Often there seems some/a lot of tension between works and faith in the mind of many.
To me it looks like they are scared to consider works because they think that means rejecting or lessening the work of Jesus.
In this post I'll try to show that those without works never are saved. I'll try to do so in small steps as I see them. Don't start angry replies before you read all steps :winkgrin:
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
The first thing I want to say about that verse is that it's best to read Hebrews 5 and 6 as one chapter because Heb 6:1 seems make a little more sense that way.
Notice the verse warns against building doctrines on dead-works. It doesn't say all works are dead. Neither does it say they're also non dead works.
So let's not inject extra things into this verse and move on the next verse.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
Faith without works is alone and dead. Dead faith is no faith. So a person without works never has faith.
Note that I did not write that works replace faith, are equal to faith. They a sign of faith. They are the fruit of faith.
So Jas 2:17 informs us that faith requires works and Heb 6:1 informs us dead-works should be avoided. Obviously that means means the works spoken of in Jas 2:17 aren't dead-works but life-works.
The following 2 verses just rephrase Jas 2:17
Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matt 25:1-46 (AKJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink?
38 When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you?
39 Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you?
40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.
---> The people who did good works are rewarded.
41 Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
---> The people who did no works get corrected
Please don't turn this in a hell thread. That's not my point. My point is that a quite lenghty passage is dedicated to works. If works never are of any importance no ink and paper would have been used on it.
Isa 29:13 Why the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Lip service. Believe something is right but not act according to it. Believe stealing is wrong but still steal. Believe feeding the poor is good but avoid helping them. A tree without fruit.
Eph 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)
2Tim 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I see works and faith as a package deal. Because everyone, except Jesus, fails/failed to have a 'perfect package' so only grace will save us.
A little note about grace. Grace is often to be thought to be God showing compassion etc. But that's possibly not exactly what it means.
When someone was in debt he was 'enslaved'. When his debt got paid he was a free man again. Sin=debt. Jesus paid our debt. When someone was bought free s/he was said to be under grace. So grace is a legal transaction paid by Jesus. But that understanding isn't really needed in this post. The point is that our faith and works never perfect enough to earn/deserve/receive/.... a spot in everlasting life. The missing bits are provided by Father through His Son.
So to summarize:
a] Faith can't be without good works.
b] We never fully succeed in point a, and that's where grace comes into view.
:2c:
IMO, We don't have faith because we do good works.
We do good works because we have faith.
"Whatever is done (work) apart from the spirit (faith) is sin"
imo a Scripture that stamps "approval" on both:
WW's many words
ded's few words
Eph 2:10 (AMP)
For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].
1. Paul knew/practiced the law of works ("dead works")
2. Damascus experience
3. Paul knew by revelation good works ("life works")
from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown
unto good works: Good works cannot be performed until we are newly created unto them. Paul never calls the works of the law "good works". We are not saved by, but created unto, good works.
planned beforehand: God marks out for each in His purposes beforehand, the particular good works, and the time and way which He sees best. God both makes ready by His providence the opportunities for the works, and makes us ready for their performance. see John 15:16; 2 Tim 2:21
Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 17, 2013, 05:42:17 PM
unto good works: Good works cannot be performed until we are newly created unto them.
I never said otherwise. I said it's a package. If one or both is missing the person has no faith. Is 'lost'.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 17, 2013, 07:22:31 PM
Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 17, 2013, 05:42:17 PM
unto good works: Good works cannot be performed until we are newly created unto them.
I never said otherwise. I said it's a package. If one or both is missing the person has no faith. Is 'lost'.
Yes, I knew you said it's a package ... it's this "package" that seemed to me to be saying what Eph 2:10 states. I quoted JFB for general information.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 17, 2013, 09:55:03 AM
Often there seems some/a lot of tension between works and faith in the mind of many.
To me it looks like they are scared to consider works because they think that means rejecting or lessening the work of Jesus.
In this post I'll try to show that those without works never are saved. I'll try to do so in small steps as I see them. Don't start angry replies before you read all steps :winkgrin:
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
The first thing I want to say about that verse is that it's best to read Hebrews 5 and 6 as one chapter because Heb 6:1 seems make a little more sense that way.
Notice the verse warns against building doctrines on dead-works. It doesn't say all works are dead. Neither does it say they're also non dead works.
So let's not inject extra things into this verse and move on the next verse.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.
Faith without works is alone and dead. Dead faith is no faith. So a person without works never has faith.
Note that I did not write that works replace faith, are equal to faith. They a sign of faith. They are the fruit of faith.
So Jas 2:17 informs us that faith requires works and Heb 6:1 informs us dead-works should be avoided. Obviously that means means the works spoken of in Jas 2:17 aren't dead-works but life-works.
The following 2 verses just rephrase Jas 2:17
Jas 2:20 But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Matt 25:1-46 (AKJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say to them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you clothed me: I was sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, and fed you? or thirsty, and gave you drink?
38 When saw we you a stranger, and took you in? or naked, and clothed you?
39 Or when saw we you sick, or in prison, and came to you?
40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it to one of the least of these my brothers, you have done it to me.
---> The people who did good works are rewarded.
41 Then shall he say also to them on the left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungered, and you gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and you gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and you visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we you an hungered, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to you?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
---> The people who did no works get corrected
Please don't turn this in a hell thread. That's not my point. My point is that a quite lenghty passage is dedicated to works. If works never are of any importance no ink and paper would have been used on it.
Isa 29:13 Why the Lord said, For as much as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Lip service. Believe something is right but not act according to it. Believe stealing is wrong but still steal. Believe feeding the poor is good but avoid helping them. A tree without fruit.
Eph 2:4-5
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace you are saved;)
2Tim 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I see works and faith as a package deal. Because everyone, except Jesus, fails/failed to have a 'perfect package' so only grace will save us.
A little note about grace. Grace is often to be thought to be God showing compassion etc. But that's possibly not exactly what it means.
When someone was in debt he was 'enslaved'. When his debt got paid he was a free man again. Sin=debt. Jesus paid our debt. When someone was bought free s/he was said to be under grace. So grace is a legal transaction paid by Jesus. But that understanding isn't really needed in this post. The point is that our faith and works never perfect enough to earn/deserve/receive/.... a spot in everlasting life. The missing bits are provided by Father through His Son.
So to summarize:
a] Faith can't be without good works.
b] We never fully succeed in point a, and that's where grace comes into view.
:2c:
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/StudiesInGalatians/index.html
Here is how I see it. :)
True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times. :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.
I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition? :dontknow:
very good analogy!
Quote from: lomarah on September 18, 2013, 03:21:36 AM
Here is how I see it. :)
True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times. :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.
I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition? :dontknow:
Thanks Lomarah... sounds good to me... and has given me a whole new way to look at the story of Jesus healing the man born blind...
Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 02:42:08 AM
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.
(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)
Quote from: lomarah on September 18, 2013, 03:21:36 AM
True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.
That supports my view/post. The blind man didn't just believe Jesus but acted upon it. He washed that area and didn't wash anything extra/different to improve things. Or didn't make up excuses to not wash at all.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 06:43:58 AM
Quote from: lomarah on September 18, 2013, 03:21:36 AM
True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.
That supports my view/post. The blind man didn't just believe Jesus but acted upon it. He washed that area and didn't wash anything extra/different to improve things. Or didn't make up excuses to not wash at all.
Exactly! :thumbsup: :banana:
Thanks for this thread WW and all whom shared amazing Lo/Holly !!
made me think of John 14 , its the Father revealing Himself by good and perfect works though Christ in YOU !! Christ is the firstfruit and chief example as Jesus explains in John 14 Jhn 14:7 If you had really known me, you would know who my Father is. [fn] From now on, you do know him and have seen him!"
Jhn 14:8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied."
Jhn 14:9 Jesus replied, "Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and yet you still don't know who I am? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking me to show him to you?
Jhn 14:10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words I speak are not my own, but my Father who lives in me does his work through me.
Jhn 14:11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.
Jhn 14:12 "I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.
Jhn 14:13 You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, so that the Son can bring glory to the Father.
Jhn 14:14 Yes, ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it!
Yes, thanks for this thread WW and with a little help from rosered and lomarah --
I was blind, but now can see better your point of view of faith, works, grace
Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 18, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Yes, thanks for this thread WW and with a little help from rosered and lomarah --
I was blind, but now can see better your point of view of faith, works, grace
I loved what you shared too Irene , because it''helped '' build a wonderful thread !!
the dead works and the Living Works ''so helpful'' I see these threads as trains of ''thought'' coming though and out of , cities , tunnels and and old places , staying on track but yet following the Holy Spirits lead :HeartThrob:
Something I can't really prove with verses.... at least not directly.
I gave the example that when someone believes stealing is wrong but still steals that person is dead in faith because the works are rotten fruit.
But it goes one step further. If that same person stops stealing because there is more police in the area or he can't bypass the new generation of alarm systems then that person still has bad fruit/dead faith.
Fear restrains him from stealing not the good fruit producing kind heart.
The same but opposite thing can be explained by helping out the poor. Someone believes it's good to help out the poor but is to stingy to give. But at full exposure that person gives.
Matt 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Trumpet is a trumpet shaped alms box that made a distinctive sound when a coin was dropped into it.
WhiteWings I have only read your post and agree that faith foes indeed produce works. By their fruit or lack of, the measure of faith is revealed.
However, I would like to add that, faith produced work is not really work at all. Rather, they are acts of love, through and because of love. These acts are done with no thought of reward or compensation.They are done for the pure joy they bring. Love creates, fear destroys.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
I wrote such a thing is different words.
But the Bible calls them both the bad and good/heart works, works.
That can be a bit confusing. Especially when it's not known there are works God blesses and some He at best ignores.
Quote from: irenic-inkwell on September 18, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Yes, thanks for this thread WW and with a little help from rosered and lomarah --
I was blind, but now can see better your point of view of faith, works, grace
That's good because in the past I was accused that I promoted bringing back the curse of the law. The works etc.
A few days ago the subject emerged again (it's linked to quite a few things) so I decided to give my view on the topic.
Quote from: lomarah on September 18, 2013, 03:21:36 AM
Here is how I see it. :)
True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times. :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.
I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition? :dontknow:
(http://dbcfaa79b34c8f5dfffa-7d3a62c63519b1618047ef2108473a39.r81.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/bethesda-416x312.jpg)
A picture of that pool. A mivah bath actually.
Read this article. (http://dbcfaa79b34c8f5dfffa-7d3a62c63519b1618047ef2108473a39.r81.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/bethesda-416x312.jpg)
I want to add two little factoids to the article. The mikvah bath was considered the most important thing of all. Even more than the Temple itself.
The reason why they pool had two compartments.
Mikvah a ritual baptism. A stone wall divided two sections of the pool. The main pool contained rainwater which came from heaven. A secondary pool containing (at least) 200 gallons of well water, coming from earth, was build a little below the main pool. The separating wall had a little hole in it so rainwater spilled into the well-water pool.
The heavenly water sanctified the earthly water. That way both earth and heaven witnessed the purifying bath. They always faced upstream and bowed in the direction of God. When available natural streams like rivers were used as a Mikvah.
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 18, 2013, 05:45:48 PM
WhiteWings I have only read your post and agree that faith foes indeed produce works. By their fruit or lack of, the measure of faith is revealed.
However, I would like to add that, faith produced work is not really work at all. Rather, they are acts of love, through and because of love. These acts are done with no thought of reward or compensation.They are done for the pure joy they bring. Love creates, fear destroys.
Love Julie :HeartThrob:
:thumbsup:
Julie of course your right LOVE [God ] is the perfect bond of maturity !! or growing up in Christ , Being grounded in love and rooted in Christ , He is Vine and we are the branches , to be lopped off or pruned , or made to bring / bear fruit to the glory of God , though the Son
I love it what you Said, WW , I just dug in a bit deeper and saw in Hebrew 6 in milk and in meat , the immature to the mature in Christ both being baptisms of sorts , moving beyond the six basic teachings of Jewish foundational instruction in understanding of Christ and HIS purpose in Hebrews 7-1 10-25 fulfilling the royal Law in Christ Jesus . getting to be partakers in CHRIST all that goodness and completness and glory to God as well as the same types of sufferings of life and death , both being baptisms , there was two the Jordan and the Cross
thanks for bringing this all up ! :HeartThrob: it helps me today , lots to think upon
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 06:39:39 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 02:42:08 AM
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.
