For those who are interested, below are some links to Mike Williams resources. He is a very gifted teacher and a tender spirit. I hope you find it useful.
Internet Radio Show
http://www.glennkleinonline.com/webcast/guests/mwilliams.html (http://www.glennkleinonline.com/webcast/guests/mwilliams.html)
Online Audio
http://www.gospelogic.com/audio.htm (http://www.gospelogic.com/audio.htm)
His Homepage
http://www.gospelrevolution.com/ (http://www.gospelrevolution.com/)
Network Building
http://www.championsofgrace.com/ (http://www.championsofgrace.com/)
Peace,
Gizmoid
Anybody get a chance to listen? What do you think???
I have been listening to Mike everyday for about a week now. He's fantastic!!! I think I finally get it....about the law anyway. He says all these short, quippy statements that are full of truth. You know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin. I love her and her partner so much. Only God could do that because I used to be a fundie to the core. Everyone should listen to his tapes. He's wonderful. :icon_flower:
I'm glad you have been blessed. He is truly gifted!
Hey Gizmo, I have started a notebook of Mike's quotes and statements. He has a way of bringing truth down to its very core. I missed so much the first time I listened to his tapes, its worth listening to over and over again. I plan on financially supporting him also.
I'm glad. I hope others check him out. So far it's you and me on this thread :dontknow:
shibboleth Wrote:
QuoteYou know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin.
Hey Sibboleth.
Could you share more about what you mean here
"removing the law from my heart" Is this something Mike teaches :dontknow:
Thanks! :girlheart:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on October 13, 2007, 09:45:07 PM
shibboleth Wrote:
QuoteYou know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin.
Hey Sibboleth.
Could you share more about what you mean here "removing the law from my heart" Is this something Mike teaches :dontknow:
Thanks! :girlheart:
Hi Loveroftruth.
I've been reading some of Mike's material, and basically Mike teaches that we should judge people in light of Jesus' sacrifice for all sin and not according to the codemnation espoused by the law, ie: God sees the sins of all as already paid for and is not imputing their sins unto them, while the majority of the church wants to continue to judge them by the carnal commandment.
It seems really radical in a way, basically saying that God sees the whole human race as righteous because of what Jesus has done.
As concerning the law:
<< Hebrews 7:18 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The former requirements are rejected because they are weak and useless.
Our flesh (my flesh) still wants to judge according to the flesh. Mike is really challenging me to take the next step - accepting what I already know is true, but it's difficult to let go of the letter of the law altogether and judge humanity by the spirit of grace.
I'd love to hear your thoughts and others thoughts about this.
- byron
I guess I am old fashioned here, but I still believe that the Bible teaches that we are under the law until we believe and receive our forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ. I have heard Calton share that everyone is already saved whether they are homosexual or Muslim or aetheist and it does not sit right with me.
I believe that Jesus has paid the price for all to be saved and He will save all each in their own order, but I do not believe that all are saved and free from the Law today.
This being said, I still believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner. Treating all men with respect and dignity can and should be done, but I do not see that we have to see all as already saved to do this.
John
I agree Kratos. And I believe the law God writes in our hearts and minds is a living reality of what is written in Scripture. By the Spirit we are transformed to understand what God's law is without having to be told and to passionately love and choose it without coercion. I'm not antinomian. There is no fruit of the Spirit without conformity to moral law. Salvation is transformation. It is not by my doing it, "of my own self I can do nothing." His presence dominating me produces His likeness in me.
God spoke the Ten Commandments in the hearing of all the people. They are as absolute in their own realm as the law of gravity is in its realm. Inasmuch as people are dominated by "the law of sin," even so much are they receiving the result. These things pertain to actual substance and not merely concept. The promise to not be hurt of the second death is to the Overcomer. The crown is to the Victor. Without qualifying you cannot sit in the throne. Except you suffer, you cannot reign.
Not to be too picky; but, Hebrews 7:18 is referring I think to the precept by which the Levitical Priesthood was constituted being repudiated. Of course, in the next verse (19) it enlarges the application to the law, because it perfects nothing.
Yes, I can not forget what supernaturally happened when I "received Jesus".
I actually read a tract one night, prayed the "sinners prayer" and when I woke up the next morning I was DIFFERENT! The sky even looked a different color, its like my eyes opened to a new realm.
So, I have to say that Jesus is the TRUTH, WAY AND LIFE - No one comes to (has fellowship with ) the Father but through HIM.
I think if I didnt have that experience, I may agree that all are already in-fellowship.
PEACE and LOVE :girlheart:
Hey LT, our experiences sound similar. Imagine that! :girlheart:
Quote from: hopeful on October 14, 2007, 01:56:37 PM
Hey LT, our experiences sound similar. Imagine that! :girlheart:
Yup, Imagine that :Chinscratch: :banana:
That banana guy cracks me up!! :rolllol:
I do see people suffer consequences for their sin, and sin brings hurt to those around us as well. In fact, that goes for us who are born again and in fellowship with Him too, right? Even though we are forgiven, when we walk in the flesh it's still death.
So I guess my question is: Is He inputing THEIR trespasses against them (those who don't have a manifest relationship yet, or are they just sowing/reaping death because of still being under the control of the flesh?
Honestly, I'm not trying to make a point, I'm trying to understand. God absolutely transformed everything about me, so I'm totally down with that, and not just a 'concept' about how things theoretically are. Until people are converted, I don't see them benefitting from what Jesus has done - yet. But is God yet holding sin against people, or are they just still bound in the sin? Is all sin paid for?
I think these are very important questions, to me they are. Need more input from my brothers and sisters on this - please.
- byron
Quote from: Loveroftruth on October 13, 2007, 09:45:07 PM
shibboleth Wrote:
QuoteYou know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin.
Hey Sibboleth.
Could you share more about what you mean here "removing the law from my heart" Is this something Mike teaches :dontknow:
Thanks! :girlheart:
When I attended church, I was told that God loves the sinner, yet hates the sin. Yet, adulterers, homosexuals, thiefs, prostitutes, drunks and drug addicts were not allowed to be part of the congreation.....at least they weren't if they were still practicing these sins. Yet, haughty, arrogant, judgmental, gossipy people were allowed to be part of the church congregation. I never understood why we had these dividing lines about what sins were acceptable and what sins weren't. If we are no longer under the law, then we can't pick and choose the laws we are going to be under. Thousands of denominations all with their own laws, creeds, confessions, and rules.
Jesus said that yet while we were sinners He died for us. So, my sin is no barrier to his grace. Jesus loved me when I was living a very sinful, selfish life. He loves my cousin and her partner while they are practicing the gay lifestyle. Does that mean we should sin so grace abounds? Paul said God forbid. But, the participation in sin has no bearing on
God's deep and abiding love for all of us. If we truly know that kind of grace, then we want to live a life pleasing to Him. And, it isn't hard to do because we realize how much He does love and care for us. We want to please Him becasue He's done so much for us.
Byron wrote this:
QuoteSo I guess my question is: Is He inputing THEIR trespasses against them (those who don't have a manifest relationship yet, or are they just sowing/reaping death because of still being under the control of the flesh?
I am going to "guess" that they are reaping death (spiritual) the word says sowing to the flesh reaps the flesh. But I would be very curious to see what others say.
I like your posts byron, you are one very inquisitive dude and have very good thoughts and questions that seem to come from that :friendstu:
:girlheart:
I do not see what Jesus did on the cross as having much if anything to do with what we reap in this life. God is not mocked, whatever we reap will will also sow. This applies to sinner and saint alike. What Jesus did for all and becomes ours when we confess His Lordship changes us so we sow better seed and forgives us of the judgment to come. It is not about changing what we reap, but what we sow. This is what changes our lives or our fruit.
John
Quote from: Loveroftruth on October 15, 2007, 02:10:31 AM
Byron wrote this:
QuoteSo I guess my question is: Is He inputing THEIR trespasses against them (those who don't have a manifest relationship yet, or are they just sowing/reaping death because of still being under the control of the flesh?
I am going to "guess" that they are reaping death (spiritual) the word says sowing to the flesh reaps the flesh. But I would be very curious to see what others say.
I like your posts byron, you are one very inquisitive dude and have very good thoughts and questions that seem to come from that :friendstu:
:girlheart:
I enjoy your posts too. I was alone with my UR thoughts for so long, it's great to be out here among people who know. I'm learning a lot.
I've opened a thread (I think my first?) to get people's comments on this specifically: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1046.0;topicseen
blessings,
- byron
I have to part ways with Mike Williams regarding homosexuality. It sounds really "open" and "inclusive" to say that we're just to love homosexuals and look on them outside the context of the law. But Paul rebuked the Corinthians for allowing aberrant behavior to go on within their fellowship.
1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Paul might have believed in universal reconciliation, but he also understood that sin not repented of still has a penalty, both here and at the Day of Judgment.
Eternal torment, no.
A cursed life in this world and a hard reproof from our Father in Heaven, yes I think so.
And to spare the man's reproach on the Day was of secondary concern to the "leaven leavening the whole lump of dough"- the ruining of the fellowship within the rest of the body.
Which, by the way- if everyone in the UR camp held the views that Mike W. does, you might as well abandon all hope of bringing mainstream evangelicals on board and giving up their ET beliefs.
just my :2c:
QuoteI have to part ways with Mike Williams regarding homosexuality. It sounds really "open" and "inclusive" to say that we're just to love homosexuals and look on them outside the context of the law.
1 Corinthians 5:1
Quote1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
Respectfully, how does 1 Cor 5:1 relate to homosexuals? It would appear to me that Paul was directly addressing incest.
Paul's point to was not to allow "immorality" to dwell within the church.
Incest/homosexuality, both fall under immorality.
Immorality is an awful big umbrella. I am not sure how you go from immorality to "incest/homosexuality" as if those two are somehow linked in Pauls train of thought in this scripture.
Jesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery. I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin. If we excluded that immorality from the "church" would a single non-comatose male be left?
Are you thinking that those who only occasionally commit immoral acts are different than those who live a "lifestyle" that presents more regular opportunities to commit immoral acts?
Once I master "loving my brother as myself" (unless that scripture is promoting both incest and homosexuality?) than maybe I can move onto the higher calling of deciding who is moral and who isn't.
To me the biggest act of immorality is to willfully want to exclude anybody from the love of God and His family.
Quote from: bhark54 on October 15, 2007, 09:53:31 PMImmorality is an awful big umbrella. I am not sure how you go from immorality to "incest/homosexuality" as if those two are somehow linked in Pauls train of thought in this scripture.
Immorality would be the train of thought. Incest and homosexuality both qualify.
QuoteJesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery. I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin. If we excluded that immorality from the "church" would a single non-comatose male be left?
No, we can't judge the heart, but outward acts are a given.
Quote
To me the biggest act of immorality is to willfully want to exclude anybody from the love of God and His family.
So by exhorting the Corinthians to "remove the wicked man from among [themselves]", is Paul guilty of immorality?
Is Paul immoral, or course not. I said, to me (for me) it would be immoral to willfully exclude. Is Paul perfect, no. Do we account of ourselves through Paul, no.
What I find interesting is that we pick and choose, from among Pauls teachings, which ones we think apply to the "church" today. I have observed that we generally like (and preach about) the ones we agree with and use them to justify our individual prejudgices.
Just a few of Pauls teachings in Timothy that we ignore.
Quote8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
Do we always (or ever) lift up our hands in prayer?
Quote12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent
Women have no voice or authority in the church?
Quote15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety
.
Salvation through birthing a baby?
Quote9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,[a] 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.
11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
Do not help widows under age 60.
Quote11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. 12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife
...
only deacons must limit to just one wife.
Paul does not condemn polygamy.
From Corinthians
Quote10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.
Paul commands not to divorce!
Quote8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
We have to take care of
all of our relatives.
1 Tim 6:1
Quote1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers.
Paul upheld slavery.
So if I don't divorce any of my wives and keep them silent in church, don't beat my slaves too much, lift my hands during prayer and don't help young widows then I am a
good moral member of the church?
I am sure there dozens ,if not hundreds more, of Pauls teachings that the church ignores. Since I am not wise enough to discern which ones apply and which ones don't I think it is best to simply follow the commandment to love one another.
I can even love those who think I am a fool.
QuoteImmorality would be the train of thought. Incest and homosexuality both qualify.
As does a long list of other behaviors, what makes homosexuality special? That you or I find the behaviour repugnant has no bearing.
QuoteJesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery. I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin. If we excluded that immorality from the "church" would a single non-comatose male be left?
No, we can't judge the heart, but outward acts are a given.
That is a cop out to your argument. Just as I have never seen a man lust in his heart at church (though in truth I have seen that), I have never seen a gay couple copulate during church. By your argument anything less then eye witness would be judging. I don't know about you but I don't hang around the bedrooms of my fellow believers.
I am 53 years old, have ministered in a traditional evangelical church for more the 35 years. I am quite certain that I have worshipped with, ministered with and ministered to homosexual men and women sometime during that time. I have never,ever witnessed an
outward act of immorality by homosexuals during those times of ministry. If you assume that two men or women living together for a long period of time means they are committing immoral homosexual acts then you are indeed judging. By that standard every Bible college in the world is full of immoral young men and women.
If the acts that homosexuals commit make them sinful and immoral, then don't our acts (sin) make us immoral? If sin is sin, big or little, then what does it matter what kind of sin makes us immoral? Are there sins that we commit that don't make us immoral?
I truly am not responding to your post just to be right or even argumentative. I appreciate it that your really talking about judgment and not eternal damnation. However, it seems that we replaced Mosiac law with the law of love, then we replaced the law with love with religion and legalism. Now it seems even those who believe in Grace and the finished work of Christ want to have their ounce of blood from those we deem less worthy of Grace then us.
Peace and Love in Him
QuoteI am sure there dozens ,if not hundreds more, of Pauls teachings that the church ignores. Since I am not wise enough to discern which ones apply and which ones don't I think it is best to simply follow the commandment to love one another.
Why even have a Bible, then? What are any of us doing quoting anything from the scriptures?
On this very forum there are reams and reams worth of debates and discussions over Bible passages...Greek and Hebrew word studies...comparisons of versions, on and on. But heck, Jesus summed up the law and the prophets with one command- so why do all of the mental gymnastics, right?
Well, I don't know if others would agree, but I believe the law has a very specific purpose, and it's the reason we all clamor around the Bible in order justify our "prejudices". Paul said he wouldn't have known what coveting was if there hadn't been the command "Do not covet". But coveteousness,
paid for by Jesus' blood on the cross or not, was going to eventually produce some real problems for Paul, and possibly those close to Paul if it weren't identified and dealt with.
The wages of sin
is death. Jesus' death is the payment of those wages- but it seems we want to forget the second part of the deal- the even better news, that through His resurrection comes the
power over sin. It's why He came. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=1&verse=21&version=31&context=verse) To destroy the works of the devil (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%203:8;&version=49;), not so that we can continue in them and "everything will be okay, it's 'paid for'".
My ex-brother-in-law turned to homosexuality- destroying both his family and himself. Do I love him? You bet. He is deceived and bearing the fruit of confusion beset on him by both the church and his immediate family (since childhood) and I have compassion on him in that regard.
Would it be "love" if I told him the "gospel" that "if he's okay with it, God's okay with it", despite the carnage of pain and hurt that it's caused our family, and the future hurt and the promised retribution to come?
No. Love will tell the truth- God's displeasure- and the FULL gospel, that through the power of Jesus' death and resurrection he can be "
saved from his sin" (
not just hell).
As for your claim of not having "wisdom to discern" what to follow in the Scripture, it will never be achieved out of your "wisdom", or lack of it. Everything is by the Spirit. If that's not your compass, you're very right- you will fail and you're just as well to throw your Bible away.
And as I'm getting ready to post this I see your second reply so I'll just respond to it now.
QuoteAs does a long list of other behaviors, what makes homosexuality special? That you or I find the behaviour repugnant has no bearing.
.
Not special, this is a defined act. Yes, under the law- just like murder and adultery, lying..etc. My take on the reasons for using definitions from the law is cited in this post.
QuoteThat is a cop out to your argument. Just as I have never seen a man lust in his heart at church (though in truth I have seen that), I have never seen a gay couple copulate during church. By your argument anything less then eye witness would be judging. I don't know about you but I don't hang around the bedrooms of my fellow believers.
I really don't even see a need to answer this but I will. It's not a cop out to claim homosexuality as an outward act. You don't need to actually witness the act in progress. The mere fact that anyone calls themselves "homosexual" is the very definition of what they
do, otherwise why would they call themselves such?
QuoteI truly am not responding to your post just to be right or even argumentative. I appreciate it that your really talking about judgment and not eternal damnation. However, it seems that we replaced Mosiac law with the law of love, then we replaced the law with love with religion and legalism. Now it seems even those who believe in Grace and the finished work of Christ want to have their ounce of blood from those we deem less worthy of Grace then us.
I think this current post (above) answers this sufficiently.
edit: but to sum it up, grace isn't just about forgiveness, it includes the power to change.
That's why Paul as much as said the church is really doing no favors for the wicked by allowing them to remain in their wickedness among them.
peace and love back. :boyheart:
"Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?" (Malachi 2:17)
There are more open and public meetings where "whosoever will may come," but with the intent that they "take freely of the river of the water of Life." There are also more closed meetings. When Paul was finally released into his apostolic ministry we're told in Acts 13 :1-2,
"Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers...As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."
This is something we'd probably do more exclusively as the Church. Another example of more private gatherings is...
1 Corinthians 5:4-13:
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
In such circumstances as putting away from protection among us someone so their flesh may be destroyed, it seems we are not holding a public meeting. Notice, it is to their salvation such is done. Following is an example of unbelieving or newly believing people attending our gatherings:
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
As we continue this passage from 1 Co 14 below, consider that we do not want the spirits behind perversion or other wickedness creating the atmosphere for The Saints, that is, The Holy Ones. We also disallow their influence on our children. By no means is it irrelevant that some of our personal problems may be as much an attraction as to rightly find such repugnant. We are told to know them that labor among us. Strangers or the wicked, though they may occasionally attend, are not welcome to the every member participation that the body of Christ should be experiencing. Our normal "round-table" structure meetings involve more mutual recognition as members of Christ's body. The special or beginers meetings that are of a less participatory "lecture" structure it is not as crucial for us to monitor one-another because these are less "one anothering" in format. Those who regularly are only an audience for a performance on stage by substitute mediators, what they have to do with being the body of Christ is uncertain. What they do with homosexuals, as apostates themselves, is hardly to be regarded as pacesetting for us. To continue with the next verse in chpt 14:
"How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."
This is about "those from a common womb", the "brethren!"
---James
QuoteBut heck, Jesus summed up the law and the prophets with one command- so why do all
of the mental gymnastics, right?
I agree, those mental gymnastics are the basis of practicing "religion", which has nothing
to do with the simple fact of a completed act of reconciliation initiated by God.
QuoteThe wages of sin is death. Jesus' death is the payment of those wages- but it seems
we want to forget the second part of the deal- the even better news, that through His
resurrection comes the power over sin. It's why He came. To destroy the works of the
devil, not so that we can continue in them and "everything will be okay, it's 'paid
for'".
I agree, sinful (unhealthy) living will eventually cause a physical death. Other kinds of
sins will cause, for lack of a better word, spiritual dis-ease. However, because of Grace
I refuse to believe that God is some sort of cosmic accountant, tallying up sins and acts
of repentance. In any case we are not God's hall monitors.
Sins power is in its ability to separate us from God and from each other. If the
work of the cross has not already conquered sin and death then we have no hope.
Does God love someone less while they are "in sin?" Of course not. We can do nothing to
make God love us more, nor can we do anything to make Him love us less. We are human, we
are going to miss the mark, we are going to offend. Does God want us to be sinless? He
knows that is not possible. Does God want us to sin less? Yes! We are refined by Him
daily. His judgments are applied daily through his physical laws of the universe and by His all consuming, corrective love.
You believe that homosexuality is one of Pauls "named" sins. But we (the church) almost
universally regard many of Pauls other "named" sins as of no consequence in this age. What
if Paul named homosexuality a sin as a result of his personal discomfort of most all things
sexual? He barely even allowed for marriage and only then because it was better to marry then to burn with lust.
If two consenting people (gay or straight), share a moment of loving intimacy, why does that
have to rock the foundations of Christendom? Surely there are things of more consequence than sexual relationships? God created the universe, all the galaxies, all the planets and moons. On this planet He created the land and the seas. He created all the life. After creation we have messed things up pretty good. We kill each other by the millions, hate each other by the billions. We fight each other over things large and small. We damage each other with cruel acts and hateful words. It is hard for me to believe that while God is at work in His creation and he happens to notice that Bruce and Tom are sharing an intimate embrace He goes ballistic and sounds the "red (or pink) alert."
I suspect that the pain and damage caused by your ex-brother-in-law was the result of his no longer being able to deny his nature. Whether he was "born that way" or chose that way does not matter. I was born a heterosexual and for that I am thankful. I cannot imagine the guilt and pain that homosexuals must go through and are subjected to. My belief is that sexual preference is inborn, why would anyone want to choose such a life of pain, judgment, rejection and exclusion?
I would suggest that the "named" sin of obesity (glutteny) has destroyed more lives and more families then homosexuality. By any measure there are far more obese people then gay people. Yet we don't comdemn fat people. We don't judge them as immoral. We easily accept that they can't help it, that maybe they are born that way. We don't exclude morbidly obese people from worship or positions of leadership. Perhaps we should place scales in the church and discipline those whose fat percentage is too high?
My whole, poorly argued and explained, point is this:
1. Why focus on one sin to use to justify exclusion?
2. We should be relating to others in a true spirit of love.
3. It is Gods job to judge, punish and correct, not ours, I think history has proven that
mere men have never had the wisdom or "spirit" to handle that task.
4. If I follow Jesus's footsteps closely I don't need to worry about where Paul stands.
5. If you think you are morally superior to or less sinful then someone else to the point of being able to exercise your corrective judgment upon them, then you can be
sure someone else is thinking the same thing about you.
Bob H
Quote from: bhark54 on October 16, 2007, 05:57:54 AM
If you think you are morally superior to or less sinful then someone else to the point of being able to exercise your corrective judgment upon them, then you can be sure someone else is thinking the same thing about you.
Bob H
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Those of us who have been "suffering with the Lord outside the camp" for very long sometimes forget that the "church" has three manifestations as revealed in the Bible.
(1) every individual is the church and the temple of the Holy Spirit.
(2) corporately, within a given locality, the individual members are assembled together as a local expression of the Body of Christ. This is a physical gathering of a spiritual body and has governments which include elders of overseers.
(3) every person who has ever been born-again whether in Heaven or still in earth make up the Universal Church of the Firstborn.
In many of Paul's epistles, he deals with the second of these manifestations. Any person whether they continue to practice sin or not, can come to the Lord and be a part of the first group for all may come as they are led by the Spirit and He will save to the uttermost. If they do, whether they change or not, they are automatically a part of the third group.
However, God has placed certain requirements upon the Elders and Overseers in the physical expression of the local body to not allow a little leaven to spoil the whole lump. There is a problem when we think we can exalt our views over those of the Lord as reveled in His Word. Jesus is still the Head of the Church and He instructs us as to how we are to react to those who will not repent of immorality.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
There is a very important distinction given in these verses. When Paul told them to not keep company with those who live in unrepentent sin, he was not talking about unbelievers. We should remain open to all who seek the Lord who we know so they will desire the Lord whom we serve. But, we are commanded not to fellowship with a brother or a sister who continues in sin without repentence. We should not hinder anyone from coming in to the church, but we should retain the visible manifestation of the church as a safe place and a vision on earth as it is in Heaven.
We do not do an unrepentent sinner any favor allowing them to believe that the Lake of Fire is not real or that God can be mocked concerning sowing to the flesh. Once Christ lives within us, He will deliver us from all of our destructions as long as we agree with Him that sin is sin. However, when we no longer confess our sin (homologia) and instead try to change the truth of God into a lie, the church should not support the lie by embracing a life-style which reaps the whirlwind.
It is not Christ's love to reject a lost person from receiving Christ regardless of their lifestyle. And, it is not Christ's love to treat a brother or a sister as though continuing in sin will not cause them more pain in God's consuming fire.
John
Quote from: Kratos on October 16, 2007, 07:32:01 AM
There is a very important distinction given in these verses. When Paul told them to not keep company with those who live in unrepentent sin, he was not talking about unbelievers. We should remain open to all who seek the Lord who we know so they will desire the Lord whom we serve. But, we are commanded not to fellowship with a brother or a sister who continues in sin without repentence. We should not hinder anyone from coming in to the church, but we should retain the visible manifestation of the church as a safe place and a vision on earth as it is in Heaven.
We do not do an unrepentent sinner any favor allowing them to believe that the Lake of Fire is not real or that God can be mocked concerning sowing to the flesh. Once Christ lives within us, He will deliver us from all of our destructions as long as we agree with Him that sin is sin. However, when we no longer confess our sin (homologia) and instead try to change the truth of God into a lie, the church should not support the lie by embracing a life-style which reaps the whirlwind.
It is not Christ's love to reject a lost person from receiving Christ regardless of their lifestyle. And, it is not Christ's love to treat a brother or a sister as though continuing in sin will not cause them more pain in God's consuming fire.
John
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: you said it better than I did. :winkgrin:
Quote from: laren on October 16, 2007, 06:06:00 AM
Quote from: bhark54 on October 16, 2007, 05:57:54 AM
If you think you are morally superior to or less sinful then someone else to the point of being able to exercise your corrective judgment upon them, then you can be sure someone else is thinking the same thing about you.
Bob H
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Bob,
I think that your posts are revealing the life & spirit of Scripture on this subject... I thank you.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Dean
It seems there's a preponderance for some to believe that the concept of sin has been eradicated along with the concept of an eternal hell. How sad. :sigh:
I just want to address this:
Quote from: bhark54 on October 16, 2007, 05:57:54 AMI suspect that the pain and damage caused by your ex-brother-in-law was the result of his no longer being able to deny his nature. Whether he was "born that way" or chose that way does not matter. I was born a heterosexual and for that I am thankful. I cannot imagine the guilt and pain that homosexuals must go through and are subjected to. My belief is that sexual preference is inborn, why would anyone want to choose such a life of pain, judgment, rejection and exclusion?
Yeah, the poor homosexual. Nobody understands him. Only
he could be the victim of his sin right? Not my sister, who endured nearly a year of his "infidelity", while leading a life of celibacy as a married woman. She was the most patient and loving of all.
Not his three children, either. Who basically have no father, and haven't had one since he "found his freedom"- months before the charade of a marriage was ended.
Yes, we're all so concerned that homosexuals find out who they really are, so everyone can be contented and live happily ever after.
Maybe you could explain this to his x-family. Explain to the kids that their dad was within his rights to "find himself". And help them know it couldn't be out of any selfishness or enjoyment of sin on his part. If you think selfishness wasn't involved- the man hired one of the best divorce lawyers in town and took the best of the furniture (yes including the table his kids eat from) to enjoy with his new "mates", while leaving my sister and the kids in their mortgaged house, with now no way to make the payments- just waiting for the bank to come and take it back. But there'll be no accountability for this- because
he's the
victim, right?
UNREAL.The fact is sin kills, it steals, it destroys- NOT just the sinner, but everyone close to him or her in most cases.
I don't have any more to discuss with you, Bob. We are obviously in disagreement over the root of homosexuality, you think it's inborn, and I think it's cultivated. So you see a total victim, while I see depravity (however wrought through temptation and circumstances) that refuses to allow the work of the cross.
Whether homosexuals are "born that way" or "become that way" really is a moot point, in that regard though, isn't it? You talk about my ex-brother-in-law "no longer being able to deny his nature". But isn't that whole point of the gospel? That Jesus came to
free us from that "nature"? And yes, he was at one time a professing Christian. I'm grateful he doesn't profess it any more, because he
knows he isn't living it. At least he has sense enough to see that, though if he talked with
you he'd probably change his mind. :sigh:
And in regard to this (though I probably shouldn't waste the bandwidth):
QuoteI would suggest that the "named" sin of obesity (glutteny) has destroyed more lives and more families then homosexuality. By any measure there are far more obese people then gay people. Yet we don't comdemn fat people. We don't judge them as immoral.
Obesity and gluttony aren't synonymous terms. There are reasons people become obese beyond "over-eating". So you can't claim obesity is a sin. You also subvert your own argument with the comparison. I've never heard of
anyone being "born obese". Nor have I heard of anyone "destroying" their family's lives through being over-weight. I have some relatives that would be considered obese. They have normal, healthy, LOVING relationships with their families. Not so with the example of my x-brother-in-law.
In Him,
ken
Since Ken won't be reading this my comments are just for those who might be following the discussion.
Quotethe pain and damage caused by your ex-brother-in-law
I guess you missed that part. Of course I recognize the damage done to his family.
Of course I have even more compassion torward them as innocent victims. But the topic
of discussion was a particular named sin.
Of course he has responsibility to his family, to his debts. Of course as his brother in law I would insist, forcefully if need be, that he fulfills those responsibilities. I would use every personal and civil remedy available to see that he takes care of his family. And I would do it in love.
But none of that has anything to do with "church discipline." We are all human. How can it be that those who sins are hidden can discipline those whos sins have been exposed? Since my hidden sin (whatever it is) is more culturally acceptable I have the right to spiritually "correct" those who's exposed sin is less acceptable? The results of "church discipline" in the past is the very reason we have 20,000 to 30,000 denominations/"movements" now. The divided church is why the world sees us as hypocritical. Maybe Paul was wise enough to apply it, but I don't think anyone else since him has been. The result of mere humans applying "church discipline" is what gave power to the Roman Catholic church.
Quotehe was at one time a professing Christian. I'm grateful he doesn't profess it any more
You can't actually be happy that
anyone is pushed away from Jesus or His influence can you?
QuoteNor have I heard of anyone "destroying" their family's lives through being over-weight.
I guess I just made it up that obesity it a leading cause of heart attacks and a myriad of other deadly health issues. When someone dies decades before they should I would guess that has an detrimental effect on their families, but maybe I am wrong.
QuoteIt seems there's a preponderance for some to believe that the concept of sin has been eradicated along with the concept of an eternal hell. How sad
I certainly never said that. Sin and its effects are very real. I just think humans are ill equipped to shake the sin out of other humans.
I went through your discussion and I agree with Ken concerning your comparisons. Obesity is not the cause of anything, but unhealthy living can cause obesity. Just like there is bad carbs like white flour, white sugar, etc. there is good carbs, whole grains, nuts, etc. There is a problem when you are trying to make a point and you error in your comparisons. My great grandfather was considered obese when he died of natural causes at age 87. He died healthy and obese. So stop trying to prove your point on obesity and make your point.
As with so many situations, this comes down to who is Lord and who is the Head of the Church? The Kosmos is a spiritual Kingdom where man leans on the tree of their knowledge of good and evil to determine what is right and wrong. God's Kingdom is where we lean on the tree of life to determine what He says is right and wrong.
God said through Paul that if a man who calls himself a brother continues in immorality, you should not fellowship with or even eat with them. He told Paul to instruct the Church in Corinth to put out the man committing immorality so the whole church is not effected and so that this man could bear with the consequences and repent. Once he did repent (II Cor. 5), God told them through Paul to receive the man back into their fellowship.
So, if you are a citizen of the Kosmos, you will allow all kinds of immoral behavior to remain in your churches because you are your own Lord and the head of your own church.
But, if you are a part of God's Kingdom and Jesus is Lord and He is the Head of the Church, you will love all, receive unbelievers who are still in immoral lifestyles that they may be saved, and put out those who are saved, but will not relent so they can bear their consequences and repent and be welcomed back into fellowship.
