Mike Williams Resources

[Gizmo]

For those who are interested, below are some links to Mike Williams resources.  He is a  very gifted teacher and a tender spirit.  I hope you find it useful.

Internet Radio Show
http://www.glennkleinonline.com/webcast/guests/mwilliams.html

Online Audio
http://www.gospelogic.com/audio.htm

His Homepage
http://www.gospelrevolution.com/

Network Building
http://www.championsofgrace.com/

Peace,
Gizmoid

[Gizmo]

Anybody get a chance to listen?  What do you think???

[shibboleth]

I have been listening to Mike everyday for about a week now. He's fantastic!!! I think I finally get it....about the law anyway. He says all these short, quippy statements that are full of truth. You know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin. I love her and her partner so much. Only God could do that because I used to be  a fundie to the core. Everyone should listen to his tapes. He's wonderful. :icon_flower:

[Gizmo]

I'm glad you have been blessed.  He is truly gifted!

[shibboleth]

Hey Gizmo, I have started a notebook of Mike's quotes and statements. He has a way of bringing truth down to its very core. I missed so much the first time I listened to his tapes, its worth listening to over and over again. I plan on financially supporting him also.

[Gizmo]

I'm glad.  I hope others check him out.  So far it's you and me on this thread  :dontknow:

[Loveroftruth]

shibboleth Wrote:

You know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin.

Hey Sibboleth.

Could you share more about what you mean here "removing the law from my heart" Is this something Mike teaches  :dontknow:

Thanks! :girlheart:

[firstborn888]

shibboleth Wrote:

You know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin.

Hey Sibboleth.

Could you share more about what you mean here "removing the law from my heart" Is this something Mike teaches  :dontknow:

Thanks! :girlheart:

Hi Loveroftruth.

I've been reading some of Mike's material, and basically Mike teaches that we should judge people in light of Jesus' sacrifice for all sin and not according to the codemnation espoused by the law, ie: God sees the sins of all as already paid for and is not imputing their sins unto them, while the majority of the church wants to continue to judge them by the carnal commandment.

It seems really radical in a way, basically saying that God sees the whole human race as righteous because of what Jesus has done.

As concerning the law:
<< Hebrews 7:18 >>

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The former requirements are rejected because they are weak and useless.

Our flesh (my flesh) still wants to judge according to the flesh. Mike is really challenging me to take the next step - accepting what I already know is true, but it's difficult to let go of the letter of the law altogether and judge humanity by the spirit of grace.

I'd love to hear your thoughts and others thoughts about this.

   - byron   

[Kratos]

I guess I am old fashioned here, but I still believe that the Bible teaches that we are under the law until we believe and receive our forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ. I have heard Calton share that everyone is already saved whether they are homosexual or Muslim or aetheist and it does not sit right with me.

I believe that Jesus has paid the price for all to be saved and He will save all each in their own order, but I do not believe that all are saved and free from the Law today.

This being said, I still believe in hating the sin and loving the sinner. Treating all men with respect and dignity can and should be done, but I do not see that we have to see all as already saved to do this.

John

[reFORMer]

     I agree Kratos.  And I believe the law God writes in our hearts and minds is a living reality of what is written in Scripture.  By the Spirit we are transformed to understand what God's law is without having to be told and to passionately love and choose it without coercion.  I'm not antinomian.  There is no fruit of the Spirit without conformity to moral law.  Salvation is transformation.  It is not by my doing it, "of my own self I can do nothing."  His presence dominating me produces His likeness in me.
     God spoke the Ten Commandments in the hearing of all the people.  They are as absolute in their own realm as the law of gravity is in its realm.  Inasmuch as people are dominated by "the law of sin," even so much are they receiving the result.  These things pertain to actual substance and not merely concept.  The promise to not be hurt of the second death is to the Overcomer.  The crown is to the Victor.  Without qualifying you cannot sit in the throne.  Except you suffer, you cannot reign. 

     Not to be too picky; but, Hebrews 7:18 is referring I think to the precept by which the Levitical Priesthood was constituted being repudiated.  Of course, in the next verse (19) it enlarges the application to the law, because it perfects nothing.

[Loveroftruth]

Yes, I can not forget what supernaturally happened when I "received Jesus".
I actually read a tract one night, prayed the "sinners prayer" and when I woke up the next morning I was DIFFERENT! The sky even looked a different color, its like my eyes opened to a new realm.

So, I have to say that Jesus is the TRUTH, WAY AND LIFE - No one comes to (has fellowship with ) the Father but through HIM.

I think if I didnt have that experience, I may agree that all are already in-fellowship.

PEACE and LOVE :girlheart:

[hopeful]

Hey LT, our experiences sound similar.  Imagine that!   :girlheart:

[Loveroftruth]

Hey LT, our experiences sound similar.  Imagine that!   :girlheart:

Yup, Imagine that :Chinscratch: :banana:

[hopeful]

That banana guy cracks me up!!   :rolllol:

[firstborn888]

I do see people suffer consequences for their sin, and sin brings hurt to those around us as well. In fact, that goes for us who are born again and in fellowship with Him too, right? Even though we are forgiven, when we walk in the flesh it's still death.

So I guess my question is: Is He inputing THEIR trespasses against them (those who don't have a manifest relationship yet, or are they just sowing/reaping death because of still being under the control of the flesh?

Honestly, I'm not trying to make a point, I'm trying to understand. God absolutely transformed everything about me, so I'm totally down with that, and not just a 'concept' about how things theoretically are. Until people are converted, I don't see them benefitting from what Jesus has done - yet. But is God yet holding sin against people, or are they just still bound in the sin? Is all sin paid for?

I think these are very important questions, to me they are. Need more input from my brothers and sisters on this - please.

   - byron

[shibboleth]

shibboleth Wrote:

You know, I knew God had finally done a work in removing the law from my heart when he gave me an overpowering love for my homosexual cousin.

Hey Sibboleth.

Could you share more about what you mean here "removing the law from my heart" Is this something Mike teaches  :dontknow:

Thanks! :girlheart:

When I attended church, I was told that God loves the sinner, yet hates the sin. Yet, adulterers, homosexuals, thiefs, prostitutes, drunks and drug addicts were not allowed to be part of the congreation.....at least they weren't if they were still practicing these sins. Yet, haughty, arrogant, judgmental, gossipy people were allowed to be part of the church congregation. I never understood why we had these dividing lines about what sins were acceptable and what sins weren't. If we are no longer under the law, then we can't pick and choose the laws we are going to be under. Thousands of denominations all with their own laws, creeds, confessions, and rules.

Jesus said that yet while we were sinners He died for us. So, my sin is no barrier to his grace. Jesus loved me when I was living a very sinful, selfish life. He loves my cousin and her partner while they are practicing the gay lifestyle. Does that mean we should sin so grace abounds? Paul said God forbid. But, the participation in sin has no bearing on
God's deep and abiding love for all of us. If we truly know that kind of grace, then we want to live a life pleasing to Him. And, it isn't hard to do because we realize how much He does love and care for us. We want to please Him becasue He's done so much for us.

[Loveroftruth]

Byron wrote this:

So I guess my question is: Is He inputing THEIR trespasses against them (those who don't have a manifest relationship yet, or are they just sowing/reaping death because of still being under the control of the flesh?

I am going to "guess" that they are reaping death (spiritual) the word says sowing to the flesh reaps the flesh. But I would be very curious to see what others say.

I like your posts byron, you are one very inquisitive dude and have very good thoughts and questions that seem to come from that :friendstu:

:girlheart:

[Kratos]

I do not see what Jesus did on the cross as having much if anything to do with what we reap in this life. God is not mocked, whatever we reap will will also sow. This applies to sinner and saint alike. What Jesus did for all and becomes ours when we confess His Lordship changes us so we sow better seed and forgives us of the judgment to come. It is not about changing what we reap, but what we sow. This is what changes our lives or our fruit.

John

[firstborn888]

Byron wrote this:

So I guess my question is: Is He inputing THEIR trespasses against them (those who don't have a manifest relationship yet, or are they just sowing/reaping death because of still being under the control of the flesh?

I am going to "guess" that they are reaping death (spiritual) the word says sowing to the flesh reaps the flesh. But I would be very curious to see what others say.

I like your posts byron, you are one very inquisitive dude and have very good thoughts and questions that seem to come from that :friendstu:

:girlheart:

I enjoy your posts too. I was alone with my UR thoughts for so long, it's great to be out here among people who know. I'm learning a lot.

I've opened a thread (I think my first?) to get people's comments on this specifically: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1046.0;topicseen

   blessings,

   - byron

[ken]

I have to part ways with Mike Williams regarding homosexuality. It sounds really "open" and "inclusive" to say that we're just to love homosexuals and look on them outside the context of the law. But Paul rebuked the Corinthians for allowing  aberrant behavior to go on within their fellowship.

1 Corinthians 5

1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.

2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.

4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,

5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your boasting is not good Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?

7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.

8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;

10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

Paul might have believed in universal reconciliation, but he also understood that sin not repented of still has a penalty, both here and at the Day of Judgment.

Eternal torment, no.

A cursed life in this world and a hard reproof from our Father in Heaven, yes I think so.

And to spare the man's reproach on the Day was of secondary concern to the "leaven leavening the whole lump of dough"- the ruining of the fellowship within the rest of the body.

Which, by the way- if everyone in the UR camp held the views that Mike W. does, you might as well abandon all hope of bringing mainstream evangelicals on board and giving up their ET beliefs.

just my  :2c:

[bhark54]

I have to part ways with Mike Williams regarding homosexuality. It sounds really "open" and "inclusive" to say that we're just to love homosexuals and look on them outside the context of the law.

1 Corinthians 5:1

1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.

Respectfully, how does 1 Cor 5:1  relate to homosexuals?   It  would appear to me that Paul was directly addressing incest.

[ken]

Paul's point to was not to allow "immorality" to dwell within the church. 

Incest/homosexuality, both fall under immorality.

[bhark54]

Immorality is an awful big umbrella.  I am not sure how you go from immorality to "incest/homosexuality" as if those two are somehow linked in Pauls train of thought in this scripture. 

Jesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery.  I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin.  If we excluded that immorality from the "church"  would a single non-comatose male be left? 

Are you thinking that those who only occasionally commit immoral acts are different than those who live a "lifestyle" that presents more regular opportunities to commit immoral acts? 

Once I master "loving my brother as myself" (unless that scripture is promoting both incest and homosexuality?)  than maybe I can move onto the higher calling of deciding who is moral and who isn't. 

To me the biggest act of immorality is to willfully want to exclude anybody from the love of God and His family.

[ken]

Immorality is an awful big umbrella.  I am not sure how you go from immorality to "incest/homosexuality" as if those two are somehow linked in Pauls train of thought in this scripture.

Immorality would be the train of thought. Incest and homosexuality both qualify.

Jesus said if a man just lusts in his heart after a woman then that is adultery.  I would like to meet any man who has ever not been guilty of that immoral sin.  If we excluded that immorality from the "church"  would a single non-comatose male be left?

No, we can't judge the heart, but outward acts are a given.

To me the biggest act of immorality is to willfully want to exclude anybody from the love of God and His family.

So by exhorting the Corinthians to "remove the wicked man from among [themselves]", is Paul guilty of immorality?

[bhark54]

Is Paul immoral, or course not.  I said, to me (for me) it would be immoral to willfully exclude. Is Paul perfect, no.  Do we account of ourselves through Paul, no. 

What I find interesting is that we pick and choose, from among Pauls teachings, which ones we think apply to the "church" today. I have observed  that we generally like (and preach about) the ones we agree with and use them to justify our individual prejudgices.

Just a few of Pauls teachings in Timothy that we ignore.

8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

Do we always (or ever) lift up our hands in prayer?

12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent

Women have no voice or authority in the church?

15But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety

.
Salvation through birthing a baby?

9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,[a] 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

11As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.

Do not help widows under age 60.

11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. 12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife

... only deacons must limit to just one wife.
Paul does not condemn polygamy.

From Corinthians

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

Paul commands not to divorce!

8If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

We have to take care of all of our relatives.

1 Tim 6:1

1All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God's name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers.

Paul upheld slavery.

So if I don't divorce  any of my wives and keep them silent in church, don't beat my slaves too much, lift my hands during prayer and don't help young widows then I am  a good moral member of the church?

I am sure there dozens ,if not hundreds more, of Pauls teachings that the church ignores.  Since I am not wise enough to discern which ones apply and which ones don't I think it is best to simply follow the commandment to love one another.

I can even love those who think I am a fool.