(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)
My post was not meant to "contradict" what you wrote, but to clarify that it is "in grace, through faith, are you saved... not of works." When you say that "those without works never are saved," it needs to be clarified that the "works" being referred to are the effect of salvation not the cause. We are motivated to do good "works" by the love of God that inspires us to do so because we know God loves us and intends for us to share his love with others. Our salvation is a free gift from God that we don't earn. Nobody is worthy of it, but God is gracious. That's why eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons, even those who seemed to be the worst of sinners. So "lest anyone should be boasting" about their "works," never forget that is only by the grace of God that any of us are saved.
PS
The dead works seems to be focusing on repentance of sin and not being able to get past that ???
the six elemental teachings , I only have5
1 repentance
2Faith in God 3 baptisms 4 laying on hands / healing 5 resurrection from the dead
I am not sure what six /6 is
do you know ? thanks
Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 07:41:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 06:39:39 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 02:42:08 AM
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.
(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)
My post was not meant to "contradict" what you wrote,
To be honest I can't even remember if I assumed you did (not).
It's just that certain verses often are used as the ulitimate proof to support a view.
When I see such a verse, I get on my :soap: and start :blahgreen: :blah:
Quotebut to clarify that it is "in grace, through faith, are you saved... not of works." When you say that "those without works never are saved," it needs to be clarified that the "works" being referred to are the effect of salvation not the cause.
I find that a bit difficult Tom. It's a bit like the what came first. The chicken or the egg.
Good works can only come through faith. But faith can only be when the mentioned works are 'alive'.
That's not a debate. It's something I truly can't comprehend.
That's why I took the safe route and called it a package deal. Today on my way to work I thought about it and decided it's not complete.
My current view is:
When we get born we receive an empty box. When it's filled with works through faith at death we are saved. Only Jesus' box was completly full. Ours is not. Never. Father adds grace until the box is full.
Does that qualify as the happy thought of the day?
QuoteWe are motivated to do good "works" by the love of God that inspires us to do so because we know God loves us and intends for us to share his love with others. Our salvation is a free gift from God that we don't earn. Nobody is worthy of it, but God is gracious. That's why eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons, even those who seemed to be the worst of sinners. So "lest anyone should be boasting" about their "works," never forget that is only by the grace of God that any of us are saved.
Fully agree with that.
Quote from: rosered on September 18, 2013, 07:44:11 PM
PS
The dead works seems to be focusing on repentance of sin and not being able to get past that ???
Plz read reply #15.
Giving alms never is a sin. The reason why make sit dead works. :2c:
Quotethe six elemental teachings , I only have5
1 repentance
2Faith in God 3 baptisms 4 laying on hands / healing 5 resurrection from the dead
I am not sure what six /6 is
do you know ? thanks
That's way above my pay rate dear Rosey :winkgrin:
I do have a few "groups of 7" and more "groups of 4"
I do know all the groups of 4 end with marriage.
Perhaps that's what you are looking for?
Is giving an elemental teaching? :dontknow:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 08:11:40 PM
Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 07:41:07 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 06:39:39 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 18, 2013, 02:42:08 AM
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
The classic verse. But of no use if the words aren't understood.
Anyway it doesn't contradict what I wrote in the slightest.
(Btw if like the word approach in that verse)
My post was not meant to "contradict" what you wrote,
To be honest I can't even remember if I assumed you did (not).
It's just that certain verses often are used as the ulitimate proof to support a view.
When I see such a verse, I get on my :soap: and start :blahgreen: :blah:
Quotebut to clarify that it is "in grace, through faith, are you saved... not of works." When you say that "those without works never are saved," it needs to be clarified that the "works" being referred to are the effect of salvation not the cause.
I find that a bit difficult Tom. It's a bit like the what came first. The chicken or the egg.
Good works can only come through faith. But faith can only be when the mentioned works are 'alive'.
That's not a debate. It's something I truly can't comprehend.
That's why I took the safe route and called it a package deal. Today on my way to work I thought about it and decided it's not complete.
My current view is:
When we get born we receive an empty box. When it's filled with works through faith at death we are saved. Only Jesus' box was completly full. Ours is not. Never. Father adds grace until the box is full.
Does that qualify as the happy thought of the day?
QuoteWe are motivated to do good "works" by the love of God that inspires us to do so because we know God loves us and intends for us to share his love with others. Our salvation is a free gift from God that we don't earn. Nobody is worthy of it, but God is gracious. That's why eventually all mankind will be saved from death at the consummation of the eons, even those who seemed to be the worst of sinners. So "lest anyone should be boasting" about their "works," never forget that is only by the grace of God that any of us are saved.
Fully agree with that.
I used to wonder about the chicken and egg too until I decided to quit believing in evolution and believe the word of God. Now I know Yahweh Elohim created the chicken from which the egg came.
The distinction of Paul's evangel is salvation in grace through faith. We of the nations have been saved according to Paul's evangel. That's why it's important not to mix the two evangels of the Circumcision and the Uncircumcision which is exactly what church doctrine has done. That's why folks get confused about things like "works." Belief that Christ died for our sins and was roused from the dead is how we are saved, and we believe that because God has given us faith to believe it not because we deserved it any more than unbelievers. It is simply God's will that we have been chosen for eonian life.
"according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight, in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will" (Ephesians 1:4,5)
None of us is worthy. We all have sinned, but we have been justified by the blood of Christ. Those who have not been chosen for eonian life will be justified not through faith but through judgment before the great white throne. So, at the consummation of the eons, all will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected to God so "that God may be all in all." That is the ultimate goal of God that church doctrine refuses to acknowledge because it propagates salvation through works that is simply an offer of salvation which must be accepted according to church doctrine and tradition. Christ did not die so that salvation could be offered and earned. Christ died so that all mankind would be saved according to God's will, some when Christ returns, and the rest at the consummation of the eons.
"He is the propitiatory shelter concerned with our sins, yet not concerned with ours only, but concerned with the whole world also." (1 John 2:2)
"for this are we toiling and being reproached, that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
Quote from: lomarah on September 18, 2013, 03:21:36 AM
Here is how I see it. :)
True faith is believing what the Spirit reveals to you, personally, whether it be through the written word (scriptures), through a personal word (Him speaking to your heart), through a prophet (prophetic word), or whatever it may be. (Heck He even speaks through donkeys at times. :laughing7: ) True faith will believe and act on these things that are revealed. For example, Jesus told the blind man to go wash in a certain area and if he did he would be healed. Why that area? I don't have a clue but I know He did and the man had faith and he acted upon that faith and was "saved" from his blindness. Had he not had true faith and not washed in that pool he would've stayed blind.
I wonder if the works is the fruit then is the seed the word, and faith the water that brings the seed (word) to fruition? :dontknow:
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
By faith we know the worlds were framed by the word of God.
and that(faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
faith which works by love.
I think that your analogy is perfect. God gives the seed. God gives the rain. God gives the fruit. The works that are pleasing to God arise out of love. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart....and your neighbor as yourself....on these two hang all the law and the prophets."
Whatever we do that is not out of love for God and love for our neighbor is dead.
Only God knows the secrets of our hearts.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement017.html
From my experiences, there have been times in my life in which I became aware that if I did not do something, I would be consciously forfeiting my faith. Likewise, I feel that if I were to commit certain acts, I could not also be believing in Christ as my Savior from sin at the same time. Of course, there are times when I yield to temptations without my mind being fully conscious of the implications of the act. And I'm sure there are times when I don't do things that I should do because I am not fully aware of God's will in a particular situation. I don't think that these instances put my salvation in jeopardy because salvation is by grace through faith. But having faith does put some constraints upon my life.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 18, 2013, 08:18:58 PM
Quote from: rosered on September 18, 2013, 07:44:11 PM
PS
The dead works seems to be focusing on repentance of sin and not being able to get past that ???
Plz read reply #15.
Giving alms never is a sin. The reason why make sit dead works. :2c:
Quotethe six elemental teachings , I only have5
1 repentance
2Faith in God 3 baptisms 4 laying on hands / healing 5 resurrection from the dead
I am not sure what six /6 is
do you know ? thanks
That's way above my pay rate dear Rosey :winkgrin:
I do have a few "groups of 7" and more "groups of 4"
I do know all the groups of 4 end with marriage.
Perhaps that's what you are looking for?
Thanks for your reply WW
Well dead works is a result of staying in the law of Moses / or teaching of religious law to me because its the ministration of death and letter of the law , being'' the knowledge of sin '' aware of it , yet they do not do this themselves ,
what good is law keeping if you make others do what your not willing to do yourself ?
I can eat an applewood Bacon lettuce and tomato sandwich and not feel guilty of it or consider it sinning , only because I have faith that Jesus taught what defiles us is not what goes in to us , but what comes out of us , namely our hearts , you can eat all things if its with thanksgiving to God for it [Romans 14]
for the the elemental teaching of giving alms is in the same catagory of '' showing mercy ''
or just judging what is right to me
I really believe the changes are done from being changed from a carnal creature to a spiritual creature , as God births these new creatures in Christ , with a new heart and name , the laws are different in the sense
of natures to me Love being the main expression to all life universally in and though Christ / annoiting
because the carnal in nature struggles with love and self
I was only looking into Hebrews 6 for those named elemental teachings :gimmefive:
lots I just dont understand admittedly :doh:
Quote from: rosered on September 19, 2013, 04:20:08 PM
Well dead works is a result of staying in the law of Moses / or teaching of religious law to me because its the ministration of death and letter of the law , being" the knowledge of sin " aware of it , yet they do not do this themselves , what good is law keeping if you make others do what your not willing to do yourself ?
I think by keeping the law you enter the servant-covenant, which doesn't save.
I think salvation is only found in the higher covenants.
Note that I'm not talking about being lost forever or similar ET teachings.
The covenants determine in which resurrection someone is resurrected.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 19, 2013, 04:48:45 PM
Quote from: rosered on September 19, 2013, 04:20:08 PM
Well dead works is a result of staying in the law of Moses / or teaching of religious law to me because its the ministration of death and letter of the law , being" the knowledge of sin " aware of it , yet they do not do this themselves , what good is law keeping if you make others do what your not willing to do yourself ?
I think by keeping the law you enter the servant-covenant, which doesn't save.
I think salvation is only found in the higher covenants.
Note that I'm talking about being lost forever or similar ET teachings.
The covenants determine in which resurrection someone is resurrected.
:2c:
:iagree: I agree WW , you are right about that , yes the servant to a son status , TWO covenants and two types of sons [bond and free ]
I think there are 4 Rosey
Blood = Servant
Salt = Friendship
Sandal = Inheritance
Bride
IMO, Any works not done out of love are dead.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2013, 07:58:44 AM
IMO, Any works not done out of love are dead.
:Chinscratch:
Not sure about that EW.
If I help a person that person benefits from that no matter if it are works coming straight from the heart or if I'm somehow forced to do it. From the pov of that person I did a good work when I painted the house for free.
Faith without works from the heart is dead.
But that doesn't mean there can't be good works outside of Christ.
At least I don't see a difference in:
a] A saintly Christian taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.
b] A heretic taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.
They are all works out of love. I think the whole good/bad works thing can't explained with a single simple rule.
A bit like a horse is an animal but not all animals are horses.
Good works are part of faith but not all good works are because of faith.
All good works are because of the seed. :2c:
Can an unbeliever perform according to that seed?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 02:56:28 PM
Can an unbeliever perform according to that seed?
My answer is, of course, YES. :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 20, 2013, 08:46:17 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2013, 07:58:44 AM
IMO, Any works not done out of love are dead.
:Chinscratch:
Not sure about that EW.
If I help a person that person benefits from that no matter if it are works coming straight from the heart or if I'm somehow forced to do it. From the pov of that person I did a good work when I painted the house for free.
Faith without works from the heart is dead.
But that doesn't mean there can't be good works outside of Christ.
At least I don't see a difference in:
a] A saintly Christian taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.
b] A heretic taking very good care of his sick parents out of pure love.
They are all works out of love. I think the whole good/bad works thing can't explained with a single simple rule.
A bit like a horse is an animal but not all animals are horses.
Good works are part of faith but not all good works are because of faith.
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
I was just stating my opinion, but I believe the scriptures support my opinion that anything that does not come from love(God is love) is dead works.
Faith works through love. Love is the seed.
Since "the word", or "logos" is the "radiance of the Father's glory and exact representation of His nature"(Heb 1) and "God is love"- love is the seed. "No greater love has a man than this than to lay down his life for his friends."
Logos means the "expressed thought" or "inner being expressed outwardly"- the Logos is the expression of God's love embodied in Jesus Christ, "the fulness of deity in bodily form". This simply means "All of who and what God is expressed in a way you can see it".(And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth).
IMO true love exceeds all our categorizations and is seen in the heart by God who discerns everything in everyone. It is what Jesus meant by "believe"- "If any man would be my disciple let him take up his cross(lay down his life for his friends) and Come, Follow me."
Jesus clearly defined another kind of believing as worthless- "I was hungry but you gave me no food, I was thirsty but you gave me no water, I was naked but you passed me by"....
But then Paul says, in his soliloque about love.(1 Cor 13)..."If I bestow all my goods so as to feed the poor, if I give my body to be burned..... and have not love, it profits me nothing."
So we see that the works are dead unless they come from love. Love is not religious or religiously defined- it is real or it is not and only God knows and that should keep us all humble and seeking :o)
If Love is telling a person to take care of their sick parents then WHO is it prompting them to do so? Are they not then acting in faith? (Many will say to me in that day, Lord when did we see you hungry, etc...)
There you go Eaglesway, we just wrote those at the sane time. Double witness. :)
yup :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2013, 05:20:24 PM
yup :o)
Altho I hav to add that someone could take care of their ailing parents out of duty, pride, etc- not really loving them, and it would profit them nothing. Love is the connection through which beings exchange their essence(sounds new age but true anyway)- in full contact with one another. Full forgiveness, tolerance, accounting no wrongs, pouring out good will and kindness.
Wood hay and stubble, imo, is "good" works done for other motivations than true(agape)love- they will be burned in the fire. The fire is the light that will bring every hidden thing to light. Jesus' eyes are as flames of fire and he says, "I am he that tries the reins and the hearts(secret motivations)".
Thats why when Paul says ,"When those who do not have the law, do the law, they are a law unto themselves.....their consciences either excusing or accusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ" (Rom 2)
Jesus will decide who was a believer by the love He demonstrated when He laid down His life for His friends - ALL MANKIND - becuase of His genuine love for them all (Father forgive them for they dont know what they are doing) :o)
:thumbsup:
Quote from: lomarah on September 20, 2013, 05:17:49 PM
If Love is telling a person to take care of their sick parents then WHO is it prompting them to do so? Are they not then acting in faith?
So you think atheist, muslims, etc never take care of sick parents.
The atheist obviously has no faith and the faith of the muslim equals nothing too.
No sir, on the contrary. When Love (aka God) prompts the atheist or muslim to take care of their sick parents are they not being faithful to Love? That's what I meant.
But not faithful to Jesus.
Just as believing in Jesus without good works doesn't save, so does good works without believing in Jesus save either.
Aren't both examples "dead" from a religious, saving pov? I think so.
Well here is where we get into some "sticky" theology. :winkgrin: First of all, many who reject Jesus are not actually rejecting JESUS, imo. They are rejecting the absurdity of "christian" theology and hypocrisy.
Christ is the WORD of God. Christ is the Light. He is the light that enlightens EVERY man that comes into the world. When He speaks to someone (whether they know it's Him or not) and they obey His word, are they not being faithful to Christ? Are "christians" who go by His name actually faithful to Christ if they are not following the light (Love)? No, because even the demons believe Jesus is the Son of God (and tremble).
So it's possible that a loving satanist does saving works?
Doesn't that edge a teeny weenie towards the new age Universalism?
Quote from: lomarah on September 20, 2013, 07:47:26 PM
Well here is where we get into some "sticky" theology. :winkgrin: First of all, many who reject Jesus are not actually rejecting JESUS, imo. They are rejecting the absurdity of "christian" theology and hypocrisy.
Christ is the WORD of God. Christ is the Light. He is the light that enlightens EVERY man that comes into the world. When He speaks to someone (whether they know it's Him or not) and they obey His word, are they not being faithful to Christ? Are "christians" who go by His name actually faithful to Christ if they are not following the light (Love)? No, because even the demons believe Jesus is the Son of God (and tremble).
:thumbsup:
WW:
He causes rain (the HS) to fall on the just and the unjust. There is one fountainhead of love flowing over all men. Many are still veiled to the reality that they have been raised to life in that river, but are still affected by the river, as it flows through the logos, the seed in men.
A satanists works that were done through love will not be burned up, that is the law to them. That doesn't "get em in to heaven" cus we know thats not what salvation is really about. Works to salvation re translated into Works unto healing. The concept of salvation is so distorted that we think of being saved by works means not going to hell.
Jeremy, your post contains several summary points contained (at least in part) in other various views that I wonder about;
isn't the scripture "God rains on the just and unjust" talking about His physical, temporal/earthly blessings (food, clothing, sunshine, etc.)?
My understanding is that anyone not yet personally drawn by the Holy Spirit and given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior, is not as yet spiritually reborn, rather than they just need to realize that they are. I believe they need their personal encounter with the Savior, where their sins are washed away and their spirits renewed.
:2c:
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 20, 2013, 11:31:01 PM
Quote from: lomarah on September 20, 2013, 07:47:26 PM
Well here is where we get into some "sticky" theology. :winkgrin: First of all, many who reject Jesus are not actually rejecting JESUS, imo. They are rejecting the absurdity of "christian" theology and hypocrisy.
Christ is the WORD of God. Christ is the Light. He is the light that enlightens EVERY man that comes into the world. When He speaks to someone (whether they know it's Him or not) and they obey His word, are they not being faithful to Christ? Are "christians" who go by His name actually faithful to Christ if they are not following the light (Love)? No, because even the demons believe Jesus is the Son of God (and tremble).
:thumbsup:
WW:
He causes rain (the HS) to fall on the just and the unjust. There is one fountainhead of love flowing over all men. Many are still veiled to the reality that they have been raised to life in that river, but are still affected by the river, as it flows through the logos, the seed in men.
A satanists works that were done through love will not be burned up, that is the law to them. That doesn't "get em in to heaven" cus we know thats not what salvation is really about. Works to salvation re translated into Works unto healing. The concept of salvation is so distorted that we think of being saved by works means not going to hell.
:thumbsup:
Awesome stuff Jeremy, that's basically exactly what I was going to say. We are being saved from sin and death. (Not "hell", although being slaves to sin is certainly not fun. :winkgrin: ) We are being set free from dead works (caused by sin), unto true faith works. When we hear His voice telling us to do something, setting us free (the voice of Truth), and we believe and obey that voice, whether we know His "name" (Jesus) or not, we are still being obedient to His voice.
CERTAINLY it is better to KNOW Him personally!!! There is no argument there. BUT He is the Saviour of ALL, especially of those who believe. So are there atheists hearing His voice and doing works of love? I would think definitely so.
Quote from: lomarah on September 21, 2013, 01:56:08 AM
When we hear His voice telling us to do something, setting us free (the voice of Truth), and we believe and obey that voice, whether we know His "name" (Jesus) or not we are still being obedient to His voice.
CERTAINLY it is better to KNOW Him personally!!! [Really? Scripture says that's the ONLY way]. So are there atheists hearing His voice and doing works of love? I would think definitely so.
I'm from Missouri (the Show-Me state). :laugh: Can you show me scripturally your beliefs presented above, taking into account various related scriptures? Because I see this; "there's no other NAME under heaven by which we MUST be saved", and "call upon the NAME of the Lord". Also "how can they believe in Him whom they have not heard?".
IMO, there's always a danger of either being too legalistic, or, watering things down into a "mush gospel" (Shamedly, I've done both). But I believe the truth's in the middle, and it's not what we think - it's what do the scriptures say, rightly divided, Spirit revealed. (disclaimer - there's MUCH I don't know and need revelation on - in fact, sometimes I think I "know"/understand little else besides Jesus and Him crucified and risen). Anyway, thanks :).
Christ died once for all therefore all have died. And have been reconciled before the foundation of the world. All are a part of that act. Those who haven't been called to life do not know that they have been included. They are still enemies in their minds not "saved" yes there is a distinction. And I disagree that the rain just means literal rain. As the spirit is repeatedly related to water.
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 21, 2013, 02:52:39 AM
Christ died once for all therefore all have died. And have been reconciled before the foundation of the world. All are a part of that act. Those who haven't been called to life do not know that they have been included. They are still enemies in their minds not "saved" yes there is a distinction. And I disagree that the rain just means literal rain. As the spirit is repeatedly related to water.
I should know better than to say "I've said about all I want to say.." :mblush: We may just see some of this differently, but this can be a fruitful discussion. It will force me to look at things more closely if nothing else, thanks. :)
:2c: My current understanding, I believe the
primary sense is that believers, the elect, are chosen before the foundation (though in a broader sense, God has us all in mind, as He "so loved the world.."). I believe most are still estranged from God - not just in mind, but are literally spiritually dead - until their rebirth. I personally understand the body of relevant scripture to indicate that.
So do you believe it's just in their mind, that they just don't realize it yet? I know there are various allusions to the mind being renewed, but I don't believe that's the whole, rightly divided, showing "everyone's already in Christ" - as for one thing, it's often talking about those who already believe. Maybe we're saying similar things differently, not sure. :handshake:
I agree and didn't say rain [always] just means literal rain. But in the specific context quoted, I believe it primarily
does mean something more akin to blessings, so I personally can't use that to understand "everyone's saved, they just don't know it" (and again, maybe that's not what you're saying either). I believe Jesus did everything necessary for everyone to be saved, all just haven't been called and given the faith to believe yet - which IMO means some are currently children of God and some are currently children of the devil I John 3:10. God is reconciled to mankind, but I don't believe all of mankind is as yet reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20). (And of course, it's by grace, the free gift, no one can boast.)
the first Adam..natural man is also a sonof God........manhas both good[only Godisgood]and evil
in him. those who love have been born of God...... now,itis true that Jesus said..wemust
be born again from above.. fo rwe have no life in us.[coz good/evil mix is death....]....
we must be all God with no evil in us. all of us.perfect..as our Father is perfect..
God called i tgood....the creature..before it was subjected to vnity........
Adam was a sonof God,also Jesus....... a little evi lspoils much good.....
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 02:56:17 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 21, 2013, 02:52:39 AM
Christ died once for all therefore all have died. And have been reconciled before the foundation of the world. All are a part of that act. Those who haven't been called to life do not know that they have been included. They are still enemies in their minds not "saved" yes there is a distinction. And I disagree that the rain just means literal rain. As the spirit is repeatedly related to water.
I should know better than to say "I've said about all I want to say.." :mblush: We may just see some of this differently, but this can be a fruitful discussion. It will force me to look at things more closely if nothing else, thanks. :)
:2c: My current understanding, I believe the primary sense is that believers, the elect, are chosen before the foundation (though in a broader sense, God has us all in mind, as He "so loved the world.."). I believe most are still estranged from God - not just in mind, but are literally spiritually dead - until their rebirth. I personally understand the body of relevant scripture to indicate that.
So do you believe it's just in their mind, that they just don't realize it yet? I know there are various allusions to the mind being renewed, but I don't believe that's the whole, rightly divided, showing "everyone's already in Christ" - as for one thing, it's often talking about those who already believe. :2c: Maybe we're saying similar things differently, not sure. :handshake:
I agree and didn't say rain [always] just means literal rain. But in the specific context quoted, I believe it primarily does mean something more akin to blessings, so I personally can't use that to understand "everyone's saved, they just don't know it". I believe Jesus did everything necessary for everyone to be saved, all just haven't been called and given the faith to believe yet - which IMO means some are currently children of God and some are currently children of the devil I John 3:10. God is reconciled to mankind, but I don't believe all of mankind is as yet reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20). (And of course, it's by grace, the free gift, no one can boast.)
It is my understanding that the "rebirth" Christ spoke to Nicodemus about referred to Israel in the coming millenium while we in the body of Christ are a "new creation."
"Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."" (John 3:3)
"1 We have found an unholy temple, an unspiritual priesthood, and now we are introduced to an ignorant teacher! Intense application to a single text book for a whole life had not taught him the elements of the truth! Nicodemus, however, was impressed with the Lord's works, little as he understood His words. Like the rest, he takes literally what is figurative. He should have known from Ezekiel, the prophet, that Israel could not enter the kingdom without a new spirit (Eze.36:26).
Spiritual regeneration, the one imperative condition, apart from which the kingdom cannot be entered, is utterly beyond his erudition. All that he considered vital was physical relationship with the favored nation.
The Lord did not give out regeneration as good news, but as bad news. This is not the gospel, even for the Circumcision. The evangel is always concerned with God and His Christ, never with man and his needs or efforts. Of the latter nothing good can be said, no evangel can be formulated. The new birth is not an evangel in any sense. It makes a demand he has no means of meeting.
For one like Nicodemus, expecting to enter the kingdom by physical generation, it would be quite a blow to demand spiritual regeneration. Men are utterly helpless in regard to their physical generation. They can do no more to accomplish their spiritual regeneration. It is the sovereign work of God's spirit.
Searching as the figure is, it does not probe nearly so deeply into human helplessness as the truth for the present economy of God's grace. Now, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation (2 Co.5:17). In spirit, we skip the era of the kingdom, the renascence, and enter the new creation, over a thousand years later. A new birth will fit them for a life on earth during the millennial eon. The new creation fits us for our celestial destiny. They will receive a rejuvenation of the faculties, we will be changed at the resurrection and receive powers and capacities far beyond our present possibilities. Regeneration keeps company with repentance and baptism. The new creation accompanies the dispensation of the conciliation (2Co.5:18)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 143)
"So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!" (2 Corinthians 5:17)
"16 Paul had been proclaiming the kingdom, with Christ and the nation which is related to Him by physical ties at its head. Entrance into that kingdom was by a birth from above. But now the figure of birth is not radical enough to denote the great change. Just as, after the day of the Lord, heaven and earth will be re-created so is the spiritual change which took place at this juncture. There is a new creation. Paul never connects the new birth with his teaching to the nations. It suffices to figure the change necessary for the sons of Israel and their proselytes, fitting them for the earthly millennial sphere. For us, far more is needed. Like Adam, we are not a mere renewal in kind, but an entirely new creation." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 271)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/newbirth.html
I hear folks talk about being "spiritually dead," but I don't remember ever reading about it in scripture. I think folks can have a spirit of stupor, but I don't think they can be spiritually dead because spirit is the power of life that returns to God when the body dies.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
"What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. (Romans 11:7,8)
"But, according as it is written, That which the eye did not perceive, and the ear did not hear, and to which the heart of man did not ascend --
whatever God makes ready for those who are loving Him. Yet to us God reveals them through His spirit, for the spirit is searching all, even the depths of God. For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God. Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God, which we are speaking also, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, matching spiritual blessings with spiritual words. Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined." (1 Corinthians 2:9-14)
I hear you about Christ's SPECIFIC statement to Nico, its context, etc....however, I believe there are also other references/issues, that have their own context and meaning, and I believe it's that if we're not made alive (through the gift of faith to believe on the Savior), we're still spiritually dead.
To the believers in Colossae ("probably" a mixture of Jews and Gentiles) "12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross...."
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 04:20:36 AM
I hear you about Christ's SPECIFIC statement to Nico, its context, etc....however, I believe there are also other references/issues, that have their own context and meaning, and I believe it's that if we're not made alive (through the gift of faith to believe on the Savior), we're still spiritually dead.
To the believers in Colossae "12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross...."
I believe we were "dead" and are "roused" "through faith" figuratively speaking, but I don't say "spiritually dead." I don't believe spirit dies because it is the power of life. I believe death is a return. The body returns to the soil; the soul returns to the unseen; and the spirit returns to God.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
:thumbsup: It is an interesting discussion and something to think about. I do ponder it, the whole spirit aspect of it...at some point it's too big for me at current levels. :laugh:
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 04:38:29 AM
:thumbsup: It is an interesting discussion and something to think about. I do ponder it, the whole spirit aspect of it...at some point it's too big for me at current levels. :laugh:
We're all just students, bro, trying to be perfected. The word of God is an amazing thing to study.
To be saved means to be delivered. "Be saved from this perverse generation."(Acts 3) IMO, To be saved now is a different issue than the judgment of the great Day. One can only be saved(delivered) now through the name of Jesus(There is only one name given under heaven by which a person may be saved, the name of Jesus Christ(acts 4:12).
However, one of the foundations of ET doctrine is that if you are not saved now you will go to hell on "the Day". I think this is an error- whether it is held by ET or UR believers.
Those who are saved(delivered) now hav passed from death unto life.
Everyone else will be judged in the Day, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their conscience will either excuse them or accuse them on the DAY God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ."
What does this mean, we do not need Jesus to be saved? Or does it mean a Muslim can be saved on "the DAY" without Christ?
No.
IMO it means that God judges all men by the secrets of the hearts- NOW for those who hav already entered the Day, (we are judged/discerned by the love of Christ every day we live) everyone else will be judged before the Great White Throne- which we are given very little information about.
As I read it, those who did not hav the law of God will be judged by the law that is written on every heart, "the light that lights everyone who comes into the world".
According to Romans 2 they are a law unto themselves.
Some of them will rejoice to see Jesus(they walked as a law unto themselves). Some will recoil at his sight(they did not walk in the light they had).
Their are Muslims who take care of their parents because it is their law- not because they love their parents. Ther are Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists, etc- that do the same. Only God knows the secrets motivations of the hearts, and when the love is real or just duty or religion.
It is clear from the scriptures that good works can be done for dead reasons- the only benefit is to the person receiving such works- the person giving receives no benefit if their motives are dead. "If you give alms to be seen, you have received your reward. Let not your right hand kno what your left hand is doing.When you giv, giv in secret, God who sees in secret will reward you openly."(Now and in the Day)
We cannot sort it out here- that is an affront to Christ in my opinion.
Say not, "I will ascend into heaven"- that is to bring Christ down. Say not, "I will descend into the pit, "That is to bring Christ up from the dead". But the word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, that word of faith which we preach- that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be delivered/healed/saved(saved NOW.)
I personally believe that the teaching that everyone who is not saved now will face kolassis is an ET based doctrine that denies the scriptures. For me Romans 2 is clear. The parable of the Good Samaritan is also clear. Some who think they hav salvation based in what they "know" and "believe" will face kolassis(the Pharisee & the Levite)- this is clear as well. Some who do not know but live as if they believe because in their hearts they have the witness that Romans 1 and John 1 plainly declare is given to everyone who comes into the world -and they lived by it(the Samaritan).
There is no place in the scriptures that I kno of that says we are to separate the sheep from the goats or the wheat from the chaff by our knowledge or beliefs. WHile we can declare that the Muslim gospel is false and that the Muslim faith is demonic- IMO, we can not judge every Muslim by that knowledge. Only God knows the secrets of each persons heart.
:2c:
That kind of judgment is reserved for Jesus Christ alone on the Day.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2013, 05:16:11 PM1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
I was just stating my opinion, but I believe the scriptures support my opinion that anything that does not come from love(God is love) is dead works.
I think it's not that simple. Maybe there are 2 sets of good works?
Let's say one set which is about entering heaven is Christ based.
The other set is not.
In other words all good works are good works but not all are getting you in heaven.
Just like all faith is faith but not all gets you in heaven.
Living-faith vs dead-faith
Living-good-works vs dead-good-works
:2c:
First of all John, I agree with a lot of what you say here, some of it I think might be true but I'm just not quite pulling it all together right now, and some of it I have questions about.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2013, 06:38:22 AM
To be saved means to be delivered. "Be saved from this perverse generation."(Acts 3)
I believe it has other meanings/applications as well. "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". Acts 16:31
Quote from: eaglesway on September 21, 2013, 06:38:22 AM
One can only be saved(delivered) now through the name of Jesus(There is only one name given under heaven by which a person may be saved, the name of Jesus Christ(acts 4:12).
Yes, agreed. I believe that's scriptural. I also believe it's scriptural that's the only way ANYONE can be saved - whether this age or the next - by being given faith to believe on Jesus (every tongue confess Jesus is Lord).
Some of these things I just think about myself, wonder about, and haven't reached definitive "satisfaction" on, are things others have intimated (or I've perceived that way) along the way, so I'll lump it all in here together and maybe some light can be shed, some things clarified, and blanks filled in. John said no one can be saved without Jesus, and I agree. But I wonder if some might look at Romans 2 (or for whatever reason decide they think it's just the way it is), and say many
might be saved by somehow reacting to their conscience, to some light they have - because they unknowingly knew Him? And so they'll just be "accepted in" based on their good conscience and good deeds. Or this one, which may have some merit?; many with a good conscience and kind heart, etc., will be more ready and in a closer position of acknowleding Him as Savior.. Not that their works has "earned" them a "pass" (given them spiritual new birth, i.e., passed from death unto life) but they're "rewarded" ("excused") for following an "inner voice", in that faith and belief for them is more easily attained? EDIT/ADDITION [few stripes/many stripes? But then why would a reborn believer, raised to life, seated in the heavenlies with Christ receive
any stripes? Are we sure Jesus' words about rewards, works, and stripes didn't at least have
something specifically to do with the end of that age of LAW, since all those words were spoken to Jews prior to the cross?? Or maybe "in that day" really did mean in
that Day, i.e., the consummation). :Chinscratch:
John, you said believing that someone goes to "hell" (or even kolasin aionian, temporary corrective discipline) on the day of judgment is an ET concept and error. You also said someone saved (spiritually reborn - my interpretation) in this life has passed from life unto death. So do you (or anyone) believe then there is no correction at all for those folks? (yet as far as I know, all who live in this flesh of clay still carry sin with them). I've seen that view, that basically death and the loss of the literal flesh = "judgment over, salvation accomplished". I don't believe you believe that John, but how do you see it? Do you/we/anyone think it's just quickly burned away/falls away without consequence? :dunno2:
Bottom line for me, if there's no clear-cut "way to tell" if myself (or anyone) is a believer, spiritually reborn, a child of God through Jesus Christ, then it all gets pretty murky and nebulous. What's the Good News? Is it Jesus Christ and Him crucified and risen, and that's the only name by which we
must be saved and "how can they believe in whom they have not heard, and how can they hear unless someone tells them"? I thought and think so. "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus...". It's an urgent matter. "Be ye reconciled to God"! I just can't believe at this time that it's a mish-mash of works, conscience, no way to tell until that Day. If it's all so gray and we can only wait and see, why is "believe in JESUS, call on the NAME of the Lord and you will be saved" even in the scriptures? And why is this in there? "No one who is born of God
practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is
born of God.
10By this the 1 children of God and the 2 children of the devil are obvious".
Do you/I/we/anyone believe God judging us on the secrets of our hearts means that Jesus and faith on Him as Savior has nothing to do with that? That there might be secret believers, who don't even know they're believers, because they have no idea who Jesus is (despite "how can they call on whom they have not heard, and how can they hear unless someone tells them" Rom. 10:14,15?), but they don't have a guilty conscience so ....what exactly? Will God say to a nice unbelieving pagan who helped little ladies cross the street and never stole anybody's milk money, "well done good and faithful servant, you were a law unto yourself. Enter in to the joy prepared for you"?
I'm gonna go study on this, because I believe it's "believe and confess the Lord Jesus", and "there's no other name", and "I am the way..no one comes through the Father but by Me". But I'll admit, Romans 2 fits in there somewhere. I just believe
it and all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 21, 2013, 09:07:09 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2013, 05:16:11 PM1 I believe the scriptures support my opinion that anything that does not come from love(God is love) is dead works.
Maybe there are 2 sets of good works?
Let's say one set which is about entering heaven is Christ based.
The other set is not.
In other words all good works are good works but not all are getting you in heaven.
Just like all faith is faith but not all gets you in heaven.
Living-faith vs dead-faith
Living-good-works vs dead-good-works
I think these 2 statements are cutting into the heart of the matter of all that I posted above.
Quote from: eagleswayTo be saved means to be delivered. "Be saved from this perverse generation."(Acts 3)
Quote from: jabcatI believe it has other meanings/applications as well. "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved". Acts 16:31
No. It's exactly the same thing. That's one of the implications of my 1st post.
I'm really mainly saying I don't think it just means "saved or delivered from trouble". I believe it also has to do with "once dead in trespasses and sins, now made alive" - regeneration, not "just" deliverance/healing. I believe - and maybe you're saying - it's all of that.