Why is just doing the Word never good enough for so many?
John
I certainly am glad your great grandfather lived to be 87.
While it is true that some people suffer from obesity due to glandular issues, the vast majority of overweight people are that way simply because they eat to much and exercise to little. Gluttony is eating or drinking to excess. If I don't have a glandular issue and I am obese then I must be eating to much. Currently half of Christendom (the Catholic Church) lists gluttony as a mortal sin, worthy of a permanent loss of grace. Of course I don't agree with that, but that is not the point of why I brought it up.
My point was simply that it is
foolish to pick one "named" sin to exclude (apply church discipline) someone while you ignore other "named" sins.
QuoteObesity is not the cause of anything
According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use. An estimated
300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic .
Please notify the AMA and the NIH with regards to your personal findings, you will obviously save them a lot of needless concern and effort.
QuoteSo stop trying to prove your point on obesity and make your point.
Thank you for your loving spirit and valuable contribution to this discussion.
John,
I appreciate your carefully considered responses. The problem I have in applying the church discipline teachings that Paul gave to the early church is that we in this age ignore much of what he said. We pick and choose. Secondly, are there many as wise as Paul today that could properly apply it today? In the past I have seen horribly misapplied.
Thanks again for you input.
Bob H
Okay, so going on small rabbit trails is considered productive by yourself? Since you want to go that way. It is not OBESITY that is the cause of health problems. Unhealthy lifestyles lead to health problems and obesity. OBESITY IS A HEALTH PROBLEM, most of the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity
http://www.annecollins.com/obesity/causes-of-obesity.htm
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/o/obesity/causes.htm
So cause and effect, obesity is an effect, not the cause. You don't get cholestrol problems because your obese, you have cholestrol problems because you eat unhealthy food and because you eat unhealthy food you become obese (sometimes).
Quote from: bhark54Thank you for your loving spirit and valuable contribution to this discussion.
Sarcasm is defined:
Quote from: Wikipedia.orgSarcasm is the sneering, jesting, or mocking of a person, situation or thing. It is strongly associated with irony, with some definitions classifying it as a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound — stating the opposite of the intended meaning, e.g. using "that's fantastic" to mean "that's awful".
Quote from: Dictionary.com
Sarcasm:
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark:
So sarcasm is definitely a lack of loving spirit, and really does nothing to contribute to a conversation. I know I was not sarcastic when I said, "So stop trying to prove your point on obesity and make your point." You lost your point on obesity, because you were simply wrong about what obesity is, so drop it and make your point (some other way!).
So if you understood that and your remark...
Quote from: bhark54Thank you for your loving spirit and valuable contribution to this discussion.
...was sincere, then I appreciate it. Thank-you for understanding that my comment was for the value of the conversation.
Precisely my point, you almost made the presumption to understand the motivation of my heart, and you would have been wrong, presumptions can be wrong, even when applying church discipline. I replied in genuine kindness to your command that I make my point.
Even as imperfect as I am I try to err on the side of grace.
Bob
Quote from: bhark54 on October 15, 2007, 09:53:31 PM
Immorality is an awful big umbrella. I am not sure how you go from immorality to "incest/homosexuality" as if those two are somehow linked in Pauls train of thought in this scripture. Yes, isn't all sin immoral? Why do we divide sin into categories and say some sin is minor and some sin is major? Would I be thrown out of the physical church because I am overweight? Would I be considered a glutton? How about if I told "little white lies" all day long? Does it matter how many or what kind of lies I tell; aren't I still a liar? What if I gossip "mildly" about others? Am I to be put out for that? Who determines what sins are to separate us from our brothers? How about anger? I still have a bad temper at times. Am I out? I could go on and on, but, the point is, we only become more like Christ when we stop judging others for their sins, and look at ourselves first.
Jesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery. I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin. If we excluded that immorality from the "church" would a single non-comatose male be left? How about if I am on a diet and only "lust after" the chocolate cake....am I sinning? How about if I hate my brother or enemy in my heart? And I want to murder him? This has happened to me recently. Am I out of the church?
Are you thinking that those who only occasionally commit immoral acts are different than those who live a "lifestyle" that presents more regular opportunities to commit immoral acts? Even if they don't act it out, are they still sinning in their hearts and lusting, stealing, lying in their minds?
Once I master "loving my brother as myself" (unless that scripture is promoting both incest and homosexuality?) than maybe I can move onto the higher calling of deciding who is moral and who isn't. Me too.
To me the biggest act of immorality is to willfully want to exclude anybody from the love of God and His family.Wow, that's the most loving statement I have read about grace. I, too, would be delighted to go to Mike's church services and anyone else out there who is a sinner; JUST LIKE ME, but I've been washed (by the blood) and I've been cleansed (by the blood) and I'm a new creature in Christ Jesus. If there's any changes to be made, He will make them. Yes, I can hunger and thirst after righteousness, but only God can truly change a black, dead heart into a red, living heart.
Quote from: bhark54 on October 17, 2007, 01:48:11 AM
John,
I appreciate your carefully considered responses. The problem I have in applying the church discipline teachings that Paul gave to the early church is that we in this age ignore much of what he said. We pick and choose. Secondly, are there many as wise as Paul today that could properly apply it today? In the past I have seen horribly misapplied.
Thanks again for you input.
Bob H
Bob,
Thank you for your thoughts. To me, the place where God makes the distinction is in the unrepentent heart of the sinner. The man used as an example by the Holy Spirit in First and Second Corinthians was "put out" and turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit could be saved in the day of the Lord because he would not repent under church discipline. That is the difference as I see it.
I do not believe that one sin should be exalted or resisted above another, but the way to make treatment equal is not to ignore the clear instruction in the Word and ignore them all. The Bible says that if we "confess' our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. I think you are probably familiar with what confession means:
G3670
ὁμολογέω
homologeō
hom-ol-og-eh'-o
From a compound of the base of G3674 and G3056; to assent, that is, covenant, acknowledge: - con- (pro-) fess, confession is made, give thanks, promise.
This is a combination of two Greek words. Homo (no pun intended(its a joke)) meaning the same as and Logio or logos meaning the written Word. So, confession means to say the same as the Word does about your sin.
I am sure that Paul followed his own teaching from God and had one go to this man and then to take two or three. But, now Paul is writing that this man says that a man should have his father's wife. This was not a man who was fighting against his flesh to overcome an acknowleged sin, this was a man who was exalting what He thought over the Word. He did not think that what he was doing was wrong and this is the Luciferic initiative of exalting your throne over God's and trying to change the truth into a lie.
So, let's take homosexuality since you brought it up, but I do not think this sin is worse than others. If a man is lost and has believed that homosexuality is normal and inborn, we should have grace for them and try to show that Jesus died for them so they can receive Him as Lord and receive the power to Overcome this sin. This is why Paul says that when he instructed them not to fellowship with immoral men, he was not talking about unbelievers. An unbeliever has no power to overcome sin.
However, once a man is saved and truly makes Jesus their Lord, they cannot be allowed to continue to challenge that very Lordship by calling homosexuality as anything but sin. This is homologia and neccessary for a man to be cleansed of this unrighteousness.
So, please understand this, the reason that homosexuality is treated differently than gluttony is homosexuals lie against the truth and say that it is normal and inborn and not sin. It is the attempt to change God's truth into a lie that is fought and must be fought by the church. I love the homosexual, but can never agree with them against God that this is not sin. No homosexual can ever be cleansed of this unrighteousness if they cannot confess and say the same as the Word that this is sin and an abomination to God.
The church must be a place of light and not darkness. I do not believe that we have to choose between light and love. I do not have to support darkness in order to love sinners. I can stay in the light and love them by holding forth the light and truth so they can be free when they are ready to accept it.
I really hope that you hear my heart as I personally hate this subject as it has been so overdone in the fundy churches. But Jesus is my Lord and He is the Word so the Word is my Lord (not the Bible as dead letter). The Harlot compromises with the world against her Bridegroom, but the Bride represents Him faithfully. Bringing in mixture is not love IMO.
John
All who eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, judge themselves, God, and others by this knowledge.
As soon as we partake of this knowledge, just like Adam and Eve, we fear God/LOVE and hide. Through judging ourselves we soon hate ourselves. In judging the hard world we live in we soon hate God. In judging others, we soon become prideful. Oh, if we only would trust in LOVE, we could come out of hiding, stop judging and start seeing we all are in this together.
To be open, and to be vulnerable means we have to quit hiding, quit pretending. This in my opinion is only possible when we eat of the tree of LOVE. Love transcends all judgments of good and evil. Love realizes we are worthy not because of what we do, or don't do, or what others do or don't do, but because of who we are.
Trusting LOVE is so hard to do. It's hard to accept. Our judgments of others in my opinion are a relfection/mirror of ourselves, and how little or how lacking in faith we still are in God's LOVE.
I read this the other day written by Kratos (John) on another thread, and to me it is so beautiful.
"I think that we see it backwards when we see the death of Christ as needed to appease God. It has been preached from pulpits for centuries that God cannot fellowship with sin because of His holiness. I am not making light of man's sinfullness or God's holiness, but when Adam sinned, God knew about it and still came looking for Adam to fellowship with him in His sinfull state. The truth is that if God could not fellowship with sinful man, He would have no one to fellowship with regardless of what those who think they have already come to sanctification might say or believe.
When man sinned and became aware of good and evil, it made Him instantly aware of the vast gulf between God's goodness and man's sinfulness. The breaking of fellowship with man was because of man's conscience. Adam hid from God. It was not the other way around. Notice what this verse really says:
Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
The institutional church reads these verses and stresses that man's sins keep God from being able to stand to be around us. Even through the blood of Jesus, they say, God has to hold his nose to be around us. But what does the Word really say? It says that God's arm is not short and His ear is not too heavy to hear. The problem is not on God's side in our inability to fellowship. So it must mean that our sin does something to us that keeps us from fellowshipping with God.
According to Hebrews 9 and 10, this was exactly what was wrong with the Old Covenant. God provided sacrifice for sin to appease man's conscience so He could fellowship with us, but these sacrifices had to be done year by year because we could not imagine that the blood of one natural lamb or goat could ever take away sin. The Day of Atonement would finally come around the the lamb was slain and Israel felt clean before God. But, by the next day, they would yell at the wife or kick the dog and they would again not feel holy enough to spend time with God and would have to wait a whole year to feel clean again. It has always been about our sin consciousness and not God's holiness.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
The Old Covenant could never take away sin. It only cleansed our conscience for a short time so we still spent more time feeling guilty before God than we did in fellowship with Him. But, Jesus forgave sin once and for all. He not only forgave every sin we have ever committed, but He has already born the punishment for every one we ever will commit. This was God's plan to perfect forever those who are saved as pertaining to our conscience which the Old Covenant could never do.
Unfortuntely, Mystery Babylon, the Harlot counterfeit for the Church, continues to keep God's people in bondage to sin consciousness. They preach the constant need to "go to confession" or to "come to the alter" or to "apply the blood" every time we sin. There is no ministry in Heaven of applying blood today. It was done once and for all, but ministers do not want you to know this. They want you continually guilty so they keep themselves in a job or they think you cannot handle the truth.
As a man sees himself so is he and as long as we see ourselves as sinners saved by grace we will continue to be a sinning church. But, if we ever get the Word in our hearts and really cleanse our consciousness of sin, we will be able to live boldly in His pressence and His holiness will become our own.
John"
For me, I am reminded of Paul's prayer:
Eph 3:14 ¶ For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Laren
(This strayed from being about Mike Williams some time back and I have to acknowledge I'm on another topic. I don't think this should be considered too contentious of a subject. Our freedom in the USA may be determined by what the Christians do with homosexuality. Surely you can see that by now. Even if I tucked the word love into every other sentence, many would still not be pleased with what I'm saying.)
1.) I was born dirtying my diapers; but, I didn't stay that way. I was born unable to talk and, if it wasn't for the help of the people who held me from birth, I might have never learned to speak 2.) I haven't ever actually seen pants with motorized zippers that spontaneously unzip themselves at the most opportune times.
To buy into "The Gay Approval Movement" there are two lies you must believe that contradict points 1.) and 2.) above. The lies are: 1.) I was born that way so you must approve of me. (To try to help me to change makes you a mentally ill bigot.) And, 2.) I can't change. Once gay, always gay. (To even say I'm wrong and should change is hate speech and you can and should be arrested and put in jail [which I think as many as 27 states have approved: Stalinesque thought crimes!])
Not only are all kinds of sin unique, each sin in every category is unique; and of course, each sinner is unique. Homosexuality, certainly considered as a social phenomena, (and this isn't a complete list) involves lies against nature, destruction and distortion of personality, denial of reliable knowledge about God, Creator worship rejected, worship of the creation accepted, reprobate minds and, by no means a small thing, unthankfulness. Lies and complaining are very typical of the homosexual nature. For all the increased societal approval the suicide rate among homosexuals hasn't changed. Even if they have to suffer a little to adjust to their assigned habitation, when people don't approve of the body God fashioned them to be developed with, they experience a deep seated rejection that is connected to not walking in line with the approval of God. To misplace the cause for their lack of acceptance outside themselves is confirmation of their lack of maturity and persistence in immature modes of thinking. True love is patient in rescuing ignorant and immature sinners from the snare of the devil. Even the official Association of psychiatrists in the USA (that produce the DMA Manual, I forgot their name,) and they can hardly be accused of religious bias, report good success in sexually reorienting highly motivated individuals. I'll tell you, one taste of the Holy Ghost and you'll be very highly motivated. You'll do whatever it takes to have Him!
According to scripture, we are born under the law of sin unto death. Through the death of Christ Jesus all Adamic humanity has been judged and executed. "...If One died for all, then were all dead..." (2 Cor 5:14) Homo sapiens, his world and all God blessed there is finished. God will not go back and work with it to bring it into perfection to fulfill any plan. The various sins disapproved in Adam are resolved by the removal of Adam. There is a new creation in Christ Jesus. The new man, homo novae, is God's chosen. This new man is the Image and Glory of God. God has determined this Overcomer will be raised up to inherit all things and in the light of its rising all thing are revealed. The wicked not only don't understand, they will not be telling The Church (i.e., "The Ecclesia") what to do. The Adamic creation must be subject to the superiority of this emerging new man. This putting in order of all things is otherwise called "judgment." (1 Cor 6:2-3) This is metanoia, a changed mind (translated "repentance") and the precursor of entrance into us and us into the immortal and ascended substance of the new man. We will never embrace practicing homosexuals as members of the body of Christ regardless of any educational, medical, religious, civil or other authority's insistence that we must. Just try to convince us that you were born heterosexual so you can't stop fornicating. People who assert such nonsense haven't come to recognize faith in the simple gospel (1 Cor 15:1-7) is what can and does save us from any and every sin in order that we may receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and enter the glory of God.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit (enjoy the allotment of) the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators (paramours,) nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate (catamites,) nor abusers of themselves with mankind (sodomites,) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor 6:9-11)
Quote from: bhark54 on October 17, 2007, 02:51:07 AM
Precisely my point, you almost made the presumption to understand the motivation of my heart, and you would have been wrong, presumptions can be wrong, even when applying church discipline. I replied in genuine kindness to your command that I make my point.
Even as imperfect as I am I try to err on the side of grace.
Bob
Glad you understood, I had to communicate my intentions, otherwise we didn't know where we stood. Been dealing a lot with people who find sarcasm some sort of good response and I find it very disrespectful and dissappointing, especially when they are supposably talking about the things of God. I make sure we are communicating and know our term and definitions.
Well, my views on this (homosexuality) will not endear me to some Christians, but hopefully, it will make a few rethink the subject. As someone who has studied human nature for many years - I just want to make a few points. These points are about homosexuality in men.
1. First of all, let me say as a straight man, the thought of two males together repulses me greatly. This was the case when I was a lost, very immoral demonically opressed atheist, and is still the case now. I was born straight, and chose to stay that way since the 'sin' of homosexualty was never a 'temptation' to me in the least - not while lost, not while born again. If something is greatly repulsive to you, it is not a temptation to sin in that manner - even if you are unsaved.
2. Again, as a straight man, I'll confess that the thought of two females together does not repulse me at all (at all: hint - hint). So, as a believer I had to learn to see it as an immoral and unproductive sin, just as a general matter of having my thoughts cleansed by God.
3. I have observed that in the church in general, gay men are judged much more harshly BECAUSE of the natural (not Godly - "natural") repulsion that straight men feel toward this. Male leaders are much more forgiving toward transgressions/temptations they can relate to themselves (ie: sexual immorality toward women). This is a non-Godly natural carnal inequity in dealing with sins. It is wrong, and is sin in it's own right.
4. I have known men who, mainly through childhood sexual abuse, aquired demonic strongholds that 'led' them into a homosexual lifestyle. When the unclean spirits are dealt with, I've seen them become free to live 'normal' heterosexual lives. In any case, there must be some inborn pre-disposition toward gay tendencies OR some kind of trauma as this behavior is obviously against nature, and goes against how we 'should be' physically and emotionally equipped as men to perform.
5. I have known other rare instances of men who apparently have female minds trapped inside of male bodies, or 'predominately' male bodies. What in the world do I mean by 'predominately male bodies'? Well, I mean, by medical definition - male, but (for example) with tiny wrists, very small waistlines, exaggerated hips etc. These traits are caused by genetics, not sinful thoughts/activities.
6. Okay, before you stone me - let me make a simple point. Some, people (Christians) say "No, God would never allow that! People choose to be gay, period."
My answer is - ever heard of birth defects? God 'allows' them. In fact, there are rare instances of people born with BOTH male and female genitals. Who are you going to blame for that? Is such a person just inherently sinful to be confused about their sexual identity? Of course not. No sane person would make that argument. It's a *defect* - a result of the fall of man.
7. It's a fallen world - things go wrong. To say that being gay is ALWAYS just a sinful 'choice' is an insult to reason. Science has proven that some gay men actually have (physically HAVE) female brains. There are differences. Unless you believe that some males are tempted to be homosexual, then, after acting upon the temptation - their brains miraculously transform into female brains, then you have to accept that in *some* cases, people are indeed 'born gay'.
Why am I making this point? Because it's simple, observable fact, ie: truth. Of course, some (most?) Christians will try and refute the facts about this in order to totally blame an individual's homosexual behavior on their sinful free-will choice. It's as small minded as trying to defend God for allowing sin (or suffering, or birth defects, or ET for that matter) to exist in the first place.
So, am I condoning sinful behavior? No. I was born (read: BORN) with many many natural sinful tendencies which I have to deal with throughout life. I also have chosen (read: CHOSEN) to allow certain sinful behaviors to control me AFTER birth. Can someone who is born with sin be changed? Of course. Can someone who later chooses even more sin be set free? Yes.
Am I causing people who are fighting homosexuality to stumble? I don't think the truth is a cause for anyone to stumble. As I pointed out above, we all have to deal with the cards that fate and destiny (God) has dealt to us. 'Tis an unescapable fact. I don't envy the road of a believer who is fighting homosexuality because of birth or trauma or choice. Just as I don't envy me for my horrendous lifelong battles, which have come from every conceivable angle. But God is good and gives us the victory as we face the FACTS of it all, not as we hide behind religious dogma.
Okay, last point. To all of us pious heterosexual clean straight people who were 'born' OR who 'chose' to be attracted to the opposite sex, or especially to some of us who were 'born' or 'chose' to be greatly over-attracted (to the point of obsession) to the opposite sex. Put the shoe on the other foot. What if you were told that your natural inborn craving OR your choice for the opposite sex was just wrong, and was an abomination, and that we had to lose that AND aquire a craving for the same sex? Yes, it would take miraculous intervention to do so.
BTW, the reality is that our out of control 'straight' lusts have to be dealt with by the same miraculous power of God. Our selfish, straight carnal nature is just as much of an 'abomination' as any other sin, sins that we were born with and choose and need a miracle (many miracles) to be freed from. Death will ultimately be the greatest freedom of all.
I really hope Godly sense and truth will be served here. Holy cow :mshock:
Okay, let the stoning begin.
- byron
To Reformer
Quoteinvolves lies against nature, destruction and distortion of personality, denial of reliable knowledge about God, Creator worship rejected, worship of the creation accepted, reprobate minds and, by no means a small thing, unthankfulness. Lies and complaining are very typical of the homosexual nature.
Doesn't that list fit into many sins?
I am particularly troubled by the "lies against nature." I do two activities that definitly go against nature on a regular basis. I fly my airplane several times a week, man certainly was not designed to fly, yet I do it. Occasionally I also scuba dive, another thing I was not designed for. I guess I am safe as Paul did not specifically name those as offenses. I admit those are silly examples. But what about using birth control to prevent pregnancy? Surely that goes against nature.
My point is that once we start categorizing, ranking and classifying sins we end up with the same old Law and dead religous practices that have failed for all of human history.Maybe after I have finished helping my lost sisters who are surviving by prostitution, my lost brothers who look for love in a string on one night stands, my lost cousins who live in a meth induced cloud, my lost uncles who stay alive by scrounging through dumpsters for food, my lost aunts who live lonely lives of abandonment... maybe after telling them that God loves them, just the way they are and that they already have a mansion reserved in Heaven, then maybe I will have time left over to scrutinize the sins of my fellow believers. Then again, perhaps I should just leave that to the more spiritual mature among us as I wouldn't be any good at it.
To Firstborn888Thank you for your honest post. If the stoning begins they will get us both as I agree with what your wrote 100%.
That we give the Grace we have received is my hope.
Bob,
Your posts are always nice and warm and fuzzy. We all just want to love everybody. I whole-heartedly agree with you that the "the least of these" (meth addicts, prostitutes, etc.) should get front-seat to the gospel.
But it seems like you're determined to follow your own logic and human reasoning in deference to God's Word. I see comparisons and analogies born out of your intellect, but very little of scripture to support your beliefs. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that any attempt at using scripture to base a belief on is tantamount to legalism for you.
The Bible is plain that there are categories of sin, as well as differing degrees of punishment for sins, but you've shown in previous posts (and in your current post) that the Bible isn't an acceptible guideline for you to follow, i.e. "it's irrelevant because everyone wants to pick and choose what scriptures we want to follow," etc..
So what we're left with is your opinion against what the Bible says. All I can say is (and I say it with all graciousness and not out of spite) "let God be true, and every man a liar".
Quote from: ken on October 18, 2007, 02:30:52 AM
Bob,
Your posts are always nice and warm and fuzzy. We all just want to love everybody. I whole-heartedly agree with you that the "the least of these" (meth addicts, prostitutes, etc.) should get front-seat to the gospel.
But it seems like you're determined to follow your own logic and human reasoning in deference to God's Word. I see comparisons and analogies born out of your intellect, but very little of scripture to support your beliefs. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that any attempt at using scripture to base a belief on is tantamount to legalism for you.
The Bible is plain that there are categories of sin, as well as differing degrees of punishment for sins, but you've shown in previous posts that the Bible isn't an acceptible guideline for you to follow, i.e. "it's irrelevant because everyone wants to pick and choose what scriptures we want to follow," etc..
So what we're left with is your opinion against what the Bible says. All I can say is "let God be true, and every man a liar".
When I first heard Mike and listened to him, I felt the spirit in me leap for joy. But I agree, his message is not in line in my opinion of the new testament. To me, the new testament message is obediance and performance.
Agape Love, to me is living in the presence of HIS complete acceptance, with no performance necessary. Living in the complete awareness of his grace. There is no shame, no hiding, no feelings of rejection, and no need to prove worthiness. Complete acceptance of who we are.
Is this how God truly sees us as defined in the new testament. Are we to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, or are we already transformed. Are we to live a life pleasing to God, or are we already pleasing in God's sight?
I believe the new testament teaches a gospel of working out our salvation with fear and trembling. That we are to be transformed into his image. We are to add to our faith, to walk by the spirit, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, and remain faithful so we can be counted worthy. We all want that special day where we hear, "well done thy good and faithful servant". The Holy Spirit is our strength to guide us into obedience. But, obedience is key. If you love him, you will obey him. Faith without works is dead.
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for
obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name;
2Co 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the
obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him. 2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and
bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2Co 10:6 And having in a
readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he
obedience by the things which he suffered; 1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
I believe the new testament message is one of
performance, but not through the works of the flesh; but through the power of the Holy Spirit.
A few examples are as follows:
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that
ye may prove what is that good, and
acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Col 1:10 That ye
might walk worthy of the Lord unto all
pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
1Th 2:12 That ye
would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would
count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. There are numerous other examples of Paul, James, Peter, and John exorting for Christians to
live a life pleasing to God. There are examples of how one can fall from grace
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are
fallen from grace.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 10:23 Let us
hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to
good works:
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain
fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be
thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done
despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb 10:31 It is a
fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things
were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto
them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth
take heed lest he fall.
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you
holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight: Col 1:23
If ye
continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
2Pe 1:5 And beside this,
giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For
if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that
ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But
he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren,
give diligence to make your
calling and election sure: for if ye do these things,
ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so
an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
The message is strive and perform. Do the best you can to be counted worthy. Not by following the law, but by staying faithful to the faith of Christ. Trusting him for your strength, your power source.
To me, this does not sound like a gospel of complete acceptance from God. It's sounds like a gospel of performance.
Paul, Peter, James and John continually pleaded for his audience to keep hope. Hope for the return of Christ, hope for the full adoption, and to receive our inheritance. Hope for healing.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Heb 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought (yet future, grace yet to be brought) unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
For me, based on the new testament, we are to live a life by the spirit, hoping and patiently enduring to the end. So that at the coming of Christ (the second coming) we will receive our full adoption and healing.
However,
what if, the new testament gospel has already been fufilled.
What if, Paul, John, Peter, and James (as well as Christ during his earthly ministry) were talking of a fufilled end time, and return of Christ that would occur during the life of themselves. Not in the long future (ie: 2000+ years later).
Could this be possible?
Could the second coming of Christ already occurred, could the wrath of God have happened, including the tribulation, 1000 year reign, great white throne judgment, lake of fire? Is satan defeated, is death destroyed? Are we no longer under grace, but in grace?? Is Christ now King over all the earth, or just over those with faith?
This has led me to a study of preterism. And if preterism is true, then I say Mike has a great message. One of compelte acceptance, one of no performance necessary. One of fulfilled LOVE
Could it be possible God is all in all now.
Just a process that I have been going through.
I agree Laren that the NT does compel performance. Something that's utterly discouraging when I see it in the natural. But when I just read the scrips you posted through spiritual eyes I was invigorated. It's not me, it's Him!!! That's the gospel! That's the grace! :HeartThrob:
I appreciate your posting those scriptures, by the way. :thumbsup:
I delved a little in preterism for a while but the inconsistencies (a few less-than-minor problems) I saw made me lose interest. Of course, that's the same effect I got when I first looked into UR, so maybe I'll go back and have another look for myself.
Amen Laren. Good points.
Quote from: ken on October 18, 2007, 03:19:22 AM
I agree Laren that the NT does compel performance. Something that's utterly discouraging when I see it in the natural. But when I just read the scrips you posted through spiritual eyes I was invigorated. It's not me, it's Him!!! That's the gospel! That's the grace! :HeartThrob:
I appreciate your posting those scriptures, by the way. :thumbsup:
I delved a little in preterism for a while but the inconsistencies (a few less-than-minor problems) I saw made me lose interest. Of course, that's the same effect I got when I first looked into UR, so maybe I'll go back and have another look for myself.
Aweseome Ken! :) When it comes to Preterism, I can't speak for Laren, but I know that we agree on a lot so it is my experience that much of what "Orthodox Preterism" teaches can be debunked quite easy because of those less-than-minor problems. Yet, when it comes to the promises and much of Scripture fulfilled that is the truth. We are currently living in those promises which grow and grow and grow, never ceasing in glory, so we can never attain this perfection on our own. Let alone say what most preterist proclaim, that everything has come to pass there is not much more than this. The fact, which I agree with most preterists concerning, is the New Testament is explaining how the Types and Shadows have all been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. So knowing this, we must recognize the Old Testament and everything in it, has been fulfilled already. There is no more promises the Old Testament gives us, that has not already been fulfilled...and that is where most unfortunately preterists stop.
The Truth, is although the Old has passed away, the New has come! The new will never get old, it keeps going from glory to glory. Now, we are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, a promise of the Old Testament; however, now we live in the promises of perpetual priest Jesus Christ. There is the Law of God in Christ Jesus, which contains within it the everlasting promises of Eternal Life and Immortality and of life-giving Spirit! Jesus Christ, who did not come to destroy the Law, but fulfill it and fulfill it He did So now we live in the newness of life.
So, although everything of the Old has been fulfilled in Christ, we are now presently being built up in Christ, presently experiencing the promises and hope which many did not see in the Types and Shadows. It will continue to go on even after we have passed from this world. In otherwords, He is what was and is and is to come. Something that is very hard to comprehend, because everyone want to be sure of the end and beginning and do not realize that is Jesus Christ, the Almighty God, the Alpha and Omega is percisely that!
So now we can WALK in that performance, and we are REWARDED for our obedience. It is not an issue of works, it is an issue of glory. He has already completed what was required for reconciliation and salvation, but we now walk as Ambassadors doing the good works He has called us to do, that means gifts, that means miracles, that means living for God not for self.
There is more promises in Jesus Christ, then what the Types and Shadows promised. There is more hope in Jesus Christ, then the hope of Jesus Christ! This is powerful if someone can grasp it.
Quotebut very little of scripture to support your beliefs
Quotebut you've shown in previous posts (and in your current post) that the Bible isn't an acceptible guideline for you to follow
1. Did you or anyone else address just the scriptures I referenced from 1 Tim? Since you didn't am I to assume that you approve of slavery since Paul didn't comdemn it? Have you recently silenced a woman who dared to speak during church? Do you have any divorced friends who have remarried? All I am saying is that it is not acceptable, practical or reasonable to apply all of Pauls instructions to the early church in this age and thusly we are forced to make choices.
2. Forgive for failing to meet the scripture to opinion ratio, I must have missed that rule in the forum guideline.
3. I would be astonished if you really meant to suggest that the Bible is not an acceptable guideline for me to follow. You and I both know that anyone could cut and paste Bible verses to build a case for any position..including ET.
Some thoughts from Galatians
21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Just a guess here, but I think Paul means everybody.
4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace
And this is the Biggie!13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
14 The
entire law is summed up in a single command: "
Love your neighbor as yourself."
15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
So if it makes everyone happy before I preside over my next church council meeting I will ask that those who might be "continuing in sin" to leave the meeting, but to hang around so that I can take them out to dinner after the meeting. Hope I am still warm and fuzzy, my grandkids particularly like that attribute.
As always in Grace and Love
Bob
Quote from: bhark54 on October 18, 2007, 04:46:37 AM
And this is the Biggie!
14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
As always in Grace and Love
Bob
This is an interesting verse to me. Love your neighbor as yourself.
As yourself.This goes back to an earlier post I had. I don't know if I'm correct, but it makes sense to me.
All who eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil,
judge themselves, God, and others
by this knowledge.
As soon as we partake of this knowledge, just like Adam and Eve, we fear God/LOVE and hide. Through judging ourselves we soon
hate ourselves. In judging the hard world we live in we soon hate God. In judging others, we soon become prideful.
Oh, if we only would trust in LOVE, we could come out of hiding, stop judging and start seeing
we all are in this together.
To be open, and to be vulnerable means we have to quit hiding, quit pretending. This in my opinion is only possible when we eat of the tree of LOVE
. Love transcends all judgments of good and evil.
Love realizes we are worthy not because of what we do, or don't do, or what others do or don't do, but because of who we are.
Trusting LOVE is so hard to do. It's hard to accept. Our judgments of others in my opinion are a relfection/mirror of ourselves, and how little or how lacking in faith we still are in God's LOVE. How much we hate ourselves.
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to
know the love of Christ, which
passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all
the fulness of God. Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
any thots?
Quote1. Did you or anyone else address just the scriptures I referenced from 1 Tim? Since you didn't am I to assume that you approve of slavery since Paul didn't comdemn it? Have you recently silenced a woman who dared to speak during church? Do you have any divorced friends who have remarried? All I am saying is that it is not acceptable, practical or reasonable to apply all of Pauls instructions to the early church in this age and thusly we are forced to make choices.
The following can't be interpreted to be under the heading of "instruction". It's not malleable according to cultural nor historic setting. I believe it to be an eternal, non-negotiable truth:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
And God will adhere to it, and He expects those of the faith to adhere also by separating themselves from those who practice such in an on-going unrepentant state. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor%205:12-13;&version=49;)
Quote2. Forgive for failing to meet the scripture to opinion ratio, I must have missed that rule in the forum guideline.
I wasn't posting a forum rule. Listening to scripture above a man's contrived opinions is just a guidline
I try to follow. Anyway, the times that you
do reference scripture, it seems it's for the purpose of negating scripture.
Quote3. I would be astonished if you really meant to suggest that the Bible is not an acceptable guideline for me to follow. You and I both know that anyone could cut and paste Bible verses to build a case for any position..including ET.
Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?
Quote28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Just a guess here, but I think Paul means everybody.
Yeah, I heard Mike Williams try to sell this "no male or female, so Paul must be looking past our 'sexuality'", too. But c'mon, Bob- do you really think Paul, who was speaking to the converted, was honestly trying to convey an "anything goes" policy with this statement, especially in light of the Corinthians 6 passage I posted above?
As harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.
Quote from: ken on October 18, 2007, 06:04:09 AM
As harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.
for me, it's just the opposite. Makes me want to serve him. Makes me want to share his love and grace to others, to be a minister of grace and love.
to quit hiding, to quit fearing. to trust LOVE
Quote from: laren on October 18, 2007, 06:20:27 AM
Quote from: ken on October 18, 2007, 06:04:09 AM
As harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.
for me, it's just the opposite. Makes me want to serve him. Makes me want to share his love and grace to others, to be a minister of grace and love.
to quit hiding, to quit fearing. to trust LOVE
In the context of the discussion, the question is whether open rebellion/sin is acceptable for the believer in Christ, and does God or doesn't He condone it or allow it within those who profess to be in Him.
Just because I believe that God is loving enough to spare all of His creation from eternal damnation, it doesn't mean I think sin will be winked at, and I don't by any means think that unrepented of sins such as murder and adultry will go unpunished.
For me, it's just incredibly hard to not look at a person, and see beneath the fig skin of shame, guilt, fear, anger etc. at their heart.
I believe at the core of all of us is Christ. Awakening to him, in my opinion is salvation. For me, we're in a world/kosmos of grace. Old has been taken care of. New is here to stay.
I work with a openly gay man at work, who would give you the shirt off his back. He would go the extra mile. He is the good samaritan. And i've been around many "believers" who are stuck in their own pride, self serving attitude and don't have any problem pointing out other's sins. Beneath both exteriors is LOVE imo.
QuoteCan you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?
Functioning member ?
Even according to this shortened list, I'm out.
The Gal 5 list is quite a bit longer and what I'm wondering is... who could possibly be in?
Now the works of the flesh are evident which are:
adultry
fornication
uncleanness
licentiousness
idolatry
sorcery
hatred
contentions
jealousies
angers
selfish ambitions
dissensions
heresies
envy
murders
drunkeness
revelries
I just love this next and last one...the everybody one.
AND THE LIKE
Every Religious preacher I have known [including me] has preached his own sin. Preached against what they themselves were being held captive by. And...IMO, in this...they fueled the desire within to do more of that which they preached against...
They preached shame unto themselves and shame has no power to heal the wounded or to mend the broken hearted.. When I shame myself or others...I wound and harm and hate and murder and I contribute to the BINDING of myself and others to their despair. The Gospel is NOT a message of SHAME...but, it is a message of HOPE and its promise is FREEDOM. IMO...Religion is SHAME oriented and it is an abomination to deliver such an EVIL...in the name of God.. to God's greatest creation...human beings.
Dean
Quote from: Dean on October 18, 2007, 07:23:11 AM
QuoteCan you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?
Functioning member ?
Even according to this shortened list ...I'm out
The Gal 5 list is quite a bit longer and what I'm wondering is... who could possibly be in?
Now the works of the flesh are evident which are:
adultry
fornication
uncleanness
licentiousness
idolatry
sorcery
hatred
contentions
jealousies
angers
selfish ambitions
dissensions
heresies
envy
murders
drunkeness
revelries
I just love this next and last one...the everybody one.
AND THE LIKE
Every Religious preacher I have known [including me] has preached his own sin. Preached against what they themselves were being held captive by. And...IMO, in this...they fueled the desire within to do more of that which they preached against...
They preached shame unto themselves and shame has no power to heal the wounded or to mend the broken hearted.. When I shame myself or others...I wound and harm and murder and I contribute to the BINDING of myself and others to their sin. The Gospel is NOT a message of SHAME...but, it is a message of HOPE and its promise is FREEDOM. Religion is SHAME oriented and it is an abomination to deliver such an EVIL...in the name of God.. to God's greatest creation...human beings.
Dean
Thank you Dean for the message. It has been a long haul for me to be pulled out of the "shame on you" message. I still deep iside struggle with hatred of my self, denying the child of God I am. I still look outward at others sins to pamper myself. But by the power of God's grace, he is pulling me up, to higher ground.
Yes indeed, a message of freedom.
Just to set the record straight, all I know of Mike Williams is that he teaches UR, and based on what Ken said accepts homosexuals into his fellowship. So none of what I have written is based on Mike Williams as I have very little knowledge what he teaches.
QuoteAs harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.
So you postulate that God does not love us, or provide His saving grace, while we are sinners or sinning? Or that there is a limit to his forgiveness and grace?
Romans 5:10
QuoteFor if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the
death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 So that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
QuoteCan you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?
Only in a general way as Grace is provided to everyone as often and to the degree necessary for (see the preceding verses) fitness for eventual reunification with God in Heaven (after possibly passing through the Gods refining fire).
Can God
use imperfect, sin committing men of little faith and even less wisdom? I certainly hope so. [will insert verses later..I am getting tired]
As chaotic as it may sound I am called to minister in love and service. God is in charge of correction and justice.
All mankind does with technology is to ever increasingly try to bring into realization the Image of God, over all as Master of all. The nature of God who sees all and hears all and is everywhere present is a drive within humans to copy. Transportation and communication we attempt to push into the instantaneous everywhere. Flying or Scuba diving is only applying subtler laws of nature or they could not be done. They are extensions of our abilities similar to microscopes or cell phones.
The issue is human sexual nature. Male and female produce offspring. Just because someone doesn't want to go against a nasty habit they find pleasurable they claim it's their nature when it's actually against their nature. Male and male or female and female produce no offspring so by exercising sexuality in that context they are actually against sexuality, in particular, their own. The idea God is our servant to fulfill whatever fleshy lust we agree with one another to normalize will shortly be corrected. Hitler is dead. Stalin is dead. Mao is dead. To be Jesus disciples is to deny ourselves.
bhark said, quote: My point is that once we start categorizing, ranking and classifying sins we end up with the same old Law and dead religious practices that have failed for all of human history.
To say that righteousness has failed is a lack of paying attention to your own as well as the rest of human history, including the history of the true dark age of mankind, the 20th Century which many of us somehow survived. 134 or 135 million killed in peace time by their own friends and neighbors! This doesn't include the war dead. "The law is for the lawless." But we should accept that the lusts of the flesh should not be inhibited because why?!
What the record often shows is a falsification of Christian values by those who claim to know what the true Christianity is while hating those who love and obey Jesus resulting in the persecution of the Church. An example of what is so prevalent in society today is the following excerpt from bhark: If the stoning begins they will get us both...This is not being advocated by the Bible believers. All those killed by what can be considered Christianity in 2,000 years, including the excesses of the later Inquisition and the Crusades are fewer than those killed by the Aztecs religion in 2 years. 1 out of 7 of Hawaiians were killed by their religion, often for their laws of tabu. Yet many claim their noble primitivism was corrupted by Christians missionaries. The closest thing to a Christian army that ever existed is the Knights Templar, and they were really more like security guards for Holy Land Tours in their day.
Mein Kampf by Hitler was one of the two most influential books creating Nazi Germany. The other? Isis Unveiled by Madam Blavatsky. It presented a sort of Roman Catholic Christianity as hijacking the real teachings of Jesus that were supposed to be very similar to Hindu and yogic doctrine and practice. According to Max Dimont in God, Jews and History 7 million Christians were killed by the Nazis as well as 6 million Jews. How well do you understand why? Most popular presentations of that period I've encountered do not tell us. Briefly, they believed that to filter decisions through a conscience rather than direct channeling of personality subverted human nature. "Follow the force, young Luke." An example is the conscienceless mowing down of any opposition by an Arian Rambo ideal. Did you know that most of the "Storm Troopers" (whose uniforms had a diagonal "belt" from shoulder to opposite hip) were homosexual?" The S.S. was formed to counter their power. Then the "gay" military leaders were assassinated in "The Night of the Long Knives." (According to Time-Life books.)
A couple weeks following 9/11 the entire front page of a section of "The Miami Herald" had a picture of a bayonet as the upright member of a cross. The basic thrust of the article was to equate Moslem Fundamentalism with Fundamentalist Christianity. This sort of demonizing of Christians by certain professors and journalists has really picked up speed in the last few years. They're trying to popularize the idea of a Christian conspiracy to overthrow the government and install a theocracy in the USA. Of course the first thing they're supposed to do is cart off the homosexuals, according to the popularizers of this propaganda. This is in the time of a P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act looking for terrorist cells while approaching half the Christians are meeting in their homes. Does anybody else see a problem brewing?
Preterism doesn't eliminate the same words pertaining to past actions from having present and future applications. An example is Sarah, the wife of Abraham. Just because she lived and died 4,000 years ago doesn't mean that's the end of the usefulness of the record concerning her. For instance, she's Mount Zion (a kingdom) and a covenental conception. (cp., Gal 4:21-5:1) The words remain after we've gone down various trails of meaning to follow other trails. The words continue to inspire recognition of new things, inward and outward.
Or you can recongize God does not see you according to your sins, but you are still responsible when you are aware of them to give them to God.
There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, so the judgment is always the Lords. So should we sin because we are under grace? Why does this always come back around in circles. That is an immature view! The reality is, if we are mature, we will sin guarunteed, but out of ignorance and weakness; if we are immature, we would sin out of willingness and pride storing up God's wrath which will humble us again and again until we gain maturity. If we use our freedom to sin, we will be slave to it once again, forgetting we were bought with a price. We are going to be discplined every time we do wrong, there is no escaping this; however, we are being treated as Children of God concerning this discipline and not rejected for it. That does not mean we go out and sin.
People who excuse sin because it is being part of human nature and embrace it, are those who have been cut off from the Head and become bad company corrupting good character. I do not say this in judgment, I say this in fact. Our freedom is not found in performing sin, the more we perfom in sin, the more we harden our heart, the more we harden our heart, God will harden it more, giving us over to our sinful desires and we will be worse off then if we never knew the way of righteousness at all.
I say, grab hold of spirit of grace and recognize there is no approval found in performing sin. Just because we sin, does not excuse our sin Such behaviors keep the Children of God in bondage. To state the truth is not judgment, because I do not know the reasons a man sins to judge him, nor do I know his heart or intentions to weigh all the facts.
So let us not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. Then we will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will. As long as we have remained conformed to the thinking of this world, we will not know Him and no, we will not be a functioning member within the Body of Christ for we will have lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
When will we nolonger be in need of milk and begin to eat the meat? Why do we have to be continaully taught the elementary principles over and over again. Why are we still being an infant, not aquainted with the teaching about righteousness?
The meat is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish between good and evil. The milk is for the immature, who needs someone to teach them the elementary truths of God's word all over again.
Remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to us, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide us, who follow mere insticts and do not have the Spirit. So be mercifcul to those who doubt, snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear-hating even the clothing stained by corruption. Do not be afraid to stand firm and bold on what is true.
To Him who is able to keep you from falling and present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy, to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forever.
Craig
Quote from: laren on October 18, 2007, 07:16:42 AM
For me, it's just incredibly hard to not look at a person, and see beneath the fig skin of shame, guilt, fear, anger etc. at their heart. ...
I work with a openly gay man at work, who would give you the shirt off his back. He would go the extra mile. He is the good samaritan. And i've been around many "believers" who are stuck in their own pride, self serving attitude and don't have any problem pointing out other's sins. Beneath both exteriors is LOVE imo.
It sounds like you're into karma. Do you believe you'll receive mercy as long as your "good outweighs your bad"? It's just what I'm seeing, here.
The man is openly gay. He could be a better samaritan than the good samaritan himself and he is still in complete rebellion, still outside the Kingdom, and still liable and bound for punishment if he doesn't repent.
Quote from: Dean on October 18, 2007, 07:23:11 AM
QuoteCan you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?
Functioning member ?
Even according to this shortened list, I'm out.
The list is quoted out of context. Paul was characterizing the works of the flesh. It's not a list of bad people who "don't get in". Although, if you don't live by the spirit, and you succumb to those works of the flesh with no remorse (yes I said it;
remorse- it proceeds
humility and
repentance) you will very surely find yourself "out", as far as God's concerned. And His is the only opinion that matters.
If that "shames" you, it's because there's "guilt". They go hand in hand. You don't have to stay in "shame". Submit to God. Resist the devil. You'll be free of the guilt, and consequently the shame. :)
Just to make sure we have not lost perspective here. My focus in this discussion was and is the applictation of spritual correctness and judgment. We don't live in a theocracy, we have civil and criminal justice system in most societies. We have remedies and punishments for just about every major and minor infraction (excluding most spiritual areas).
I believe Iran and Saudi Arabia live in some kind of modified theocratic system. Do we really want advocate for a system where people are tortured and imprisioned for exercising freedom of religion or even freedom in fashion?
Those "practicing" murder, mayhem, violent crimes and civil crimes (thievery, swindlering) are tried and punished (deservedly so) in our earthly court systems. Are those same people covered by Grace, of course, but that does not excuse them from societal punishment.
When I spoke of the "law" in previous posts I spoke of Mosiac law as it applies to believers. Not civil law as it applies to everyone.
I have no problem at all in supporing law and order. Believe me if someone breaks down my front door and makes any attempt at harming my grandchildren I have no problem at all in stopping them by any means possible and seeing that he is tried and convicted in a court of law for his crime. At the same I would visit him (or others like him) in jail and try to help him know the love of God so his tormented life can end and his life in Christ can begin.
QuoteMale and male or female and female produce no offspring so by exercising sexuality in that context they are actually against sexuality, in particular, their own
Couples who use birth control produce no offspring either, are they against their sexuality?
QuoteTo say that righteousness has failed is a lack of paying attention to your own as well as the rest of human history,
I never said righteousness has failed. I think I might have said in a previous post that the law never produced righteousness.
QuoteGal 2: 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
QuoteAn example of what is so prevalent in society today is the following excerpt from bhark: If the stoning begins they will get us both...This is not being advocated by the Bible believers.
As I am sure you know I was using a metaphor.
QuoteRomans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Quote from: ken on October 18, 2007, 09:14:44 AM
Quote from: Dean on October 18, 2007, 07:23:11 AM
QuoteCan you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?
Functioning member ?
Even according to this shortened list, I'm out.
The list is quoted out of context. Paul was characterizing the works of the flesh. It's not a list of bad people who "don't get in". Although, if you don't live by the spirit, and you succumb to those works of the flesh with no remorse (yes I said it; remorse- it proceeds humility and repentance) you will very surely find yourself "out", as far as God's concerned. And His is the only opinion that matters.
If that "shames" you, it's because there's "guilt". They go hand in hand. You don't have to stay in "shame". Submit to God. Resist the devil. You'll be free of the guilt, and consequently the shame. :)
I have already admited to being ...out...according to your list.
What I wondered was...who [that would include you] according to these lists could possibly be ...in?
IMO...the lists are clear that everybody is ...out...that is their purpose.
Religion says deny the parts of the list that ARE you and focus your judgements on those parts that ARE NOT. I think judging... does exactly what it was designed to do and I have found that this sick and unhealthy behavior is REAL hard.. to 'put away'.
IMO..judging others is addictive because it works just like a drug. It produces the I'm better than ...I'm superior to and shuts off the very human feelings of I'm less than ...inferior to. Most cannot stand those feelings...so they do what works and judging works..until, if they are fortunate... just like the drugs, the judging becomes ineffective. Of course...religion says christians are not human...real ones do not do the lists...when in fact, all humans..including Christians ..do the lists...and God still loves them exactly as they are... and wonder of wonders they remain ...in.
The saying goes.."although God loves us exactly as we are..He also loves us to much to leave us as we are". The difference being that where Religion was ineffective in changing me..in that it uses SHAME...God is effective in actually changing me..in that He has named His Gospel..the Gospel of GRACE.
Guilt is about what I do. Shame is a false belief about what I think I am. It is the very large difference between doing a mistake and believing I'm a mistake. One is God's view of me and the other is religions.
You are of course free to take what you like and leave the rest.
Laren, thank you for your GRACE filled posts and your kind words.
Dean
Quote from: Craig on October 18, 2007, 08:52:46 PM
Quote from: Dean on October 18, 2007, 07:47:40 PM
I have already admited to being ...out...according to your list.
Dean, you took ken out of context, and manipulated his words. Dean, ken asked you for:
QuoteCan you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?
Since you did not listen, he is not responsible nor accountable for your answer. Nor does he have to answer you according to your ////////.
I will wait to address your ////////, because it is such a woozy, I need to get administration involved to guide it.
It is one thing to follow me around...it is quite another to tailgate me. Tailgating is dangerous BULLY like behavior that THREATENS the safety of others... and it is NOT OK with me. As an EX Paramedic...my experience suggests that tailgaters might best consider slowing down and take a deep breath... maybe even pull over and take a time out... cause the consequences to tailgating are often...very messy...even bloody.
Can we please soften the back-bitting a bit, I know there is a way to discuss this without shooting personal assaults and getting angry at each other.... :HeartThrob:
PEACE :girlheart:
Quote from: Dean on October 18, 2007, 07:47:40 PM
Functioning member ?
Even according to this shortened list, I'm out.
I have already admited to being ...out...according to your list.
What I wondered was...who [that would include you] according to these lists could possibly be ...in?
IMO...the lists are clear that everybody is ...out...that is their purpose.
Religion says deny the parts of the list that ARE you and focus your judgements on those parts that ARE NOT. I think judging... does exactly what it was designed to do and I have found that this sick and unhealthy behavior is REAL hard.. to 'put away'.
IMO..judging others is addictive because it works just like a drug. It produces the I'm better than ...I'm superior to and shuts off the very human feelings of I'm less than ...inferior to. Most cannot stand those feelings...so they do what works and judging works..until, if they are fortunate... just like the drugs, the judging becomes ineffective. Of course...religion says christians are not human...real ones do not do the lists...when in fact, all humans..including Christians ..do the lists...and God still loves them exactly as they are... and wonder of wonders they remain ...in.
The saying goes.."although God loves us exactly as we are..He also loves us to much to leave us as we are". The difference being that where Religion was ineffective in changing me..in that it uses SHAME...God is effective in actually changing me..in that He has named His Gospel..the Gospel of GRACE.
Guilt is about what I do. Shame is a false belief about what I think I am. It is the very large difference between doing a mistake and believing I'm a mistake. One is God's view of me and the other is religions.
You are of course free to take what you like and leave the rest.
Laren, thank you for your GRACE filled posts and your kind words.
Dean
Hi Dean,
I agree with you. It's not how we live nor what we do in life that gets us saved but what Jesus did that counts. I have been guilty of judging others, like homosexuals by being disgusted with them. I have also been guilty of looking down on other religions as far as thinking how wrong they were. I judged them and condemmed them. Not they I thought they wouldn't be saved but that they just wasn't right and I was. Now I know, to look down on these religions or homosexuals is really looking down on God because it is he who causes them to exist and be the way they are in the first place. He could change either one of them in an instant and someday when it is time for Him to, He will.
Just thought I would throw in my two cents. :2c:
CHB
This heated discussion has evolved into basically the same conflict Paul had with Peter. Do we live by Grace or by the Law?
Those of us on the Grace side say if Grace is sufficient for our eventual heavenly reward it ought to be our guide here on earth in our relations with each other.
Those of the law side (meaning some teachings of Paul primarily) say we are not doing anyone any favors if we don't exercise our spiritual maturity to correct a believer who is continuing in certain sins. And further we should not even assoiciate with them as they are not fit for service in the body. Once they have repented they are welcome again in the body.
Please don't attack me if I did not reflect your exact position.
If Paul and Peter had problems I suspect we will also.
Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
...and that was how the WWF got started. (just kidding)
Gal 1:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
I agree, however let's remember!
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Got Milk Fruit?
Paul