Tentmaker Forum

if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

God's wrath is described in Romans 1 as how God has turned people over to their own carnal minds to receive in themselves the penalty for their error. That's why the Bible says that Jesus shall be named Jesus (Jehovah saves) because he shall save his people from their SIN.

Romans 8 says that "to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." Those who believe receive the Holy Spirit to become spiritually minded, and no longer slave (motivated by) to sin. That's why those who believe shall see life.

So, again, it's not about getting to heaven. We do have a promise of immortality to come, but that's not what God means when he says "life." By "life" he means knowledge of Christ, being in Christ, being saved from the carnal mind, being spiritually minded, being saved from sin.

Quote from: cranny on August 28, 2014, 06:49:25 PM
if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

in another post I discussed that Yahshua words was unto the jewish people only--he himself said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

now taking this in consideration--He was speaking unto the jewish unbelievers and warning them that if they did not receive him as Messiah---that they would not see the Aionion Life---but be destroyed in the wrath----that fell in AD 70 and killed over 1 million unbelieving jewish people--destroyed their temple--destroyed their city

this is the wrath that the new testament talked about--it was against the jewish people and nation  IMO

it happened just as he said--they were destroyed and did not live to be in the new age as the old had passed away  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 07:24:23 PM

Quote from: cranny on August 28, 2014, 06:49:25 PM
if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

in another post I discussed that Yahshua words was unto the jewish people only--he himself said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

now taking this in consideration--He was speaking unto the jewish unbelievers and warning them that if they did not receive him as Messiah---that they would not see the Aionion Life---but be destroyed in the wrath----that fell in AD 70 and killed over 1 million unbelieving jewish people--destroyed their temple--destroyed their city

this is the wrath that the new testament talked about--it was against the jewish people and nation  IMO

it happened just as he said--they were destroyed and did not live to be in the new age as the old had passed away  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

The statement in John 3:36 is to "all who hear it". The wrath of God is real and manifests in different ways. However, it does not last forever in "hell". God can raise up trying circumstance to rebuke the wicked in his way. He can deliver someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. He can suspend someone for a time in "the fire that cannot be quenched". He can unbind the unity that holds a people as a people and He can remove their "favor" and cause them, to be hated by their neighbors.

Any of these things are for the purpose of correction, eventually leading to repentance and reconciliation and restoration.

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

Quote from: eaglesway on August 28, 2014, 08:24:22 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 07:24:23 PM

Quote from: cranny on August 28, 2014, 06:49:25 PM
if everyone is going to heaven then explain john3:36 where it says that whoever does not believe shall not see life but god's wrath abides on him?

in another post I discussed that Yahshua words was unto the jewish people only--he himself said that he was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

now taking this in consideration--He was speaking unto the jewish unbelievers and warning them that if they did not receive him as Messiah---that they would not see the Aionion Life---but be destroyed in the wrath----that fell in AD 70 and killed over 1 million unbelieving jewish people--destroyed their temple--destroyed their city

this is the wrath that the new testament talked about--it was against the jewish people and nation  IMO

it happened just as he said--they were destroyed and did not live to be in the new age as the old had passed away  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

The statement in John 3:36 is to "all who hear it". The wrath of God is real and manifests in different ways. However, it does not last forever in "hell". God can raise up trying circumstance to rebuke the wicked in his way. He can deliver someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. He can suspend someone for a time in "the fire that cannot be quenched". He can unbind the unity that holds a people as a people and He can remove their "favor" and cause them, to be hated by their neighbors.

Any of these things are for the purpose of correction, eventually leading to repentance and reconciliation and restoration.

I see what you are saying


but from my perspective--Yahshua was talking to the unbelieving jews with that statement--for it was them who he came for in the flesh to begin with.


the statement Yahshua made was not TO all who hear it    imo

it is FOR all who hear it   imo

there is such a thing as  audience driven statements--meaning it is intended unto a specific audience

it is for all of us today to learn and grow by---but it was spoken specifically TO the unbelieving jews  imo :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 08:44:47 PM

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

his people---jewish people

from their sins--their transgressions of the law

Yahshua said I am sent for only the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 08:50:49 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 08:44:47 PM

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

his people---jewish people

from their sins--their transgressions of the law

Yahshua said I am sent for only the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Yes, and when they rejected, his people became the believers. When Jesus says that if they don't believe they don't have life, he is referring to himself. He is the life. He says that to them.

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 08:52:29 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 08:50:49 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 08:44:47 PM

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from (70AD?) their sins.

The very fact that Romans 1 describes God's wrath as being turned over to sin, and that those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on him, and how that Paul says we are to be saved from wrath by him Romans 5:9, when I put that all together, it shows me that Christ's words go far beyond 70AD.

his people---jewish people

from their sins--their transgressions of the law

Yahshua said I am sent for only the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Yes, and when they rejected, his people became the believers. When Jesus says that if they don't believe they don't have life, he is referring to himself. He is the life. He says that to them.

yes I agree that the gentiles became of his fold at a later time

but the 4 gospels was not about the gentiles at all was about the jewish people   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Right, but that doesn't mean that when He talks about life he means.salvation from.70AD.

There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

The 4 gospels are not about the Jewish people. They are about Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God and His message to the Jews and the Gentiles- the entire world. They are records written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit decades after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The idea that Jesus spent 3 1/2 years preparing to take the gospel to the world at large for the purpose of reconciling every creature under heaven- with words that were meant, or had their primary meanings only to, the Jews around Jerusalem and Galilee lacks credibility.

Also, the issue at hand is what the words mean today, to the ones who "hear". You, out of one side of your mouth say the scriptures are For all but To the Jews- but then you use the supposition that they were To the jews to mitigate and define their meaning to ALL.

You can't have that both ways.

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 09:01:40 PM
There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

he was directly talking to the jewish unbelievers--and it was pertaining unto them and them only.

when he saith that he who believes me shall NEVER die---what do you think that means ???

that word  NEVER is the same greek and Hebrew word that forever and everlasting has behind it

Olam and Aion-  age lasting--not eternal

so look at it from this perspective now and tell me what the life they were going to have   :dsunny: :dsunny:

Quote from: eaglesway on August 28, 2014, 09:04:11 PM
The 4 gospels are not about the Jewish people. They are about Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God and His message to the Jews and the Gentiles- the entire world. They are records written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit decades after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The idea that Jesus spent 3 1/2 years preparing to take the gospel to the world at large for the purpose of reconciling every creature under heaven- with words that were meant, or had their primary meanings only to, the Jews around Jerusalem and Galilee lacks credibility.

Also, the issue at hand is what the words mean today, to the ones who "hear". You, out of one side of your mouth say the scriptures are For all but To the Jews- but then you use the supposition that they were To the jews to mitigate and define their meaning to ALL.

You can't have that both ways.

