Mike Williams Resources

[laren]

Bob,

Your posts are always nice and warm and fuzzy. We all just want to love everybody. I whole-heartedly agree with you that the "the least of these" (meth addicts, prostitutes, etc.) should get front-seat to the gospel.

But it seems like you're determined to follow your own logic and human reasoning in deference to God's Word. I see comparisons and analogies born out of your intellect, but very little of scripture to support your beliefs. I could be wrong, but I get the sense that any attempt at using scripture to base a belief on is tantamount to legalism for you.

The Bible is plain that there are categories of sin, as well as differing degrees of punishment for sins, but you've shown in previous posts that the Bible isn't an acceptible guideline for you to follow, i.e. "it's irrelevant because everyone wants to pick and choose what scriptures we want to follow," etc..

So what we're left with is your opinion against what the Bible says. All I can say is "let God be true, and every man a liar".

When I first heard Mike and listened to him, I felt the spirit in me leap for joy.  But I agree, his message is not in line in my opinion of the new testament.  To me, the new testament message is obediance and performance. 

Agape Love, to me is living in the presence of HIS complete acceptance, with no performance necessary.  Living in the complete awareness of his grace.  There is no shame, no hiding, no feelings of rejection, and no need to prove worthiness.  Complete acceptance of who we are.   

Is this how God truly sees us as defined in the new testament.  Are we to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, or are we already transformed.  Are we to live a life pleasing to God, or are we already pleasing in God's sight?

I believe the new testament teaches a gospel of working out our salvation with fear and trembling.  That we are to be transformed into his image.  We are to add to our faith, to walk by the spirit, to put to death the deeds of the flesh, and remain faithful so we can be counted worthy.  We all want that special day where we hear, "well done thy good and faithful servant".  The Holy Spirit is our strength to guide us into obedience.  But, obedience is key.  If you love him, you will obey him.  Faith without works is dead. 

Rom 1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name;

2Co 7:15  And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

2Co 10:5  Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

2Co 10:6  And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Heb 5:8  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

1Pe 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.


I believe the new testament message is one of performance, but not through the works of the flesh; but through the power of the Holy Spirit. 

A few examples are as follows: 

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

1Th 2:12  That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2Th 1:11  Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

There are numerous other examples of Paul, James, Peter, and John exorting for Christians to live a life pleasing to God.  There are examples of how one can fall from grace

Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:23  Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

Heb 10:24  And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

1Co 10:5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1Co 10:6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1Co 10:7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

1Co 10:8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1Co 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1Co 10:12  Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovable in his sight:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 1:11  For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

The message is strive and perform.  Do the best you can to be counted worthy.  Not by following the law, but by staying faithful to the faith of Christ.  Trusting him for your strength, your power source. 

To me, this does not sound like a gospel of complete acceptance from God.  It's sounds like a gospel of performance. 

Paul, Peter, James and John continually pleaded for his audience to keep hope.  Hope for the return of Christ, hope for the full adoption, and to receive our inheritance.  Hope for healing. 

Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Col 1:5  For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven;

Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Th 2:19  For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation.

Tit 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Heb 3:6  But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Heb 6:11  And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

1Pe 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:13  Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought (yet future, grace yet to be brought) unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

For me, based on the new testament, we are to live a life by the spirit, hoping and patiently enduring to the end.  So that at the coming of Christ (the second coming) we will receive our full adoption and healing. 


   However, what if, the new testament gospel has already been fufilled. 

What if, Paul, John, Peter, and James (as well as Christ during his earthly ministry) were talking of a fufilled end time, and return of Christ that would occur during the life of themselves.  Not in the long future (ie: 2000+ years later). 

Could this be possible? 

Could the second coming of Christ already occurred, could the wrath of God have happened, including the tribulation, 1000 year reign, great white throne judgment, lake of fire?  Is satan defeated, is death destroyed?  Are we no longer under grace, but in grace??  Is Christ now King over all the earth, or just over those with faith? 

This has led me to a study of preterism.  And if preterism is true, then I say Mike has a great message.  One of compelte acceptance, one of no performance necessary.  One of fulfilled LOVE

Could it be possible God is all in all now. 


Just a process that I have been going through.

[ken]

I agree Laren that the NT does compel performance.  Something that's utterly discouraging when I see it in the natural. But when I just read the scrips you posted through spiritual eyes I was invigorated.  It's not me, it's Him!!!  That's the gospel! That's the grace!   :HeartThrob:

I appreciate your posting those scriptures, by the way.  :thumbsup:

I delved a little in preterism for a while but the inconsistencies (a few less-than-minor problems) I saw made me lose interest. Of course, that's the same effect I got when I first looked into UR, so maybe I'll go back and have another look for myself.

[Craig]

Amen Laren. Good points.

I agree Laren that the NT does compel performance.  Something that's utterly discouraging when I see it in the natural. But when I just read the scrips you posted through spiritual eyes I was invigorated.  It's not me, it's Him!!!  That's the gospel! That's the grace!   :HeartThrob:

I appreciate your posting those scriptures, by the way.  :thumbsup:

I delved a little in preterism for a while but the inconsistencies (a few less-than-minor problems) I saw made me lose interest. Of course, that's the same effect I got when I first looked into UR, so maybe I'll go back and have another look for myself.

Aweseome Ken! :) When it comes to Preterism, I can't speak for Laren, but I know that we agree on a lot so it is my experience that much of what "Orthodox Preterism" teaches can be debunked quite easy because of those less-than-minor problems. Yet, when it comes to the promises and much of Scripture fulfilled that is the truth. We are currently living in those promises which grow and grow and grow, never ceasing in glory, so we can never attain this perfection on our own. Let alone say what most preterist proclaim, that everything has come to pass there is not much more than this. The fact, which I agree with most preterists concerning, is the New Testament is explaining how the Types and Shadows have all been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. So knowing this, we must recognize the Old Testament and everything in it, has been fulfilled already. There is no more promises the Old Testament gives us, that has not already been fulfilled...and that is where most unfortunately preterists stop.

The Truth, is although the Old has passed away, the New has come! The new will never get old, it keeps going from glory to glory. Now, we are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, a promise of the Old Testament; however, now we live in the promises of perpetual priest Jesus Christ. There is the Law of God in Christ Jesus, which contains within it the everlasting promises of Eternal Life and Immortality and of life-giving Spirit! Jesus Christ, who did not come to destroy the Law, but fulfill it and fulfill it He did So now we live in the newness of life.

So, although everything of the Old has been fulfilled in Christ, we are now presently being built up in Christ, presently experiencing the promises and hope which many did not see in the Types and Shadows. It will continue to go on even after we have passed from this world. In otherwords, He is what was and is and is to come. Something that is very hard to comprehend, because everyone want to be sure of the end and beginning and do not realize that is Jesus Christ, the Almighty God, the Alpha and Omega is percisely that!

So now we can WALK in that performance, and we are REWARDED for our obedience. It is not an issue of works, it is an issue of glory. He has already completed what was required for reconciliation and salvation, but we now walk as Ambassadors doing the good works He has called us to do, that means gifts, that means miracles, that means living for God not for self.

There is more promises in Jesus Christ, then what the Types and Shadows promised. There is more hope in Jesus Christ, then the hope of Jesus Christ! This is powerful if someone can grasp it.

[bhark54]

but very little of scripture to support your beliefs

but you've shown in previous posts (and in your current post) that the Bible isn't an acceptible guideline for you to follow

1.  Did you or anyone else address just the scriptures I referenced from 1 Tim?  Since you didn't am I to assume that you approve of slavery since Paul didn't comdemn it?  Have you recently silenced a woman who dared to speak during church?  Do you have any divorced friends who have remarried?   All I am saying is that it is not acceptable, practical or reasonable to apply all of Pauls instructions to the early church in this age and thusly we are forced to make choices.

2. Forgive for failing to meet the scripture to opinion ratio, I must have missed that rule in the forum guideline.

3.  I would be astonished if you really meant to suggest that the Bible is not an acceptable guideline for me to follow.  You and I both know that anyone could cut and paste Bible verses to build a case for any position..including ET.

Some thoughts from Galatians

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,

25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.   Just a guess here, but I think Paul means everybody.
4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace

And this is the Biggie!
13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So if it makes everyone happy before I preside over my next church council meeting I will ask that those who might be "continuing in sin" to leave the meeting, but to hang around so that I can take them out to dinner after the meeting.   Hope I am still warm and fuzzy, my grandkids particularly like that attribute. 

As always in Grace and Love

Bob

[laren]

And this is the Biggie!

14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."


As always in Grace and Love

Bob

This is an interesting verse to me.  Love your neighbor as yourself. 

As yourself.

This goes back to an earlier post I had.  I don't know if I'm correct, but it makes sense to me. 

All who eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, judge themselves, God, and others by this knowledge.

As soon as we partake of this knowledge, just like Adam and Eve, we fear God/LOVE and hide.  Through judging ourselves we soon hate ourselves.  In judging the hard world we live in we soon hate God.  In judging others, we soon become prideful. 

Oh, if we only would trust in LOVE, we could come out of hiding, stop judging and start seeing we all are in this together.   

To be open, and to be vulnerable means we have to quit hiding, quit pretending. This in my opinion is only possible when we eat of the tree of LOVE. Love transcends all judgments of good and evil.

Love realizes we are worthy not because of what we do, or don't do, or what others do or don't do, but because of who we are.

Trusting LOVE is so hard to do.  It's hard to accept. Our judgments of others in my opinion are a relfection/mirror of ourselves, and how little or how lacking in faith we still are in God's LOVE.  How much we hate ourselves.

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;


Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,


Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

any thots?

[ken]

1.  Did you or anyone else address just the scriptures I referenced from 1 Tim?  Since you didn't am I to assume that you approve of slavery since Paul didn't comdemn it?  Have you recently silenced a woman who dared to speak during church?  Do you have any divorced friends who have remarried?   All I am saying is that it is not acceptable, practical or reasonable to apply all of Pauls instructions to the early church in this age and thusly we are forced to make choices.

The following can't be interpreted to be under the heading of "instruction". It's not malleable according to cultural nor historic setting. I believe it to be an eternal, non-negotiable truth:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.


And God will adhere to it, and He expects those of the faith to adhere also by separating themselves from those who practice such in an on-going unrepentant state.

2. Forgive for failing to meet the scripture to opinion ratio, I must have missed that rule in the forum guideline.

I wasn't posting a forum rule. Listening to scripture above a man's contrived opinions is just a guidline I try to follow.  Anyway, the times that you do reference scripture, it seems it's for the purpose of negating scripture.

3.  I would be astonished if you really meant to suggest that the Bible is not an acceptable guideline for me to follow.  You and I both know that anyone could cut and paste Bible verses to build a case for any position..including ET.

Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.   Just a guess here, but I think Paul means everybody.

Yeah, I heard Mike Williams try to sell this "no male or female, so Paul must be looking past our 'sexuality'", too.  But c'mon, Bob- do you really think Paul, who was speaking to the converted, was honestly trying to convey an "anything goes" policy with this statement, especially in light of the Corinthians 6 passage I posted above?

As harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.

[laren]

As harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.

for me, it's just the opposite.  Makes me want to serve him.  Makes me want to share his love and grace to others, to be a minister of grace and love.   

to quit hiding, to quit fearing.  to trust LOVE

[ken]

As harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.

for me, it's just the opposite.  Makes me want to serve him.  Makes me want to share his love and grace to others, to be a minister of grace and love.   

to quit hiding, to quit fearing.  to trust LOVE

In the context of the discussion, the question is whether open rebellion/sin is acceptable for the believer in Christ, and does God or doesn't He condone it or allow it within those who profess to be in Him.

Just because I believe that God is loving enough to spare all of His creation from eternal damnation, it doesn't mean I think sin will be winked at, and I don't by any means think that unrepented of sins such as murder and adultry will go unpunished.

[laren]

For me, it's just incredibly hard to not look at a person, and see beneath the fig skin of shame, guilt, fear, anger etc. at their heart. 

I believe at the core of all of us is Christ.  Awakening to him, in my opinion is salvation.  For me, we're in a world/kosmos of grace.  Old has been taken care of.  New is here to stay. 

I work with a openly gay man at work, who would give you the shirt off his back.  He would go the extra mile.  He is the good samaritan.  And i've been around many "believers" who are stuck in their own pride, self serving attitude and don't have any problem pointing out other's sins.  Beneath both exteriors is LOVE imo. 

[Dean]

Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?

Functioning member ?

Even according to this shortened list,           I'm out.

The Gal 5 list is quite a bit longer and what I'm wondering is... who could possibly be in?

Now the works of the flesh are evident which are:
                       
adultry
fornication
uncleanness
licentiousness
idolatry
sorcery
hatred
contentions
jealousies
angers
selfish ambitions
dissensions
heresies
envy
murders
drunkeness
revelries

I just love this next and last one...the everybody one.

AND THE LIKE

Every Religious preacher I have known [including me] has preached his own sin. Preached against what they themselves were being held captive by. And...IMO, in this...they fueled the desire within to do more of that which they preached against...

They preached shame unto themselves and shame has no power to heal the wounded or to mend the broken hearted.. When I shame myself or others...I wound and harm and hate and murder and I contribute to the BINDING of myself and others to their despair. The Gospel is NOT a message of SHAME...but,  it is a message of HOPE and its promise is FREEDOM. IMO...Religion is SHAME oriented and it is an abomination to deliver such an EVIL...in the name of God.. to God's greatest creation...human beings.


Dean

[laren]

Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?

Functioning member ?

Even according to this shortened list           ...I'm out

The Gal 5 list is quite a bit longer and what I'm wondering is... who could possibly be in?

Now the works of the flesh are evident which are:
                       
adultry
fornication
uncleanness
licentiousness
idolatry
sorcery
hatred
contentions
jealousies
angers
selfish ambitions
dissensions
heresies
envy
murders
drunkeness
revelries

I just love this next and last one...the everybody one.

AND THE LIKE

Every Religious preacher I have known [including me] has preached his own sin. Preached against what they themselves were being held captive by. And...IMO, in this...they fueled the desire within to do more of that which they preached against...

They preached shame unto themselves and shame has no power to heal the wounded or to mend the broken hearted.. When I shame myself or others...I wound and harm and murder and I contribute to the BINDING of myself and others to their sin. The Gospel is NOT a message of SHAME...but,  it is a message of HOPE and its promise is FREEDOM. Religion is SHAME oriented and it is an abomination to deliver such an EVIL...in the name of God.. to God's greatest creation...human beings.


Dean

Thank you Dean for the message.  It has been a long haul for me to be pulled out of the "shame on you" message.  I still deep iside struggle with hatred of my self, denying the child of God I am.  I still look outward at others sins to pamper myself.  But by the power of God's grace, he is pulling me up, to higher ground.   

Yes indeed, a message of freedom.

[bhark54]

Just to set the record straight, all I know of Mike Williams is that he teaches UR, and based on what Ken said accepts homosexuals into his fellowship.  So none of what I have written is based on Mike Williams as I have very little knowledge what he teaches. 

As harsh as it may seem, God may not distinguish between male and female, Greek and Jew, but you can bet He still distinguishes between the repentant and the rebellious. If that's not true of Him, then I don't want to serve Him. It means we're operating on total chaos, nobody accountable or responsible- an anarchist's dream.

So you postulate that God does not love us, or provide His saving grace, while we are sinners or sinning?  Or that there is a limit to his forgiveness and grace?
Romans 5:10

For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the
death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
21 So that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?

Only in a general way as Grace is provided to everyone as often and to the degree necessary for (see the preceding verses) fitness for eventual reunification with God in Heaven (after possibly passing through the Gods refining fire).

Can God use imperfect, sin committing men of little faith and even less wisdom?  I certainly hope so.  [will insert verses later..I am getting tired]

As chaotic as it may sound I am called to minister in love and service.  God is in charge of correction and justice.   

[reFORMer]

All mankind does with technology is to ever increasingly try to bring into realization the Image of God, over all as Master of all.  The nature of God who sees all and hears all and is everywhere present is a drive within humans to copy.  Transportation and communication we attempt to push into the instantaneous everywhere.  Flying or Scuba diving is only applying subtler laws of nature or they could not be done.  They are extensions of our abilities similar to microscopes or cell phones.

The issue is human sexual nature.  Male and female produce offspring.  Just because someone doesn't want to go against a nasty habit they find pleasurable they claim it's their nature when it's actually against their nature.  Male and male or female and female produce no offspring so by exercising sexuality in that context they are actually against sexuality, in particular, their own.  The idea God is our servant to fulfill whatever fleshy lust we agree with one another to normalize will shortly be corrected.  Hitler is dead.  Stalin is dead.  Mao is dead.  To be Jesus disciples is to deny ourselves.

bhark said, quote:  My point is that once we start categorizing, ranking and classifying sins we end up with the same old Law and dead religious practices that have failed for all of human history.
To say that righteousness has failed is a lack of paying attention to your own as well as the rest of human history, including the history of the true dark age of mankind, the 20th Century which many of us somehow survived.  134 or 135 million killed in peace time by their own friends and neighbors!  This doesn't include the war dead.  "The law is for the lawless."  But we should accept that the lusts of the flesh should not be inhibited because why?!

What the record often shows is a falsification of Christian values by those who claim to know what the true Christianity is while hating those who love and obey Jesus resulting in the persecution of the Church.  An example of what is so prevalent in society today is the following excerpt from bhark:  If the stoning begins they will get us both...This is not being advocated by the Bible believers.  All those killed by what can be considered Christianity in 2,000 years, including the excesses of the later Inquisition and the Crusades are fewer than those killed by the Aztecs religion in 2 years.  1 out of 7 of Hawaiians were killed by their religion, often for their laws of tabu.  Yet many claim their noble primitivism was corrupted by Christians missionaries.  The closest thing to a Christian army that ever existed is the Knights Templar, and they were really more like security guards for Holy Land Tours in their day.

Mein Kampf by Hitler was one of the two most influential books creating Nazi Germany.  The other?  Isis Unveiled by Madam Blavatsky.  It presented a sort of Roman Catholic Christianity as hijacking the real teachings of Jesus that were supposed to be very similar to Hindu and yogic doctrine and practice.  According to Max Dimont in God, Jews and History 7 million Christians were killed by the Nazis as well as 6 million Jews.  How well do you understand why?  Most popular presentations of that period I've encountered do not tell us.  Briefly, they believed that to filter decisions through a conscience rather than direct channeling of personality subverted human nature.  "Follow the force, young Luke."  An example is the conscienceless mowing down of any opposition by an Arian Rambo ideal.  Did you know that most of the "Storm Troopers" (whose uniforms had a diagonal "belt" from shoulder to opposite hip) were homosexual?"  The S.S. was formed to counter their power.  Then the "gay" military leaders were assassinated in "The Night of the Long Knives." (According to Time-Life books.)

A couple weeks following 9/11 the entire front page of a section of "The Miami Herald" had a picture of a bayonet as the upright member of a cross.  The basic thrust of the article was to equate Moslem Fundamentalism with Fundamentalist Christianity.  This sort of demonizing of Christians by certain  professors and journalists has really picked up speed in the last few years.  They're trying to popularize the idea of a Christian conspiracy to overthrow the government and install a theocracy in the USA.  Of course the first thing they're supposed to do is cart off the homosexuals, according to the popularizers of this propaganda.  This is in the time of a P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act looking for terrorist cells while approaching half the Christians are meeting in their homes.  Does anybody else see a problem brewing?



Preterism doesn't eliminate the same words pertaining to past actions from having present and future applications.  An example is Sarah, the wife of Abraham.  Just because she lived and died 4,000 years ago doesn't mean that's the end of the usefulness of the record concerning her.  For instance, she's Mount Zion (a kingdom) and a covenental conception.  (cp., Gal 4:21-5:1)  The words remain after we've gone down various trails of meaning to follow other trails.  The words continue to inspire recognition of new things, inward and outward.

[Craig]

Or you can recongize God does not see you according to your sins, but you are still responsible when you are aware of them to give them to God.

There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, so the judgment is always the Lords. So should we sin because we are under grace? Why does this always come back around in circles. That is an immature view! The reality is, if we are mature, we will sin guarunteed, but out of ignorance and weakness; if we are immature, we would sin out of willingness and pride storing up God's wrath which will humble us again and again until we gain maturity. If we use our freedom to sin, we will be slave to it once again, forgetting we were bought with a price. We are going to be discplined every time we do wrong, there is no escaping this; however, we are being treated as Children of God concerning this discipline and not rejected for it. That does not mean we go out and sin.

People who excuse sin because it is being part of human nature and embrace it, are those who have been cut off from the Head and become bad company corrupting good character. I do not say this in judgment, I say this in fact. Our freedom is not found in performing sin, the more we perfom in sin, the more we harden our heart, the more we harden our heart, God will harden it more, giving us over to our sinful desires and we will be worse off then if we never knew the way of righteousness at all.

I say, grab hold of spirit of grace and recognize there is no approval found in performing sin. Just because we sin, does not excuse our sin Such behaviors keep the Children of God in bondage.  To state the truth is not judgment, because I do not know the reasons a man sins to judge him, nor do I know his heart or intentions to weigh all the facts.

So let us not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. Then we will be able to test and approve what God's will is-his good, pleasing and perfect will. As long as we have remained conformed to the thinking of this world, we will not know Him and no, we will not be a functioning member within the Body of Christ for we will have lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

When will we nolonger be in need of milk and begin to eat the meat? Why do we have to be continaully taught the elementary principles over and over again. Why are we still being an infant, not aquainted with the teaching about righteousness?

The meat is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish between good and evil. The milk is for the immature, who needs someone to teach them the elementary truths of God's word all over again.

Remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to us, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide us, who follow mere insticts and do not have the Spirit. So be mercifcul to those who doubt, snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear-hating even the clothing stained by corruption. Do not be afraid to stand firm and bold on what is true.

To Him who is able to keep you from falling and present you before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy, to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forever.

Craig

[ken]

For me, it's just incredibly hard to not look at a person, and see beneath the fig skin of shame, guilt, fear, anger etc. at their heart. ...
I work with a openly gay man at work, who would give you the shirt off his back.  He would go the extra mile.  He is the good samaritan.  And i've been around many "believers" who are stuck in their own pride, self serving attitude and don't have any problem pointing out other's sins.  Beneath both exteriors is LOVE imo. 

It sounds like you're into karma. Do you believe you'll receive mercy as long as your "good outweighs your bad"?  It's just what I'm seeing, here.

The man is openly gay. He could be a better samaritan than the good samaritan himself and he is still in complete rebellion, still outside the Kingdom, and still liable and bound for punishment if he doesn't repent.

[ken]

Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?

Functioning member ?

Even according to this shortened list,           I'm out.

The list is quoted out of context. Paul was characterizing the works of the flesh. It's not a list of bad people who "don't get in".  Although, if you don't live by the spirit, and you succumb to those works of the flesh with no remorse (yes I said it; remorse- it proceeds humility and repentance) you will very surely find yourself "out", as far as God's concerned. And His is the only opinion that matters.

If that "shames" you, it's because there's "guilt". They go hand in hand. You don't have to stay in "shame". Submit to God. Resist the devil. You'll be free of the guilt, and consequently the shame. :)

[bhark54]

Just to make sure we have not lost perspective here.  My focus in this discussion was and is the applictation of spritual correctness and judgment.  We don't live in a theocracy, we have civil and criminal justice system in most societies.  We have remedies and punishments for just about every major and minor infraction (excluding most spiritual areas). 

I believe Iran and Saudi Arabia live in some kind of modified theocratic system.  Do we really want advocate for a system where people are tortured and imprisioned for exercising freedom of religion or even freedom in fashion?

Those "practicing" murder, mayhem, violent crimes and civil crimes (thievery, swindlering) are tried and punished (deservedly so) in our earthly court systems.  Are those same people covered by Grace, of course, but that does not excuse them from societal punishment. 


When I spoke of the "law" in previous posts I spoke of Mosiac law as it applies to believers.  Not civil law as it applies to everyone.

I have no problem at all in supporing law and order. Believe me if someone breaks down my front door and makes any attempt at harming my grandchildren I have no problem at all in stopping them by any means possible and seeing that he is tried and convicted in a court of law for his crime.  At the same I  would visit him (or others like him) in jail and try to help him know the love of God so his tormented life can end and his life in Christ can begin. 

[bhark54]

 

Male and male or female and female produce no offspring so by exercising sexuality in that context they are actually against sexuality, in particular, their own

Couples who use birth control produce no offspring either, are they against their sexuality?

To say that righteousness has failed is a lack of paying attention to your own as well as the rest of human history,

I never said righteousness has failed.  I think I might have said in a previous post that the law never produced righteousness.

Gal 2: 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

An example of what is so prevalent in society today is the following excerpt from bhark:  If the stoning begins they will get us both...This is not being advocated by the Bible believers.

As I am sure you know I was using a metaphor. 

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

[Dean]

Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?

Functioning member ?

Even according to this shortened list,           I'm out.

The list is quoted out of context. Paul was characterizing the works of the flesh. It's not a list of bad people who "don't get in".  Although, if you don't live by the spirit, and you succumb to those works of the flesh with no remorse (yes I said it; remorse- it proceeds humility and repentance) you will very surely find yourself "out", as far as God's concerned. And His is the only opinion that matters.

If that "shames" you, it's because there's "guilt". They go hand in hand. You don't have to stay in "shame". Submit to God. Resist the devil. You'll be free of the guilt, and consequently the shame. :)

I have already admited to being ...out...according to your list.

What I wondered was...who [that would include you] according to these lists could possibly be ...in?

IMO...the lists are clear that everybody is ...out...that is their purpose.

Religion says deny the parts of the list that ARE you and focus your judgements on those parts that ARE NOT. I think judging... does exactly what it was designed to do and I have found that this sick and unhealthy behavior is REAL hard.. to 'put away'.

IMO..judging others is addictive because it works just like a drug. It produces the I'm better than ...I'm superior to and shuts off the very human feelings of I'm less than ...inferior to. Most cannot stand those feelings...so they do what works and judging works..until, if they are fortunate... just like the drugs, the judging becomes ineffective.  Of course...religion says christians are not human...real ones do not do the lists...when in fact, all humans..including Christians ..do the lists...and God still loves them exactly as they are... and wonder of wonders they remain ...in.

The saying goes.."although God loves us exactly as we are..He also loves us to much to leave us as we are". The difference being that where Religion was ineffective in changing me..in that it uses SHAME...God is effective in actually changing me..in that He has named His Gospel..the Gospel of GRACE.

Guilt is about what I do. Shame is a false belief about what I think I am. It is the very large difference between doing a mistake and believing I'm a mistake. One is God's view of me and the other is religions.

You are of course free to take what you like and leave the rest.

Laren, thank you for your GRACE filled posts and your kind words.

Dean

[Dean]

I have already admited to being ...out...according to your list.

Dean, you took ken out of context, and manipulated his words. Dean, ken asked you for:

Can you paste me your verses to support God's approval of practicing homosexuals, idolators, murderers, drunks, etc. to be functioning members within the Body of Christ?

Since you did not listen, he is not responsible nor accountable for your answer. Nor does he have to answer you according to your ////////.

I will wait to address your ////////, because it is such a woozy, I need to get administration involved to guide it.

It is one thing to follow me around...it is quite another to tailgate me. Tailgating is dangerous BULLY like behavior that THREATENS the safety of others... and it is NOT OK with me. As an EX Paramedic...my experience suggests that tailgaters might best consider slowing down and take a deep breath... maybe even pull over and take a time out... cause the consequences to tailgating are often...very messy...even bloody.

[Loveroftruth]

Can we please soften the back-bitting a bit, I know there is a way to discuss this without shooting personal assaults and getting angry at each other.... :HeartThrob:

PEACE :girlheart:

[CHB]

Functioning member ?

Even according to this shortened list,           I'm out.


I have already admited to being ...out...according to your list.

What I wondered was...who [that would include you] according to these lists could possibly be ...in?

IMO...the lists are clear that everybody is ...out...that is their purpose.

Religion says deny the parts of the list that ARE you and focus your judgements on those parts that ARE NOT. I think judging... does exactly what it was designed to do and I have found that this sick and unhealthy behavior is REAL hard.. to 'put away'.

IMO..judging others is addictive because it works just like a drug. It produces the I'm better than ...I'm superior to and shuts off the very human feelings of I'm less than ...inferior to. Most cannot stand those feelings...so they do what works and judging works..until, if they are fortunate... just like the drugs, the judging becomes ineffective.  Of course...religion says christians are not human...real ones do not do the lists...when in fact, all humans..including Christians ..do the lists...and God still loves them exactly as they are... and wonder of wonders they remain ...in.

The saying goes.."although God loves us exactly as we are..He also loves us to much to leave us as we are". The difference being that where Religion was ineffective in changing me..in that it uses SHAME...God is effective in actually changing me..in that He has named His Gospel..the Gospel of GRACE.

Guilt is about what I do. Shame is a false belief about what I think I am. It is the very large difference between doing a mistake and believing I'm a mistake. One is God's view of me and the other is religions.

You are of course free to take what you like and leave the rest.

Laren, thank you for your GRACE filled posts and your kind words.

Dean

Hi Dean,

I agree with you. It's not how we live nor what we do in life that gets us saved but what Jesus did that counts. I have been guilty of judging others, like homosexuals by being disgusted with them. I have also been guilty of looking down on other religions as far as thinking how wrong they were. I judged them and condemmed them. Not they I thought they wouldn't be saved but that they just wasn't right and I was.  Now I know, to look down on these religions or homosexuals is really looking down on God because it is he who causes them to exist and be the way they are in the first place. He could change either one of them in an instant and someday when it is time for Him to, He will.

Just thought I would throw in my two cents.  :2c:

CHB

[bhark54]

This heated discussion has evolved into basically the same conflict Paul had with Peter.  Do we live by Grace or by the Law? 

Those of us on the Grace side say if Grace is sufficient for our eventual heavenly reward it ought to be our guide here on earth in our relations with each other. 

Those of the law side (meaning some teachings of Paul primarily) say we are not doing anyone any favors if we don't exercise our spiritual maturity to correct a believer who is continuing in certain sins.  And further we should not even assoiciate with them as they are not fit for service in the body.  Once they have repented they are welcome again in the body.

Please don't attack me if I did not reflect your exact position.

If Paul and Peter had problems I suspect we will also. 

Gal 2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

...and that was how the WWF got started.  (just kidding)

Gal 1:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.

[Pierac]

I agree, however let's remember!

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Got Milk Fruit?



Paul