Spiritualism without Faith

[micah7:9]

I have for about 30 years felt AA and the big book are more closer aligned to what the Bible and Jesus teaches than any denomination that has erupted. imo. :dsunny:

[JulieTang84]

Weird thread.

AA teaches the overcoming of a spiritual problem, with a spiritual path, IE the God of your understanding.

Would you conciser this another path if the believer does indeed find a spiritual path that enables him to serve others and overcome substance abuse?  It seems to bring one to the same place as a faith in Christ.

Is it God "Father" working in the individual even though they have not chosen Christianity because of whatever bias they may have?

I say yes it is.  There is only one God, and the very same God that works in the Christian to overcome sin is working in the Alcoholic to overcome addiction.

Now you may be able to say it is just faith.

If you have never read Alcohol Anonymous the big book, I recommend it.  It lays out a faith in God identical to Christianity without the Christian verbiage.  I have met some very spiritual individuals who are not Christians.

Is this not what Jesus meant by those to whom little was given. In my mind He always praised the ones who had little and gave much. I believe Father gives Faith in Jesus as some kind of proving ground, because Jesus was adamant that on a few would find the correct path. I do believe that the reward will be significant for the few that do make it, but for the many who squandered the gift of faith, like the talents of silver will be worth off then those who were given none. It is interesting how this little point is glossed over.


Thanks Ed,


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: [size=78%] [/size]

[eaglesway]

I have for about 30 years felt AA and the big book are more closer aligned to what the Bible and Jesus teaches than any denomination that has erupted. imo. :dsunny:

I agree with that and hav been saying that for a long time. Just the ability to be honest (confess your faults one to another) in a non-judgmental environment is huge. Try that in most churches. Prepare for counseling man, and then(if you dont shape up) expulsion.

[ed]

I agree with that and hav been saying that for a long time. Just the ability to be honest (confess your faults one to another) in a non-judgmental environment is huge. Try that in most churches. Prepare for counseling man, and then(if you dont shape up) expulsion.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.

A sound principle.

[eaglesway]

Pharoah and the Egyptians had a form of spirituality, but it was tied into the principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms. The Sanhedrin of Israel promoted themselves and unrighteously dominated and abused the people of God on the back of a form of godliness that denied the power(love) thereof.

No one would say, I dont think, that there was no difference between the Egyptians who were engulfed in the waters of the Red Sea, and the Israelites who were delivered through it.

Or for instance, that there was no difference between Noah and his house, and all those who were engulfed in the waters through which God destroyrd their world.

Yet, we know that God fundmentally loved, and loves, everyone who every lived or will live.

Humanity has wrestled with the dilemna presented by these questions forever, but I think we have to remember.....

It is God who has presented the dilemna in the first place. We are learnng from Him as individuals, and as the human race.

We are not teaching Him. He is teaching us, each in our own order, by grace through faith, to live in full union with Him.

In my opinion, the wrath of God is real. The judgments of God are real and HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATED IN THE EARTH AND AMONG THE NATIONS since the foundation of the world.

The separation that exists between belivers in Messiah and those who reject Him have been set in place by God- "to all those wh received Him He gave the right to become sons of God". There is only one name under heaven given among men whereby we may be delivered, the name of Jesus Christ. It is by this name that the anakephalaiomai(gathering together into one) is being made- Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess....... to the glory of God, the Father.

I think when we get to caught up in making distinctions about aionian judgments for the WIDE ARRAY of groups that fall outside the offer of the gospel...... those who never heard, those who rejected, those who died as little children, etc., etc, ad infinitum we get drawn back under the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

There are certain principles of justice and mercy that are OBVIOUS TO ALL. God has revealed is eternal power and divine nature THROUGH THE THINGS THAT HE HAS MADE.

I have always trusted God's justice. We can discuss and speculate over where the lines are drawn but imo, we miss the point. There are no LINES. It is the conversion of the entire creation from chaos into the ALL IN ALL of God's glorious harmony that is taking place and we know, more than any(imo) that is is an administration suitable to the fulness(completion) of times, the gathering together of all into one in Christ. Each in our own order, the totality of it far too sublime for our wee brains to encompass.

"For who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor for from Him and through Him andd to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever amen"

And no one will fall through the cracks

For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Christ and to through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross.

It is the gospel, the good news that God is reconciling all, and has already secured their reconciliation, that we declare. In this age it is the divine order of God in an administration that will require ALL OF TIME past and future to complete.

When someone receives that message, the Red Sea parts and they are delivered, NOW in THIS AGE, in a way that is not available  to anyone who has not received the blessing and passed through the water. "Whoever believes in me has passed from death into life".

As to what all is going on back there behind us, we can speculate and wonder but our mission is to proclaim the glorious gospel of God's good will towards men expressed at Calvary and fulfilled at Pentecost and live as the Master did, lights in the midst of an untoward generation, misunderstood, falsley accused and nevertheless holding fast the name of our Father and declaring that the kingdom of God is coming- Prepare the way of the Lord!

Our responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)

[micah7:9]

Excellent post :dsunny:
I especially liked, "I have always trusted God's justice. We can discuss and speculate over where the lines are drawn but imo, we miss the point. There are no LINES. It is the conversion of the entire creation from chaos into the ALL IN ALL of God's glorious harmony that is taking place and we know, more than any(imo) that is is an administration suitable to the fulness(completion) of times, the gathering together of all into one in Christ. Each in our own order, the totality of it far too sublime for our wee brains to encompass." Amen

[micah7:9]

This is just a personal thing, I just can't get past the "spiritualism" part of this post. Spiritualism is not scriptural, spiritualism is an absolute opposite of spiritual and spirituality in the Bible. When Saul went to the witch he delved in spiritualism, in my opinion. I say again I have no faith in spiritualism.

[Seth]

Our responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)

I love your post Eaglesway. There were parts where it was like I was reading Peter. Particular to your quote above, yes I agree. The Gospel is SO simple. I could probably explain it in a single sentence.

Until the questions come...

Question...after question....from well meaning people who want to believe as we do, but...what about this scripture and that one? You can tell them to just let go of all that and trust Jesus, but when they go back to their church to spread the word, and they get a barrage of scriptures out of context from their preachers, and they are left shaken, a house built on sand.

It's simple, but complex. Complex, but simple.

[JulieTang84]

This is just a personal thing, I just can't get past the "spiritualism" part of this post. Spiritualism is not scriptural, spiritualism is an absolute opposite of spiritual and spirituality in the Bible. When Saul went to the witch he delved in spiritualism, in my opinion. I say again I have no faith in spiritualism.

Micah, please do not get hung up on a word. Clearly my title was misleading. I fully understand what you are saying about the negative aspects of spiritualism. This was my mistake.

However, should you go back and reread my first post. You will see that while I fully believe that Father does give the Spirit of Peace, Kindness, Patience to many of have no concept of Jesus. I know many who call themselves spiritualists because they do not in anyway aline themselves with the "church." Many profess to believe in Jesus and by all appearances live good, clean moral lives. The whole point of the post was until Father begins to transform one in order to present to Christ, nothing is real. How many each Sunday morning lap everything up that they are told and a positive millions will burn forever. The profess their faith in Jesus and most bare Spiritual Fruit, but I doubt is Father has called them to Christ. If they were called, their hearts would turn to a Spiritual peace and an assurance that all will be saved.

Father calls and we follow. We cannot circumvent that by our own choosing.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Our responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)

I love your post Eaglesway. There were parts where it was like I was reading Peter. Particular to your quote above, yes I agree. The Gospel is SO simple. I could probably explain it in a single sentence.

Until the questions come...

Question...after question....from well meaning people who want to believe as we do, but...what about this scripture and that one? You can tell them to just let go of all that and trust Jesus, but when they go back to their church to spread the word, and they get a barrage of scriptures out of context from their preachers, and they are left shaken, a house built on sand.

It's simple, but complex. Complex, but simple.

:iagree: Eaglesway   :iagree: Seth

We are the planters, the "truth" is the seed. The hearts of each are the hard-trodden paths, the rocky barren soil and thorny outcrops. Some hearts will even be freshly tilled fertile soil, ready for planting. We are to just sow, because as Paul has said. Father knows the hearts and He will cause his truth to grow where and when he wants.  I especially feel for your words regarding "well meaning people," the world is full of them.

You know, we are to do more than just plant. We must fertilize and till the soil. Many hearts will take much tilling and much fertilizing before they are ready for planting. We do this by bearing our Spiritual fruits where ever we go, with every word we speak and do. We will know when to plant and we will know what to plant, because Jesus promised that the Spirit would give us the words to say. I think that in the haste of planting, the truth just gets blown away because the "soil" (their hearts) were not properly prepared. I believe this might take some time, but it is something that must be done.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Our responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)

I love your post Eaglesway. There were parts where it was like I was reading Peter. Particular to your quote above, yes I agree. The Gospel is SO simple. I could probably explain it in a single sentence.

Until the questions come...

Question...after question....from well meaning people who want to believe as we do, but...what about this scripture and that one? You can tell them to just let go of all that and trust Jesus, but when they go back to their church to spread the word, and they get a barrage of scriptures out of context from their preachers, and they are left shaken, a house built on sand.

It's simple, but complex. Complex, but simple.

I agree that the issues raised by well meaning and ill meaning people can be complex :o) I still say tho, OUR RESPONSIBILITY is simple. The Holy SPirit once spoke to me(let the reader discern), "I am the facilitator, you are just a witness." I have to simply and honestly bear witness to what I have seen, in the right spirit, and trust God as to the soil in the land where I sow.

I was trying to figure them out and figure it out for them. The Lord has been bringing me, personally, back to the foolishness of proclaiming. I declare the truth. I carry all the ammo I can, but I trust the Lord to penetrate the minds and the hearts. It is His plan, He is in control, its not on me to be more than I am.......just a witness to the glory to come :o)

[micah7:9]

Consider and rest in a truth, until it is time, it is not the time. There in lies my personal mired bucket of mud,(I don't know how to spell, connundrum.) WE want to, but the walls of doctrine and theology, denominations, christianity, and sects, meet us with the ferociousness of the love(which by interpretation is your going to eternal torment because you don't believe in a place of eternal torment for the deeds/works of your life) this, which they have been taught, and those sitting in that building, probably, have never picked up the Word, to see if the oracle behind their pulpit even understands or has reasoned what the Bible and a Lord God of Love represents.

I do believe, and have for many years, have become rested in Him,(with all my get up and want which at times had set me in a self embarrassed position in front of christians, which I have now ceased from doing) that when the Time arises, those who know the Truth about the Love of the Savior, will be heard.  :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Consider and rest in a truth, until it is time, it is not the time. There in lies my personal mired bucket of mud,(I don't know how to spell, connundrum.) WE want to, but the walls of doctrine and theology, denominations, christianity, and sects, meet us with the ferociousness of the love(which by interpretation is your going to eternal torment because you don't believe in a place of eternal torment for the deeds/works of your life) this, which they have been taught, and those sitting in that building, probably, have never picked up the Word, to see if the oracle behind their pulpit even understands or has reasoned what the Bible and a Lord God of Love represents.

I do believe, and have for many years, have become rested in Him,(with all my get up and want which at times had set me in a self embarrassed position in front of christians, which I have now ceased from doing) that when the Time arises, those who know the Truth about the Love of the Savior, will be heard.  :dsunny:

Sounds just like what Jesus ran up against :o)

[shawn]

I have for about 30 years felt AA and the big book are more closer aligned to what the Bible and Jesus teaches than any denomination that has erupted. imo. :dsunny:

The first time I truly felt God through people was in the rooms of AA.  They loved me just the way I was with no judgment...and they did so until I could love myself.

[shawn]

Weird thread.

AA teaches the overcoming of a spiritual problem, with a spiritual path, IE the God of your understanding.

Would you conciser this another path if the believer does indeed find a spiritual path that enables him to serve others and overcome substance abuse?  It seems to bring one to the same place as a faith in Christ.

Is it God "Father" working in the individual even though they have not chosen Christianity because of whatever bias they may have?

I say yes it is.  There is only one God, and the very same God that works in the Christian to overcome sin is working in the Alcoholic to overcome addiction.

Now you may be able to say it is just faith.

If you have never read Alcohol Anonymous the big book, I recommend it.  It lays out a faith in God identical to Christianity without the Christian verbiage.  I have met some very spiritual individuals who are not Christians.

The foundation of AA is Christian principles, founded after the Oxford group.  The terms Higher Power and God of our understanding came into play in order to be inclusive rather than exclusive.  You have many people come into those rooms spiritually bankrupt...void of anything resembling God in their life.  Then something wonderful happens, they begin speaking about this relationship with a Higher Power.  This relationship changes their lives.  Some go on to put a specific denomination onto their relationship...begin going to church.  Some don't.  But, it's hard to argue that God doesn't move in those rooms, and perform daily miracles that I get to see with my own eyes.  It's beautiful.

[ed]

I agree that the issues raised by well meaning and ill meaning people can be complex :o) I still say tho, OUR RESPONSIBILITY is simple. The Holy SPirit once spoke to me(let the reader discern), "I am the facilitator, you are just a witness." I have to simply and honestly bear witness to what I have seen, in the right spirit, and trust God as to the soil in the land where I sow.

I was trying to figure them out and figure it out for them. The Lord has been bringing me, personally, back to the foolishness of proclaiming. I declare the truth. I carry all the ammo I can, but I trust the Lord to penetrate the minds and the hearts. It is His plan, He is in control, its not on me to be more than I am.......just a witness to the glory to come :o)

Even an apostate can do it........or can't help but do it.
Wrote in this thread today:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20929538#post20929538

.

[JulieTang84]

Great resd

Do we need any further proof that Father has blinded many and good. They're not blind of their own choosing, so how can they see any other?

We're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

We're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.

It's definitely not "we" vs "them." I see it more as we FOR them. But soon enough all will be swallowed up in Life.

[jabcat]

We're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.

Hi Julie.  Can you show me chapter and verse on this?  Because there are many scriptures that would say differently, and in fact, draw very clear distinctions - still, it's not malicious, it's as Seth said...not hating, but loving and helping when possible (Rom. 12:8) - but still knowing the difference

[JulieTang84]

We're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.

Hi Julie.  Can you show me chapter and verse on this?  Because there are many scriptures that would say differently, and in fact, draw very clear distinctions - still, it's not malicious, it's as Seth said...not hating, but loving and helping when possible (Rom. 12:8) - but still knowing the difference
[/quote

Jhn 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Jhn 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

No I and THEM there James. I do not see myself better than anyone. Do you? Paul said he was the greatest sinner and I am sure deserving of nothing. The sooner we Love each as Father loves all of His children THE BETTER FOR ALL.

Love Julie :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

we must be talking about 2 different things then...i don't seeing Jesus saying there isn't a difference between those that are His and those that yet don't know Him - or even hate Him and are filled with all things of the world, i.e.  'us' and 'them' if you want to call it that (I don't use that particular phrase myself, but the scriptures distinguish it clearly)...again, not us VERSUS them - but a difference.  In fact, I'd say the scriptures say clearly, that if there's NOT a difference, then something's very wrong.

I Cor. 6:  9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[jabcat]

If someone's talking about being better than someone else, I missed it...I didn't think that was the point of "lose the I and them" as you said, but maybe that's what you mean rather than there being a difference, and it being able to be known..thanks

[JulieTang84]

But not so we can stand and point fingers :mock:
D
There are two lives at play here James. One physical and the other Spiritual.

There as many walls that divided in the former but none in the latter.

Love covers a multitude of sins.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

ANY ONE WANT A NOT SO SMART, SMART PHONE  :sigh:

[jabcat]

But not so we can stand and point fingers :mock:

There is two lives at play here James. One physical and the other Spiritual.

There as many weeks that divider in the former but none in the latter.

Was anyone talking about pointing fingers?  I didn't see that.

If you're saying everyone's spirit or spiritual condition are the same (no division) then I disagree.  I don't believe the scriptures support that - in fact, very much the opposite

[jabcat]

Paul talked about (correctly) judging matters within the ecclesia [differences]

Jesus said one can know by another's attitude and actions

Paul also said to examine ourselves.

You know who I'm better than?

My old self - before Christ, completely walking in the flesh.   Can I still slip and fall?  Absolutely. But by His grace and mercy (in the words of a song) I'm not what I want to be, but thank God I'm not what I was... :)