2c: Blessings.....

Hospitals Resist Obama's Proposed Medicare Cuts
The president suggests trimming federal payments to hospitals by about $200 billion over the next 10 years, saying greater efficiencies and broader insurance coverage will justify the change.

AP

Saturday, June 13, 2009

President Obama said Saturday he wants to help pay for his health care overhaul by slowing Medicare and Medicaid spending, but hospitals, medical technicians and others are resisting.

The high-stakes struggle over medical care is heating up as Obama declares the status quo unacceptable.

The president suggests trimming federal payments to hospitals by about $200 billion over the next 10 years, saying greater efficiencies and broader insurance coverage will justify the change. Hospitals, especially those with many poor patients, say the proposed cuts are unfair and will harm the sick and elderly.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/13/obama-proposes-new-cuts-federal-spending-health-reform/



Obama outlines $313 billion in Medicare, Medicaid cuts
By Noam N. Levey McClatchy Tribune
June 13, 2009, 6:21PM
WASHINGTON — Under pressure to pay for his ambitious reshaping of the nation's health-care system, President Barack Obama on Saturday outlined $313 billion in Medicare and Medicaid spending cuts over the next decade to help cover the cost of expanding coverage to tens of millions of America's uninsured.

The proposal comes on top of more than $634 billion in new revenue Obama suggested reserving for health care in his February budget plan.

The president, who increasingly is focusing on his health-care agenda as Congress struggles to craft legislation, said his latest plan would help control the country's skyrocketing health-care tab.



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6477548.html



He's waging war on medicare and our hospital system.  Now you know why the seniors are so upset at the town halls.  I hope more and more wake up to this.  He's attacking the most vulnerable members of our society.

Meanwhile he talks out of both sides of his mouth, slashing medicare's budget while threatening that medicare will be broke in 8 years.  Is that a threat?  Sure it will be broke if you cut the budget by hundreds of billions of dollars.  Liars!

MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
State denies cancer treatment, offers suicide instead
'To say, we'll pay for you to die, but not pay for you to live, it's cruel'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: June 19, 2008
11:15 pm Eastern

© 2009 WorldNetDaily

State officials have offered a lung cancer patient the option of having the Oregon Health Plan, set up in 1994 to ration health care, pay for an assisted suicide but not for the chemotherapy prescribed by her physician.

The story appears to be a happy ending for Barbara Wagner, who has been notified by a drug manufacturer that it will provide the expensive medication, estimated to cost $4,000 a month, for the first year and then allow her to apply for further treatment, according to a report in the Eugene Register-Guard.

But the word from the state was coverage for palliative care, which would include the state's assisted suicide program, would be allowed but not coverage for the cancer treatment drugs.

"To say to someone, we'll pay for you to die, but not pay for you to live, it's cruel," Wagner told the newspaper. "I get angry. Who do they think they are?"

She said she was devastated when the state health program refused coverage for Tarceva, the drug her doctor ordered for treatment of her lung cancer.

We have been warning for years that this was a possibility in Oregon," said the "Bioethics Pundit" on the Bioethics blog. "Medicaid is rationed, meaning that some treatments are not covered. But assisted suicide is always covered."

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67565

 :cloud9: This is sick. Adam only gets more and more insane as more time passes.  :sigh: Come quickly, O Lord. Blessings....

Quote from: chuckt on August 20, 2009, 01:46:35 PM

The kindom of God and the kingdoms of the word do not MIX,  oil and water.

peace
chuckt

But all the Kingdom citizens are in some earthly kingdom as well. Something to consider as far as 'mixing' is concerned. From one perspective they are more mixed that one may initially think.

Quote from: rosered on August 20, 2009, 06:48:35 PM
Monsanto  :sigh: its evil to me  :mshock:

Is Monsanto Being Thrown Under the Anti-Trust Bus?

In July 2008, the Organization For Competitive Markets started the Crop Seed Concentration Project an initiative target specifically at Monsanto, which the group says controls 90% of the market for genetically modified seed, a figure Monsanto disputes.

"Monsanto's effort to enforce licensing agreements and protect its patent rights has dramatically altered American agriculture," the OCM (Organization for Competitive Markets) says on its Web site. "Monsanto has filed more than 100 patent infringement lawsuits against U.S. farmers."

The OCM's crop concentration campaign coincides with U.S. President Barack Obama's vow to enforce antitrust laws that were neglected by the Bush administration, and its national convention attracted the representatives from the Federal Trade Commission, the Department of Justice, and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

More:
http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/08/21/monsanto-dupont/ (http://www.moneymorning.com/2009/08/21/monsanto-dupont/)
http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSN1843575620090818 (http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssIndustryMaterialsUtilitiesNews/idUSN1843575620090818)

Quote from: Molly on August 22, 2009, 08:40:27 AM
MATTERS OF LIFE AND DEATH
State denies cancer treatment, offers suicide instead

Thanks to those who fight.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,392962,00.html

QuoteFor Stroup, however, suicide was never an option. He fought back, and the Oregon Health Plan eventually reversed its decision and is now paying for his chemotherapy, giving him hope he'll be around a little longer for his 80-year-old mother and five grandchildren.

Bump, excerpt from OP;

I believe God's going to fix everything in the end [Ultimate Reconciliation/Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ - all enemies His footstool, God All in All].   My thoughts are what may occur in the meantime.  I think some of us here at TM may believe it's only getting better from here, with things building to the Kingdom;  some of us may see things more as the "great falling away", "will He find faith on the earth", and the earth will be cleansed with fire before the new heaven and new earth;  and some surely have mixtures of various other POVs.

In general, I think these are upsetting times for a lot of folks, and is at the very least an opportunity for us to share with others, both our financial resources and the message of Life.

[David] said he had never seen the righteous forsaken or begging for bread.

I thank God often for His gracious blessings on me and my family.  He has given us food, shelter, and protection.

How's everyone doing in these unsettled times?  Opinions, thoughts, feelings are great, but does anyone also have any specific, absolutely certain words from the Lord on these matters?

Part of me says prepare.  I believe I hear the Lord say, "Trust in Me".

Quote from: jabcat on June 30, 2010, 11:08:28 AM
Bump, excerpt from OP;

I believe God's going to fix everything in the end [Ultimate Reconciliation/Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ - all enemies His footstool, God All in All].   My thoughts are what may occur in the meantime.  I think some of us here at TM may believe it's only getting better from here,

I think not. Oil spill. US war ships to Iran. Economic collapse. Situation around Israel.
I think the four horsemen will ride before things start looking bright.

It's just like in the days of NOAH.

There is safety in the ARK.

I'm rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.


[By the way, did you all know that the Titanic was the first conspiracy of the 20th century?  Notice I didn't say theory.  Yes, indeed, she was directed into that iceberg on purpose because of her cargo, the wealthy industrialists of America:

millionaire John Jacob Astor IV and his pregnant wife Madeleine; industrialist Benjamin Guggenheim; Macy's department store owner Isidor Straus and his wife Ida; Denver millionaire Margaret Brown; Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon and his wife, couturière Lady Duff-Gordon; streetcar magnate George Dunton Widener; Pennsylvania Railroad executive John Borland Thayer and 17-year-old son Jack Thayer; journalist William Thomas Stead; Charles M. Hays, president of Canada's Grand Trunk Railway; entrepreneur Walter D. Douglas; the Countess of Rothes; United States presidential aide Major Archibald Butt; author and socialite Helen Churchill Candee; author Jacques Futrelle; writer and painter Francis Davis Millet; American silent film actress Dorothy Gibson, White Star Line's Managing Director J. Bruce Ismay; Jesuit priest and photographer Father Frank Browne; and from Harland & Wolff builder Thomas Andrews.

Luckily J.P.Morgan cancelled at the last minute.  That's almost as lucky as selling your BP stock right before the rig explodes.]


Truffles, anyone?

Quote from: Cardinal on March 09, 2009, 06:00:55 PM
I'd be seeing if I could sue the federal government for failing to protect my borders.

http://orbisvitae.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=58247

I've been wondering if this economic crisis is a form of Judgment on the Big businesses of America.  If you ask me, the way big business is ran is very similar to Organized Religon.  Both ran solely on power and fear. 

 :cloud9: I don't think they have been suffering much, IMO......I think big business caused this mess with their greed. Now if the whole economy collapses worldwide, as I think it will eventually, then yes I'd say He's judged it. My  :2c: Blessings....