It's all of that because:
Belief if Jesus IS required. But that's dead faith if the good works are lacking.
Belief in Jesus is required to wash away sins but it requires some sort of repentance in this life/stage. Repentance without at least trying to improve is dead-repentance is no repentance at all.
Jesus was preaching the laws of the Father. All Father does equals life so His laws are life giving. So it all fits in what I said earlier. A package deal.
It's not about believing in Jesus.
It's not about about giving to charity.
It's not about repenting.
It's not about improving.
It's about all that combined.
And then just one component is lacking... grace.
Quoting myself about the package:
QuoteI see works and faith as a package deal. Because everyone, except Jesus, fails/failed to have a 'perfect package' so only grace will save us.
A little note about grace. Grace is often to be thought to be God showing compassion etc. But that's possibly not exactly what it means.
When someone was in debt he was 'enslaved'. When his debt got paid he was a free man again. Sin=debt. Jesus paid our debt. When someone was bought free s/he was said to be under grace. So grace is a legal transaction paid by Jesus. But that understanding isn't really needed in this post. The point is that our faith and works never perfect enough to earn/deserve/receive/.... a spot in everlasting life. The missing bits are provided by Father through His Son.
EW :thumbsup:
God is the savior of all mankind.
"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
There are three classes to be "saved" from death. Christ has already been immortalized. We in "the body of Christ" are next when he meets us in the air, and the rest of mankind will be "saved" from death at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished.
"20 Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing.
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead.
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death." (1 Corinthians 15:20-26)
We are "saved" because of God's grace not our works.
"8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
God chose some of us to be in Christ before the disruption of the world.
"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will" (Ephesians 1:3-5)
We are not justified by our works but through Christ.
"18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Romans 5:18,19)
The value of our works will be determined at the Dais, but that is not about our salvation.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement017.html
Quote from: Tom on September 21, 2013, 08:12:20 PM
God is the savior of all mankind.
We are "saved" because of God's grace not our works.
We are not justified by our works but through Christ.
The value of our works will be determined at the Dais, but that is not about our salvation.
Thanks for that Tom. I've had a bit to say in the 2 recent threads, but truth is, some things I believe and hold fast to ("I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through me" - Jesus, and "by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves..not works but the gift of God"). The truth is that there are things about the 2 topics I'm really not clear on/sure of, and am questioning, seeking, and wishing to understand. On the other hand, I believe all that we know or think we know boils down to this; the Person, Jesus, Savior of the world. Amen.
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 08:25:22 PM
Quote from: Tom on September 21, 2013, 08:12:20 PM
God is the savior of all mankind.
We are "saved" because of God's grace not our works.
We are not justified by our works but through Christ.
The value of our works will be determined at the Dais, but that is not about our salvation.
Thanks for that Tom. I've had a bit to say in the 2 recent threads, but truth is, some things I believe and hold fast to ("I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but through me" - Jesus, and "by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves..not works but the gift of God"). The truth is that there are things about the 2 topics I'm really not clear on/sure of, and am questioning, seeking, and wishing to understand. On the other hand, I believe all that we know or think we know boils down to this; the Person, Jesus, Savior of the world. Amen.
I think any suggestion that we somehow earn our salvation just dishonors Christ's sacrifice on the cross. That is what determined our salvation. That is why God is conciliated to mankind. It is our responsibility to share that fact with those who have not been conciliated to God.
Thanks Tom. In the meantime, I was typing this. (Your name's in it. :).
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 10:19:52 AM
First of all John, I agree with a lot of what you say here,So let me see if I'm anywhere close to understanding your view on this, IMO, quite complicated subject
I'm gonna go study on this, because I believe it's "believe and confess the Lord Jesus", and "there's no other name", and "I am the way..no one comes through the Father but by Me". But I'll admit, Romans 2 fits in there somewhere. I just believe it and all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.
Well John, after sleeping on this, I recall a conversation you and I had where we found some agreement/understanding about Romans 2. That even though good works cannot save/redeem/give anyone the spiritual new birth resultant of bowing and confessing Jesus when they're drawn and given faith to do so, that it has to do with "few stripes/many stripes".
Which again brings up the whole judgment aspect, i.e., who gets what...and that's up to God. He knows. Related questions then might be; what's the [general] difference between judgment of unbelievers and believers (Tom?), and what are the benefits of the Good News now in this age, and having been called into the ecclesia vs. living for the devil as one's father? A thought that occurs - it's as God wills. According to His plan. And He knows why some are used one way and one another. Yet we are told to share the Good News, and Paul said "be reconciled to God", and the jailer had a desparate need to be saved; "gentleman, what must I do to be saved"... As I've thought about all this, I do know the main focus needs to be on
HIM. Blessings.
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 08:50:52 PM
Thanks Tom. In the meantime, I was typing this. (Your name's in it. :).
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 10:19:52 AM
First of all John, I agree with a lot of what you say here,So let me see if I'm anywhere close to understanding your view on this, IMO, quite complicated subject
I'm gonna go study on this, because I believe it's "believe and confess the Lord Jesus", and "there's no other name", and "I am the way..no one comes through the Father but by Me". But I'll admit, Romans 2 fits in there somewhere. I just believe it and all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.
Well John, after sleeping on this, I recall a conversation you and I had where we found some agreement/understanding about Romans 2. That even though good works cannot save/redeem/give anyone the spiritual new birth resultant of bowing and confessing Jesus when they're drawn and given faith to do so, that it has to do with "few stripes/many stripes". Which again brings up the whole judgment aspect, i.e., who gets what...and that's up to God. He knows. Related questions then might be; what's the [general] difference between judgment of unbelievers and believers (Tom?), and what are the benefits of the Good News now in this age, and having been called into the ecclesia vs. living for the devil as one's father? A thought that occurs - it's as God wills. According to His plan. And He knows why some are used one way and one another. Yet we are told to share the Good News, and Paul said "be reconciled to God", and the jailer had a desparate need to be saved; "gentleman, what must I do to be saved"... As I've thought about all this, I do know the main focus needs to be on HIM. Blessings.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil022.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement006.html
This is a short explanation about "the benefits" because I have to tend to my handicapped sister now.
I would say "the benefits of the Good News now in this age, and having been called into the ecclesia" are the fruit of the spirit.
"Now the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23)
It is a great benefit to have an expectation of immortality and to know God "is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11) to save "all mankind" (1 Timothy 4:10) and "reconcile all" (Colossians 1:20). This is especially comforting to those of us who have been taught that some of our loved ones will be tortured in fire forever.
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 10:19:52 AM
many with a good conscience and kind heart, etc., will be more ready and in a closer position of acknowleding Him as Savior.. Not that their works has "earned" them a "pass" (given them spiritual new birth, i.e., passed from death unto life) but they're "rewarded" ("excused") for following an "inner voice", in that faith and belief for them is more easily attained? EDIT/ADDITION [few stripes/many stripes? But then why would a reborn believer, raised to life, seated in the heavenlies with Christ receive any stripes? Are we sure Jesus' words about rewards, works, and stripes didn't at least have something specifically to do with the end of that age of LAW (that judgment of Gehenna), since all those words were spoken to Jews prior to the cross?? Or maybe "in that day" really did mean in that Day, i.e., the consummation) - or maybe both. :Chinscratch:
.. all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.
Tom, I'm quoting this from my earlier post, because I'm wondering if you'd know what Mr. Knoch's take on that might be, in your own straightforward language/way of expressing it, that you may have previously gleaned? (or any other comments/insights, of course, from anyone). I should have gone and looked at the context of those verses, but maybe I can later. I"ve pretty much always
thought it had to do with the final judgment day. Just exploring and looking for possible connections and/or divisions. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on September 22, 2013, 02:06:23 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 21, 2013, 10:19:52 AM
many with a good conscience and kind heart, etc., will be more ready and in a closer position of acknowleding Him as Savior.. Not that their works has "earned" them a "pass" (given them spiritual new birth, i.e., passed from death unto life) but they're "rewarded" ("excused") for following an "inner voice", in that faith and belief for them is more easily attained? EDIT/ADDITION [few stripes/many stripes? But then why would a reborn believer, raised to life, seated in the heavenlies with Christ receive any stripes? Are we sure Jesus' words about rewards, works, and stripes didn't at least have something specifically to do with the end of that age of LAW (that judgment of Gehenna), since all those words were spoken to Jews prior to the cross?? Or maybe "in that day" really did mean in that Day, i.e., the consummation) - or maybe both. :Chinscratch:
.. all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.
Tom, I'm quoting this from my earlier post, because I'm wondering if you'd know what Mr. Knoch's take on that might be, in your own straightforward language/way of expressing it, that you may have previously gleaned? (or any other comments/insights, of course, from anyone). I should have gone and looked at the context of those verses, but maybe I can later. I"ve pretty much always thought it had to do with the final judgment day. Just exploring and looking for possible connections and/or divisions. Thanks.
"47 Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him." (Luke 12:47,48)
"47 All God's judgments are tempered by attending circumstances. He does not require His creatures to live up to light which they do not have. Yet His judgments increase in severity according to the privileges enjoyed. Thus it is that Israel is subject to the most awful of the inflictions of the end time. How thankful we should be that His grace not only bestows transcendent privilege but brings immunity from judgment as well!" (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 116)
Hmmm..interesting. I want to go to the Concordant site later and read more on that. Thanks!
Quote, James: John, you said believing that someone goes to "hell" (or even kolasin aionian, temporary corrective discipline) on the day of judgment is an ET concept and error. You also said someone saved (spiritually reborn - my interpretation) in this life has passed from life unto death. So do you (or anyone) believe then there is no correction at all for those folks? (yet as far as I know, all who live in this flesh of clay still carry sin with them). I've seen that view, that basically death and the loss of the literal flesh = "judgment over, salvation accomplished". I don't believe y[ou believe that John, but how do you see it? Do you/we/anyone think it's just quickly burned away/falls away without consequence?
Actually what I said, or at least what I was trying to say(I may not hav been cllear), is that I think it is an error when people teach that everyone who goes before the great white throne will go into hell/lake of fire/kolassis etc. As I read it Romans two teaches that some will be excused by their conscience and some will be accused- and that the secrets of their hearts (laid open before Jesus Christ) will be the criteria.
Quote, John:However, one of the foundations of ET doctrine is that if you are not saved now you will go to hell on "the Day". I think this is an error- whether it is held by ET or UR believers.
Those who are saved(delivered) now hav passed from death unto life.
Everyone else will be judged in the Day, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their conscience will either excuse them or accuse them on the DAY God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ."
I believe that there WILL be myriads of people who will face kolassis(corrective discipline) at the Great Whte Throne. Sort of like the sheep and goats- some to the left some to the right, etc.
What is taught all too often- again, IMO, is that if you dont receive Jesus here it is ALWAYS because of rebellion. I believe Romans 1 & 2 presents a different view. There will be many who stand before Him from this age having never heard the formal gospel. There will be many who stand before Him from the previous ages, having never heard the law. There, for instance be many children who stand before Him having never reached the age of decision, many adults who never heard the gospel in a form we could stand behind as believers in UR(the only true gospel).
As I said in my previous post- the parable of the good samaritan is, imo, the clearest teaching Jesus gives on how God judges. To infer that a Samaritan man(idolatrous and worse than a heathen to the Jews) could be justified before God while a Pharisee or a Levite would not- was HUGE insult to the teachers of Jesus day, the priesthood of the nation Israel. He was teaching that knowledge is NOT the key to believing, love and kindness are.
If our hearts are like tuning forks, they vibrate in harmony with YHWH and Messiah- or they do not.
All I am saying is that for me, the scriptures teach in these passages that God sees Jesus in us in a different way than we do. God looks on the heart- man looks on the outward appearance. For me, this is not talking about just dress and conduct- but rather WORDS VERSUS BEING. WHAT WE KNOW VERSUS WHO WE ARE. I see Jesus portraying this truth in many parables.
Also I am saying, re: the Day, some will rejoice at His appearing who never knew in their heads before that Day- but knew Him in their hearts- and expressed it in their love for their fellow man, even tho they were ignorant.
I also agree that there are many applications for the word "saved"- in fact that was my point :o)
We are saved NOW. Some will be saved THEN when they stand before Him. Others will be saved after kolassis, experiencing what Jesus called "aish olam"(hebrew) or "aionian pur"(greek) and that we(incorrectly in my opinion) call age-during fire. EVERYKNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER before they "enter in" to full union,the "anakephalaiomai"(summing up of all things in Christ).............................. the all in all.
I may hav a difficult time keeping up with this thread rite now, but I will do the best I can. I am only offering my opinions on what I read in the scriptures.
Again EW :thumbsup:
That very well sums up my thoughts.
Thanks John. I'm real close to you on most of this, well said. God used your thoughts to help clarify some things for me that I had been thinking about. :HeartThrob: The following is still me thinking out loud, realizing some things, etc..
I consider the following a bit differently;
Quote from: eaglesway on September 22, 2013, 08:28:16 AM
Also I am saying, re: the Day, some will rejoice at His appearing who never knew in their heads before that Day- but knew Him in their hearts- and expressed it in their love for their fellow man, even tho they were ignorant.
I don't believe we know Him, unless and until we
know Him in saving faith that He provides, i.e., "call on the name", "believe in Jesus, and how can they believe unless someone TELLS them..", etc. (otherwise, wouldn't we just tell people to be nice - or nothing at all, rather than Paul's declaration, "be you reconciled to God [Q. "what MUST I do to be saved?" The Holy Spirit through Paul's Answer - "Believe on Jesus"]. Many people died and many are still dying for proclaiming that Good News. They die for the
NAME, not for being kind and loving.) So I believe nice people with a loving disposition and clean conscience, can still be lost and in need of the Savior. YET - it indeed was helpful and I"m much in agreement with the way you put the rest of your thoughts - and how you really kind of summarized a lot of the issue - on the conscience issue (Rom. 2) and how that some will be much closer to rejoicing at His appearing and more readily to ("immediately!") recognize and accept Him as Lord and Savior, while others will need to have corrective discipline - depending on the condition of their/our heart, conscience, etc. So to me, really summing up all your comments, and a really good and vital "icing on the cake" IMO, is the following;
Quote from: eaglesway on September 22, 2013, 08:28:16 AM
We are saved NOW. Some will be saved THEN when they stand before Him. Others will be saved after kolassis, experiencing what Jesus called "aish olam"(hebrew) or "aionian pur"(greek) and that we(incorrectly in my opinion) call age-during fire. EVERYKNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER before they "enter in" to full union,the "anakephalaiomai"(summing up of all things in Christ).............................. the all in all.
Thank you for that. I believe that's VERY important, and often left out in these type discussions and issues - when we can start talking and thinking about all types of
other important things, i.e., love, conscience, works, etc. - that it's still only through the gift of faith and grace, some given it now, others later - and that everything is leading up to, as you said in caps :) :thumbsup: EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER".. Amen, and thanks John for an excellent post that the Spirit used to minister to me. Blessings.
I have always felt that if Jesus was to suddenly appear and walk this earth dressed in modern garb, most would not even stop and bid him the time of day. I think Paul gives credence to this as there seems to be a falling away; however, in many ways there is a "coming together" also.
I am thinking that ONLY those with spiritual eyes opened by Father will "see" the Christ for who he is, in what ever form he manifests. But then there are those that have preto been blinded and unable to see, what of them?
Surely, Father will remove the blinders from their eyes and the sudden rush of light, truth, peace and most of all LOVE :HeartThrob: will give no reason for anyone to not know and fully understand who and what Jesus the Christ is.
As such, this might well be an opening of the heart allowing Christ to be seen in Spirit. Now for the $69 question. Could anyone turn from this or would they follow Jesus as a young child holds the hand of a big brother as he leads the way? I ask this because, if Christ in all his Glory with trumpets sounding and Angels singing isn't enough then surely puny man with a bucket of sin is more powerful than Christ with the love of Father.
Just Julie thinking aloud again. :HeartThrob:
Love, Julie
Jab....wht aboutthose ofwhom it is written...they are a law unto themselves.....if you apply that
unto the two royal laws.......surely itis God in them causing then towill anddoHisgoodpleasure?
or Jonadab...that obeyed theirfather'scommand..to dwell in tents and not drink wine....
andGod used those ofthegentile nations to rebuke His own covenant people. Saying,'Iwill always
have him stand before me[Jonadab] In other words...Fathersays...."it's pretty bad when
the other nations behave better then my people." He's not ahypocrite..and He does not
judge unjustly. Jesus waas amazed at thefaithexhibited by the people of the nations..but
distressed of the lack of faith in the jews.
What if nice loving kind people want nothing to do with those who blasphemously
andhypocritically and self-righteously proclaim to represent the Christ onearth?
I sought Him in allthechurches..from a very young age...anddid NOT find Himthere.......
how does any man know those who are hiddenin Christ? the world does notknow Him...
many have come in Hisname..saying...'Iam the Christ" but they are liars..robbers andtheives
Beleive and hear Him..beleive the spirit of Elijah..and make straight paths for your feet.....
Behold the Lambof Godwho takes away the sinofthe world. It isfinished! the salvationof
allmen..the faith in Him accomplishing that[beleif] the hope that is sure[though you do not behold
it as yet with your eyes] andthe love for God and all men. Compels us to walk and live in
that divine pronouncement.
the gates of the Holy city are never closed....'Come take life's water free" The free gift oflife
is given to all that have perished in Adam.
John 8 the validity ofJesus testimony.. The Pharisee's challenged that Jesus testimony was not
valid Hetoldthem..v 15 you judge byhumanstandards...I pass judgement on no-one...
Jesus said"I am one who testifies for myself..my other wittness is the father who sent me"
I met some good folks in churches, but I never found a church with the correct doctrine. We are blessed to have the inspired written word of God for the correct doctrine. I believe God is just, and I do not believe a just God would torture anybody in fire forever. I believe some are chosen from before the disruption of the world to have faith and be saved for eonian life, and some are chosen to come to God through Christ by judgment before the great white throne. I believe all those who died not believing in Christ will be judged there and will then experience the second death. Their fate is not to be tortured alive in fire forever because they will be dead meaning they will not be conscious of any sensation.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
There is debate about whether the lake of fire is literal or figurative. I personally think it is literal, but the point is that it is called "the second death-the lake of fire" because those that are cast into it will be dead until they are vivified at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. Death is like sleep. Scripture says the dead are reposing. So, even though those who die as unbelievers will not have eonian life, they will not be suffering, and they will eventually be immortalized.
God is merciful even to unbelievers because it is only according to God's will that some have not been given faith.
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
"faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed" (Hebrews 11:1)
Faith from the Greek "pistis" literally means "belief."
How could a just God hold those who have not been given faith responsible for not having it and then torture them in fire forever because of that?
"God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day." (Romans 11:8)
That is why those who die as unbelievers will simply be reposing during "the eon of the eons." The living God of Hebrew and Greek scripture is merciful and wise not vindictive and sadistic as the god of church doctrine.
"The dais" where we will be requited is not "the great white throne" where unbelievers are judged.
"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
"10 The dais, or raised platform from which games were judged and awards given, must not be confused with a judicial bench. The quality of our acts may determine the award to which we are entitled, but the question of condemnation is entirely foreign to such a tribunal. We are absolutely absolved from all condemnation, but we are eligible to an award for meritorious service. These awards will be distributed at the dais of Christ, according to our acts in "the" body, that is, our present soulish bodies." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 270)
But our "works" is not what "save" us. In grace, through faith, are we saved (Ephesians 2:8,9). Our "works" are our acts of love that are the result of the inspiration of God. I believe God even inspires unbelievers to love. They have just not been given faith to believe God is love, and that is according to God's will.
"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)
I know this thread is titled "Faith, works, and grace," but I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: jabcat on September 22, 2013, 03:29:24 PM
Thanks John. I'm real close to you on most of this, well said. God used your thoughts to help clarify some things for me that I had been thinking about. :HeartThrob: The following is still me thinking out loud, realizing some things, etc..
I consider the following a bit differently;
Quote from: eaglesway on September 22, 2013, 08:28:16 AM
Also I am saying, re: the Day, some will rejoice at His appearing who never knew in their heads before that Day- but knew Him in their hearts- and expressed it in their love for their fellow man, even tho they were ignorant.
I don't believe we know Him, unless and until we know Him in saving faith that He provides, i.e., "call on the name", "believe in Jesus, and how can they believe unless someone TELLS them..", etc. (otherwise, wouldn't we just tell people to be nice - or nothing at all, rather than Paul's declaration, "be you reconciled to God [Q. "what MUST I do to be saved?" The Holy Spirit through Paul's Answer - "Believe on Jesus"]. Many people died and many are still dying for proclaiming that Good News. They die for the NAME, not for being kind and loving.) So I believe nice people with a loving disposition and clean conscience, can still be lost and in need of the Savior. YET - it indeed was helpful and I"m much in agreement with the way you put the rest of your thoughts - and how you really kind of summarized a lot of the issue - on the conscience issue (Rom. 2) and how that some will be much closer to rejoicing at His appearing and more readily to ("immediately!") recognize and accept Him as Lord and Savior, while others will need to have corrective discipline - depending on the condition of their/our heart, conscience, etc. So to me, really summing up all your comments, and a really good and vital "icing on the cake" IMO, is the following;
Quote from: eaglesway on September 22, 2013, 08:28:16 AM
We are saved NOW. Some will be saved THEN when they stand before Him. Others will be saved after kolassis, experiencing what Jesus called "aish olam"(hebrew) or "aionian pur"(greek) and that we(incorrectly in my opinion) call age-during fire. EVERYKNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER before they "enter in" to full union,the "anakephalaiomai"(summing up of all things in Christ).............................. the all in all.
Thank you for that. I believe that's VERY important, and often left out in these type discussions and issues - when we can start talking and thinking about all types of other important things, i.e., love, conscience, works, etc. - that it's still only through the gift of faith and grace, some given it now, others later - and that everything is leading up to, as you said in caps :) :thumbsup: EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER".. Amen, and thanks John for an excellent post that the Spirit used to minister to me. Blessings.
Yes, I see you are saying there James, and I think it goes partially to our defintion of what saved is. When I say that some people know him in their hearts a couple of good examples are:
Moses, when he stood on holy ground, said- "Who shall I say sent me". The answer was, "I am that I am" from which we get YHWH. Moses saw Him and knew Him but wanted to know the name.
In another place, the Psalmist says says- "You have glorified your word above all your name". Ps 138:2
When Moses saw Him he acknowledged Him and asked for His name.
My personal belief is that no one comes into the body of Christ without the name. "Be ye saved from this perverse generation." Acts 2 -Saved into a new generation(the last/second Adam-behold I make all things new)
However, along the lines of the Hebrew belief of "righteous goyim"- a concept some of the rabbis taught of Gentiles who obeyed the 7 Noahide laws, were friends to Israel, etc(they believed in the resurrection of the righteous gentiles)....I believe that when such peopl, who are described in Romans 1 and 2 and the parable of the Good Samaritan- stand before Him on the Day they will rejoice to see HIM. This is(seeing Him and rejoicing) salvation and it is declared in Philippians 2:10- "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
So,
I am not saying anyone will get saved by good works or by love without Jesus. I am saying anyone who truly walked in love in this life, and acted accordingly, having never heard the gospel, or having been among the many millions or even billions who lived before the gospel- WILL REJOICE TO SEE HIM IN THE DAY.
They will bow the knee and confess His Lordship joyfully and "enter in" to the joy of their Lord(salvation/restoration/aionian life). Jesus prayed that we be "one"(in His love) that our joy may be full. This joy is the anakepholaomai"(EPh 1:10)- the "gathering together of all things into one" in Christ- the ultimate destiny of every creature in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.
Every creature will bow before the name that is named above every name- each in his own order.
Many, on that Day, who knew the name, but did not know Him in their hearts(as attested by their works Matthew 7:21-23) will pass through the fire/light of His penetrating gaze before they bow the knee(Mt 25)
As Jesus taught:
25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
John, I see more what you're saying too, and it's definitely been helpful and used of the Lord. Thank you.
Quote from: sheila on September 22, 2013, 06:37:53 PM
Jab....wht aboutthose ofwhom it is written...they are a law unto themselves.....if you apply that
unto the two royal laws.......surely itis God in them causing then towill anddoHisgoodpleasure?
Hi sheila. Yes, I agree with you on this, in that, God can use anyone and anything, and do whatever He wishes of such. I often identify with the donkey He had talk. And yet
Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2013, 01:51:56 AM
My personal belief is that no one comes into the body of Christ without the name. "Be ye saved from this perverse generation." Acts 2 -Saved into a new generation(the last/second Adam-behold I make all things new)
... they will rejoice to see HIM. This is(seeing Him and rejoicing) salvation and it is declared in Philippians 2:10- "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
So,
I am not saying anyone will get saved by good works or by love without Jesus. I am saying anyone who truly walked in love in this life, and acted accordingly, having never heard the gospel, or having been among the many millions or even billions who lived before the gospel- WILL REJOICE TO SEE HIM IN THE DAY.
They will bow the knee and confess His Lordship joyfully and "enter in" to the joy of their Lord(salvation/restoration/aionian life).
is very much how I understand it too. Also
Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2013, 08:37:36 PM
But our "works" is not what "save" us. In grace, through faith, are we saved (Ephesians 2:8,9). Our "works" are our acts of love that are the result of the inspiration of God. I believe God even inspires unbelievers to love. They have just not been given faith to believe God is love, and that is according to God's will.
"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)
I know this thread is titled "Faith, works, and grace," but I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.
So as I understand, "just" [just is a dumb description, but for lack of a better word] because God chooses to use someone, speak through them, bless them, cause His light to shine on them, doesn't mean they are as yet spiritually reborn through being given faith to believe on the Son ("who are you, Lord?".. "I Am He..."). Yet, those who haven't heard and have lived according to a good conscience, etc. as noted above and elsewhere in the discussion, I personally
believe will "immediately" recognize Who He Is when He reveals His Person and Name to them, and they will be given immediate faith to believe and embrace Him as Lord and Savior. I believe it's the same with the mentally ill, the mentally infirm, etc...they have nothing to be "corrected" of, other than be delivered of the clothing of flesh and be given faith to see Him as He is, and believe and embrace Him with their new mind and "heart".
As far as the looking for Him in various churches - I think that's such a varied and individual thing, it would be hard to specifically address. I don't know what "churches" you attended. I don't know if 1 person there knew Him, or if 100 did, according to the gift of saving faith. But generally, I certainly do think God exists in many of those groups and individuals (though I believe some are indeed apostate and He has left them/spewed them out of His mouth - until the regeneration of all things). Another issue may be, that's not where He
wanted you to "find" Him. Because basically, I truly believe
He finds
us - when it's His timing and within the workings of His will. So maybe He was beginning to draw you, and was only waiting in a certain time and certain place (literally and figuratively) to truly reveal Himself to you, and have you come into the family? All of that is general suppositions, suggestions. You'll know what is the truth of it.
And to me, this
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 22, 2013, 04:08:07 PM
I am thinking that ONLY those with spiritual eyes opened by Father will "see" the Christ for who he is, in what ever form he manifests. But then there are those that have preto been blinded and unable to see, what of them?
Surely, Father will remove the blinders from their eyes and the sudden rush of light, truth, peace and most of all LOVE :HeartThrob: will give no reason for anyone to not know and fully understand who and what Jesus the Christ is.
ties into all the above.
Good discussion, thanks and blessings. Those are some of my understandings, at this point, as the Lord continues to help me "work through it"; and according to an old song I thought of today; "as I sit and learn at Jesus' feet, I am free yes free indeed. It is joy unspeakable and full of glory, oh the half has never yet been told".
Blessings, James.
Quote from: jabcat on September 23, 2013, 02:55:04 AM
John, I see more what you're saying too, and it's definitely been helpful and used of the Lord. Thank you.
Quote from: sheila on September 22, 2013, 06:37:53 PM
Jab....wht aboutthose ofwhom it is written...they are a law unto themselves.....if you apply that
unto the two royal laws.......surely itis God in them causing then towill anddoHisgoodpleasure?
Hi sheila. Yes, I agree with you on this, in that, God can use anyone and anything, and do whatever He wishes of such. I often identify with the donkey He had talk. And yet
Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2013, 01:51:56 AM
My personal belief is that no one comes into the body of Christ without the name. "Be ye saved from this perverse generation." Acts 2 -Saved into a new generation(the last/second Adam-behold I make all things new)
... they will rejoice to see HIM. This is(seeing Him and rejoicing) salvation and it is declared in Philippians 2:10- "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
So,
I am not saying anyone will get saved by good works or by love without Jesus. I am saying anyone who truly walked in love in this life, and acted accordingly, having never heard the gospel, or having been among the many millions or even billions who lived before the gospel- WILL REJOICE TO SEE HIM IN THE DAY.
They will bow the knee and confess His Lordship joyfully and "enter in" to the joy of their Lord(salvation/restoration/aionian life).
is very much how I understand it too. Also
Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2013, 08:37:36 PM
But our "works" is not what "save" us. In grace, through faith, are we saved (Ephesians 2:8,9). Our "works" are our acts of love that are the result of the inspiration of God. I believe God even inspires unbelievers to love. They have just not been given faith to believe God is love, and that is according to God's will.
"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)
I know this thread is titled "Faith, works, and grace," but I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.
So as I understand, "just" [just is a dumb description, but for lack of a better word] because God chooses to use someone, speak through them, bless them, cause His light to shine on them, doesn't mean they are as yet spiritually reborn through being given faith to believe on the Son ("who are you, Lord?".. "I Am He..."). Yet, those who haven't heard and have lived according to a good conscience, etc. as noted above and elsewhere in the discussion, I personally believe will "immediately" recognize Who He Is when He reveals His Person and Name to them, and they will be given immediate faith to believe and embrace Him as Lord and Savior. I believe it's the same with the mentally ill, the mentally infirm, etc...they have nothing to be "corrected" of, other than be delivered of the clothing of flesh and be given faith to see Him as He is, and believe and embrace Him with their new mind and "heart".
As far as the looking for Him in various churches - I think that's such a varied and individual thing, it would be hard to specifically address. I don't know what "churches" you attended. I don't know if 1 person there knew Him, or if 100 did, according to the gift of saving faith. But generally, I certainly do think God exists in many of those groups and individuals (though I believe some are indeed apostate and He has left them/spewed them out of His mouth - until the regeneration of all things). Another issue may be, that's not where He wanted you to "find" Him. Because basically, I truly believe He finds us - when it's His timing and within the workings of His will. So maybe He was beginning to draw you, and was only waiting in a certain time and certain place (literally and figuratively) to truly reveal Himself to you, and have you come into the family? All of that is general suppositions, suggestions. You'll know what is the truth of it.
And to me, this
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 22, 2013, 04:08:07 PM
I am thinking that ONLY those with spiritual eyes opened by Father will "see" the Christ for who he is, in what ever form he manifests. But then there are those that have preto been blinded and unable to see, what of them?
Surely, Father will remove the blinders from their eyes and the sudden rush of light, truth, peace and most of all LOVE :HeartThrob: will give no reason for anyone to not know and fully understand who and what Jesus the Christ is.
ties into all the above.
Good discussion, thanks and blessings. Those are some of my understandings, at this point, as the Lord continues to help me "work through it"; and according to an old song I thought of today; "as I sit and learn at Jesus' feet, I am free yes free indeed. It is joy unspeakable and full of glory, oh the half has never yet been told".
Blessings, James.
I think all will know they are in the presence of the Lord when they are judged before the great white throne, and that will make believers out of the unbelievers. So they too will come to God through Christ by sight rather than by faith, but, because they have not been chosen for eonian life, they will be reposing until the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and all mankind is vivified.
What I was saying about the "churches" was I met some good people who were believers and were loving brothers and sisters, but the doctrine of the churches was torture forever in fire for unbelievers. That's why I don't belong to a church anymore, and I don't believe the creeds established by Rome. I only believe the word of God.
Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2013, 08:37:36 PM
I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.
Amen
Quote from: jabcat on September 23, 2013, 08:58:15 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2013, 08:37:36 PM
I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.
Amen
To the believers/ecclesia in Ephesus;
Eph. 1:15 For this reason,
ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus..
Made Alive in Christ
2:1 As for you,
you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 ..when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us,
God, who is rich in
mercy,
5
made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—
it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And
God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
8 For it is
by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves,
it is the gift of God— 9
not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For
we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Quote from: jabcat on September 23, 2013, 08:58:15 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2013, 08:37:36 PM
I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.
Amen
I agree with this. Grace(unmerited favor) is like the rain falling in the just and the unjust. Only God knows who is which :doh:
Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2013, 09:38:54 AM
Quote from: jabcat on September 23, 2013, 08:58:15 AM
Quote from: Tom on September 22, 2013, 08:37:36 PM
I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.
Amen
I agree with this. Grace(unmerited favor) is like the rain falling in the just and the unjust. Only God knows who is which :doh:
Agreed. He's in control of it, and knows who, what, and when. :)
God's the Judge of each of us, and His judgments are righteous, just, and He is merciful.
I figure if we share the truth in love that Jesus is the Savior we all need, the Holy Spirit draws who needs drawn, fills who needs filled, and reassures and comforts all who know Him. All according to the counsel of His will. I sure don't know what's in peoples' heart, and only God can change a heart.
I went looking for "His Spirit bears witness with our spirit", and found it in this passage;
Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ..the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
But if Christ is in you.. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
.. When we cry, 'Abba! Father!' that very Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..
Quote from: Tom on September 23, 2013, 03:46:18 AM
I think all will know they are in the presence of the Lord when they are judged before the great white throne, and that will make believers out of the unbelievers. So they too will come to God through Christ by sight rather than by faith, but, because they have not been chosen for eonian life," they will be reposing until the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and all mankind is vivified.
What I was saying about the "churches" was I met some good people who were believers and were loving brothers and sisters, but the doctrine of the churches was torture forever in fire for unbelievers. That's why I don't belong to a church anymore, and I don't believe the creeds established by Rome. I only believe the word of God.
This is interesting Tom. I used to think that the multitude would stand in fear and dread before the great white throne. For some strange reason, I always saw myself standing before Father and telling him that I will gladly take all the punishment I deserve. Read Plenty!!!
But, as I have awakened spiritually, I see everyone standing before Father pleading Him for the CORRECTION that will remove forever the blackness of sin that shades the divine Light of the Christ in each and every person. Where once I saw dread, I now see cheering.
Father is everything you can imagine about PURE LOVE to the power of the infinity.
We just have no concept of what standing in Pure Light is, but it is going to be BEAUTIFUL!!! :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
Quote from: JulieTang84 on September 23, 2013, 06:37:10 PM
Quote from: Tom on September 23, 2013, 03:46:18 AM
I think all will know they are in the presence of the Lord when they are judged before the great white throne, and that will make believers out of the unbelievers. So they too will come to God through Christ by sight rather than by faith, but, because they have not been chosen for eonian life," they will be reposing until the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and all mankind is vivified.
What I was saying about the "churches" was I met some good people who were believers and were loving brothers and sisters, but the doctrine of the churches was torture forever in fire for unbelievers. That's why I don't belong to a church anymore, and I don't believe the creeds established by Rome. I only believe the word of God.
This is interesting Tom. I used to think that the multitude would stand in fear and dread before the great white throne. For some strange reason, I always saw myself standing before Father and telling him that I will gladly take all the punishment I deserve. Read Plenty!!!
But, as I have awakened spiritually, I see everyone standing before Father pleading Him for the CORRECTION that will remove forever the blackness of sin that shades the divine Light of the Christ in each and every person. Where once I saw dread, I now see cheering.
Father is everything you can imagine about PURE LOVE to the power of the infinity.
We just have no concept of what standing in Pure Light is, but it is going to be BEAUTIFUL!!! :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
Love Julie
I think unbelievers who are judged before the great white throne will be humbled by their exposed sins, and they will be unable to deny Christ any longer because they will see him with their own eyes.
We believers are "justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24) and therefore will not be judged before the great white throne, but we will receive wages for our good work before the dais where our bad work will be burned up.
"If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14,15)
I have seen the light. It is not only "beautiful," but it is an experience of unconditional love and total peace.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil021.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html
"Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian" (2 Timothy 1:9)
While the sentiment around the view that everyone will be humbled and won by the love of God in Christ at the Great White Throne is commendable- and I could wish it were true- I dont think it is what the scriptures attest to- especially Jesus in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25, and John, in Revleation concerning the lake of fire. A further period of kolassis appear to be in store for the wicked according to what I read in Paul, the gospels, Jude, and others. :2c:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil029.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/JudgmentAndDeath.html
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: eaglesway on September 24, 2013, 05:59:06 AM
While the sentiment around the view that everyone will be humbled and won by the love of God in Christ at the Great White Throne is commendable- and I could wish it were true- I dont think it is what the scriptures attest to- especially Jesus in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25, and John, in Revleation concerning the lake of fire. A further period of kolassis appear to be in store for the wicked according to what I read in Paul, the gospels, Jude, and others. :2c:
I said unbelievers would become "believers" before the "great white throne" because they will see the Lord with their own eyes, but they will then experience "the second death-the lake of fire." That involves the dead who died as unbelievers, and it happens 1000 years after the judgments of the nations of Matthew 25:31-46 which involves the "kolasin aionion" literally "chastening eonian."
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:46)
"46 Eonian chastening is here limited to the nations who will not succor the faithful of Israel in their time of sore distress. It has no bearing on the sins of individuals. The justice of fire eonian is disciplinary and corrective (cf Jude 7)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 49)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/EonianFireAndJudging.html
I get that Tom. However, the word "believers" is a fuzzy thing sometimes. James said, "You believe that God is one? The devils believe as well and tremble".
The idea being(as I see it)- that recognizing Jesus for who He is, and declaring that (Lord, Lord!) is not necessarily the same as bowing the knee and confessing(from a rejoicing converted heart) His Lordship. The idea that aionian kolassis has no bearing on individuals is, in my opinion, contradictory to the words of Jesus(Mat 7 Mat 25) and Paul(Roman 1 and 2).
In fact, Jesus concentrated on individuals and spoke t people as individuals and warned us as individuals.
Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.
Many people Jesus spoke of had done works IN HIS NAME. They would not even fit in a category of nations that did or did not succor Israel because their approaval or disapproval was based on their individual works(in that their works revealed their hearts).
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink..... depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
I was naked and you clothed me.....enter into the joy of your Lord
So, as I said before.... I just dont see the scriptures supporting a view that their is no kolassis for individuals past the Great White Throne, or that everyone will be converted/reconciled at the Great White Throne.
Now- I am not saying I have all the truth, I may well be wrong, but I would like to see an answer for the scriptures I post -from the scriptures, rather than platitudes, anecdotes and commentary excerpts- because, as I said before, I think it is a wonderful sentiment and I would wish it were true, but it don't line up for me. :o)
re: the word "believers" is a fuzzy thing sometimes.
eaglesway, I agree and I have done some thinking and studying about this serious issue as there are as many different type of "believers" as there are denominations (including UR) but maybe a new thread should be started in the Word Studies section: Believers
for now, consider Peter and Paul, both believed Jesus after the flesh:
Saul/Paul persecuted "believers" of Jesus, being zealous for the things of God and Simon/Peter was enthralled with Jesus because of the things he heard Jesus say and saw what Jesus was able to do.
Paul had what many call the Damascus experience and Peter had the Pentecost experience.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I think many are not sure of the 1000 year reign
Peter touched on the ignorance of so many and not wanting to leave those who believe in the dark / ignorance and stated , 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
It does NOT say ungodly men are burned up forever but the works are!!
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
God it is a Day /1000 year and we know God only created 7 days
and consider the children of the DAY /Light are those shining by the Knowledge of God though Jesus Christ .
I find only 2 places kolassis is used in the bible
Mat 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
but what about the new heavens and earth for those made rightous in Jesus Christ and those works of the old heavens and earth are burned up in the DAY OF GOD
Will that eternal punishment / works of old end than ?
1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Please , when we think of eternal , its forever .
That is what stumps everyone ! and it did me for alot of years .
Yet the Lord Himself said there will be an END ???
when satan/ adversary is divided against satan / adversary , HE CANNOT STAND but has an end
when the Lord God said the end of all flesh as the days of Noah by the water , so Peter was saying the same the end of all flesh would also come to an end as by Fire .
Jesus come to divide and take the peace from the world by setting it on FIRE Luke 12 ; 49
these works of the flesh are being burned up and dissolved
I BELIEVE JESUS WORDS 49 "I have come to set the world on fire, and I wish it were already burning! 50 I have a terrible baptism of suffering ahead of me, and I am under a heavy burden until it is accomplished. 51 Do you think I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I have come to divide people against each other! 52 From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me, and two against—or two in favor and three against.
53 'Father will be divided against son
and son against father;
mother against daughter
and daughter against mother;
and mother-in-law against daughter-in-law
and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.'"
54 Then Jesus turned to the crowd and said, "When you see clouds beginning to form in the west, you say, 'Here comes a shower.' And you are right. 55 When the south wind blows, you say, 'Today will be a scorcher.' And it is. 56 You fools! You know how to interpret the weather signs of the earth and sky, but you don't know how to interpret the present times.
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rom 14:7 For none of us lives to himself, and no man dies to himself.
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:
whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
But why doyou judge your brother? or why do you set at nought your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1Cr 15:24 Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cr 15:26 The last enemy is death
we know hell and death are cast into the LAKE OF FIRE
and this is GODS perfect work to destry hell / grave and death
Isaiah Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 28:14 ¶ Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:16 ¶ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
Isa 28:20 ¶ For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.
These are the scriptures to me that support JESUS COME TO DO THE PERFECT WILL OF GOD
and no man can stop this work of God though Jesus Christ
the begining was Christ and the end as well
Quote from: eaglesway on September 26, 2013, 04:58:33 AM
I get that Tom. However, the word "believers" is a fuzzy thing sometimes. James said, "You believe that God is one? The devils believe as well and tremble".
The idea being(as I see it)- that recognizing Jesus for who He is, and declaring that (Lord, Lord!) is not necessarily the same as bowing the knee and confessing(from a rejoicing converted heart) His Lordship. The idea that aionian kolassis has no bearing on individuals is, in my opinion, contradictory to the words of Jesus(Mat 7 Mat 25) and Paul(Roman 1 and 2).
In fact, Jesus concentrated on individuals and spoke t people as individuals and warned us as individuals.
Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.
Many people Jesus spoke of had done works IN HIS NAME. They would not even fit in a category of nations that did or did not succor Israel because their approaval or disapproval was based on their individual works(in that their works revealed their hearts).
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink..... depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
I was naked and you clothed me.....enter into the joy of your Lord
So, as I said before.... I just dont see the scriptures supporting a view that their is no kolassis for individuals past the Great White Throne, or that everyone will be converted/reconciled at the Great White Throne.
Now- I am not saying I have all the truth, I may well be wrong, but I would like to see an answer for the scriptures I post -from the scriptures, rather than platitudes, anecdotes and commentary excerpts- because, as I said before, I think it is a wonderful sentiment and I would wish it were true, but it don't line up for me. :o)
Those who die as unbelievers will be judged before the great white throne and cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. So I have a hard time seeing how they can be chastened while they're dead since the dead aren't conscious of anything.
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
But it makes sense to me that the nations who are alive 1000 years before this will be chastened for not being good to Israel.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I'm somewhat of a broken record.. (am I dating myself using "record"? how about broken c.d.! :laughing7: )
If the Spring Holy Days prophesied the 1st advent of Jesus, and were fulfilled by Him ~ Passover, Un-leavened Bread, Sabbath (regular weekly also of that Holy Week) and Firstfruit - when the waving of a single sheaf of wheat was meant to signify the whole harvest, all wheat..
Then, imo, it stands to reason that the Autumn Holy Days of ~ Trumpets (10 days later) Day of Atonement and (finally, five days later) Tabernacles prophecy the L-o-n-g Second Advent of Jesus, beginning with His return (1st peak/major event) and concluding/resulting in "Tabernacles" (last peak/major) when "God Himself will now Tabernacle with man".
It's my opinion, we need to look at the Biblical Day of Atonement for what is the in between 2nd peak/major event of the long 2nd advent, before Tabernacles-when "aLL things are made new" and "death is thrown into the LOF"... Leviticus 23:26-32 and Strong's Hebrew #3722a
Thus becoming for all, also, the "Passover" the "Un-leavened Bread" and the "Firstfruits"
I think too the function of the priests may give 'clues' as to what it will mean for the elect to be "priests of Him"
Why should Atonement be for some and not for all? Mercy for only some, punishment for others?
Imo, not logical. And not according to His nature and character..
Imo, it is atonement and mercy for all, and there are two classes (1st and 2nd resurrection) only for drama's sake, you cannot have a drama, narrative, mystery play, truth proving drama, with only one character in the 'play'/drama. But the total drama is writing His law, and the knowing of good from evil / life from nonlife, on "every" heart, mind and psyche "in heaven and earth" and also as to what could've happened to any one of us and all of us, actually, but didn't because He is 100% GOOD and 100% GOD / ABLE.
I understand that these are theories and discussion, so I dont want to engage in a debate about the topic, but I believe a study of the word for "nations" reveals at least a strong indication that it means "peoples" as the the general masses of people through out time, and I believe- as I said before, and based on the scriptures I presented, that God judges the "peoples" as individuals by the secrets of their hearts and by their works-as the works that testify to their faith and faithfulness before Him as the One in whom all people "live and breathe and have their beings". In my opinion the nations are judged in time, through the ages and the generations of their existence as He has appointed the times and boundaries of all men in order that they might seek for Him.
Acts 17:
22 And Paul, having stood in the midst of the Areopagus, said, `Men, Athenians, in all things I perceive you as over-religious;
23 for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.
24 `God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell,
25 neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings --
27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us,
28 for in Him we live, and move, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring.
29 `Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man;
30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform,
31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.' YLT
We have different perspectives, brother, but the important thing is we agree on the truth that God is the savior of all mankind.
Quote from: Tom on September 27, 2013, 03:02:42 AM
We have different perspectives, brother, but the important thing is we agree on the truth that God is the savior of all mankind.
Aaaaamen :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on September 26, 2013, 05:20:12 PMI think many are not sure of the 1000 year reign
Peter touched on the ignorance of so many and not wanting to leave those who believe in the dark / ignorance and stated , 2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now,
Yeah it's all confusing. The 1000 year reign obviously is the Kingdom.
Jesus said the kingdom is near; which mean right now right here in ancient Jewish thought. That seems to align with: John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world;
now the prince of this world will be driven out.
by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto
fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Quote2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
It does NOT say ungodly men are burned up forever but the works are!!
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Those works may very well be false doctrines because that are likely the elements mentioned. (elements was a term/concept that was very often used in Greek philosphy)
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise,
look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. QuoteGod it is a Day /1000 year and we know God only created 7 days
and consider the children of the DAY /Light are those shining by the Knowledge of God though Jesus Christ .
Also consider that according to some calculations we near the 6000th year from Adam. Then Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, will be Lord of the 7th day = 1000 year Sabbath day.
QuoteI find only 2 places kolassis is used in the bible
Mat 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
but what about the new heavens and earth for those made rightous in Jesus Christ and those works of the old heavens and earth are burned up in the DAY OF GOD
Day of God = Atonement day = Yom Kippur
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+16&version=NIV
Sins got carried away into the wilderness by the scapegoat. It's my belief Jesus was baptized on that day. The whole meaning of the feast was removing sin. Yeah, obviously that can be seen as getting rid of billions of people....
Quote from: eaglesway on September 27, 2013, 01:53:49 AM
I understand that these are theories and discussion, so I dont want to engage in a debate about the topic, but I believe a study of the word for "nations" reveals at least a strong indication that it means "peoples" as the the general masses of people through out time, and I believe- as I said before, and based on the scriptures I presented, that God judges the "peoples" as individuals by the secrets of their hearts and by their works-as the works that testify to their faith and faithfulness before Him
Maybe things become easier and/or different views get aligned if looking at it in a slightly different way...
For me LoF is the Fiery Law. Whole nations get immersed in that lake of law. But obviously nations are nothing more than a collection of billions of individuals.
They are all in the same law/lake but that doesn't mean they all get the same punishment/correction out of it. Just compare it to the law of the country you live in. It's the same for everyone, but still some end up in jail for decades while others just get a small fine.
Same story about Jesus ruling the nations with an iron rod. That rod won't be used at all for individuals that long ago have submitted to Him. But that very same rod, which in a way represents the law (=fire) will be used to hit the enemies very hard.
I hope the above makes some sense to someone :iagree: