Faith, works and grace

[rosered]

 

I  think many  are not sure of the 1000 year reign

Peter touched on the ignorance  of so many and not wanting to leave those  who believe in the dark / ignorance and stated     ,  2Pe 3:7   But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 


2Pe 3:8   But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 
2Pe 3:9   The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 


2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 


  It does NOT say ungodly  men are burned up  forever but the works  are!!

2Pe 3:11   Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 


2Pe 3:12   Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 


2Pe 3:13   Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.    

God it is   a Day  /1000 year and we know God only created   7 days 
and consider  the children of the DAY   /Light  are those  shining by the Knowledge of God though Jesus Christ .

I find only  2 places kolassis is used   in the bible
Mat 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

  but what about the new heavens and earth    for those    made rightous in Jesus Christ  and those works of the  old heavens and earth  are  burned up  in the DAY OF GOD 
  Will that eternal punishment  / works of old    end  than ?
  1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.


Please ,  when we think of eternal  ,  its  forever  .
That is what stumps everyone !   and it did me for  alot of years .
Yet the Lord Himself said there will be an END ???

  when satan/ adversary  is divided against   satan / adversary ,  HE CANNOT STAND but  has an end

when the  Lord  God said  the end of all flesh   as the days of Noah  by the water ,  so Peter was saying the same  the end of all flesh   would  also come to an end  as by Fire .
  Jesus come to divide   and take the peace from the world  by setting it on   FIRE Luke  12 ; 49
  these works of the flesh are  being burned up and dissolved

  I BELIEVE JESUS WORDS 49 "I have come to set the world on fire, and I wish it were already burning! 50 I have a terrible baptism of suffering ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished. 51 Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! 52 From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against—or two in favor and three against.

53 'Father will be divided against son
    and son against father;
mother against daughter
    and daughter against mother;
and mother-in-law against daughter-in-law
    and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.'"

54 Then Jesus turned to the crowd and said, "When you see clouds beginning to form in the west, you say, 'Here comes a shower.' And you are right. 55 When the south wind blows, you say, 'Today will be a scorcher.' And it is. 56 You fools! You know how to interpret the weather signs of the earth and sky, but you don't know how to interpret the present times.



Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.



Rom 14:7   For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself. 

For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:


whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


But why doyou  judge your  brother? or why do you  set at nought your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.  


1Cr 15:24 Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cr 15:26   The  last enemy is death

   we know  hell and death are cast into the LAKE OF FIRE   

  and this is GODS perfect work to destry  hell / grave and death     

Isaiah Isa 28:13   But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 


Isa 28:14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 


Isa 28:15   Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 


Isa 28:16 ¶ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 


Isa 28:17   Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 


Isa 28:18   And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 


Isa 28:19   From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 


Isa 28:20 ¶ For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 


  These are the scriptures to me that support    JESUS COME   TO DO THE PERFECT WILL OF GOD 
and no man can  stop this work of God   though Jesus Christ

  the begining was Christ and the end as  well

[Tom]

I get that Tom. However, the word "believers" is a fuzzy thing sometimes. James said, "You believe that God is one? The devils believe as well and tremble".

The idea being(as I see it)- that recognizing Jesus for who He is, and declaring that (Lord, Lord!) is not necessarily the same as bowing the knee and confessing(from a rejoicing converted heart) His Lordship. The idea that aionian kolassis has no bearing on individuals is, in my opinion, contradictory to the words of Jesus(Mat 7 Mat 25) and Paul(Roman 1 and 2).

In fact, Jesus concentrated on individuals and spoke t people as individuals and warned us as individuals.

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.

Many people Jesus spoke of had done works IN HIS NAME. They would not even fit in a category of nations that did or did not succor Israel because their approaval or disapproval was based on their individual works(in that their works revealed their hearts).

I was thirsty and you gave me no drink..... depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I was naked and you clothed me.....enter into the joy of your Lord

So, as I said before.... I just dont see the scriptures supporting a view that their is no kolassis for individuals past the Great White Throne, or that everyone will be converted/reconciled at the Great White Throne.

Now- I am not saying I have all the truth, I may well be wrong, but I would like to see an answer for the scriptures I post -from the scriptures, rather than platitudes, anecdotes and commentary excerpts- because, as I said before, I think it is a wonderful sentiment and I would wish it were true, but it don't line up for me. :o)

Those who die as unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. So I have a hard time seeing how they can be chastened while they're dead since the dead aren't conscious of anything.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

But it makes sense to me that the nations who are alive 1000 years before this will be chastened for not being good to Israel.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[marie glen]

I'm somewhat of a broken record.. (am I dating myself using "record"? how about broken c.d.! :laughing7: )

If the Spring Holy Days prophesied the 1st advent of Jesus, and were fulfilled by Him ~ Passover, Un-leavened Bread, Sabbath (regular weekly also of that Holy Week) and Firstfruit - when the waving of a single sheaf of wheat was meant to signify the whole harvest, all wheat..

Then, imo, it stands to reason that the Autumn Holy Days of ~ Trumpets (10 days later) Day of Atonement and (finally, five days later) Tabernacles prophecy the L-o-n-g Second Advent of Jesus, beginning with His return (1st peak/major event) and concluding/resulting in "Tabernacles" (last peak/major) when "God Himself will now Tabernacle with man".

It's my opinion, we need to look at the Biblical Day of Atonement for what is the in between 2nd peak/major event of the long 2nd advent, before Tabernacles-when "aLL things are made new" and "death is thrown into the LOF"... Leviticus 23:26-32 and Strong's Hebrew #3722a

Thus becoming for all, also, the "Passover" the "Un-leavened Bread" and the "Firstfruits"

I think too the function of the priests may give 'clues' as to what it will mean for the elect to be "priests of Him"

Why should Atonement be for some and not for all? Mercy for only some, punishment for others?
Imo, not logical. And not according to His nature and character..

Imo, it is atonement and mercy for all, and there are two classes (1st and 2nd resurrection) only for drama's sake, you cannot have a drama, narrative, mystery play, truth proving drama, with only one character in the 'play'/drama. But the total drama is writing His law, and the knowing of good from evil / life from nonlife, on "every" heart, mind and psyche "in heaven and earth" and also as to what could've happened to any one of us and all of us, actually, but didn't because He is 100% GOOD and 100% GOD / ABLE.

[eaglesway]

I understand that these are theories and discussion, so I dont want to engage in a debate about the topic, but I believe a study of the word for "nations" reveals at least a strong indication that it means "peoples" as the the general masses of people through out time, and I believe- as I said before, and based on the scriptures I presented, that God judges the "peoples" as individuals by the secrets of their hearts and by their works-as the works that testify to their faith and faithfulness before Him as the One in whom all people "live and breathe and have their beings". In my opinion the nations are judged in time, through the ages and the generations of their existence as He has appointed the times and boundaries of all men in order that they might seek for Him.
Acts 17:
22 And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;
23 for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
24 `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
25 neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --
27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.
29 `Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;
30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,
31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'   YLT

[Tom]

We have different perspectives, brother, but the important thing is we agree on the truth that God is the savior of all mankind.

[eaglesway]

We have different perspectives, brother, but the important thing is we agree on the truth that God is the savior of all mankind.

Aaaaamen  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

I  think many  are not sure of the 1000 year reign

Peter touched on the ignorance  of so many and not wanting to leave those  who believe in the dark / ignorance and stated     ,  2Pe 3:7   But the heavens and the earth, which are now,

Yeah it's all confusing. The 1000 year reign obviously is the Kingdom.
Jesus said the kingdom is near; which mean right now right here in ancient Jewish thought. That seems to align with: John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.


by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 


2Pe 3:8   But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 
2Pe 3:9   The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 

It does NOT say ungodly  men are burned up  forever but the works  are!!
2Pe 3:11   Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 


2Pe 3:12   Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Those works may very well be false doctrines because that are likely the elements mentioned. (elements was a term/concept that was very often used in Greek philosphy)


2Pe 3:13   Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.    

God it is   a Day  /1000 year and we know God only created   7 days 
and consider  the children of the DAY   /Light  are those  shining by the Knowledge of God though Jesus Christ .

Also consider that according to some calculations we near the 6000th year from Adam. Then Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, will be Lord of the 7th day = 1000 year Sabbath day.

I find only  2 places kolassis is used   in the bible
Mat 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

  but what about the new heavens and earth    for those    made rightous in Jesus Christ  and those works of the  old heavens and earth  are  burned up  in the DAY OF GOD

Day of God = Atonement day = Yom Kippur
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+16&version=NIV
Sins got carried away into the wilderness by the scapegoat. It's my belief Jesus was baptized on that day. The whole meaning of the feast was removing sin. Yeah, obviously that can be seen as getting rid of billions of people....

[WhiteWings]

I understand that these are theories and discussion, so I dont want to engage in a debate about the topic, but I believe a study of the word for "nations" reveals at least a strong indication that it means "peoples" as the the general masses of people through out time, and I believe- as I said before, and based on the scriptures I presented, that God judges the "peoples" as individuals by the secrets of their hearts and by their works-as the works that testify to their faith and faithfulness before Him

Maybe things become easier and/or different views get aligned if looking at it in a slightly different way...
For me LoF is the Fiery Law. Whole nations get immersed in that lake of law. But obviously nations are nothing more than a collection of billions of individuals.
They are all in the same law/lake but that doesn't mean they all get the same punishment/correction out of it. Just compare it to the law of the country you live in. It's the same for everyone, but still some end up in jail for decades while others just get a small fine.

Same story about Jesus ruling the nations with an iron rod. That rod won't be used at all for individuals that long ago have submitted to Him. But that very same rod, which in a way represents the law (=fire) will be used to hit the enemies very hard.


I hope the above makes some  sense to someone  :iagree: