Spiritualism without Faith

[JulieTang84]

Do you believe that NO ONE can TRULY believe until Gifted with the Spirit to do so? With our Fathers intervention the words are empty literally of Spirit.


Love Julie :HeartThrob:

What I believe is that God GIVES the faith (to believe the Gospel and that Christ is and was raised from the dead) > then he gives the Spirit > then by the Spirit people confess, and works follow.

Do you believe that until Father draws one to Christ, Christ cannot and does not receive them to himself. No matter how earnest the words sound.


Love julie

[Seth]

I do believe that God draws one to Christ but Christ says "I will in no way cast them out." So, again, God gives the faith to believe, then he also gives the Spirit. I do not believe he gives the Spirit without the belief.

That's why Jesus says "preach the Gospel, whoever believes....and is baptized...."

[JulieTang84]

I do believe that God draws one to Christ but Christ says "I will in no way cast them out." So, again, God gives the faith to believe, then he also gives the Spirit. I do not believe he gives the Spirit without the belief.

That's why Jesus says "preach the Gospel, whoever believes....and is baptized...."

Paul was not a believer was he? One can not believe until faith is given to do so. This comes from Father, not Jesus I posted at least Scriptures that prove this is true.


Thanks for your quick response.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Man cannot choose his destiny.

[Seth]

Paul was not a believer was he? One can not believe until faith is given to do so. This comes from Father, not Jesus I posted at least Scriptures that prove this is true.

I never disagreed that God is sovereign over belief. I am simply saying that belief is necessary unto spiritual life.

Thanks for your quick response.

:Peace2:

Man cannot choose his destiny.

No disagreement. But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life. Not sure if you disagree with that or not, but if you do, you aren't saying so outright. You seem to keep pointing to God's sovereignty, but I have been confirming it. So where is this progressing.

God is sovereign over who believes. But belief is necessary for spiritual life to occur.

[micah7:9]

"You must realize, that one cannot choose NOT TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus., when Father draws one to Him. It is a done deal. Those who reject Jesus, no matter how strongly do so because they simply do not have the faith gifted to turn the other way. The also can be said for the kind and loving Hindu, etc." (Julie)

I guarantee with absolute Truth, when the Father draws one to Jesus there is no rejection strongly or weakly, it may take awhile, but that "while" is HIS WHILE and that while is not rejection, it's His process.
One can reject His commandments and His knowledge, but when the Father drags one to Jesus that person will come. :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

"Julie, can I ask a few questions before the thread goes a lot further?  Are you searching for an answer on this topic, or are you already pretty confident in your stance...."
The answer is...."you already pretty confident in your stance...."  :2c:

Just using what Father had placed in my heart. My mind has nothing to do with it, as It is not an understanding, but a given. I am merely sharing and am excited to hear what Father has given others to know.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

"Just using what Father had placed in my heart. My mind has nothing to do with it, as It is not an understanding, but a given. I am merely sharing and am excited to hear what Father has given others to know.

Love Julie "

You do realize that "heart and mind" are the same. Jer 17:9  The heart(mind) is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Gen 6:5  And Jehovah seeth that abundant is the wickedness of man in the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart(mind) only evil all the day;
Jer 32:35  And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart(mind) to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

    Repent- to have a change of mind, thinking. :Peace2:

[JulieTang84]

Seth wrote:
But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life.


I belive the Exact opposite


But man must have faith given by Spirit to be able to believe.

Eph 1:18-20
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power .

Love Julie

[ed]

"You must realize, that one cannot choose NOT TO HAVE FAITH in Jesus., when Father draws one to Him. It is a done deal. Those who reject Jesus, no matter how strongly do so because they simply do not have the faith gifted to turn the other way. The also can be said for the kind and loving Hindu, etc." (Julie)

I guarantee with absolute Truth, when the Father draws one to Jesus there is no rejection strongly or weakly, it may take awhile, but that "while" is HIS WHILE and that while is not rejection, it's His process.
One can reject His commandments and His knowledge, but when the Father drags one to Jesus that person will come. :dsunny:

Good point. 

I am apostate, but am arguing the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation on another board.  Why?  Because I can.  I believe that God works through Christianity.  It is doctrine that keeps the sheep in chains.  Doctrine from the pulpit.  God can even use an apostate to preach His word.  Ironic.

.

[Seth]

Seth wrote:
But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life.


I belive the Exact opposite


But man must have faith given by Spirit to be able to believe.

Eph 1:18-20
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power .

Love Julie

The scripture you provided does not show that a man may have spiritual life apart from belief.

It literally says:

"pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe."

The DARKENED heart must be enlightened, not the spiritual heart. The heart which is in darkness must be given faith by God to believe and BECOME a spiritual heart.

[micah7:9]

Pro 20:27  The breath of man is a lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the inner parts of the heart.

[JulieTang84]

Seth wrote:
But man must believe the Gospel to have spiritual life.


I belive the Exact opposite


But man must have faith given by Spirit to be able to believe.

Eph 1:18-20
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms,

The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power .

Love Julie

The scripture you provided does not show that a man may have spiritual life apart from belief.

It literally says:

"pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe."

The DARKENED heart must be enlightened, not the spiritual heart. The heart which is in darkness must be given faith by God to believe and BECOME a spiritual heart.

WHOA!!!!!! I never said anyone could have a spiritual filled outside of Christ.
Please go back and read read my first post as I think you missed it.  :friendstu:


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I didn't say, "outside of Christ."

I said "outside of belief"

The heart which is in darkness must be given faith by God to believe and BECOME a spiritual heart.

You must have belief to be spiritually filled.

[JulieTang84]

Seth what does these words day to you:




"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." (John 6:37)


No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)


It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe
...And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (John 6:63, 65).


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

The father draws them, but not through an indwelling of the Spirit. That is the assumptive leap that I believe you are making. God causes them to believe > THEN he gives them the Holy Spirit.

[JulieTang84]

I believe we have some wires crossed.  :friendstu:


I do not know or even pretend to understand why Father chooses to give spiritual/ Faith to one and not the other.


Yes Father gives Faith in order for one to truly believe, thus drawing them to Christ who will never let them go.


Seth I have never stated anything other than this throughout the entire thread.


Love Julie

[JulieTang84]

"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (1 John 5:1)


This is the born again result of Fathers gifting faith and bringing to life a spiritual heart dedicated to Christ.


Up until then, they are speaking empty words.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I believe we have some wires crossed.  :friendstu:


I do not know or even pretend to understand why Father chooses to give spiritual/ Faith to one and not the other.


Yes Father gives Faith in order for one to truly believe, thus drawing them to Christ who will never let them go.


Seth I have never stated anything other than this throughout the entire thread.


Love Julie

Hi Julie, To clarify the below:

"The spiritual heart must first be enlightened by Fathers great power ."

What I would say is that there is no such thing a spiritual heart wherein there is no actual belief that Christ was raised from the dead. Plainly speaking those who follow Buddha but deny Christ's lordship through the Gospel in their system of belief do not have a spiritual heart which must THEN be enlightened.

They are enlightened and will have a spiritual heart when they place their belief in Christ within their heart that God raised him from the dead, be filled with the Spirit, and works will follow, such as putting away false gods.

If we have no disagreement on that, then cool!

[micah7:9]

Spiritualism  1) the belief that the dead survive as spirits which can communicate with the living, esp. with the help of a third party (medium). 2) the philosophical doctrine that all
reality is in essence spiritual.

I, that's me personally, have no faith in spiritualism, nor have any desire to. :dsunny:

And I am sure that is not what you all are discussing, but that is what spiritualism is and to me it is just the slight of hand by religious theology to muddy the word Spirit.

[JulieTang84]

Micah please know that I have no interest in the spirituism you speak of either.

Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

All I am trying to say that this comes from Father, and no one else.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Sorry Seth missed your post. NO DISAGREEMENT  :friendstu:

[micah7:9]

Micah please know that I have no interest in the spirituism you speak of either.

Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

All I am trying to say that this comes from Father, and no one else.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

I understand, but the post reads "Spiritualism without Faith." I just posted the definition of the word
spiritualism.

[jabcat]

Julie requested the thread title be changed to Spiritualism without Faith - A Lie!   So hopefully further posts will show up under that heading...

[micah7:9]

Julie requested the thread title be changed to Spiritualism without Faith - A Lie!   So hopefully further posts will show up under that heading...

Are those not the same words? Just wondering.

[ed]

Weird thread.

AA teaches the overcoming of a spiritual problem, with a spiritual path, IE the God of your understanding.

Would you conciser this another path if the believer does indeed find a spiritual path that enables him to serve others and overcome substance abuse?  It seems to bring one to the same place as a faith in Christ.

Is it God "Father" working in the individual even though they have not chosen Christianity because of whatever bias they may have?

I say yes it is.  There is only one God, and the very same God that works in the Christian to overcome sin is working in the Alcoholic to overcome addiction.

Now you may be able to say it is just faith.

If you have never read Alcohol Anonymous the big book, I recommend it.  It lays out a faith in God identical to Christianity without the Christian verbiage.  I have met some very spiritual individuals who are not Christians.