john 3:36

[cranny]

if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

[Seth]

God's wrath is described in Romans 1 as how God has turned people over to their own carnal minds to receive in themselves the penalty for their error. That's why the Bible says that Jesus shall be named Jesus (Jehovah saves) because he shall save his people from their SIN.

Romans 8 says that "to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Those who believe receive the Holy Spirit to become spiritually minded, and no longer slave (motivated by) to sin. That's why those who believe shall see life.

[Seth]

So, again, it's not about getting to heaven. We do have a promise of immortality to come, but that's not what God means when he says "life." By "life" he means knowledge of Christ, being in Christ, being saved from the carnal mind, being spiritually minded, being saved from sin.

[FreeAtLast]

if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

in another post I discussed that Yahshua words was unto the jewish people only--he himself said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

now taking this in consideration--He was speaking unto the jewish unbelievers and warning them that if they did not receive him as Messiah---that they would not see the Aionion Life---but be destroyed in the wrath----that fell in AD 70 and killed over 1 million unbelieving jewish people--destroyed their temple--destroyed their city

this is the wrath that the new testament talked about--it was against the jewish people and nation  IMO

it happened just as he said--they were destroyed and did not live to be in the new age as the old had passed away  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

in another post I discussed that Yahshua words was unto the jewish people only--he himself said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

now taking this in consideration--He was speaking unto the jewish unbelievers and warning them that if they did not receive him as Messiah---that they would not see the Aionion Life---but be destroyed in the wrath----that fell in AD 70 and killed over 1 million unbelieving jewish people--destroyed their temple--destroyed their city

this is the wrath that the new testament talked about--it was against the jewish people and nation  IMO

it happened just as he said--they were destroyed and did not live to be in the new age as the old had passed away  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

The statement in John 3:36 is to "all who hear it". The wrath of God is real and manifests in different ways. However, it does not last forever in "hell". God can raise up trying circumstance to rebuke the wicked in his way. He can deliver someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. He can suspend someone for a time in "the fire that cannot be quenched". He can unbind the unity that holds a people as a people and He can remove their "favor" and cause them, to be hated by their neighbors.

Any of these things are for the purpose of correction, eventually leading to repentance and reconciliation and restoration.

[Seth]

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

[FreeAtLast]

if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

in another post I discussed that Yahshua words was unto the jewish people only--he himself said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

now taking this in consideration--He was speaking unto the jewish unbelievers and warning them that if they did not receive him as Messiah---that they would not see the Aionion Life---but be destroyed in the wrath----that fell in AD 70 and killed over 1 million unbelieving jewish people--destroyed their temple--destroyed their city

this is the wrath that the new testament talked about--it was against the jewish people and nation  IMO

it happened just as he said--they were destroyed and did not live to be in the new age as the old had passed away  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

The statement in John 3:36 is to "all who hear it". The wrath of God is real and manifests in different ways. However, it does not last forever in "hell". God can raise up trying circumstance to rebuke the wicked in his way. He can deliver someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. He can suspend someone for a time in "the fire that cannot be quenched". He can unbind the unity that holds a people as a people and He can remove their "favor" and cause them, to be hated by their neighbors.

Any of these things are for the purpose of correction, eventually leading to repentance and reconciliation and restoration.

I see what you are saying


but from my perspective--Yahshua was talking to the unbelieving jews with that statement--for it was them who he came for in the flesh to begin with.


the statement Yahshua made was not TO all who hear it    imo

it is FOR all who hear it   imo

there is such a thing as  audience driven statements--meaning it is intended unto a specific audience

it is for all of us today to learn and grow by---but it was spoken specifically TO the unbelieving jews  imo :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[FreeAtLast]

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

his people---jewish people

from their sins--their transgressions of the law

Yahshua said I am sent for only the lost sheep of the house of Israel

[Seth]

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

his people---jewish people

from their sins--their transgressions of the law

Yahshua said I am sent for only the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Yes, and when they rejected, his people became the believers. When Jesus says that if they don't believe they don't have life, he is referring to himself. He is the life. He says that to them.

[FreeAtLast]

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

his people---jewish people

from their sins--their transgressions of the law

Yahshua said I am sent for only the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Yes, and when they rejected, his people became the believers. When Jesus says that if they don't believe they don't have life, he is referring to himself. He is the life. He says that to them.

yes I agree that the gentiles became of his fold at a later time

but the 4 gospels was not about the gentiles at all was about the jewish people   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Right, but that doesn't mean that when He talks about life he means.salvation from.70AD.

[Seth]

There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

[eaglesway]

The 4 gospels are not about the Jewish people. They are about Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God and His message to the Jews and the Gentiles- the entire world. They are records written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit decades after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The idea that Jesus spent 3 1/2 years preparing to take the gospel to the world at large for the purpose of reconciling every creature under heaven- with words that were meant, or had their primary meanings only to, the Jews around Jerusalem and Galilee lacks credibility.

Also, the issue at hand is what the words mean today, to the ones who "hear". You, out of one side of your mouth say the scriptures are For all but To the Jews- but then you use the supposition that they were To the jews to mitigate and define their meaning to ALL.

You can't have that both ways.

[FreeAtLast]

There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

he was directly talking to the jewish unbelievers--and it was pertaining unto them and them only.

when he saith that he who believes me shall NEVER die---what do you think that means ???

that word  NEVER is the same greek and Hebrew word that forever and everlasting has behind it

Olam and Aion-  age lasting--not eternal

so look at it from this perspective now and tell me what the life they were going to have   :dsunny: :dsunny:

[FreeAtLast]

The 4 gospels are not about the Jewish people. They are about Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God and His message to the Jews and the Gentiles- the entire world. They are records written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit decades after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The idea that Jesus spent 3 1/2 years preparing to take the gospel to the world at large for the purpose of reconciling every creature under heaven- with words that were meant, or had their primary meanings only to, the Jews around Jerusalem and Galilee lacks credibility.

Also, the issue at hand is what the words mean today, to the ones who "hear". You, out of one side of your mouth say the scriptures are For all but To the Jews- but then you use the supposition that they were To the jews to mitigate and define their meaning to ALL.

You can't have that both ways.

I must disagree with you ---because of Yahshua's own words

he was not sent unto the gentiles(therefore his message and words in the 4 gospels was not TO the gentiles but jews)

he even told the woman at the well that Salvation was of the JEWS

we do agree that gentiles eventually came in and it was for them also at that particular time

but until that time arose--it was only for the jews--they rejected--Yah gave it unto the gentiles to provoke the jews to jealously

Salvation was not even offered to the gentiles in the context of the 4 gospels--but starting in acts and so on it was given unto them. :dsunny: :dsunny:

[Seth]

There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

he was directly talking to the jewish unbelievers--and it was pertaining unto them and them only.

I agree with the first part, but not the second part. And even if the second part was true, that STILL wouldn't mean that he was referring to 70AD with regard to "life." Jesus said "I AM THE LIFE."

So those who do not believe, do not have Christ.

When he says "he who believes in me shall not die unto the age" he is referring to himself as the life, not 70AD. He is talking about the promise of "aionios zoe" the life of the age (to which immortality will be added). "I am the resurrection and the life, those who believe in me shall not be dying in the age." He did not say WHICH age, because the word "aion" is from "olam" which means "into the horizon."

SOME of the people listening to him DID believe. In fact many of the Pharisees converted after his death. So everything he preached was for them who would believe. So, the message was preached to the Jews but it wasn't about 70AD exclusively.

[FreeAtLast]

There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

he was directly talking to the jewish unbelievers--and it was pertaining unto them and them only.

I agree with the first part, but not the second part. And even if the second part was true, that STILL wouldn't mean that he was referring to 70AD with regard to "life." Jesus said "I AM THE LIFE."

So those who do not believe, do not have Christ.

When he says "he who believes in me shall not die unto the age" he is referring to himself as the life, not 70AD. He is talking about the promise of "aionios zoe" the life of the age (to which immortality will be added). "I am the resurrection and the life, those who believe in me shall not be dying in the age." He did not say WHICH age, because the word "aion" is from "olam" which means "into the horizon."

SOME of the people listening to him DID believe. In fact many of the Pharisees converted after his death. So everything he preached was for them who would believe. So, the message was preached to the Jews but it wasn't about 70AD exclusively.

your comment-- those who believe in me shall not be dying in the age



:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

did the unbelievers live at the end of that age into the new age which we are in today---no--the unbelieving jews died at 70 ad--they did not have aion life(age abiding)

[Seth]

did the unbelievers live at the end of that age into the new age which we are in today---no--the unbelieving jews died at 70 ad--they did not have aion life(age abiding)

The Bible defines "aionios life" as being "in Christ" not "surviving 70AD."

So when he speaks about "aion" there, he is talking about their lives all in the sense of "olam" shall not be dying "unto the horizon."

In context, He is responding to the woman who was looking forward to the resurrection. Jesus is saying I AM the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me shall not be dying "into the horizon" all the way to the end of their physical life. That's because they will have Jesus within them.

[FreeAtLast]

did the unbelievers live at the end of that age into the new age which we are in today---no--the unbelieving jews died at 70 ad--they did not have aion life(age abiding)

The Bible defines "aionios life" as being "in Christ" not "surviving 70AD."

So when he speaks about "aion" there, he is talking about their lives all in the sense of "olam" shall not be dying "unto the horizon."

In context, He is responding to the woman who was looking forward to the resurrection. Jesus is saying I AM the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me shall not be dying "into the horizon" all the way to the end of their physical life. That's because they will have Jesus within them.

I agree that aion life was  Yahshua

the unbelieving jewish people did not have this life--they did not abide through the age as those did with aion life who were still physically alive when it transpired

im coming from the perspective of Soul Death--when I comment on this--I don't believe that there was holding places for the ones who were passed on--

I believe that when a person died physically that there Soul also died--non existence ---until the resurrection

So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

they did flee the city and go into the mountains at ad 70--just like the scripture said for them to do--they had aion life--which was Yahshua

the dead at that time had NO life--not even peter when he died-----until the resurrection   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

That's not really the ONLY possible answer. The other possibility is that Jesus was talking about the aion of each person's life, not the aion of the Mosaic age.

[FreeAtLast]

So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

That's not really the ONLY possible answer. The other possibility is that Jesus was talking about the aion of each person's life, not the aion of the Mosaic age.

however you want to see it.

but I see it as that age they were currently in  and the Salvation as being delievered from the wrath that fell at ad 70  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Exactly. It's up for interpretation. If Jesus had said "shall not be dying in the year 70AD" then there you go. But I'll go with the interpretation that closely matches the very explicit definitions of "aionios zoe" that are there in the Bible.

[FreeAtLast]

So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

That's not really the ONLY possible answer. The other possibility is that Jesus was talking about the aion of each person's life, not the aion of the Mosaic age.

also as far as UR goes(which I do believe) Preterist view goes hand in hand with UR like no other end time teaching

take both of these together and it becomes much more understandable   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I have a more "is was and will be" approach to the word of God. I find that provides a much fuller understanding.

[FreeAtLast]

I have a more "is was and will be" approach to the word of God. I find that provides a much fuller understanding.

I have a all things fulfilled approach myself   :dsunny: :dsunny: