ERRB2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive one seduce you by in any means manner : for that day shall not come because , except unless there come a falling away an apostatizing first, and that man human of sin be revealed unveiled , the son of perdition destruction ;
ERRB2 Peter 2
1 PSEUDO PROPHETS AND PSEUDO DOCTORS But there were false became pseudo prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers pseudo doctors among you, who privily shall bring in surreptitiously introduce damnable destructive heresies, even denying the Lord Despotes that bought marketed them, and bring upon themselves swift quick destruction.
ERRBMatthew 24
11 And many false pseudo prophets shall rise, and shall deceive seduce many.
It's often said that a sign of the "end times" is that many people are falling away.
In that case we are way beyond the end times and at the same time less fallen away than in majority of human history.
In the time before Jesus there were a few million Jews. The rest were pagans worshiping many gods.
After Jesus died the number of Christians grew and people slowly started to worship one instead of many gods.
Right now there is a lot of atheism but I think most religious people worship just one god now. So perhaps that's an improvement...?
I think Christianity was at it's hight during the time of the crusades. The 1960's marked sharp and still continuing) decline.
So as far as I'm concerned the fallen away has happened decades ago.
Maybe we should look much further back in time. 31-60AD.
Jesus was well known for His miracles and His blasphemy among the people of Jerusalem (and the region).
Historical records show that when He resurrected half of the Jews converted to Christianity. So did many Romans.
But the Jews expected that Jesus somehow would establish His kingdom and kick the Romans out.
But when Jesus didn't return within the expected time the Jews 'fell away' to their old religion because they assumed Jesus was a false Teacher after all.
Is it possible the falling away was about the Jews?
man human of sin be revealed unveiled , the son of perdition destruction ;
But who was this man of sin? and I want proper biblical answers, not trying to avoid the question with anologies and sweet sounding acronyms.
Quote from: thinktank on May 01, 2011, 10:22:39 PM
man human of sin be revealed unveiled , the son of perdition destruction ;
But who was this man of sin? and I want proper biblical answers, not trying to avoid the question with anologies and sweet sounding acronyms.
But who was this man of sinYOU - WHO INHERTIED THE NATURE OF our NATURAL Parents---
the carnal man \the man of sin- who else sits in HIS TEMPLE declaring himself GOD---- :
In context Taff. The carnal mind is not something that is revealed, that was revealed a long time ago, during the old testament, even during Genesis.
If Paul is speaking about Genesis, then he has done a good job at confusing millions of Christians.
He is warning about falling away and then the man of sin is revealed.
Your acronym may have a general truth to humanities condition, but it does not answer the question in this passage.
Quote from: thinktank on May 01, 2011, 11:02:16 PM
In context Taff. The carnal mind is not something that is revealed, that was revealed a long time ago, during the old testament, even during Genesis.
If Paul is speaking about Genesis, then he has done a good job at confusing millions of Christians.
He is warning about falling away and then the man of sin is revealed.
Your acronym may have a general truth to humanities condition, but it does not answer the question in this passage.
:2c: saul another of those serpents ,BORN of their father the liar and murderer FROM the BEGINNING---seems he mentions That the LORD was
revealed IN HIM, thus [b[ THE LAW]]showing HIM the man of SIN.- [/b] the SIN birthed by eve in the Garden- the LAW was to show MAN his SIN - lest he wouldnt have KNOWN what SIN was---
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid.
Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not
known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom 7:8
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.
For without the law sin [was] dead. Rom 7:9 For
I was alive without the law once: but when the
commandment came,
sin revived, and I died. Rom 7:10 And the
commandment, which [was ordained] to life, [
b]I found [to be] unto death. Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me,
and by it slew [me]. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
your man of SIN revealed------then romans 5
Rom 5:12 Wherefore,
as by one man sin entered
into the world, and
death by sin; and
so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 5:13 (
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom 5:14 Nevertheless
death reigned from
Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace
, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
now lets Check again whats """DEATH"is-- oh YES paul said this TOO-HERE TO IS THE CAUSE OF sin THE CARNAL MIND birthed in the GARDEN-
YOUR VERY MAN OF SIN Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is
] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
soFOR MINE- yes it is in scripture and paul never fooled a SOUL :icon_flower:
TT . .seriously, you're not going to find an answer to this if you're looking for a literal person. Look at all of the other prophecies men have attempted to articulate through natural reasonings. Why do you think there are so many denominations? So many different religions? And you think someone is going to give you an acceptable answer as to who the antichrist is? The answer is not outside of us, it's within us.
You say carnality has been revealed already . . .really? If that's the case then why do the majority of beleivers still embrace it? It can only be revealed through personal revelation from God WITHIN US.
Peter stood and said the famous "This is that" when addressing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit prophesied by Joel who said "in the last days" . . .which traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years. Really? So how are they going to fit the rest of this stuff in that 2,000 year window? In a sense (dimension) I do beleive it was the last days and we're in the last days, but the last days we're in now simply aren't the last days they were in then. I believe the last days Peter was referring to were the last days of the Old Covenant system . . . those who were to take these things literally, were the same which these things were literally written "to". For us now, the greater benefit is to see the message within the message.
It's beyond fussing over terms . . .allegories, analogies, dimensions, parables . . .they're all one and the same and they are what our spirit feeds on, not the literal intellect that our minds can't find any answers to in the first place. Truth can not be walked on because it doesn't lie on the surface. It can only be received to those who "press in" or "dig beneath" what lies on the surface and allow the Father to reveal the life that's within the message of ancient stories of men. Otherwise known as Scriptures.
Quotewhich traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years
A day is like a 1000 years.
We are still in the second day after crucificion.
Resurrection is at hand :winkgrin:
Actually, we're past the second day and in the dawning of the third.
Hu?
31+2000=2031
QuoteA day is like a 1000 years.
We are still in the second day after crucificion.
Resurrection is at hand
That's exciting!!
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 07:02:24 PM
Actually, we're past the second day and in the dawning of the third.
:icon_flower: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 06:55:32 PM
TT . .seriously, you're not going to find an answer to this if you're looking for a literal person. Look at all of the other prophecies men have attempted to articulate through natural reasonings. Why do you think there are so many denominations? So many different religions? And you think someone is going to give you an acceptable answer as to who the antichrist is? The answer is not outside of us, it's within us.
You say carnality has been revealed already . . .really? If that's the case then why do the majority of beleivers still embrace it? It can only be revealed through personal revelation from God WITHIN US.
Peter stood and said the famous "This is that" when addressing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit prophesied by Joel who said "in the last days" . . .which traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years. Really? So how are they going to fit the rest of this stuff in that 2,000 year window? In a sense (dimension) I do beleive it was the last days and we're in the last days, but the last days we're in now simply aren't the last days they were in then. I believe the last days Peter was referring to were the last days of the Old Covenant system . . . those who were to take these things literally, were the same which these things were literally written "to". For us now, the greater benefit is to see the message within the message.
It's beyond fussing over terms . . .allegories, analogies, dimensions, parables . . .they're all one and the same and they are what our spirit feeds on, not the literal intellect that our minds can't find any answers to in the first place. Truth can not be walked on because it doesn't lie on the surface. It can only be received to those who "press in" or "dig beneath" what lies on the surface and allow the Father to reveal the life that's within the message of ancient stories of men. Otherwise known as Scriptures.
In other words you don't believe that a man of sin will arise to dominate the world. That is fine, it is not exactly something I look forward too with open arms, another Hitler is not appealing, whether a man be rightoeus or unrightoeus it is a terrifying prospect, but for some reason God put the warnings in place, I'm not sure of His exact reason.
I ask to know the meaning of the man of sin in response to wings post, since he took the falling away to be literally, then I ask who is the man of sin during that time period of 31-60 AD, since the falling away scripture also includes details about a man of sin.
I think this is an article that would be good for everyone to read.
Understanding the Olivet Prophecy
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on May 04, 2011, 07:29:25 PM
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 06:55:32 PM
TT . .seriously, you're not going to find an answer to this if you're looking for a literal person. Look at all of the other prophecies men have attempted to articulate through natural reasonings. Why do you think there are so many denominations? So many different religions? And you think someone is going to give you an acceptable answer as to who the antichrist is? The answer is not outside of us, it's within us.
You say carnality has been revealed already . . .really? If that's the case then why do the majority of beleivers still embrace it? It can only be revealed through personal revelation from God WITHIN US.
Peter stood and said the famous "This is that" when addressing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit prophesied by Joel who said "in the last days" . . .which traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years. Really? So how are they going to fit the rest of this stuff in that 2,000 year window? In a sense (dimension) I do beleive it was the last days and we're in the last days, but the last days we're in now simply aren't the last days they were in then. I believe the last days Peter was referring to were the last days of the Old Covenant system . . . those who were to take these things literally, were the same which these things were literally written "to". For us now, the greater benefit is to see the message within the message.
It's beyond fussing over terms . . .allegories, analogies, dimensions, parables . . .they're all one and the same and they are what our spirit feeds on, not the literal intellect that our minds can't find any answers to in the first place. Truth can not be walked on because it doesn't lie on the surface. It can only be received to those who "press in" or "dig beneath" what lies on the surface and allow the Father to reveal the life that's within the message of ancient stories of men. Otherwise known as Scriptures.
In other words you don't believe that a man of sin will arise to dominate the world. That is fine, it is not exactly something I look forward too with open arms, another Hitler is not appealing, whether a man be rightoeus or unrightoeus it is a terrifying prospect, but for some reason God put the warnings in place, I'm not sure of His exact reason.
I ask to know the meaning of the man of sin in response to wings post, since he took the falling away to be literally, then I ask who is the man of sin during that time period of 60-70 AD, since the falling away scripture also includes details about a man of sin.
how about the MAN of sin has to fall within everyman in conjunction with the Rising\coming\appearing of the LORD? meaning what happens within US oppossed to LOOKING OUTSIDE of US:icon_flower:
Carnal stuff ahead. So Nathan and Taffy run and don't look back...
We are crucified with/in Christ. He was in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. Note that it's not exactly 72 hours. The first day and the last night theorectically can be anywhere between 1 second and 12 hours.
A day is like a 1000 years. Meaning each 12 hours is 500 year.
2 days and 2 nights = 4x500=2000
The first day and the last night are of unknown duration. Somewhere between 0 and 1000 years.
That would bring the total to somewhere between 2031AD - 3031AD
:2c:
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
Molly you have already waited patiently for a hundred years, what's another 20?
.........
Awaiting backlash,,- oh no tribulation has began :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 07:06:29 PM
Hu?
31+2000=2031
From Jesus time to the year 1000 . . .one day passed. From the year 1000 to the year 2000 . . . the second day PASSED
And seriously . . .this literal thinking is only going to lead to more confusion . . . you remember the story about when Jesus told the disciples "beware of the leven of the Pharisees . . ." and the disciples took him to literally rebuke them for forgetting to bring food with them . . . every time we try to make a spiritual truth fit to our natural reasoning, we do the same thing.
Jesus IS the DAY . . . the thousand years is not about a reference to time as much as it is to a positioning in our relationship with the Day. 1000 = 10x10x10 . . .the heights, depths and widths of the Love of God . . . why embrace the conclusions of the reasoning mind when all it leads to is more questions than answers. The idea of another Hitler coming on the scene . . .what does that invoke in us? What does "any" of the traditional concepts on the end times events invoke other than fear . . .destruction . . .death . . .where is the essence of God in any of that???
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
:laughing7:
well common sense says to me Tony--- have it CARNALor have it spiritual--either or--- :winkgrin: :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 08:47:00 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 07:06:29 PM
Hu?
31+2000=2031
From Jesus time to the year 1000 . . .one day passed. From the year 1000 to the year 2000 . . . the second day PASSED
And seriously . . .this literal thinking is only going to lead to more confusion . . . you remember the story about when Jesus told the disciples "beware of the leven of the Pharisees . . ." and the disciples took him to literally rebuke them for forgetting to bring food with them . . . every time we try to make a spiritual truth fit to our natural reasoning, we do the same thing.
Jesus IS the DAY . . . the thousand years is not about a reference to time as much as it is to a positioning in our relationship with the Day. 1000 = 10x10x10 . . .the heights, depths and widths of the Love of God . . . why embrace the conclusions of the reasoning mind when all it leads to is more questions than answers. The idea of another Hitler coming on the scene . . .what does that invoke in us? What does "any" of the traditional concepts on the end times events invoke other than fear . . .destruction . . .death . . .where is the essence of God in any of that???
The leven was the IFLATED ego of their carnal MIND---GIANTS in their OWN life TIME---
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
Where you end depends on where you start. So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.
Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 08:47:00 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 07:06:29 PM
Hu?
31+2000=2031
From Jesus time to the year 1000 . . .one day passed. From the year 1000 to the year 2000 . . . the second day PASSED
Problem is that Jesus didn't die in the year 0.
QuoteAnd seriously . . .this literal thinking is only going to lead to more confusion . . .
.....why embrace the conclusions of the reasoning mind when all it leads to is more questions than answers.
That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.
BTW: I don't think the natural reasoning of the Pharisees was what Jesus called leven...
It wasn't the natural reasoning of the Pharisees . . .it was the natural reasoning of the disciples. But I believe as you already are aware, that what Taf mentions . . .carnal/spiritual . . .it simplifies the whole message when you break it down to either spiritual truth, or natural/carnal reasoning. and WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:56:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
Where you end depends on where you start. So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.
Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:
My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 09:00:34 PMWW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?
That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.
I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 09:03:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:56:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
Where you end depends on where you start. So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.
Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:
My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016
wait a minute wait a minute
2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it. Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?
You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 09:03:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:56:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
Where you end depends on where you start. So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.
Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:
My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016
wait a minute wait a minute
2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it. Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?
You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:
Don't ask things you don't wanna hear.... 2037-2038 or less likely 2038-2039
1988-1989 was the last one.
2015-2016 is halfway and a regular Sabbath year.
Maybe we a cut off in the middle of the week of Sabbaths
ww why not count 2000 years from his birth instead of from his death?
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 09:03:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:56:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
Where you end depends on where you start. So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.
Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:
My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016
wait a minute wait a minute
2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it. Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?
You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:
I'm still waiting your retaliation, why suffer me to wait so long.
-----------
I'm curious if you really believe that the date can be calculated?
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 09:38:45 PM
ww why not count 2000 years from his birth instead of from his death?
1997
Good question.
If I would order the events in order of importance I would say: brith, ministry, resurrection
Ministry started on a Sabbath year (followed by a Jubilee year)
Death was halfway a cycle.
Birth had nothing to do with Sabbath cycles.
I think Sabbath and Jubilee are of great importance for several reasons. One of them is THIS post (http://this%20post)
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 09:06:55 PM
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 09:00:34 PMWW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?
That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.
I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...
Your response on post #23, you said . . .
That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.I really don't think I was making much of a stretch by my assessment. It's been the ongoing argument from the beginning. We frustrate each other because on side always shares out what they see symbolically while the other continues to reemphasize the literal.
The "reason" why "I" choose to lean heavily toward spiritual than natural is for one, it just lights me up more than proving something. But "in" that, I see how Scripture so strongly supports it in that it states that flesh profits nothing. Paul even spends a lot of time eluding to the "mysteries" and in Galatians 4 he even gives a perfect example of "how" he goes dimensional by referring to Isaac being born out of a womb of the free where as his brother was born out of a womb of slavery.
When sharing spiritual truths, it removes the need and desire to "prove" via verse and Scripture why you see what you see. No one questioned Peter's response to who he saw Jesus to be, even though they just explained how many people saw Jesus as many other forms . . .but what Peter saw was a direct revelation from God. he didn't "rely" on what he learned or what was being taught by other commentators of the day.
Jesus built his message on principles, not on tangibles. He built it on spiritual truth, not natural reasoning. So why would it be any different for us to desire the spiritual over the natural?
What did Paul MEAN to compare Spiritual with Spiritual , :icon_flower:
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 10:54:37 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 09:06:55 PM
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 09:00:34 PMWW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?
That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.
I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...
Your response on post #23, you said . . .
That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.
I really don't think I was making much of a stretch by my assessment. It's been the ongoing argument from the beginning. We frustrate each other because on side always shares out what they see symbolically while the other continues to reemphasize the literal.
That's your frustration. Mine is (partly) different.
My frustration is that literal threats get hijacked by spiritual stuff.
Quoteand WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance
I chalange you to find one post by me that even hints in that direction.
The Bible is a religious book. It would be insane to claim spiritual stuff isn't of higher importance that the literal stuff.
I would even say the spiritual stuff is of much more importance. Perhaps the only importance.
But:
- He who only understands the literal doesn't understand the Bible
- He who doesn't understand the literal doesn't understand the spiritual.
Or:
- If the literal isn't (fully) understood then (spiritual) spiritual can't be understood either.
The literal can be fully understood without understanding the slightest of the spiritual. But then you miss the whole point of the Bible.
The literal patterns are made to reveal the spiritual truth.
I see the Bible as a package deal.
:2c:
Quote from: Taffy on May 04, 2011, 11:08:13 PM
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
:thumbsup: for trying. Try harder next time :laughing7:
That verse has nothing to do with literal.
The literal things in the Bible are inspired by the very same Spirit that inspires the spiritual things.
Man's teaching is everything, spiritual and literal, that isn't in 100% accordance with what the HS teaches.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 11:54:15 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 04, 2011, 11:08:13 PM
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
:thumbsup: for trying. Try harder next time :laughing7:
That verse has nothing to do with literal.
The literal things in the Bible are inspired by the very same Spirit that inspires the spiritual things.
Man's teaching is everything, spiritual and literal, that isn't in 100% accordance with what the HS teaches.
:2c:
Ive never stated we THROW the literal out the pram--- EVER--- ,THE fact remains- that Literal as in Natural UNDERSTANDING are ONE level- but the HIGHER plain is the SPIRITUAL- The Natural man is where your at Tony trying to DISCERN spiritual Truths WITH NATURAL man Wisdom comparing the Natural with the Natural[ IN THIS particular case]---- FOLK have been doing it for yrs-- thryng to access the EXACT time and date of His DEATH and resurrection--- who REALLY cares? just some smart bloke who believe hes worked it all out- for what? its the TRUTH which rises above the Balck and white which Matters- LEST Christ would have spoke Like natural men - \literal by Natural Take and NOT PARABLES--- ya to smart to understand this Bud--- :icon_flower:
again folk for centuries LIKE you have it all worked out BY plan and Method- who then By resonable loggic SET A DATE--- then WOOPS!--- lol :mblush: TIME to move on me thinks- have a Good day Bud
Quote from: Taffy on May 05, 2011, 12:04:38 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 11:54:15 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 04, 2011, 11:08:13 PM
1Cr 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
:thumbsup: for trying. Try harder next time :laughing7:
That verse has nothing to do with literal.
The literal things in the Bible are inspired by the very same Spirit that inspires the spiritual things.
Man's teaching is everything, spiritual and literal, that isn't in 100% accordance with what the HS teaches.
:2c:
Ive never stated we THROW the literal out the pram--- EVER--- ,
True. But whenever a literal thread is started it gets so often taken off-topic. And you are always very nearby when that happens :hammerhead:
I understand threads go off-topic after a while. But check out this thread as an example. Not even a single attempt to answer my OP.
QuoteTHE fact remains- that Literal as in Natural UNDERSTANDING are ONE level- but the HIGHER plain is the SPIRITUAL-
The other fact is that a chirurgeon without education is called a butcher....
QuoteThe Natural man is where your at Tony trying to DISCERN spiritual Truths WITH NATURAL man Wisdom
Wrong. I try to see natural pattern and then find spiritual patterns that align. I'm trying to discern spiritual truth by inspired natural writings.
You seem to thing natural equals manmade. (not sure if you truely don't see that of just putting up a strawman) I disagree with that because if the Bible is inspired then the natural Sodom really burned down. That inspired natural fact is equally true as the most advanced spiritual teaching.
And yes.. I fully accept that literal event does have between 1 and 777 zillion spiritual meanings.
Quotecomparing the Natural with the Natural[ IN THIS particular case]---- FOLK have been doing it for yrs-- thryng to access the EXACT time and date of His DEATH and resurrection--- who REALLY cares?
Who cares what the spiritual says? It's equally meaningles to know. It changes nothing.
And I can tell you from experience that figuring out dates is far more than adding numbers. You can't figure out a single date without learning a lot of stuff along the way.
Quotejust some smart bloke who believe hes worked it all out- for what?
Just mention a single spiritual post of you that matters. None of them matters. Unless you believe they somehow change God's plan.
Quoteits the TRUTH which rises above the Balck and white which Matters
That's only part of the truth.
Truth rises out of black and white. False teachings rise out of grey.
Quoteagain folk for centuries LIKE you have it all worked out BY plan and Method- who then By resonable loggic SET A DATE--- then WOOPS!--- lol
I'm not setting any date. I'm just writing what I found. I truely don't care if Revelation was in 70BC, 70AD or 9999999AD
But for me one thing is sure. If the dates are not in the Bible then the whole Bible is false....
QuoteTIME to move on me thinks- have a Good day Bud
Nasty things those uphill battles :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: thinktank on May 04, 2011, 09:48:52 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 09:08:56 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 09:03:26 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:56:18 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:47:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 04, 2011, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: ww2031AD - 3031AD
Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years. Recalculate.
Maybe you meant 20 months?
It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well :winkgrin:
Where you end depends on where you start. So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.
Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:
My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016
wait a minute wait a minute
2008 plus 3.5 years of tribulation would do it. Do you happen to know when the next Jubilee year would be?
You are going to miss me when I'm gone. :winkgrin:
I'm still waiting your retaliation, why suffer me to wait so long.
-----------
I'm curious if you really believe that the date can be calculated?
lol ok retaliation---> :tongue:
Yes I do believe we should be able to calculate it, especially if we are getting close and especially since God doesn't do anything without telling his prophets first. Not to mention getting rained on by radiation from the sky. :mblush:
Seems to me somebody might notice that there is something up already...These are not normal times...
I think both the physical and spiritual stuff is important. Without the physical how would you know what the spiritual was?
If God didn't think physical was important he wouldn't have sent Jesus Christ in the flesh. Actually when you think about it, it is the physical that saved us. Jesus took our physical sins on his physical body and destroyed them.
Maybe we can't figure out the exact dates to things but it is so much fun trying. Keep counting ww. :happy3:
CHB
For mine Charlotte-- the Natural comes FIRST , then the SPIRITUAL-- as the Natural is the shadow of the spiritual Reality-- No one undermining it--- but the purpose is for US to SEE the SPIRITUAL in it :icon_flower:
I understand threads go off-topic after a while. But check out this thread as an example. Not even a single attempt to answer my OP.
wings quote
I agree that it is hard to keep good structure when a post jumps in and out of being literal and then symbolic. The difficulty often lies with ,that symbols can have infinite meanings and I prefer to keep things in a neat package, where the bible interprets the bible.
But Perhaps the blame lies with me for, provoking the "heavy setted" symbolist minded' to post. I tried to push them away, :soap: but perhaps I did so inappropriately :Ptuwee" so I apologize for all concerning. But I have no regrets, as this thread has developed into interesting conversation. :skittles: :soccer: :swordfight:
:HeartThrob:
OK I just looked at the opening post lol.
I take the falling away literally. It's happening now. You can see it with your own eyes.
QuoteIs it possible the falling away was about the Jews?
That's very interesting. I didn't know that half of the Jews converted to Christianity. wow. I also think that prophecy applies to both 70 ad and to our times today [end of the age]. Reason being: the one is the echo of the other. 70 ad witnessed a huge change for this religion. It's hard to appreciate it maybe, but to this day there is no Temple and the Levite priesthood is gone. How strange is that? It's not like the Jews were strangers to exile, but this time their religion didn't come back. It was changed.
I believe the next change will be equally huge, when the spiritual becomes physical, and we are walking on the earth in glorified bodies.
God will make sure that everyone will know that He is God, this time as in the last.
This looks interesting:
A Study of the Book of Revelation
INTRODUCTION TO THE TEXT ANALYSIS
A proper understanding of this text analysis of the book of Revelation is dependent on knowledge of the material presented in the previous background studies. If you have not read through all of these background studies, the text analysis will not make sense. Please turn back to the main index and begin with Section I of the background information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To look into the "future" as presented in the book of Revelation, we begin by going into the past. Revelation is a fulfillment of a prophecy found in the book of Daniel. The prophet depicts a period of time that will end with the establishment of the Kingdom of God:
Daniel 9:24 - `Seventy weeks are determined for your people, and for your holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
There is a very deep, mystical, reference in the book of Daniel that has been overlooked in Bible commentaries. The following verses are well recognized as relating to the end times, particularly the "great tribulation" of the book of Revelation. The angel making this revelation to Daniel (which in fact started in the previous chapter), ends his statement by commenting that at the time of the end, many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased:
Daniel 12:1-4 - And at that time stand up does Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of your people, and there has been a time of distress, such as has not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do your people escape, every one who is found written in the book. `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever. And you, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end, many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.'
Typically, Bible commentaries and articles discussing the phrase, "many shall run to and fro," will point to the increase in global travel in the days we live in. They will state that never before have so many people taken airplanes and other modes of transport to move about all over the world.
But what does an increase in physical travel have to do with anything the angel is talking about to Daniel? The context of this passage is both spiritual and mystical. The key to understanding the phrase, "many do go to and fro," is at the end of the verse, where it says; knowledge is multiplied (shall be increased). Again, many commentaries, remarking on these words, will point to what technology is doing for us these days, and refer to facts such as how knowledge is doubling every two years, etc. All true and perhaps interesting - but again, this has nothing to do with what the angel is saying and how this verse should be understood.
Daniel's passage must be understood at the Sod (mystical) level of interpretation as that is where the meaning lies. The knowledge that the angel is speaking of is "spiritual knowledge." Just as God bestowed great insight at key times in history such as in the days of Abraham, Moses and Yeshua, He promises to do the same, in an even greater degree when the time of final redemption and atonement approaches.
Earlier in this study, we discussed the concept of "movement" in the spiritual realm. This is important in understanding the message the angel is conveying. The "going to and fro" has nothing to do with the physical realm. Rather, this "going" (or "running") is of the spiritual type, and can mean both, a) angels carrying out the will of God (descent), and, b) people "connecting" with God (ascent) in terms of gaining insight into the mysteries of Torah.
An understanding of the book of Revelation will illuminate the texts of the gospels, as well as much of what is found in the epistles. Revelation is not only a fulfillment of Daniel (as seen above), but also of: the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4); of Yeshua's example of prayer (as found in Matthew 6 and Luke 11, in what is called "the Lord's Prayer"); and of His own personal prayer to the Father, as seen in John, chapter 17. All of these Scriptures point to the establishment of God's Kingdom, the main lesson of the Bible and fulfillment of history, as shown in the book of Revelation.
With this study we tread on new ground, presenting an interpretation of the book of Revelation that views it as a Jewish mystical text, drawing from the many works of Torat ha-Sod, to assist us in learning its intended meaning.
These works, including the Zohar, the Bahir, Sefer Yetzirah, the book of Enoch, parts of the Talmud and Midrash Rabbah, along with the writings of such famous teachers as Nachmanides, are the first witness. They present evidence, made up of elements such as; Metatron, Tipheret, Melchizadek and the forty-two letter name of God, that point distinctly to an individual. The characteristics of this person fulfill the role of; Messiah, "Son of Yah," "sun of righteousness," the "middle pillar" (Jacob's ladder), enemy of haSatan, atonement of Israel, "living waters," bridegroom, High Priest, and above all -- the image of the invisible God.
The second witness is the historical testimony of the Talmud, which recognizes that something signficant occured 40 years prior to the destruction of the second Temple. From that date, for forty consecutive years, the Yom Kippur sacrifice was rejected by God:
Talmud - Mas. Yoma 39b- During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the westernmost light shine; and the doors of the Hekal would open by themselves
These two witnesses testify to someone, and to something occuring a certain time in history. When the book of Revelation, and the other texts of the "New Testament" are interpreted in light of Torat ha-Sod, there is one figure who emerges to "fill the mold" made by Jewish writers who lived both before and after he died -- forty years before the Temple was destroyed.
Hashem has marked the path for those who wish to be found by Him in these last days. May He guide us as we go forward with this study.
http://yashanet.com/studies/revstudy/text/intro.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 08:23:47 PM
Carnal stuff ahead. So Nathan and Taffy run and don't look back...
We are crucified with/in Christ. He was in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. Note that it's not exactly 72 hours. The first day and the last night theorectically can be anywhere between 1 second and 12 hours.
A day is like a 1000 years. Meaning each 12 hours is 500 year.
2 days and 2 nights = 4x500=2000
The first day and the last night are of unknown duration. Somewhere between 0 and 1000 years.
That would bring the total to somewhere between 2031AD - 3031AD
:2c:
Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.
Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.
WASNT HE was in a Grave- [Tomb] :icon_flower:
and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on May 05, 2011, 11:55:28 AM
Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.
WASNT HE was in a Grave- [Tomb] :icon_flower:
and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas :icon_flower:
So 3 days in the [heart of the] earth would equal your carnal man= 3 days in the grave, dead, =three days in the belly of the fish, beneath the sea, cut off from God.
why have you forsaken me?
what do you think the BELLYof the fish is Molly-- you may find its the soul= carnal mind= soulish man---- :thumbsup: youll also find it relates to a FEMALE member too-- Pro 20:27 The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly. :thumbsup: LIKEND to with the WOMB= our mind-WHICH TO BEAR seeds :icon_flower:
Maybe so, but does the womb of the carnal man carry the seed? Or is the seed planted there?
If the carnal mind is the female, then what is the male?
Paul says to take every thought captive. For which cause we wear the helmet of salvation. We carry the shield of faith to stop all the fiery darts of the wicked [one]. We wear the breastplate of righteousness. All armor is worn on the outside to protect the body, to keep the wicked one out.
You say the man is haSatan, but I say they are two, who if they become of one mind, is likened to a snake eating its own tail.
It is our soul that He saves.
For what do you benefit if you gain the whole world but lose your own soul? Is anything worth more than your soul?
--Mat 16:26
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 01:39:24 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 05, 2011, 11:55:28 AM
Was it not that He was 3 days "in the earth?" Nothing is said about being in the grave, is there? I believe that will make a difference in our understanding.
WASNT HE was in a Grave- [Tomb] :icon_flower:
and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas :icon_flower:
So 3 days in the [heart of the] earth would equal your carnal man= 3 days in the grave, dead, =three days in the belly of the fish, beneath the sea, cut off from God.
Dust, earth, grave all have a secondary meaning of death/sin
Quotewhy have you forsaken me?
Maybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...
I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm. Any one have an idea? Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.
CHB
Quote from: wwMaybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...
So what might the translation be?
Eli,G2241 Eli,G2241 lamaG2982 sabachthani?G4518 that is to say,G5123 MyG3450 God,G2316 myG3450 God,G2316 whyG2444 hast thou forsakenG1459 me?G3165
"forsaken" [me]
G4518
σαβαχθανί
sabachthanisab-akh-than-ee'
Of Chaldee origin [H7662] with pronominal suffix;
thou hast left me; sabachthani (that is, shebakthani), a cry of distress: - sabachthani.
G1459
ἐγκαταλείπω
egkataleipōeng-kat-al-i'-po
From G1722 and G2641;
to leave behind in some place, that is, (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad one)
to desert: - forsake, leave.
Quote from: CHB on May 05, 2011, 03:00:16 PM
I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm. Any one have an idea? Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.
CHB
Sometimes when you post others have posted while you are writing your post. If so, it will not record your post unless you hit post button twice because it wants to give you a chance to respond to a new message. So when you post, you just have to make sure that it took your post, otherwise red language will come up warning you that others have responded and do you still want to post that?
Quote from: CHB on May 05, 2011, 03:00:16 PM
I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm. Any one have an idea? Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.
CHB
Charlotte- ALL deleted posts go in the rcycle bin--THIS box IS not visible to any other then Mods-- ive checked and theres no posts of youRS--so I havent a Clue what may have happened to them--- if they had been deleted then they WOULD show in this BOX :dontknow:
Quote from: Taffy on May 05, 2011, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 05, 2011, 03:00:16 PM
I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm. Any one have an idea? Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.
CHB
Charlotte- ALL deleted posts go in the rcycle bin--THIS box IS not visible to any other then Mods-- ive checked and theres no posts of youRS--so I havent a Clue what may have happened to them--- if they had been deleted then they WOULD show in this BOX :dontknow:
They weren't deleted. They probably just never posted.
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: wwMaybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...
So what might the translation be?
Spared.
..... this is what you spared me for.
or
..... this is my life's purpose.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 05, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: wwMaybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...
So what might the translation be?
Spared.
..... this is what you spared me for.
or
..... this is my life's purpose.
Where do you get that?
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 03:10:33 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 05, 2011, 03:00:16 PM
I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm. Any one have an idea? Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.
CHB
Sometimes when you post others have posted while you are writing your post. If so, it will not record your post unless you hit post button twice because it wants to give you a chance to respond to a new message. So when you post, you just have to make sure that it took your post, otherwise red language will come up warning you that others have responded and do you still want to post that?
The red warning can be switched off.
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 05, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: wwMaybe that translation isn't entirely correct...
So what might the translation be?
Spared.
..... this is what you spared me for.
or
..... this is my life's purpose.
Where do you get that?
Lamsa.
http://www.lamsabible.com/http://www.therefinersfire.org/forsaken_me.htmhttp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread670002/pg1Just Google for: why have you forsaken me wrong translation
or
why have you forsaken me lamsa
I find it a logical translation.
It was His life's purpose.
He knew why He was there.
I doubt God abandoned Him.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 05, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 03:18:08 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 05, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 05, 2011, 03:07:43 PM
Quote from: wwMaybe that translation isn't entirely correct...
So what might the translation be?
Spared.
..... this is what you spared me for.
or
..... this is my life's purpose.
Where do you get that?
Lamsa.
http://www.lamsabible.com/
http://www.therefinersfire.org/forsaken_me.htm
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread670002/pg1
Just Google for: why have you forsaken me wrong translation
or
why have you forsaken me lamsa
I find it a logical translation.
It was His life's purpose.
He knew why He was there.
I doubt God abandoned Him.
But the King James gives the aramaic word, sabachthani, and defines it as, forsaken.
Forsaken makes sense to me.
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani. This is regarded by more conservative scholars as a quotation in Aramaic of the opening of Psalm 22, which in English is "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This is similar to how the psalm appears in the Aramaic Pecrapta Old Testament and it appears in earlier Aramaic Targums.
Aramaic grammars and dictionaries,[5] disagree with Lamsa's assertion about Jesus' last words, as the word שבקתני [shvaqtani] in Aramaic is the perfect 2nd person singular form of the verb שבק [shvaq] which means "to leave, to leave s.t. left over, to abandon," or "to permit"[6] with the 1st person singular pronoun affixed. This would, in turn, cause the phrase to translate as "why have you left me?" "why have you let me be?" "why have you abandoned me?"--Wikipedia
I know all that Molly.
BTW it's not so certain anymore the NT was written in Aramaic. Likely it was written in real Hebrew.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 11:41:45 PM
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 10:54:37 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 04, 2011, 09:06:55 PM
Quote from: Nathan on May 04, 2011, 09:00:34 PMWW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?
That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.
I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...
Your response on post #23, you said . . .
That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.
I really don't think I was making much of a stretch by my assessment. It's been the ongoing argument from the beginning. We frustrate each other because on side always shares out what they see symbolically while the other continues to reemphasize the literal.
That's your frustration. Mine is (partly) different.
My frustration is that literal threats get hijacked by spiritual stuff.
Quoteand WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance
I chalange you to find one post by me that even hints in that direction.
The Bible is a religious book. It would be insane to claim spiritual stuff isn't of higher importance that the literal stuff.
I would even say the spiritual stuff is of much more importance. Perhaps the only importance.
But:
- He who only understands the literal doesn't understand the Bible
- He who doesn't understand the literal doesn't understand the spiritual.
Or:
- If the literal isn't (fully) understood then (spiritual) spiritual can't be understood either.
The literal can be fully understood without understanding the slightest of the spiritual. But then you miss the whole point of the Bible.
The literal patterns are made to reveal the spiritual truth.
I see the Bible as a package deal.
:2c:
This thread is a prime example. You asked a question pertaining to the falling away topic. The supposition is that it's men falling away from God. My position is that it's not men falling away but it's a veil "in" men that is falling away that is revealing the fact that men have been under the leadership and bondage of "man" in men.
Yet it's not the answer most are looking for . . .people are still wanting a name of an individual . . .as in a 'literal" person. And as is the case with almost all these matters . . .there is simply no indication in any of Scripture that implies the prophecies are to be applied thousands of years later. Jesus stated it would be "that generation" and John wrote the book was to be left open because the "time was at hand". Yet many ignore what's written because they've already convinced themselves everything revolves around "my" generation.
Yet for me, the only thing that affects "this" generation now is the spiritual applications. And . . .Like Taffy, I've never said we should throw out the natural, "use" the natural as a sign to point us to the spiritual . . .but in the end, it's the spiritual that gives us life and strength and hunger. If anything, it appears many want to throw out hte spiritual and just focus on the natural.
:icon_flower:
For judgment I am come into this world,[ within MAN] as HE is spirit and LIFE, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. :thumbsup:
This reminds me of the parable of the four soils . . .the disciples didn't get that one either. So when they were alone with Jesus, they brought it back up again and his question to them was really key. He stated, "if you can't see the message in that one, which is simplistic in nature, how are you going to understand any other teachings I share with you?
In otherwords, if you can't find any spiritual value in the elementary truths, how are you going to receive the deeper things that I want to give you?
Even then the people wanted proof . . they wanted a sign and Jesus told them the only sign he'd give them is to remind them of the LITERAL experience Jonah had . . .he was in the belly of a big fish for three days . . .three is directly connected with RESURRECTION . . .which was Jesus' purpose . . to bring us resurrection life. And if you read the actual story, Jonah calls it a prison . . . everyone will be quick to admit their minds are limited in understanding, but not so many are as willing to lay down the limitations of understanding and merely "receive" revelational truth.
Molly, you'd asked about whether or not our minds are the seed carriers and if our mind represents our woman, what is our man . . first, no, my mind is not the "carrier". It's the "incubater" of the seed that is "planted" in the womb through the proper order of relationship as a woman submits to a man in acts of intimacy to allow his seed to enter her, so our mind is to be in submission to our SPIRIT (that's who the man in us is) so that the seed of promise and covenant can be passed from our spirit man into our conciousness . . our minds . . .and that's where understanding then is BIRTHED. Spiritual truth is not taught, nor is it learned . . .but it is birthed once the spiritual alignment in us is in the established order of God . . the purpose for all of this for spiritual reproduction. Our minds don't produce life, it only incubates and births the seeds of life planted in it.
Amen Nat-- Christ is the Glory of God [ REVEALED IN US] who IS The SPIRIT OF TRUTH\WISDOM who rises within as In the Glory of the LORD WHO filled the Tabernalce- The TRUTH of God MUST be revealed to the INNER [BEING] :thumbsup:
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
FOR MINE THE Truth is concealed IN ALL MEN-- awaiting to be revealed----The GLORY OF GOD is the REVEALING of his GOD'S CONCEALED TRUTH in US :icon_flower:
And THAT is the LITERAL truth! :bigGrin:
Quote from: Taffy on May 05, 2011, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: CHB on May 05, 2011, 03:00:16 PM
I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm. Any one have an idea? Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.
CHB
Charlotte- ALL deleted posts go in the rcycle bin--THIS box IS not visible to any other then Mods-- ive checked and theres no posts of youRS--so I havent a Clue what may have happened to them--- if they had been deleted then they WOULD show in this BOX :dontknow:
As Molly said, I may have posted when someone else did and that is why it was not posted. I know a red box comes up with a warning that someone else posted but I am not perfect and maybe I didn't see it. Oh well. Forgive my ignoramous. :laughing7: :happy3:
CHB
You should post more chb, I enjoy reading your posts.
Quote from: Nathan on May 05, 2011, 05:45:17 PM
This reminds me of the parable of the four soils . . .the disciples didn't get that one either. So when they were alone with Jesus, they brought it back up again and his question to them was really key. He stated, "if you can't see the message in that one, which is simplistic in nature, how are you going to understand any other teachings I share with you?
In otherwords, if you can't find any spiritual value in the elementary truths, how are you going to receive the deeper things that I want to give you?
Even then the people wanted proof . . they wanted a sign and Jesus told them the only sign he'd give them is to remind them of the LITERAL experience Jonah had . . .he was in the belly of a big fish for three days . . .three is directly connected with RESURRECTION . . .which was Jesus' purpose . . to bring us resurrection life. And if you read the actual story, Jonah calls it a prison . . . everyone will be quick to admit their minds are limited in understanding, but not so many are as willing to lay down the limitations of understanding and merely "receive" revelational truth.
Molly, you'd asked about whether or not our minds are the seed carriers and if our mind represents our woman, what is our man . . first, no, my mind is not the "carrier". It's the "incubater" of the seed that is "planted" in the womb through the proper order of relationship as a woman submits to a man in acts of intimacy to allow his seed to enter her, so our mind is to be in submission to our SPIRIT (that's who the man in us is) so that the seed of promise and covenant can be passed from our spirit man into our conciousness . . our minds . . .and that's where understanding then is BIRTHED. Spiritual truth is not taught, nor is it learned . . .but it is birthed once the spiritual alignment in us is in the established order of God . . the purpose for all of this for spiritual reproduction. Our minds don't produce life, it only incubates and births the seeds of life planted in it.
That's all and good, but this forum is not a symbolist forum, it is a forum to discuss UR or more importantly Jesus. There are many here who like to discuss symbolic truth such as yourself, while others here discuss it now and again. But I don't see why you are so against literal interpretation, as this is discussed and spoken of throughout the whole bible. Paul did speak of mysteries, but he also spoke about natural truths mirroring the spiritual. Discussing natural truth as you call it, brings people together to discuss who Jesus is. Perhaps you need to realize that not all people have the same mindset as you, but to call others who have a different mindset carnal, I don't believe you are seing things clearly, neither do I think that this is something the holy spirit is revealing to you but something that your natural preferences prefer.
As this is a Jesus centered forum and the people here have a huge amount of knowledge, revelation and maturity in their posts, I find it difficult to believe that the holy spirit has told you that we are carnally minded, thus I believe that most of it stems from your own natural preferences, coming from a artistic symbolic mindset, which is not entirely exclusive to a follower of Jesus as you might think, many people outside of God have a similar manner of speaking, I have read hundreds of posts, articles from non believers telling me the spiritual meaning of the symbols of revelation, which a lot of the times brings confusion to the true meaning of the symbols etc, so ironically perhaps you are the one that is being carnal naturally minded for judging the brethren outside of Gods revelation.
Don't misinterpret judgment for differences of opinion . . . I've not condemned anyone. I've merely shared what I see and then have pushed back when others disregard what I'm seeing, that's all this is. We all have the ability to share what we see and then to question other's opinions for clarification so long as we keep things above reproach, which, even though we clearly disagree on a number of issues, no one is really demeaning anyone else.
As far as you basing your assessment of me from your past experiences with others . . . how can you claim individuality in Christ and yet peg people under group titles? We're all UR on one level or another, but even in that, none of us really have the same exact take on what UR really is.
Look . . . when we spend all of our time "proving" facts "about" Christ, how is that not based on natural reasoning?
For instance . . .take Abraham and Sarah . . . I'm sure most are aware of one of his traits being whenever he felt threatened he would have his wife tell people she was his sister. But Abimelek comes along and they do their thing so he thinks he can have Sarah for himself . . .but then God shows up . . .and long story short, because Abimelek had the "intent" to sleep with Sarah . . .even though he didn't and even though he was well within his reasons . . .but because he even made the attempt, God closed up the wombs of his entire household.
Now . . .you tell me, which is more nourshing to our inner man . . . dissecting the literal story, or receiving the spiritual principle of what God was doing behind the scenes, beneath the surface the entire time?
Because if I just wanted to block out the spiritual and emphasize the natural story, I'd totally miss the fact that what Abraham was doing was self-preservation . . .he was afraid of being killed so he lied about his relationship. And as a result of selfpreservation, he brought a curse on to those he encountered . . .His personal self-preservation caused others to lose their ability to reproduce . . .spiritually speaking . . .
That speaks so much more to my spirit than just trying to imagine how the literal story played out. Everything has internal significance.
Your conclusions of me have also fallen short because you don't know that I "used" to be as funamental as they come. I was very strongly opinionated about the idea that if it's not written in Scripture then it's not of God. What you see "now" is a transformation of who I used to be. And what you also don't wee is who I'm yet to become. "This" place where we are now is merely a snapshot of where we are and who we are in Christ. None of us are fully perfected yet.
TT: :thumbsup:
Nathan: It's all about courtesy. You will reap what you sow.
Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:
Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning[1].
Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.
Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a "hint" is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word.
Some thinkers, such as the Tolaat Yaakov, divide Pardes into Peshat, Remez, Din (law), and Sod. According to this understanding, Derash is divided into the homiletics, which are classified under Remez, and legal interpretations, which are classified under Din.
The Pardes typology is quite similar to the contemporary Christian fourfold allegorical scheme.
but this forum is not a symbolist forum, it is a forum to discuss UR or more importantly Jesus
PLEASE- where ON this Board declares this statement TO BE TRUE-?
YOU just may find that the central theme of all mystical, symbolic posts is CHRIST - HOW more Central can they BE?
Symbolism\mystersism is here to stay guys-- Fine if your not blessed-- NO worries---- - personally im led to continually post in this MANNER not purely for the person who one may be discussing with[ as some just ignore you-lol :laughing7: ]-- but for Lurkers and those who come to read----
May ASK you all NOW to stop - ENOUGH has been said--- lets leave it and move on---- and dont let this divide the Board---TY ALL :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on May 05, 2011, 10:30:25 PMMay ASK you all NOW to stop - ENOUGH has been said--- lets leave it and move on---- and dont let this divide the Board---TY ALL :icon_flower:
Leaving it alone is the cause of division.
But no problem. I'll no longer have the basic courtesy to at least try to post a little on topic. I'll pollute threads that are intended to be spiritual minded with as much carnal stuff as I can think about. Just following your example.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 05, 2011, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: Taffy on May 05, 2011, 10:30:25 PMMay ASK you all NOW to stop - ENOUGH has been said--- lets leave it and move on---- and dont let this divide the Board---TY ALL :icon_flower:
Leaving it alone is the cause of division.
But no problem. I'll no longer have the basic courtesy to at least try to post a little on topic. I'll pollute threads that are intended to be spiritual minded with as much carnal stuff as I can think about. Just following your example.
TY Tony at least you declared your INTENT--- :sigh:
I'll go one better . . . I'll just back away from the boards all togther and you guys can be free without my interrupting the topic.
Quote from: jabcat on May 06, 2011, 10:16:28 AM
Quote from: thinktank on May 05, 2011, 09:26:00 PM
it is a forum to discuss UR or more importantly Jesus.
:2thumbs:
Been EXTREMELY busy lately, check in a time or two a day. Thanks everyone for keeping it pretty civil, even in disagreement - and thanks Taf for being the "active mod" lately... :mblush:
I stress again James- the entirety of this statement is NOT TRUE-
but this forum is not a symbolist forum, it is a forum to discuss UR or more importantly Jesus
If this is NOT a symbolic forum amid the Natural black and white take- I strongly suggest we all BECOME ETRS-- as surely this FIRE being the LAKE is a NATURAL ONE---- :sigh:
PMD YO James :icon_flower: