"If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. (This spiritual body is already there before there could even be a soulish body. It takes spirit and body to produce a soul.) "Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, became a living soul; the last Adam a vivifying spirit. But not first the spiritual but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 1 Cor.15,45-46. As we have already stated, because a veil has been cast over the face of all men, we are not able to remember or comprehend with our natural mind that we were once spiritual beings. This is one of the many secrets that the Holy Spirit is revealing to us in this hour. Thus we can only go back in memory to when we were two or three years old. We can not even remember that we were once pre-natal. But that does not in any way disqualify the fact that we did exist! The very fact that we are alive in this natural realm proves that we once were in our mother's womb. And now that we have been born of the Spirit, we can know that we came out from God! Isa.25,7-8: Romans 11, 36. (dora_van_assen_exact_immage)
Paul is very clear and quite specific in 1Cor.15:45-46 that " The first man, Adam, became a living soul" and that the last Adam a vivifing spirit. FIRST the natural then...
If this doctrine/theory that man was lowered from a spirit to human form to experience sin, why is it not made as clear and plain in the Bible? The verses in Isa. and Romans do not explain the doctrine/theory of being lowered for me. And where do we find "because a veil has been cast over the face of all men," and "We can not even remember that we were once pre-natal."?
I had recieved this teaching many years ago as I read and followed Bro. Eby's work, I believed it without even doubt, it sounded right and I liked it. The only thing wrong is that Paul is quite clear, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul/breathing creature."
Isa 25:7 And swallowed up hath He in this mountain The face of the wrapping that is wrapped over all the peoples, And of the covering that is spread over all the nations.
Isa 25:8 He hath swallowed up death in victory, And wiped hath the Lord Jehovah, The tear from off all faces, And the reproach of His people He turneth aside from off all the earth, For Jehovah hath spoken.
Rom 11:36 because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory--to the ages. Amen.
Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you
Don't know if this helps;
isn't there a scripture that says mankind was lowered into this realm to have an experience of evil? I'm not finding it. Am I making it up? :mblush:
Also, Ecclesiastes verse, "spirit returns to God who gave it". You're a studier of the soul more than I, so not sure where this fits in with the "before or after living soul" piece.
I liked this, but it still may not address the "time frame" regarding the soul;
http://www.kingdavidstable.com/messages/p/preexistence.shtml
Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2011, 02:54:05 AM
Don't know if this helps;
isn't there a scripture that says mankind was lowered into this realm to have an experience of evil? I'm not finding it. Am I making it up? :mblush:
Also, Ecclesiastes verse, "spirit returns to God who gave it". You're a studier of the soul more than I, so not sure where this fits in with the "before or after living soul" piece.
I liked this, but it still may not address the "time frame" regarding the soul;
http://www.kingdavidstable.com/messages/p/preexistence.shtml
I understand Ecc. as the "spirit" is the life or breath(of life) and it does return. As for lowered that would be Heb.2. Ill check out the site. thanks
Pre-existence
"Beloved, it appears that at the dawn of the Creation the Sons of God came out from God Himself as spirit, and then were lowered into the soulish realm of Adam. It also appears that these Sons shall all RETURN to their former Estate, not in the first Adam, but in and through the Last Adam, the Lord Jesus Christ." It "appears?"
When they speak of the Sons of God do they mean all of mankind or only those who are sons now? I've often wondered about the whole "those whom God forknew He also predestined"... How did He "preknow" some and not others? :dontknow:
QuoteWhere can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.--1 Cor 15:45
Micah, look how he writes this. The first man, Adam,
became a living soul.
If I become a wife, doesn't that mean I was something else before I became a wife?
"became" "was made to be" [a living soul]
G1096
γίνομαι
ginomaighin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb;
to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively)
to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married,
be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
Why doesn't he just say the first man Adam was a living soul? Or the first man Adam is a living soul?
That's not the word he uses.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;--Heb 2:14
[the children]
"are partakers" [of flesh and blood]
G2841
κοινωνέω
koinōneō
koy-no-neh'-o
From G2844;
to share with others (objectively or subjectively): - communicate, distribute, be partaker.
'koinoneo' is another interesting choice of words. It is the word used for fellowship. The children are sharing fellowship in flesh and blood--so he also took part of the same?
It's just interesting the way he puts that.
The first mam/adam [formed dust of the ground] BECAME a living soul.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 19, 2011, 05:07:51 AM
The first mam/adam [formed dust of the ground] BECAME a living soul.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2:7
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
--Job 33:4
Barnes notes:
"His mental part is from another source. "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." The word נשׁמה neshāmâh is invariably applied to God or man, never to any irrational creature.
The "breath of life" is special to this passage. It expresses the spiritual and principal element in man, which is not formed, but breathed by the Creator into the physical form of man. This rational part is that in which he bears the image of God, and is suited to be his vicegerent on earth. As the earth was prepared to be the dwelling, so was the body to be the organ of that breath of life which is his essence, himself."
"the breath" [of life]
H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâhnesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath,
divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth),
inspiration, soul, spirit.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 19, 2011, 02:02:43 AM
Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you
Is something like this what you're looking for, Micah?
Jeremiah 1:
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.
--Psa 139 :bgdance: :bgdance:
Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2011, 05:52:53 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 19, 2011, 02:02:43 AM
Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you
Is something like this what you're looking for, Micah?
Jeremiah 1:
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;
your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
--Psa 139:16
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2011, 06:05:55 AM
Isaiah 49:1 Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.
9 Remember, you molded me like clay.
So are you going to turn me back into dust?
10 Didn't you pour me out like milk?
Didn't you form me like cheese?
11 Didn't you put skin and flesh on me?
Didn't you sew me together with bones and muscles?
12 You gave me life. You were kind to me.
You took good care of me. You watched over me.
--Job 10
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Ephesians 1:3-4, emphasis added)
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2011, 06:15:03 AM
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Ephesians 1:3-4, emphasis added)
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
15But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16was pleased to reveal his Son in me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood,
--Gal 1
A few tidbits
we were created first in Adam, a living soul
we are created second in Jesus Christ- begotten from above/born again- a life giving spirit, in other words- zoe life/aionian zoe
"the spirit returns to God who gave" it may reasonably only refer to the life breath from him that combines with the clay to create a new unique being (be fruitful and multiply) and is no sure proof verse for prexistence IMO
No man may enter the kingdom unless he is born of the water and the spirit- the wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it but we don't know from whence it came or wither it goes- SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT
Whatever we are predestined to inherit, many are called but few are chosen, and we must be born of the water and the spirit to be "birthed" into it
If we abide /continue/dwell/tabernacle in Christ, in the I AM, we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free- walking in the Spirit/walking in the light/tree of life
to him that has more shall be given
If we do not walk in the spirit, if we walk in the pleasures of the flesh and the mind, in knowledge without wisdom, becoming arrogant and satisfied- we dry up and wither as branches and are gathered to be consumed in the fire- second death, set free the hard way ;o)
He that has not- even that he has shall be taken
Today, if you hear His voice harden not your hearts. IMO entering the promised land, partakers of the divine nature, walking in the works prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them- has nothing to do with what we know of origins or speculate concerning our prenatal existence(or not). Personally, I believe I was "formed in my mothers womb", but I am not opposed to the concept of prenatal existence as sentient spirits. However, I am more concerned as to how we become life giving spirits that manifest the kingdom TODAY in the I AM. SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.
I am not sure I qualify.
micah, I was just having a discussion on the phone with someone else about this (similar) topic. So I found something else that's hopefully related. Not solely scripture, but I believe still good (scriptures included) and hopefully not too off track of what you're looking for. I thought this is interesting from J. Preston Eby;
In Libra we see two scales, one of the scales is tipped down, the other is up revealing an imbalance, deficiency, lack--showing the failure of man to be weighed properly in the scales of God. Some glad morning, the dawn of which methinks I now behold, when the processing's of God in His firstfruits are complete, our eyes will behold with endless joy the surpassing glory of that celestial realm in which walked Adam, the son of God. Our eyes, long dimmed by the darkness of this carnal realm, have not beheld such glories as were there; our ears have not heard its heavenly song, nor have our wildest imaginations probed the splendors of that realm of life where Adam stood in God's image and likeness having no sin, no sorrow nor crying, no labor nor sweat, no bondage nor limitation, no pain nor death; for even now, in this "in part" realm of the firstfruits of the Spirit, we yet see through a glass darkly.
In Gen. ]:26 we see the wonderful advent of man created "in the image and likeness of God," a SPIRITUAL MAN brought forth out of the very SPIRIT-SUBSTANCE of God Almighty and bearing His own divine nature, character and attributes. God first called man ADAM -- meaning RED, or SHOWING BLOOD IN THE FACE--when He created him a SPIRITUAL MAN. In Gen. 2:7 we find that in God's inscrutable wisdom the dark hour came when the creature was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY (Rom. 8:20). Of this man who had been created as pure spirit in the image of God, it is now stated, "And the Lord God FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit, the spiritual man) of life; and man (then) BECAME a LIVING SOUL." The man who had been spirit now "became" a LIVING SOUL--manifest in the earth realm. Adam--red, showing blood in the face--BECAME a living soul, revealing that there was a PROCESS of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm.
The point of special interest to us here is the fact that God first called man ADAM, or RED--SHOWING BLOOD IN THE FACE--when He created him a SPIRITUAL MAN. Man did not "become" Adam when he was "formed of the dust of the ground"--it was not the earthly man who was first characterized as red, or showing blood in the face--but the heavenly man! And this Adam was not formed of the dust, but was created "in the image and likeness of God." No poet or philosopher or prophet could possibly describe the glory and eminence of THIS MAN! I have long known that the "face" in symbolic terms bespeaks of the outward expression and revelation of the deepest inward parts of man's being--the heart. All that a man thinks and feels and is inwardly is written and expressed outwardly upon the countenance, known and read of all men. Blood bespeaks LIFE. To "show blood in the face" is to show life in the countenance--the OUTWARD REVELATION OF THE INNER CONDITION OF L-I-F-E!
Lowered into the earth realm, becoming a living soul, man sank even lower. The bright and glorious spirit ruled in the man and woman of flesh until that dreadful hour in which they partook of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then and there their eyes were opened to see their OUTWARD FORMS. The outraying spirit of glory that had reigned within them dimmed beneath the newly discovered consciousness of the OUTER and they knew the shame of their nakedness before the Lord. Truly the "nakedness" consisted in their sense-consciousness of the lack of reality in the realm of the flesh. In this state they knew the grief of sustaining their bodies by sweat and travail. Man was lowered from the realm of spirit, into the realm of the soul; then in disobedience, drawn away of his own lust and enticed down into the flesh, so that at last God said of man, "He is BECOME FLESH" (Gen. 6:3)He was lowered from spirit to soul, and fell from soul to "flesh." The spirit of man is the image of God--GOD consciousness. The soul is the seat of SELF-consciousness, and the body is the seat of SENSE-consciousness. In spirit Adam was God-conscious. In soul man was both God-conscious and Self-conscious. But ruled by his five senses, fulfilling the desires of the flesh, conscious of the outward world about him, seeking his experience, existence and identity in that low realm, he was a FLESHLY MAN. Having made the transition from the celestial to the physical, we died to the spiritual and became alive to the natural, under the throes of the carnal mind, to have "our conversation...in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind...by nature the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph. 2:3).
I would point out, that Adam had already "fallen", as it were, before he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.. It was BECAUSE he had already been lowered from a higher realm that he DID partake of this tree. One of the outstanding texts which shows this "lowering" of man and his subsequent LACK is Ps. 8:4-5 wherein we read, "What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou visitest him? For thou hast MADE HIM a little LOWER than the angels..." The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is always the Old Testament word for GOD. "In the beginning GOD (Elohim) created..." (Gen. 1:1). The phrase "made a little lower than the angels" would more literally be translated from the Hebrew text, "Thou hast caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM." When God would execute the purpose of the ages He laid hold of His ELOHIM COMPANY and stripped from them some of that glory, that fullness, that oneness and caused them to lack, for He subjected us to the bondage of vanity and corruption, emptiness and nothingness, not willingly on our part, but by reason of HIM who subjected us in hope--hope, in the words of another: "...that out of all its travail and processing's would come forth a company that would redound to His praise, that the inherent glory of our pre-existent state in God, and the acquired glory through the contact with evil, and the overcoming thereof, would combine their effulgence and the latter state would be greater than the former; so that all we once had, plus all that is wrought out through the processing will combine their effulgence, and redemption's glory will shine out to His praise and all the universe shall throb anew with wonder of the power and the inworking grace of God"
http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/HD/HD9.htm
Quote from: eaglesway on July 19, 2011, 06:54:46 AM
I am not sure I qualify.
Does one say to a butterfly that flies free, you were more attractive as a worm?
Once set free from the law of sin and death, the law of life in Christ Jesus prevails.
Maybe totally off-topic but it is about lowered. Still looking into it. Not much time right now so I'll keep it short.
Did you know ice is in a way steam with a lowered frequency?
There are even ways to pass through solid things using frequency.
QuoteThe phrase "made a little lower than the angels" would more literally be translated from the Hebrew text, "Thou hast caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM." When God would execute the purpose of the ages He laid hold of His ELOHIM COMPANY and stripped from them some of that glory, that fullness, that oneness and caused them to lack, for He subjected us to the bondage of vanity and corruption, emptiness and nothingness, not willingly on our part, but by reason of HIM who subjected us in hope--hope, in the words of another: "...that out of all its travail and processing's would come forth a company that would redound to His praise, that the inherent glory of our pre-existent state in God, and the acquired glory through the contact with evil, and the overcoming thereof, would combine their effulgence and the latter state would be greater than the former; so that all we once had, plus all that is wrought out through the processing will combine their effulgence, and redemption's glory will shine out to His praise and all the universe shall throb anew with wonder of the power and the inworking grace of God"
Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
...and all the ends of the earth shall see Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhı̂ym
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
--Mat 5
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
--Mat 5
1 Peter 1:16
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2011, 09:23:50 AM
Isaiah 52:10
The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
...and all the ends of the earth shall see Y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhı̂ym
:thumbsup:
Psalm 68:19
Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah
...even 'êl Y'shû‛âh. Selah
--Psa 68:19
Isaiah 25
1O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are faithfulness and truth.
2For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.
3Therefore shall the strong people glorify thee, the city of the terrible nations shall fear thee.
4For thou hast been a strength to the poor, a strength to the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shadow from the heat, when the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.
5Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in Y'shû‛âh.
For the creation was subjected to futility
subjected hupotasso 5293
to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject
++++
A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a
military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use,
it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming
responsibility, and carrying a burden".
from 5259 and 5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:-be under
obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to,
unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
Sub means under, so in that way creation was lowered. Its where we get our prefix hypo. If you have hypoglycemia it means that your blood sugar goes from a state of "normal" (don't get me started on "normal" in medicine) to a lowered state.
I know this isn't 1=1, but maybe it helps. If it makes you feel more confident in my assessment its the very first thing that I thought today when I woke up. :winkgrin: My entire nights sleep was devoted to your question Micah. :Sparkletooth:
katabole 2602
1) a throwing or laying down
a) the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb
b) of the seed of plants and animals
2) a founding (laying down a foundation)
Matt 13:35 This fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will announce what has been hidden from the foundation of the world."
from
katabolle 2598
1) to cast down
1a) to throw to the ground, prostate
2) to put in a lower place
2a) to lay (down) a foundation
Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
It seems as though the idea of the foundation of the world has to do with casting down, lowering.
In a philosophical sense the only way we could go is down when we were created. If we are any less than 100% God we would go from a high to low. That is if you see the creation as separate from God (from Him, through Him, to Him are all things). And now I could go down endless hallways in this thought process so I'll leave it at that.
Abraham's seed was as the sand on the seashore and as the stars of heaven. The sand being the lowered state.....the stars being the elevated.
Father showed what He was doing with His progency in Abraham.
had a major computor crash.......sheila
we are to carry no burden into the Holy city on our Sabbath....no burden of sin/justified in Christ....though Pharissees and sadducees heap up heavy loads
inpossibe to bear......His yoke is LIGHT. He has set our bound spirits free....and in due time....will clothe us from on High.
no heavy loads exist in the spirit realm...no pain,no death,no tears......this is the GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD
when that which is impossible for men[flesh]....becomes reality by Hiis spirit
we are told..that satan would put us in prison...for ten days[a restriction from the freedom in the spirit He gives us] but He visits us..in our prison[bound in
the earth].....read the accounts of the spirit freeing Peter from prison.....this is what He purposes for all mankind. No limitations[binding]
the principle...'whatever you bind on earth is bound in Heaven" when you bind someone in their sins[unforgiven] they are bound in the heavens[spirit]
when you 'loose' through forgiveness/Christ] from sin...you loosen the spirit into heaven[sit in High places]
now, satan was loosed[adversary/accusor] someone..give him the power to snatch from His hand/an impossible thought] and by thus doing
set him free in the heavens[spirit realm] to deceive again.on earth...a great crowd of Gog as the sand on the seashore.....bent on
surrounding the HOLY CITY CAMP IN THE EARTH...to hem it in and bind it.
fire is coming down from heaven to consume all adversaries of the truth
WEAK WOMEN HAVE BEEN TAKEN CAPTIVE TIMOTHY 3;6] THEY ARE THE KIND WHO WORM THEIR WAY INTO HOMES AND GAIN CONTROL
OF WEAK-WILLED WOMEN,WHO ARE LOADED DOWN BY SINS AND ARE SWAYED BY ALL KINDS OF EVIL DESIRES,ALWAYS LEARNING BUT
NEVER ABLE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE TRUTH[ALL MANKIND SAVED] JUST AS JANNES AND JAMBRES OPPOSED MOSES[DELIVERANCE] SO
ALSO THESE MEN OPPOSE THE TRUTH- MEN OF DEPRAVED MINDS...WHO AS FAR AS THE FAITH[SPIRIT] IS CONCERNED,ARE REJECTED
BUT,THEY WILL NOT GET VERY FAR,BECAUSE,AS IN THE CASE OF THOSE MEN,THEIR FOLLY WILL BE CLEAR TO ALL
Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful Wonderful
"He has set our bound spirits free... this is the GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD."
"Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not desire; mine ears hast Thou opened" (Ps. 40:6);
"Sacrifice and offering Thou wouldest not, but a body hast Thou prepared me" (Heb. 10:5).
Quote from: eaglesway on July 19, 2011, 06:54:46 AM
A few tidbits
we were created first in Adam, a living soul
we are created second in Jesus Christ- begotten from above/born again- a life giving spirit, in other words- zoe life/aionian zoe
"the spirit returns to God who gave" it may reasonably only refer to the life breath from him that combines with the clay to create a new unique being (be fruitful and multiply) and is no sure proof verse for prexistence IMO
No man may enter the kingdom unless he is born of the water and the spirit- the wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it but we don't know from whence it came or wither it goes- SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT
Whatever we are predestined to inherit, many are called but few are chosen, and we must be born of the water and the spirit to be "birthed" into it
If we abide /continue/dwell/tabernacle in Christ, in the I AM, we shall know the truth and the truth shall set us free- walking in the Spirit/walking in the light/tree of life
to him that has more shall be given
If we do not walk in the spirit, if we walk in the pleasures of the flesh and the mind, in knowledge without wisdom, becoming arrogant and satisfied- we dry up and wither as branches and are gathered to be consumed in the fire- second death, set free the hard way ;o)
He that has not- even that he has shall be taken
Today, if you hear His voice harden not your hearts. IMO entering the promised land, partakers of the divine nature, walking in the works prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them- has nothing to do with what we know of origins or speculate concerning our prenatal existence(or not). Personally, I believe I was "formed in my mothers womb", but I am not opposed to the concept of prenatal existence as sentient spirits. However, I am more concerned as to how we become life giving spirits that manifest the kingdom TODAY in the I AM. SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.
I am not sure I qualify.
God is Good. :HeartThrob:
Thanks everyone.
Ill stick with the words of Paul in 1Co 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Peace and Love Through Jesus. Very good Eaglesway.
Micah,
Can the soul be likened music?
You can not grasp it in your hand yet it is a moving and powerful expression?
Or a beautiful painting whose canvas is rolled up and can only be admired once the scroll is opened?
Or a ripe peach that needs to be tasted to be enjoyed?
Thanks Beloved.
Ill stick with the words of Paul in 1Co 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2011, 07:46:04 PM
Micah,
Can the soul be likened music?
You can not grasp it in your hand yet it is a moving and powerful expression?
Or a beautiful painting whose canvas is rolled up and can only be admired once the scroll is opened?
Or a ripe peach that needs to be tasted to be enjoyed?
:thumbsup:
You yourselves are our letter, whose writing is in our heart, open for every man's reading and knowledge;
3Forasmuch as
ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
--2 Cor 3
Im sorry but what are you Beloved Servant and Molly trying to say? I do not understand?
What I do know is that Paul had the Word of Isa. and Pas. but yet Paul does not use any of your verses to show that man was a "spirit"first and then a living creature/soul. Like I have stated i believed in that theory/doctrine for many years, but my Bible does not show what Bro. Eby says or Sis. van dorn have written.
Micah,
Can the soul be likened music?
You can not grasp it in your hand yet it is a moving and powerful expression?
Or a beautiful painting whose canvas is rolled up and can only be admired once the scroll is opened?
Or a ripe peach that needs to be tasted to be enjoyed?
This is what I dont see as having anything to do with the post.
Hi Micah,
Specifically, that was not a rhetorical question.
I wrote those examples in an endeavor to understand your view.
Are they good analogies?
How would you define the word?
I'm trying to cross the borders of your mind! lol
Hi micah. I'm the kind of person who who entertains different possibilities, so please don't take this as me "arguing" with you. I try to understand, reason, etc. :bigGrin:
With that in mind, do you think it's possible something became something (for instance, "a living soul") but could very well have been something else before that? That just because it "became", doesn't mean it never had another, different form or existence?
Seems to me SO many things are a matter of how well we are able to see it, how we interpret it, how it's "best" interpreted/revealed. What I think the scripture says, sometimes there may just be more to it that what I realize. One part of what Paul said that I think of specifically is, that the last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit...does that mean He had absolutely no existence, in any "form" prior to that, or that maybe Paul is qualifying What He was/is, with the "life-giving" description, or some other possibility? I've always thought of Jesus as having eternally existed in some "form" or another...
If that's the case, then maybe the "man became a living soul" statement doesn't rule out that he/we were something else prior to that? Sort of like a butterfly was a worm, was a group of cells, was an atom, etc.? So did it truly never exist in any form, or could it be that it is now just in its more complete stage? I don't know, I'm thinking/suggesting for consideration. I do tend to believe in pre-existence of human-kind of some sort, but I wouldn't be 100% surprised to find out that it wasn't true. :2c: I've been surprised by many things. :winkgrin:
Sorry, I don't mean to weary you with this, but I personally find it very interesting and relevant to the discussion. I also ran across this from Brother Eby. Maybe there's something in this, from the scriptures he quotes and how he interprets them that may help? It's some things I hadn't completely thought about/realized before.
"As poor Job sat on the ash heap in the midst of trial and suffering the Lord commanded him to stand up like a man and respond to the questions He, the Lord, would put to him. The Lord then asked forty questions, none of which Job could answer. Among the questions was this one: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7). Job was speechless, for he had no idea where he was in that time of long ago, but the truth, it seems to me, was that Job was there among the company of the sons of God, beholding with wonder the plan of God on earth with its sufferings and testiness and the glory that should follow. These sons of God who shouted for joy on that primeval morn understood the wisdom of a plan by which they should gain the enlightenment of perfection by experience instead of perfection by creations guided only by divine instincts, and that the sufferings of this world are not worthy to be compared to the glory that is to follow as a result of them, and so awesome was the prospect that they shouted for joy in holy expectation. We do not shout unless there is something to shout about. The message is clear--there was a time before the foundations of the earth were laid; there were sons of God who already existed in that ancient time; and those young sons of God lifted their voices with the morning stars in contemplation of the marvelous purpose they were to fulfill. It is precious to know that God's first Son, our own Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, is named the Bright and Morning Star.
In the ninetieth Psalm referred to above the prophet David assures us with great plainness of speech that the Lord has been our dwelling place in all generations. Even before the mountains were brought forth or God had formed the earth, from everlasting to everlasting He is God and in Him we dwelt and from Him we came. Our spirits were with Him before the creation of the earth, for the Father was then our dwelling place. We were sent to this earthly realm for a wise and glorious purpose--for testing, learning, instruction, training, discipline, and perfection--preparation for our part in that magnificent work of deliverance of the whole creation from the tyranny of darkness, decay and death. The Psalmist said, "Thou turnest man to destruction (this realm of sin and death, of flesh and blood); and sayest, Return, ye children of men" (Ps. 90:3). The Lord turned man to destruction, which is to say, He sent us down to this earth realm of dust, sin and death, and then said to us, "Return! ye children of men." What a revelation that is!
During our sojourn in this life, we (the firstfruits) have heard our Father's call to return to Him. And so we are returning in obedience to His call and in the strength and anointing of His quickening Spirit. I do not believe our heavenly Father will leave us in this realm of destruction one day longer than is necessary. When He who in eternal wisdom turned us to destruction sees that all the lessons have been fully and eternally learned and that destruction's work has been fulfilled, then He says, "Return, ye children of men," and we return. When our Lord says, "Come," we come. Matters not how far we have wandered in our sin or how low we have gone in degradation. When the day comes for the Lord to say RETURN YE CHILDREN OF MEN He puts into our hearts the desire to return and we return. At the end of our sojourn in this earthly realm we will have learned the truths Father wanted us to learn and experienced His ways unto perfection. We began in God, we are walking out our predestined path in this life, and will return to the Father as fully manifest sons of God, equipped to set creation free from the curse of sin and death.
Far away in the depths of my spirit today there is a chord that still vibrates to that wondrous shout of joy before the foundations of the earth were laid, when, in that long forgotten past we were there with the Father in spirit, and there is an inward sense of assurance that much of the truth we now possess was known to our spirits since that early beginning. Because the spirit is burdened down with the earthly and visible, man has come to the place in his experience where the inner sanctum wherein God lives in man's spirit is veiled by the flesh and his spiritual consciousness is imprisoned by this gross material realm. We remember not the things of old--until that heaven-blest day when Christ comes in quickening power and touches the mind of our spirit, restoring the memory of those former things. For lack of true understanding we call this restored memory "revelation". When by the eyes of spirit we see Jesus, crowned with glory and honor, the powerful attraction kindled in our hearts for Christ and reality is, in fact, just the beginning of the wonderful RENEWING OF THE MIND to recall again the things of that high and holy realm from whence we came. The "renewing" of the mind can be nothing else but the restoration of the mind to a realm of knowledge and understanding previously enjoyed."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2011, 11:37:36 PM
Hi Micah,
Specifically, that was not a rhetorical question.
I wrote those examples in an endeavor to understand your view.
Are they good analogies?
How would you define the word?
I'm trying to cross the borders of your mind! lol
I will not attempt to your question, if it is the word soul that you ask of, been there.
That's OK.
I once asked for the definition of "spirit" and never got a sufficient response.
Yet these things are more real than anything we can see or touch.
Quote from: jabcat on July 20, 2011, 12:09:28 AM
With that in mind, do you think it's possible something became something (for instance, "a living soul") but could very well have been something else before that? That just because it "became", doesn't mean it never had another, different form or existence?
Became is not in the Hebrew text.
It's: ......breath lliving man living soul...
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 12:38:12 AM
Quote from: jabcat on July 20, 2011, 12:09:28 AM
With that in mind, do you think it's possible something became something (for instance, "a living soul") but could very well have been something else before that? That just because it "became", doesn't mean it never had another, different form or existence?
Became is not in the Hebrew text.
It's: ......breath lliving man living soul...
I'd like to see the broader context, i.e., a line or two prior and after.
What do
you think the Hebrew is saying there, Tony?
Quote from: jabcat on July 20, 2011, 12:09:28 AM
Hi micah. I'm the kind of person who who entertains different possibilities, so please don't take this as me "arguing" with you. I try to understand, reason, etc. :bigGrin:
With that in mind, do you think it's possible something became something (for instance, "a living soul") but could very well have been something else before that? That just because it "became", doesn't mean it never had another, different form or existence?
Seems to me SO many things are a matter of how well we are able to see it, how we interpret it, how it's "best" interpreted/revealed. What I think the scripture says, sometimes there may just be more to it that what I realize. One part of what Paul said that I think of specifically is, that the last Adam (Jesus) became a life-giving spirit...does that mean He had absolutely no existence, in any "form" prior to that, or that maybe Paul is qualifying What He was/is, with the "life-giving" description, or some other possibility? I've always thought of Jesus as having eternally existed in some "form" or another...
If that's the case, then maybe the "man became a living soul" statement doesn't rule out that he/we were something else prior to that? Sort of like a butterfly was a worm, was a group of cells, was an atom, etc.? So did it truly never exist in any form, or could it be that it is now just in its more complete stage? I don't know, I'm thinking/suggesting for consideration. I do tend to believe in pre-existence of human-kind of some sort, but I wouldn't be 100% surprised to find out that it wasn't true. :2c: I've been surprised by many things. :winkgrin:
Perhaps, what you say "With that in mind, do you think it's possible something became something (for instance, "a living soul") but could very well have been something else before that? That just because it "became", doesn't mean it never had another, different form or existence?" But is that not just your assumption or the act of accepting something you think is so?
"I do tend to believe in pre-existence of human-kind of some sort,..."(Jabcat) I to have had a thinking like that, but I cant find it to a truth.
As far as Bro. Eby I have stated that I believed him Ive was given opportunity to teach that theory and people believed, for this I am a bit fearful now, for I followed Eby rather than the Word.
I am certain that should we look at the words Spirit, spirit, breath of life, wind, alive, and life out side of how those words have been presented by religion and the sects and denominations there would be a greater hope of understanding The Word.
God is Spirit (Jo.4:24)
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2011, 12:36:36 AM
That's OK.
I once asked for the definition of "spirit" and never got a sufficient response.
Yet these things are more real than anything we can see or touch.
I asked as well.
this is what i get from the online Hebrew interlinear on my desktop;
and·he-is-forming
the·human from
־
the·ground
and·he-is-blowing
in·nostrils-of·him
breath-of
lives
and·he-is-becoming
the·human
to·soul
living
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2011, 12:47:04 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2011, 12:36:36 AM
That's OK.
I once asked for the definition of "spirit" and never got a sufficient response.
Yet these things are more real than anything we can see or touch.
I asked as well.
Maybe we've got 10,000 opinions but
most either don't really know and/or can't sufficiently put it into words :dunno2:
I think I personally only have bits and pieces of it.
You really want to know that....? :laughing7:
It simply means the man was dead and started living.
Compare it to a car.
God build a car. Then He turned the ignition key.
Quote from: jabcat on July 20, 2011, 12:47:23 AM
this is what i get from the online Hebrew interlinear on my desktop;
and·he-is-forming
the·human from
־
the·ground
and·he-is-blowing
in·nostrils-of·him
breath-of
lives
and·he-is-becoming
the·human
to·soul
living
That a LOT of interpretation....
Yehovah Elohiym to.form man(kind) dust of ground to.breath nostril breath/spirit living man(kind) living soul
Note: breath/spirit is NOT the same Hebrew words as Soul
Quote from: jabcat on July 20, 2011, 12:48:42 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2011, 12:47:04 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2011, 12:36:36 AM
That's OK.
I once asked for the definition of "spirit" and never got a sufficient response.
Yet these things are more real than anything we can see or touch.
I asked as well.
Maybe we've got 10,000 opinions but most either don't really know and/or can't sufficiently put it into words :dunno2:
I think I personally only have bits and pieces of it.
What you say is true.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 01:02:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on July 20, 2011, 12:47:23 AM
this is what i get from the online Hebrew interlinear on my desktop;
and·he-is-forming
the·human from
־
the·ground
and·he-is-blowing
in·nostrils-of·him
breath-of
lives
and·he-is-becoming
the·human
to·soul
living
That a LOT of interpretation....
Yehovah Elohiym to.form man(kind) dust of ground to.breath nostril breath/spirit living man(kind) living soul
Note: breath/spirit is NOT the same Hebrew words as Soul
Good.
וִַ יצֶ ר 72:
u·iitzr
and·he-is-forming
יְהוָה
ieue
Yahweh
אֱהִ י
aleim
Elohim
אֶ ת
ath
»
־
-
הָ אָ דָ
e·adm
the·human
עָפָ ר
ophr
soil
מִ .
mn
from
־
-
הָ אֲדָ מָ ה
e·adme
the·ground
וִַ 0ַ ח
u·iphch
and·he-is-blowing
And the LORD God
formed man [of] the dust of
the ground, and breathed
into his nostrils the breath
of life; and man became a
living soul.
7
ְ אַ 0ָ יו
b·aphi·u
in·nostrils-of·him
נִ ְ מַ ת
nshmth
breath-of
חַ ִ י
chiim
lives
וַ יְהִ י
u·iei
and·he-is-becoming
הָ אָ דָ
e·adm
the·human
לְ נֶפֶ
l·nphsh
to·soul
חַ ָה
chie
living
:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 12:55:08 AM
Compare it to a car.
God build a car. Then He turned the ignition key.
I like that.
That's about the same as I was at getting with the samples above.
The spirit is the "force"; the soul is the expression of that force.
That's why Adam was red/ruddy, he expressed the nature on his countenance.
"The breath of life," i.e., breath producing life, does not denote the spirit by which man is distinguished form the animals, or the soul of man from that of the beasts, but only the life-breath (vid., 1 Kings 17:17).
It is true, נשׁמה generally signifies the human soul, but in Genesis 7:22 חיּים נשׁמת־רוּח is used of men and animals both; and should any one explain this, on the ground that the allusion is chiefly to men, and the animals are connected per zeugma, or should he press the ruach attached, and deduce from this the use of neshamah in relation to men and animals, there are several passages in which neshamah is synonymous with ruach (e.g., Isaiah 42:5; Job 32:8; Job 33:4), or חיים רוח applied to animals (Genesis 6:17; Genesis 7:15), or again neshamah used as equivalent to nephesh (e.g., (Joshua 10:40, cf. Joshua 10:28, Joshua 10:30, Joshua 10:32).
For neshamah, the breathing, πνοή, is "the ruach in action" (Auberlen). Beside this, the man formed from the dust became, through the breathing of the "breath of life," a חיּה נפשׁ, an animated, and as such a living being; an expression which is also applied to fishes, birds, and land animals (Genesis 1:20-21, Genesis 1:24, Genesis 1:30), and there is no proof of pre-eminence on the part of man. As חיּה נפשׁ, ψυχὴ ζῶσα, does not refer to the soul merely, but to the whole man as an animated being, so נשׁמה does not denote the spirit of man as distinguished from body and soul.
On the relation of the soul to the spirit of man nothing can be gathered from this passage; the words, correctly interpreted, neither show that the soul is an emanation, an exhalation of the human spirit, nor that the soul was created before the spirit and merely received its life from the latter. The formation of man from dust and the breathing of the breath of life we must not understand in a mechanical sense, as if God first of all constructed a human figure from dust, and then, by breathing His breath of life into the clod of earth which he had shaped into the form of a man, made it into a living being.
The words are to be understood θεοπρεπῶς. By an act of divine omnipotence man arose from the dust; and in the same moment in which the dust, by virtue of creative omnipotence, shaped itself into a human form, it was pervaded by the divine breath of life, and created a living being, so that we cannot say the body was earlier than the soul. The dust of the earth is merely the earthly substratum, which was formed by the breath of life from God into an animated, living, self-existent being.
When it is said, "God breathed into his nostril the breath of life," it is evident that this description merely gives prominence to the peculiar sign of life, viz., breathing; since it is obvious, that what God breathed into man could not be the air which man breathes; for it is not that which breathes, but simply that which is breathed. Consequently, breathing into the nostril can only mean, that "God, through His own breath, produced and combined with the bodily form that principle of life, which was the origin of all human life, and which constantly manifests its existence in the breath inhaled and exhaled through the nose" (Delitzsch, Psychol. p. 62).
Breathing, however, is common to both man and beast; so that this cannot be the sensuous analogon of the supersensuous spiritual life, but simply the principle of the physical life of the soul. Nevertheless the vital principle in man is different from that in the animal, and the human soul from the soul of the beast. This difference is indicated by the way in which man received the breath of life from God, and so became a living soul.
"The beasts arose at the creative word of God, and no communication of the spirit is mentioned even in Genesis 2:19; the origin of their soul was coincident with that of their corporeality, and their life was merely the individualization of the universal life, with which all matter was filled in the beginning by the Spirit of God.
On the other hand, the human spirit is not a mere individualization of the divine breath which breathed upon the material of the world, or of the universal spirit of nature; nor is his body merely a production of the earth when stimulated by the creative word of God.
The earth does not bring forth his body, but God Himself puts His hand to the work and forms him; nor does the life already imparted to the world by the Spirit of God individualize itself in him, but God breathes directly into the nostrils of the one man, in the whole fulness of His personality, the breath of life, that in a manner corresponding to the personality of God he may become a living soul" (Delitzsch). This was the foundation of the pre-eminence of man, of his likeness to God and his immortality; for by this he was formed into a personal being, whose immaterial part was not merely soul, but a soul breathed entirely by God, since spirit and soul were created together through the inspiration of God.
As the spiritual nature of man is described simply by the act of breathing, which is discernible by the senses, so the name which God gives him (Genesis 5:2) is founded upon the earthly side of his being: Adam, from אדמה (adamah), earth, the earthly element, like homo from humus, or from χαμά, χαμαί, χαμᾶθεν, to guard him from self-exaltation, not from the red colour of his body, since this is not a distinctive characteristic of man, but common to him and to many other creatures. The name man (Mensch), on the other hand, from the Sanskrit mânuscha, manuschja, from man to think, manas equals mens, expresses the spiritual inwardness of our nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 12:55:08 AM
Compare it to a car.
God build a car. Then He turned the ignition key.
I like that.
That's about the same as I was at getting with the samples above.
The spirit is the "force"; the soul is the expression of that force.
That's why Adam was red/ruddy, he expressed the nature on his countenance.
No.
Too mechanistic. Read what I just posted.
I did.
And still chewing on it.
It's pretty dense.
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 01:46:07 AM
"The breath of life," i.e., breath producing life, does not denote the spirit by which man is distinguished form the animals, or the soul of man from that of the beasts, but only the life-breath (vid., 1 Kings 17:17).
It is true, נשׁמה generally signifies the human soul, but in Genesis 7:22 חיּים נשׁמת־רוּח is used of men and animals both; and should any one explain this, on the ground that the allusion is chiefly to men, and the animals are connected per zeugma, or should he press the ruach attached, and deduce from this the use of neshamah in relation to men and animals, there are several passages in which neshamah is synonymous with ruach (e.g., Isaiah 42:5; Job 32:8; Job 33:4), or חיים רוח applied to animals (Genesis 6:17; Genesis 7:15), or again neshamah used as equivalent to nephesh (e.g., (Joshua 10:40, cf. Joshua 10:28, Joshua 10:30, Joshua 10:32).
For neshamah, the breathing, πνοή, is "the ruach in action" (Auberlen). Beside this, the man formed from the dust became, through the breathing of the "breath of life," a חיּה נפשׁ, an animated, and as such a living being; an expression which is also applied to fishes, birds, and land animals (Genesis 1:20-21, Genesis 1:24, Genesis 1:30), and there is no proof of pre-eminence on the part of man. As חיּה נפשׁ, ψυχὴ ζῶσα, does not refer to the soul merely, but to the whole man as an animated being, so נשׁמה does not denote the spirit of man as distinguished from body and soul.
On the relation of the soul to the spirit of man nothing can be gathered from this passage; the words, correctly interpreted, neither show that the soul is an emanation, an exhalation of the human spirit, nor that the soul was created before the spirit and merely received its life from the latter. The formation of man from dust and the breathing of the breath of life we must not understand in a mechanical sense, as if God first of all constructed a human figure from dust, and then, by breathing His breath of life into the clod of earth which he had shaped into the form of a man, made it into a living being.
The words are to be understood θεοπρεπῶς. By an act of divine omnipotence man arose from the dust; and in the same moment in which the dust, by virtue of creative omnipotence, shaped itself into a human form, it was pervaded by the divine breath of life, and created a living being, so that we cannot say the body was earlier than the soul. The dust of the earth is merely the earthly substratum, which was formed by the breath of life from God into an animated, living, self-existent being.
When it is said, "God breathed into his nostril the breath of life," it is evident that this description merely gives prominence to the peculiar sign of life, viz., breathing; since it is obvious, that what God breathed into man could not be the air which man breathes; for it is not that which breathes, but simply that which is breathed. Consequently, breathing into the nostril can only mean, that "God, through His own breath, produced and combined with the bodily form that principle of life, which was the origin of all human life, and which constantly manifests its existence in the breath inhaled and exhaled through the nose" (Delitzsch, Psychol. p. 62).
Breathing, however, is common to both man and beast; so that this cannot be the sensuous analogon of the supersensuous spiritual life, but simply the principle of the physical life of the soul. Nevertheless the vital principle in man is different from that in the animal, and the human soul from the soul of the beast. This difference is indicated by the way in which man received the breath of life from God, and so became a living soul.
"The beasts arose at the creative word of God, and no communication of the spirit is mentioned even in Genesis 2:19; the origin of their soul was coincident with that of their corporeality, and their life was merely the individualization of the universal life, with which all matter was filled in the beginning by the Spirit of God.
On the other hand, the human spirit is not a mere individualization of the divine breath which breathed upon the material of the world, or of the universal spirit of nature; nor is his body merely a production of the earth when stimulated by the creative word of God.
The earth does not bring forth his body, but God Himself puts His hand to the work and forms him; nor does the life already imparted to the world by the Spirit of God individualize itself in him, but God breathes directly into the nostrils of the one man, in the whole fulness of His personality, the breath of life, that in a manner corresponding to the personality of God he may become a living soul" (Delitzsch). This was the foundation of the pre-eminence of man, of his likeness to God and his immortality; for by this he was formed into a personal being, whose immaterial part was not merely soul, but a soul breathed entirely by God, since spirit and soul were created together through the inspiration of God.
As the spiritual nature of man is described simply by the act of breathing, which is discernible by the senses, so the name which God gives him (Genesis 5:2) is founded upon the earthly side of his being: Adam, from אדמה (adamah), earth, the earthly element, like homo from humus, or from χαμά, χαμαί, χαμᾶθεν, to guard him from self-exaltation, not from the red colour of his body, since this is not a distinctive characteristic of man, but common to him and to many other creatures. The name man (Mensch), on the other hand, from the Sanskrit mânuscha, manuschja, from man to think, manas equals mens, expresses the spiritual inwardness of our nature.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament
As far as I can tell they make their explanation using how the word soul is used in the NT in relation to what a soul is a breathing creature.
1 Thessalonians 5:8-10
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Amen! :happygrin:
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 01:59:31 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 12:55:08 AM
Compare it to a car.
God build a car. Then He turned the ignition key.
I like that.
That's about the same as I was at getting with the samples above.
The spirit is the "force"; the soul is the expression of that force.
That's why Adam was red/ruddy, he expressed the nature on his countenance.
No.
Too mechanistic.
Nope, it's exactly what the animal soul is. It's the summary of your article and the Jewish view.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 08:46:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 01:59:31 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 12:55:08 AM
Compare it to a car.
God build a car. Then He turned the ignition key.
I like that.
That's about the same as I was at getting with the samples above.
The spirit is the "force"; the soul is the expression of that force.
That's why Adam was red/ruddy, he expressed the nature on his countenance.
No.
Too mechanistic.
Nope, it's exactly what the animal soul is. It's the summary of your article and the Jewish view.
Do the Jews consider themselves animals?
And the LORD 3068 God 430 formed 3335 man 120 [of] the dust 6083 of 4480 the ground 127, and breathed 5301 into his nostrils 639 the breath5397 of life 2416; and man 120 became a living 2416 soul 5315.
"the breath of life"
nĕshamah chay from which man derives his soul...
It looks to me like this phrase is uniquely applied to man. It appears once in the OT, in the Gen 2:7 creation of the first man Adam. [We see Jesus breathing into the nostrils of the disciples to impart to them the Holy Spirit.]
Again, we see the word also used as 'spirit' of man.
Pro 20:27 The spirit5397 of man 120 [is] the candle 5216 of the LORD 3068, searching 2664 all the inward parts 2315 of the belly 990.
Here in Prov 20:27 we see that neshamah as applied to man is the lamp of the LORD and the spirit of man.
God breathes directly into the nostrils of man. In this way, nashamah chay characterizes the unique and personal relationship between God and man, and defines man's being [soul].
Barnes Notes
His mental part is from another source. "And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life." The word נשׁמה neshāmâh is invariably applied to God or man, never to any irrational creature. The "breath of life" is special to this passage. It expresses the spiritual and principal element in man, which is not formed, but breathed by the Creator into the physical form of man. This rational part is that in which he bears the image of God, and is suited to be his vicegerent on earth. As the earth was prepared to be the dwelling, so was the body to be the organ of that breath of life which is his essence, himself.
Lamentations 4;20 the LORD'S ANOINTED,OUR VERY LIFE BREATH...was caught in their traps
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 11:32:48 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 08:46:11 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 01:59:31 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 20, 2011, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 12:55:08 AM
Compare it to a car.
God build a car. Then He turned the ignition key.
I like that.
That's about the same as I was at getting with the samples above.
The spirit is the "force"; the soul is the expression of that force.
That's why Adam was red/ruddy, he expressed the nature on his countenance.
No.
Too mechanistic.
Nope, it's exactly what the animal soul is. It's the summary of your article and the Jewish view.
Do the Jews consider themselves animals?
Every living creature has a "life force". The "life force" of humans is the same as that of other animals.
But humans have "something extra".
neshâmâh and nephesh.
I wrote something similar as you posted last night but deleted it because I thought it was off-topic. Now the thread moved that way I'll retype the other part of my post.
When we look at Genesis we see God creating all kinds of things
excluding humans. AFTER that God plants a garden and makes it grow. That takes a while and all that time man is NOT in the garden.
So what if there are thousands of nearly-humans outside the garden. These creatures look exatly like early mankind. But they only have that "life force" like animals.
When God puts that nealy-human in the garden it recieves "something extra". At that point it's a human. That "something extra is teh only difference between man and animal.
:2c:
1395 נָפַשׁ (nāpash) take breath, refresh oneself. This denominative verb occurs only in the Niphal (Ex 23:12; II Sam 16:14; Ex 31:17).
Parent Noun
1395a נֶפֶשׁ (nepesh) life, soul, creature, person, appetite, and mind are the more common of the twenty-some varieties of meaning utilized in KJV.
(ASV conforms with these uses in a majority of cases, while RSV deviates freely, sometimes reverting to "soul" where KJV has another expression but more often replacing "soul" with words like "being," "person," any "one," "he" who, "self," "I/me," etc., and "appetite." Both revisions, in fact, make substitutions by using terms found in other passages in KJV.) The Ugaritic and Akkadian have cognates with somewhat similar breadth of meaning but both include the meaning "throat." Arabic nas includes "soul, mind, life, person, inclination, self (as a reflexive pronoun)" but does not mean "throat." For Phoenician-Punic and Old Aramaic npsh/nbsh see Jean, C. F. and Hoftijzer, F. Dictionnaire des Inscriptions Sιmitiques de l'ouest (Leiden 1965). It is common in language for a bodily part or organ to take on emotional or spiritual meanings, cf. "heart" in both Hebrew and English.
Most of the KJV variants referred to above are a matter of closely related concepts, as synonyms for creature, "living thing, beast, fish," for appetite, "heart, pleasure, desire, lust, discontent," and "will." While "any(one), man," and "self (myself, etc.)" occur in KJV, the rendering of nepesh by the simple personal pronoun (often reflexive) is common only in RSV and other recent translations. The seemingly contradictory meaning, "the dead, dead body," found a few times in all three versions, will be analyzed in what follows.
The treatment of nepesh by C. Westermann (THAT, I:71–95) is valuable and should be compared.
The original, concrete meaning of the word was probably "to breathe." The verb occurs three times in the medio-passive Niphal stem with the meaning "to refresh oneself" (Ex 23:12; 31:17; II Sam 16:14). The verb may be a denominative from the substantive, but both ancient and modern Semitic cognates do have a verbal form signifying "to breathe" (cf. Akkadian napāshu "to blow, to breathe out"; (see D. W. Thomas, "A Study in Hebrew Synonyms; Verbs Signifying 'To Breathe' " Zeitschrift fόr Semitisrik 10:311–14). The noun appears to denote "breath" in Gen 1:30: "in which (i.e. the land creatures] is the breath of life." The connection between nepesh and breath is also suggested by such statements as: "and [the Lord] breathed [npḥ] into his [man's] nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen 2:7); and "the nepesh [life/breath/soul] of the child returned and he revived" (I Kgs 21:22).
The case for an original, concrete meaning of "breath" is also suggested by the use of nepesh to denote "throat" in Akkadian, Ugaritic, and Hebrew; e.g., "therefore Sheol had enlarged its throat [NASB; "appetite" in NIV] and opened its mouth without measure" (Isa 5:14; cf.Hab 2:5); "the waters have come up to my neck [NIV]" (Ps 69:2; cf.Jon 2:6).
As in the cognate languages (cf. especially Arabic) nepesh can refer to the appetite. Thus it may denote hunger for food: "You may eat grapes according to your appetite, until you are satisfied" (Deut 23:24; [H 25]; cf.Ps 78:18); "this bread will be for their hunger" (Hos 9:4); "a righteous man cares for the needs of his animals" (Prov 12:10; cf. 10:3; 16:26). So also it can refer to one's spiritua/volitional appetite, that is, "desire" or "will"; e.g. "the enemy said, ... 'my desire shall be gratified against them' " (Ex 15:9; cf.Ezk 16:27; Ps 27:12; 41:3); "then you shall let her go according to her desire" (Deut 21:14; cf.I Sam 2:35 [of God's will] 105:22). Abraham says to Ephron: "if it is your wish ... " (Gen 23:8). The desire of the wicked is condemned (Prov 13:2; 19:2).
About twenty times, however, nepesh is the subject of 'āwâ "to desire," "to crave." Here it is not the hunger/appetite/desire itself but that which possesses the appetite, "the soul." A person, a soul, may crave physical food: "and you say, 'I will eat meat,' because you desire [tĕ'awweh] to eat meat, then you may eat meat, according to the desire of your soul [bĕkol-'awwat napshĕkā]" (Deut 12:20; cf. 14:26; I Sam 2:16). The compound can also speak of the sexual drive: "a wild donkey accustomed to the wilderness, that sniffs the wind has passion [bĕ'awwat napshāh] [Qere and LXX], in the time of her heat who can turn her away" (Jer 2:24). So also it may denote one's spiritual/volitional desire for something. Abner said to David: "that you may be king over all that your soul desires" (II Sam 3:21; I Kgs 11:37). "The desire of the wicked soul is evil" (Prov 21:10). "[what] his soul desires [wĕnapshô 'iwwĕtâ] that he does" (Job 23:13).
The people of Judah desire God's justice: "Yes, lord, walking in the way of your laws, we wait for you; your name and renown are the desire of our hearts [ta'ăwat nāpesh]. My soul yearns for you [napshı̂ 'iwwı̂tı̂kā] for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments came upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness" (Isa 26:8–9; cf.Ps 119:20 and below for numerous passages where nepesh is used to express personal yearning for someone and its inclination and disinclination for someone).
One can also speak of the hungry or thirsty soul: "For he has satisfied the thirsty soul, and the hungry soul he has filled with good things" (Ps 107:9; cf.Prov 19:15; 25:25; 27:7).
Accordingly verb śāba' "to satisfy" occurs often with nepesh: "The dogs are greedy ['azzê-nepesh = "strong of appetite" ], they are not satisfied" (Isa 56:11; cf. 58:10; Jer 50:19). Especially in Ecclesiastes, the soul "craves, lacks," or is "filled with good things" (Eccl 2:24; 4:8; 6:2, 3, 7, 9, and 7:28).
As Isa 26:8–9 suggests, the object of that which the soul craves may be a person. The soul's thirst or language may be directed toward God. The psalmist brings the two notions together thus: "As the deer pants for the water-courses, so my soul pants for you, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When can I go and appear before God" (Ps 42:1, 2 [H 2, 3]; cf.Ps 63:2). In addition to God's presence the soul may long for the law (Ps 119:20), salvation (Ps 119:81); his courts (Ps 84:3); etc.
Thus nepesh occurs with many verbs denoting "yearning"; cf. the idiom he set his soul "to long after, yearn" for someone, something (Deut 24:15; Hos 4:8; Prov 19:18; Jer 22:27; 44:14; etc.). The soul waits for [qwh] the lord (Ps 130:5), seeks [drsh] him (Lam 3:25); etc.
Thus in numerous passages reference is made to the inclination or disinclination of the soul. It is frequently used in connection with "love." The maiden says to her lover: "Tell me, O you whom my soul loves" (Song 1:7; and repeatedly in Song 3:1–4; cf.Jer 12:7; Gen 34:3). It is used not only of the man-woman relationship, but also of the closest human friendships; e.g. of David and Jonathan: "The soul of Jonathan was bound [qāshar] with the soul of David, and he loved him as his own soul." So also it speaks of man's love for God. The psalmist says: "My soul clings [dābaq] to you" (Ps 63:9).
Here too belongs the important exhortation "to love" and "to serve" God with the whole heart and soul (Deut 6:5; 30:6; cf. 4:29; 10:12; 11:13; 13:4; 26:16; 30:2, 6, 10; Josh 22:5; 23:14; I Kgs 2:4; 8:48=II Chr 6:38; etc.). Commenting on Deut 6:5, J. McBride noted: "The three parts of Deuteronomy 6:5; lēbāb (heart), nephesh (soul or life), and me'ōd (muchness) rather than signifying different spheres of biblical psychology seem to be semantically concentric. They were chosen to reinforce the absolute singularity of personal devotion to God. Thus, lēbāb denotes the intention or will of the whole man; nepesh means the whole self, a unity of flesh, will and vitality; and mĕ'ōd accents the superlative degree of total commitment to Yahweh." While agreeing that these terms were chosen to denote the singularity of devotion, we would now underscore nepesh as pertaining to the personal desire or inclination.
For the turning away of the soul from someone/something, nepesh occurs with such words as śānē' "to hate" (II Sam 5:8; Isa 1:14 [of God's hatred]; Ps 11:5); gā'al "abhor" (Lev 26:11, 15, 30, 43=of a fractured God—man relationship); qûṣ "loathe" (Num 21:5); etc.
Thus nepesh is frequently used in connection with the emotional states of joy and bliss. The Psalmist suggests the relationship between these ideas when he prays: "Bring joy to the soul of your servant, for I long (I lift up my soul, napshı̂ 'eśśā') for you, O Lord" (Ps 86:4). Not only can the soul be joyful because its desires are met but also because of its appreciation for the inherent worth of something which delights its tastes: "Pleasant words are ... sweet to the soul" (Prov 16:23). When filled with the sayings of the wise, the son will find that "Knowledge will be pleasant to [his] soul" (Prov 2:10). A disciplined son "will delight your soul" (Prov 29:17). Fully satisfied in the lord the soul praises him [Ps 103:1, 2, 22; 104:1, 35; etc.). But the wicked, having depended upon themselves, praise themselves (Ps 49:19).
It also follows that the soul can be bitter. Fifteen times it occurs with the root mārar. With his health and well-being broken, Job complained: "The Almighty has embittered my soul" (Job 27:2). Provoked by her rival on account of her barrenness, Hannah was one "bitter of soul" (mārat nepesh) (I Sam 1:10; cf.Jud 18:25; etc.). Related to mārar are many different expressions of sorrow with the soul. Jeremiah says to his people: "But if you will not listen to it [the word of God], my soul will sob in secret ... " (Jer 13:17; cf.passim).
In Isa 10:18nepesh is employed alongside of bāśār, "flesh"=physical body as a merism to denote the whole person. It is also used in parallel with bāśār, NIV interprets this as a figure for totality: "completely," "flesh" in Ps 63:1 [H 2] for the same reason.
Since personal existence by its very nature involves drives, appetites, desires, will, nepesh denotes the "life" of an individual. As the object of the verb shûb "to revive" "to restore" nepesh moves between the notion of "soul" and "life." Jerusalem laments: "Because far from me is a comforter, One who restores my soul/life" (Lam 1:16). The women of Bethlehem pray for Naomi: "May he [Obed] be to you a restorer of life [nepesh], and a sustainer of your old age (Ruth 4:15; Ps 23:3; Lam 1:11; Ps 18:8; Prov 25:13). What is meant in these passages is life which consists of emotions, passions, drives, appetites.
It also moves between these two notions with the word ḥāyâ "to live." Abraham instructs Sarah to say she is his sister "so that it may go well with me on account of you and my soul may continue in life" (Gen 12:13; cf.Gen 19:20; 20:32; Isa 55:3; etc.). But here it is also equivalent to "self." nepesh with the notion of "life" refers to the "I" that hungers and is filled, loves and hates, is joyful and sorrowful, etc. It adds an intensely personal element to the notion of self. Indeed nepesh could be substituted with the personal pronoun in these passages, but the intensity of feeling would be lost.
Accordingly, in some passages nepesh is best translated by "life," but "life" here denotes the living self with all its drives, not the abstract notion "life" which is conveyed by ḥayyim, nor the other meaning of ḥayyim which refers to a quality of existence as well as the temporal notion of being (cf. the use of ḥayyim in Deut and Prov). Westermann noted that when nepesh occurs as the subject of the verb it is usually rendered "soul"—desires, inclinations, etc.; as the object of the verb it is frequently rendered by "life"—the state of personal existence as over against death.
Many passages refer to the "saving" of a man's nepesh "life". In fact, almost all the verbs within this semantic notion take nepesh as their object: with nāṣal "and deliver our lives from death" (Josh 2:13; Isa 44:20; passim), with mālaṭ: "if you do not save your life tonight, tomorrow you will be put to death" (I Sam 19:11); cf.II Sam 19:6; passim); with ḥālaṣ, "rescue my life" (Ps 6:5); with yāsha', "he will save the lives of the needy" (Ps 72:13); etc. The psalmist is confident that God will even "redeem" (pādâ) his life out of the grave (Ps 49:15 [H 16]). In all these passages "life" is equivalent to the person.
It has also this notion of saving the "life"="individual" in certain prepositional phrases. Thus Elijah "ran for his life ['el napshô] I Kgs 19:3); "take heed for your lives (Jer 17:21); etc. When one risks his life it is said that he takes his nepesh into his hands (Judg 12:3; passim).
Then too, it is usually rendered "life" after verbs denoting "keeping" "preserving" "sustaining" etc. Thus it occurs: with shāmar "to keep" (Deut 4:9); with sāmak "to sustain" (Ps 54:6); with ḥāsaq "to hold back [from the grave]" (Ps 78:50); etc.
The nepesh "life" is most precious. Thus the captain prays to Elijah: "O man of God, please let my life and the lives of these fifty servants of yours be precious in your sight" (II Kgs 1:13; cf.I Sam 26:21); etc. In some situations a monetary payment can be given for the life (cf.Ex 21:30; 30:12).
In the lex talionis formula "life for life" nepesh denotes the precious individual, the living self (Ex 21:23; Lev 24:18; Deut 19:21; cf.I Kgs 20:39, 42; II Kgs 10:24; etc.).
Here too belongs Lev 17:11, one of the most decidedly theological and distinctively meaningful passages where the word nepesh is of major significance, and one which certainly defines the term as meaning life "for the life (nepesh) of the flesh (bāśār) is in the blood." Here it is the vitality, the passionate existence of an individual which is denoted.
Then too it is frequently said that the enemy threatens the individual's life. Thus it occurs as the objects of: bāqash "to seek" (Ex 4:19; passim); 'ārab "to lie in ambush for" (Ps 59:3 [H 4]) etc. Sometimes God's destruction of the life, the individual is in view: "Do not take away my life with sinners" (Ps 26:9).
It comes as no surprise, then, that in some contexts nepesh is best rendered by "person," "self," or more simply by the personal pronoun. Westermann says that it is best rendered by such English equivalents in casuistic law, in the enumeration of people, in the general designation of people and as a substitute for a pronoun. An example of its use in legal contexts with such particles as 'asher or kı̂ is: "Now when anyone [nepesh kı̂] presents a grain offering" (Lev 2:1; cf. 4:2; 5:1, 2; passim). Again, "But the person who [wĕhannepesh 'ăsher] eats the flesh ... " (Lev 7:20; passim). Similarly it has this notion in enumerations: "These are the people whom Nebuchadnezzar carried away captive ... in the eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar 832 persons [nepesh] ... " (Jer 52:28, 29; Ex 12:4, passim). So also with reference to "people" "he [shall be valued] according to the valuation of persons belonging to the lord" (Lev 27:2; passim). As a substitute for a pronoun it frequently occurs with the pronominal suffix. Thus Lot said to the lord: "That I [napshı̂ = "my soul" ] may live" (Gen 19:19; passim). Although it appears to be an equivalent of the personal pronoun, its intensive, passionate sense peculiar to the word is always present. A. R. Johnson speaks of it as "a pathetic (i.e. in the sense of deeply emotional) periphrasis for a pronoun" (The Vitality of the Individual in the Thought of Ancient Israel, 1964, p. 22).
A total of 755 occurrences of the noun nepesh have been counted in the ot, and of these it is rendered in the Greek translation (LXX) some 600 times by the psyche (ψυχή). Of the 144 times it is used in the Psalms, over 100 of them have the first person suffix, "my soul." Thus in its most synthetic use nepesh stands for the entire person. In Gen 2:7 "man became a living creature" [nepesh]—the substantive must not be taken in the metaphysical, theological sense in which we tend to use the term "soul" today. Precisely the same Hebrew expression (nepesh ḥayyâ)—traditionally rendered "living soul" occurs also in Gen 1:20, 21, and 24. In other words, man is here being associated with the other creatures as sharing in the passionate experience of life and is not being defined as distinct from them. It is true, however, as Oehler points out that the source of the nepesh of animals is the ground, whereas the source of the nepesh of Adam is God.
Particular note should be taken of the antonymous translation, "the dead, dead body" found in Lev 19:28; 21:1, 11; Num 5:2; 6:6, 11; 9:6, 7, 10; etc. In these citations, "the dead" stands for nepesh by itself, while "dead body" renders nepesh/napshōt mēt. The latter indicates "a person (persons) who has died," the emphasis being on the personal identity of an 'individual,' so that in context the term nepesh by itself refers to a dead individual, "one who has died," and the word itself does not really mean physical 'body.'
The use of nepesh with reference to God is rare since God does not have the cravings and appetites common to man nor is his life limited by death. In addition to the passages already noted, we cite several more where the word is used to express forcefully his passionate disinclination or inclination toward someone. The former is more frequent. Thus he threatens: "Be warned, O Jerusalem, lest I/My soul be alienated from you" (Jer 6:8); cf.Jer 5:9, 29; 9:8; 15:1; passim). On the other hand his passionate love, delight and inclination toward his servant is spoken of thus: "My chosen one in whom my soul delights" (Isa 42:1).
It must not be concluded from this study of nepesh that the ot presents man as physical only. There are other ot ideas to be considered in this connection: (1) the ot teaching concerning the "spirit" of man; (2) the ot teaching concerning the heart (lēb) of man; (3) the subject of the image of God (see ṣelem) in man; and (4) the picture as given of man's relation to God.
Bibliography: Briggs, C. A., "The Use of npsh in the OT," JBL 16. 17–30. Becker, J. H., Het Begrip Nefesj in het Oude Testament, 1942. Buswell, J. O., A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, Zondervan, 1962, vol. II, pp. 237–41. Seligson, M., The Meaning of npsh mt in the Old Testament, 1951; cf. Widengren, G., VT 4:97–102. Murtonen, A., The Living Soul, 1958. Lys, D., Nepesh, 1959. Johnson, A. R., The Vitality of the Individual in the Thought of Ancient Israel, 1949. Wolff, H. W., Anthropology of the Old Testament. Westermann, C., "Naefaes" in THAT, II, pp. 71–95. Richardson, TWB, pp. 144–45. TDOT, IX, pp. 617–37.
B.K.W.
:2c: when Father proposed to make man in His image....He said ,MY GLORY WILL NOTBE GIVE UN TO ANOTHER. Man is 'the GLORY" of God..when in
His image. When man is as a beast[lacking understanding] if he but touch the mountain he wll die. Look at the Glory on HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN...
a child will place his hand in the cobras nest. Isaaih11...the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord[mountain that fills the earth]
the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him..spirit of Wisdom,understanding,counsel and power. The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord...
AND HE WILL DELIGHT IN THE FEAR OF THE LORD....
why would the annointed 'delight' in the fear of the Lord? Gen Be fruitful and increase in number[from 666]
FILL THE EARTH....[mountain fills the earth] AND SUBDUE IT....RULE OVER THE FISH OF THE SEA[Leviathan/Beast out of sea] and
THE BIRDS OF THE AIR[Gen 15;11]...AND EVERY LIVING CREATURE THAT MOVES ON THE GROUND[unclean beasts]/lower carnal understanding/beast
out of Land]
Dominion and rulership in the Glory of God and image of God..over leasser creations is the CROWNING GLORY OF MAN IN THE IMAGE OF GOD
Dominion over the WIND AND SEA[Ephes 4;14,James1;6 then we will no longer be infants tossed back and forth by the waves,and blown here and
there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming..Mark 4;39]
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2011, 06:26:22 PM
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all i
s vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
It always annoys me at funerals when the minister quotes the curse on Adam before he was kicked out of the garden--for dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return--dust to dust.
As though the work of Jesus had not been finished. As though the work of Jesus had not even been started.
I am going to have to write my own funeral. :laughing7:
Quote from: wwIt is true, however, as Oehler points out that the source of the nepesh of animals is the ground, whereas the source of the nepesh of Adam is God.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
--Acts 2:27
I do not wish to stray from the topic but I must ask....
"As though the work of Jesus had not been finished. As though the work of Jesus had not even been started." (Molly)
I take it you do not accept Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. ?
May I inquire as to how your epitaph would read?
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: wwIt is true, however, as Oehler points out that the source of the nepesh of animals is the ground, whereas the source of the nepesh of Adam is God.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
--Acts 2:27
So?
Quote from: MicahI take it you do not accept Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
That's Solomon going through his 'all is vanity' stage which he took to the extreme with thousands of horses and hundreds of wives.
So, no I don't accept it or I would be living like Solomon.
I like Ben Franklin's epitaph, though. :icon_jokercolor:
Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)
The body of
B. Franklin,
Printer,
Like the cover of an old book
its contents torn out,
and stripped of its lettering and gilding,
lies here, food for worms.
But the work shall not be wholly lost,
for it will, as he believed, appear once more,
in a new and more perfect edition,
corrected and amended
by the Author.
O!
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 07:42:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: wwIt is true, however, as Oehler points out that the source of the nepesh of animals is the ground, whereas the source of the nepesh of Adam is God.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
--Acts 2:27
So?
7The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Fear Jehovah, ye His holy ones, For there is no lack to those fearing Him.
22The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.--Psa 39
I have no plans of dust being heaped on my face; AGAIN !
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 08:07:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2011, 07:42:37 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2011, 07:16:15 PM
Quote from: wwIt is true, however, as Oehler points out that the source of the nepesh of animals is the ground, whereas the source of the nepesh of Adam is God.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.
--Acts 2:27
So?
7The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Fear Jehovah, ye His holy ones, For there is no lack to those fearing Him.
22The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.
--Psa 39
Why a totally off-topic post?
HI ww
I will let Molly speak for herself....
but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered" That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust
He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came
' I am returning to My father and your Father....and you know the way....
see...He did not leave our soul in hell....He sent His Son....I am the resurrection
Father,into your hands I deliver my spirit when he had said that....he breathed his last
Quote from: sheila on July 20, 2011, 10:42:47 PM
HI ww
I will let Molly speak for herself....
but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered" That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust
He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on July 20, 2011, 10:42:47 PM
HI ww
I will let Molly speak for herself....
but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered" That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust
He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came
Well by golly you got us back on the topic. When did this "lowering of spirit" take place? please scripture and verse. Ill refer back to 1Co 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Thank you again. :grin:
Hadn't Adam already "fallen" before he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And it was because he had already been lowered from a higher realm that he did partake of this tree.
Ps. 8:4-5; "What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels..."
The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is the Old Testament word for GOD.
The phrase "made a little lower that the angels" could be translated from the Hebrew text, "You have caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM."
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2011, 11:54:24 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 20, 2011, 10:42:47 PM
HI ww
I will let Molly speak for herself....
but I do not see her post as off topic due to topic of 'lowered" That which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust
He will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came
Well by golly you got us back on the topic. When did this "lowering of spirit" take place? please scripture and verse. Ill refer back to 1Co 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Thank you again. :grin:
20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
--Rom 8
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 21, 2011, 12:32:02 AM
Hadn't Adam already "fallen" before he partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
And it was because he had already been lowered from a higher realm that he did partake of this tree.
Ps. 8:4-5; "What is man, that You are mindful of him? and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels..."
The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is the Old Testament word for GOD.
The phrase "made a little lower that the angels" could be translated from the Hebrew text, "You have caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM."
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
In the margin of my Bible it has, Psalm 8:4-5Thank you friend for pointing that out :bigGrin:
There are only nine verses to it.
(CLV) for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.
(KJV) For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
(Amp)Lev 17:11 For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].
(Rotherham)Lev 17:11 For, as for the life of the flesh, in the blood, it is, therefore have, I, given it unto you upon the altar, to put a propitiatory–covering over your lives,––for, the blood, it is, which, by virtue of the life, maketh propitiation.
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life.'(Comp. Jewish Bible 1998)
Life and soul are the same. Until we get to the NT and then soul becomes the self,ego. I prefer sentient over soul, but thats just me.
Can we see here how the word soul and life are played with especially with the KJV. Our life(soul) is the blood; man was a living soul. If he were a "spirit" first, then mans life/soul would not be in the blood.
I love the work of Bro. Eby. I read and learned much from his work for more that 30 years. May I say this with no animosity or discord, The Spirit is revealing many things To Day, while it is called To Day, and certainly the pioneers of the Kingdom message are not without fault. I will stand with Paul, 1Co 15:45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I would like to ask a question.
Why is it, that believing man/adam, was first a spirit and lowered to the flesh, better than believing man/adam was first a living/breathing creature?
What advantage does that give man?
Why did Paul write ICor.15:45 like he did if there is more to see?
Well I see I have made three questions oops :sigh:
Thank you again :grin:
Here's a nice excerpt from Bro. Eby's, "THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS."
"And the Lord God FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Reading this passage we have the definite assurance that, as man has been first created" in the spiritual image of God, a further work is being carried forth and the man is now being "formed" into another expression: "FORMED of the dust of the ground," thus BECOMING a "living soul" - manifest in the earth realm.
The first is the created man, the second the formed man. The first is a spiritual man bearing God's image, the second a physical man. The first bears the image of the heavenly, while the second bears the image of the earthly. The first is known unto God in the Spirit, the second is manifest to the physical world. The first dwells in the ONENESS of God, the second is divided in the realm of the flesh.
The very fact that the scripture states that Adam became a living soul, reveals that there was a process of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm.
I'll address question two: "What advantage does that give man? "
God is spirit; if man was initially created flesh he would not be in His image and likeness.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 21, 2011, 07:34:08 AM
I'll address question two: "What advantage does that give man? "
God is spirit; if man was initially created flesh he would not be in His image and likeness.
We...know so much. The image and likeness of of God, just what is that?
"
Reading this passage we have the definite assurance that, as man has been first created" in the spiritual image of God.." Beloved Servant
What definite assurance?
"The
very fact that the scripture states that Adam became a living soul, reveals that there was a process of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm." Beloved Servant
Should that be the "very fact," I ask why is it that you and Bro. Eby see it and Paul was totally unaware of this "Very fact?"
Genesis 1:26 &27 is God speaking what will be, not that it is.
Heb 11:1 And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,
Gen 17:4 And speaking with him is the Elohim, saying, "I, behold! My covenant is with you. And you are to become the forefather of a throng of nations.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 21, 2011, 08:15:00 AM
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
AMEN! and AMEN! God is spirit!
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 21, 2011, 07:59:13 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 21, 2011, 07:34:08 AM
I'll address question two: "What advantage does that give man? "
God is spirit; if man was initially created flesh he would not be in His image and likeness.
We...know so much. The image and likeness of of God, just what is that?
Is it really the likeness of God? Even image is a disputed translation.
Quote from: sheila on July 20, 2011, 10:42:47 PM
HI ww
I will let Molly speak for herself....
Gonna be along wait because she is avoiding what I posted.
Quotebut I do not see her post as off topic
100% off topic
Quotedue to topic of 'lowered"
She turned it into a soul spirit topic. I reply to that. Then I expect a serious answer. Not just a few totally irrelevant verses (without even bothering to explain the connection)
QuoteThat which is born of spirit is spirit..and though spirit was lowered into death realm/dust
And? I hope you are not just linking verses based on the word spirit...
QuoteHe will not leave it there,for it shall return from whence it came
It's raining outside. Also a true but irrelvant statement.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 21, 2011, 05:25:29 AM
I would like to ask a question.
Why is it, that believing man/adam, was first a spirit and lowered to the flesh, better than believing man/adam was first a living/breathing creature?
I think a better question would be: What is the proof? That's what it's all about. Isn't it?
There are some verses that seem to be about pre-existance.
I think we can conclude with high certainty that man was not the first living/breating creature.
For example in Genesis 1:20 we have birds. Birds breath. Long before man.
What if it's both?
Man was created a "living/breathing creature". But at that point from a Biblical pov that man is still an animal.
The AFTER that a pre-existing spirit from heaven is lowered in that body.
:dontknow:
Quote from: wwWhat if it's both?
Man was created a "living/breathing creature". But at that point from a Biblical pov that man is still an animal.
The AFTER that a pre-existing spirit from heaven is lowered in that body.
No animal was ever created in the image and likeness of God. That's a fact.
So to call man an 'animal' is to call God an animal. I know there are people who worship cows. I also know there are people who treat other people like cattle.
There is a qualitative difference between man and the animals, for which reason man has dominion over the animals. For which reason, also, Jesus could say, as he walked the earth in the body of a man, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
--Gen 1
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lowerH2637 H4592 than the angels,H4480 H430 and hast crownedH5849 him with gloryH3519 and honour.H1926
"For thou hast made him a little lower"
H2637
חסר
châsêr
khaw-sare'
A primitive root; to lack; by implication to fail, want, lessen: - be abated, bereave, decrease, (cause to) fail, (have) lack, make lower, want.
H4592
מעט מעט
me‛aṭ me‛âṭ
meh-at', meh-awt'
From H4591; a little or few (often adverbial or comparative): - almost, (some, very) few (-er, -est), lightly, little (while), (very) small (matter, thing), some, soon, X very.
"than the angels"
H4480
מנּי מנּי מן
min minnı̂y minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.
H430
אלהים
'ĕlôhı̂ym
el-o-heem'
Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
The way I read this is man is a lowered elohiym, but still crowned with glory and honor by the LORD.
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2011, 10:36:38 AM
Quote from: wwWhat if it's both?
Man was created a "living/breathing creature". But at that point from a Biblical pov that man is still an animal.
The AFTER that a pre-existing spirit from heaven is lowered in that body.
No animal was ever created in the image and likeness of God. That's a fact.
Not relevant.
QuoteSo to call man an 'animal' is to call God an animal.
You don't expect me to fall for that. Are you? :laughing7:
1] God created an animal and the added something that makes it a man.
2] Image is NOT likeness. It means OPPOSITE.
3] To use your words: Is God a lying, stealing, murdering, raping, stupid, peson that lives about 75 years? Afteral you use that way of comparing with animals.
QuoteI know there are people who worship cows.
Not relevant.
/EDIT the whole "lowered thing" is about becoming inferior. Or more precise: Lowered even more because that spirit was never as high as God Himself I assume.
Quote from: wwNot relevant
Who are you? The Prosecutor? Well, I'm the Judge then. Over ruled!
QuoteTo use your words: Is God a lying, stealing, murdering, raping, stupid, peson that lives about 75 years? Afteral you use that way of comparing with animals.
Unwillingly made subject to vanity, in hope--Remember?
QuoteImage is NOT likeness. It means OPPOSITE.
Opposite? Where do you get that?
"in his own image"H6754
צלם
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion,
resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: -
image, vain shew.
QuoteGod created an animal and the added something that makes it a man.
I don't even know what to say about this. Adds something that makes 'it' a man?
God created all animals and man discretely. I am not just a monkey with language.
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2011, 11:17:09 AMThe way I read this is man is a lowered elohiym, but still crowned with glory and honor by the LORD.
So you agree we are not teh image of God.
God is not lowered. He's extremely high. And that part is only about the spirit.
Then we have the body. Demons possed a person. Jesus commanded them into swine. Same demons transfered different bodies.
A body is just a place wher the spirit is 'stored' for a lifetime.
God = Spirit ==> so it's wrong to look at the body/storage/vessel. Only the spirit inside should be compared. And that spirit is lowered. Inferior. Therefore it's by defenition not like God. It's a schadow (=image) of God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 21, 2011, 11:43:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2011, 11:17:09 AMThe way I read this is man is a lowered elohiym, but still crowned with glory and honor by the LORD.
So you agree we are not teh image of God.
God is not lowered. He's extremely high. And that part is only about the spirit.
Then we have the body. Demons possed a person. Jesus commanded them into swine. Same demons transfered different bodies.
A body is just a place wher the spirit is 'stored' for a lifetime.
God = Spirit ==> so it's wrong to look at the body/storage/vessel. Only the spirit inside should be compared. And that spirit is lowered. Inferior. Therefore it's by defenition not like God. It's a schadow (=image) of God.
The Man is an image of God. Adam is also called the image of the one to come, meaning Jesus.
You say, it's lowered so it's not like...
I think of it more as status--if I were a Queen or a chambermaid, I would still be the same person.
Our status is, for the time being, lowered, but it will be restored. We are to be co-inheritors with Christ, and reign and rule with him.
How much can status lowered until it become an insult to the original.
Let's
assume God has an an IQ of 1000. Would it be fair to compare with an IQ of 999? 800? 100? 50?
Can a sinless God be compared with someone that sinned once in a life time? 100x? 1000x Several times daily?
If there is an exact image of God and all kind of negative human qualities are added it no longer is an image.
Once again there is no agreement on the translation of image.
Shadow or outline are consired better translations.
QuoteThe Man is an image of God.
Man is the shaow of God.
QuoteAdam is also called the image of the one to come,
Adam is the shadow of things to come.
Quotemeaning Jesus.
Who proves anybody before Him were a very sad excuse of an image.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 21, 2011, 12:25:17 PM
How much can status lowered until it become an insult to the original.
Let's assume God has an an IQ of 1000. Would it be fair to compare with an IQ of 999? 800? 100? 50?
Can a sinless God be compared with someone that sinned once in a life time? 100x? 1000x Several times daily?
If there is an exact image of God and all kind of negative human qualities are added it no longer is an image.
Once again there is no agreement on the translation of image.
Shadow or outline are consired better translations.
QuoteThe Man is an image of God.
Man is the shaow of God.
QuoteAdam is also called the image of the one to come,
Adam is the shadow of things to come.
Quotemeaning Jesus.
Who proves anybody before Him were a very sad excuse of an image.
I'm not sure what your point is. Is it your intent to say that man is nothing at all like elohiym? Or is a poor resemblance? Or God didn't mean what he said in Gen 1:26 or what?
Remember how Jesus loved his disciples, even though they kept misunderstanding, and getting things wrong, and doing the wrong thing? Do you think their 'IQ' mattered to him?
He loves us because of who we are, not because of what we are, just like we love our own children--unconditionally. And, how could you possibly know what we will be when we receive our inheritance?
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in him, purifleth himself even as He is pure."
(I John III: v. 2, 3).
I think what wings is saying is that if man was created in Gods image then, he should be perfect and therefore not fail the test of the tree, or to not have high and lofty thoughts of becoming like God.
I guess it depends oh what that image represents. Is Adam simply a copy of God?
The way I see it is simply that Adam has been created complete with Gods power. But Gods morality and sense of justice was not given, but something to learn.
Or the alternative I reason is that
Adam was created in Gods image but God is gigantic and without limits. But Adam is like a miniature God, and so therefore cannot be compared To God, because he is not even close to His power and majesty, and maybe this fact allowed the serpent to overcome them. Since only God has power over the devil. We as believers only have power of evil, in Christs name, not in our own name.
Also Adam is only a baby. God is ancient and all wise. Adam and Eve did not know about the true nature of Gods message of ye shall surely die. Otherwise they would not have listened to the serpent.
Also God has knowledge of both good and evil. Adam and Eve did not have this knowledge until they partake of the tree of good and evil.
Now the above is talking about Adam as a living soul. So I assume, that Adam and Eve as a soul would have to learn their new bodily Earthly functions, just as a new born child would.
So maybe by being Earthly dust beings, they no longer have that knowledge or privileges of earthly heaven spoken of in Gen 1 , so they must learn new way of dust based earthly clay living soul living, and this takes place before they partake of the tree of good and evil.
:2c:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when He shall appear we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in him, purifleth himself even as He is pure."
(I John III: v. 2, 3).
Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them. I contend that God is still working on this.
2Co 4:18 we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during.
Molly you dont believe what is written in Ecc.? Why do you think so highly of man/adam?
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
Matt 12;42
The Quenn of the South ..........WILL RISE AT THE JUDGEMENT WITH THIS GENERATION AND CONDEMN IT
FOR SHE CAME FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO LISTEN TO SOLOMON'S WISDOM
AND NOW,ONE GREATER THAN SOLOMON IS HERE
Dark am I,yet lovely...O'daughter's of Jerusalem...dark like the tents of Kedar...LIKE THE TENT CURTAINS OF SOLOMON
tell me,you whom I lovewhere you graze your flock and where you rest your sheep at mid-day[brightest light]
WHY SHOULD I BE LIKE A VEILED WOMAN BESIDE THE FLOCKS OF YOUR FREINDS?
if you do not know,most beautiful of women.......follow the tracks of the sheep..........and graze your young goats by the tents of the shepherds
...and now one greater than Jonah is here.
I tell you that one greater than the temple is here.
This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
--Heb 2:11,12
Psa 149:1 Praise ye Jehovah. Sing unto Jehovah a new song, And his praise in the assembly of the saints.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 22, 2011, 04:00:51 AM
Psa 149:1 Praise ye Jehovah. Sing unto Jehovah a new song, And his praise in the assembly of the saints.
He will sing Adam's praises in the midst of ekklesia.
Adam and the sons of Adam are redeemed by a kinsman redeemer, a family member who buys back a relative's property for a ransom.
If nothing was lost, then what is being bought back?
Don't you know that you were bought at a price?
When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.
He has purchased us back. So aren't we being restored to where we began?
"redeem"H1350
גּאל
gâ'algaw-al'
A primitive root,
to redeem according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to
buy back a relative's propertymarry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do,
perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase,
ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.
"So aren't we being restored to where we began?"
Yes I do. The Lord has me looking into it further.
Isa 43:19 Behold Me doing a new thing. Now is it sprouting. Are you not knowing it? Indeed, I am placing a way in the wilderness, tracks in the desolation."
But if man/adam was lowered from a spirit realm the Paul didnt get it.
He is doing a NEW THING, is there restoring, yes I believe so, but new is not re....newed.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 22, 2011, 05:50:10 AM
"So aren't we being restored to where we began?"
Yes I do. The Lord has me looking into it further.
Isa 43:19 Behold Me doing a new thing. Now is it sprouting. Are you not knowing it? Indeed, I am placing a way in the wilderness, tracks in the desolation."
But if man/adam was lowered from a spirit realm the Paul didnt get it.
He is doing a NEW THING, is there restoring, yes I believe so, but new is not re....newed.
So are you thinking we are being restored but to a higher position? Because of the work of Christ?
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
--Phil 2:9
21Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.
22A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time.
--Isa 60
Beyond Eden.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2011, 06:24:34 AM
Beyond Eden.
Good title for a book. :winkgrin:
I keep thinking I'm missing something. Adam, who is the image of the one to come, shows many parallels to Jesus. For one, Adam to Eve is as Jesus to the church. But, if Adam and Eve had remained in the garden, we would not now have a huge company, a troop of believers, multitudes greater than the sands of the sea. So, a small one has become a strong nation. We are a nation of priests, with Jesus as the chief high priest, a nation of kings, with Jesus as the King of kings--a peculiar people. In this way our restoration will be greater than the original Man in the garden--one has become a thousand. But are there other ways, as well?
HE IS CREATING A NEW HEAVENS....not just a new earth.....
a mere woman shall encompass a man.......He exalts what He has humbled....in the place where it was said,'Not my people, you shall be called the SONS OF GOD"
the Kingdom of the Love of His son
the original Adam was naked......
Proverbs 8;22 The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works[Wisdom],BEFORE HIS DEEDS OF OLD...I was appointed from eternity
from the beginning,before the world began. When there were no oceans I was given birth,when there were no springs abounding with water
before the mountains were settled in place....before He made the earth or the feild or any of the dust of the world....
I was there when He set the haevens in place.......v30 then I was a craftsman at His side......REJOICING IN hIS WHOLE WORLD AND
DELIGHTING IN MANKIND.......v 31 NOW THEN MY SONS,LISTEN TO ME
The Above is Wisdoms call.......OF WHICH jESUS WAS WITH HER...AND STATED hE WAS FROM ABOVE
Mattew 11;19 the Son of Man came eating and drinking,and they say,'HERE IS A GLUTTON AND A FREIND OF TAX-COLLECTORS AND 'SINNERS'
but wisdom is proved righteous by her sons
Quote from: Molly on July 22, 2011, 01:54:58 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 22, 2011, 06:24:34 AM
Beyond Eden.
Good title for a book. :winkgrin:
I keep thinking I'm missing something. Adam, who is the image of the one to come, shows many parallels to Jesus. For one, Adam to Eve is as Jesus to the church. But, if Adam and Eve had remained in the garden, we would not now have a huge company, a troop of believers, multitudes greater than the sands of the sea. So, a small one has become a strong nation. We are a nation of priests, with Jesus as the chief high priest, a nation of kings, with Jesus as the King of kings--a peculiar people. In this way our restoration will be greater than the original Man in the garden--one has become a thousand. But are there other ways, as well?
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and
His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Quote from: sheila on July 22, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
HE IS CREATING A NEW HEAVENS....not just a new earth.....
a mere woman shall encompass a man.......He exalts what He has humbled....in the place where it was said,'Not my people, you shall be called the SONS OF GOD"
the Kingdom of the Love of His son
the original Adam was naked......
I am overwhelmed with joy in the LORD my God! For he has dressed me with the clothing of salvation and draped me in a robe of righteousness. I am like a bridegroom in his wedding suit or a bride with her jewels.
--Isa 61:10
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
--Gal 3
Quote from: Molly on July 22, 2011, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 22, 2011, 03:42:49 PM
HE IS CREATING A NEW HEAVENS....not just a new earth.....
a mere woman shall encompass a man.......He exalts what He has humbled....in the place where it was said,'Not my people, you shall be called the SONS OF GOD"
the Kingdom of the Love of His son
the original Adam was naked......
I am overwhelmed with joy in the LORD my God! For he has dressed me with the clothing of salvation and draped me in a robe of righteousness. I am like a bridegroom in his wedding suit or a bride with her jewels.
--Isa 61:10
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
--Gal 3
Amen and Amen
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 22, 2011, 05:50:10 AM
"So aren't we being restored to where we began?"
No... Joh 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
You will be a new creation but from the dead... Gal 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision,
but a new creation.
Luk 20:34 Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God,
being sons of the resurrection."
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the
resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live
even if he dies,
You will not be restored to flesh! Even though you have a body... it will not be flesh!
Paul
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 19, 2011, 02:02:43 AM
Where can I find verses in the Bible that clearly state man was lowered from a spirit before he became a living soul? thank you
You can not because man did and does not presist... except in the
Logos (Plan) of God.
Paul
Quote from: PaulYou will not be restored to flesh! Even though you have a body... it will not be flesh!
I have thought we would have a body like the resurrected body of Christ. But, he calls it 'flesh and bone.' It's interesting he doesn't call it 'flesh and blood.' It might be a different kind of flesh? And, we all share the same blood which is his Spirit?
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Quote from: Molly on July 22, 2011, 11:43:57 PM
Quote from: PaulYou will not be restored to flesh! Even though you have a body... it will not be flesh!
I have thought we would have a body like the resurrected body of Christ. But, he calls it 'flesh and bone.' It's interesting he doesn't call it 'flesh and blood.' It might be a different kind of flesh? And, we all share the same blood which is his Spirit?
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
I believe there are at least scriptural
indications (previously noted) that we pre-existed (in a spirit form, not as "man") and that it is pretty
clearly scriptural that upon resurrection, we will have a body. As you guys are saying though, I'm not sure what it will be like or how it will function. Apostle Paul calls it a spiritual body, and as you say, flesh and bones (not flesh and blood). He said there is a fleshly body and a spiritual body. One is sown in corruption (mortality) the other raised in incorruption (immortality).
As far as a new creation, I understand that to be talking about the "born again man", saved from the flesh (i.e., sin and death) - which happens when we're given the faith to believe unto salvation.
Curious, "I believe there are at least scriptural indications that we pre-existed (in a spirit form, not as "man") and that it is pretty clearly scriptural that upon resurrection, we will have a body.
Where might these scriptural indications clearly stated?
Also, when we speak of this "body" I believe that it speaks of the "fleshy body" he is speaking of us as the individual now as we arel, but when Paul speaks of The Body he speaks of ONE BODY.
1Co 12:18 and now, God did set the members each one of them in the body, according as He willed,
1Co 12:19 and if all were one member, where the body?
1Co 12:20 and now, indeed, are many members, and one body;
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
Eph 4:4 one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
1Co 15:22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
Jud 1:9 Now when Michael, the chief messenger, doubting the Adversary, argued concerning the body of Moses, he dares not bring on a calumniating judging, but said,
I reason that "the body of Moses" was/is Israel, one body moving as the Lord led Moses.
I tell you the answer is in Genesis1; 16.....He also made the stars.....stars are sons[suns]...God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on earth
to govern the day and the night...AND TO SEPERATE LIGHT FROM DARKNESS
ch 2;4 when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens- and no shrub on the feil had yet appeared on the earth...
......and there was no man to work the ground....
...why did HE want the ground worked? to sow HIS SEED IN IT[make the clay vessels of which His spirit children would dwell]did you plow with my heifer?
thou has prepared a body for me..............in the lowest depths of the earth I am wonderfully made
[ on the third day He created the stars of Heaven...to give light on earth]
v 29 I GIVE YOU EVERY SEED BEARING PLANT ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH,AND EVERY TREE THAT HAS FRUIT WITH SEED IN IT]
to Abraham he said,I will make your seed as numerous as the sands on the seashore and as multitudous as the stars in heaven
I watched as He OPENED THE SIXTH SEAL v 13 and the STARS OF THE SKY FELL TO THE EARTH....as late figs drop from a fig tree,when shaken
by a strong wind......the sky receded like a scroll,rolling up[all in old heavens sent down for exercize in good and evil] and every mountain and island
was removed from it's place Rev 6;12-14 Jewish GOF
Luke 21;29 Look at the fig trees............this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened
and what shall we speak of the fig tree..or the fig leaf,for that matter..and the fruit thereof
and in our day..we found the Word of God sealed up in clay vessels[Lost Gospel/dead sea scrolls]
Rev 5 the Scroll and the Lamb then I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a scroll with writings on both sides....and
sealed with seven seals
John 15;27
AND YOU ALSO MUST TESTIFY, FOR YOU HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING
Good post, sheila.
Hi micah. In my post, I'm noting two different things. 1) Indications for pre-existence (there are several scrips noted, mostly in the Eby clips which he then expounds upon); and 2) clear scriptures for having a body. The main clear one as I see it, is the 1 Corinthians 15:44 one, which you quoted. Now, how it's interpreted (or better, what it really means) I guess could be open for examination. You've stated a different point of view on it, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'd have to look at it in a larger context of the scriptures before it, to know if it's truly about one corporate body rather than each person having a spiritual body. It's an interesting thing you've suggested, and I'll look at it further. James.
Curious, "I believe there are at least scriptural indications that we pre-existed (in a spirit form, not as "man") and that it is pretty clearly scriptural that upon resurrection, we will have a body.
Where might these scriptural indications clearly stated?
Quote from: MicahWhere might these scriptural indications clearly stated?
4According as
he hath chosen us in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having
predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
--Eph 1
Secrets of Enoch 30;12
I conceived a cunning saying to say, I CREATED MAN FROM VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE NATURE
of BOTH are his death and life and image..... small in his greatness and great in his smallness
...and I placed him on earth
I'll go back and pull some excerpts with scrips from my earlier posts. :bigGrin:
Also, I've looked at the context of the scripture of I Cor. 15, and I personally see individual bodies being discussed, not one corporate body. It appears to me that it's talking about the resurrection of the dead, not an allegory or symbolism of the "church" or mankind as a whole. :dontknow:
A Glorious Body
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Interesting commentary;
Our Final Victory
In 1 Corinthians 15, the "Resurrection Chapter", Paul begins talking about the Gospel being death, burial and resurrection for more reasons than that simply because it happened! It is the basis for our understanding of our own resurrection! Paul did not talk about the death, burial, resurrection and another step about changing in clouds, as I knew one man to propose, as the origin where Jesus really got His spiritual body. There is nothing in the Bible that says His body changed in the clouds. The body we will receive is similar to the body Jesus had in his resurrection from the grave. So the Gospel issue is mentioned to introduce the point of our resurrections.
Paul is showing a pattern in Christ that we will experience in our resurrection. He does not mention the names of people who witnessed the resurrection just to show that Jesus arose. That is also part of the introduction to the point of the pattern of our resurrection. The Body Jesus had when he was seen by so many, is the body we will have when we are resurrected. Seeing no relevance of these first two points with the rest of the chapter's context concerning our resurrection, causes us to be offkey in our thoughts about what body we will have. We do not thereby see the contextual flow and pattern of thought in Paul's foundational notes of Christ's resurrection and his new body compared to our resurrections into which our bodies will be changed. Paul spoke so much about Jesus' "resurrected-from-the-grave" body, because that is the body we will have in the resurrection.
We must not leave all these former points in the early part of this chapter as disjointed from the entire context. Let us recognize and see the contextual flow and link of these first thoughts with the overall issue of our resurrection bodies. Paul spoke about more than the fact that Jesus is the resurrection. He said that the kind of body Jesus was raised with in resurrection is the same kind of body we shall have in our resurrection. To claim our resurrection bodies are "spiritual" in the sense of being unseen and non-physical, more like non-bodies than bodies, is error. However, they are termed "spiritual" bodies. But some make the mistake of thinking a spiritual body is not physical. Our resurrection is going to involve physical bodies as Jesus had when He was resurrected from the grave, not a so-called body he got only after going into the clouds. We shall follow Him in resurrection by getting a body like Jesus had in resurrection from the grave. Paul would not be talking about the body Jesus obtained when He came from the grave if we are not going to see our present physical bodies changed into those similar to such. We would not be reading these references in the first part of the chapter if our new bodies are not going to be like the one with which He arose from the grave. Paul would not relate our bodily resurrection to Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection in the manner in which he did if our bodies will not be like the body with whcih Jesus Christ resurrected. http://mikeblume.com/1cor15res.htm
you would have had to live before to be resurrected from the dead.....
for the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will,but by the will of Him who subjected it..in order to set it free
into the glorious freedom of the sons of God......
the creature already was..before it was subjected to vanity....vanity is emptiness[you have no life in yourself...you can do nothing unless you remain
in me]
Paul said, Once I was alive,apart from law, but then the commandment came....."
Well, let me say - I'm pretty sure I'm missing some things, and I may be wrong about pre-existence. So I say I "tend to think" and that there are "scriptural indications" - not that I'm dogmatically insisting it's 100% the way it is. With that being said, I do think it's something intrigueing to consider. Here are some scrips that may indicate, along with just a little interpretation from the previous Eby quotes.
In Gen. 1:26 we see the wonderful advent of man created "in the image and likeness of God," a SPIRITUAL MAN brought forth out of the very SPIRIT-SUBSTANCE of God Almighty and bearing His own divine nature, character and attributes.
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:7). Job was speechless, for he had no idea where he was in that time of long ago, but the truth, it seems to me, was that Job was there among the company of the sons of God, beholding with wonder the plan of God on earth with its sufferings and testiness and the glory that should follow.
In the ninetieth Psalm referred to above the prophet David assures us with great plainness of speech that the Lord has been our dwelling place in all generations. Even before the mountains were brought forth or God had formed the earth, from everlasting to everlasting He is God and in Him we dwelt and from Him we came. Our spirits were with Him before the creation of the earth, for the Father was then our dwelling place.
The Psalmist said, "Thou turnest man to destruction (this realm of sin and death, of flesh and blood); and sayest, Return, ye children of men" (Ps. 90:3). The Lord turned man to destruction, which is to say, He sent us down to this earth realm of dust, sin and death, and then said to us, "Return! ye children of men." What a revelation that is!
In Gen. 1:26 we see the wonderful advent of man created "in the image and likeness of God," a SPIRITUAL MAN brought forth out of the very SPIRIT-SUBSTANCE of God Almighty and bearing His own divine nature, character and attributes. God first called man ADAM -- meaning RED, or SHOWING BLOOD IN THE FACE--when He created him a SPIRITUAL MAN. In Gen. 2:7 we find that in God's inscrutable wisdom the dark hour came when the creature was MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY (Rom. 8:20). Of this man who had been created as pure spirit in the image of God, it is now stated, "And the Lord God FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit, the spiritual man) of life; and man (then) BECAME a LIVING SOUL." The man who had been spirit now "became" a LIVING SOUL--manifest in the earth realm. Adam--red, showing blood in the face--BECAME a living soul, revealing that there was a PROCESS of descending from pure spirit existence, into a lesser realm.
Man was lowered from the realm of spirit, into the realm of the soul; then in disobedience, drawn away of his own lust and enticed down into the flesh, so that at last God said of man, "He is BECOME FLESH" (Gen. 6:3)He was lowered from spirit to soul, and fell from soul to "flesh."
Ps. 8:4-5 wherein we read, "What is man, that Thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that Thou visitest him? For thou hast MADE HIM a little LOWER than the angels..." The word "angels" in this passage is from the Hebrew ELOHIM and is always the Old Testament word for GOD. "In the beginning GOD (Elohim) created..." (Gen. 1:1). The phrase "made a little lower than the angels" would more literally be translated from the Hebrew text, "Thou hast caused him (man) to LACK FROM ELOHIM."
"For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Yes--the Father in heaven FOREKNEW YOU, my beloved brother, my precious sister in Christ. And that can mean nothing else but that He KNEW YOU BEFORE and at that time when He KNEW YOU BEFORE He predestinated you to enter this earth-experience and thereby be conformed to the image of first, unique, and preeminent Son, Jesus Christ.
Blessings, James.
Quote"For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Yes--the Father in heaven FOREKNEW YOU, my beloved brother, my precious sister in Christ. And that can mean nothing else but that He KNEW YOU BEFORE and at that time when He KNEW YOU BEFORE He predestinated you to enter this earth-experience and thereby be conformed to the image of first, unique, and preeminent Son, Jesus Christ.
THIS is just beautiful.
thanks Jabcat.......... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on July 23, 2011, 04:13:54 AM
Quote"For whom He did FOREKNOW, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). Yes--the Father in heaven FOREKNEW YOU, my beloved brother, my precious sister in Christ. And that can mean nothing else but that He KNEW YOU BEFORE and at that time when He KNEW YOU BEFORE He predestinated you to enter this earth-experience and thereby be conformed to the image of first, unique, and preeminent Son, Jesus Christ.
THIS is just beautiful.
It is.
Quote from: sheila on July 23, 2011, 04:29:37 AM
thanks Jabcat.......... :HeartThrob:
You're welcome, thank
you. It's something I do believe, but as I said earlier in the thread, I've been surprised before. :coffee:
John 12:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
I see the need to post no more... we must die!
Paul
First and second Adam,
are the two men in the bed!
I die daily, for it is not I that live but Christ.
At the third feast, Tabernacles, we shall not come empty-handed!
Quote from: Molly on July 21, 2011, 02:13:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 21, 2011, 12:25:17 PM
How much can status lowered until it become an insult to the original.
Let's assume God has an an IQ of 1000. Would it be fair to compare with an IQ of 999? 800? 100? 50?
Can a sinless God be compared with someone that sinned once in a life time? 100x? 1000x Several times daily?
If there is an exact image of God and all kind of negative human qualities are added it no longer is an image.
Once again there is no agreement on the translation of image.
Shadow or outline are consired better translations.
QuoteThe Man is an image of God.
Man is the shaow of God.
QuoteAdam is also called the image of the one to come,
Adam is the shadow of things to come.
Quotemeaning Jesus.
Who proves anybody before Him were a very sad excuse of an image.
I'm not sure what your point is. Is it your intent to say that man is nothing at all like elohiym?
Almost nothing.
QuoteOr is a poor resemblance?
Nearly the opposite.
QuoteOr God didn't mean what he said in Gen 1:26 or what?
I'm sure He did mean what He said. I'm just not sure He said: "like Me"
QuoteRemember how Jesus loved his disciples, even though they kept misunderstanding, and getting things wrong, and doing the wrong thing? Do you think their 'IQ' mattered to him?
That's not my point. It was just an example to show that mankind is nothing like God at all. It's like saying man is teh image of a whakle because they both can swim.
QuoteHe loves us because of who we are, not because of what we are, just like we love our own children--unconditionally.
Many people love their dog. That doesn't make their dog human.
QuoteAnd, how could you possibly know what we will be when we receive our inheritance?
Say you are totally broke for 70 years of your life. Then you win 40 million in a lottery. Were you a millionaire whole your life?
Quote from: thinktank on July 21, 2011, 07:50:14 PM
I think what wings is saying is that if man was created in Gods image then, he should be perfect and therefore not fail the test of the tree, or to not have high and lofty thoughts of becoming like God.
That's niot what I intended to say. But it's a very good example.
God can not sin. But His image can't stop sinning.... :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 23, 2011, 04:23:49 PM
Were you a millionaire whole your life?
Potentially, you just didn't know it, yet!
Awake, Oh sleeper! Be risen from the dead. Christ's light shines upon thee.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 23, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
But His image can't stop sinning.... :dontknow:
Repent! Turn your eyes back (see His image).
As Peter and Jesus on the troubled waters.
The moment He took His eyes from Jesus — He sank.
Peter beheld Jesus on the water.
Beautiful.
WW
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CORRUPTIBLE OUTER IMAGE..YOU SEE SIN....THERE IS AN INNER MAN BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY
THE OUTER MAN WILL PERISH[BODY OF DEATH] THE INNER MAN WILL BE DELIVERED FROM HIS BODY OF DEATH
AND SET FREE INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD
WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE BY APPEARANCE OF THE EYES
iSAAIH 28;21 tHE lORD WILL RISE UP AS HE DID AT MOUNT PERAZIM
HE WILL ROUSE HIMSELF AS HE DID AT THE VALLEY OF GIBEON-
TO DO HIS WORK,HIS STRANGE WORK
AND PERFORM HIS TASK,HIS ALIEN TASK
Quote from: wwAlmost nothing.
I think that's a bit harsh lol. Don't you see people as more generally a mix of good and evil? They can be incredibly heroic and good and selfless, as well as the opposite. That is the human condition in our fallen state--made subject to vanity,--
mataiotēs-- transientness, moral depravity--that we should learn to overcome this instead of submitting to it.
But, you have to be motivated, and consider it a worthwhile thing to do. A love of Christ motivates and changes people.
Don't forget, elohiym know good and evil, and are not above doing evil, which is why YHWH is dressing them down in Psa 82.
1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
All the foundations of the earth are out of course.
Fragmented!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 23, 2011, 05:43:23 PM
Fragmented!
What do you mean?
We know the tree of life in the garden represents Christ and his righteousness.
But, I was actually wondering from something Sheila said earlier, if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might represent [fallen] Man.
Romans 9;22
What if.........God..choosing to show His wrath and make His power known..........
BORE WITH GREAT PATEINCE THE OBJECTS OF HIS WRATH[SIN IN FLESH OF HIS IMAGE]- PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION
WHAT IF HE DID THIS TO MAKE THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY KNOWN..TO THE OBJECTS OF HIS MERCY[CREATURE SUBJECTED TO VANITY]
WHOM HE PREPARED IN ADVANCE FOR GLORY EVEN US
WW YOU ARE OF THE TRIBE OF THOMAS.....HE THAT MUST TOUCH AND SEE WITH HIS OWN EYES.....you twin!!
jOHN 11;16 'LET US ALSO GO,THAT WE MAY DIE WITH HIM'
LOOK! THOMAS! IT IS THE SPITTING IMAGE OF GOD!
MARK 8;23 HE TOOK THE BLIND MAN BY THE HAND AND LED HIM OUTSIDE THE VILLAGE
WHEN HE HAD SPIT ON THE MAN'S EYES AND PUT HIS HANDS ON HIM,'JESUS SAID' DO YOU SEE ANYTHING?"
HE LOOKED UP AND SAID,'I SEE PEOPLE THEY LOOK LIKE TREES WALKING AROUND' ONCE MORE,JESUS PUT HIS
HANDS ON THE MAN'S EYES. THEN HIS EYES WERE OPENED,HIS SIGHT WAS RESTORED,AND HE SAW EVERYTHING CLEARLY.
JESUS SENT HIM HOME SAYING,DON'T GO INTO THE VILLAGE
Quote from: Molly on July 23, 2011, 05:48:17 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 23, 2011, 05:43:23 PM
Fragmented!
What do you mean?
We know the tree of life in the garden represents Christ and his righteousness.
But, I was actually wondering from something Sheila said earlier, if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might represent [fallen] Man.
A common misconception among christians.
Christ is life, there is no death in Him .Therefore it is impossible to eat the tree of life and yet remain in death. God says in Genesis to guard the tree of life lest they live forever.
Abraham and the prophets met God face to face and yet they died. If Christ was the tree of life then Abraham would simply take and eat of it and live forever.
However Christ is the root of the tree of life, His power giving birth to this amazing tree.
:2c:
YES, THE TOKOGAE DOES REPRESENT THE CORRUPT IMAGE......AND THAT WHICH IS GOOD AND EVIL IS DONE AWAY WITH WHEN WHAT
IS PERFECT COMES[TOL] AND KNOW THAT THERE IS NO DEATH IN THE TOL...BUT HE LAYS IT DOWN WILLINGLY..IN ORDER TO TAKE
IT BACK UP AGAIN[NO MAN[OF SIN] TAKES IT FROM HIM][FATHER DID THIS,TOO]
PERFECTION COMES THROUGH OBEDIANCE THROUGH SUFFERING
HEBREWS 5;9 ALTHOUGH HE WAS A SON,HE LEARNED OBEDIANCE FROM WHAT HE SUFFERED
AND ONCE HE WAS MADE PERFECT HE BECAME THE SOURCE FOR ETERNAL SALVATION FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM
AND WAS DESIGNATED BY GOD TO BE HIGH PREIST IN THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK
and man's physical body is a vessel of wrath in this way only....that it is an abomination to God that sin/evil should dwell in His HOLY TEMPLE...
the fruit of evil from the tree brings corruption. But He has said,no man ever hated His own flesh..but feeds aND CLOTHES IT...
jESUS SAID,DESTROY THIS TEMPLE AND i WILL RAISE IT ON THE THIRD DAY.....
.....AND THOSE WHO DESTROY THE TEMPLE OF GOD..GOD HIMSELF WILL DESTROY
THE MAN OF SIN IS AS GOOD AS A DEAD MAN.....BECAUSE HE TOUCHED US
wISDOM..THE CAPABLE WIFE hAS NO FEAR FOR THE MEMBERS OF HER HOUSEHOLD pR 31;18 FOR THEY ARE ALL DOUBLE GARMENTED
SCARLET WOOL AND CLEAN WHITE LINEN....WHEN IT SNOWS[COLD/DEATH] MAN AS SHEEP/SLAUGHTERED SKINNED AND THROWN ABOUT
fOR FATHER LOVES THE GATES OF ZION[SPIRIT] MORE THAN ALL THE TENTS OF JACOB[FLESHLY DWELLINGS]
WHITE LINEN...RIGHTEOUSNESS AND GRACE/SPOTLESS/SPIRIT TO SHINE IN THE KINGDOM OF HIS LOVE
Quote from: sheila on July 23, 2011, 05:05:27 PM
WW
WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CORRUPTIBLE OUTER IMAGE..YOU SEE SIN....
The animal outside. (animated by the animal soul)
QuoteTHERE IS AN INNER MAN BEING RENEWED DAY BY DAY
The inner spirit that I described as "something extra".
Renewed.... For some likely yes. For many not. For most veiled and heavily sedated...
QuoteTHE OUTER MAN WILL PERISH[BODY OF DEATH] THE INNER MAN WILL BE DELIVERED FROM HIS BODY OF DEATH
Sheila (all) that's not the point I'm arguing about. It's a Biblical view. My point is that UNTIL what you just wrote happens we are nothing like God.
Quote from: Molly on July 23, 2011, 05:34:46 PM
Quote from: wwAlmost nothing.
I think that's a bit harsh lol. Don't you see people as more generally a mix of good and evil?
I found a good verse about the image of God.
ACVLuke 2334 And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they
are doing exactly whay YOU would do :2c:
7But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
--2 Cor 4
Power in a vessel with the lit firmly screwed on.The vessel needs to be broken.
Quote from: Pierac on July 23, 2011, 07:46:07 AM
John 12:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
I see the need to post no more... we must die!
Paul
Hi Paul. Do you mean this spiritually? Or more so literally, as in "it is appointed unto man once to die", i.e., the natural death of this flesh that eventually through the course of this life comes to us all? Thanks, James.
If Jesus is the Savior of all mankind;
is that:
spirit?
soul?
body?
I think that's also a matter of opinion BS.
Was the old body of Jesus resurrected?
a] Yes Jesus walked around in His old body because the tomb was empty.
b] No. It was a new body.
c] It was His body as it was before He came to earth.
d] ....
My opinion; The Bible is a spiritual book that doesn't care much about the things that are seen.
Mankind is not the vessel but what's inside (spirit).
For me the body is the vessel. The soul is what animates the body.
We are being saved spirit, soul, and body, in that order--from the inside out.
And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.
--Rom 8:23
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 24, 2011, 09:39:24 AM
I think that's also a matter of opinion BS.
Was the old body of Jesus resurrected?
a] Yes Jesus walked around in His old body because the tomb was empty.
b] No. It was a new body.
c] It was His body as it was before He came to earth.
d] ....
My opinion; The Bible is a spiritual book that doesn't care much about the things that are seen.
Mankind is not the vessel but what's inside (spirit).
For me the body is the vessel. The soul is what animates the body.
His old body was vivified by the quickening Spirit.
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.--1Cor 15:45
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
Is a vivified body still the same?
Say someone lives in a tiny run down wooden shack.
It gets renovated (vivified) into a huge extremely luxerious mansion.
Is it still your old shack?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 24, 2011, 10:38:45 AM
Is a vivified body still the same?
Say someone lives in a tiny run down wooden shack.
It gets renovated (vivified) into a huge extremely luxerious mansion.
Is it still your old shack?
I would say, yes and no. :winkgrin:
Quote from: wwMy point is that UNTIL what you just wrote happens we are nothing like God.
Well, that's what we are debating here. And, I say, you might be right except for...
Adam...who was a pattern of the one to come.
Adam...who was a type of the one to come.
Adam...who was an image of the one to come.
Adam...who is the figure of him that was to come.
Adam...who is a picture of him that was to come.
Adam is a son of God, and we get more from our parents than just the color of our eyes.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.
I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
--Rev 22
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 23, 2011, 11:02:36 PM
If Jesus is the Savior of all mankind;
is that:
spirit?
soul?
body?
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I'm Not sure about the unbelievers or those who's name is not written in the lambs book of life.
The scriptures show that their spirit will be saved in the lake of fire
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
But not sure what happens to their soul and body.
An ongoing study
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2011, 03:21:36 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 24, 2011, 10:38:45 AM
Is a vivified body still the same?
Say someone lives in a tiny run down wooden shack.
It gets renovated (vivified) into a huge extremely luxerious mansion.
Is it still your old shack?
I would say, yes and no. :winkgrin:
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared(phanaroo-manifest, shown, made visible, been revealed) as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Behold, I make all things new! :o)
clothe us in garments[body] we will be clothed[even the prodigals] in a best robe impermeable to sin and corruption...
our filthy rags[dusty bodies of flesh and blood weak rended garments] shall be 'CHANGED"
the new bodies are made of Light////that is why we arecalled 'children of the light'.......if one of these beings came into a room of total darkness
the light comes from inside them...the features are just as a human[image of God] Also they can change form and appear just like a human[decrease
watts if you will]
Enoch describes the putting on of this garment....and He became like ONE OF GOD'S GLORIOUS ONES
this is the Glory God is going to bestow upon man in His image....after humbling him in a meager weak form........He deems His children needed to
expierence want/hardship/poverty/vanity in his youth Pr 29;21 If a man pampers his servant from youth,He will bring greif in the end.
when a youth you can not discern a servant from an heir,so yes, ww I can recognize your point..
WW , NOW REGARDING the destinction of the godly from the the godless. I give you this word....
Mal 3;18 and you WILL AGAIN SEE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED,BETWEEN THOSE WHO SERVE GOD
AND THOSE WHO DO NOT
when you see a drunken bum in the gutter,you need to acknowledge that he problably has no idea of the GLORY that awaits him
when Jesus healed the ten lepers..only one came back to praise God for it....He asked where the other nine were
those who are forgiven most..love most...those who suffered most rejoice most, those dwelling under stress appreciate peace most
those who suffered great want...appreciate supply greatly, those who are lonely appreciate companionship those who were condemned
appreciate mercy most, those who died appreciate LIFE MOST
the WHOLE CREATION GROANS FOR THE REVEALING OF THE SONS OF GOD....to see the very thing you speak of......IT IS COMING....
until it arrives...what can we do...but by the spirit of Christ put to death the deeds of the body[such as wrath,pride,greed,hate,lust]
if everyone should handle their own serpents and cast them in the fire...there would be a lot less firey serpents in our gathering togather.
If we be concerned with seeing to HIS SPIRITUAL HOUSE...He will certainly see to ours.....
Each member of the body,contributing according to the gift in them..for the building up of all..in love
at present all we have is a token of what our inheritance will be...WW. We can only display what He has given us
Love to you all
Some things are so new you can't kno em till they manifest ;o)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 23, 2011, 04:30:24 PM
Quote from: thinktank on July 21, 2011, 07:50:14 PM
I think what wings is saying is that if man was created in Gods image then, he should be perfect and therefore not fail the test of the tree, or to not have high and lofty thoughts of becoming like God.
That's niot what I intended to say. But it's a very good example.
God can not sin. But His image can't stop sinning.... :dontknow:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 24, 2011, 09:39:24 AM
I think that's also a matter of opinion BS.
Was the old body of Jesus resurrected?
a] Yes Jesus walked around in His old body because the tomb was empty.
b] No. It was a new body.
c] It was His body as it was before He came to earth.
d] ....
My opinion; The Bible is a spiritual book that doesn't care much about the things that are seen.
Mankind is not the vessel but what's inside (spirit).
For me the body is the vessel. The soul is what animates the body.
:thumbsup:
Well, as for me, Im led to just but this subject(for me anyway I hope) in with the two TABOO subjects.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: sheila on July 24, 2011, 08:21:44 PM
clothe us in garments[body] we will be clothed[even the prodigals] in a best robe impermeable to sin and corruption...
our filthy rags[dusty bodies of flesh and blood weak rended garments] shall be 'CHANGED"
the new bodies are made of Light////that is why we arecalled 'children of the light'.......if one of these beings came into a room of total darkness
the light comes from inside them...the features are just as a human[image of God] Also they can change form and appear just like a human[decrease
watts if you will]
Enoch describes the putting on of this garment....and He became like ONE OF GOD'S GLORIOUS ONES
this is the Glory God is going to bestow upon man in His image....after humbling him in a meager weak form........He deems His children needed to
expierence want/hardship/poverty/vanity in his youth Pr 29;21 If a man pampers his servant from youth,He will bring greif in the end.
when a youth you can not discern a servant from an heir,so yes, ww I can recognize your point..
WW , NOW REGARDING the destinction of the godly from the the godless. I give you this word....
Mal 3;18 and you WILL AGAIN SEE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE RIGHTEOUS AND THE WICKED,BETWEEN THOSE WHO SERVE GOD
AND THOSE WHO DO NOT
when you see a drunken bum in the gutter,you need to acknowledge that he problably has no idea of the GLORY that awaits him
when Jesus healed the ten lepers..only one came back to praise God for it....He asked where the other nine were
those who are forgiven most..love most...those who suffered most rejoice most, those dwelling under stress appreciate peace most
those who suffered great want...appreciate supply greatly, those who are lonely appreciate companionship those who were condemned
appreciate mercy most, those who died appreciate LIFE MOST
the WHOLE CREATION GROANS FOR THE REVEALING OF THE SONS OF GOD....to see the very thing you speak of......IT IS COMING....
until it arrives...what can we do...but by the spirit of Christ put to death the deeds of the body[such as wrath,pride,greed,hate,lust]
if everyone should handle their own serpents and cast them in the fire...there would be a lot less firey serpents in our gathering togather.
If we be concerned with seeing to HIS SPIRITUAL HOUSE...He will certainly see to ours.....
Each member of the body,contributing according to the gift in them..for the building up of all..in love
at present all we have is a token of what our inheritance will be...WW. We can only display what He has given us
Love to you all
Thank you for this GEM. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2011, 05:17:51 PM
Quote from: wwMy point is that UNTIL what you just wrote happens we are nothing like God.
Well, that's what we are debating here. And, I say, you might be right except for...
Adam...who was a pattern of the one to come.
Adam...who was a type of the one to come.
Adam...who was an image of the one to come.
Adam...who is the figure of him that was to come.
Adam...who is a picture of him that was to come.
Thanks for making my point Molly :hihat:
Who is the greatest Adam (aka pattern, image, type, picture, figure) or Jesus.
QuoteAdam is a son of God, and we get more from our parents than just the color of our eyes.
You got eyes like burning embers like your father? :laughing7:
You have forgotten the rock scripture already Molly. Christ was/is a rock in the old testament. Adams no rock, more like sand. That same sand structure is the structure that humanity is built upon, hence all in Adam die, but all in Christ shall be made alive.
Adam is only human strength - Christ is Godly strength that helps us to overcome the world and the devil. Be of good cheer I have overcome the world and give you power over all the power of the enemy.
They that rest upon the arm of men shall fail, but those who wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength and fly like an Eagle.
Quote from: thinktank on July 25, 2011, 12:54:12 AM
You have forgotten the rock scripture already Molly. Christ was/is a rock in the old testament. Adams no rock, more like sand. That same sand structure is the structure that humanity is built upon, hence all in Adam die, but all in Christ shall be made alive.
Adam is only human strength - Christ is Godly strength that helps us to overcome the world and the devil. Be of good cheer I have overcome the world and give you power over all the power of the enemy.
They that rest upon the arm of men shall fail, but those who wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength and fly like an Eagle.
I have not forgotten.
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.--Gal 3:16
Rom 4:16 Therefore,
the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
We see the promise is to the seed and is by faith. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. Why is that? Why is faith counted as righteousness?
Because we cannot have faith without Jesus--
the author and perfector of our faith and
the author of our salvation.
My argument and defense would be this: The seed was always present with Man, both inside and outside the man Adam from day one. Unlike Jesus, Adam does not have God's permission to die for his bride, but when he does, YHWH clothes him in the skin of beasts [the lamb?] and follows him outside the garden. Why does he do this, unless God has planted his seed inside the man?
the seed is the word of God. [Lk 8:11]
As we gaze on him, how else could we become more like him?
2Cor 3:18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
What is the veil? Is it not the carnal mind arising from
this body of corruption? But that veil can be removed such that deep can talk to deep, Christ to Christ..such that...
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. --Rom 8
Quote from: Molly on July 25, 2011, 02:54:00 AM
deep can talk to deep, Christ to Christ
The two witnesses!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 25, 2011, 06:06:06 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 25, 2011, 02:54:00 AM
deep can talk to deep, Christ to Christ
The two witnesses!
Behind the Veil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZtuEeMIq7Q
Magnificent.
I've never heard that song before today.
Thank you.
O Yes
All Father has to do is add oil to the seed...and it bears fruit unto heaven....His spirit/oil/annointing 'sanctifies'
sets 'apart' from sin/error/corruption
and in the last days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh Father will sanctify ALL in ADAM....He sent His son in the likeness of man for
this very purpose. The inner garment[ seamless/spirit seed] stained by the flesh[slaughtered lamb skin] shall be white as snow
ans what can we say of the seamless inner garment of the Christ...if not declaring the one-ness of it...ONE SPIRIT
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, WHY DO YOU PERSECUTE ME?"
"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
[acts 9]
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. [Prov 14:31]
And the King will say, 'I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!' [Mat 25:40]
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 23, 2011, 08:44:18 PM
Power in a vessel with the lit firmly screwed on.The vessel needs to be broken.
Very well put! :bigGrin:
Mark 14:3; And while He was in Bethany, [as a guest] in the house of Simon the leper, as He was reclining [at table], a woman came with an alabaster jar of ointment (perfume) of pure nard, very costly and precious; and she broke the jar and poured [the perfume] over His head.
963 Bêthania; of Ara. or.; "house of affliction"
Simon: one that hears; that obeys.
4937 suntribô; from 4862 and the same as 5147; to break in pieces, crush: Further reading indicates that this word "crush" means to pulverize; not just break to pieces.
indeed all the poor,, naked in Adam shall be clothed in Christ[I needed clothes and you did not clothe me] who was [what spirit] in the garden
and exposed the shame of the nakedness of Adam. [an evil spirit did this
Acts 19;16 then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and over-powered them all
He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding [an evil spirit did this]
It is a principle throughout the scriptures to cover the naked[Noah Gen9;23]
Hab 2;15 @WOE TO HIM THAT GIVES DRINK TO HIS NEIGHBORS,POURING IT FROM THE WINESKIN[TOKOGAE] TIL THEY ARE DRUNK
SO THAT HE CAN GAZE ON THEIR NAKED BODIES[an evil spirit did this]
YOU WILL BE FILLED WITH SHAME INSTEAD OF GLORY
NOW IT IS YOUR TURN...DRINK AND BE EXPOSED!!!!!
THE CUP FROM THE LORD'S RIGHT HAND IS COMING AROUND TO YOU
AND DISGRACE WILL COVER YOUR GLORY
THE VIOLENCE YOU HAVEV DONE TO LEBANON WILL OVERWHELM YOU,AND YOUR DESTRUCTION OF ANIMALS WILL TERRIFY YOU
FOR YOU HAVE SHED MAN'S BLOOD, YOU HAVE DESTROYED LANDS AND CITIES AND EVERYONE IN THEM
Hab 2 WRITE DOWN THE REVELATION AND MAKE IT PLAIN ON TABLETS SO THAT A HERALD MAY RUN WITH IT
FOR THE REVELATION AWAITS AN APPOINTED TIME; IT SPEAKS OF THE END
AND WILL NOT PROVE FALSE
See, he is puffed up,his desires are not upright-but the righteous will live by his faith. Indeed ,wine betrays him,he is arrogant
and never at rest.Because he is as greedy as the grave,and like death is never satisfied, he gathers to himself all the nations
and takes CAPTIVE ALL THE PEOPLE'S
TODAY THIS SCRIPTURE IS FULFILLED IN YOUR HEARING [LUKE 4;18;21]
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 25, 2011, 08:51:49 PM
Mark 14:3; And while He was in Bethany, [as a guest] in the house of Simon the leper, as He was reclining [at table], a woman came with an alabaster jar of ointment (perfume) of pure nard, very costly and precious; and she broke the jar and poured [the perfume] over His head.
963 Bêthania; of Ara. or.; "house of affliction"
Simon: one that hears; that obeys.
4937 suntribô; from 4862 and the same as 5147; to break in pieces, crush: Further reading indicates that this word "crush" means to pulverize; not just break to pieces.
"4937 suntribô; from 4862 and the same as 5147; to break in pieces, crush: Further reading indicates that this word "crush" means
to pulverize; not just break to pieces.
Im just curious where this "pulverized" is to be found> I looked in Strongs, Youngs, a Esword, and the Word and I have not found that meaning. And I do not find the word crush in the NT to compare to.
"indeed all the poor,, naked in Adam shall be clothed in Christ[I needed clothes and you did not clothe me] who was [what spirit] in the garden
and exposed the shame of the nakedness of Adam. [an evil spirit did this " Shelia
I am curious how did you come this interpretation? That and "evil spirit" did this.
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
--Mathew 21:44
"will be broken"
G4917
συνθλάω
sunthlaō
soon-thlah'-o
From G4862 and θλάω thlaō (to crush); to dash together, that is, shatter: - break.
"will be crushed"
G3039
λικμάω
likmaō
lik-mah'-o
From λικμός likmos, the equivalent. of λίκνον liknon (a winnowing fan or basket); to winnow, that is, (by analogy) to triturate: - grind to powder.
"she brake"
G4937
συντρίβω
suntribō
soon-tree'-bo
From G4862 and the base of G5147; to crush completely, that is, to shatter (literally or figuratively): - break (in pieces), broken to shivers (+ -hearted), bruise.
the box and poured it on his head.
Quote from: Molly on July 25, 2011, 11:04:30 PM
"will be crushed"
G3039
λικμάω
likmaō
lik-mah'-o
From λικμός likmos, the equivalent. of λίκνον liknon (a winnowing fan or basket); to winnow, that is, (by analogy) to triturate: - grind to powder.
winnowing is an agricultural method developed by ancient cultures for separating grain from chaff. It is also used to remove weevils or other pests from stored grain. Threshing, the separation of grain or seeds from the husks and straw, is the step in the chaff-removal process that comes before winnowing. "Winnowing the chaff" is a common expression.
...The winnowing-fan (λίκνον [líknon], also meaning a "cradle") featured in the rites accorded Dionysus and in the Eleusinian Mysteries: "it was a simple agricultural implement taken over and mysticised by the religion of Dionysus," Jane Ellen Harrison remarked.[1] Dionysus Liknites ("Dionysus of the winnowing fan") was wakened by the Dionysian women, in this instance called Thyiades, in a cave on Parnassus high above Delphi; the winnowing-fan links the god connected with the mystery religions to the agricultural cycle, but mortal Greek babies too were laid in a winnowing-fan.[2] In Callimachus' Hymn to Zeus, Adrasteia lays the infant Zeus in a golden líknon, her goat suckles him and he is given honey.
To me break and grind seem to support my view on "the image". If it's so great why does it need to be detroyed?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 25, 2011, 10:23:54 PM
"indeed all the poor,, naked in Adam shall be clothed in Christ[I needed clothes and you did not clothe me] who was [what spirit] in the garden
and exposed the shame of the nakedness of Adam. [an evil spirit did this " Shelia
I am curious how did you come this interpretation? That and "evil spirit" did this.
The knowledge of good and evil.....spirits?
well,It was certainly NOT the spirit of God[or 'word' of God...'do NOT eat of it']
that gave A&E strong drink[tokogae] God does NOT tempt with evil.[who told you you were naked? God clothed them]
Ester 7;4 For I and my people have been sold for destruction and slaughter and annhilation....if we had merely been sold as slaves,
I would have kept quiet,because no suchdistress would justify disturbing the King........WHO IS HE? WHERE IS THE MAN WHO HAS
DARED TO DO SUCH A THING? Ester said ,'THE ADVERSARY AND ENEMY IS THIS VILE HAMAN"......the King exclaimed,'WILL HE EVEN MOLEST THE QUEEN
WHILE SHE IS WITH ME IN THE HOUSE?!!"
Yepper!! WW....that is how 'sin' as we know it..entered the flesh of men
Strong drink is for the mature...those who are of the TOL can only discern and 'handle' it Pr 23;31 DO NOT GAZE AT WINE WHEN IT IS RED
WHEN IT SPARKLES IN THE CUP,WHEN IT GOES DOWN SMOOTHLY! IN THE END IT BITES LIKE A SNAKE AND POISONS LIKE A VIPER
YOUR EYES WILL SEE STRANGE THINGS,AND YOUR MIND IMAGINE CONFUSING THINGS[Babylon wine of fornication/majic spell]
there is another spirit..that both 'tempts' and accuses' before God...... you will know a tree by it's fruit
Matt 21;38 But when the tenants saw the son,'they siad to each other,'this is the heir, Come lets kill him and take his inheritance' So they took him and
threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore,when the owner of the vineyard comes,what will he do with those tenants?'
what about........CRUSHING THE HEAD OF THE SERPENT?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 25, 2011, 11:20:18 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 25, 2011, 10:23:54 PM
"indeed all the poor,, naked in Adam shall be clothed in Christ[I needed clothes and you did not clothe me] who was [what spirit] in the garden
and exposed the shame of the nakedness of Adam. [an evil spirit did this " Shelia
I am curious how did you come this interpretation? That and "evil spirit" did this.
The knowledge of good and evil.....spirits?
As how I have been led to understand man/adam/breathing creature was formed to eat of the tree. As a brother has said Adam was made spiritually weak.
" well,It was certainly NOT the spirit of God[or 'word' of God...'do NOT eat of it']" Shelia
And how did you come to that conclusion?
1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah troubled him.
I am in no way agreeing with your "evil spirits" idea. I just know that Jehovah can do what HE desires anyway He wants to.
O Yes...man's weakness and nakedness was a great temptation for an evil spirit.....it is this thing alone that caused them to forsake their proper dwelling places.
we are,what you call,jailbait
You will notice the evil spirit that went out..was seated to the 'left" of God.....Father does not let His left hand know what His right hand is doing
Quote from: sheila on July 25, 2011, 11:43:40 PM
what about........CRUSHING THE HEAD OF THE SERPENT?
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.--Rom 16:20
"crush" [Satan under your feet]
G4937
συντρίβω
suntribō
soon-tree'-bo
From G4862 and the base of G5147;
to crush completely, that is, to shatter (literally or figuratively): - break (in pieces), broken to shivers (+ -hearted), bruise.
Quote from: sheila on July 26, 2011, 12:02:50 AM
You will notice the evil spirit that went out..was seated to the 'left" of God.....Father does not let His left hand know what His right hand is doing
wow.
I was just going to question you about this.
What passage/verse is that?
Rev 12;7
AND THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN,Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,and the dragon and his angels fought back.But he was not strong enough
AND THEY LOST THEIR PLACE IN HEAVEN. The great dragon was hurled down-THAT ANCIENT SERPENT,called the devil,OR SATAN
WHO LEADS THE WHOLE WORLD ASTRAY......Enmity between the seed
NOTE THE LOUD VOICE IN HEAVEN CALLING US ON EARTH BROTHERS...v 10-12 Note how ticked off he is
wonder what this war was over? their position was lost in the kingdom of heaven as lying spirits,temptors,deceivers and accusors
2 Chr 18;21 and 1 Kings 22;22...all the host were standing by on his right and left...having trouble finding 'left' specifically' but I KNOW I READ IT IN SOME
TRANSLATION Hate it when that happens!
Jesus had prayed the Father and instructed us to pray[lead us NOT INTO TEMPTATION} If a son ask for a fish,do you hand him a serpent?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 26, 2011, 12:17:56 AM
Quote from: sheila on July 26, 2011, 12:02:50 AM
You will notice the evil spirit that went out..was seated to the 'left" of God.....Father does not let His left hand know what His right hand is doing
wow.
I was just going to question you about this.
What passage/verse is that?
Yeah me too. Also I cannot find any mention of a "evil spirit" until Judges 9:23
Quote from: sheila on July 26, 2011, 12:35:39 AM
Rev 12;7
AND THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN,Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,and the dragon and his angels fought back.But he was not strong enough
AND THEY LOST THEIR PLACE IN HEAVEN. The great dragon was hurled down-THAT ANCIENT SERPENT,called the devil,OR SATAN
WHO LEADS THE WHOLE WORLD ASTRAY......Enmity between the seed
NOTE THE LOUD VOICE IN HEAVEN CALLING US ON EARTH BROTHERS...v 10-12 Note how ticked off he is
wonder what this war was over? their position was lost in the kingdom of heaven as lying spirits,temptors,deceivers and accusors
2 Chr 18;21 and 1 Kings 22;22...all the host were standing by on his right and left...having trouble finding 'left' specifically' but I KNOW I READ IT IN SOME
TRANSLATION Hate it when that happens!
Jesus had prayed the Father and instructed us to pray[lead us NOT INTO TEMPTATION} If a son ask for a fish,do you hand him a serpent?
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
--Mat 25
Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.
--2Chron 18:18
Quote from: sheila on July 26, 2011, 12:35:39 AM
Rev 12;7
AND THERE WAS WAR IN HEAVEN,Michael and his angels fought against the dragon,and the dragon and his angels fought back.But he was not strong enough
AND THEY LOST THEIR PLACE IN HEAVEN. The great dragon was hurled down-THAT ANCIENT SERPENT,called the devil,OR SATAN
WHO LEADS THE WHOLE WORLD ASTRAY......Enmity between the seed
NOTE THE LOUD VOICE IN HEAVEN CALLING US ON EARTH BROTHERS...v 10-12 Note how ticked off he is
wonder what this war was over? their position was lost in the kingdom of heaven as lying spirits,temptors,deceivers and accusors
2 Chr 18;21 and 1 Kings 22;22...all the host were standing by on his right and left...having trouble finding 'left' specifically' but I KNOW I READ IT IN SOME
TRANSLATION Hate it when that happens!
Jesus had prayed the Father and instructed us to pray[lead us NOT INTO TEMPTATION} If a son ask for a fish,do you hand him a serpent?
I understand.
On the left is judgment.
Quote from: Molly on July 25, 2011, 11:04:30 PM
He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."
--Mathew 21:44
"will be broken"
G4917
συνθλάω
sunthlaō
soon-thlah'-o
From G4862 and θλάω thlaō (to crush); to dash together, that is, shatter: - break.
"will be crushed"
G3039
λικμάω
likmaō
lik-mah'-o
From λικμός likmos, the equivalent. of λίκνον liknon (a winnowing fan or basket); to winnow, that is, (by analogy) to triturate: - grind to powder.
Thanks!
I know I've read it.
Let me say that I get totally mystified as to how a post gets "hijacked."
This one started out on Lowered and somewhere around the word "brake" if fell apart(lol) :laughing7:
As I have stated I have read Eby and others for 30 some years also on my front license plate is Psalm 90:3. I believe in all the
"RE's" in the Bible, restore, rebuild, reconcile and the way its taught that we will return to the spirit where we, as is said were lowered from, goes totally against I Cor. 15:45 that man became a living soul. I will always take the Bible over a mans word.
But it reads in John 1:3-8 "If any one may not be born from above" Joh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Now this person that is "born again" "born from above" "born of the Spirit" this person now walking in the Spirit meets the calamities of the world that he is lowered into, and needs to walk, not the ways of the world, but in the Spirit, this person will return to the fullness of God who is Spirit. But that man of I Cor.15:45 became a living/breathing soul and was not from spirit.
I can understand that maybe. Thank you Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 28, 2011, 08:55:11 PM
Let me say that I get totally mystified as to how a post gets "hijacked."
This one started out on Lowered and somewhere around the word "brake" if fell apart(lol) :laughing7:
I think you shouldn't complain. I've seen threads going off-topic at the 1st reply :winkgrin:
Plus it's you to blame. You got an answer and asked for proof. That's like asking to go off-topic. You should know that after a few thousand posts :icon_jokercolor:
Seriously now; I think the thread is still on-topic.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 28, 2011, 10:09:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 28, 2011, 08:55:11 PM
Let me say that I get totally mystified as to how a post gets "hijacked."
This one started out on Lowered and somewhere around the word "brake" if fell apart(lol) :laughing7:
I think you shouldn't complain. I've seen threads going off-topic at the 1st reply :winkgrin:
Plus it's you to blame. You got an answer and asked for proof. That's like asking to go off-topic. You should know that after a few thousand posts :icon_jokercolor:
Seriously now; I think the thread is still on-topic.
Okay my friend Ill hang in there :laughing7:
Quote from: Micahoh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Just reminding you,
Adam wasn't born of flesh.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2
...Adam, a son of God.--Luke 3
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: Micahoh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Just reminding you,
Adam wasn't born of flesh.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2
...Adam, a son of God.
--Luke 3
So who was Jesus talking about?
Question: was Eve born of flesh? We seem to have 4 types of birth.
Adam from dust.
Eve from a rib.
Rest of humanity from a womb.
Jesus.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 08:59:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: Micahoh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Just reminding you,
Adam wasn't born of flesh.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2
...Adam, a son of God.
--Luke 3
So who was Jesus talking about?
The lowered ones.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:15:57 AM
Question: was Eve born of flesh? We seem to have 4 types of birth.
Adam from dust.
Eve from a rib.
Rest of humanity from a womb.
Jesus.
Adam from the breath [Spirit] of God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 08:59:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: Micahoh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Just reminding you,
Adam wasn't born of flesh.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2
...Adam, a son of God.
--Luke 3
So who was Jesus talking about?
It contradicts with my own understanding but I will give it to you for consideration.
Adam was some sort of perfected body like Jesus.
After they got kicked out of Eden God gave them animal skins as a covering.
Did God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:17:41 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:15:57 AM
Question: was Eve born of flesh? We seem to have 4 types of birth.
Adam from dust.
Eve from a rib.
Rest of humanity from a womb.
Jesus.
Adam from the breath [Spirit] of God.
No.
Adam was
made of dust and was made alive by that breath. Two different events imo.
If not Adam would be wind.
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:21:36 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:17:41 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:15:57 AM
Question: was Eve born of flesh? We seem to have 4 types of birth.
Adam from dust.
Eve from a rib.
Rest of humanity from a womb.
Jesus.
Adam from the breath [Spirit] of God.
No.
Adam was made of dust and was made alive by that breath. Two different events imo.
If not Adam would be wind.
I thought you were asking about Adam being born/created, not about making mudpies.
The Bible teaches about a mudpie maker called Potter. So I ask about mudpies.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:30:33 AM
The Bible teaches about a mudpie maker called Potter. So I ask about mudpies.
The pot is made to hold something. For Adam it was the breath of God.
Have you ever thought about how other religions worship the breath?
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:35:24 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:30:33 AM
The Bible teaches about a mudpie maker called Potter. So I ask about mudpies.
The pot is made to hold something. For Adam it was the breath of God.
That's something I'm
not disagreeing with.
But the breath is passed on from generation to generation. Life is in the blood. That life/blood gets transfered in the womb.
If not it would mean humans/animals are able to create life. I think they can only pass it on.
QuoteHave you ever thought about how other religions worship the breath?
I've trouble enough with Christianity. So I'll just focus on that :laughing7:
I'm just saying Adam was not born of flesh. He was born of Spirit.
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:16:30 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 08:59:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: Micahoh 3:6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Just reminding you,
Adam wasn't born of flesh.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
--Gen 2
...Adam, a son of God.
--Luke 3
So who was Jesus talking about?
The lowered ones.
You are beginning to sound like a Hollywood horror movie "the lowered ones."!!!!!! :sigh:
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
It seems to me you give the adversary a lot more credit than is due. And by doing so you make the Lord God out as second rate weaker the adversary.
Man/flesh, dust+breath=flesh If as you say man was not born of flesh, the the Bible is in error. ICor.15:45
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Let's for now ignore who caused it.
God gave them animal skins. Agreed?
Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:53:34 AM
I'm just saying Adam was not born of flesh. He was born of Spirit.
mankind/adam was not born 1Ti 2:13 for
Adam was first formed, then Eve,
That which was formed IS flesh. You have mistaken the "breath of life" for SPIRIT/GOD
and the blood gets it's breath from the power of the prince of the air/and the breath of life from God......anything strangled you are not to eat...
basically 1st Adam's breath of life was strangled/choked on the fruit of the tokogae....that is why Jesus said 'you have no life in yourselves"
Basically He did mouth to mouth recessitation to bring forth spiritual life in us.....
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
It seems to me you give the adversary a lot more credit than is due. And by doing so you make the Lord God out as second rate weaker the adversary.
Man/flesh, dust+breath=flesh If as you say man was not born of flesh, the the Bible is in error. ICor.15:45
I agree with that Micah.
The way I understand Molly she agrees with that too with the exception of Adam.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Let's for now ignore who caused it.
God gave them animal skins. Agreed?
Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?
"God gave them animal skins." I do not agree.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife
coats of skin, and doth clothe them. Nothing about animal skins.
"Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?" No.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
It seems to me you give the adversary a lot more credit than is due. And by doing so you make the Lord God out as second rate weaker the adversary.
Man/flesh, dust+breath=flesh If as you say man was not born of flesh, the the Bible is in error. ICor.15:45
I agree with that Micah.
The way I understand Molly she agrees with that too with the exception of Adam.
Yes I know and it seems to be so, that adam was not "born"[proceated] of flesh, adam is the first of all flesh and thats what adam reproduced, flesh. If as Molly says he was born of "spirit" isnt that what adam would bring forth spirit?
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
God said to Adam who told you were naked?
So Adam was already naked, but someone or something told him. I believe it was the knowledge gained from the tree of good and evil.
Quote from: sheila on July 29, 2011, 06:21:44 PM
and the blood gets it's breath from the power of the prince of the air/and the breath of life from God......anything strangled you are not to eat...
basically 1st Adam's breath of life was strangled/choked on the fruit of the tokogae....that is why Jesus said 'you have no life in yourselves"
Basically He did mouth to mouth recessitation to bring forth spiritual life in us.....
There you go.
THIS^^^
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
It seems to me you give the adversary a lot more credit than is due. And by doing so you make the Lord God out as second rate weaker the adversary.
Man/flesh, dust+breath=flesh If as you say man was not born of flesh, the the Bible is in error. ICor.15:45
I agree with that Micah.
The way I understand Molly she agrees with that too with the exception of Adam.
Yes, with the exception of Adam.
Quote from: thinktank on July 29, 2011, 06:47:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
God said to Adam who told you were naked?
So Adam was already naked, but someone or something told him. I believe it was the knowledge gained from the tree of good and evil.
Or it could mean that--just the way we are naked under our clothing, Adam lost something ['clothing'] that exposed his nakedness.
Romans 13:14
Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
To seek what Adam lost, we can always find in Christ.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Let's for now ignore who caused it.
God gave them animal skins. Agreed?
Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?
"God gave them animal skins." I do not agree.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. Nothing about animal skins.
"Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?" No.
God 'clothed' them with 'coats of skin'
The word for 'coat' means a covering, or a garment, shirt, or robe.
"skins"H5785
עור
‛ôr
ore
From H5783;
skin (as naked); by implication hide, leather: - hide, leather, skin.
In other words, God has covered them with the naked human body. What were they before he covered them if they are naked humans after he covers them?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 29, 2011, 07:10:12 PM
Romans 13:14
Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
To seek what Adam lost, we can always find in Christ.
THIS^^^
Amen.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
--Rev 3
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 29, 2011, 07:10:12 PM
Romans 13:14
Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
To seek what Adam lost, we can always find in Christ.
Seems like you choose the only one that uses your terminology.
Romans 13:14
(ASV) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
(CLV) but put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and be making no provision for the lusts of the flesh."
(KJV) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
(WNT) On the contrary, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for gratifying your earthly cravings.
Quote from: thinktank on July 29, 2011, 06:47:25 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
God said to Adam who told you were naked?
So Adam was already naked, but someone or something told him. I believe it was the knowledge gained from the tree of good and evil.
Absolutlly, so things were working out just as planned.
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 07:00:15 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 29, 2011, 06:21:44 PM
and the blood gets it's breath from the power of the prince of the air/and the breath of life from God......anything strangled you are not to eat...
basically 1st Adam's breath of life was strangled/choked on the fruit of the tokogae....that is why Jesus said 'you have no life in yourselves"
Basically He did mouth to mouth recessitation to bring forth spiritual life in us.....
There you go.
THIS^^^
Lev 17:11
for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood
BECAUSE THE LITTLE CHILDREN WERE PARTAKERS OF FLESH AND BLOOD,SO TOO he shared flesh and blood,so that by His death He might destroy
him who holds the power of death-that is the devil,and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
A spirit hath not flesh and blood....BUT THE WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH MOST CERTAINLY DOES!!!....when you speak..breath comes out
THE VERY BREATH OF GOD IS IN MAN!! that is why,when you test the spirits..they deny that jESUS Christ is the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH
these words are spirit and life........
"THE VERY BREATH OF GOD IS IN MAN!! " Shelia
I cannot except that. That very breath of life is as well found in Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which is breath of life, every green herb is for food:' and it is so.
I fear that religion especially christianity misinforms when it teaches that the "breath of life" of Gen.2:7 is the SPIRIT of God.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Let's for now ignore who caused it.
God gave them animal skins. Agreed?
Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?
"God gave them animal skins." I do not agree.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. Nothing about animal skins.
You are right. It doesn't read animal skin.
עור
‛ôr
BDB Definition:
1) skin, hide
1a) skin (of men)
1b) hide (of animals)
Quote"Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?" No.
So if they didn't get animal skin the only othet possibility is they got human skin.
Humans wearing human skin over their human skin? Sounds like a bunch of canibals.
Seems an odd interpretation :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:30:39 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:05:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
It seems to me you give the adversary a lot more credit than is due. And by doing so you make the Lord God out as second rate weaker the adversary.
Man/flesh, dust+breath=flesh If as you say man was not born of flesh, the the Bible is in error. ICor.15:45
I agree with that Micah.
The way I understand Molly she agrees with that too with the exception of Adam.
Yes I know and it seems to be so, that adam was not "born"[proceated] of flesh, adam is the first of all flesh and thats what adam reproduced, flesh. If as Molly says he was born of "spirit" isnt that what adam would bring forth spirit?
If Jesus would have had children during His earthly life would those children be spirits?
Again doubting but I leave open the possibility something changed when they got kicked out of Eden. Comparing the patterns of things Eden was the Holies or even the Holies of Holies of the Temple.
:2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 08:56:25 PM
"THE VERY BREATH OF GOD IS IN MAN!! " Shelia
I cannot except that. That very breath of life is as well found in Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which is breath of life, every green herb is for food:' and it is so.
I fear that religion especially christianity misinforms when it teaches that the "breath of life" of Gen.2:7 is the SPIRIT of God.
Compare:
G5594 and H5315
G4154 and H5397
What do you see? (using the greek LXX could be useful)
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD,AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD,AND THE WORD WAS GOD.HE WAS WITH GOD IN THE BEGINNING
THROUGH HIM ALL THINGS WERE MADE,WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE,IN HIM WAS LIFE,AND THAT LIFE 'WAS" THE LIGHT OF MEN
THE LIGHT SHINES IN THE DARKNESS<BUT THE DARKNESS HAS NOT UNDERSTOOD IT
There came a man who was sent from God,his name was John.He came as a wittness to testify concerning that light,so that through him
all men might beleive.He himself was not the light,he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world
He was in the world,and though the world was made through him,the world DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM........He came to that WHICH WAS HIS OWN
But his own did NOT receive him. Yet, to all who received him,to those who beleived in his name[word of God come in flesh],
HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD-children born NOT of natural descent.....nor of human decision or a husbands will...
BUT BORN OF GOD.....
THE WORD BECOME FLESH AND MADE HIS DWELLING A MONG US...WE HAVE SEEN HIS GLORY,THE GLORY OF THE ONE AND ONLY WHO
CAME FROM THE FATHER,FULL OF GRACE AND TRUTH.
the book of Adam and Eve describe the flesh that has an animal nature
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2009/06-15a.html
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_god_cover_Adam_and_Eve_with_animal_skins
(oof-topc but good: http://www.lookstein.org/articles/rebekah_eve.htm)
Quote from: wwEden was the Holies or even the Holies of Holies of the Temple
I would suggest where the trees were is the Holy of Holies.
..the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. --Gen 2
in the midst=the center
Center/Midst
Garden
Outside the Garden
Quote from: MicahIf as Molly says he was born of "spirit" isnt that what adam would bring forth spirit?
He didn't procreate until he was lowered into human [carnal] flesh--outside of the garden.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 08:56:25 PM
"THE VERY BREATH OF GOD IS IN MAN!! " Shelia
I cannot except that. That very breath of life is as well found in Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which is breath of life, every green herb is for food:' and it is so.
I fear that religion especially christianity misinforms when it teaches that the "breath of life" of Gen.2:7 is the SPIRIT of God.
This phrase ['the breath of life=n'shamah chay'] is only used once in the Old Testament, when God breathes into the nostrils of Adam in Gen 2:7.
The next time we see God breathing into man is when the resurrected Christ does it to his disciples and tells them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.--John 20:22
Amen.
and so also,the Kingdom of Heaven was found in the midst.....that which was found 'good' in Adam...is found perfect in the tree of life
can the word of God speak through an animal? an ass? Baalam's maybe? the good portion of the tokogae is the word of God come in flesh
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Let's for now ignore who caused it.
God gave them animal skins. Agreed?
Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?
"God gave them animal skins." I do not agree.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. Nothing about animal skins.
You are right. It doesn't read animal skin.
עור
‛ôr
BDB Definition:
1) skin, hide
1a) skin (of men)
1b) hide (of animals)
Quote"Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?" No.
So if they didn't get animal skin the only othet possibility is they got human skin.
Humans wearing human skin over their human skin? Sounds like a bunch of canibals.
Seems an odd interpretation :dontknow:
Who says they had skin in the first place? They were "IN THE GARDEN" . . .the garden of Eden is separate from Eden. God didn't make Adam out of the earth in the garden . . .God created Adam out of the dirt on the earth "and placed him" in the garden . . .Adam "couldn't" walk from the earth to the garden . . .the earth and the garden are two different realms . . .the earth is "this" realm, the garden is the "spriit" realm. God created Adam out of the "earth" (natural realm) and "placed" him in the garden (spiritual). Our minds have conjured up images that our bodies require skin . . .but that doesn't mean it's true. I think their bodies had perhaps skeletal qualities, and some form of outer covering to make up the body, something that God had to open in order to take a rib out . . .but the skin we have now? Not necessarily. The skin is a protective covering to keep us from disease and everyday wear . . .there's no need for a protective covering in the spirit realm.
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 10:01:14 PM
Quote from: wwEden was the Holies or even the Holies of Holies of the Temple
I would suggest where the trees were is the Holy of Holies.
..the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
--Gen 2
in the midst=the center
Center/Midst
Garden
Outside the Garden
Quote from: MicahIf as Molly says he was born of "spirit" isnt that what adam would bring forth spirit?
He didn't procreate until he was lowered into human [carnal] flesh--outside of the garden.
beings that we're stretching our "selves" out here so the spirit can reveal His nature and patterns . . .I'm gonna push the envelop here and say I do agree with WW's observation that the Garden could very well be depicting the Holy of Holies because of several componants. One, It's always in "threes". Outer court (body) inner court or holy place (soul) and holy of holies (spirit) and in Genesis, we have the earth (outer court) Eden (holy place) and the garden of Eden (holy of holies). There is ONE nameless river that flows "out" of the garden "into" Eden. But at the edge, it separates into FOUR rivers. The number "one" speaks of DIVINE (spiritual) SOVERIEGNTY. Four is the number for flesh, earth . . .it consists of four major elements, fire, wind, water and land. There are four major directions, north, south, east and west. There are four major seasons . . .
So when I see something moving from "one" into "four", it's a pattern showing movement from spiritual into natural . . .from the garden into the earth it divides into four heads and "then" you see the names.
But the thing is, when God separated Eve from within Adam and brought them together again, the pronouncment was that they "reproduce and fill the earth" I for one think that this was something they did as soon as the pronouncment was made. I don't think they waited until after they fell . . .I think Eve gave birth while in the garden only difference was, in the natural, the birthing would bring extreme pain whereas when they were in the garden, pain wasn't even a reality. So what evidence is there? This may get a little slippery for some, but . . .when we see patterns in Scripture, we see how trees and men are synonomus . . .I think the trees they hid in, in the garden when the affects of the fruit of knowledge hit them, I think it was their offspring . . .you will know them by their "fruit".
Quote from: sheila on July 29, 2011, 10:29:03 PM
and so also,the Kingdom of Heaven was found in the midst.....that which was found 'good' in Adam...is found perfect in the tree of life
can the word of God speak through an animal? an ass? Baalam's maybe? the good portion of the tokogae is the word of God come in flesh
Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them.
--Luke 17:23
...nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."--Luke 17:21
I see this as both individual and collective prophecy. The kingdom is within each one of us and in the midst of us collectively. WE ARE HIS GARDEN.
I think he was also speaking literally to those who were literally there . . ."he" was the kingdom that was in the midst of them . .again, you have the three dimensions coming into play here . . .the natural . .being that "he" literally was in the midst of "them" which is first dimension . .second is . .he is in the midst of us corporately as Molly added . . .and third dimension is the most personal . . ."in me" his kingdom is in the midst of me.
YOU ARE A GARDEN LOCKED UP,MY SISTER,MY BRIDE
A SEALED FOUNTAIN,A SPRING ENCLOSED....
I have come into my garden,my sister,my bride
Quote from: sheila on July 29, 2011, 11:50:04 PM
YOU ARE A GARDEN LOCKED UP,MY SISTER,MY BRIDE
A SEALED FOUNTAIN,A SPRING ENCLOSED....
I have come into my garden,my sister,my bride
:HeartThrob:
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Quote from: Nathan on July 29, 2011, 10:43:53 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Let's for now ignore who caused it.
God gave them animal skins. Agreed?
Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?
"God gave them animal skins." I do not agree.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. Nothing about animal skins.
You are right. It doesn't read animal skin.
עור
‛ôr
BDB Definition:
1) skin, hide
1a) skin (of men)
1b) hide (of animals)
Quote"Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?" No.
So if they didn't get animal skin the only othet possibility is they got human skin.
Humans wearing human skin over their human skin? Sounds like a bunch of canibals.
Seems an odd interpretation :dontknow:
Who says they had skin in the first place? They were "IN THE GARDEN" . . .the garden of Eden is separate from Eden. God didn't make Adam out of the earth in the garden . . .God created Adam out of the dirt on the earth "and placed him" in the garden . . .Adam "couldn't" walk from the earth to the garden . . .the earth and the garden are two different realms . . .the earth is "this" realm, the garden is the "spriit" realm. God created Adam out of the "earth" (natural realm) and "placed" him in the garden (spiritual). Our minds have conjured up images that our bodies require skin . . .but that doesn't mean it's true. I think their bodies had perhaps skeletal qualities, and some form of outer covering to make up the body, something that God had to open in order to take a rib out . . .but the skin we have now? Not necessarily. The skin is a protective covering to keep us from disease and everyday wear . . .there's no need for a protective covering in the spirit realm.
Nathan I believe it is important that we note that [The Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground] He didnt created him He formed him.
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 10:01:14 PM
Quote from: wwEden was the Holies or even the Holies of Holies of the Temple
I would suggest where the trees were is the Holy of Holies.
I thought about that too.
I also had a thought the tree of life is the candle stick.
Also:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/experiencing_tabernacle_4983.msg98042.html#msg98042Quote..the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
--Gen 2
in the midst=the center
Center/Midst
Garden
Outside the Garden
Quote from: MicahIf as Molly says he was born of "spirit" isnt that what adam would bring forth spirit?
He didn't procreate until he was lowered into human [carnal] flesh--outside of the garden.
Was his garment changed from linnen to wool (in a symbolical sense)?
Quote from: Nathan on July 29, 2011, 10:43:53 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: wwDid God put carnal flesh on a perfected body?
I think Satan caused it to happen, but that's just me.
The man had flesh before he ate from the tree, but he was not ashamed. Is that because there was nothing to be ashamed of? because his nakedness was covered/clothed--as we are talking about on the other thread.
Let's for now ignore who caused it.
God gave them animal skins. Agreed?
Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?
"God gave them animal skins." I do not agree.
Gen 3:21 And Jehovah God doth make to the man and to his wife coats of skin, and doth clothe them. Nothing about animal skins.
You are right. It doesn't read animal skin.
עור
‛ôr
BDB Definition:
1) skin, hide
1a) skin (of men)
1b) hide (of animals)
Quote"Do you think that event changed their bodies from "something" to what bodies are right now?" No.
So if they didn't get animal skin the only othet possibility is they got human skin.
Humans wearing human skin over their human skin? Sounds like a bunch of canibals.
Seems an odd interpretation :dontknow:
Who says they had skin in the first place?
I implied such a thing in a earlier message. It's not Micah's view (as I understand it) so I just avoided it a bit while chatting with Micah...
QuoteThey were "IN THE GARDEN" . . .the garden of Eden is separate from Eden. God didn't make Adam out of the earth in the garden . . .God created Adam out of the dirt on the earth "and placed him" in the garden . . .Adam "couldn't" walk from the earth to the garden . . .the earth and the garden are two different realms . . .the earth is "this" realm, the garden is the "spriit" realm. God created Adam out of the "earth" (natural realm) and "placed" him in the garden (spiritual). Our minds have conjured up images that our bodies require skin . . .but that doesn't mean it's true. I think their bodies had perhaps skeletal qualities, and some form of outer covering to make up the body, something that God had to open in order to take a rib out . . .but the skin we have now? Not necessarily. The skin is a protective covering to keep us from disease and everyday wear . . .there's no need for a protective covering in the spirit realm.
Not arguing with that but resurrected Jesus seem to had skin and bones. Ok it wasn't a requirement for His surviaval I guess but still He made soem effort to prove it was a solid body.
Just exactly is wrong with the skin we have today verses the coats of skins given mankind in Genesis?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 12:05:58 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 29, 2011, 10:01:14 PM
Quote from: wwEden was the Holies or even the Holies of Holies of the Temple
I would suggest where the trees were is the Holy of Holies.
I thought about that too.
I also had a thought the tree of life is the candle stick.
Also: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/experiencing_tabernacle_4983.msg98042.html#msg98042
Quote..the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
--Gen 2
in the midst=the center
Center/Midst
Garden
Outside the Garden
Quote from: MicahIf as Molly says he was born of "spirit" isnt that what adam would bring forth spirit?
He didn't procreate until he was lowered into human [carnal] flesh--outside of the garden.
Was his garment changed from linnen to wool (in a symbolical sense)?
Symbolically, yes, changed from linen to wool, that makes sense. The high priest [which Adam was] cannot wear linen in the outer court. He is not supposed to wear wool inside because he is not supposed to sweat--sweat implies work, and in Christ we are at rest, no work. And, the wool would be in the outer court where the sacrifice happens, the sweat of his brow to live, the lamb slain from the casting down of the kosmos.
Quote from: Nathan on July 29, 2011, 11:03:56 PM
beings that we're stretching our "selves" out here so the spirit can reveal His nature and patterns . . .I'm gonna push the envelop here and say I do agree with WW's observation that the Garden could very well be depicting the Holy of Holies because of several componants. One, It's always in "threes". Outer court (body) inner court or holy place (soul) and holy of holies (spirit) and in Genesis, we have the earth (outer court) Eden (holy place) and the garden of Eden (holy of holies).
There are alway 4... There is something outside the outer court too. The land of Nod???? was the outer court. Nothe teh whole planet.
:2c:
QuoteThere is ONE nameless river that flows "out" of the garden "into" Eden. But at the edge, it separates into FOUR rivers. The number "one" speaks of DIVINE (spiritual) SOVERIEGNTY. Four is the number for flesh, earth . . .it consists of four major elements, fire, wind, water and land. There are four major directions, north, south, east and west. There are four major seasons . . .
IIRC correctly one of those rivers feeds Gihon (sp?) spring with was the spring used for all water used in Temple. It directly flowed into the Holies of Holies and from there poured out in the Laver.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 12:15:04 AM
Just exactly is wrong with the skin we have today verses the coats of skins given mankind in Genesis?
In case you are asking me...
Surely God could just have given they coats to stay dry and warm in the winter. That would be simple.
But if I learned one thing in the time I spend on this forum it is that God always has at least one 'hidden agenda'.
So unless someone gives me
at least two explanations of those skins I'm not statisfied....
:bgdance:
Training wheels.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 12:26:18 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 12:15:04 AM
Just exactly is wrong with the skin we have today verses the coats of skins given mankind in Genesis?
In case you are asking me...
Surely God could just have given they coats to stay dry and warm in the winter. That would be simple.
But if I learned one thing in the time I spend on this forum it is that God always has at least one 'hidden agenda'.
So unless someone gives me at least two explanations of those skins I'm not statisfied....
:bgdance:
Luk 12:6 `Are not five sparrows sold for two assars? and one of them is not forgotten before God,
Luk 12:7 but even the hairs of your head have been all numbered; therefore fear ye not, than many sparrows ye are of more value.
Reeds
Isaaih 35;7 the burning sand will become a pool, the thirsty ground bubbling springs....
in the haunts where jackals once lay[they slaughter lambs]...grass and reeds and papyrus will grow[linen garment]
the hair of His head is white like wool.......men in weak flesh are as sheep skinned and thrown about...care to number Israel's sheep? or the hair of HIS head
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 12:40:56 AM
Reeds
Isaaih 35;7 the burning sand will become a pool, the thirsty ground bubbling springs....
in the haunts where jackals once lay[they slaughter lambs]...grass and reeds and papyrus will grow[linen garment]
And a highway will be there; its name will be, The Holy Way; the unclean and the sinner may not go over it, and those who go on it will not be turned out of the way by the foolish.
Isa 35:8
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 12:52:36 AM
the hair of His head is white like wool.......men in weak flesh are as sheep skinned and thrown about...care to number Israel's sheep? or the hair of HIS head
Indeed, we are being killed all day long because of you. We are thought of as sheep to be slaughtered.
--Psa 44:22
Me, and that's probably only me, got lost or waylayed at post #264 but I am sure it is all my misunderstanding. As far as I have knowledge of, we are all learning and our understanding Im sure has its blurs.The Christ Jesus was born, Jesus died on the cross shedding His blood, He did not die in my stead, He died FOR for the whole entire world, Jesus The Christ rose from the dead, and a partial part of adam/man/mankind believed and we are part of that hearing. Aint none of us got it right, things have been revealed, and some understand while others still wonder.
I do not believe man was "lowered from a "spirit" state," to be formed from the dust of the ground, I believe man was formed from the dust of the ground, and man became a breathing creature/ living creature/ a living soul.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 04:19:43 AM
I do not believe man was "lowered from a "spirit" state," to be formed from the dust of the ground, I believe man was formed from the dust of the ground, and man became a breathing creature/ living creature/ a living soul.
me too, but I could be wrong about that :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on July 30, 2011, 04:25:25 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 04:19:43 AM
I do not believe man was "lowered from a "spirit" state," to be formed from the dust of the ground, I believe man was formed from the dust of the ground, and man became a breathing creature/ living creature/ a living soul.
me too, but I could be wrong about that :o)
Yes I am on that parapet myself, I am, I hope not making enemys as I poke the proverbial hornests nest. It is not my intentions.
I am here standing with Bro. Paul and his offering of 1Cor.15:45. I state now that should Bro. Paul be in error here, then what else is there of Bro. Paul that we have accepted as a truth, is in our reality false?
Dude, I was just being cute, forgive me :o) I hope my brothers and sisters can understand our point of view and have reasonable discourse about such things. I think the word clearly teaches the creation/genesis of man in Adam and I am not ashamed of that.... hornets nests are just carnality manifesting. I am learning how not to get stung but its a slow process, because I am not as meek as I could me, nor as humble. The way I see it, the Logos is complete.... it is just not completely understood. God breathed His spirit into the clay that he formed and Adam BECAME, a living soul.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 30, 2011, 04:50:52 AM
Dude, I was just being cute, forgive me :o) I hope my brothers and sisters can understand our point of view and have reasonable discourse about such things. I think the word clearly teaches the creation/genesis of man in Adam and I am not ashamed of that.... hornets nests are just carnality manifesting. I am learning how not to get stung but its a slow process, because I am not as meek as I could me, nor as humble. The way I see it, the Logos is complete.... it is just not completely understood. God breathed His spirit into the clay that he formed and Adam BECAME, a living soul.
Yes and I agree. Man would like to accept and embrace that man is something other than what he is....clay,
along with the breath of the Creator man became a living creature. Man seems to always want to be better or higher up than he is. God, created us, God knows our use, there aint nothing thats been accomplished by man, that God did not want accomplished.
Until man is chosen..... Joh 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
To quote our beloved Nathan from another thread:
" . . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it . .. I've seen it posted on here more than once . . .your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh."
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 30, 2011, 05:27:58 AM
To quote our beloved Nathan from another thread:
" . . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it . .. I've seen it posted on here more than once . . .your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh."
+
As I have stated many times before, should that be true then Paul was out of your circle of information. I have a great desire to find refuse in your ".your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh." I like it , I embrace it, I have a great desire for it to be so, but what do I do with
1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, Is Paul in error? Just where does this "adam/man was first... a "spirit" then "and the man becometh a living creature." I will bear with you. God is spirit, on this we will agree. But what if "that Spirit" had the inclination to make the "first man/adam" a living soul and had to grow into that man of spirit? Yes God is spirit, and being spirit He can do just about all he wants to do.
Paul writes, should I believe him? I wonder. 1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written,
`The first man Adam became a living creature,' i am inclined to believe Paul over all the insinuations otherwise. I Love Jesus...He Is Lord.
have you prayed about it, yet?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 30, 2011, 05:59:44 AM
have you prayed about it, yet?
Yes I have prayed many years. I was solid and permanent with the teaching of Bro. Eby, but questions arose, I would like to believe his theory to be true, with all my heart. God is Spirit and all EVERYTHING is out of spirit,
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Iam clay, a man...adam...the Bible teaches that man was formed from the dust of the ground and the Lord God breathed into the nostriles of the formed dust and the dust became a living/creature/soul. Now I realize that God is spirit, the spirit is where all evloves from, who is to say that GOD did not begin "man/adam" from that formed dust of the ground and His breath, to make us all to understand that we are is Gen.2:7. Where do we read that man was spirit "first" and then clay?
Hi Micah
a spirit hath not flesh and blood.......the creature was subjected to vanity..not of it's own will[like the angels that forsook their proper dwelling places]
but by the will of He who subjected it[lowered it] into flesh and blood vessels[vanity/flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven]
....in order to set the creation free into the glorious freedom of the SONS OF GOD.. the spiritual heavenly realm.
and as far as our brother Paul goes..he himself told us that at present he was looking through the glass darkly....Paul being unaware of the revelation
has only to do with timing,no failing on Paul's part Father reveals things gradually...and the reveailing of the mysteries,and others are in our time and day
IT IS A NEW CREATION...A NEW CREATURE.....a mere woman/soul shall surround a man[spirit]
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 06:18:05 AM
Hi Micah
a spirit hath not flesh and blood.......the creature was subjected to vanity..not of it's own will[like the angels that forsook their proper dwelling places]
but by the will of He who subjected it[lowered it] into flesh and blood vessels[vanity/flesh and blood can not enter the kingdom of heaven]
....in order to set the creation free into the glorious freedom of the SONS OF GOD.. the spiritual heavenly realm.
and as far as our brother Paul goes..he himself told us that at present he was looking through the glass darkly....Paul being unaware of the revelation
has only to do with timing,no failing on Paul's part Father reveals things gradually...and the reveailing of the mysteries,and others are in our time and day
IT IS A NEW CREATION...A NEW CREATURE.....a mere woman/soul shall surround a man[spirit]
"[like the angels that forsook their proper dwelling places]" That is your thoughts from where?
I do not understand your responses Shelia. Your answers come, at least for me, as melodrama. Like you piece things together to make it sound, well heavenly. I love Jesus, Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Jesus is my savior.
because the man was created first[spirit] and then the woman[soul] I speak of the mystery of Christ and the church
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 06:38:05 AM
because the man was created first[spirit] and then the woman[soul] I speak of the mystery of Christ and the church
Alright you got me with that one, " and then the woman[soul]" just where is this that the woman is the soul or just soul. I have in times past pointed out the that man became a living soul, and that man does not GET or HAVE a soul, man IS a soul. Now continue your speak. Thank you
Your answers come, at least for me, like a symphony.
"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (II Cor. 11:2-3).
Eve in the garden of Eden is contrasted with two things: the bride of Christ and the mind.
Ray Prinzing has written:
"The 'spirit of man', leaving the eternal realms of HIS SPIRIT to become encased in a tabernacle of flesh became 'a living soul', literally A BREATHING ONE on this earth plane.
The MIND is the connecting link between the spirit within and the flesh realm without. 'They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded (that is, minding of the flesh) is death; but to be spiritually minded (minding of the Spirit) is life and peace' (Rom. 8:5-6).
As one living and breathing on this earth plane, we will either mind the flesh, or the Spirit. When we take the word 'soul' over into the Greek of the New Testament, we find it expressed in the word PSUCHE, which literally bespeaks of the mind. One is not always conscious of their inner spirit, nor are we always conscious of our flesh body - for we live in the realm of THE MIND, and it is active twenty-four hours of the day, whether we wake or sleep.
The soul, mind realm, bespeaks of the mental power to reason, of those mental forces that urge us into action, of the exercise of the will. If this is directed towards the things of the flesh, it means death - for all this flesh realm shall pass away and come to nothing. If our mind is directed towards the things of the Spirit, it means life and peace, for in Him alone are the eternal realities."
Adam is a type of Christ, an image of the one to come.
If Adam were of a purely carnal nature, he would have thrown Eve under the bus, and asked God for a new wife. It happens every day of the week.
He knew he would die; he was not deceived. Like Christ, he died for his bride willingly.
Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned.
--1 Tim 2:14
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 30, 2011, 06:49:14 AM
Your answers come, at least for me, like a symphony.
You sir are worth the chuckle. I sometimes understand you and at other times you are like Dr. Susse with out well just without.
"because the man was created first[spirit] and then the woman[soul]" and of course there is a place found in the Word?
"Because the man was created first[spirit] and then the woman[soul]" and of course there is scripture and verse for this?
Beloved Servant you amaze me with your protection of what you believe, anything that may cause a chink in how you believe, is an assullte on your belief. I do not assullt you,. I just question what I once believed myself, and have found gaps in the teaching. Let me ask you, do you believe that J. Preston Eby has all the answers, that his is the last word of interpetation and that anyone else who may have a thought is a heritic? I love and trust J. Preston Eby, but I have found that Eby is not the last word and that just maybe, just maybe Eby's got something wrong> What say you Beloved?
Now you have invoked my mentor, I love Ray Prinzing, his teachings have helped me,coming quite close the Saviour Himself.
""The 'spirit of man', leaving the eternal realms of HIS SPIRIT to become encased in a tabernacle of flesh became 'a living soul', literally A BREATHING ONE on this earth plane. " Now I love Ray Prinzing but where did this happen?
Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2011, 07:34:26 AM
Adam is a type of Christ, an image of the one to come.
If Adam were of a purely carnal nature, he would have thrown Eve under the bus, and asked God for a new wife. It happens every day of the week.
He knew he would die; he was not deceived. Like Christ, he died for his bride willingly.
Besides that, Adam was not deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and sinned.
--1 Tim 2:14
I dont know but Molly you seem to be a flasher, a flasher of scripture here and there.
"If Adam were of a purely carnal nature, he would have thrown Eve under the bus" Molly
Just what was adam if he was not purley of a carnal nature? I find sometimes the tales that are spinned are
very close to screen plays for a movie script.
God's "breathing upon" Adam was the Holy Spirit
What, in fact, was the "blowing upon", that we read in the New Testament? "Jesus blew upon them, and said to them: 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (John 20:22).
When renovating mankind -which had lost the grace it had received through God's blowing upon it- the Lord restored it again, by blowing upon the persons/countenances of the disciples, by saying what? 'Receive ye Holy Spirit' " (St. Basil the Great).
Whatever the "blowing upon" was in the New Testament, it was exactly the same as the one in the Old Testament: It was the Grace and the Energy of the Holy Spirit. Just as the apostles weren't earthen statues, but living and moving people, so was the person who was "blown upon" in the Old Testament. This Grace of the Holy Spirit was that which was lost through man's disobedience, and was restored to the Apostles by our Lord. The Lord did not give the Apostles a soul; they already had souls, just as Adam did. He gave them something else, which made their souls "living souls". Just as He did with Adam.
Let the dead bury their dead, Christ had said. (Matthew 8:22). These "dead" were people with souls and movement, but who did not have the Holy Spirit, which invigorates (2 Corinthians 3:6).
By the Holy Spirit, every soul becomes alive». This Grace of the Holy Spirit is given to a whole person, body and soul, and it hallows and vivifies him.
He (=God) blew upon his (=Adam's) person/countenance ; meaning that a certain degree of His (God's) Grace was deposited in man, so that the 'likeness' (=man) could acknowledge its 'likeness' (=God). (Vasileios the Great).
Let's not forget the words also that God spoke to Adam: "On the day that you eat of this (=the tree), you shall die". But Adam lived on, for many more years after that! His "death" therefore was obviously a spiritual one. Adam became a "dead soul", after losing the Holy Spirit that was given to him when God "blew upon" him the breath of life. Reversely, this "blowing" of the Holy Spirit was what had made him a living soul.
Tatianus writes:
"The one who was created in the image of God and was separated from that more powerful (Holy) Spirit, becomes a mortal." (Tatianus to Hellenes, 7)
Also according to Saint Irenaeus:
"Separation from God is death" (Saint Irenaeus, Remonstration E' XXVII)
and
"Therefore, they –whomsoever they may be- who do not have whatever saves and leads into life, shall be called 'flesh and blood', because they are the ones who do not have the Spirit of God in them. Such people are referred to by the Lord as 'dead', as He had stated: "Let the dead bury their own dead", because they do not have the Spirit which vivifies man." (Saint Irenaeus, Remonstration E' XI, 1)
That which makes man entirely different to all other animals, is that he –unlike the animals- has the ability to receive the energy of the Holy SpiritThat which gives man this ability, however, is not his biological superiority, or the superiority of his mind. This ability that Man has to receive –if he so wishes- the energy of the Holy Spirit, is not given to him by anything natural;it is only because man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27); it is because he is a persona. (Genesis 2:7).
[/u]
http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2011/04/gods-breathing-upon-adam-was-the-holy-spirit/
Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2011, 08:20:20 AM
God's "breathing upon" Adam was the Holy Spirit
What, in fact, was the "blowing upon", that we read in the New Testament? "Jesus blew upon them, and said to them: 'Receive the Holy Spirit'" (John 20:22).
When renovating mankind -which had lost the grace it had received through God's blowing upon it- the Lord restored it again, by blowing upon the persons/countenances of the disciples, by saying what? 'Receive ye Holy Spirit' " (St. Basil the Great).
Whatever the "blowing upon" was in the New Testament, it was exactly the same as the one in the Old Testament: It was the Grace and the Energy of the Holy Spirit. Just as the apostles weren't earthen statues, but living and moving people, so was the person who was "blown upon" in the Old Testament. This Grace of the Holy Spirit was that which was lost through man's disobedience, and was restored to the Apostles by our Lord. The Lord did not give the Apostles a soul; they already had souls, just as Adam did. He gave them something else, which made their souls "living souls". Just as He did with Adam.
Let the dead bury their dead, Christ had said. (Matthew 8:22). These "dead" were people with souls and movement, but who did not have the Holy Spirit, which invigorates (2 Corinthians 3:6).
By the Holy Spirit, every soul becomes alive». This Grace of the Holy Spirit is given to a whole person, body and soul, and it hallows and vivifies him.
He (=God) blew upon his (=Adam's) person/countenance ; meaning that a certain degree of His (God's) Grace was deposited in man, so that the 'likeness' (=man) could acknowledge its 'likeness' (=God). (Vasileios the Great).
Let's not forget the words also that God spoke to Adam: "On the day that you eat of this (=the tree), you shall die". But Adam lived on, for many more years after that! His "death" therefore was obviously a spiritual one. Adam became a "dead soul", after losing the Holy Spirit that was given to him when God "blew upon" him the breath of life. Reversely, this "blowing" of the Holy Spirit was what had made him a living soul.
Tatianus writes:
"The one who was created in the image of God and was separated from that more powerful (Holy) Spirit, becomes a mortal." (Tatianus to Hellenes, 7)
Also according to Saint Irenaeus:
"Separation from God is death" (Saint Irenaeus, Remonstration E' XXVII)
and
"Therefore, they –whomsoever they may be- who do not have whatever saves and leads into life, shall be called 'flesh and blood', because they are the ones who do not have the Spirit of God in them. Such people are referred to by the Lord as 'dead', as He had stated: "Let the dead bury their own dead", because they do not have the Spirit which vivifies man." (Saint Irenaeus, Remonstration E' XI, 1)
That which makes man entirely different to all other animals, is that he –unlike the animals- has the ability to receive the energy of the Holy Spirit. That which gives man this ability, however, is not his biological superiority, or the superiority of his mind. This ability that Man has to receive –if he so wishes- the energy of the Holy Spirit, is not given to him by anything natural; it is only because man was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27); it is because he is a persona. (Genesis 2:7).
http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2011/04/gods-breathing-upon-adam-was-the-holy-spirit/
Do you have thoughts? I mean do you have the ability to say just what YOU have a desire to say? I have found that 100% of religious and orthodox religion is a fabraction of man, and commentaries from the graduates of the seminaries, are talking but heads at best.
Quote from: MicahDo you have thoughts? I mean do you have the ability to say just what YOU have a desire to say? I have found that 100% of religious and orthodox religion is a fabraction of man, and commentaries from the graduates of the seminaries, are talking but heads at best.
I have said it to you every way I can think of. I thought you might have some respect for church fathers who arrived at the same conclusions, but I can see not.
I am telling you [some of] what the HS has shown me. It's all I can do. Man was created qualitatively different from the animals, from day one.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 30, 2011, 12:29:38 AMTraining wheels.
Watch out for tire tracks on your hands.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 05:44:30 AM
As I have stated many times before, should that be true then Paul was out of your circle of information.
It may be that many don't understand the information. Paul was a teacher. He said things most didn't understand. (not saying I am)
QuoteI have a great desire to find refuse in your ".your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh." I like it , I embrace it, I have a great desire for it to be so, but what do I do with
I think we agree the only way something can return to somewhere is if that something was at that place before. That's also a clear verse. Even if it
seems to contradict 1Co 15:45
Quote1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, Is Paul in error? Just where does this "adam/man was first... a "spirit" then "and the man becometh a living creature." I will bear with you. God is spirit, on this we will agree. But what if "that Spirit" had the inclination to make the "first man/adam" a living soul and had to grow into that man of spirit? Yes God is spirit, and being spirit He can do just about all he wants to do.
Paul writes, should I believe him? I wonder. 1Co 15:45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' i am inclined to believe Paul over all the insinuations otherwise. I Love Jesus...He Is Lord.
The Bible's main goal is God becoming all-in-all. Or perhaps it is all-in-all-again. If the spirit is that breath it could be considered as a fragment of God. If that's true the spirit never was a pre-exiting seperate man. So that man was never in heaven.
The only other option is that the spirit that returns was in heaven as a seperate 'person'. <---EDIT added the word "other"
Note that only the spirit returns. Not the body or the soul.
So, if I understand your questions correctly, your next question is how can Adam be teh first man if billions of them were in heaven before Gen 1:1
I think the answer to that isn't that hard. God created all sorts of things. Most of it was dead stuff. Like stars planets, rocks and sand. Then the Potter sat down and took lifeless sand and made clay figures that look like a whale, a bird, or a man. Just like human potters the Great Potter has a problem. When making stuff out of dead sand the result is a dead product. The result is a lifeles statue of a whale, bird or man.
God solved that by blowing life into those statues. The first human statue that got life blown into it was called Adam. Regardless from the fact if there are or are not billions of spirits in heaven at that point. Or even if Adam was the youngest of all those spirits; he was the first one put in a statue. A new form. The first fruit of statues so to speak. When Jesus arose from the dead He was called first fruits. He was the first one that got a perfected body. But that doesn't mean His spirit never was before. It was just put in a better designed statue.
BTW it could be 'we' completely misunderstand the word return. See this thread (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/both_saints_and_sinners_are_left_rapture..._9653.msg121911.html#msg121911)for a similar misunderstanding.
:dontknow:
Im afraid that I cannot see it that way, as you say of the "church fathers." Paul was a "church father" as you put it and he saw it quite different as you can read in 1Cor.15:45.
God is spirit. And Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Yet, if man was as spirit first, then of what use is 1Co 15:44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. ?
I just wonder.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 09:52:25 AM
The Bible's main goal is God becoming all-in-all. Or perhaps it is all-in-all-again. If the spirit is that breath it could be considered as a fragment of God. If that's true the spirit never was a pre-exiting seperate man. So that man was never in heaven.
The only option is that the spirit that returns was in heaven as a seperate 'person'.
Note that only the spirit returns. Not the body or the soul.
So, if I understand your questions correctly, your next question is how can Adam be teh first man if billions of them were in heaven before Gen 1:1
I think the answer to that isn't that hard. God created all sorts of things. Most of it was dead stuff. Like stars planets, rocks and sand. Then the Potter sat down and took lifeless sand and made clay figures that look like a whale, a bird, or a man. Just like human potters the Great Potter has a problem. When making stuff out of dead sand the result is a dead product. The result is a lifeles statue of a whale, bird or man.
God solved that by blowing life into those statues. The first human statue that got life blown into it was called Adam. Regardless from the fact if there are or are not billions of spirits in heaven at that point. Or even if Adam was the youngest of all those spirits; he was the first one put in a statue. A new form. The first fruit of statues so to speak. When Jesus arose from the dead He was called first fruits. He was the first one that got a perfected body. But that doesn't mean His spirit never was before. It was just put in a better designed statue.
Beautiful post. :dsunny:
Few things to ponder;
one, I've seen the spirit referred to as "he" and the soul as "she". I never was quite sure where this came from. This verse in the Hebrew seems to state otherwise? and·he [body] -is-returning the·earth
and·the·spirit she-is-returning [to God who gave it]
Then shall the dust return
to the earth as it was: and
the spirit shall return unto
God who gave it.
Another point; I've been one to believe we pre-existed, IN SOME SPIRIT FORM. Largely based on this verse and the word REturn. It just hit me though reading it this time. What if the spirit returns to God, not because we pre-existed, but because our spirit CAME FROM God in the first place - when He formed us. He breathed into us (meaning "a part of Him, His substance was injected into us")? Not that we as a separate entity already existed, but that we return not because of our existence, but because of His - and He "shared" it with us at creation? I don't know, just thinking and putting it out for thought.
Difference between the spirit[power] of life and the Holy Spirit[power] of the Father when we are resurrected or born again.
Quote from: jabcat on July 30, 2011, 10:52:11 AM
Few things to ponder;
one, I've seen the spirit referred to as "he" and the soul as "she". I never was quite sure where this came from. This verse in the Hebrew seems to state otherwise? and·he [body] -is-returning the·earth
and·the·spirit she-is-returning [to God who gave it]
Then shall the dust return
to the earth as it was: and
the spirit shall return unto
God who gave it.
Another point; I've been one to believe we pre-existed, IN SOME SPIRIT FORM. Largely based on this verse and the word REturn. It just hit me though reading it this time. What if the spirit returns to God, not because we pre-existed, but because our spirit CAME FROM God in the first place - when He formed us. He breathed into us (meaning "a part of Him, His substance was injected into us")? Not that we as a separate entity already existed, but that we return not because of our existence, but because of His - and He "shared" it with us at creation? I don't know, just thinking and putting it out for thought.
Believe you are getting close my friend. I can understand that because I have a problem with the "RE's myself. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on July 30, 2011, 10:52:11 AM
Another point; I've been one to believe we pre-existed, IN SOME SPIRIT FORM. Largely based on this verse and the word REturn. It just hit me though reading it this time. What if the spirit returns to God, not because we pre-existed, but because our spirit CAME FROM God in the first place - when He formed us. He breathed into us (meaning "a part of Him, His substance was injected into us")? Not that we as a separate entity already existed, but that we return not because of our existence, but because of His - and He "shared" it with us at creation? I don't know, just thinking and putting it out for thought.
That's what I meant when I wrote "fragment of God".
In that line of thinking our body is a fragment of earth (dust). Both return to the larger/previous body of things.
That said I don't believe it's the correct view.
The dust really returns to earth and become one with it again. But the part that returned to God doesn't because for example we see it gets judged and corrected. When God passes judgment He isn't talking to His left hand or any other fragment of His body.
If they truly are fragments of God they at best almost returned. The only real return is when they are not longer separate. Maybe the complete return is all-in-all. But that can't be it either because this whole stuff isn't about God teaching Himself a lesson.
Or first teaching those fragments and then absorbing them again; making the teaching useless.
Weighting all evidence for me the scales tip to pre-existence as autonomous entities.
But what if God used Himself (of course He did :) to truly create us at that moment, rather than take us from one place (pre-existence) to another (here) - from one "form" to another?
Whether we pre-existed, or rather "came into being" at that moment, we still would have come from God (either earlier, or at the moment of creation), so to Him would return. And either way (pre or not) couldn't we still have distinct identity now, i.e., not just totally be "a piece of God"? It does get rather confusing. I probably can't even really make it clear :sigh:
As all things come/originate from God at some point those pre-exitisting creatures where part of Him.
I wrote this before but got no response. Lowered can mean many things. Loss of status. Or falling down from some higher place. But it also can be about frequency. Card often uses speeded-up as synonym for vivified.
Lowed can also mean slowed down. So we have slowing down at creation and speeding up at our return. Get your physics book and look up what the real difference is between ice, water and steam.
It's exactly the same stuff but compared to steam the water and ice molecules move at a lower speed. They bounce around with a lower frequency. And.... at the right frequency there is a possibility to pass through walls (in theory)
Meaning fallen angels could also be slowed down angels. I think.... :dontknow:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 10:00:12 AM
Im afraid that I cannot see it that way, as you say of the "church fathers." Paul was a "church father" as you put it and he saw it quite different as you can read in 1Cor.15:45.
God is spirit. And Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Yet, if man was as spirit first, then of what use is 1Co 15:44 It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. ?
I just wonder.
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
sown and raised, sown and raised
What is this? It's a farming metaphor.
A seed is sown, a plant is raised from it.
The seed contains the DNA of the plant it came from such that it will produce a plant like the one it came from.
How then could a natural seed produce a spiritual body?
Ans. It isn't a natural seed. It's a spiritual seed.
What plant does the seed come from? God.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
What are we talking about here? The resurrection of Man from the dead.
It [the seed] is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
thy seed... is Christ.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEZwHfsHVjk
. ok Micah, I will try again
2 Cor 12 Paul's vision and his thorn
I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord....I KNOW a man in Christ..who was caught up to the third heaven.
Whether it was in the body or out of the body,I DO NOT KNOW,but GOD KNOWS....He HEARD INEXPRESSIBLE THINGS...
THINGS THAT MAN IS NOT PERMITTED TO TELL[flesh and blood did not reveal this,but the Father in heaven]
To keep me from becoming conceited BECAUSE OF THESE SURPASSINGLY GREAT REVELATIONS....there was given me
a thorn in my flesh....a messenger of satan to torment me.......three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me...
BUT HE SAID TO ME,'MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU, FOR MY POWER[spirit] IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS[flesh and blood]
THEREFORE I WILL BOAST ALL THE MORE GLADLY ABOUT MY WEAKNESSES,SO THAT CHRIST'S POWER[spirit] MAY REST ON ME
now, we know that no flesh shall boast[except of it's weakness] and I do nto want you to think that wein Adam are immodestly boasting when saying we existed
in Him before in spirit] for it[spirit seed] is sown in weakness[flesh and blood formed by God.]..and raised in power[to sit in heavenly places]
learning obediance through suffering makes perfect...and the weakness of the flesh perfects the power of the spirit.
So please understand,Micah...when we speak of the spirit seed sown in Adam..we are boasting of the spirit of God..not the clay vessel of Adam....
we,too,boast of the weakness of Adam's flesh. But what we have been speaking of is the spirit that is sown in Adam
Now, due to the above scriptures,I beleive Paul knew of this revelation..but due to it not being time to be revealed yet..was unlawful
for him to declare it..and instead He spoke of the weakness of the vessel of Adam...but the power of the spirit/grace given us....and not so much of
the freedom and glorious liberty of the sons of God..of which the whole creation has been groaning and seeking.
Now,so Paul would not become conceited because of the revelation of the sons of God..he was given a thorn[messenger of satan] in the flesh...
this is nothing more than sin's law in our flesh/the body of death we dwell in. weakness..til we are clothed from on high[glorious spiritual body]POWER
after examining the above words of Paul..I am convinced he knew,but was restrained from revealing at that time
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 07:37:56 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 30, 2011, 06:49:14 AM
Your answers come, at least for me, like a symphony.
You sir are worth the chuckle. I sometimes understand you and at other times you are like Dr. Susse with out well just without.
"because the man was created first[spirit] and then the woman[soul]" and of course there is a place found in the Word?
"Because the man was created first[spirit] and then the woman[soul]" and of course there is scripture and verse for this?
Beloved Servant you amaze me with your protection of what you believe, anything that may cause a chink in how you believe, is an assullte on your belief. I do not assullt you,. I just question what I once believed myself, and have found gaps in the teaching. Let me ask you, do you believe that J. Preston Eby has all the answers, that his is the last word of interpetation and that anyone else who may have a thought is a heritic? I love and trust J. Preston Eby, but I have found that Eby is not the last word and that just maybe, just maybe Eby's got something wrong> What say you Beloved?
Now you have invoked my mentor, I love Ray Prinzing, his teachings have helped me,coming quite close the Saviour Himself.
""The 'spirit of man', leaving the eternal realms of HIS SPIRIT to become encased in a tabernacle of flesh became 'a living soul', literally A BREATHING ONE on this earth plane. " Now I love Ray Prinzing but where did this happen?
"This" happened in the mind of God.
As we put on the Mind of Christ spiritual realities knit together.
As we put on the Mind of Christ spiritual realities baffle the imagination.
You have wrongly spelled Dr. Seuss who uses symbolism and anagrams, relying both on the appearance of the text and its sound, to carry a range of meanings that all serve to amplify the theme of the work. This is generally true of Green Eggs and Ham and many other Seuss works, but applied notably in The Lorax.
Hmmm, just like the Bible, I'd say.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 07:37:56 AM
""The 'spirit of man', leaving the eternal realms of HIS SPIRIT to become encased in a tabernacle of flesh became 'a living soul', literally A BREATHING ONE on this earth plane. " Now I love Ray Prinzing but where did this happen?
We are all part of the Body of Christ, Micah.
Slain before the foundation of the world.
When He was lowered, we were lowered.
When He was raised, we were raised.
If Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, was that on Earth in Palestine?
Quote from: BelovedServantSlain before the foundation of the world
We were chosen in Him before [pro] the casting down [katabole] of the world.
The lamb was slain from [apo] the casting down [katabole] of the world.
In other words, the way I read it, the casting down of the world is what caused the lamb to be slain. Satan was a murderer from the beginning.
All part of the plan.
God never had to change or accommodate.
let's clear up the misunderstanding..of [like the angels that forsook their proper dwelling places] that was a differntiation between God placeing in clay vessels
His spirit seed....and satan's angels..that forsook their dwellings to come to earth and have no flesh and blood but choose to take others flesh and
blood to do their evil desires and lusts. For a spirit hath no flesh and blood,lest God Himself put it into a vessel...as He did with His son from above...
and prepare such a body for him....thou hast prepared a body for me....and I go to prepare a place for you.
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 06:04:25 PM
and prepare such a body for him....thou hast prepared a body for me....and I go to prepare a place for you.
There goes that symphony again.
Now if we were chosen in Him before the casting down of the world,
and the lamb is slain at/from the casting down of the world,
who is the slain lamb?
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU DID IT TO ME.'
--Mat 25:40
WhiteWings and Jabcat, you two are making it possible to try and understand alot of what is supposed. As for me I thank you for the imput. :bigGrin:
Lets keep seeking.
Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2011, 07:02:15 PM
Now if we were chosen in Him before the casting down of the world,
and the lamb is slain at/from the casting down of the world,
who is the slain lamb?
And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU DID IT TO ME.'
--Mat 25:40
There goes that symphony again and now the trumpets clearly sound.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 30, 2011, 05:27:58 AM
To quote our beloved Nathan from another thread:
" . . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it . .. I've seen it posted on here more than once . . .your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh."
the fact that God sent it, is obvious enough. It does not logically follow as an absolute that "it" was sent as a pre-existent sentient being. The fact that we are chosen and elect "according to foreknowledge" indicates a reasonable possibility that we are foreknown because the consciousness of God transcends time. We are all to caught up in "before" and "after" in my opinion :o). Certainly tho, it is a error to imply thatconclusions such as the sentient preexistence of everyone as spirits could be conclusively taken from a verse like the one quoted. God breathed into the clay, spirit of life. The combination "created" something new. The new creation received a name, "Adam". This was a part of the plan from the beginning. If I was foreordained- i did not "necessarily" pre-exist as a conscious being. This of course is a discussion I hope, not dogma- so I am neither offended or in the slightest bit disturbed that someone else holds a different view. A lot of things are possible seen through a glass darkly- and due to our limitations in seeing eternal(time transcendant things) there is always a possibility that both views are true, and neither fully understood, like say, the predestination/ free will conflict. ;o)
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The first man is of the Earth, second Adam is a life giving spirit
Another thing I'd like to mention is that I do not believe the original human spirits lived in heaven. Hevean = the place where God and his angles dwell.
Man was created a little lower than the angels.
So I see that the original home for humanity before becoming a soul was upon the Earth.
God created man in His image upon the Earth.
I reason the original home for humankind was a spiritual garden of Eden.
Possibly the same garden as where the anointed cherub was placed in.
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
No idea as to the type of body that original humanity had, but I do sense that it would be more Earthly than heavenly.Maybe in a sense, for lack of better words an Earthly angelic man type being, that was a little lower than the heavenly angels.
By placing a human spirit within clay it would create a new creature , a living soul. A being that would be veiled and only have access to limited knowledge. I think maybe God wanted to test humankind a test of faith, to see if they could still believe in God when veiled in flesh and make correct decisions.
Maybe I got his whole thing wrong and have misunderstood certain scriptures. But I am looking as to the reason why things in this world are so dark and why God is seemingly powerless to prevent evil things from happening. But if we as humans are veiled then it means we live in a world that blinds us to the truth and power of God, therefore His power is unable to change things, unless we have faith to believe in Him and go beyond what our senses are telling us, to open the door for the supernatural to enter our veiled world.
:2c:
I think the "sown a natural body" refers to our present state, as opposed to "raised" being the state in the resurrection.
The contrast between the heavenly man and the earthly man by Lloyd Ellefson in his publication THE GOOD SEED:
"Before we can get there, we have to pass through both the created Man (who is... the spiritual man) and the formed man (who is the carnal or earthly man).
We have two men, and the one in Genesis One we say is created, and the one in Genesis Two as formed out of the dust of the earth. In Genesis 2:5 we read that God had no man to till (or to work, serve, cultivate) the ground. Yet in Genesis One God had already created man. That is the first difference.
The first man was not made to work the soil; he was a heavenly man.
The second man is formed out of the ground, to work the ground, to be earthly, or to produce an earthly concept of God which is not a correct image, but only a temporary image that will eventually be done away with.
In Genesis One, he was created as an image.
In Genesis Two he was not created as an image. He was formed out of the creation or out of the dust of the earth. It does not say that about the first man."
A few more of the differences between these two men:
The first man was created from the Word of God; the second man was formed out of the existing creation.
Since the first man was created in the image of God, he must be spiritual.
The second man was from the dust of the earth, earthy. God breathed into him, and he became a living soul (i.e. he became aware).
The same word is used for the beasts of the field, but it is not said of plants.
The first man was created male and female, and not divided.
The second man was also created together, but was later divided.
Yet,before the twins were born,or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand,not by works
but by Him that calls, she was told. The older will serve the younger,Just as it is written,'Jacob I loved but Esau I hated"
It will happen in the very place where it was said to them'YOU ARE not my people"...they will be called sons of the living God
Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.
Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord giving thanks always for all things, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the God and Father.
II Corinthians 4:18, "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."
Then said God, Call his name Loammi.
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 10:47:04 PM
Yet,before the twins were born,or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand,not by works
but by Him that calls, she was told. The older will serve the younger,Just as it is written,'Jacob I loved but Esau I hated"
It will happen in the very place where it was said to them'YOU ARE not my people"...they will be called sons of the living God
Heb 2:7 Thou
didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands,(YLT)
Heb 2:7 Thou
hast made him, for a while, lower than angels; With glory and honour thou hast crowned him; Thou hast set him over all that thy hands have made;(
1904 Ernest Malan)
Heb 2:7 Thou
didst humiliate him somewhat comparatively with the angels; thou didst crown him with glory and honor;(1902 William Godbey)
Heb 2:7 Thou
madest him a little less than angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honor; and didst set him over the works of Thy hands;(1904 Adolphus Worrel)
Heb 2:7 Thou
hast made him only a little inferior to the angels; with glory and honour Thou hast crowned him, and hast set him to govern the works of Thy hands.(Weymouth)
Heb 2:7 You
made him for a little while inferior to angels; Yet you have crowned him with glory and honor, And you have put him in charge of the works of your hands!(1923
I would have you all noticed that, "man was not 'lowered' he was
made "lower;" God is Spirit, God is Spirit, God is Spirit.
Made, means something was not there and now it is. Thats the meaning of made. Should we be SPIRIT
first there would be NO NEED for us to be MADE for we already were. Peace and Love Through Jesus
Micah, take a look at Heb 2:9. It uses the same Greek words.
Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2011, 08:30:08 AM
Micah, take a look at Heb 2:9. It uses the same Greek words.
Yes, I agree.... Heb 2:7 Thou
madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who
was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
They were "made" short or less, Jesus was
made a human being.... lowered, man was moulded, formed, made a human being out of the dust of the ground.
IMO, there was only one creation in Genesis. Chapter two simply re states in more detail the specifics of the sixth day, concerning the creation of man, and his placement in the garden. Notice in the narration it says
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
(Gen 2:5)
This pattern of stepping back in the narration to present the specifics of a particular aspect of a narration is my no means unusual. There was no man to till the ground because God had not created him in this reference, which is a look back at the specifics presented as a general outline in chapter one.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
(Gen 2:6-10)
The first man Adam, is the man we are in until we are in Christ. The only two men are Adam and Christ. The two "alls" are- as in Adam all die so also in Christ all will be made alive. Jesus, again, IMO, as the unique son of God - Creator(alpha) and Reconcilor(omega) is the one who was "made a little while lower than the angels"- as in Phillippians, "taking on the form(morphe) of a servant, becoming obedient to the point of death on a cross"(lowered) therefore God has given Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow....."(raised). It is not my desire to be contentious at all, I just believe the views being presented are not so clear and certainly not authoritative(including mine as well perhaps). I have studied this long hours (which only means I am not shooting from the hip) have read Eby (whom I respect, but on this respectfully disagree), and I am not convinced. Altho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.
Quote from: eagleswayAltho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.
So you are saying Adam was lowered?
Eaglesway, take a look at the different sequence in events, in how things are created in Gen 1 and Gen 2. In Gen 1, man is made last. In Gen 2, Man is made first.
Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2011, 09:07:13 AM
Quote from: eagleswayAltho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.
So you are saying Adam was lowered?
Eaglesway, take a look at the different sequence in events, in how things are created in Gen 1 and Gen 2. In Gen 1, man is made last. In Gen 2, Man is made first.
"So you are saying Adam was lowered?"
No, not if you read what he wrote.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 09:15:12 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2011, 09:07:13 AM
Quote from: eagleswayAltho we are also a little while lower than the angels, I think it is because we are born in the first man- Adam. He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith.
So you are saying Adam was lowered?
Eaglesway, take a look at the different sequence in events, in how things are created in Gen 1 and Gen 2. In Gen 1, man is made last. In Gen 2, Man is made first.
"So you are saying Adam was lowered?"
No, not if you read what he wrote.
I did read it.
He said:
"He gave his higher rank up when he received the "word" of principalities, and receives it back only in Christ through faith."
That sounds like 'lowered' to me.
Hi Molly
In Gen 2 Adam was not made first as I read it. I read gen 2 as a more specific detail presented concerning Gen 1, 6th day. As I said, it says "There was NO MAN t till the ground. IMO that is because Adam was not created yet, it is a highlighted perspective on the sixth day.... Like this
if I describe the general timeline of a construction project in the first chapter of a book. Then in the second chapter, I alude to specific details about that foundation I did not reference in the general outline as a transition to the subject I am now explaining in detail.
I also think it is quite possible that Adam was not lower than the angels till he "fell"/ was lowered because he "ate" from the tree of KOGAE(knowledge of good and evil :o) Jesus, being born of a woman, born under law, born into fallen mortal flesh was thus "lowered" into commonality with our estate so that he could redeem us from it, tasting death for every man.
I don't have any problem with lowered as the result of sin in the garden. I have a problem with lowered from some pre-existent state as sentient spirits- but as I said before, I could be wrong- I am just not presently seeing any convincing presentations out of the word to change my view.
Quote from: eagleswayI also think it is quite possible that Adam was not lower than the angels till he "fell"/ was lowered because he "ate" from the tree of KOGAE(knowledge of good and evil :o) Jesus, being born of a woman, born under law, born into fallen mortal flesh was thus "lowered" into commonality with our estate so that he could redeem us from it, tasting death for every man.
.
But if Adam was an 'angel,' wouldn't that make him originally a spiritual being?
Sequence of events in Gen 2:water goes up from the earth [baptism by water]
God forms Man from the dust and breathes into his nostrils [baptism by Holy Spirit]
God creates plants in the garden.
Trees, including two special trees.
A river which parts into four heads.
Every beast of the field and fowl of the air.
Eve.
Interesting?
Think of this--
God creates a clay man who is given the status of angels[sons of God] in dominion and likeness and image of God.
That must have really burned Satan and his minions. Satan to self--It will take me two seconds to dispatch of this clay man and take over his dominion.
But, what Satan didn't know was this--we were chosen in Christ before the casting down of the kosmos. Satan didn't know who he was dealing with. He was dealing with a clay man hidden in Christ.
For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like men condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to men.
--1 Cor 4:9
:thumbsup:
.....and remember,,Jesus Christ and the Father are ONE Spirit.....and so,too,Adam..until partaking of the tokogae...and an evil spirit/sin as we
know it,entered in[enemy sowed tares]....Satan coveted to raise himself above the stars of heaven[angels] and above Father's chosen for
Dominion on earth.
Actually satan has a big problem....IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ALMIGHTY IN MAN....HE HAS ATTACKED GOD GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU
THAN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD
1 Peter 1;20 He was chosen before the creation of the world,but was revealed in these last times for your sake.Through him you beleive in God,
who raised him from the dead and glorified him,and so your faith and hope are in GOD.
entered in, or was it there all the time?
perhaps we're just witnessing the time it took dominion.
remember, you/me are the "earth," and self-will eclipses the Son until the Day Star rises in your heart. Then you are Light inside and out!
Zech 1;15 I was only an little angry,but they added to the calamity.
Isaaih 47;6 I was angry with my people,and desecrated my inheritance, I gave them into your hand and you showed them no mercy. Even
on the aged you laid a very heavy yoke
Jer 46;28 I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished
Justice, an iron rod, but above all this MERCY.
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Who am I that you are mindful of me?
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Now that was the Lord God who said that. Does He not know what He did? "DUST" you are.
He was talking to Adam, not Christ.
Now, who am I that you are mindful of me!
Praise God; we are the Body of Christ.
Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2011, 09:34:05 AM
Quote from: eagleswayI also think it is quite possible that Adam was not lower than the angels till he "fell"/ was lowered because he "ate" from the tree of KOGAE(knowledge of good and evil :o) Jesus, being born of a woman, born under law, born into fallen mortal flesh was thus "lowered" into commonality with our estate so that he could redeem us from it, tasting death for every man.
.
But if Adam was an 'angel,' wouldn't that make him originally a spiritual being?
Sequence of events in Gen 2:
water goes up from the earth [baptism by water]
God forms Man from the dust and breathes into his nostrils [baptism by Holy Spirit]
God creates plants in the garden.
Trees, including two special trees.
A river which parts into four heads.
Every beast of the field and fowl of the air.
Eve.
Interesting?
Where does it say Adam was an angel :o) Its a fine "if" but, I havent seen that in the word.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 31, 2011, 06:08:16 PM
He was talking to Adam, not Christ.
Now, who am I that you are mindful of me!
Praise God; we are the Body of Christ.
Aint that the whole point of Gen. 3:19?
Quote from: SheilaActually satan has a big problem....IT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE ALMIGHTY IN MAN....HE HAS ATTACKED GOD GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU
THAN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD
Yes!
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves.
--2 Cor 4:7
Consider this verse 1Co 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised:
Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2011, 04:33:43 PM
Quote from: BelovedServantSlain before the foundation of the world
We were chosen in Him before [pro] the casting down [katabole] of the world.
The lamb was slain from [apo] the casting down [katabole] of the world.
In other words, the way I read it, the casting down of the world is what caused the lamb to be slain. Satan was a murderer from the beginning.
The way I read it, the lamb slain was the first thought(logos) of God in the expression/revelation of the divine nature to the creation, and it was within the original eudokia(kind intention) of His purpose to gather all things in one in Christ. :o) And these are all perspectives of a truth perhaps to great for us to fully intellectualize of course.
there are only two wills...the will of the adversary[evil] and the will of God[good] the will of one enters and leads us into perdition.[murderer]
..and the will of the other enters us and brings us forth from it[to tol/eternal life] Man's will,as we know it, comes from these two sources/spirits.
God says we can not serve two masters...the wages of one is death..the free gift of the other is eternal life
Quote from: eaglesway on July 31, 2011, 06:14:59 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 31, 2011, 09:34:05 AM
Quote from: eagleswayI also think it is quite possible that Adam was not lower than the angels till he "fell"/ was lowered because he "ate" from the tree of KOGAE(knowledge of good and evil :o) Jesus, being born of a woman, born under law, born into fallen mortal flesh was thus "lowered" into commonality with our estate so that he could redeem us from it, tasting death for every man.
.
But if Adam was an 'angel,' wouldn't that make him originally a spiritual being?
Sequence of events in Gen 2:
water goes up from the earth [baptism by water]
God forms Man from the dust and breathes into his nostrils [baptism by Holy Spirit]
God creates plants in the garden.
Trees, including two special trees.
A river which parts into four heads.
Every beast of the field and fowl of the air.
Eve.
Interesting?
Where does it say Adam was an angel :o) Its a fine "if" but, I havent seen that in the word.
I was just responding to what you said, 'it is quite possible that Adam was not lower than the angels until he fell.." So, I put 'angel' in quotes. I think I understood you to be saying that Adam might have been on the same level as angels. And, I asked--wouldnt that make him a spiritual being?
the book of Enoch records that God said He created man a secound angel...if you can receive this.
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 06:26:33 PM
the book of Enoch records that God said He created man a secound angel...if you can receive this.
What is a 'second' angel?
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 06:22:10 PM
there are only two wills...the will of the adversary[evil] and the will of God[good] the will of one enters and leads us into perdition.[murderer]
..and the will of the other enters us and brings us forth from it[to tol/eternal life] Man's will,as we know it, comes from these two sources/spirits.
God says we can not serve two masters...the wages of one is death..the free gift of the other is eternal life
Im not sure where you get some of your information but to say,"there are only two wills," and giving the adversary credit for one, is what I consider to be blasphemy! There is only ONE WILL and that is The Fathers Will.
...leaving all else simply a candle in the wind.
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 06:26:33 PM
the book of Enoch records that God said He created man a secound angel...if you can receive this.
Stop with the book of enoch, ["if you can receive this"] please. As far as I know we are dealing with information from 66 books.
Im not trying to cause disturbance but I do not feel the book of enoch or the book of mary, or thomas (all are good reading) but have no input or do they?
DISOBEDIANCE HAS A WILL OF IT'S OWN...and it is Not of the Father.
But,I'm sorry...I just realized this is taboo...and I do not deserve to stir up contention. I will speak no further of it out of respect for the administrators
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 06:35:23 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 06:26:33 PM
the book of Enoch records that God said He created man a secound angel...if you can receive this.
Stop with the book of enoch, ["if you can receive this"] please. As far as I know we are dealing with information from 66 books.
Im not trying to cause disturbance but I do not feel the book of enoch or the book of mary, or thomas (all are good reading) but have no input or do they?
Our Bible refers to the book of Enoch. So I would think Sheila could also.
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 06:35:49 PM
DISOBEDIANCE HAS A WILL OF IT'S OWN...and it is Not of the Father.
It's the pride of life.
I have no problem with these concepts. the second angel, etc. I think it is an error to teach them as foundational or expect others to receive them when there is another reasonable interpretation of the scriptures. I tend to agree with micah on the 66 books tho. I certainly would not seek to overturn someone elses belief in something seen through a glass darkly on the basis of things wrtten in apocraphal books.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 06:22:10 PM
there are only two wills...the will of the adversary[evil] and the will of God[good] the will of one enters and leads us into perdition.[murderer]
..and the will of the other enters us and brings us forth from it[to tol/eternal life] Man's will,as we know it, comes from these two sources/spirits.
God says we can not serve two masters...the wages of one is death..the free gift of the other is eternal life
Im not sure where you get some of your information but to say,"there are only two wills," and giving the adversary credit for one, is what I consider to be blasphemy! There is only ONE WILL and that is The Fathers Will.
At some point believers have to be able to discuss things that challenge our parameters of safety without fear and vehemence. i have not considered anything I have read here to be incendiary.
The servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle towards all men, etc, etc, speaking the truth in love etc etc :HeartThrob:
That being said I think there are at least three wills, the will of God(for freedom Christ has set you free), The will of man(choose THIS DAY whom you will serve) , and the will of the adversary. I like James chapter three for expressing the ongoing struggle between these three wills.
1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.
3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
7 All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind, 8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God's likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing(will of man). My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom(will of man). 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic(will of the adversary). 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven(will of God) is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace reap a harvest of righteousness.
well,I certainly have no problem with shining light on something dark..from the book of Enoch.
Jude 4 Enoch prophesied about these men. If you do not think Enoch's prophesy is pertinent to the revealing of the man of sin...though these scriptures declare it
in our day...and Paul also spoke of this revealing.2 Peter 1;21 ...These very men that Jesus Christ is prophesied to do away with,with the breath of His coming
v19 ...and we have the word of the prophets made more certain,and you will do well to pay attention to it,as a light,shining in a dark place,until
the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts
I have no problem with shining light on something dark from Enoch either. I just don't think the fact that Jude quotes Enoch is PROOF TEXT that the book of Enoch we have is as thoroughly and accurately preserved as the cannon of the 66 books of the bible(which are not as thoroughly preserved themselves as we might like). Even if taken as equal to those scriptures, which I have no objection to for those who do- it is only equal and any quotes from it are still subject to balance from the entire context of whatever you receive as holy writngs. For me the 66 are first. Clement, Barnabas second, Enoch third.... but thats just me.... my simple estimation. I would not overturn a volume of verses in the bible that indicate to me that there are two "alls" (all die in Adam, all live in Christ, the second-not third- Adam) because of an obscure quote from Enoch- altho I do look harder at what I hold to be tru lest I should be guilty of quick judgment. As yet, I just don't see it.
is it not God..who wills and caused us to do His pleasure? Brother, Jesus said,not mine,but thy will be done...declaring a desire of his own...
BUT LOOK! the prince of this world comes...AND HE HAS NOTHING IN ME...and Jesus, knowing what was 'in man' Matthew 9 ...
why? do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts
I appreciate the liberty you allow me,in Christ,and neither do I judge any in Christ :HeartThrob:
and well said..your speaking of us being able to speak out of our normal comfort zone.
For many prophets died..when those who were unable to bear/hear in Israel,yelled 'BLASPHEMY!"
His desire, will, was to do the Father's will, Lo, it is written in the volume of the book of me- I come to do Thy will O God(Abel, acceptable sacrifices)- the Pharisees desire was to do their fathers will, adversaries(Cain, am I my brothers keeper?)- Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve! Today if you hear His voice, Harden not your hearts! :o)
man's mind...a mix..sometimes good,sometimes evil....Christ's mind..always obediant to Father's will..
the revealing of the man of sin...is all about the 'why' of it.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 06:30:10 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 06:22:10 PM
there are only two wills...the will of the adversary[evil] and the will of God[good] the will of one enters and leads us into perdition.[murderer]
..and the will of the other enters us and brings us forth from it[to tol/eternal life] Man's will,as we know it, comes from these two sources/spirits.
God says we can not serve two masters...the wages of one is death..the free gift of the other is eternal life
Im not sure where you get some of your information but to say,"there are only two wills," and giving the adversary credit for one, is what I consider to be blasphemy! There is only ONE WILL and that is The Fathers Will.
There is only ONE WILL that is worth following, not one prayer is answered if it is not His Will, not one raindrop falls but for His Will, not one person is born or not one person dies without His Will.
Heb 6:3 and this we will do, if God may permit,
Heb 13:21 make you perfect in every good work to do His will, doing in you that which is well-pleasing before Him, through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory--to the ages of the ages! Amen.
1Pe 4:2 no more in the desires of men, but in the will of God, to live the rest of the time in the flesh;
1Jn 5:14 And this is the boldness that we have toward Him, that if anything we may ask according to his will, He doth hear us,
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 11:13:09 PM
There is only ONE WILL that is worth following, not one prayer is answered if it is not His Will, not one raindrop falls but for His Will, not one person is born or not one person dies without His Will.
Micah's on fire for the Lord.
and that is fine,as long as he doesn't burn up the wheat with weeds :mshock:
Quote from: sheila on July 31, 2011, 11:24:19 PM
and that is fine,as long as he doesn't burn up the wheat with weeds :mshock:
NOT TO WORRY :happygrin: :happy3:
Yea, I'm not completely separated yet! The harvest is not in! I'm not sure what will burn and what will be gathered!
Whew! Sure am glad its not up to me ;o)
Psa 104:25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
Psa 104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Psa 104:27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.
Psa 104:28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
So yes, as you say, "spirit does not die", but God has not given us a spiritual body simply because "He sends forth His spirit and they are created". Bugs and beasts are not eternal spirits simply because they have God's spirit sustaining that life. What they are is dust with God sustaining their physical life by His spirit just as he sustains the stars and planets by His spirit. So when God "takes away their breath [ruach, spirit, they no longer have their spirit and] they die, and return to their dust.
So you are not spirit but dust. That is what God Himself tells us. "Dust thou art".
"You take away their breath [ruach ,spirit] they die and return to dust", not 'they live and return to spirit'.
For what reason did Jesus give out this information, if mankind/adam was already spirit?
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
Adam is a spiritual being in flesh...who was murdered..when led to partake of death. Through this design the adversary entered man and brought forth wickedness
Christ come to re light the smoldering wick of spirit in man...that he may spiritually live before God. MAN with the indwelling spirit of God is
the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH...you can test spirits on this very thing. The dormant seed in the body of man is of God...the VERY BREATH
OF GOD HIMSELF IS IN MAN.....and JESUS CHRIST IS COMING!!AND WILL DO AWAY WITH THE LAWLESS ONE BY HIS VERY BREATH!!!
GOD HIMSELF WILL DESTROY THOSE WHO DESTROY HIS TEMPLE.
We have received our little 'help' from the Lord..the token of our inheritance...a relit candle,and a little oil in our vessels..to see us through
Micah, I think this is about birth in two stages.
First man is born from the mothers womb (water)
The man sorta breaks out of the womb.
Inside that man is a spirit. Mostly sleeping I would say.
But for some people that spirit wakes up. For examply by reading your posts :winkgrin:
Then that spirit breaks out of the body.
That's the second birth.
Just like you were really Micah before you were born, you didn't manifest yourself until you were actually born.
I think :dontknow:
Quote from: sheila on August 01, 2011, 09:57:10 PM
We have received our little 'help' from the Lord..the token of our inheritance...a relit candle,and a little oil in our vessels..to see us through
Help? Help often backfires :laughing7:
ACVGenesis 220 And the man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the heavens, and to every beast of the field, but for man there was not found a help meet for him.
:bigGrin:
the help meet of the Holy spirit is like this..in Proverbs 31;10-31 her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value
she considers a feild and buys it[Kingdom of heaven like a pearl hid in a feild]
she selects wool and flax[clothes with Lamb and linen/righteousness]
plants a vineyard...her lamp doesn't go out[like foolish virgin] opens her arms to the poor
she speaks with wisdom and faithful instruction,watches over her household and is diligent
a woman who fears the Lord..is to be praised...give her the reward she has earned..let her works give her praise
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
Micah, I think this is about birth in two stages.
First man is born from the mothers womb (water)
The man sorta breaks out of the womb.
Inside that man is a spirit. Mostly sleeping I would say.
But for some people that spirit wakes up. For examply by reading your posts :winkgrin:
Then that spirit breaks out of the body.
That's the second birth.
Just like you were really Micah before you were born, you didn't manifest yourself until you were actually born.
I think :dontknow:
Two stages yes. Joh 3:6 That which is
born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be
born anew.
Quote from: sheila on August 01, 2011, 10:13:42 PM
:bigGrin:
the help meet of the Holy spirit is like this..in Proverbs 31;10-31 her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value
she considers a feild and buys it[Kingdom of heaven like a pearl hid in a feild]
she selects wool and flax[clothes with Lamb and linen/righteousness]
plants a vineyard...her lamp doesn't go out[like foolish virgin] opens her arms to the poor
she speaks with wisdom and faithful instruction,watches over her household and is diligent
a woman who fears the Lord..is to be praised...give her the reward she has earned..let her works give her praise
Amen.
Thank you, Sheila.
QuoteAdam is a spiritual being in flesh...who was murdered..when led to partake of death. Through this design the adversary entered man and brought forth wickedness
Christ come to re light the smoldering wick of spirit in man...that he may spiritually live before God. MAN with the indwelling spirit of God is
the WORD OF GOD COME IN FLESH...you can test spirits on this very thing. The dormant seed in the body of man is of God...the VERY BREATH
OF GOD HIMSELF IS IN MAN.....
:HeartThrob:
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. [Rev 12:10]
can a man give birth? then why do I see every man with his hands on his stomach,like a woman in labour? every face turned deathly pale.
How awful that day will be.None will be like it..It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,BUT HE WILL BE SAVED OUT OF IT
Jeremiah 30;6 Restoration of Israel
very well said,WW :HeartThrob:
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear.
Micah, is it possible that you are over-reaching the extent of the natural then spiritual verse? Here it seems that invisible/spiritual is first then natural, which obviously God is spirit so it would have to be first.
Possibly the natural then spiritual relates to types/ patterns or in relating to showing us the way home, whereas overall spirit then natural relates to the cosmic order (for lack of a better term)????
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
Micah, I think this is about birth in two stages.
First man is born from the mothers womb (water)
The man sorta breaks out of the womb.
Inside that man is a spirit. Mostly sleeping I would say.
But for some people that spirit wakes up. For examply by reading your posts :winkgrin:
Then that spirit breaks out of the body.
That's the second birth.
Just like you were really Micah before you were born, you didn't manifest yourself until you were actually born.
I think :dontknow:
I didnt manifest myself at all.
Quote from: redhotmagma on August 01, 2011, 10:46:11 PM
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear.
Micah, is it possible that you are over-reaching the extent of the natural then spiritual verse? Here it seems that invisible/spiritual is first then natural, which obviously God is spirit so it would have to be first.
Possibly the natural then spiritual relates to types/ patterns or in relating to showing us the way home, whereas overall spirit then natural relates to the cosmic order (for lack of a better term)????
There is no overreaching, Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds came into being, and still exist, at the
command of God, so that what is seen does not owe its existence to that which is visible.
And you look at that visible or appear as spirit?This is hard for a spirit to do, I think??? Heb 9:27 And since it is reserved for all
mankind once to die, and afterwards to be judged;
1Co 15:16 For if none
of the dead are raised to life, then Christ has not risen;
See that the operative word "dead," the need to die. As far as I know spirits dont die. And Jesus became a man so He could die. Yes God is Spirit and out from that very spirit follows EVERYTHING that is, birds, cattle, crickets, cockroaches, spiders, snakes, mountains, valleys, rivers, EVERYTHING, I do not see them as being spirits first, yet them came from what the Spirit has done.
Jesus..... "Do not be astonished at my telling you,
'You must all be born anew.' " John 3:7
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 02, 2011, 02:49:49 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
Micah, I think this is about birth in two stages.
First man is born from the mothers womb (water)
The man sorta breaks out of the womb.
Inside that man is a spirit. Mostly sleeping I would say.
But for some people that spirit wakes up. For examply by reading your posts :winkgrin:
Then that spirit breaks out of the body.
That's the second birth.
Just like you were really Micah before you were born, you didn't manifest yourself until you were actually born.
I think :dontknow:
I didnt manifest myself at all.
Not?
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2011, 08:10:40 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 02, 2011, 02:49:49 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 01, 2011, 10:01:27 PM
Micah, I think this is about birth in two stages.
First man is born from the mothers womb (water)
The man sorta breaks out of the womb.
Inside that man is a spirit. Mostly sleeping I would say.
But for some people that spirit wakes up. For examply by reading your posts :winkgrin:
Then that spirit breaks out of the body.
That's the second birth.
Just like you were really Micah before you were born, you didn't manifest yourself until you were actually born.
I think :dontknow:
I didnt manifest myself at all.
Not?
?????????????????? :sigh: :dontknow: :happy3:
You manifested yourself 2484 times on this forum.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 02, 2011, 10:39:45 PM
You manifested yourself 2484 times on this forum.
I need to NOT manifest myself when I see one of your unique posts. I must stay alert :laughing7:
At ease soldier. WW is going to his bunk. :lazy:
Molly
Spiritual offspring are nursed/nurtured by the MOTHER ROLE. Isaih 66;11-13
For you will nurse[milk] and be satisfied at her comforting breasts,you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance....
you will be nursed and carried on her arm and be dandled on her knees. As a mother comforts her child,so will I comfort you. EL SHADDAI
1 Thes 2;7 Ephesians 5;29 IT IS A VERY WONDERFUL THING TO BE A CHILD OF THE FREE WOMAN
in addition
Rev 1;13 golden girdle about His chest.....this speaks of the special vestment Father give him. Powers/virtues...it is what went forth from Him when the woman
with the flow of blood touched the hem of His garment.
the golden girdle=breast portion given to High Preist....a mere woman shall encompass a man....He came that we have life more abundantly now..and eternal life in the
following. the life abundant comes from the abundant breasts of Zion
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
We do indeed have the earnest of the spirit even now.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
We do not innately possess "the earnest of the spirit", yet that 'earnest' is all we have "until the redemption of the purchased possession", which is the spiritual body we receive only when "it is raised a spiritual body", not when it was a spiritual body to begin with.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
"If there is no resurrection from the dead then they that are asleep in Christ are perished". Those words are a lie if we are originally immortal spirit bodies.
So I ask, Where is King David?
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Quote from: MicahWe do not innately possess "the earnest of the spirit", yet that 'earnest' is all we have "until the redemption of the purchased possession",
We might not possess it innately, but we possess the ability to receive it innately.
For instance, my dog willingly tries to understand everything I say to him, but he does not possess the innate ability to learn language the way my [human] babies do. There is a *qualitative* difference.
Quote from: Molly on August 03, 2011, 02:15:50 AM
Quote from: MicahWe do not innately possess "the earnest of the spirit", yet that 'earnest' is all we have "until the redemption of the purchased possession",
We might not possess it innately, but we possess the ability to receive it innately.
For instance, my dog willingly tries to understand everything I say to him, but he does not possess the innate ability to learn language the way my [human] babies do. There is a *qualitative* difference.
Your dogs gotta die.
Jesus said to her,'I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE,HE WHO BELEIVES IN ME WILL LIVE,EVEN THOUGH HE DIES,AND WHOEVER LIVES AND
BELEIVES IN ME,WILL NEVER DIE. DO YOU BELEIVE THIS? WHERE DO YOU THINK ALL THE APOSTLE'S ARE? STEPHEN...Surely they lived in Christ..and even
though they died a martyrs death..they ARE ALIVE...Look! Rev 14..firstfruits..where are they[in the grave?]
when we are changed[which we are doing] do not think we shall precede the dead.....for they return with him
Quote from: SheilaJesus said to her,'I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE,HE WHO BELEIVES IN ME WILL LIVE,EVEN THOUGH HE DIES,AND WHOEVER LIVES AND
BELEIVES IN ME,WILL NEVER DIE. DO YOU BELEIVE THIS?
Yes, I do. :thumbsup: :girlheart:
25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
--John 11
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 02:42:29 AM
when we are changed[which we are doing]
Is this an apparent change?
Acts 2;31 seeing what was ahead,he spoke of the resurrection of Chris[annointed/Spirit] THAT HE WAS NOT ABANDONED TO THE GRAVE
NOR DID HIS BODY{WHICH IS SPIRIT BODY ALL MANKIND ARE RAISED IN IMAGE OF} SEE DECAY...Now Adam[and Paul] once were alive[apart from law]
but when the commandment came.SIN SPRANG TO LIFE AND I DIED [Romans 7;9] ....for sin[evil spirit] seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment
,deceived me,and through the commandment put me to death...
but in order that sin might be recognized as sin,it produced death in me,through what was good
to be spiritually alive..is to have a life quickening spirit[note John the Baptist in womb/leaping] as Christ had/life in himself..it quickens a mortal body
to be spiritually dead..is to see corruption..
.now..at the judgement...they are judged for their works...and we know that the prince of this world's works are evil
know that the law is spiritual,but I am unspiritual...SOLD AS A SLAVE TO SIN
a few words about sin's law....when a son disobeys[or an evil spirit can deceive/bribe him in to it] sin's law enter's in and brings forth corruption and death
examine how it entered into Adam and Eve...and how it attempted to in Christ's temptation by satan.
only to those who are watching for Him
What do they see?
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
...and body.
no man ever hated his own flesh[especially Christ] He feeds,clothes and cherishes it. When He calls your new name...you will rise...
or if you remain alive until He comes to harvest the whole earth....you will be transformed then into the new body,and rise with Him
:sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
Why sigh?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 03, 2011, 05:35:02 AM
Why sigh?
Im just tired, there is a chosen out of the called, and it is that elect that will be revealed, I believe when 1Jn 3:2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that
if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;
That's not the same as Sheila's "if."
Not much into "if" Im more into He Will. :bigGrin:
:bigGrin:
Exactly.
Read on: 1 John 3:3; it is hope that purifies.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 03, 2011, 06:34:36 AM
:bigGrin:
Exactly.
Read on: 1 John 3:3; it is hope that purifies.
Amen :bigGrin:
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:26:06 AM
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
Glooooorrryyyy!
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:26:06 AM
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
my problem is...as I see him more clearly, I also see evil more clearly.
Is there hope for me? Seeing evil in full color, HD, with stereophonic sound is not much fun.
You bet! :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 03, 2011, 08:14:40 AM
You bet! :bigGrin:
well, I'm happy to hear that Micah, but you killed off my dog today. :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on August 03, 2011, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:26:06 AM
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
my problem is...as I see him more clearly, I also see evil more clearly.
Is there hope for me? Seeing evil in full color, HD, with stereophonic sound is not much fun.
Stop watching horror films :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: Molly on August 03, 2011, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:26:06 AM
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
my problem is...as I see him more clearly, I also see evil more clearly.
Is there hope for me? Seeing evil in full color, HD, with stereophonic sound is not much fun.
Perhaps,
It's demon possession.
It's like a virus and can contaminate others that come in contact.
Molly,it is the High Preists job to make the people aware of the holy from the vile[you will again see the destinction between the righteous and the wicked]
Looks to me,He is doing His job in you.But keep your eyes on Him[like Peter,when you look at your surroundings/lest you go under]
Isaaih 41;10 So do not gaze about,for I am with you,do not be dismayed,for I AM YOUR GOD
YOUR EYES WILL SEE THE KING IN HIS BEAUTY,AND VEIW A LAND THAT STRTCHES AFAR[PROMISES/INHERITANCE]
IN YOUR THOUGHTS YOU WILL PONDER THE FORMER TERROR,'WHERE IS THAT CHEIF OFFICER?'[THREATS OF ET]
WHERE IS THE ONE WHO TOOK THE REVENUE?[TITHES]
WHERE IS THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE TOWERS?[BABYLON]
YOU WILL SEE THOSE ARROGANT PEOPLE NO MORE
THOSE PEOPLE OF AN OBSCURE SPEECH
WITH THEIR STRANGE INCOMPREHENSIBLE TONGUE[CONFUSION/BABYLON]
MARK 9;
25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evila spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never enter him again."
26 The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead."
27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.
28 After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, "Why couldn't we drive it out?"
and the answer remains the same
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 03:56:22 PM
Molly,it is the High Preists job to make the people aware of the holy from the vile[you will again see the destinction between the righteous and the wicked]
Looks to me,He is doing His job in you.But keep your eyes on Him[like Peter,when you look at your surroundings/lest you go under]
Isaaih 41;10 So do not gaze about,for I am with you,do not be dismayed,for I AM YOUR GOD
Thanks, Sheila.
That's what I've been doing these many years. It just seems like evil is maturing these days. It's harder to look at it. But, I guess that makes it more obvious, too.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 03, 2011, 04:36:00 PM
and the answer remains the same
Amen.
"My peace I give you."
He is the Prince of Peace.
"Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."
re; evil is maturing
for her sins are piled up to heaven....take your sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine,because it's grapes are ripe
The angel swung his sickle on the earth,gathered it's grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath....they were trampled
in the winepress outside the city
"However, in this be not rejoicing, that the spirits are subject to you, yet be rejoicing that your names are engraven in the heavens."
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 05:40:51 PM
re; evil is maturing
for her sins are piled up to heaven....take your sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine,because it's grapes are ripe
The angel swung his sickle on the earth,gathered it's grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath....they were trampled
in the winepress outside the city
Sheila, wouldn't this mean we have reached the fullness of the Gentiles?
The grape harvest is the last harvest.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
--Rom 11:25
"Wait! Don't harm the land or the sea or the trees until we have placed the seal of God on the foreheads of his servants."
--Rev 7:3
Quote from: eaglesway on August 03, 2011, 07:40:12 AM
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:26:06 AM
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
Glooooorrryyyy!
YES!! :dsunny:
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 03:56:22 PM
Molly,it is the High Preists job to make the people aware of the holy from the vile[you will again see the destinction between the righteous and the wicked]
Looks to me,He is doing His job in you.But keep your eyes on Him[like Peter,when you look at your surroundings/lest you go under]
Isaaih 41;10 So do not gaze about,for I am with you,do not be dismayed,for I AM YOUR GOD
Amen!!
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:06:40 PM
YOUR EYES WILL SEE THE KING IN HIS BEAUTY,AND VEIW A LAND THAT STRTCHES AFAR[PROMISES/INHERITANCE]
IN YOUR THOUGHTS YOU WILL PONDER THE FORMER TERROR,'WHERE IS THAT CHEIF OFFICER?'[THREATS OF ET]
WHERE IS THE ONE WHO TOOK THE REVENUE?[TITHES]
WHERE IS THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE TOWERS?[BABYLON]
YOU WILL SEE THOSE ARROGANT PEOPLE NO MORE
THOSE PEOPLE OF AN OBSCURE SPEECH
WITH THEIR STRANGE INCOMPREHENSIBLE TONGUE[CONFUSION/BABYLON]
And Amen again!!
Molly
BECAUSE OF THE INCREASING OF LAWLESSNESS.[fullness of gentiles]..THE LOVE OF MANY WILL WAX COLD
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 06:25:49 PM
Molly
BECAUSE OF THE INCREASING OF LAWLESSNESS.[fullness of gentiles]..THE LOVE OF MANY WILL WAX COLD
I never could see why that would happen--until recently. Now it's abundantly clear. And, I also think it's a warning to us as to why we need to cling to Jesus--more than ever.
5For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
6Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
7Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
8For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.
--Zech 2
Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2011, 11:15:21 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 03, 2011, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:26:06 AM
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
my problem is...as I see him more clearly, I also see evil more clearly.
Is there hope for me? Seeing evil in full color, HD, with stereophonic sound is not much fun.
Stop watching horror films :icon_jokercolor:
Didn't you like my joke Molly?
On a serious note, by becoming closer to the Lord we then see evil more clearly, the way he sees it, becoming more sensitive and not letting evil through the eyes and ears.
But I think and have experience that God can give a sense of victory when seeing evil, almost as if, ah that is nothing, all will be ok.
Similar to how a cowboy, just shoots the bad guy without getting overly angry, the steely eyed conquerer.
Rev 20;9
They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people,the city He loves.But fire came down from
Heaven and devoured them[tares burned] Luke 11;26
Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2011, 06:58:35 PM
Quote from: thinktank on August 03, 2011, 11:15:21 AM
Quote from: Molly on August 03, 2011, 07:57:56 AM
Quote from: sheila on August 03, 2011, 04:26:06 AM
they see glory after glory in Him...they see the Kingdom of Heaven coming into focus..brighter and brighter..until..they see Him face to face
and have no questions,anylonger. Their understanding will be as His..eye to eye. His heart will be their heart,His mind will be theirs..a
union of heart and mind
my problem is...as I see him more clearly, I also see evil more clearly.
Is there hope for me? Seeing evil in full color, HD, with stereophonic sound is not much fun.
Stop watching horror films :icon_jokercolor:
Didn't you like my joke Molly?
On a serious note, by becoming closer to the Lord we then see evil more clearly, the way he sees it, becoming more sensitive and not letting evil through the eyes and ears.
But I think and have experience that God can give a sense of victory when seeing evil, almost as if, ah that is nothing, all will be ok.
Similar to how a cowboy, just shoots the bad guy without getting overly angry, the steely eyed conquerer.
I did like your joke lol. I also like horror movies. Every movie made these days is a horror movie.
I do feel that sense of victory, so I know what you are talking about, but rarely.
Really liked your post TT
Jesus didn't get rattled by them,did He?
John 2:15;
So he made a whip out of cords, and drove ALL from the temple area, both sheep and cattle;
he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.
wow
HE IS FULFILLING ALL THIS IN US,IN OUR DAY...OUR SOUL DOES MAGNIFY THE LORD!!!!!!
iSAAIH 48;20
lEAVE bABYLON FLEE FROM THE BABYLONIANS,ANNOUNCE THIS WITH SHOUTS OF JOY,AND PROCLAIM IT!
SEND IT OUT TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH; SAY,'THE LORD HAS REDEEMED HIS SERVANT JACOB,
THEY DID NOT THIRST WHEN HE LED THEM THROUGH THE DESSERTS
HE MADE WATER FLOW FOR THEM FROM THE ROCK
HE SPLIT THE ROCK AND WATER GUSHED OUT
THERE IS NO PEACE,SAID THE LORD,FOR THE WICKED
Heb 2:6 and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, `What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him?
Heb 2:7 Thou didst make him some little less than messengers,(angles) with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands,
Heb 2:8 all things Thou didst put in subjection under his feet,' for in the subjecting to him the all things, nothing did He leave to him unsubjected, and now not yet do we see the all things subjected to him,
Heb 2:9 and him who was made some little less than messengers(angels) we see--Jesus--because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death.
Angel G32 aggelos a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.
As far as I can see man was made a little less than messengers, now some say that man was lowered from spirit to experience the earthy, I do not see anything in angels(messengers) that says they were "spirits" first or that angels[messengers] are spirits.
Man was formed and made from the dust of the ground and was given the power to breath and live, live the same living as all breathing creatures.
I reason that mankind thinks pretty much of himself, because he was given abilities that were different from the other beasts of the field. And man has invented many things to make him feel quite good about himself.
Psa 82:6 I--I have said, `Gods ye are , And sons of the Most High--all of you,
Psa 82:7 But as man ye die, and as one of the heads ye fall,
Psa 82:8 Rise, O God, judge the earth, For Thou hast inheritance among all the nations!
(WNT) For if there is any one who thinks himself to be somebody when he is nobody, he is deluding himself. Gal. 6:3
2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
Peace and Love Through Jesus
As far as I can see man was made a little less than messengers, now some say that man was lowered from spirit to experience the earthy, I do not see anything in angels(messengers) that says they were "spirits" first or that angels[messengers] are spirits.
Man was formed and made from the dust of the ground and was given the power to breath and live, live the same living as all breathing creatures.
I reason that mankind thinks pretty much of himself, because he was given abilities that were different from the other beasts of the field. And man has invented many things to make him feel quite good about himself.
Amen!!!
I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me!!
Christ had water and blood flow from Him on the cross to state that both spirit and flesh died. This paid the price for every aspect of our being.
Christ was the first to be raised from the dead.
We will be like Christ.
If we deny that Christ came in the flesh then we are not following the truth. 1 John 4;2 " Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh is of God."
1 Cor 15;49 " And even as we have borne the image of the man of earth let us also bear the image of the man of heaven."
Quote from: Ross on August 10, 2011, 11:19:21 AM
As far as I can see man was made a little less than messengers,
Jesus was.
ACVHeb 29 But we see Jesus who has been made a little something less than the heavenly agents, who, because of the suffering of death, has been crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God he would taste of death for every man.
Quotenow some say that man was lowered from spirit to experience the earthy,
Jesus was.
Quote from: Ross on August 10, 2011, 11:19:21 AM
As far as I can see man was made a little less than messengers, now some say that man was lowered from spirit to experience the earthy, I do not see anything in angels(messengers) that says they were "spirits" first or that angels[messengers] are spirits.
Man was formed and made from the dust of the ground and was given the power to breath and live, live the same living as all breathing creatures.
I reason that mankind thinks pretty much of himself, because he was given abilities that were different from the other beasts of the field. And man has invented many things to make him feel quite good about himself.
Amen!!!
I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me!!
Christ had water and blood flow from Him on the cross to state that both spirit and flesh died. This paid the price for every aspect of our being.
Christ was the first to be raised from the dead.
We will be like Christ.
If we deny that Christ came in the flesh then we are not following the truth. 1 John 4;2 " Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh is of God."
1 Cor 15;49 " And even as we have borne the image of the man of earth let us also bear the image of the man of heaven."
:thumbsup:
indeed....SON OF MAN[ALL IN ADAM] SON OF GOD[ALL IN CHRIST REVEALED
Quote from: Ross on August 10, 2011, 11:19:21 AM
As far as I can see man was made a little less than messengers, now some say that man was lowered from spirit to experience the earthy, I do not see anything in angels(messengers) that says they were "spirits" first or that angels[messengers] are spirits.
Man was formed and made from the dust of the ground and was given the power to breath and live, live the same living as all breathing creatures.
I reason that mankind thinks pretty much of himself, because he was given abilities that were different from the other beasts of the field. And man has invented many things to make him feel quite good about himself.
Amen!!!
I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me!!
Christ had water and blood flow from Him on the cross to state that both spirit and flesh died. This paid the price for every aspect of our being.
Christ was the first to be raised from the dead.
We will be like Christ.
If we deny that Christ came in the flesh then we are not following the truth. 1 John 4;2 " Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh is of God."
1 Cor 15;49 " And even as we have borne the image of the man of earth let us also bear the image of the man of heaven."
God said in Genesis that we will create man in His image. This is before he creates man from the dust of the ground.
Call this delusion, but I see it as believing the scriptures in orderly fashion.
Is believing that we are in Christ, also invented to make man feel good about ourselves?
What we are in Christ is much greater than what Genesis created us as. One, we have suffered with Christ.
Quote from: thinktank on August 10, 2011, 10:00:32 PM
Quote from: Ross on August 10, 2011, 11:19:21 AM
As far as I can see man was made a little less than messengers, now some say that man was lowered from spirit to experience the earthy, I do not see anything in angels(messengers) that says they were "spirits" first or that angels[messengers] are spirits.
Man was formed and made from the dust of the ground and was given the power to breath and live, live the same living as all breathing creatures.
I reason that mankind thinks pretty much of himself, because he was given abilities that were different from the other beasts of the field. And man has invented many things to make him feel quite good about himself.
Amen!!!
I have been crucified with Christ, it is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me!!
Christ had water and blood flow from Him on the cross to state that both spirit and flesh died. This paid the price for every aspect of our being.
Christ was the first to be raised from the dead.
We will be like Christ.
If we deny that Christ came in the flesh then we are not following the truth. 1 John 4;2 " Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh is of God."
1 Cor 15;49 " And even as we have borne the image of the man of earth let us also bear the image of the man of heaven."
God said in Genesis that we will create man in His image. This is before he creates man from the dust of the ground.
Call this delusion, but I see it as believing the scriptures in orderly fashion.
Is believing that we are in Christ, also invented to make man feel good about ourselves?
What we are in Christ is much greater than what Genesis created us as. One, we have suffered with Christ.
"God said in Genesis that we will create man in His image."
So we are what God looks like, right."This is before he creates man from the dust of the ground."
He formed man from........not creates
"Is believing that we are in Christ, also invented to make man feel good about ourselves?"
No.
"One, we have suffered with Christ."
We are suffering with Christ.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Gen 1:27)
God created man. The method He used was to form him out of the dust of the earth and breath the breath of life into him.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Gen 2:7)
Quote from: eaglesway on August 11, 2011, 08:53:53 AM
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Gen 1:27)
God created man. The method He used was to form him out of the dust of the earth and breath the breath of life into him.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(Gen 2:7)
So God
created man in his own image, in the image of God
created he him; male and female
created he them.
(Gen. 1:27) So I ask then we are the image of God? I believe that God in Gen. 1:27 is still creating man in.....
I do not accept that the method of Gen.2:7 was creating, the Lord God formed H3335 yâtsar probably identical with H3334
(through the squeezing into shape); (compare H3331);
to mould into a form; especially as a potter; figuratively to determine (that is, form a resolution): - X earthen,
fashion, form, frame, make (-r), potter, purpose.
No I suggest that formed man is quite different from creating man.
I don't see any difference really. Not when you get down to the crux. God CREATED everything and out of what he created, whether he formed, molded, made or whatever . .. it's still God who did it and we're still in his image. Why the sparring?
Quote from: Nathan on August 11, 2011, 04:54:47 PM
God CREATED everything and out of what he created, whether he formed, molded, made or whatever .
And — He created everything from Himself.
Quote from: Nathan on August 11, 2011, 04:54:47 PM
I don't see any difference really. Not when you get down to the crux. God CREATED everything and out of what he created, whether he formed, molded, made or whatever . .. it's still God who did it and we're still in his image. Why the sparring?
Because for the HS the difference was large enough to inspire two different Hebrew words.
One is spirit,
the other flesh,
of the same one man.
Am I any less accepted or righteous if I was created as opposed to being formed?
My only answer to that is that I believe that Gen.1:27 is still becoming( in Genesis 1 The Word is being SPOKE John1) and it is through Gen.2:7, when the Lord God formed) that He is preforming His plan and purpose. I say this because should God have created mankind in image and His likeness he failed pretty much unless of course what we see today in mankind is His image and likeness.
Peace :bigGrin:
Unless we are still in day 6 !
And why not?
Just that, if we're still in day six then God ain't finished yet!
He won't be finished until we have our glorified bodies. Then we shall be like him.
But, there are some good people in the world, even today.
Can find the verse but we are in day 7.
Firstly because Genesis says so.
Secondly because Jesus said so. Jesus healed on Sabbath (day 7). The Pharisees question Him on that. Jesus answered them with a question "Doesn't Father also heal on Sabbath"?
Meaning the correcting/training/teaching of mankind is healing and God is busy doing so on His Sabbath day that's over 6000 years long.
:2c:
Not.
Why?
Dont see it.
I'll give you eyes to see Micah! :laughing7:
ACVJohn 5
1 After these things there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the place pertaining to sheep, a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of those who are feeble, blind, lame, withered, waiting for the movement of the water.
4 For a heavenly agent went down at a certain time into the pool, and agitated the water. Therefore the first man who stepped in after the agitation of the water became well from whatever affliction he had.
5 And a certain man was there who was thirty-eight years in the weakness.
6 When Jesus saw this man laying down, and knew that he fares now a long time, he says to him, Do thou desire to become well?
7 The infirmed man answered him, Sir, I have no man so that when the water is agitated he might put me into the pool, but while I am coming another steps down before me.
8 Jesus says to him, Arise, take up thy bed and walk.
9 And straightaway the man became well, and took up his bed and walked. Now it was Sabbath on that day.
10 The Jews therefore said to the man who was cured, It is Sabbath. It is not permitted for thee to take up the bed.
11 He answered them, The man who made me well, that man said to me, Take up thy bed and walk.
12 Therefore they asked him, Who is the man who said to thee, Take up thy bed and walk?
13 But the man who was healed had not known who he is, for Jesus withdrew, a multitude being in the place.
14 After these things Jesus finds him in the temple, and said to him, Behold, thou have become well. Sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.
15 The man departed and reported to the Jews that Jesus is the man who made him well.
16 And because of this the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill him, because he did these things on a Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now and I work.
18 Because of this therefore the Jews sought even more to kill him, because not only did he relax the Sabbath, but also he called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.
19 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, except what he sees the Father doing. For whatever he may do, the Son also does these things in like manner.
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that he himself does. And he will show him works greater works than these, so that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises up the dead and makes alive, so also the Son makes alive whom he will.
Read everything for some context.
The red verses show Father works/heals on Sabbath. Right now.
The blue verse shows that was common knowledge because they seem to agree Father works on Sabbath and that Father is God and not Joseph.
:2c:
Jesus IS THE SABBATH! :grin:
Quote from: Nathan on August 12, 2011, 02:20:42 AM
Am I any less accepted or righteous if I was created as opposed to being formed?
Lol exactly! I think we are getting carried away with semantics here. God uses multiple words to describe many things, and a simple concordance study on the word created would certainly validate its own use in relationship to man and the kosmos in its entirety and in every form.