Can one be Spiritually "alive" without Faith?
Jam 2:17-26
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessfn?
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
What is being stated here is that one can quite certainly do many acts of love, kindness in fact baring ALL the fruit of the Spirit and have NO FAITH. Whereas, one CANNOT have FAITH and DO NOTHING.
This sounds logical in and of itself, but does raise the question: Can someone be Spiritually "alive" producing spiritual fruits (works) but have no "professed" Faith? One might quickly answer "NO!!!," but is this correct?
Well certainly John makes it clear that every single person ever born has been enlightened by a measure of Spirit (Christ) Jhn 1:9 That [Jesus] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
So the point could be made that "any" goodness must be the result of the "light" that is combating the "darkness" of then each person was born with. How else can one explain the many: kind, loving and caring peoples throughout the world. Surely such people as doctors and service men and women all do so because of need to fulfill some "need." Such people might even instruct their children in what is right and wrong. Many might even be active in their communities and even go to church; professing their faith in Jesus.
Yet, we know Jesus will say to some: 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Evildoers? Seems a little harsh. Jesus often spoke in extremes: saying once - "If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple"
Which is on face value a TOTAL CONTRADICTION of what He said here: "honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Mat 19:19) Clearly "Hate" means "Love Less" which is in alinement with Jesus's 1st and 2nd Commandments.
So what did Jesus mean when he called those who bore Spiritual Fruit: Evil Doers!
Well this is where the study becomes interesting?
Jesus gave great importance in the belief of WHO He is. Saying: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:18
Condemned for doing good; for caring, loving and protecting? Yes, but it is not the "What" they did, but the "Why."
Jesus asks: "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?" and responds with: "Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:46, 47
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (John 6:37)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44)
"... no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." ( John 6:65)
When read in context the phrase "come to me" is spoken in the same breath as the word "faith". It is a synonym. Likewise the phrase "draws him" is used in parallel with the phrase "gives me" or "granted him". Jesus declares that "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. (John 6:44) and "All that the Father gives me [draws to Me] will come to me." (John 6:37). In other words, the passage simply states that no one will trust in or have faith in Jesus unless Father grants it (John 6:65), and ALL to whom Father grants (or gives/draws to Jesus) will believe. Not some of them, but all of them. This means that we must conclude that all that Father draws to Jesus infallibly come to faith in him.
Faith, Jesus is saying, is not a product of our human natures (no matter how much love and help is given;) It is, rather, the product of new life that only Father can give us through the quickening work of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit alone who unites us to Christ, bringing "new" life to our suspended souls so that we may believe.
Jesus affirms this same truth to Nicodemus, saying: "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'' (john 3:7) Telling him: "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:5) Many fail to realize that Jesus is not "commanding" Nicodemus to be "born again," but rather what must happen. Faith is MORE than a belief, it is rather Spirit given Knowledge. A knowledge that is far superior than any "learned" knowledge as verified by Jesus himself: 'When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith." Mat 8:10
So, can one be Spiritually "alive" without Faith? No!! Because TRUE FAITH can only exist in a reborn New (SPIRITUAL) Life, something that is gifted from Father. Paul says: "For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you." Rom 12:3
There is much to conclude from this study:
1. Faith is ever so much more than saying: "I love you Jesus"
2. Faith cannot be measured by works: While Faith produces Works, Works DO NOT produce Faith
3. Brothers, sisters, family members are not responsible for the Faith they have or have not.
4. Evildoers, does not necessarily mean "Evil Acts" rather one not gifted with Faith
5. Not a SINGLE PERSON is RESPONSIBLE for the FAITH given them
6. Spirit is in a "suspended" state until called to Action by Father.
7. Hope without Faith is no more than a pipe-dream.
8. Love without Faith is little more than a shadow of the Love of a Spirit filled Heart.
I have know idea where all this came from :Chinscratch: I just started typing and the words just flowed. I hope who ever reads this get's as much out of as I did writing it.
Much Love, Julie :HeartThrob:
I agree with much of what you say, but there are a few things IMO, that bear more digging. Good things to look into, for sure. Such as the light in every man..there's nothing (of matter, including every human) in the world that doesn't have some remnant of God in it, because He created all that there is through His Son.
These scrips might help;
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works... and I Jn 1:12 .. to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--
p.s. I believe God can use or work through anything or anybody He chooses. However, on the whole, I don't believe that necessarily spells redemption, justification, or having been given the faith to believe on Jesus, which the scriptures say must occur through faith, all the gift of God - according to His timing and choosing.
For instance; I personally don't understand spirituality in and of itself to be a stand-alone proposition. John says there are all types of spirits, many types at work in the world. Many are antiChrist (denying Christ). It's a difficult task, but we're also told by John to not believe every spirit and to test the spirits to see if they are of God.
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2014, 04:21:42 AM
p.s. I believe God can use or work through anything or anybody He chooses. However, on the whole, I don't believe that necessarily spells redemption, justification, or having been given the faith to believe on Jesus, which the scriptures say must occur through faith, all the gift of God - according to His timing and choosing.
For instance; I personally don't understand spirituality in and of itself to be a stand-alone proposition. John says there are all types of spirits, many types at work in the world. Many are antiChrist (denying Christ). It's a difficult task, but we're also told by John to not believe every spirit and to test the spirits to see if they are of God.
Thanks James. Let me clarify Spirit. To me there is only one Holy Spirit and that is of Father of which is LIGHT. Concerning the union of God and man, and the knowledge of God that this brings, Jesus said, "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you" (John 16:13-15). This knowledge of Father and sets apart his children The rest of the world is in darkness and cannot comprehend Father in any way.
Paul talks of this knowledge of the things of God that come from the union of ones reborn self with the Spirit of God: "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit: "For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God" (1 Cor. 2:10-12).
Before I answer regarding "Testing" the spirits, I will ask you James, how do you test them?
But as promised, I will answer. First, reread the above paragraph beginning with: "Paul talks of this knowledge...." and pay particular attention to:
"Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God"Can any spirit not of LIGHT bring a TRUTH that is laced with such a profound Peace and an unquestionable Assurance? A Truth that is not an UNDERSTANDING and certainly not a BELIEF, but a KNOWLEDGE that is SO PROFOUND that it cannot be explained.
You may not agree with what I am about to say, but the "profound peace" and "unquestionable Assurance" is to me the greatest Testimony that the knowledge has come from the Spirit of Father. My reasoning is quite sound.
Let us consider that the Spirit of Darkness can grant such Inner Peace and Assurance (which I KNOW is not true), then KISS the reborn New Life away, because it clearly cannot be trusted and Paul was WRONG when he said the following:
"Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God" because the given knowledge is NO DIFFERENT than Satan would give.
Father, please forgive me for even suggesting such a thing.
You see darkness cannot emit Light and Fathers Truth will never be found in darkness. The Peace and Assurance are known because of ABSOLUTE Light and Truth. Such Knowledge becomes as part as one as ones, eyes, skin and shape. One could no easier discard it than they could discard a leg. I say all of this without the mention of Scripture for a VERY good reason.
There is a HUGE problem with Scripture and it is to do with just one thing: Understanding. Knowledge fromSpirit is not based on understanding. Spirit is not Understanding and neither Understanding, Spirit. Therefore, Scripture can be read and Verification (as if it is needed) is instantly ratified, even to the point of "seeing" something totally different than previously understood. I am sure you have had such moments. The Holy Spirit works silently to those without ears to hear. As if I hear everything, but this is what I have found. The brighter the Spirit shines in me, the Darker the darkness; making an untruth standout. I believe this is what is meant when Satan grows desperate because he knows he is running out of time.
This is why Peace and Assurance, which I have not said are just aspects of PURE LOVE bare the greatest testimony to Spiritual Truth, so that we can KNOW what is given is True.
Thank you Father.....
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I think, and started to add it to my post, that testing the spirits would probably be a really good study and thread - and we'd probably get about 50 different answers :). I personally pray about things, try to sense the Spirit of Christ, and check things with the scriptures. And sometimes I miss it - thinking I've really heard from the Lord, when among possible other things, it was my own imagination.
Here's something to weigh; "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". 2 Cor. 11:14
Some of the first things satan said to man was, "did God really say.. surely [paraphrase] that's not true..."
Julie, can I ask a few questions before the thread goes a lot further? Are you searching for an answer on this topic, or are you already pretty confident in your stance and basically making the case that people absolutely can be in fellowship with God, already His children, no matter what religion they're in - or no matter whether they believe in God or Jesus and have trusted Him as Savior? That if they have "love", that proves they are filled with God and "on the right path"?
I believe I'm personally influenced by many things. Some of it helpful, some of it not so much. :( Do you think it possible that any of what you believe is influenced by writers, speakers, and various non-Christ-based religious/philosophical leaders (Ghandi, Buddha, etc., and their various disciples) that could affect conclusions you draw about scriptural and spiritual issues? Is there anything here to consider? Thanks.
"Julie, can I ask a few questions before the thread goes a lot further? Are you searching for an answer on this topic, or are you already pretty confident in your stance...."
The answer is...."you already pretty confident in your stance...." :2c:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 03:29:05 AM
So what did Jesus mean when he called those who bore Spiritual Fruit: Evil Doers!
It is my opinion that Jesus is talking to the sectarians who do not have Christ as Lord. Their doctrines are their lord.
Lots or ways to be caught up in doctrine rather then the simplicity of the gospel.
Heresy=sectarian=party spirit.
I find the main culprit in the deviding of the church into sects, is "The Bible is the only rule for faith and practice".
All the sects seem to use the Bible as their proof for their sectarianism.
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Just what is "Spiritualism"? I find spirit and spiritual in the Bible but I have failed to find "spiritualism" could this be another theological man definition created rabbit trail concocted by man to offer more confusion by men who have the tendency to create their own deepness to explain the simplicity of Jesus the Savoir of the world? I, myself would reason so. :Peace2: Yeah it's an opinion. :dsunny:
Quote from: ed on January 13, 2014, 07:34:10 AM
I find the main culprit in the deviding of the church into sects, is "The Bible is the only rule for faith and practice".
All the sects seem to use the Bible as their proof for their sectarianism.
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ed, would you consider the possibility that the real problem isn't strongly believing and adhering to the scriptures (translated as accurately as possible, interpreted/revealed by the Holy Spirit), but rather, ignorance (blindness, lack of understanding, poor translation) perhaps more importantly coupled with a haughty, self-righteous, unloving (even hate full) attitude?
on the other end of the spectrum - do you believe there could be a problem (extremely slippery slope) with someone believing whatever came along, whatever felt best, whatever might be imagined by the mind of man, without any solid, sound, GODLY point of reference? So inundated with philosophies of man, that the truth actually becomes elusive and there's instead a mish-mash of irreconcilable delusion? ("Your word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path".)
Although a respect for and considered reliability of the scriptures (accurately translated, rightly divided, Spirit-revealed) is a default setting at TM and not a matter of ongoing discussion/debate, I did also want to quickly mention this as connected to your post; I believe it's possible that many folks/groups may indeed leave out the leading of the Spirit of God, and by far mostly
only rely on WHAT THEY UNDERSTAND of what is written. If so, hardness can enter in (or in extremes, was likely there to begin with, thus the absence or rejecting of the Holy Spirit). On the other hand (scenario 2 above), if no true point of reference, the mind of man can imagine and be harmfully influenced by all sorts of things ("there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction"). So I just find and believe the true Spirit of God and His written Word will never contradict.
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2014, 05:47:48 AM
Julie, can I ask a few questions before the thread goes a lot further? Are you searching for an answer on this topic, or are you already pretty confident in your stance and basically making the case that people absolutely can be in fellowship with God, already His children, no matter what religion they're in - or no matter whether they believe in God or Jesus and have trusted Him as Savior? That if they have "love", that proves they are filled with God and "on the right path"?
I believe I'm personally influenced by many things. Some of it helpful, some of it not so much. :( Do you think it possible that any of what you believe is influenced by writers, speakers, and various non-Christ-based religious/philosophical leaders (Ghandi, Buddha, etc., and their various disciples) that could affect conclusions you draw about scriptural and spiritual issues? Is there anything here to consider? Thanks.
At one time I would have said yes everyone can have a relationship with Christ regardless, BUT NO LONGER. Father showed me with this lesson that ONLY those called to Christ by Father, can have a relationship with him. This does not restrict one from knowing right from wrong and gives credence to the words of Jesus of those whom little was given, little shall be expected. I am sure Father will be well pleased with those who have done very well worth so little.
Bottom line, no one comes to Christ or has Faith until Father draws them to Jesus.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2014, 08:26:20 AM
ed, would you consider the possibility that the real problem isn't strongly believing and adhering to the scriptures (translated as accurately as possible, interpreted/revealed by the Holy Spirit), but rather, ignorance (blindness, lack of understanding, poor translation) perhaps more importantly coupled with a haughty, self-righteous, unloving (even hate full) attitude?
Yes, I would say that the masses are ignorant of what the pulpit is shoveling. I find that even in the the midst of the divided church, Christ still works within every sect. Let the wheat grow with the tares.
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2014, 08:26:20 AM
on the other end of the spectrum - do you believe there could be a problem (extremely slippery slope) with someone believing whatever came along, whatever felt best, whatever might be imagined by the mind of man, without any solid, sound, GODLY point of reference? So inundated with philosophies of man, that the truth actually becomes elusive and there's instead a mish-mash of irreconcilable delusion? ("Your word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path".)
What must every thought line with?
1 Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Even the apostles were divided.
1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Saved by fire seems to line up with the separating or sheep and goats.
Quote from: jabcat on January 13, 2014, 08:26:20 AM
Although a respect for and considered reliability of the scriptures (accurately translated, rightly divided, Spirit-revealed) is a default setting at TM and not a matter of ongoing discussion/debate, I did also want to quickly mention this as connected to your post; I believe it's possible that many folks/groups may indeed leave out the leading of the Spirit of God, and by far mostly only rely on WHAT THEY UNDERSTAND of what is written. If so, hardness can enter in (or in extremes, was likely there to begin with, thus the absence or rejecting of the Holy Spirit). On the other hand (scenario 2 above), if no true point of reference, the mind of man can imagine and be harmfully influenced by all sorts of things ("there's a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction"). So I just find and believe the true Spirit of God and His written Word will never contradict.
I guess we must see through glass darkly until we are know even as we are known. No way around it. A person can do themselves harm by not paying attention to their exact calling. There is growth in controversy. It may not seem pleasant at the time, but the end is godliness. Still learning to swim here.
Ed
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
Bottom line, no one comes to Christ or has Faith until Father draws them to Jesus.
Faith and faith in Christ are two different things.
Faith works for saint and sinner alike. I've heard it called a few different things. The law of believing, the law of attraction..............are a few.
Now if you are talking about having a faith relationship with Christ, I think I would tend to agree.
.
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Quote from: ed on January 13, 2014, 03:26:48 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 03:05:03 PM
Bottom line, no one comes to Christ or has Faith until Father draws them to Jesus.
Faith and faith in Christ are two different things.
Faith works for saint and sinner alike. I've heard it called a few different things. The law of believing, the law of attraction..............are a few.
Now if you are talking about having a faith relationship with Christ, I think I would tend to agree.
.
.
My bad :doh: Should have been TRUE SPIRITUAL FAITH in Christ.
Thanks for catching thst.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Has God limited "himself" to having a relationship with mankind to the preached word? "Faith come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God"?
I must admit that I had a spiritual experience with God before I became a Christian. I ran to the Bible after the experience, but it would seem that the relationship was started before doctrinal knowledge. The real relationship was God initiated with my seeking be rewarded with finding.
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 06:53:40 AM
"Julie, can I ask a few questions before the thread goes a lot further? Are you searching for an answer on this topic, or are you already pretty confident in your stance...."
The answer is...."you already pretty confident in your stance...." :2c:
Just using what Father had placed in my heart. My mind has nothing to do with it, as It is not an understanding, but a given. I am merely sharing and am excited to hear what Father has given others to know.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Many years ago I had a realization that changed my life. The realization caused me to dig deeper into my faith and what it stands on. I was in prayer and meditation, as I walked through my day. I said "Lord" something something, and immediately I heard in my mind "I am not your Lord, your doctrines are your Lord".
I had been in relationship to Christ for over a decade when this happened. I took this as reproof and I started looking for the correction. A decade later, my faith has changed in many ways. I feel that it is healthy to allow faith to change. This is not what the sectarian church teaches.
Quote from: ed on January 13, 2014, 04:40:12 PM
Many years ago I had a realization that changed my life. The realization caused me to dig deeper into my faith and what it stands on. I was in prayer and meditation, as I walked through my day. I said "Lord" something something, and immediately I heard in my mind "I am not your Lord, your doctrines are your Lord".
I had been in relationship to Christ for over a decade when this happened. I took this as reproof and I started looking for the correction. A decade later, my faith has changed in many ways. I feel that it is healthy to allow faith to change. This is not what the sectarian church teaches.
Ed, please explain: "I am not your Lord, your doctrines are your Lord. I am most interested hearing what you have to say.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
QuoteJames: Here's something to weigh; "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". 2 Cor. 11:14
Absolutely. Satan can and does preach a different message so that many are decieved. But Satan cannot bring peace, and neither can be bring an assurance of unquestionable truth.
Jesus said that those with eyes to see and ears to hear, will indeed hear and see the truth and know it for what it is. He said this referring to the Spirit. I am sure it will not bode well with Father if even is Spirit is dismissed (buried like the talents of silver) because of lack of faith.
No offence meant our implied. Honest. :friendstu:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTangThis sounds logical in and of itself, but does raise the question: Can someone be Spiritually "alive" producing spiritual fruits (works) but have no "professed" Faith? One might quickly answer "NO!!!," but is this correct?
Hi Julie,
To answer the question in the OP, nobody can be spiritually alive without literal belief in the propositions (the statements or assertions) set forth in the Bible about Jesus Christ. In other words, even if a Buddhist is a really loving person, if they do not believe the propositions set forth, then they are not acting in accordance with the Spirit, but are having their OWN righteousness, which is as dirty rags.
Paul admonishes the church this way:
Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. Paul is indeed verifying the necessity to do things in WORD, and in DEED, but is adding that whatever they do should be done in the name of Christ....giving thanks to God through Christ. Paul does this himself:
1 Cor 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.Paul labored. Yes, he knew that faith is much more than saying "I love you Jesus," however he did things in the name of Jesus by giving due credit. So, he says "I labored....yet not I but grace of God that was with me.
Can a Buddhist give thanks to God for his own works? Or does he credit himself? That matters because Paul says that no man may boast. It's not even just that no man SHOULD boast. No man MAY boast. The possibility is out. So if anyone literally credits themselves for their works, it shows they are having their own righteousness, which is dirty rags. Without faith, we cannot please God.
John 20:28-29
28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."You see, Jesus is saying that Thomas believed because Thomas said "my Lord and my God." He literally said those words.
John 14:12-14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; Here is where the rubber means the road. Christ is not now excepting the idea that faith has an intellectual belief component. Rather, he is ADDING works to the faith to make the faith complete. He is verifying that Faith and Works are not the same thing, but that works are to be ADDED to faith to make faith complete. Faith is a matter of loyalty, not just in works, but in believing the words that Christ says about himself.
That's why Jesus says:
Mark 16:15-16
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes...and is baptized.....will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. If you are asking if people can be baptized in the Spirit without believing the Gospel, I would say that the Bible is pretty clear that the answer is no. Baptism in the Spirit comes AFTER one believes the Gospel, which is why those who appear to be "spiritually alive (works)" are not actually alive to God because they have not believed in the Son, and therefore follow after false gods.
It's not a matter of belief alone, but baptism too, for we are saved by his LIFE. Without going into too much detail, I believe Jesus is speaking about receiving the Holy Spirit, not baptism in water. So, Christ is saying, that baptism in the spirit FOLLOWS literal belief. They go hand in hand, and the Spirit is what does the saving work.
Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.Here, Jesus is saying, two things: REPENT....and.....believe the Gospel. Have Buddhists repented of worshipping buddha? Do they believe the Gospel? The Gospel says that JESUS IS LORD. They must believe the Gospel if they are to be spiritually alive.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.It's not just a matter of believing Christ existed long ago. As many as RECEIVED him, he gave power to become sons of God. Do Buddhists receive Christ, but deny his Lordship? Do they deny Christ's words about himself?
If not, then they have no spiritual life apart from belief in Christ:
Romans 10:9-10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead....Here are all the propositions we must believe:
1. Believe that Christ IS (not only that he WAS)
2. Believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
3. Believe the Gospel (therefore that Christ is Lord), along with repenting
4. Believe on his name, along with receiving himThe Son of God is not Buddha, nor Muhammad, nor Great Spirit, or Krishna. God has one Son, who is Jesus the Messiah, the name above all names, and anyone who pleases God must believe that Jesus Christ IS (present tense).
regarding...I never knew you..away from me ye evildoers.
Matthew 10;33 and Luke 12;9....denying the name of Jesus Christ before men......
Rev. 2;13 and 3;8 Mark 13;6 many will come in my name claiming,'I AM he" and deceive many.
false christ's.messiah's
Mt 24;24
QuoteSeth:Hi Julie,
To answer the question in the OP, nobody can be spiritually alive without literal belief in the propositions (the statements or assertions) set forth in the Bible about Jesus Christ. In other words, even if a Buddhist is a really loving person, if they do not believe the propositions set forth, then they are not acting in accordance with the Spirit, but are having their OWN righteousness, which is as dirty rags.
I am afraid I do not understand your use of the term "literal." Do you mean standing in front of an alter and processing ones faith in Jesus. If so, then I am very sorry to say that you are mistaken. Simple Words mean nothing unless they come from a spirit filled heart by the will of Father. Satan uses wordd and blind and deaf (spiritual) people eat them up like their lives depend on them.
You must realize, that one cannot choose NOT TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus., when Father draws one to Him. It is a done deal. Those who reject Jesus, no matter how strongly do so because they simply do not have the faith gifted to turn the other way. The also can be said for the kind and loving Hindu, etc.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTangI am afraid I do not understand your use of the term "literal." Do you mean standing in front of an alter and processing ones faith in Jesus. If so, then I am very sorry to say that you are mistaken. Simple Words mean nothing unless they come from a spirit filed heart by the will of Father. Satan uses word and blind and deaf (spiritual) east them up like their lives depend on them.
I am talking about literal belief as opposed to the idea that belief can be expressed through good works without actual belief in the propositions I outlined through scripture. Thank you for asking me to clarify. People must actually believe the Gospel, and must actually believe that Jesus Christ IS, and that he was raised from the dead.
They cannot believe otherwise and have spiritual life.
Quote from: JulieTangYou must realize, that one cannot choose NOT TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus., when Father draws one to Him. It is a done deal. Those who reject Jesus, no matter how strongly do so because they simply do not have the faith gifted to turn the other way. The sms can be said for the mind and loving Hindu, etc.
No disagreement, but Romans 9 shows that even though God is in control, he can still judge them as he did Pharaoh. Pharaoh did not resist God's will, but got punished anyway. He is the Potter, we are the clay. In fact, all Egypt was plagued because God hardened one man's heart and then judged them all for it.
All those who God has drawn to Christ will reveal their state of being drawn by believing that Christ is, and that he was raised from the dead, and will believe the Gospel that Paul brought.
Do you believe that NO ONE can TRULY believe until Gifted with the Spirit to do so? With out Fathers intervention the words are empty literally of Spirit.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 07:06:58 PM
Do you believe that NO ONE can TRULY believe until Gifted with the Spirit to do so? With our Fathers intervention the words are empty literally of Spirit.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
What I believe is that God GIVES the faith (to believe the Gospel and that Christ is and was raised from the dead) > then he gives the Spirit > then by the Spirit people confess, and works follow.
Quote from: Seth on January 13, 2014, 07:08:25 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 07:06:58 PM
Do you believe that NO ONE can TRULY believe until Gifted with the Spirit to do so? With our Fathers intervention the words are empty literally of Spirit.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
What I believe is that God GIVES the faith (to believe the Gospel and that Christ is and was raised from the dead) > then he gives the Spirit > then by the Spirit people confess, and works follow.
Do you believe that until Father draws one to Christ, Christ cannot and does not receive them to himself. No matter how earnest the words sound.
Love julie
I do believe that God draws one to Christ but Christ says "I will in no way cast them out." So, again, God gives the faith to believe, then he also gives the Spirit. I do not believe he gives the Spirit without the belief.
That's why Jesus says "preach the Gospel, whoever believes....and is baptized...."
Quote from: Seth on January 13, 2014, 07:22:04 PM
I do believe that God draws one to Christ but Christ says "I will in no way cast them out." So, again, God gives the faith to believe, then he also gives the Spirit. I do not believe he gives the Spirit without the belief.
That's why Jesus says "preach the Gospel, whoever believes....and is baptized...."
Paul was not a believer was he? One can not believe until faith is given to do so. This comes from Father, not Jesus I posted at least Scriptures that prove this is true.
Thanks for your quick response.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Man cannot choose his destiny.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 07:29:33 PM
Paul was not a believer was he? One can not believe until faith is given to do so. This comes from Father, not Jesus I posted at least Scriptures that prove this is true.
I never disagreed that God is sovereign over belief. I am simply saying that belief is necessary unto spiritual life.
QuoteThanks for your quick response.
:Peace2:
QuoteMan cannot choose his destiny.
No disagreement. But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life. Not sure if you disagree with that or not, but if you do, you aren't saying so outright. You seem to keep pointing to God's sovereignty, but I have been confirming it. So where is this progressing.
God is sovereign over who believes. But belief is necessary for spiritual life to occur.
"You must realize, that one cannot choose NOT TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus., when Father draws one to Him. It is a done deal. Those who reject Jesus, no matter how strongly do so because they simply do not have the faith gifted to turn the other way. The also can be said for the kind and loving Hindu, etc." (Julie)
I guarantee with absolute Truth, when the Father draws one to Jesus there is no rejection strongly or weakly, it may take awhile, but that "while" is HIS WHILE and that while is not rejection, it's His process.
One can reject His commandments and His knowledge, but when the Father drags one to Jesus that person will come. :dsunny:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 04:33:03 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 06:53:40 AM
"Julie, can I ask a few questions before the thread goes a lot further? Are you searching for an answer on this topic, or are you already pretty confident in your stance...."
The answer is...."you already pretty confident in your stance...." :2c:
Just using what Father had placed in my heart. My mind has nothing to do with it, as It is not an understanding, but a given. I am merely sharing and am excited to hear what Father has given others to know.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
"Just using what
Father had placed in my heart. My mind has nothing to do with it, as It is not an understanding, but a given. I am merely sharing and am excited to hear what Father has given others to know.
Love Julie "
You do realize that "heart and mind" are the same. Jer 17:9 The heart
(mind) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Gen 6:5 And Jehovah seeth that abundant is the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
(mind) only evil all the day;
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart
(mind) to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.
Repent- to have a change of mind, thinking. :Peace2:
Seth wrote:
But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life.
I belive the Exact opposite
But man must have faith given by Spirit to be able to believe.
Eph 1:18-20
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power .
Love Julie
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 13, 2014, 07:36:51 PM
"You must realize, that one cannot choose NOT TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus., when Father draws one to Him. It is a done deal. Those who reject Jesus, no matter how strongly do so because they simply do not have the faith gifted to turn the other way. The also can be said for the kind and loving Hindu, etc." (Julie)
I guarantee with absolute Truth, when the Father draws one to Jesus there is no rejection strongly or weakly, it may take awhile, but that "while" is HIS WHILE and that while is not rejection, it's His process.
One can reject His commandments and His knowledge, but when the Father drags one to Jesus that person will come. :dsunny:
Good point.
I am apostate, but am arguing the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation on another board. Why? Because I can. I believe that God works through Christianity. It is doctrine that keeps the sheep in chains. Doctrine from the pulpit. God can even use an apostate to preach His word. Ironic.
.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 08:05:04 PM
Seth wrote:
But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life.
I belive the Exact opposite
But man must have faith given by Spirit to be able to believe.
Eph 1:18-20
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power .
Love Julie
The scripture you provided does not show that a man may have spiritual life apart from belief.
It literally says:"pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power
for us who believe."The DARKENED heart must be enlightened, not the spiritual heart. The heart which is in darkness must be given faith by God to believe and BECOME a spiritual heart.
Pro 20:27 The breath of man is a lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the inner parts of the heart.
Quote from: Seth on January 13, 2014, 08:09:48 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 08:05:04 PM
Seth wrote:
But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life.
I belive the Exact opposite
But man must have faith given by Spirit to be able to believe.
Eph 1:18-20
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,
The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power .
Love Julie
The scripture you provided does not show that a man may have spiritual life apart from belief.
It literally says:
"pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe."
The DARKENED heart must be enlightened, not the spiritual heart. The heart which is in darkness must be given faith by God to believe and BECOME a spiritual heart.
WHOA!!!!!! I never said anyone could have a spiritual filled outside of Christ.
Please go back and read read my first post as I think you missed it. :friendstu:
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I didn't say, "outside of Christ."
I said "outside of belief"
The heart which is in darkness must be given faith by God to believe and BECOME a spiritual heart.
You must have belief to be spiritually filled.
Seth what does these words day to you:
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (John 6:37)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe
...And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:63, 65).
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
The father draws them, but not through an indwelling of the Spirit. That is the assumptive leap that I believe you are making. God causes them to believe > THEN he gives them the Holy Spirit.
I believe we have some wires crossed. :friendstu:
I do not know or even pretend to understand why Father chooses to give spiritual/ Faith to one and not the other.
Yes Father gives Faith in order for one to truly believe, thus drawing them to Christ who will never let them go.
Seth I have never stated anything other than this throughout the entire thread.
Love Julie
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1)
This is the born again result of Fathers gifting faith and bringing to life a spiritual heart dedicated to Christ.
Up until then, they are speaking empty words.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 08:53:08 PM
I believe we have some wires crossed. :friendstu:
I do not know or even pretend to understand why Father chooses to give spiritual/ Faith to one and not the other.
Yes Father gives Faith in order for one to truly believe, thus drawing them to Christ who will never let them go.
Seth I have never stated anything other than this throughout the entire thread.
Love Julie
Hi Julie, To clarify the below:
"The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power ."
What I would say is that there is no such thing a spiritual heart wherein there is no actual belief that Christ was raised from the dead. Plainly speaking those who follow Buddha but deny Christ's lordship through the Gospel in their system of belief do not have a spiritual heart which must THEN be enlightened.
They are enlightened and will have a spiritual heart when they place their belief in Christ within their heart that God raised him from the dead, be filled with the Spirit, and works will follow, such as putting away false gods.
If we have no disagreement on that, then cool!
Spiritualism 1) the belief that the dead survive as spirits which can communicate with the living, esp. with the help of a third party (medium). 2) the philosophical doctrine that all
reality is in essence spiritual.
I, that's me personally, have no faith in spiritualism, nor have any desire to. :dsunny:
And I am sure that is not what you all are discussing, but that is what spiritualism is and to me it is just the slight of hand by religious theology to muddy the word Spirit.
Micah please know that I have no interest in the spirituism you speak of either.
Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
All I am trying to say that this comes from Father, and no one else.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Sorry Seth missed your post. NO DISAGREEMENT :friendstu:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 13, 2014, 09:44:04 PM
Micah please know that I have no interest in the spirituism you speak of either.
Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
All I am trying to say that this comes from Father, and no one else.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I understand, but the post reads "Spiritualism without Faith." I just posted the definition of the word
spiritualism.
Julie requested the thread title be changed to Spiritualism without Faith - A Lie! So hopefully further posts will show up under that heading...
Quote from: jabcat on January 14, 2014, 12:10:29 AM
Julie requested the thread title be changed to Spiritualism without Faith - A Lie! So hopefully further posts will show up under that heading...
Are those not the same words? Just wondering.
Weird thread.
AA teaches the overcoming of a spiritual problem, with a spiritual path, IE the God of your understanding.
Would you conciser this another path if the believer does indeed find a spiritual path that enables him to serve others and overcome substance abuse? It seems to bring one to the same place as a faith in Christ.
Is it God "Father" working in the individual even though they have not chosen Christianity because of whatever bias they may have?
I say yes it is. There is only one God, and the very same God that works in the Christian to overcome sin is working in the Alcoholic to overcome addiction.
Now you may be able to say it is just faith.
If you have never read Alcohol Anonymous the big book, I recommend it. It lays out a faith in God identical to Christianity without the Christian verbiage. I have met some very spiritual individuals who are not Christians.
I have for about 30 years felt AA and the big book are more closer aligned to what the Bible and Jesus teaches than any denomination that has erupted. imo. :dsunny:
Quote from: ed on January 14, 2014, 02:50:56 AM
Weird thread.
AA teaches the overcoming of a spiritual problem, with a spiritual path, IE the God of your understanding.
Would you conciser this another path if the believer does indeed find a spiritual path that enables him to serve others and overcome substance abuse? It seems to bring one to the same place as a faith in Christ.
Is it God "Father" working in the individual even though they have not chosen Christianity because of whatever bias they may have?
I say yes it is. There is only one God, and the very same God that works in the Christian to overcome sin is working in the Alcoholic to overcome addiction.
Now you may be able to say it is just faith.
If you have never read Alcohol Anonymous the big book, I recommend it. It lays out a faith in God identical to Christianity without the Christian verbiage. I have met some very spiritual individuals who are not Christians.
Is this not what Jesus meant by those to whom little was given. In my mind He always praised the ones who had little and gave much. I believe Father gives Faith in Jesus as some kind of proving ground, because Jesus was adamant that on a few would find the correct path. I do believe that the reward will be significant for the few that do make it, but for the many who squandered the gift of faith, like the talents of silver will be worth off then those who were given none. It is interesting how this little point is glossed over.
Thanks Ed,
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
[size=78%] [/size]
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 14, 2014, 05:20:48 AM
I have for about 30 years felt AA and the big book are more closer aligned to what the Bible and Jesus teaches than any denomination that has erupted. imo. :dsunny:
I agree with that and hav been saying that for a long time. Just the ability to be honest (confess your faults one to another) in a non-judgmental environment is huge. Try that in most churches. Prepare for counseling man, and then(if you dont shape up) expulsion.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 14, 2014, 09:40:55 AM
I agree with that and hav been saying that for a long time. Just the ability to be honest (confess your faults one to another) in a non-judgmental environment is huge. Try that in most churches. Prepare for counseling man, and then(if you dont shape up) expulsion.
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.
A sound principle.
Pharoah and the Egyptians had a form of spirituality, but it was tied into the principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms. The Sanhedrin of Israel promoted themselves and unrighteously dominated and abused the people of God on the back of a form of godliness that denied the power(love) thereof.
No one would say, I dont think, that there was no difference between the Egyptians who were engulfed in the waters of the Red Sea, and the Israelites who were delivered through it.
Or for instance, that there was no difference between Noah and his house, and all those who were engulfed in the waters through which God destroyrd their world.
Yet, we know that God fundmentally loved, and loves, everyone who every lived or will live.
Humanity has wrestled with the dilemna presented by these questions forever, but I think we have to remember.....
It is God who has presented the dilemna in the first place. We are learnng from Him as individuals, and as the human race.
We are not teaching Him. He is teaching us, each in our own order, by grace through faith, to live in full union with Him.
In my opinion, the wrath of God is real. The judgments of God are real and HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATED IN THE EARTH AND AMONG THE NATIONS since the foundation of the world.
The separation that exists between belivers in Messiah and those who reject Him have been set in place by God- "to all those wh received Him He gave the right to become sons of God". There is only one name under heaven given among men whereby we may be delivered, the name of Jesus Christ. It is by this name that the anakephalaiomai(gathering together into one) is being made- Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess....... to the glory of God, the Father.
I think when we get to caught up in making distinctions about aionian judgments for the WIDE ARRAY of groups that fall outside the offer of the gospel...... those who never heard, those who rejected, those who died as little children, etc., etc, ad infinitum we get drawn back under the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There are certain principles of justice and mercy that are OBVIOUS TO ALL. God has revealed is eternal power and divine nature THROUGH THE THINGS THAT HE HAS MADE.
I have always trusted God's justice. We can discuss and speculate over where the lines are drawn but imo, we miss the point. There are no LINES. It is the conversion of the entire creation from chaos into the ALL IN ALL of God's glorious harmony that is taking place and we know, more than any(imo) that is is an administration suitable to the fulness(completion) of times, the gathering together of all into one in Christ. Each in our own order, the totality of it far too sublime for our wee brains to encompass.
"For who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor for from Him and through Him andd to Him are all things to whom be the glory forever amen"
And no one will fall through the cracks
For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Christ and to through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross.
It is the gospel, the good news that God is reconciling all, and has already secured their reconciliation, that we declare. In this age it is the divine order of God in an administration that will require ALL OF TIME past and future to complete.
When someone receives that message, the Red Sea parts and they are delivered, NOW in THIS AGE, in a way that is not available to anyone who has not received the blessing and passed through the water. "Whoever believes in me has passed from death into life".
As to what all is going on back there behind us, we can speculate and wonder but our mission is to proclaim the glorious gospel of God's good will towards men expressed at Calvary and fulfilled at Pentecost and live as the Master did, lights in the midst of an untoward generation, misunderstood, falsley accused and nevertheless holding fast the name of our Father and declaring that the kingdom of God is coming- Prepare the way of the Lord!
Our responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)
Excellent post :dsunny:
I especially liked, "I have always trusted God's justice. We can discuss and speculate over where the lines are drawn but imo, we miss the point. There are no LINES. It is the conversion of the entire creation from chaos into the ALL IN ALL of God's glorious harmony that is taking place and we know, more than any(imo) that is is an administration suitable to the fulness(completion) of times, the gathering together of all into one in Christ. Each in our own order, the totality of it far too sublime for our wee brains to encompass." Amen
This is just a personal thing, I just can't get past the "spiritualism" part of this post. Spiritualism is not scriptural, spiritualism is an absolute opposite of spiritual and spirituality in the Bible. When Saul went to the witch he delved in spiritualism, in my opinion. I say again I have no faith in spiritualism.
Quote from: EagleswayOur responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)
I love your post Eaglesway. There were parts where it was like I was reading Peter. Particular to your quote above, yes I agree. The Gospel is SO simple. I could probably explain it in a single sentence.
Until the questions come...
Question...after question....from well meaning people who want to believe as we do, but...what about this scripture and that one? You can tell them to just let go of all that and trust Jesus, but when they go back to their church to spread the word, and they get a barrage of scriptures out of context from their preachers, and they are left shaken, a house built on sand.
It's simple, but complex. Complex, but simple.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 15, 2014, 11:44:35 PM
This is just a personal thing, I just can't get past the "spiritualism" part of this post. Spiritualism is not scriptural, spiritualism is an absolute opposite of spiritual and spirituality in the Bible. When Saul went to the witch he delved in spiritualism, in my opinion. I say again I have no faith in spiritualism.
Micah, please do not get hung up on a word. Clearly my title was misleading. I fully understand what you are saying about the negative aspects of spiritualism. This was my mistake.
However, should you go back and reread my first post. You will see that while I fully believe that Father does give the Spirit of Peace, Kindness, Patience to many of have no concept of Jesus. I know many who call themselves spiritualists because they do not in anyway aline themselves with the "church." Many profess to believe in Jesus and by all appearances live good, clean moral lives. The whole point of the post was until Father begins to transform one in order to present to Christ, nothing is real. How many each Sunday morning lap everything up that they are told and a positive millions will burn forever. The profess their faith in Jesus and most bare Spiritual Fruit, but I doubt is Father has called them to Christ. If they were called, their hearts would turn to a Spiritual peace and an assurance that all will be saved.
Father calls and we follow. We cannot circumvent that by our own choosing.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on January 15, 2014, 11:46:18 PM
Quote from: EagleswayOur responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)
I love your post Eaglesway. There were parts where it was like I was reading Peter. Particular to your quote above, yes I agree. The Gospel is SO simple. I could probably explain it in a single sentence.
Until the questions come...
Question...after question....from well meaning people who want to believe as we do, but...what about this scripture and that one? You can tell them to just let go of all that and trust Jesus, but when they go back to their church to spread the word, and they get a barrage of scriptures out of context from their preachers, and they are left shaken, a house built on sand.
It's simple, but complex. Complex, but simple.
:iagree: Eaglesway :iagree: Seth
We are the planters, the "truth" is the seed. The hearts of each are the hard-trodden paths, the rocky barren soil and thorny outcrops. Some hearts will even be freshly tilled fertile soil, ready for planting. We are to just sow, because as Paul has said. Father knows the hearts and He will cause his truth to grow where and when he wants. I especially feel for your words regarding "well meaning people," the world is full of them.
You know, we are to do more than just plant. We must fertilize and till the soil. Many hearts will take much tilling and much fertilizing before they are ready for planting. We do this by bearing our Spiritual fruits where ever we go, with every word we speak and do. We will know when to plant and we will know what to plant, because Jesus promised that the Spirit would give us the words to say. I think that in the haste of planting, the truth just gets blown away because the "soil" (their hearts) were not properly prepared. I believe this might take some time, but it is something that must be done.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on January 15, 2014, 11:46:18 PM
Quote from: EagleswayOur responsibility is really quite simple I think. Love everyone. Declare the kingdom of God and bear faithful witness to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah of the whole world, and proclaim Him the WAY into which all are called in to find that which will eventually become YHWH ALL IN ALL. :o)
I love your post Eaglesway. There were parts where it was like I was reading Peter. Particular to your quote above, yes I agree. The Gospel is SO simple. I could probably explain it in a single sentence.
Until the questions come...
Question...after question....from well meaning people who want to believe as we do, but...what about this scripture and that one? You can tell them to just let go of all that and trust Jesus, but when they go back to their church to spread the word, and they get a barrage of scriptures out of context from their preachers, and they are left shaken, a house built on sand.
It's simple, but complex. Complex, but simple.
I agree that the issues raised by well meaning and ill meaning people can be complex :o) I still say tho, OUR RESPONSIBILITY is simple. The Holy SPirit once spoke to me(let the reader discern), "I am the facilitator, you are just a witness." I have to simply and honestly bear witness to what I have seen, in the right spirit, and trust God as to the soil in the land where I sow.
I was trying to figure them out and figure it out for them. The Lord has been bringing me, personally, back to the foolishness of proclaiming. I declare the truth. I carry all the ammo I can, but I trust the Lord to penetrate the minds and the hearts. It is His plan, He is in control, its not on me to be more than I am.......just a witness to the glory to come :o)
Consider and rest in a truth, until it is time, it is not the time. There in lies my personal mired bucket of mud,(I don't know how to spell, connundrum.) WE want to, but the walls of doctrine and theology, denominations, christianity, and sects, meet us with the ferociousness of the love(which by interpretation is your going to eternal torment because you don't believe in a place of eternal torment for the deeds/works of your life) this, which they have been taught, and those sitting in that building, probably, have never picked up the Word, to see if the oracle behind their pulpit even understands or has reasoned what the Bible and a Lord God of Love represents.
I do believe, and have for many years, have become rested in Him,(with all my get up and want which at times had set me in a self embarrassed position in front of christians, which I have now ceased from doing) that when the Time arises, those who know the Truth about the Love of the Savior, will be heard. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 16, 2014, 04:12:46 AM
Consider and rest in a truth, until it is time, it is not the time. There in lies my personal mired bucket of mud,(I don't know how to spell, connundrum.) WE want to, but the walls of doctrine and theology, denominations, christianity, and sects, meet us with the ferociousness of the love(which by interpretation is your going to eternal torment because you don't believe in a place of eternal torment for the deeds/works of your life) this, which they have been taught, and those sitting in that building, probably, have never picked up the Word, to see if the oracle behind their pulpit even understands or has reasoned what the Bible and a Lord God of Love represents.
I do believe, and have for many years, have become rested in Him,(with all my get up and want which at times had set me in a self embarrassed position in front of christians, which I have now ceased from doing) that when the Time arises, those who know the Truth about the Love of the Savior, will be heard. :dsunny:
Sounds just like what Jesus ran up against :o)
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 14, 2014, 05:20:48 AM
I have for about 30 years felt AA and the big book are more closer aligned to what the Bible and Jesus teaches than any denomination that has erupted. imo. :dsunny:
The first time I truly felt God through people was in the rooms of AA. They loved me just the way I was with no judgment...and they did so until I could love myself.
Quote from: ed on January 14, 2014, 02:50:56 AM
Weird thread.
AA teaches the overcoming of a spiritual problem, with a spiritual path, IE the God of your understanding.
Would you conciser this another path if the believer does indeed find a spiritual path that enables him to serve others and overcome substance abuse? It seems to bring one to the same place as a faith in Christ.
Is it God "Father" working in the individual even though they have not chosen Christianity because of whatever bias they may have?
I say yes it is. There is only one God, and the very same God that works in the Christian to overcome sin is working in the Alcoholic to overcome addiction.
Now you may be able to say it is just faith.
If you have never read Alcohol Anonymous the big book, I recommend it. It lays out a faith in God identical to Christianity without the Christian verbiage. I have met some very spiritual individuals who are not Christians.
The foundation of AA is Christian principles, founded after the Oxford group. The terms Higher Power and God of our understanding came into play in order to be inclusive rather than exclusive. You have many people come into those rooms spiritually bankrupt...void of anything resembling God in their life. Then something wonderful happens, they begin speaking about this relationship with a Higher Power. This relationship changes their lives. Some go on to put a specific denomination onto their relationship...begin going to church. Some don't. But, it's hard to argue that God doesn't move in those rooms, and perform daily miracles that I get to see with my own eyes. It's beautiful.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2014, 02:05:45 AM
I agree that the issues raised by well meaning and ill meaning people can be complex :o) I still say tho, OUR RESPONSIBILITY is simple. The Holy SPirit once spoke to me(let the reader discern), "I am the facilitator, you are just a witness." I have to simply and honestly bear witness to what I have seen, in the right spirit, and trust God as to the soil in the land where I sow.
I was trying to figure them out and figure it out for them. The Lord has been bringing me, personally, back to the foolishness of proclaiming. I declare the truth. I carry all the ammo I can, but I trust the Lord to penetrate the minds and the hearts. It is His plan, He is in control, its not on me to be more than I am.......just a witness to the glory to come :o)
Even an apostate can do it........or can't help but do it.
Wrote in this thread today:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20929538#post20929538
.
Great resd
Do we need any further proof that Father has blinded many and good. They're not blind of their own choosing, so how can they see any other?
We're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
Quote from: JulieTangWe're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.
It's definitely not "we" vs "them." I see it more as we
FOR them. But soon enough all will be swallowed up in Life.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 16, 2014, 06:51:26 PM
We're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.
Hi Julie. Can you show me chapter and verse on this? Because there are many scriptures that would say differently, and in fact, draw very clear distinctions - still, it's not malicious, it's as Seth said...not hating, but loving and helping when possible (Rom. 12:8) - but still knowing the difference
Quote from: jabcat on January 16, 2014, 07:11:23 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 16, 2014, 06:51:26 PM
We're not only to lose the "I", but the "Them" as well.
Hi Julie. Can you show me chapter and verse on this? Because there are many scriptures that would say differently, and in fact, draw very clear distinctions - still, it's not malicious, it's as Seth said...not hating, but loving and helping when possible (Rom. 12:8) - but still knowing the difference
[/quote
Jhn 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
Jhn 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
No I and THEM there James. I do not see myself better than anyone. Do you? Paul said he was the greatest sinner and I am sure deserving of nothing. The sooner we Love each as Father loves all of His children THE BETTER FOR ALL.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
we must be talking about 2 different things then...i don't seeing Jesus saying there isn't a difference between those that are His and those that yet don't know Him - or even hate Him and are filled with all things of the world, i.e. 'us' and 'them' if you want to call it that (I don't use that particular phrase myself, but the scriptures distinguish it clearly)...again, not us VERSUS them - but a difference. In fact, I'd say the scriptures say clearly, that if there's NOT a difference, then something's very wrong.
I Cor. 6: 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
If someone's talking about being better than someone else, I missed it...I didn't think that was the point of "lose the I and them" as you said, but maybe that's what you mean rather than there being a difference, and it being able to be known..thanks
But not so we can stand and point fingers :mock:
D
There are two lives at play here James. One physical and the other Spiritual.
There as many walls that divided in the former but none in the latter.
Love covers a multitude of sins.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
ANY ONE WANT A NOT SO SMART, SMART PHONE :sigh:
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 16, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
But not so we can stand and point fingers :mock:
There is two lives at play here James. One physical and the other Spiritual.
There as many weeks that divider in the former but none in the latter.
Was anyone talking about pointing fingers? I didn't see that.
If you're saying everyone's spirit or spiritual condition are the same (no division) then I disagree. I don't believe the scriptures support that - in fact, very much the opposite
Paul talked about (correctly) judging matters within the ecclesia [differences]
Jesus said one can know by another's attitude and actions
Paul also said to examine ourselves.
You know who I'm better than?
My old self - before Christ, completely walking in the flesh. Can I still slip and fall? Absolutely. But by His grace and mercy (in the words of a song) I'm not what I want to be, but thank God I'm not what I was... :)
I posted this in another thread but I thought it to be applicable here as well:
1 Thess 5
1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen..
His mercy and grace applied changes things. That's why we're given the word of reconciliation...Paul declared, "Be ye reconciled to God"... (I like to add a ! to that statement - I don't know if it was there in the original, but I sense it :)
"We have heard the joyful sound
Jesus saves, Jesus saves'
Spread glad tidings all around
Jesus saves, Jesus saves"
timely post,Seth. As I just did a study on the birth pangs....and at present Kerry working on a two-
state solution to peace and security in Israel[two nations in your womb?] with the given due date
of 9 months by Kerry.....will they just give birth unto disturbance? Instant destruction upon them
when they are saying'peace and security?".[
is Perez as a son of Ahab..making a marriage covenat with 'jezebel/babylon/catholic pope/pact?"
........the due date on April 15..blood moon.
..............
Hi Sheila,
It might help to understand my viewpoint by knowing that I see a valid interpretation of all physical destruction to be pointing to destruction in sin. For example, a destroyed house is like unto a destroyed life in sin. Whatever happens to Israel in earthly terms I believe has metaphorical significance to the Lake of Fire and New Jerusalem.
The way I see it, the idea that there is a we and them is clearly and simply expressed in the words of Jesus and all the apostles. He died for all, them and us, and this ministry of reconciliation must continue until there is no more them and God is all in all in one big us.
The idea that we are"for" (in love and prayer) them is also in the words of Jesus and all the apostles.
This does not mean we are in "agreement" with them, as Jesus makes it clear that we are not and that they will hate us for it and kill us and drive us from their synagogues.
The fact that there is a gulf between believers and unbelievers is sure, but as ministers of reconciliation we are praying, as Jesus did, Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.
well put John..
"this ministry of reconciliation must continue until there is no more them and God is all in all in one big us" :thumbsup:
:iagree:
Quote from: jabcat on January 16, 2014, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 16, 2014, 07:33:21 PM
But not so we can stand and point fingers :mock:
There is two lives at play here James. One physical and the other Spiritual.
There as many weeks that divider in the former but none in the latter.
Was anyone talking about pointing fingers? I didn't see that.
If you're saying everyone's spirit or spiritual condition are the same (no division) then I disagree. I don't believe the scriptures support that - in fact, very much the opposite
We need to get on the same page. No. We are not on the same spiritual condition, but not because anything we have done, so that we might boast and point fingers.
Sometimes it is just better to say nothing. I am learning that. Sorry for the confusion.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Julie
...wars and desolations have been decreed unto the end....
His cry....'If only you had known the way of peace' I hear it in my spirit........ :Pray:.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2014, 08:25:44 PM
The way I see it, the idea that there is a we and them is clearly and simply expressed in the words of Jesus and all the apostles. He died for all, them and us, and this ministry of reconciliation must continue until there is no more them and God is all in all in one big us.
The idea that we are"for" (in love and prayer) them is also in the words of Jesus and all the apostles.
This does not mean we are in "agreement" with them, as Jesus makes it clear that we are not and that they will hate us for it and kill us and drive us from their synagogues.
The fact that there is a gulf between believers and unbelievers is sure, but as ministers of reconciliation we are praying, as Jesus did, Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.
Am I the only one who sees the ABOSOLUTE TRUTH in your post?
It seems unless a post is full of Scripture then it means nothing. But I do not agree with this concept. How are we to grow and learn from one another if we cannot share what is given. :sigh:
You are very wise EW and I always learn much from you.
:HeartThrob: Julie
Did you think I was boasting..or pointing the finger? No,I don't think so..but God is my judge...
surely He knows my sorrows for the state of this world and my fellow brother's/man.
...but soon..he that both tempts and leads out in sin[deceives]..then accuses in the earth shall
be no more. WHAT A DAY OF REJOICING THAT WILL BE..........
actually..the things taking place in the earth...make feel like vomiting and crying at the same time.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on January 16, 2014, 08:46:28 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 16, 2014, 08:25:44 PM
The way I see it, the idea that there is a we and them is clearly and simply expressed in the words of Jesus and all the apostles. He died for all, them and us, and this ministry of reconciliation must continue until there is no more them and God is all in all in one big us.
The idea that we are"for" (in love and prayer) them is also in the words of Jesus and all the apostles.
This does not mean we are in "agreement" with them, as Jesus makes it clear that we are not and that they will hate us for it and kill us and drive us from their synagogues.
The fact that there is a gulf between believers and unbelievers is sure, but as ministers of reconciliation we are praying, as Jesus did, Father forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.
Am I the only one who sees the ABOSOLUTE TRUTH in your post?
It seems unless a post is full of Scripture then it means nothing. But I do not agree with this concept. How are we to grow and learn from one another if we cannot share what is given. :sigh:
Julie, I don't think the "problem" is with "saying something". This place is for discussion. But if someone doesn't believe it to be accurate - especially scripturally, then you or I may be questioned on it or another view of it presented for thought or discussion. To me, the problems wasn't that you "said something"..I just personally disagree with your specific statement that we need to let go of I and them, etc... I asked you to show me how that's true (scripturally), and attempted to illustrate why I didn't believe it was. Also, I believe a thought such as this can be weaved in and out of other beliefs, even helping form a foundation - and IF that's so, then it's worth questioning/discussing IMO. I don't believe suggesting that the scriptures appear clear that there is an absolute difference in lightness and darkness, saved/unsaved, etc., which doesn't seem to jibe with "no I/us/them, etc.", means anyone's mocking, pointing fingers at, thinking better than others, or that we should.. IMO, it's just not the same thing, and I didn't think from previous posts, anyone was making that point.
There's no problem posting without it "being full of scripture". I think that's another distraction from the issue - which is if statements are made that do not appear to be sound with scripture, it
might be questioned and asked to "show how that's true, what's it based on?".
What is it that causes you to think no one else saw truth in eaglesway's post? A couple of people expressed agreement, so I don't know where your statement's coming from. :dontknow: Thanks.
Posting a scripture is a way for me to explain WHY I believe what I believe. Just because I post a scripture does not mean I am right, but if I am wrong in my interpretation you are free to show how the scripture does not say what I think.
The Apostles brought the gospel to the Churches. What they wrote down, therefore, is the truth about it. If we are going to discuss the Gospel, it must be in alignment with what they brought, or I might as well go talk about something else, make up my own Gospel.
The reason I post scriptures is because of this one point: The Gospel does not belong to me. I didn't make it up. It was brought by people that God ordained to to do so. Posting scripture is simply my way of showing submission to it.
I am losing it guys. I just responded to you. both and where it went is anyone's guess. I think I need to just step away for a while. I love you both.
:HeartThrob: Julie