I must disagree with you ---because of Yahshua's own words

he was not sent unto the gentiles(therefore his message and words in the 4 gospels was not TO the gentiles but jews)

he even told the woman at the well that Salvation was of the JEWS

we do agree that gentiles eventually came in and it was for them also at that particular time

but until that time arose--it was only for the jews--they rejected--Yah gave it unto the gentiles to provoke the jews to jealously

Salvation was not even offered to the gentiles in the context of the 4 gospels--but starting in acts and so on it was given unto them. :dsunny: :dsunny:

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 09:06:31 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 09:01:40 PM
There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

he was directly talking to the jewish unbelievers--and it was pertaining unto them and them only.

I agree with the first part, but not the second part. And even if the second part was true, that STILL wouldn't mean that he was referring to 70AD with regard to "life." Jesus said "I AM THE LIFE."

So those who do not believe, do not have Christ.

When he says "he who believes in me shall not die unto the age" he is referring to himself as the life, not 70AD. He is talking about the promise of "aionios zoe" the life of the age (to which immortality will be added). "I am the resurrection and the life, those who believe in me shall not be dying in the age." He did not say WHICH age, because the word "aion" is from "olam" which means "into the horizon."

SOME of the people listening to him DID believe. In fact many of the Pharisees converted after his death. So everything he preached was for them who would believe. So, the message was preached to the Jews but it wasn't about 70AD exclusively.

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 09:11:45 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 09:06:31 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 09:01:40 PM
There seems to be an assumption that because Jesus was talking to Israel according to the flesh, that everything he was talking about with regards to wrath and life are about 70AD. That doesn't follow by necessity.

he was directly talking to the jewish unbelievers--and it was pertaining unto them and them only.

I agree with the first part, but not the second part. And even if the second part was true, that STILL wouldn't mean that he was referring to 70AD with regard to "life." Jesus said "I AM THE LIFE."

So those who do not believe, do not have Christ.

When he says "he who believes in me shall not die unto the age" he is referring to himself as the life, not 70AD. He is talking about the promise of "aionios zoe" the life of the age (to which immortality will be added). "I am the resurrection and the life, those who believe in me shall not be dying in the age." He did not say WHICH age, because the word "aion" is from "olam" which means "into the horizon."

SOME of the people listening to him DID believe. In fact many of the Pharisees converted after his death. So everything he preached was for them who would believe. So, the message was preached to the Jews but it wasn't about 70AD exclusively.

your comment-- those who believe in me shall not be dying in the age



:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

did the unbelievers live at the end of that age into the new age which we are in today---no--the unbelieving jews died at 70 ad--they did not have aion life(age abiding)

Quotedid the unbelievers live at the end of that age into the new age which we are in today---no--the unbelieving jews died at 70 ad--they did not have aion life(age abiding)

The Bible defines "aionios life" as being "in Christ" not "surviving 70AD."

So when he speaks about "aion" there, he is talking about their lives all in the sense of "olam" shall not be dying "unto the horizon."

In context, He is responding to the woman who was looking forward to the resurrection. Jesus is saying I AM the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me shall not be dying "into the horizon" all the way to the end of their physical life. That's because they will have Jesus within them.

Quote from: Seth on August 28, 2014, 09:38:26 PM

Quotedid the unbelievers live at the end of that age into the new age which we are in today---no--the unbelieving jews died at 70 ad--they did not have aion life(age abiding)

The Bible defines "aionios life" as being "in Christ" not "surviving 70AD."

So when he speaks about "aion" there, he is talking about their lives all in the sense of "olam" shall not be dying "unto the horizon."

In context, He is responding to the woman who was looking forward to the resurrection. Jesus is saying I AM the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me shall not be dying "into the horizon" all the way to the end of their physical life. That's because they will have Jesus within them.

I agree that aion life was  Yahshua

the unbelieving jewish people did not have this life--they did not abide through the age as those did with aion life who were still physically alive when it transpired

im coming from the perspective of Soul Death--when I comment on this--I don't believe that there was holding places for the ones who were passed on--

I believe that when a person died physically that there Soul also died--non existence ---until the resurrection

So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

they did flee the city and go into the mountains at ad 70--just like the scripture said for them to do--they had aion life--which was Yahshua

the dead at that time had NO life--not even peter when he died-----until the resurrection   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 09:47:47 PM
So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

That's not really the ONLY possible answer. The other possibility is that Jesus was talking about the aion of each person's life, not the aion of the Mosaic age.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 06:51:59 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 09:47:47 PM
So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

That's not really the ONLY possible answer. The other possibility is that Jesus was talking about the aion of each person's life, not the aion of the Mosaic age.

however you want to see it.

but I see it as that age they were currently in  and the Salvation as being delievered from the wrath that fell at ad 70  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Exactly. It's up for interpretation. If Jesus had said "shall not be dying in the year 70AD" then there you go. But I'll go with the interpretation that closely matches the very explicit definitions of "aionios zoe" that are there in the Bible.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 06:51:59 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 28, 2014, 09:47:47 PM
So from this point of view--when yahshua spoke that--they still died physically and Soul death---so the only other possible answer  to the never die--is not dieing of the age---meaning not being destroyed but having Salvation

That's not really the ONLY possible answer. The other possibility is that Jesus was talking about the aion of each person's life, not the aion of the Mosaic age.

also as far as UR goes(which I do believe) Preterist view goes hand in hand with UR like no other end time teaching

take both of these together and it becomes much more understandable   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I have a more "is was and will be" approach to the word of God. I find that provides a much fuller understanding.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 07:01:29 PM
I have a more "is was and will be" approach to the word of God. I find that provides a much fuller understanding.

I have a all things fulfilled approach myself   :dsunny: :dsunny:

I know. That's what preterism is by definition.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 07:04:52 PM
I know. That's what preterism is by definition.

don't misunderstand me though--I do not nec. agree with everything that is contained in Full preterism either--but all fulfilled--yes

When I look in the Bible, I notice something that I call "layered fulfillment."

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
When I look in the Bible, I notice something that I call "layered fulfillment."

one thing is for sure--we can only see as far as the light leadeth us   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

well,judgement begins with the house of the Lord...and I can see how judgement came on the unbelieving jews.

  and they died in the 'wrath' that came upon Jerusalem/Israel...but Jesus showed the believers how to escape

  the wrath/judgement...and the went to Pella......

   to bring my salvation unto all the ends of the earth/gentiles bespeaks of much more.......

  and John in the revelation was told to eat the scroll and  that he must prophesy again...and really..with all

  the killing of christians right now...it seems the call ..to come out of babylon my people..would have been

very timely[for if you look ata map of the land of Babylons reign  it is smack dab where all this is ocurring]

........what if....the people it was originally addressed to[that word] heeded it not...but the gentiles heeded

  it? put faith in it.............then this is true  ALSO. rOMANS 9;30 WHAT THEN SHALL WE SAY? THE GENTILES

WHO DID NOT PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS HAVE OBTAINED IT..A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS OF FAITH......

   BUT iSRAEL WHO PURSUED A LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS HATH NOT OBTAINED IT,WHY NOT,BECAUSE YE

  PURSUED IT NOT BY FAITH,BUT BY WORKS.

 rEV 1;4 TO THE 7 CHURCHES IN ASIA.............

Quote from: sheila on August 29, 2014, 07:25:13 PM
well,judgement begins with the house of the Lord...and I can see how judgement came on the unbelieving jews.

  and they died in the 'wrath' that came upon Jerusalem/Israel...but Jesus showed the believers how to escape

  the wrath/judgement...and the went to Pella......

   to bring my salvation unto all the ends of the earth/gentiles bespeaks of much more.......

  and John in the revelation was told to eat the scroll and  that he must prophesy again...and really..with all

  the killing of christians right now...it seems the call ..to come out of babylon my people..would have been

very timely[for if you look ata map of the land of Babylons reign  it is smack dab where all this is ocurring]

........what if....the people it was originally addressed to[that word] heeded it not...but the gentiles heeded

  it? put faith in it.............then this is true  ALSO. rOMANS 9;30 WHAT THEN SHALL WE SAY? THE GENTILES

WHO DID NOT PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS HAVE OBTAINED IT..A RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT IS OF FAITH......

   BUT iSRAEL WHO PURSUED A LAW OF RIGHTEOUSNESS HATH NOT OBTAINED IT,WHY NOT,BECAUSE YE

  PURSUED IT NOT BY FAITH,BUT BY WORKS.

these things have been going on since the time of messiah--the reason we know about all of it is we have TV's telephones and such--it has always been like this

John also was taken off the isle  and history records him later  preaching unto the people before he died--just like the angel said

Correct--those under the law didn't mix faith in as the believers did---they both did most of the same things---but it was done through faith by the believers and it was just dead works without faith through the unbelievers   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

John 3:36Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

Like "the wages" result "of sin is death"

..."but the gift of God is life.."

All have sinned, all die.. (imo) w/o God's Great Plan of Salvation, that would be the end of the story. Period.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 07:01:29 PM
I have a more "is was and will be" approach to the word of God. I find that provides a much fuller understanding.

This is exactly what i believe concerning the Bk of Rev.. of its characters, etc,

golden $ity Babylon - money based world

beasts which rule...

and also the wrath of God/fiery judgments..

have all happened before many times over.. and, will happen again, even on a global, one world scale..
seems logical to me and bound to happen that all untruth has to fall.. crash and burn, as the saying goes.. (imo, an eternal lesson who's smoke/memory of, will rise up for ever and ever.. literally, never ever forgotten.. otherwise why let mankind's choices unfold in the first place??)

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 07:01:29 PM
I have a more "is was and will be" approach to the word of God. I find that provides a much fuller understanding.

:iagree: with that statement from the perspective that it was originally written unto the 7 churches of asia minor

some things were is (present) unto them--some things were was(past)unto them--and some things were will be(future unto them)

those things that was will be  was the things that were coming to pass  shortly unto them--meaning they have already happened in our time.

this is how I agree with the statement you made  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

 :thumbsup:  ME TOO.   For instance...to me....to the seven churches in Asia..can be heard to say this......

  Asia=rising sun[son] so  to me the fuller understanding is the book of Revelations is addressed to

   all believers[church] in the resurrected son[Jesus Christ] 

Quote from: sheila on August 29, 2014, 08:26:58 PM
:thumbsup:  ME TOO.   For instance...to me....to the seven churches in Asia..can be heard to say this......

  Asia=rising sun[son] so  to me the fuller understanding is the book of Revelations is addressed to

   all believers[church] in the resurrected son[Jesus Christ]

all believers in that time and age--yes I agree

but not addressed unto the believers of today---those things in revelations only happened once---so the book of Revelations cant be addressed unto all believers of every generation---just to the generation it was written unto--which was the new testament time

but don't get me wrong Revelations is still for us--but it was never written unto us--but was written unto the 7 churches of asia minor when they existed and lived  upon the earth   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

The way I see it, if I have two kids, and I tell one, you better keep your hands out of the cookie jar or you will have a punishment. If the other kid is listening, he will do well to comply as well. It's all one family.

Imo, mankind's history and world history, has to have an end of the story, which to me, is the ultimate meaning of the Book of Revelation.. To not have a conclusion, of what man builds, to me, makes no logical sense.. Or, in other words, all of Revelation as historist, to me, makes no sense.. I do not believe our Lord's Kingdom will be an extension or continuation of man's empire.. Rev 20:4b is occurring now in other parts of the world..

A lot of preterists (and I am not saying this is you FAL) will say "peace and safety" because all the admonitions were written for the first church. So, when Paul says "God will not be mocked" that was only for the first church...as if God will be mocked centuries later.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 08:36:23 PM
The way I see it, if I have two kids, and I tell one, you better keep your hands out of the cookie jar or you will have a punishment. If the other kid is listening, he will do well to comply as well. It's all one family.

:iagree: with that statement also

but notice your 2 kids live in the same time---

the 7 churches of asia minor live in a different age than we are in---and the things of revelations only happen once

if your 2 kids do that--then the things that you said happens to both--in essence it happens twice

things that must shortly come to pass---in the time and life of the 7 churches of asia minor--not our time and age

Yahshua  was only coming back once--the trumpets only sounded once--the things revelations told only happened once

and I am persuaded in the time that it was written and to whom it was written unto  :dsunny: :dsunny:

I'm not a futurist either, but "shortly come to pass" is open to interpretation given that a 1,000 years is as a day to the Lord.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 08:41:24 PM
A lot of preterists (and I am not saying this is you FAL) will say "peace and safety" because all the admonitions were written for the first church. So, when Paul says "God will not be mocked" that was only for the first church...as if God will be mocked centuries later.

do I believe yahshua has already came back---yes
do I believe all things have been fulfilled--yes

do I believe we can get away with Sin--no indeed

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 08:46:10 PM
I'm not a futurist either, but "shortly come to pass" is open to interpretation given that a 1,000 years is as a day to the Lord.

I agree also---but that's talking about with Yah time doesn't persist9he is not time oriented)

he never had a beginning and never will have an end--what is time to Yah !!!

Time was instituted for man--we have a beginning and was going to have an end--but thanks to Yah he gave us his only begotten Son  :dsunny: :dsunny:

time means something to us--we are time oriented creatures

Shortly  or speedily or quickly still means the same thing--it has the same meaning to us and it would have for them

if im in Alaska and write a letter to you---saying I will be coming soon---quickly---speedily---how are you gonna take it
1k or 2k years later--I think not

it was but only a short time after revelations was written that all those things happened--I know there is debate on when Revelations was written--but all proof points to before ad 70 it was written-- :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

if it wasn't unto me..then how come I hear it in the spirit by faith.  Jesus commended the faith of those

  He was not sent unto...He said..never have I found such faith in Israel......

    are you a jew born under law? under the command to observe a literal sabbath day,sabbath year,jubilee

  or do you hear it in the spirit spoken to others at a different time..put faith in it..and are blessed by it


    the woman who replied....but the little dogs do eat under the table of the crumbs of the little children...

  put faith in Christ[even though He was not at that time speaking unto them] and was blessed through

  that same faith.

  if the command to 'come out of her my people'  was written for those back them...then what are we all

doing gathered here on tent? why not in christendom? or is the faith put into that word given to them,

2000 years ago a Blessing unto us?

Quote from: sheila on August 29, 2014, 08:57:43 PM
if it wasn't unto me..then how come I hear it in the spirit by faith.  Jesus commended the faith of those

  He was not sent unto...He said..never have I found such faith in Israel......

    are you a jew born under law? under the command to observe a literal sabbath day,sabbath year,jubilee

  or do you hear it in the spirit spoken to others at a different time..put faith in it..and are blessed by it


    the woman who replied....but the little dogs do eat under the table of the crumbs of the little children...

  put faith in Christ[even though He was not at that time speaking unto them] and was blessed through

  that same faith.

  if the command to 'come out of her my people'  was written for those back them...then what are we all

doing gathered here on tent? why not in christendom? or is the faith put into that word given to them,

2000 years ago a Blessing unto us?

you misunderstand me--I speak of the things that revelations said would befall them--those things happened in their time and was written unto them because they would experience them--like I said the vials only once were released--the trumps only blew once---in their time and age

now are we to come out of tradition and false doctrines today--YES !!!

are we to believe Yahshua today--YES!!!

but the wrath was only poured out once unto whom it was written unto--and that was in the time of the 7 churches of asia minor  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

When Jesus described the Kingdom, he used the example of good fish and bad fish and the fisherman will remove all the bad fish. There are actually TWO aspects of the kingdom being described here, one in which there are bad fish in the net, and another one in which, after a process, there would not be the bad fish.

Jesus said that the kingdom would be taken away from the Jews and given to another people. But then he also said that for those who claimed to do miracles by the Spirit "away from me, ye that work iniquity." So while the sorting process may have begun with the Jews but will continue with the Gentiles.

2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation....8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So even if the time is 1,000 years, that's not slackness to God. Peter here is addressing the very issue of fulfillment of the promise. They were expecting it and it wasn't coming. Peter's answer is that even though it looks like everything is the same (they are expecting things to not be the same after this promise) with the Lord, time doesn't work the same.

The promise is not based on MAN'S version of time, but on GOD'S version of time. So, when he says the time is short, he's not on our time table.

Quotedo I believe we can get away with Sin--no indeed

If I was a certain kind of preterist, I could say that since all scripture is fulfilled, you can't use scripture to verify that we cannot get away from sin. After all, all the teaching about sin was preached to someone else, not to us. I would say that we could glean valuable teachings, but that there's no warning against sin for anyone today. So, in affect, we can "get away with sin."

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:11:20 PM
When Jesus described the Kingdom, he used the example of good fish and bad fish and the fisherman will remove all the bad fish. There are actually TWO aspects of the kingdom being described here, one in which there are bad fish in the net, and another one in which, after a process, there would not be the bad fish.

Jesus said that the kingdom would be taken away from the Jews and given to another people. But then he also said that for those who claimed to do miracles by the Spirit "away from me, ye that work iniquity." So while the sorting process may have begun with the Jews but will continue with the Gentiles.

2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation....8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.


:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So even if the time is 1,000 years, that's not slackness to God. Peter here is addressing the very issue of fulfillment of the promise. They were expecting it and it wasn't coming. Peter's answer is that even though it looks like everything is the same (they are expecting things to not be the same after this promise) with the Lord, time doesn't work the same.

The promise is not based on MAN'S version of time, but on GOD'S version of time. So, when he says the time is short, he's not on our time table.

Quotedo I believe we can get away with Sin--no indeed

If I was a certain kind of preterist, I could say that since all scripture is fulfilled, you can't use scripture to verify that we cannot get away from sin. After all, all the teaching about sin was preached to someone else, not to us. I would say that we could glean valuable teachings, but that there's no warning against sin for anyone today. So, in affect, we can "get away with sin."

maybe you have a different definition of what all things fulfilled means  ???

just depends on the way you look at it from the light that you have  Brother  :dsunny: :dsunny

What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

you mis-read me Brother--I was not saying he had not return--I was saying it from the perspective of those who believes he had not returned yet.

I affirm again--I do believe he has returned at ad 70  :dsunny: :dsunny:

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

7  groups of christians in literal Babylonia boundaries at present. coptic,Maronites,Greek orthodx,protestants

  Melkites, Armenian and Roman catholic.  why did we hear in faith 'come out of her my people' and they

did not? Literal/spiritual........

   in reality then..we are all living on a cleansed new earth. no more curse.no death,mourning,tears..the former

things have passed away........because the wrath of God come on the jews back then..........


   signs in heaven and earth.....those dwellingin heaven rejoice when satan is cast down/Babylon

destroyed[spiritually]..but woe to those who dwell on the earth.[literal]

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 09:28:45 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:38:26 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 09:28:45 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

I understand your dilemma --I also had somewhat of the same when I first begin seeing the preterist view

the only thing that is left for us today---is to die in this flesh and go on unto Yah--for our judgement

there is no more Soul DEATH any longer--I also believe the resurrection has already occurred

Yahshua has defeated that last enemy Paul spoke about--DEATH

after the resurrection--DEATH was swallowed up in Victory---men only laid down the flesh after the resurrection--their Soul went on to Yah  and was judged

that's what is awaiting us---Judgement according to our deeds here in the flesh---we have already been saved from DEATH through Yahshua  :dsunny:

 then how can you say the judgements[famine/plague/war/pestilence] in Revelation do not apply?

Quote from: sheila on August 29, 2014, 09:55:32 PM
then how can you say the judgements[famine/plague/war/pestilence] in Revelation do not apply?

they already came to pass in the time of the new testament

there will always be those in the world as long as it stands

but those particular ones was for the new testament age the period of the 7 churches  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 09:49:28 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:38:26 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 09:28:45 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

I understand your dilemma --I also had somewhat of the same when I first begin seeing the preterist view

the only thing that is left for us today---is to die in this flesh and go on unto Yah--for our judgement

there is no more Soul DEATH any longer--I also believe the resurrection has already occurred

Yahshua has defeated that last enemy Paul spoke about--DEATH

after the resurrection--DEATH was swallowed up in Victory---men only laid down the flesh after the resurrection--their Soul went on to Yah  and was judged

that's what is awaiting us---Judgement according to our deeds here in the flesh---we have already been saved from DEATH through Yahshua  :dsunny:

It's not a dilemma for me. It's a dilemma I am trying to see if your doctrine of preterism can solve. Since I believe past fulfillment is a valid approach, along with present and future, I am trying to see what the common ground is that you and I have on this.

