john 3:36

[sheila]

7  groups of christians in literal Babylonia boundaries at present. coptic,Maronites,Greek orthodx,protestants

  Melkites, Armenian and Roman catholic.  why did we hear in faith 'come out of her my people' and they

did not? Literal/spiritual........

   in reality then..we are all living on a cleansed new earth. no more curse.no death,mourning,tears..the former

things have passed away........because the wrath of God come on the jews back then..........


   signs in heaven and earth.....those dwellingin heaven rejoice when satan is cast down/Babylon

destroyed[spiritually]..but woe to those who dwell on the earth.[literal]

[Seth]

What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

[FreeAtLast]

What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

I understand your dilemma --I also had somewhat of the same when I first begin seeing the preterist view

the only thing that is left for us today---is to die in this flesh and go on unto Yah--for our judgement

there is no more Soul DEATH any longer--I also believe the resurrection has already occurred

Yahshua has defeated that last enemy Paul spoke about--DEATH

after the resurrection--DEATH was swallowed up in Victory---men only laid down the flesh after the resurrection--their Soul went on to Yah  and was judged

that's what is awaiting us---Judgement according to our deeds here in the flesh---we have already been saved from DEATH through Yahshua  :dsunny:

[sheila]

 then how can you say the judgements[famine/plague/war/pestilence] in Revelation do not apply?

[FreeAtLast]

then how can you say the judgements[famine/plague/war/pestilence] in Revelation do not apply?

they already came to pass in the time of the new testament

there will always be those in the world as long as it stands

but those particular ones was for the new testament age the period of the 7 churches  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

I understand your dilemma --I also had somewhat of the same when I first begin seeing the preterist view

the only thing that is left for us today---is to die in this flesh and go on unto Yah--for our judgement

there is no more Soul DEATH any longer--I also believe the resurrection has already occurred

Yahshua has defeated that last enemy Paul spoke about--DEATH

after the resurrection--DEATH was swallowed up in Victory---men only laid down the flesh after the resurrection--their Soul went on to Yah  and was judged

that's what is awaiting us---Judgement according to our deeds here in the flesh---we have already been saved from DEATH through Yahshua  :dsunny:

It's not a dilemma for me. It's a dilemma I am trying to see if your doctrine of preterism can solve. Since I believe past fulfillment is a valid approach, along with present and future, I am trying to see what the common ground is that you and I have on this.

The problem I see is that you base the "judgment according to our deeds" on scriptures that were only written TO that church, just like with Revelation. Revelation was written to those seven churches. Romans was written to the Romans.

Therefore, it would follow that if Paul's prophecy about judgment according to our deeds can be applied to future generations, so also the book of Revelation.

[FreeAtLast]

then how can you say the judgements[famine/plague/war/pestilence] in Revelation do not apply?

I also believe that just as the new testament writers proclaimed how those things of their forefather's in the old testament--when they disobeyed and that which came upon them in every instance was examples unto the new testament church to not fall after the same manner

also we see what occurred in the new testament and what befell them- what happened to the unbelieving jews--there city--their temple

the world today as a whole has that same example for them today that they not fall after the same example of the new testament unbelievers

though not recorded in the bible imo--- the same will befall all men on this planet someday just like it was on the unbelieving jews--because of their ungodliness and their unbelief

we have the example not to follow just as the new testament church had ---Judgement is coming to this planet--I believe it is just around the corner.

but I don't relate that to what was for the new testament age---written unto them. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[FreeAtLast]

What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

I understand your dilemma --I also had somewhat of the same when I first begin seeing the preterist view

the only thing that is left for us today---is to die in this flesh and go on unto Yah--for our judgement

there is no more Soul DEATH any longer--I also believe the resurrection has already occurred

Yahshua has defeated that last enemy Paul spoke about--DEATH

after the resurrection--DEATH was swallowed up in Victory---men only laid down the flesh after the resurrection--their Soul went on to Yah  and was judged

that's what is awaiting us---Judgement according to our deeds here in the flesh---we have already been saved from DEATH through Yahshua  :dsunny:

It's not a dilemma for me. It's a dilemma I am trying to see if your doctrine of preterism can solve. Since I believe past fulfillment is a valid approach, along with present and future, I am trying to see what the common ground is that you and I have on this.

The problem I see is that you base the "judgment according to our deeds" on scriptures that were only written TO that church, just like with Revelation. Revelation was written to those seven churches. Romans was written to the Romans.

Therefore, it would follow that if Paul's prophecy about judgment according to our deeds can be applied to future generations, so also the book of Revelation.

im not saying judgement cant come again on the whole planet--but I am saying that that in revelations was for that time and age.

I just put up a post about it

and the like--just as they were judged--we also shall be judged after we lay down this flesh

[Seth]

though not recorded in the bible imo--- the same will befall all men on this planet someday just like it was on the unbelieving jews--because of their ungodliness and their unbelief

Well, it's maybe just a different way of seeing things. But if the same will befall all men on this planet someday....then it WAS recorded in the Bible and can be applied Biblically.

[FreeAtLast]

though not recorded in the bible imo--- the same will befall all men on this planet someday just like it was on the unbelieving jews--because of their ungodliness and their unbelief

Well, it's maybe just a different way of seeing things. But if the same will befall all men on this planet someday....then it WAS recorded in the Bible and can be applied Biblically.

like I said the vials were already done--the trumps have already blown--the things of revelations has already occurred to the new testament age

it cant be applied to our time--But we can say that judgement will come to this planet--because of unbelief and ungodliness

it was unto the jewish unbelievers in the new testament---next it will be on the entire planet--gentiles

jews were first given the oracles of Yah--they mishandled them--they were judged
Gentiles then were given them--today the same example of unbelief is coming from the unbelieving gentiles as it did from the unbelieveing jews

Gentiles--the rest of all the nations on the planet---will suffer  judgement as the jews did for their transgressions


but here again--that in the new testament happened unto the unbelieving jews--already fulfilled

all things of the law and prophets are fulfilled--the new testament is fulfilled---done    :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I would agree that they are fulfilled, but I also say that they are being fulfilled, and just like the church of old is admonished and encouraged by Revelation, so also with the church of new. The overcomer is promised things in the book of Revelation and by Paul in his writings, and those promises carry over to the recent church as well. And, so it will go until death is abolished. Death is not yet abolished, and I believe the "second death" still has application to day as a symbol which is being fulfilled today, even if the initial fulfillment was for the early church.

Revelation is a symbolic book. Its symbols carry from generation to generation.

[FreeAtLast]

I would agree that they are fulfilled, but I also say that they are being fulfilled, and just like the church of old is admonished and encouraged by Revelation, so also with the church of new. The overcomer is promised things in the book of Revelation and by Paul in his writings, and those promises carry over to the recent church as well. And, so it will go until death is abolished. Death is not yet abolished, and I believe the "second death" still has application to day as a symbol which is being fulfilled today, even if the initial fulfillment was for the early church.

Revelation is a symbolic book. Its symbols carry from generation to generation.

just depends on what you believe Death is  :dsunny: :dsunny:

I can agree that some of the things carry over such as--being judged,see Yahshua as he is,those kinda things  yes I agree

but  things like Yahshua coming(already happened--not gonna happen again)Resurrection(already happened--no need of a resurrection today)

trumps have blown(not gonna blow again)vials have been done(not gonna be done again)  and so forth  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

For one thing we know that the book of Revelation incorporates much imagery from the Old Testament. I see a strong correlation here with the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

So when I compare to the Lake of Fire I see a striking resemblance:

Revelation
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever (unto the age of the age): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Fire, smoke rising, torment, devouring. It's all there. And there are many more Old Testament scriptures that deal with sin itself as being like a fire and using imagery present in Revelation 14 and 20.

Now, when I get to the end of Revelation I see a city dressed up as a Bride. The Bride is the church. The church is positioned above a mountain peak and also below heaven, as if to say that though the church is in the earth, they are also in a high position with God.

I see this Bride still in operation, for John says "The Spirit and the Bride say, come and drink the water of life freely." Everyone will eventually come out of (second) death and into the Bride to drink that symbolic water. But this has been true in the past, it's true now, and that gospel will be preached until, as Paul said "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." As long as the carnal mind exists, death is not destroyed. As Paul said, when the end comes death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

The Bride is still saying "come drink the water of life freely." That's the Gospel being preached. It's still being preached today. It will be preached tomorrow, and all the way unto that end when death is destroyed.

I see a past, present and future fulfillment of all these symbols.

[FreeAtLast]

For one thing we know that the book of Revelation incorporates much imagery from the Old Testament. I see a strong correlation here with the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

So when I compare to the Lake of Fire I see a striking resemblance:

Revelation




10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever (unto the age of the age): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Fire, smoke rising, torment, devouring. It's all there. And there are many more Old Testament scriptures that deal with sin itself as being like a fire and using imagery present in Revelation 14 and 20.

Now, when I get to the end of Revelation I see a city dressed up as a Bride. The Bride is the church. The church is positioned above a mountain peak and also below heaven, as if to say that though the church is in the earth, they are also in a high position with God.

I see this Bride still in operation, for John says "The Spirit and the Bride say, come and drink the water of life freely." Everyone will eventually come out of (second) death and into the Bride to drink that symbolic water. But this has been true in the past, it's true now, and that gospel will be preached until, as Paul said "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." As long as the carnal mind exists, death is not destroyed. As Paul said, when the end comes death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

The Bride is still saying "come drink the water of life freely." That's the Gospel being preached. It's still being preached today. It will be preached tomorrow, and all the way unto that end when death is destroyed.

I see a past, present and future fulfillment of all these symbols.

me and you differ on what DEATH means then---when paul said DEATH would be swallowed up in victory.

I believe that death that was to be destroyed was actually accomplished at the resurrection--which I believe has occurred .

the Holy and Righteous One(Yahshua)which had no sin---fulfilled the law--died for all mankind--the law had no authority over him--no dominion
that verdict from the law--DEATH--could not hold  the Holy One down--it had no power over him

Yahshua arose and when he returned at ad 70  imo  he set the captives free!!!  in adam all had DEATH--in Yahshua all have LIFE

DEATH has been destroyed--

I do agree that the 2nd death--the lake of fire--will burn the carnality,wickedness,impurities,unbelief---and so on--from every person--that's part of the judgement

and I believe it is going on now with those who are already there in it---and is waiting for those today who shall enter  :dsunny: :dsunny:

[Seth]

Yahshua arose and when he returned at ad 70  imo  he set the captives free!!!  in adam all had DEATH--in Yahshua all have LIFE

DEATH has been destroyed--

I do agree that the 2nd death--the lake of fire--will burn the carnality,wickedness,impurities,unbelief---and so on--from every person--that's part of the judgement

To be carnally minded is death. But to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Therefore, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, until there is no more carnal mind.

[Seth]

1 Corthinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

It's interesting Paul's take on what it means to be alive. It's not just about resurrection. It's about being "in Christ." That's how man is made alive.

So when you consider 70AD, were there people in Jerusalem who were believers? Yes. What were they if not "in Christ?" Therefore, THEY WERE ALREADY MADE ALIVE before they were saved from 70AD. Therefore, for them, death in the carnal mind was already destroyed, and they looked forward to the final completion when they would receive bodies in heaven. But for the whole world, not everyone is made alive in Christ yet. They must bend their knees and confess with their mouths.

This is the context of Paul's prophecy about death being destroyed. It has to do with people being "made alive in Christ."

[FreeAtLast]

Yahshua arose and when he returned at ad 70  imo  he set the captives free!!!  in adam all had DEATH--in Yahshua all have LIFE

DEATH has been destroyed--

I do agree that the 2nd death--the lake of fire--will burn the carnality,wickedness,impurities,unbelief---and so on--from every person--that's part of the judgement

To be carnally minded is death. But to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Therefore, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, until there is no more carnal mind.

1st Corinthians 15:54-57

tells you plainly the Death and what it is corresponding unto

O GRAVE where is thy sting
O GRAVE where is thy victory

sting of death is Sin
strength of sin is the law

Yahshua fulfilled the law--did not sin

this is talking about the resurrection from DEATH---Soul death  in context

Just as the grave could not hold Yahshua--when Yahshua returned and called them forth--DEATH was destroyed and could no longer hold them also


if you correspond the death and life  differences--then I suggest going back to the old testament--this is where paul is stating what you are talking about from

those who kept his commandments--what followed them---Blessings,Good,LIFE
those who kept not his commandments-what followed them--Cursings,Evil,DEATH

I believe he is referring in what you are talking about with the Aion life and Aion death---those who live carnally and not  through faith had nothing to look forward to but Death of the aion,but those on the other hand---Life of the Aion

ad 70 comes again---death of the Aion for those who lived such  and Life of the Aion for those who lived such  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

this is talking about the resurrection from DEATH

The grave doesn't just have to do with physical death. Paul did talk about resurrection:

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

That's all about life and death and being made alive "in Christ." This is Paul's context with 1 Cor 15. Resurrection isn't just about literal death. It's about being made alive in Christ. The believers in 70AD were made alive in Christ already.

[FreeAtLast]

1 Corthinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

It's interesting Paul's take on what it means to be alive. It's not just about resurrection. It's about being "in Christ." That's how man is made alive.

So when you consider 70AD, were there people in Jerusalem who were believers? Yes. What were they if not "in Christ?" Therefore, THEY WERE ALREADY MADE ALIVE before they were saved from 70AD. Therefore, for them, death in the carnal mind was already destroyed, and they looked forward to the final completion when they would receive bodies in heaven. But for the whole world, not everyone is made alive in Christ yet. They must bend their knees and confess with their mouths.

This is the context of Paul's prophecy about death being destroyed. It has to do with people being "made alive in Christ."

you are already in Christ---all mankind is in Christ
do you think we are still in adam---no

mankind didn't do anything to be in adam--they were placed there by Yah---through 1 man--Adam
mankind does nothing to be in Christ--they are placed there by Yah--through 1 man--Yahshua

you see --everyone agrees that man did nothing to be in adam and have death passed unto them
but men has a problem and thinks we have to do something or even believe to be in Yahshua---no

through 1 man-- DEATH(soul death) passed upon all
through 1 man---LIFE (resurrection from the soul death)passed upon ALL men


all mankind is saved from that DEATH through Yahshua

and it goes on to say ALL shall(future)be made Righteous

this is the ongoing process now--making ALL Righteous---for ALL have already been delivered from DEATH   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

all mankind is saved from that DEATH through Yahshua

and it goes on to say ALL shall(future)be made Righteous

this is the ongoing process now--making ALL Righteous---for ALL have already been delivered from DEATH   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

[Seth]

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

[FreeAtLast]

all mankind is saved from that DEATH through Yahshua

and it goes on to say ALL shall(future)be made Righteous

this is the ongoing process now--making ALL Righteous---for ALL have already been delivered from DEATH   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

aion death and aion life   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[FreeAtLast]

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

so  Yah    did put all mankind in adam--even though they had not sinned after adam
then Yah came back and only puts them in Yahshua that does something to earn it ??

is this what you believe  ??

the ALL in both cases are the same group of people there

[Seth]

Being dead in Adam means to have the death that Adam brought into the world: the carnal mind. Death. Everyone is born with a carnal mind, which is death. As they come into Christ they are delivered from the carnal mind as Romans 6 states.

[FreeAtLast]

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

so  Yah    did put all mankind in adam--even though they had not sinned after adam
then Yah came back and only puts them in Yahshua that does something to earn it ??

is this what you believe  ??

the ALL in both cases are the same group of people there

let me rephrase my comment then

Through 1 man---DEATH
Through 1 man--LIFE

though they may not be --in Christ--they are still the ALL through 1 man--Yahshua--they are gonna be resurrected from the dead--and be made righteous
:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: