Falling away compared to what?

[WhiteWings]

WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?

That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.

I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...

[Molly]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

Where you end depends on where you start.  So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.

Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:

My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016

wait a minute wait a minute

2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it.  Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?

You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

Where you end depends on where you start.  So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.

Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:

My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016

wait a minute wait a minute

2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it.  Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?

You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:

Don't ask things you don't wanna hear.... 2037-2038 or less likely 2038-2039
1988-1989 was the last one.
2015-2016 is halfway and a regular Sabbath year.
Maybe we a cut off in the middle of the week of Sabbaths

[Molly]

ww why not count 2000 years from his birth instead of from his death?

[thinktank]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

Where you end depends on where you start.  So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.

Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:

My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016

wait a minute wait a minute

2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it.  Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?

You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:

I'm still waiting your retaliation, why suffer me to wait so long.
-----------
I'm curious if you really believe that the date can be calculated?

[WhiteWings]

ww why not count 2000 years from his birth instead of from his death?

1997
Good question.
If I would order the events in order of importance I would say: brith, ministry, resurrection
Ministry started on  a Sabbath year (followed by a Jubilee year)
Death was halfway a cycle.
Birth had nothing to do with Sabbath cycles.
I think Sabbath and Jubilee are of great importance for several reasons. One of them is THIS post

[Nathan]

WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?

That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.

I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...

Your response on post #23, you said . . .
That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.

I really don't think I was making much of a stretch by my assessment.  It's been the ongoing argument from the beginning.  We frustrate each other because on side always shares out what they see symbolically while the other continues to reemphasize the literal. 

The "reason" why "I" choose to lean heavily toward spiritual than natural is for one, it just lights me up more than proving something.  But "in" that, I see how Scripture so strongly supports it in that it states that flesh profits nothing.  Paul even spends a lot of time eluding to the "mysteries" and in Galatians 4 he even gives a perfect example of "how" he goes dimensional by referring to Isaac being born out of a womb of the free where as his brother was born out of a womb of slavery. 

When sharing spiritual truths, it removes the need and desire to "prove" via verse and Scripture why you see what you see.  No one questioned Peter's response to who he saw Jesus to be, even though they just explained how many people saw Jesus as many other forms . . .but what Peter saw was a direct revelation from God.  he didn't "rely" on what he learned or what was being taught by other commentators of the day. 

Jesus built his message on principles, not on tangibles.  He built it on spiritual truth, not natural reasoning.  So why would it be any different for us to desire the spiritual over the natural?

[Taffy]

What  did Paul MEAN to compare Spiritual with Spiritual , :icon_flower:

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 


1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 

1Cr 2:14   But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned


  :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?

That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.

I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...

Your response on post #23, you said . . .
That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.

I really don't think I was making much of a stretch by my assessment.  It's been the ongoing argument from the beginning.  We frustrate each other because on side always shares out what they see symbolically while the other continues to reemphasize the literal.

That's your frustration. Mine is (partly) different.
My frustration is that literal threats get hijacked by spiritual stuff.

and WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance

I chalange you to find one post by me that even hints in that direction.
The Bible is a religious book. It would be insane to claim spiritual stuff isn't of higher importance that the literal stuff.
I would even say the spiritual stuff is of much more importance. Perhaps the only importance.

But:
- He who only understands the literal doesn't understand the Bible
- He who doesn't understand the literal doesn't understand the spiritual.

Or:
- If the literal isn't (fully) understood then (spiritual) spiritual can't be understood either.

The literal can be fully understood without understanding the slightest of the spiritual. But then you miss the whole point of the Bible.
The literal patterns are made to reveal the spiritual truth.

I see the Bible as a package deal.

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 

:thumbsup: for trying. Try harder next time  :laughing7:

That verse has nothing to do with literal.
The literal things in the Bible are inspired by the very same Spirit that inspires the spiritual things.
Man's teaching is everything, spiritual and literal, that isn't in 100% accordance with what the HS teaches.
:2c:

[Taffy]

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 

:thumbsup: for trying. Try harder next time  :laughing7:

That verse has nothing to do with literal.
The literal things in the Bible are inspired by the very same Spirit that inspires the spiritual things.
Man's teaching is everything, spiritual and literal, that isn't in 100% accordance with what the HS teaches.
:2c:

Ive never stated we THROW the literal out the pram--- EVER--- ,THE  fact remains- that Literal  as in Natural UNDERSTANDING  are ONE level- but the HIGHER plain is the SPIRITUAL- The Natural man  is where your at Tony trying to DISCERN spiritual Truths WITH NATURAL man Wisdom comparing the Natural with the Natural[ IN THIS particular case]---- FOLK have been doing it for yrs-- thryng to access the EXACT time and date of His DEATH and resurrection--- who REALLY cares? just some smart bloke who believe hes worked it all out- for what? its the TRUTH which rises above the Balck and white which Matters- LEST Christ would have spoke Like natural men  - \literal by Natural Take and NOT PARABLES--- ya to smart to understand this Bud--- :icon_flower:

again folk for centuries LIKE you have it all worked out BY plan and Method- who then By resonable loggic SET A DATE--- then WOOPS!--- lol :mblush: TIME to move on me thinks- have a Good day Bud

[WhiteWings]

1Cr 2:13   Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 

:thumbsup: for trying. Try harder next time  :laughing7:

That verse has nothing to do with literal.
The literal things in the Bible are inspired by the very same Spirit that inspires the spiritual things.
Man's teaching is everything, spiritual and literal, that isn't in 100% accordance with what the HS teaches.
:2c:

Ive never stated we THROW the literal out the pram--- EVER--- ,

True. But whenever a literal thread is started it gets so often taken off-topic. And you are always very nearby when that happens :hammerhead:
I understand threads go off-topic after a while. But check out this thread as an example. Not  even a single attempt to answer my OP.

THE  fact remains- that Literal  as in Natural UNDERSTANDING  are ONE level- but the HIGHER plain is the SPIRITUAL-

The other fact is that a chirurgeon without education is called a butcher....

The Natural man  is where your at Tony trying to DISCERN spiritual Truths WITH NATURAL man Wisdom

Wrong. I try to see natural pattern and then find spiritual patterns that align. I'm trying to discern spiritual truth by inspired natural writings.
You seem to thing natural equals manmade. (not sure if you truely don't see that of just putting up a strawman) I disagree with that because if the Bible is inspired then the natural Sodom really burned down. That inspired natural fact is equally true as the most advanced spiritual teaching.
And yes.. I fully accept that literal event does have between 1  and 777 zillion spiritual meanings.

comparing the Natural with the Natural[ IN THIS particular case]---- FOLK have been doing it for yrs-- thryng to access the EXACT time and date of His DEATH and resurrection--- who REALLY cares?

Who cares what the spiritual says? It's equally meaningles to know. It changes nothing.
And I can tell you from experience that figuring out dates is far more than adding numbers. You can't figure out a single date without learning a lot of stuff along the way.

just some smart bloke who believe hes worked it all out- for what?

Just mention a single spiritual post of you that matters. None of them matters. Unless you believe they somehow change God's plan.

its the TRUTH which rises above the Balck and white which Matters

That's only part of the truth.
Truth rises out of black and white. False teachings rise out of grey.

again folk for centuries LIKE you have it all worked out BY plan and Method- who then By resonable loggic SET A DATE--- then WOOPS!--- lol

I'm not setting any date. I'm just writing what I found. I truely don't care if Revelation was in 70BC, 70AD or 9999999AD
But for me one thing is sure. If the dates are not in the Bible then the whole Bible is false....

TIME to move on me thinks- have a Good day Bud

Nasty things those uphill battles :icon_jokercolor:

[Molly]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

Where you end depends on where you start.  So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.

Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:

My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016

wait a minute wait a minute

2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it.  Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?

You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:

I'm still waiting your retaliation, why suffer me to wait so long.
-----------
I'm curious if you really believe that the date can be calculated?

lol  ok retaliation---> :tongue:

Yes I do believe we should be able to calculate it, especially if we are getting close and especially since God doesn't do anything without telling his prophets first.  Not to mention getting rained on by radiation from the sky. :mblush:

Seems to me somebody might notice that there is something up already...These are not normal times...

[CHB]

I think both the physical and spiritual stuff is important. Without the physical how would you know what the spiritual was?

If God didn't think physical was important he wouldn't have sent Jesus Christ in the flesh. Actually when you think about it, it is the physical that saved us. Jesus took our physical sins on his physical body and destroyed them.

Maybe we can't figure out the exact dates to things but it is so much fun trying. Keep counting ww.  :happy3:

CHB

[Taffy]

For  mine Charlotte-- the Natural comes FIRST , then the SPIRITUAL-- as the Natural is the shadow of the spiritual Reality-- No one undermining it--- but the purpose is for US to SEE the SPIRITUAL in it :icon_flower:

[thinktank]

I understand threads go off-topic after a while. But check out this thread as an example. Not  even a single attempt to answer my OP.
wings quote

I agree that it is hard to keep good structure when a post jumps in and out of being literal and then symbolic. The difficulty often lies with ,that symbols can have infinite meanings and I prefer to keep things in a neat package, where the bible interprets the bible.

But Perhaps the blame lies with me for, provoking the "heavy setted" symbolist minded' to post. I tried to push them away,  :soap: but perhaps I did so inappropriately  :Ptuwee" so I apologize for all concerning. But I have no regrets, as this thread has developed into interesting conversation.  :skittles: :soccer: :swordfight:

[Taffy]

 :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

OK I just looked at the opening post lol.

I take the falling away literally.  It's happening now.  You can see it with your own eyes.

Is it possible the falling away was about the Jews?

That's very interesting.  I didn't know that half of the Jews converted to Christianity. wow.  I also think that prophecy applies to both 70 ad and to our times today [end of the age].  Reason being: the one is the echo of the other.  70 ad witnessed a huge change for this religion.  It's hard to appreciate it maybe, but to this day there is no Temple and the Levite priesthood is gone.  How strange is that? It's not like the Jews were strangers to exile, but this time their religion didn't come back.  It was changed.

  I believe the next change will be equally huge, when the spiritual becomes physical, and we are walking on the earth in glorified bodies.

God will make sure that everyone will know that He is God, this time as in the last.

[Molly]

This looks interesting:

A Study of the Book of Revelation

INTRODUCTION TO THE TEXT ANALYSIS

A proper understanding of this text analysis of the book of Revelation is dependent on knowledge of the material presented in the previous background studies. If you have not read through all of these background studies, the text analysis will not make sense. Please turn back to the main index and begin with Section I of the background information.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To look into the "future" as presented in the book of Revelation, we begin by going into the past. Revelation is a fulfillment of a prophecy found in the book of Daniel. The prophet depicts a period of time that will end with the establishment of the Kingdom of God:

Daniel 9:24 - `Seventy weeks are determined for your people, and for your holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.

There is a very deep, mystical, reference in the book of Daniel that has been overlooked in Bible commentaries. The following verses are well recognized as relating to the end times, particularly the "great tribulation" of the book of Revelation. The angel making this revelation to Daniel (which in fact started in the previous chapter), ends his statement by commenting that at the time of the end, many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased:

Daniel 12:1-4 - And at that time stand up does Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of your people, and there has been a time of distress, such as has not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do your people escape, every one who is found written in the book. `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever. And you, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end, many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.'
Typically, Bible commentaries and articles discussing the phrase, "many shall run to and fro," will point to the increase in global travel in the days we live in. They will state that never before have so many people taken airplanes and other modes of transport to move about all over the world.

But what does an increase in physical travel have to do with anything the angel is talking about to Daniel? The context of this passage is both spiritual and mystical. The key to understanding the phrase, "many do go to and fro," is at the end of the verse, where it says; knowledge is multiplied (shall be increased). Again, many commentaries, remarking on these words, will point to what technology is doing for us these days, and refer to facts such as how knowledge is doubling every two years, etc. All true and perhaps interesting - but again, this has nothing to do with what the angel is saying and how this verse should be understood.

Daniel's passage must be understood at the Sod (mystical) level of interpretation as that is where the meaning lies. The knowledge that the angel is speaking of is "spiritual knowledge." Just as God bestowed great insight at key times in history such as in the days of Abraham, Moses and Yeshua, He promises to do the same, in an even greater degree when the time of final redemption and atonement approaches.

Earlier in this study, we discussed the concept of "movement" in the spiritual realm. This is important in understanding the message the angel is conveying. The "going to and fro" has nothing to do with the physical realm. Rather, this "going" (or "running") is of the spiritual type, and can mean both, a) angels carrying out the will of God (descent), and, b) people "connecting" with God (ascent) in terms of gaining insight into the mysteries of Torah.

An understanding of the book of Revelation will illuminate the texts of the gospels, as well as much of what is found in the epistles. Revelation is not only a fulfillment of Daniel (as seen above), but also of: the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4); of Yeshua's example of prayer (as found in Matthew 6 and Luke 11, in what is called "the Lord's Prayer"); and of His own personal prayer to the Father, as seen in John, chapter 17. All of these Scriptures point to the establishment of God's Kingdom, the main lesson of the Bible and fulfillment of history, as shown in the book of Revelation.

With this study we tread on new ground, presenting an interpretation of the book of Revelation that views it as a Jewish mystical text, drawing from the many works of Torat ha-Sod, to assist us in learning its intended meaning.

These works, including the Zohar, the Bahir, Sefer Yetzirah, the book of Enoch, parts of the Talmud and Midrash Rabbah, along with the writings of such famous teachers as Nachmanides, are the first witness. They present evidence, made up of elements such as; Metatron, Tipheret, Melchizadek and the forty-two letter name of God, that point distinctly to an individual. The characteristics of this person fulfill the role of; Messiah, "Son of Yah," "sun of righteousness," the "middle pillar" (Jacob's ladder), enemy of haSatan, atonement of Israel, "living waters," bridegroom, High Priest, and above all -- the image of the invisible God.

The second witness is the historical testimony of the Talmud, which recognizes that something signficant occured 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple. From that date, for forty consecutive years, the Yom Kippur sacrifice was rejected by God:

Talmud - Mas. Yoma 39b- During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the westernmost light shine; and the doors of the Hekal would open by themselves

These two witnesses testify to someone, and to something occuring a certain time in history. When the book of Revelation, and the other texts of the "New Testament" are interpreted in light of Torat ha-Sod, there is one figure who emerges to "fill the mold" made by Jewish writers who lived both before and after he died -- forty years before the Temple was destroyed.

Hashem has marked the path for those who wish to be found by Him in these last days. May He guide us as we go forward with this study.

http://yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/text/intro.htm

[micah7:9]

Carnal stuff ahead. So Nathan and Taffy run and don't look back...

We are crucified with/in Christ. He was in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. Note that it's not exactly 72 hours. The first day and the last night theorectically can be anywhere between 1 second and 12 hours.
A day is like  a 1000 years. Meaning each 12 hours is 500 year.
2 days and 2 nights =  4x500=2000
The first day and the last night are of unknown duration. Somewhere between 0 and 1000 years.
That would bring the total to somewhere between 2031AD - 3031AD
:2c:

Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.

[Taffy]

Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.

WASNT HE was in a Grave- [Tomb] :icon_flower:

and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas  :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.

WASNT HE was in a Grave- [Tomb] :icon_flower:

and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas  :icon_flower:

So 3 days in the [heart of the] earth would equal your carnal man= 3 days in the grave, dead, =three days in the belly of the fish, beneath the sea,  cut off from God.

why have you forsaken me?

[Taffy]

what do you think the BELLYof the fish is Molly-- you may find its the soul= carnal mind= soulish man---- :thumbsup:  youll also find it relates to a FEMALE member too--  Pro 20:27   The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.   :thumbsup:  LIKEND to with the WOMB= our mind-WHICH TO BEAR seeds  :icon_flower:

[Molly]

Maybe so, but does the womb of the carnal man carry the seed?  Or is the seed planted there?

If the carnal mind is the female, then what is the male?

Paul says to take every thought captive.  For which cause we wear the helmet of salvation.  We carry the shield of faith to stop all the fiery darts of the wicked [one].  We wear the breastplate of righteousness.  All armor is worn on the outside to protect the body, to keep the wicked one out.

You say the man is haSatan, but I say they are two, who if they become of one mind, is likened to a snake eating its own tail.

It is our soul that He saves.


For what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?

--Mat 16:26

[WhiteWings]

Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.

WASNT HE was in a Grave- [Tomb] :icon_flower:

and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas  :icon_flower:

So 3 days in the [heart of the] earth would equal your carnal man= 3 days in the grave, dead, =three days in the belly of the fish, beneath the sea,  cut off from God.

Dust, earth, grave all have a secondary meaning of death/sin

why have you forsaken me?

Maybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...