The problem I see is that you base the "judgment according to our deeds" on scriptures that were only written TO that church, just like with Revelation. Revelation was written to those seven churches. Romans was written to the Romans.

Therefore, it would follow that if Paul's prophecy about judgment according to our deeds can be applied to future generations, so also the book of Revelation.

Quote from: sheila on August 29, 2014, 09:55:32 PM
then how can you say the judgements[famine/plague/war/pestilence] in Revelation do not apply?

I also believe that just as the new testament writers proclaimed how those things of their forefather's in the old testament--when they disobeyed and that which came upon them in every instance was examples unto the new testament church to not fall after the same manner

also we see what occurred in the new testament and what befell them- what happened to the unbelieving jews--there city--their temple

the world today as a whole has that same example for them today that they not fall after the same example of the new testament unbelievers

though not recorded in the bible imo--- the same will befall all men on this planet someday just like it was on the unbelieving jews--because of their ungodliness and their unbelief

we have the example not to follow just as the new testament church had ---Judgement is coming to this planet--I believe it is just around the corner.

but I don't relate that to what was for the new testament age---written unto them. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 10:04:06 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 09:49:28 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:38:26 PM

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 09:28:45 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 09:20:55 PM
What I am trying to get at is the rationale by which we can apply some scriptures to the future (you had mentioned we are still waiting for the second coming of Christ, in another thread). Maybe you could walk us through what you believe qualifies a scripture to signify a future event from this time forward.

future event verse ---john said we shall see him as he is(Yahshua)

they have already saw him--we on the other hand are still alive in flesh

when we pass from this flesh we also with them shall see Yahshua as he is   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's the problem. Preterists have used the fact that the NT prophecies, though future tense, were only written TO the first church, and therefore are not fulfillments expected for US today. So they limit the future tense to only applying within the lives of those who heard it, just as with the 4 Gospels. They use that rationale to show that sin is now OK. I know you disagree with that, but I don't understand the justification yet.

If the rationale is that the fulfillment are FOR the people they are spoken TO, then all prophecy is fully fulfilled in all the scripture, and there is NOTHING to look forward to. In fact, I had a preterist tell me that he didn't know what the future holds, because all prophecy is fulfilled. But he used the same rationale you are using. Maybe I am misunderstanding your rationale, but that is what I am trying to understand.

I understand your dilemma --I also had somewhat of the same when I first begin seeing the preterist view

the only thing that is left for us today---is to die in this flesh and go on unto Yah--for our judgement

there is no more Soul DEATH any longer--I also believe the resurrection has already occurred

Yahshua has defeated that last enemy Paul spoke about--DEATH

after the resurrection--DEATH was swallowed up in Victory---men only laid down the flesh after the resurrection--their Soul went on to Yah  and was judged

that's what is awaiting us---Judgement according to our deeds here in the flesh---we have already been saved from DEATH through Yahshua  :dsunny:

It's not a dilemma for me. It's a dilemma I am trying to see if your doctrine of preterism can solve. Since I believe past fulfillment is a valid approach, along with present and future, I am trying to see what the common ground is that you and I have on this.

The problem I see is that you base the "judgment according to our deeds" on scriptures that were only written TO that church, just like with Revelation. Revelation was written to those seven churches. Romans was written to the Romans.

Therefore, it would follow that if Paul's prophecy about judgment according to our deeds can be applied to future generations, so also the book of Revelation.

im not saying judgement cant come again on the whole planet--but I am saying that that in revelations was for that time and age.

I just put up a post about it

and the like--just as they were judged--we also shall be judged after we lay down this flesh

Quotethough not recorded in the bible imo--- the same will befall all men on this planet someday just like it was on the unbelieving jews--because of their ungodliness and their unbelief

Well, it's maybe just a different way of seeing things. But if the same will befall all men on this planet someday....then it WAS recorded in the Bible and can be applied Biblically.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 10:25:44 PM

Quotethough not recorded in the bible imo--- the same will befall all men on this planet someday just like it was on the unbelieving jews--because of their ungodliness and their unbelief

Well, it's maybe just a different way of seeing things. But if the same will befall all men on this planet someday....then it WAS recorded in the Bible and can be applied Biblically.

like I said the vials were already done--the trumps have already blown--the things of revelations has already occurred to the new testament age

it cant be applied to our time--But we can say that judgement will come to this planet--because of unbelief and ungodliness

it was unto the jewish unbelievers in the new testament---next it will be on the entire planet--gentiles

jews were first given the oracles of Yah--they mishandled them--they were judged
Gentiles then were given them--today the same example of unbelief is coming from the unbelieving gentiles as it did from the unbelieveing jews

Gentiles--the rest of all the nations on the planet---will suffer  judgement as the jews did for their transgressions


but here again--that in the new testament happened unto the unbelieving jews--already fulfilled

all things of the law and prophets are fulfilled--the new testament is fulfilled---done    :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

I would agree that they are fulfilled, but I also say that they are being fulfilled, and just like the church of old is admonished and encouraged by Revelation, so also with the church of new. The overcomer is promised things in the book of Revelation and by Paul in his writings, and those promises carry over to the recent church as well. And, so it will go until death is abolished. Death is not yet abolished, and I believe the "second death" still has application to day as a symbol which is being fulfilled today, even if the initial fulfillment was for the early church.

Revelation is a symbolic book. Its symbols carry from generation to generation.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 10:42:16 PM
I would agree that they are fulfilled, but I also say that they are being fulfilled, and just like the church of old is admonished and encouraged by Revelation, so also with the church of new. The overcomer is promised things in the book of Revelation and by Paul in his writings, and those promises carry over to the recent church as well. And, so it will go until death is abolished. Death is not yet abolished, and I believe the "second death" still has application to day as a symbol which is being fulfilled today, even if the initial fulfillment was for the early church.

Revelation is a symbolic book. Its symbols carry from generation to generation.

just depends on what you believe Death is  :dsunny: :dsunny:

I can agree that some of the things carry over such as--being judged,see Yahshua as he is,those kinda things  yes I agree

but  things like Yahshua coming(already happened--not gonna happen again)Resurrection(already happened--no need of a resurrection today)

trumps have blown(not gonna blow again)vials have been done(not gonna be done again)  and so forth  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

For one thing we know that the book of Revelation incorporates much imagery from the Old Testament. I see a strong correlation here with the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

So when I compare to the Lake of Fire I see a striking resemblance:

Revelation
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever (unto the age of the age): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Fire, smoke rising, torment, devouring. It's all there. And there are many more Old Testament scriptures that deal with sin itself as being like a fire and using imagery present in Revelation 14 and 20.

Now, when I get to the end of Revelation I see a city dressed up as a Bride. The Bride is the church. The church is positioned above a mountain peak and also below heaven, as if to say that though the church is in the earth, they are also in a high position with God.

I see this Bride still in operation, for John says "The Spirit and the Bride say, come and drink the water of life freely." Everyone will eventually come out of (second) death and into the Bride to drink that symbolic water. But this has been true in the past, it's true now, and that gospel will be preached until, as Paul said "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." As long as the carnal mind exists, death is not destroyed. As Paul said, when the end comes death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

The Bride is still saying "come drink the water of life freely." That's the Gospel being preached. It's still being preached today. It will be preached tomorrow, and all the way unto that end when death is destroyed.

I see a past, present and future fulfillment of all these symbols.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 10:55:34 PM
For one thing we know that the book of Revelation incorporates much imagery from the Old Testament. I see a strong correlation here with the Lake of Fire.

Isaiah 9:18-20
His anger is not turned away, his hand is still upraised. Surely WICKEDNESS burns like a fire; it consumes briers and thorns, it sets the forest thickets ablaze, so that it rolls upward in a column of smoke. By the wrath of the Lord Almighty the land will be scorched and the people will be fuel for the fire; they will not spare one another. On the right they will devour, but still be hungry; on the left they will eat, but not be satisfied.

So when I compare to the Lake of Fire I see a striking resemblance:

Revelation




10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever (unto the age of the age): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Fire, smoke rising, torment, devouring. It's all there. And there are many more Old Testament scriptures that deal with sin itself as being like a fire and using imagery present in Revelation 14 and 20.

Now, when I get to the end of Revelation I see a city dressed up as a Bride. The Bride is the church. The church is positioned above a mountain peak and also below heaven, as if to say that though the church is in the earth, they are also in a high position with God.

I see this Bride still in operation, for John says "The Spirit and the Bride say, come and drink the water of life freely." Everyone will eventually come out of (second) death and into the Bride to drink that symbolic water. But this has been true in the past, it's true now, and that gospel will be preached until, as Paul said "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." As long as the carnal mind exists, death is not destroyed. As Paul said, when the end comes death will be the last enemy to be destroyed.

The Bride is still saying "come drink the water of life freely." That's the Gospel being preached. It's still being preached today. It will be preached tomorrow, and all the way unto that end when death is destroyed.

I see a past, present and future fulfillment of all these symbols.

me and you differ on what DEATH means then---when paul said DEATH would be swallowed up in victory.

I believe that death that was to be destroyed was actually accomplished at the resurrection--which I believe has occurred .

the Holy and Righteous One(Yahshua)which had no sin---fulfilled the law--died for all mankind--the law had no authority over him--no dominion
that verdict from the law--DEATH--could not hold  the Holy One down--it had no power over him

Yahshua arose and when he returned at ad 70  imo  he set the captives free!!!  in adam all had DEATH--in Yahshua all have LIFE

DEATH has been destroyed--

I do agree that the 2nd death--the lake of fire--will burn the carnality,wickedness,impurities,unbelief---and so on--from every person--that's part of the judgement

and I believe it is going on now with those who are already there in it---and is waiting for those today who shall enter  :dsunny: :dsunny:

QuoteYahshua arose and when he returned at ad 70  imo  he set the captives free!!!  in adam all had DEATH--in Yahshua all have LIFE

DEATH has been destroyed--

I do agree that the 2nd death--the lake of fire--will burn the carnality,wickedness,impurities,unbelief---and so on--from every person--that's part of the judgement

To be carnally minded is death. But to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Therefore, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, until there is no more carnal mind.

1 Corthinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

It's interesting Paul's take on what it means to be alive. It's not just about resurrection. It's about being "in Christ." That's how man is made alive.

So when you consider 70AD, were there people in Jerusalem who were believers? Yes. What were they if not "in Christ?" Therefore, THEY WERE ALREADY MADE ALIVE before they were saved from 70AD. Therefore, for them, death in the carnal mind was already destroyed, and they looked forward to the final completion when they would receive bodies in heaven. But for the whole world, not everyone is made alive in Christ yet. They must bend their knees and confess with their mouths.

This is the context of Paul's prophecy about death being destroyed. It has to do with people being "made alive in Christ."

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:07:41 PM

QuoteYahshua arose and when he returned at ad 70  imo  he set the captives free!!!  in adam all had DEATH--in Yahshua all have LIFE

DEATH has been destroyed--

I do agree that the 2nd death--the lake of fire--will burn the carnality,wickedness,impurities,unbelief---and so on--from every person--that's part of the judgement

To be carnally minded is death. But to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Therefore, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, until there is no more carnal mind.

1st Corinthians 15:54-57

tells you plainly the Death and what it is corresponding unto

O GRAVE where is thy sting
O GRAVE where is thy victory

sting of death is Sin
strength of sin is the law

Yahshua fulfilled the law--did not sin

this is talking about the resurrection from DEATH---Soul death  in context

Just as the grave could not hold Yahshua--when Yahshua returned and called them forth--DEATH was destroyed and could no longer hold them also


if you correspond the death and life  differences--then I suggest going back to the old testament--this is where paul is stating what you are talking about from

those who kept his commandments--what followed them---Blessings,Good,LIFE
those who kept not his commandments-what followed them--Cursings,Evil,DEATH

I believe he is referring in what you are talking about with the Aion life and Aion death---those who live carnally and not  through faith had nothing to look forward to but Death of the aion,but those on the other hand---Life of the Aion

ad 70 comes again---death of the Aion for those who lived such  and Life of the Aion for those who lived such  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quotethis is talking about the resurrection from DEATH

The grave doesn't just have to do with physical death. Paul did talk about resurrection:

Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

That's all about life and death and being made alive "in Christ." This is Paul's context with 1 Cor 15. Resurrection isn't just about literal death. It's about being made alive in Christ. The believers in 70AD were made alive in Christ already.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:25:32 PM
1 Corthinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

It's interesting Paul's take on what it means to be alive. It's not just about resurrection. It's about being "in Christ." That's how man is made alive.

So when you consider 70AD, were there people in Jerusalem who were believers? Yes. What were they if not "in Christ?" Therefore, THEY WERE ALREADY MADE ALIVE before they were saved from 70AD. Therefore, for them, death in the carnal mind was already destroyed, and they looked forward to the final completion when they would receive bodies in heaven. But for the whole world, not everyone is made alive in Christ yet. They must bend their knees and confess with their mouths.

This is the context of Paul's prophecy about death being destroyed. It has to do with people being "made alive in Christ."

you are already in Christ---all mankind is in Christ
do you think we are still in adam---no

mankind didn't do anything to be in adam--they were placed there by Yah---through 1 man--Adam
mankind does nothing to be in Christ--they are placed there by Yah--through 1 man--Yahshua

you see --everyone agrees that man did nothing to be in adam and have death passed unto them
but men has a problem and thinks we have to do something or even believe to be in Yahshua---no

through 1 man-- DEATH(soul death) passed upon all
through 1 man---LIFE (resurrection from the soul death)passed upon ALL men


all mankind is saved from that DEATH through Yahshua

and it goes on to say ALL shall(future)be made Righteous

this is the ongoing process now--making ALL Righteous---for ALL have already been delivered from DEATH   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quoteall mankind is saved from that DEATH through Yahshua

and it goes on to say ALL shall(future)be made Righteous

this is the ongoing process now--making ALL Righteous---for ALL have already been delivered from DEATH   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:42:06 PM

Quoteall mankind is saved from that DEATH through Yahshua

and it goes on to say ALL shall(future)be made Righteous

this is the ongoing process now--making ALL Righteous---for ALL have already been delivered from DEATH   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

aion death and aion life   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:44:10 PM
Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

so  Yah    did put all mankind in adam--even though they had not sinned after adam
then Yah came back and only puts them in Yahshua that does something to earn it ??

is this what you believe  ??

the ALL in both cases are the same group of people there

Being dead in Adam means to have the death that Adam brought into the world: the carnal mind. Death. Everyone is born with a carnal mind, which is death. As they come into Christ they are delivered from the carnal mind as Romans 6 states.

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 11:50:32 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:44:10 PM
Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

so  Yah    did put all mankind in adam--even though they had not sinned after adam
then Yah came back and only puts them in Yahshua that does something to earn it ??

is this what you believe  ??

the ALL in both cases are the same group of people there

let me rephrase my comment then

Through 1 man---DEATH
Through 1 man--LIFE

though they may not be --in Christ--they are still the ALL through 1 man--Yahshua--they are gonna be resurrected from the dead--and be made righteous
:dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:

...a note about He comes quickly.. could be just that.. when He comes, He comes quickly..

like the third woe occurs quickly, Rev 11:14

and also "Behold He comes with clouds and every eye will see Him" Rev 1:7

and "as you have seen Him go, so shall you see Him return" Acts 1:19

Mt 24:28-31 "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (35+10, dan 12:11,12 & rev 2:10) "...they shall see... the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send out His angles to gather His elect from the four directions under heaven.."

Sorry if someone already posted these.. reading on..

Paul says "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

EACH TO HIS ORDER

Why? Because through ONE man death entered into the world AND DEATH BY SIN.

We are born with a carnal mind in Adam and IN CHRIST shall all be made alive, each to his ORDER.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:51:41 PM
Being dead in Adam means to have the death that Adam brought into the world: the carnal mind. Death. Everyone is born with a carnal mind, which is death. As they come into Christ they are delivered from the carnal mind as Romans 6 states.

what scripture do you use for that carnal mind entering the world--it was already in adam before he fell or else he would not have fallen ??

Man could have eaten of the tree of life and had eternal life

since man ate of the wrong tree--it was eternal death  --Soul Death

man didn't inherent anything from the fall that he didn't have before hand
adam chose to Sin
men choose to Sin


through adam--eternal DEATH
through Yahshua--eternal life

1 Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Quote from: FreeAtLast on August 29, 2014, 11:57:50 PM

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:51:41 PM
Being dead in Adam means to have the death that Adam brought into the world: the carnal mind. Death. Everyone is born with a carnal mind, which is death. As they come into Christ they are delivered from the carnal mind as Romans 6 states.

what scripture do you use for that carnal mind entering the world--it was already in adam before he fell or else he would not have fallen ??

Man could have eaten of the tree of life and had eternal life

since man ate of the wrong tree--it was eternal death  --Soul Death

man didn't inherent anything from the fall that he didn't have before hand
adam chose to Sin
men choose to Sin


through adam--eternal DEATH
through Yahshua--eternal life

The reason that to be carnally minded is death is because when Adam sinned he was expelled from God's presence. Paul said that we were alienated in our minds from God THROUGH WICKED WORKS. We are all the seed of Adam, expelled from God's presence through wicked works.

The seed of Adam does what Adam does. Remember when Jesus called the Jews sons of the devil and he denied that they were the seed of Abraham? Why? Because if they were the seed of Abraham they would do what Abraham did and believe and walk in obedience through faith.

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:58:08 PM
1 Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

so you are saying that all are not in Christ at this present time--but some are still in adam  ??

What I am saying is that all shall be made alive in Christ unto their own order. Not everyone is made alive in Christ. If you believe that everyone is in Christ already, fine. I don't see it that way. I see Romans 7, and Romans 6 explaining what it means to be joined unto Christ by the Spirit. But I do see in 1 Cor 15 that everyone shall be MADE ALIVE IN Christ unto his order.

If they are made alive in Christ unto their order, then they are made alive from being dead in Adam in their order too. Man moves from ONE to the OTHER but each to their order.

Oh my gosh.. some of revelation from our perspective is preterist..

the Seals - some is preterist
1 - the victorious rider on a white horse.. the gospel, continues its ride to the 'end'

2 - war, rider on red horse and is given a "long" and, or "great sword".. (does that ring any bells?)

3 - shortage always follows war...

4 - pestilence always follows war (black death, etc, including chemical will kill in total 1/4 of all living) death and the grave (including the mass grave follows this one!

5 - martyrdom.. not yet done/full (see rev 20:4b) -  blood cries out like the blood of Abel..

6 - these seals are described as a blend of 2 things, their beginning and their fully mature state at the 'end'!! this is important for understanding the Bk of Rev.. now read it again, seal 6 and tell me it is not man's splitting of the atom, followed by a pause in it used as warfare - 7:1 ......?????? (man's splitting of the atom, surely? is also 13:13!!!!!!

Was it Isaiah said the planet will rock to and fro? yes, literal fufillment, why not? this is the lesson! Cannot walk away from / live separate from God.. can never work. Will never bring good..

I believe that's it for preterist except for most of Rev 12 a whole history from a different starting point.. history of the faith on earth.. complete.

See 7:1-? when the pause - of the split atom being used as warfare - ends, is the opening of the 7th seal, within which is the sounding of the 7 trumpets, and the bowls/finishing is in the 7th trump..

which btw, have we been resurrected yet. those who are alive and remain joining those asleep in Jesus, and meeting Him at His return.. then His feet touch down on the Mt of Olives, from where He left - "just as you saw Him go" (from the Mt of Olives) "SO shall you see Him return"

Zechariah 14:4 -
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

And the very throne of God comes to the earth.. fulfilled? has occurred? not that I can see! Man's doings seem, to me, to be still allowed to unfold and be running the show..

judgement / LOF outside Jerusalem.. still pending.. rev 16;14,15,16
:Peace2:

Quote from: Seth on August 30, 2014, 12:06:58 AM
What I am saying is that all shall be made alive in Christ unto their own order. Not everyone is made alive in Christ. If you believe that everyone is in Christ already, fine. I don't see it that way. I see Romans 7, and Romans 6 explaining what it means to be joined unto Christ by the Spirit. But I do see in 1 Cor 15 that everyone shall be MADE ALIVE IN Christ unto his order.

made alive in Christ is different than having(Soul) life from the(Soul) death--meaning that Soul shall live and not be dead

By the righteousness of Yahshua --the free gift came upon ALL men unto justification of Life(Soul life from Soul death)what was the free gift??

when I say Soul Life--doesn't mean they all are made alive in Christ at the present time--but are alive(Soul)

being made alive in Christ--I take as the future promise of  ALL being made Righteous--even though all Live(Soul)they still need to be made alive in Christ.

hope I made this more plainer as to what im trying to say  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2014, 12:15:08 AM
Oh my gosh.. some of revelation from our perspective is preterist..

the Seals - some is preterist
1 - the victorious rider on a white horse.. the gospel, continues its ride to the 'end'

2 - war, rider on red horse and is given a "long" and, or "great sword".. (does that ring any bells?)

3 - shortage always follows war...

4 - pestilence always follows war (black death, etc, including chemical will kill in total 1/4 of all living) death and the grave (including the mass grave follows this one!

5 - martyrdom.. not yet done/full (see rev 20:4b) -  blood cries out like the blood of Abel..

6 - these seals are described as a blend of 2 things, their beginning and their fully mature state at the 'end'!! this is important for understanding the Bk of Rev.. now read it again, seal 6 and tell me it is not man's splitting of the atom, followed by a pause in it used as warfare - 7:1 ......?????? (man's splitting of the atom, surely? is also 13:13!!!!!!

Was it Isaiah said the planet will rock to and fro? yes, literal fufillment, why not? this is the lesson! Cannot walk away from / live separate from God.. can never work. Will never bring good..

I believe that's it for preterist except for most of Rev 12 a whole history from a different starting point.. history of the faith on earth.. complete.

See 7:1-? when the pause - of the split atom being used as warfare - ends, is the opening of the 7th seal, within which is the sounding of the 7 trumpets, and the bowls/finishing is in the 7th trump..

which btw, have we been resurrected yet. those who are alive and remain joining those asleep in Jesus, and meeting Him at His return.. then His feet touch down on the Mt of Olives, from where He left - "just as you saw Him go" (from the Mt of Olives) "SO shall you see Him return"

Zechariah 14:4 -
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

And the very throne of God comes to the earth.. fulfilled? has occurred? not that I can see! Man's doings seem, to me, to be still allowed to unfold and be running the show..

judgement / LOF outside Jerusalem.. still pending.. rev 16;14,15,16
:Peace2:

like I said--we see as far as the light that shines in front of us lets us see   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: Seth on August 29, 2014, 11:58:08 PM
1 Cor 15
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Amen...

"..afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

doesn't this mean aLL power and authority on earth, other than God? phew.. that takes care of ISIS.. etc..

These verse of course, coincide with the coming of God's throne to the planet so that God will now "tabernacle" live with "mankind" upon an earth made new in a universe made new.. no more seas.. I see oceans still..

"behold I come quickly" is stated after all this prophesy about new heavens and earth and God's throne upon earth.. Praise the Lord.. I'd HATE to think man's world and empire continues on and on and on.. forever, nothing changing..  :eek:

...and rev 20:4b is occurring right now in other parts of the world..

1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Colossians 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life (aionios life).

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Quote from: Seth on August 30, 2014, 12:27:47 AM
1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Colossians 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life (aionios life).

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

what was the free gift I quoted in my last post ??

Quote from: Seth on August 30, 2014, 12:27:47 AM
1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 4:13
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Colossians 2:6
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

1 John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life (aionios life).

Romans 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

what happens to a person that dies today ???

1 thess 4 "asleep in Christ"

..."concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,
14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,
15 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

God bless!! :smile:

The ambiguity here is the phrase "soul death." A soul being dead to me is the result of sin separating us from God in our minds. That's soul death. I understand what you mean by soul death as in immortality vs mortality. But I see a distinguishing between the promised immortality, and the life in Christ which puts an end to death, which is to be carnally minded.

Life and immortality are not the same thing. Life is "righteousness unto life" which is what the free gift is. The free gift that is upon all men, is the same thing as "the grace which brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us to abandon unrighteousness in this present age."

That's aionios zoe, the life of the age. Immortality will be added to that life as Paul says "this mortal must put on immortality."

The free gift is that God gives his Spirit without man needing to work for it. Man believes in Christ, Christ breaks the carnal mind, and brings life away from unrighteousness. That's righteousness unto life.

That's why I tell you that the saints in Jerusalem in 70AD were made alive in Christ before the Romans destroyed it. They were made alive according to the Romans 6 definition of being resurrected in Christ. Freedom from sin.

 :2c:

Those who sleep will awaken. Those who remain alive will follow. Some who are not sleeping, but are among the spirits of righteous men made perfect(Hebrews 12:22-24) will be in His vanguard. This, imo, is what Paul says he was hoping to "attain to" in Phil 3.

Who are they? Perhaps overcomers from throughout the ages. Where are they?The categorizing of where the dead and departed are is a science of opinion for the most part. As I see it God has more categories, options, abodes than most any systematic theology will allow for. Our boxes are always to small and too one dimensional. Our God has infinite dimensions and we cant see into them nearly so far as we would like to think we do.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Hebrews 12 contains a picture of the eternal assembly. It has components. Those components are in different "rooms" or abodes as far as time is concerned, but they are all one aionian tabernacle also. As paul said several times, "In the presence of God and His holy angels I have decided to...etc". Paul acted in concert and council with the heavenly assembly as the prophets before him had as well.

Zec 3:7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

Ezekiel 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.

Psalm 83:1 Elohim takes his place in his own assembly.
    He pronounces judgment among the gods(mighty ones):

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God(spirits of righteous men made perfect): I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


the cosmology of these polarizing theologies seems too limited to me. I dont think they come anywhere near enveloping the truth about the things they assert so confidently. :o)

I was just thinking.. if Revelation was fulfilled in 70a.d. why was it even written? having been written about 90 a.d.?

peace and God bless.. :smile:

I agree marie glen

All was not fulfilled. The book has much to do with future prophetic events IMO

Quote from: marie glen on August 30, 2014, 01:32:30 AM
I was just thinking.. if Revelation was fulfilled in 70a.d. why was it even written? having been written about 90 a.d.?

peace and God bless.. :smile:

I guess to tell people in parable and mystery what had already occurred in their plain site? :dontknow:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ has to do with PROPHECY period.

Rev 19:10  and I fell before his feet, to bow before him, and he saith to me, `See--not! fellow servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren, those having the testimony of Jesus; bow before God, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy.'
:HeartThrob: