Faith, works and grace

[Tom]

Thanks Tom.  In the meantime, I was typing this.  (Your name's in it.  :).

First of all John, I agree with a lot of what you say here,So let me see if I'm anywhere close to understanding your view on this, IMO, quite complicated subject

I'm gonna go study on this, because I believe it's "believe and confess the Lord Jesus", and "there's no other name", and "I am the way..no one comes through the Father but by Me".  But I'll admit, Romans 2 fits in there somewhere.  I just believe it and all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.

Well John, after sleeping on this, I recall a conversation you and I had where we found some agreement/understanding about Romans 2.  That even though good works cannot save/redeem/give anyone the spiritual new birth resultant of bowing and confessing Jesus when they're drawn and given faith to do so, that it has to do with "few stripes/many stripes".  Which again brings up the whole judgment aspect, i.e., who gets what...and that's up to God.  He knows.            Related questions then might be;   what's the [general] difference between judgment of unbelievers and believers (Tom?), and what are the benefits of the Good News now in this age, and having been called into the ecclesia vs. living for the devil as one's father?   A thought that occurs - it's as God wills.  According to His plan.  And He knows why some are used one way and one another.   Yet we are told to share the Good News, and Paul said "be reconciled to God", and the jailer had a desparate need to be saved;  "gentleman, what must I do to be saved"...           As I've thought about all this, I do know the main focus needs to be on HIM.  Blessings.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil022.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement006.html

This is a short explanation about "the benefits" because I have to tend to my handicapped sister now.

I would say "the benefits of the Good News now in this age, and having been called into the ecclesia" are the fruit of the spirit.   

"Now the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control" (Galatians 5:22,23)

It is a great benefit to have an expectation of immortality and to know God "is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11) to save "all mankind" (1 Timothy 4:10) and "reconcile all" (Colossians 1:20). This is especially comforting to those of us who have been taught that some of our loved ones will be tortured in fire forever.

[jabcat]

many with a good conscience and kind heart, etc., will be more ready and in a closer position of acknowleding Him as Savior..  Not that their works has "earned" them a "pass" (given them spiritual new birth, i.e., passed from death unto life) but they're "rewarded" ("excused") for following an "inner voice", in that faith and belief for them is more easily attained?   EDIT/ADDITION [few stripes/many stripes?  But then why would a reborn believer, raised to life, seated in the heavenlies with Christ receive any stripes?  Are we sure Jesus' words about rewards, works, and stripes didn't at least have something specifically   to do with the end of that age of LAW (that judgment of Gehenna), since all those words were spoken to Jews prior to the cross??  Or maybe "in that day" really did mean in that Day, i.e., the consummation) - or maybe both.     :Chinscratch: 

.. all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.

Tom, I'm quoting this from my earlier post, because I'm wondering if you'd know what Mr. Knoch's take on that might be, in your own straightforward language/way of expressing it, that you may have previously gleaned?  (or any other comments/insights, of course, from anyone).  I should have gone and looked at the context of those verses, but maybe I can later.  I"ve pretty much always thought it had to do with the final judgment day.  Just exploring and looking for possible connections and/or divisions.  Thanks.

[Tom]

many with a good conscience and kind heart, etc., will be more ready and in a closer position of acknowleding Him as Savior..  Not that their works has "earned" them a "pass" (given them spiritual new birth, i.e., passed from death unto life) but they're "rewarded" ("excused") for following an "inner voice", in that faith and belief for them is more easily attained?   EDIT/ADDITION [few stripes/many stripes?  But then why would a reborn believer, raised to life, seated in the heavenlies with Christ receive any stripes?  Are we sure Jesus' words about rewards, works, and stripes didn't at least have something specifically   to do with the end of that age of LAW (that judgment of Gehenna), since all those words were spoken to Jews prior to the cross??  Or maybe "in that day" really did mean in that Day, i.e., the consummation) - or maybe both.     :Chinscratch: 

.. all the other scriptures about belief in Jesus and grace not works etc. must reconcile.

Tom, I'm quoting this from my earlier post, because I'm wondering if you'd know what Mr. Knoch's take on that might be, in your own straightforward language/way of expressing it, that you may have previously gleaned?  (or any other comments/insights, of course, from anyone).  I should have gone and looked at the context of those verses, but maybe I can later.  I"ve pretty much always thought it had to do with the final judgment day.  Just exploring and looking for possible connections and/or divisions.  Thanks.

"47 Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes.
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him." (Luke 12:47,48)

"47 All God's judgments are tempered by attending circumstances. He does not require His creatures to live up to light which they do not have. Yet His judgments increase in severity according to the privileges enjoyed. Thus it is that Israel is subject to the most awful of the inflictions of the end time. How thankful we should be that His grace not only bestows transcendent privilege but brings immunity from judgment as well!" (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 116)

[jabcat]

Hmmm..interesting.  I want to go to the Concordant site later and read more on that.  Thanks!

[eaglesway]

  Quote, James: John, you said believing that someone goes to "hell" (or even kolasin aionian, temporary corrective discipline) on the day of judgment is an ET concept and error.  You also said someone saved (spiritually reborn - my interpretation) in this life has passed from life unto death.  So do you (or anyone) believe then there is no correction at all for those folks?  (yet as far as I know, all who live in this flesh of clay still carry sin with them).  I've seen that view, that basically death and the loss of the literal flesh = "judgment over, salvation accomplished".  I don't believe y[ou believe that John, but how do you see it?      Do you/we/anyone think it's just quickly burned away/falls away without consequence?

Actually what I said, or at least what I was trying to say(I may not hav been cllear), is that I think it is an error when people teach that everyone who goes before the great white throne will go into hell/lake of fire/kolassis etc.  As I read it Romans two teaches that some will be excused by their conscience and some will be accused- and that the secrets of their hearts (laid open before Jesus Christ) will be the criteria.

Quote, John:However, one of the foundations of ET doctrine is that if you are not saved now you will go to hell on "the Day". I think this is an error- whether it is held by ET or UR believers.
Those who are saved(delivered) now hav passed from death unto life.
Everyone else will be judged in the Day, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their conscience will either excuse them or accuse them on the DAY God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ."

I believe that there WILL be myriads of people who will face kolassis(corrective discipline) at the Great Whte Throne. Sort of like the sheep and goats- some to the left some to the right, etc.

What is taught all too often- again, IMO, is that if you dont receive Jesus here it is ALWAYS because of rebellion. I believe Romans 1 & 2 presents a different view. There will be many who stand before Him from this age having never heard the formal gospel. There will be many who stand before Him from the previous ages, having never heard the law. There, for instance be many children who stand before Him having never reached the age of decision, many adults who never heard the gospel in a form we could stand behind as believers in UR(the only true gospel).

As I said in my previous post- the parable of the good samaritan is, imo, the clearest teaching Jesus gives on how God judges. To infer that a Samaritan man(idolatrous and worse than a heathen to the Jews) could be justified before God while a Pharisee or a Levite would not- was HUGE insult to the teachers of Jesus day, the priesthood of the nation Israel. He was teaching that knowledge is NOT the key to believing, love and kindness are.

If our hearts are like tuning forks, they vibrate in harmony with YHWH and Messiah- or they do not.

All I am saying is that for me, the scriptures teach in these passages that God sees Jesus in us in a different way than we do. God looks on the heart- man looks on the outward appearance. For me, this is not talking about just dress and conduct- but rather WORDS VERSUS BEING. WHAT WE KNOW VERSUS WHO WE ARE. I see Jesus portraying this truth in many parables.

Also I am saying, re: the Day, some will rejoice at His appearing who never knew in their heads before that Day- but knew Him in their hearts- and expressed it in their love for their fellow man, even tho they were ignorant.

I also agree that there are many applications for the word "saved"- in fact that was my point :o)

We are saved NOW. Some will be saved THEN when they stand before Him. Others will be saved after kolassis, experiencing what Jesus called "aish olam"(hebrew) or "aionian pur"(greek) and that we(incorrectly in my opinion) call age-during fire. EVERYKNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER before they "enter in" to full union,the "anakephalaiomai"(summing up of all things in Christ).............................. the all in all.

I may hav a difficult time keeping up with this thread rite now, but I will do the best I can. I am only offering my opinions on what I read in the scriptures.

[redhotmagma]

Again EW  :thumbsup:

That very well sums up my thoughts.

[jabcat]

Thanks John.  I'm real close to you on most of this, well said.  God used your thoughts to help clarify some things for me that I had been thinking about.   :HeartThrob:  The following is still me thinking out loud, realizing some things, etc..

I consider the following a bit differently;

Also I am saying, re: the Day, some will rejoice at His appearing who never knew in their heads before that Day- but knew Him in their hearts- and expressed it in their love for their fellow man, even tho they were ignorant.

I don't believe we know Him, unless and until we know Him in saving faith that He provides, i.e., "call on the name", "believe in Jesus, and how can they believe unless someone TELLS them..", etc. (otherwise, wouldn't we just tell people to be nice - or nothing at all, rather than Paul's declaration, "be you reconciled to God  [Q. "what MUST I do to be saved?"    The Holy Spirit through Paul's Answer - "Believe on Jesus"].  Many people died and many are still dying for proclaiming that Good News.  They die for the NAME, not for being kind and loving.)      So I believe nice people with a loving disposition and clean conscience, can still be lost and in need of the Savior.  YET - it indeed was helpful and I"m much in agreement with the way you put the rest of your thoughts - and how you really kind of summarized a lot of the issue - on the conscience issue (Rom. 2) and how that some will be much closer to rejoicing at His appearing and more readily to ("immediately!") recognize and accept Him as Lord and Savior, while others will need to have corrective discipline - depending on the condition of their/our heart, conscience, etc.  So to me, really summing up all your comments, and a really good and vital "icing on the cake" IMO, is the following;

We are saved NOW. Some will be saved THEN when they stand before Him. Others will be saved after kolassis, experiencing what Jesus called "aish olam"(hebrew) or "aionian pur"(greek) and that we(incorrectly in my opinion) call age-during fire. EVERYKNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER before they "enter in" to full union,the "anakephalaiomai"(summing up of all things in Christ).............................. the all in all.

Thank you for that.  I believe that's VERY important, and often left out in these type discussions and issues - when we can start talking and thinking about all types of other important things, i.e., love, conscience, works, etc. - that it's still only through the gift of faith and grace, some given it now, others later - and that everything is leading up to, as you said in caps :)  :thumbsup:  EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER"..   Amen, and thanks John for an excellent post that the Spirit used to minister to me.  Blessings.

[JulieTang84]

I have always felt that if Jesus was to suddenly appear and walk this earth dressed in modern garb, most would not even stop and bid him the time of day. I think Paul gives credence to this as there seems to be a falling away; however, in many ways there is a "coming together" also.


I am thinking that ONLY those with spiritual eyes opened by Father will "see" the Christ for who he is, in what ever form he manifests. But then there are those that have preto been blinded and unable to see, what of them?


Surely, Father will remove the blinders from their eyes and the sudden rush of light, truth, peace and most of all LOVE  :HeartThrob:  will give no reason for anyone to not know and fully understand who and what Jesus the Christ is.


As such, this might well be an opening of the heart allowing Christ to be seen in Spirit. Now for the $69 question. Could anyone turn from this or would they follow Jesus as a young child holds the hand of a big brother as he leads the way? I ask this because, if Christ in all his Glory with trumpets sounding and Angels singing isn't enough then surely puny man with a bucket of sin is more powerful than Christ with the love of Father.


Just Julie thinking aloud again. :HeartThrob:


Love, Julie

[sheila]

Jab....wht aboutthose ofwhom it is written...they are a law unto themselves.....if you apply that

  unto the two royal laws.......surely itis God in them causing then towill anddoHisgoodpleasure?


     or Jonadab...that obeyed theirfather'scommand..to dwell in tents and not drink wine....

andGod used those ofthegentile nations to rebuke His own covenant people. Saying,'Iwill always

have him stand before me[Jonadab] In other words...Fathersays...."it's pretty bad when

the other nations behave better then my people."  He's not ahypocrite..and He does not

judge unjustly.  Jesus waas amazed at thefaithexhibited by the people of the nations..but

distressed of the lack of faith in the jews.

   
  What if nice loving kind people want nothing to do with those who blasphemously

andhypocritically and self-righteously proclaim to represent the Christ onearth?

   I sought Him in allthechurches..from a very young age...anddid NOT find Himthere.......

   how does any man know those who are hiddenin Christ? the world does notknow Him...

many have come in Hisname..saying...'Iam the Christ" but they are liars..robbers andtheives

  Beleive and hear Him..beleive the spirit of Elijah..and make straight paths for your feet.....

   Behold the Lambof Godwho takes away the sinofthe world.  It isfinished! the salvationof

  allmen..the faith in Him accomplishing that[beleif] the hope that is sure[though you do not behold

it as yet with your eyes] andthe love for God and all men. Compels us to walk and live  in

that divine pronouncement.

    the gates of the Holy city are never closed....'Come take life's water free"  The free gift oflife

is given to all that have perished in Adam.

  John 8   the validity ofJesus testimony..   The Pharisee's challenged that Jesus testimony was not

valid  Hetoldthem..v 15 you judge byhumanstandards...I pass judgement on no-one...

  Jesus said"I am one who testifies for myself..my other wittness is the father who sent me"

[Tom]

I met some good folks in churches, but I never found a church with the correct doctrine. We are blessed to have the inspired written word of God for the correct doctrine. I believe God is just, and I do not believe a just God would torture anybody in fire forever. I believe some are chosen from before the disruption of the world to have faith and be saved for eonian life, and some are chosen to come to God through Christ by judgment before the great white throne. I believe all those who died not believing in Christ will be judged there and will then experience the second death. Their fate is not to be tortured alive in fire forever because they will be dead meaning they will not be conscious of any sensation.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

There is debate about whether the lake of fire is literal or figurative. I personally think it is literal, but the point is that it is called "the second death-the lake of fire" because those that are cast into it will be dead until they are vivified at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished. Death is like sleep. Scripture says the dead are reposing. So, even though those who die as unbelievers will not have eonian life, they will not be suffering, and they will eventually be immortalized.

God is merciful even to unbelievers because it is only according to God's will that some have not been given faith.

"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

"faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed" (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith from the Greek "pistis" literally means "belief."

How could a just God hold those who have not been given faith responsible for not having it and then torture them in fire forever because of that?

"God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day." (Romans 11:8)

That is why those who die as unbelievers will simply be reposing during "the eon of the eons." The living God of Hebrew and Greek scripture is merciful and wise not vindictive and sadistic as the god of church doctrine.

"The dais" where we will be requited is not "the great white throne" where unbelievers are judged. 

"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)

"10 The dais, or raised platform from which games were judged and awards given, must not be confused with a judicial bench. The quality of our acts may determine the award to which we are entitled, but the question of condemnation is entirely foreign to such a tribunal. We are absolutely absolved from all condemnation, but we are eligible to an award for meritorious service. These awards will be distributed at the dais of Christ, according to our acts in "the" body, that is, our present soulish bodies." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 270)

But our "works" is not what "save" us. In grace, through faith, are we saved (Ephesians 2:8,9). Our "works" are our acts of love that are the result of the inspiration of God. I believe God even inspires unbelievers to love. They have just not been given faith to believe God is love, and that is according to God's will.

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)

I know this thread is titled "Faith, works, and grace," but I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works. 


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[eaglesway]

Thanks John.  I'm real close to you on most of this, well said.  God used your thoughts to help clarify some things for me that I had been thinking about.   :HeartThrob:  The following is still me thinking out loud, realizing some things, etc..

I consider the following a bit differently;

Also I am saying, re: the Day, some will rejoice at His appearing who never knew in their heads before that Day- but knew Him in their hearts- and expressed it in their love for their fellow man, even tho they were ignorant.

I don't believe we know Him, unless and until we know Him in saving faith that He provides, i.e., "call on the name", "believe in Jesus, and how can they believe unless someone TELLS them..", etc. (otherwise, wouldn't we just tell people to be nice - or nothing at all, rather than Paul's declaration, "be you reconciled to God  [Q. "what MUST I do to be saved?"    The Holy Spirit through Paul's Answer - "Believe on Jesus"].  Many people died and many are still dying for proclaiming that Good News.  They die for the NAME, not for being kind and loving.)      So I believe nice people with a loving disposition and clean conscience, can still be lost and in need of the Savior.  YET - it indeed was helpful and I"m much in agreement with the way you put the rest of your thoughts - and how you really kind of summarized a lot of the issue - on the conscience issue (Rom. 2) and how that some will be much closer to rejoicing at His appearing and more readily to ("immediately!") recognize and accept Him as Lord and Savior, while others will need to have corrective discipline - depending on the condition of their/our heart, conscience, etc.  So to me, really summing up all your comments, and a really good and vital "icing on the cake" IMO, is the following;

We are saved NOW. Some will be saved THEN when they stand before Him. Others will be saved after kolassis, experiencing what Jesus called "aish olam"(hebrew) or "aionian pur"(greek) and that we(incorrectly in my opinion) call age-during fire. EVERYKNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER before they "enter in" to full union,the "anakephalaiomai"(summing up of all things in Christ).............................. the all in all.

Thank you for that.  I believe that's VERY important, and often left out in these type discussions and issues - when we can start talking and thinking about all types of other important things, i.e., love, conscience, works, etc. - that it's still only through the gift of faith and grace, some given it now, others later - and that everything is leading up to, as you said in caps :)  :thumbsup:  EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER"..   Amen, and thanks John for an excellent post that the Spirit used to minister to me.  Blessings.

Yes, I see you are saying there James, and I think it goes partially to our defintion of what saved is. When I say that some people know him in their hearts a couple of good examples are:

Moses, when he stood on holy ground, said- "Who shall I say sent me". The answer was, "I am that I am" from which we get YHWH. Moses saw Him and knew Him but wanted to know the name.

In another place, the Psalmist says says- "You have glorified your word above all your name". Ps 138:2

When Moses saw Him he acknowledged Him and asked for His name.

My personal belief is that no one comes into the body of Christ without the name. "Be ye saved from this perverse generation." Acts 2 -Saved into a new generation(the last/second Adam-behold I make all things new)

However, along the lines of the Hebrew belief of "righteous goyim"- a concept some of the rabbis taught of Gentiles who obeyed the 7 Noahide laws, were friends to Israel, etc(they believed in the resurrection of the righteous gentiles)....I believe that when such peopl, who are described in Romans 1 and 2 and the parable of the Good Samaritan- stand before Him on the Day they will rejoice to see HIM. This is(seeing Him and rejoicing) salvation and it is declared in Philippians 2:10- "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

So,

I am not saying anyone will get saved by good works or by love without Jesus. I am saying anyone who truly walked in love in this life, and acted accordingly, having never heard the gospel, or having been among the many millions or even billions who lived before the gospel- WILL REJOICE TO SEE HIM IN THE DAY.


They will bow the knee and confess His Lordship joyfully and "enter in" to the joy of their Lord(salvation/restoration/aionian life). Jesus prayed that we be "one"(in His love) that our joy may be full. This joy is the anakepholaomai"(EPh 1:10)- the "gathering together of all things into one" in Christ- the ultimate destiny of every creature in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

Every creature will bow before the name that is named above every name- each in his own order.

Many, on that Day, who knew the name, but did not know Him in their hearts(as attested by their works Matthew 7:21-23) will pass through the fire/light of His penetrating gaze before they bow the knee(Mt 25)

As Jesus taught:

25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

[jabcat]

John, I see more what you're saying too, and it's definitely been helpful and used of the Lord.  Thank you.

Jab....wht aboutthose ofwhom it is written...they are a law unto themselves.....if you apply that

  unto the two royal laws.......surely itis God in them causing then towill anddoHisgoodpleasure?   

Hi sheila.  Yes, I agree with you on this, in that, God can use anyone and anything, and do whatever He wishes of such.  I often identify with the donkey He had talk.  And yet

My personal belief is that no one comes into the body of Christ without the name. "Be ye saved from this perverse generation." Acts 2 -Saved into a new generation(the last/second Adam-behold I make all things new)

... they will rejoice to see HIM. This is(seeing Him and rejoicing) salvation and it is declared in Philippians 2:10- "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

So,

I am not saying anyone will get saved by good works or by love without Jesus. I am saying anyone who truly walked in love in this life, and acted accordingly, having never heard the gospel, or having been among the many millions or even billions who lived before the gospel- WILL REJOICE TO SEE HIM IN THE DAY.


They will bow the knee and confess His Lordship joyfully and "enter in" to the joy of their Lord(salvation/restoration/aionian life).

is very much how I understand it too.  Also

But our "works" is not what "save" us. In grace, through faith, are we saved (Ephesians 2:8,9). Our "works" are our acts of love that are the result of the inspiration of God. I believe God even inspires unbelievers to love. They have just not been given faith to believe God is love, and that is according to God's will.

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)

I know this thread is titled "Faith, works, and grace," but I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.

So as I understand, "just" [just is a dumb description, but for lack of a better word] because God chooses to use someone, speak through them, bless them, cause His light to shine on them, doesn't mean they are as yet spiritually reborn through being given faith to believe on the Son ("who are you, Lord?".. "I Am He...").      Yet, those who haven't heard and have lived according to a good conscience, etc.  as noted above and elsewhere in the discussion, I personally believe  will "immediately" recognize Who He Is when He reveals His Person and Name to them, and they will be given immediate faith to believe and embrace Him as Lord and Savior.  I believe it's the same with the mentally ill, the mentally infirm, etc...they have nothing to be "corrected" of, other than be delivered of the clothing of flesh and be given faith to see Him as He is, and believe and embrace Him with their new mind and "heart".

As far as the looking for Him in various churches - I think that's such a varied and individual thing, it would be hard to specifically address.  I don't know what "churches" you attended.  I don't know if 1 person there knew Him, or if 100 did, according to the gift of saving faith.  But generally, I certainly do think God exists in many of those groups and individuals (though I believe some are indeed apostate and He has left them/spewed them out of His mouth - until the regeneration of all things).  Another issue may be, that's not where He wanted you to "find" Him.  Because basically, I truly believe He finds us - when it's His timing and within the workings of His will.  So maybe He was beginning to draw you, and was only waiting in a certain time and certain place (literally and figuratively) to truly reveal Himself to you, and have you come into the family?  All of that is general suppositions, suggestions.  You'll know what is the truth of it.

And to me, this

 

I am thinking that ONLY those with spiritual eyes opened by Father will "see" the Christ for who he is, in what ever form he manifests. But then there are those that have preto been blinded and unable to see, what of them?


Surely, Father will remove the blinders from their eyes and the sudden rush of light, truth, peace and most of all LOVE  :HeartThrob:  will give no reason for anyone to not know and fully understand who and what Jesus the Christ is.

ties into all the above. 

Good discussion, thanks and blessings.  Those are some of my understandings, at this point, as the Lord continues to help me "work through it";  and according to an old song I thought of today;   "as I sit and learn at Jesus' feet, I am free yes free indeed.  It is joy unspeakable and full of glory, oh the half has never yet been told".     

Blessings, James.

[Tom]

John, I see more what you're saying too, and it's definitely been helpful and used of the Lord.  Thank you.

Jab....wht aboutthose ofwhom it is written...they are a law unto themselves.....if you apply that

  unto the two royal laws.......surely itis God in them causing then towill anddoHisgoodpleasure?   

Hi sheila.  Yes, I agree with you on this, in that, God can use anyone and anything, and do whatever He wishes of such.  I often identify with the donkey He had talk.  And yet

My personal belief is that no one comes into the body of Christ without the name. "Be ye saved from this perverse generation." Acts 2 -Saved into a new generation(the last/second Adam-behold I make all things new)

... they will rejoice to see HIM. This is(seeing Him and rejoicing) salvation and it is declared in Philippians 2:10- "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

So,

I am not saying anyone will get saved by good works or by love without Jesus. I am saying anyone who truly walked in love in this life, and acted accordingly, having never heard the gospel, or having been among the many millions or even billions who lived before the gospel- WILL REJOICE TO SEE HIM IN THE DAY.


They will bow the knee and confess His Lordship joyfully and "enter in" to the joy of their Lord(salvation/restoration/aionian life).

is very much how I understand it too.  Also

But our "works" is not what "save" us. In grace, through faith, are we saved (Ephesians 2:8,9). Our "works" are our acts of love that are the result of the inspiration of God. I believe God even inspires unbelievers to love. They have just not been given faith to believe God is love, and that is according to God's will.

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)

I know this thread is titled "Faith, works, and grace," but I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.

So as I understand, "just" [just is a dumb description, but for lack of a better word] because God chooses to use someone, speak through them, bless them, cause His light to shine on them, doesn't mean they are as yet spiritually reborn through being given faith to believe on the Son ("who are you, Lord?".. "I Am He...").      Yet, those who haven't heard and have lived according to a good conscience, etc.  as noted above and elsewhere in the discussion, I personally believe  will "immediately" recognize Who He Is when He reveals His Person and Name to them, and they will be given immediate faith to believe and embrace Him as Lord and Savior.  I believe it's the same with the mentally ill, the mentally infirm, etc...they have nothing to be "corrected" of, other than be delivered of the clothing of flesh and be given faith to see Him as He is, and believe and embrace Him with their new mind and "heart".

As far as the looking for Him in various churches - I think that's such a varied and individual thing, it would be hard to specifically address.  I don't know what "churches" you attended.  I don't know if 1 person there knew Him, or if 100 did, according to the gift of saving faith.  But generally, I certainly do think God exists in many of those groups and individuals (though I believe some are indeed apostate and He has left them/spewed them out of His mouth - until the regeneration of all things).  Another issue may be, that's not where He wanted you to "find" Him.  Because basically, I truly believe He finds us - when it's His timing and within the workings of His will.  So maybe He was beginning to draw you, and was only waiting in a certain time and certain place (literally and figuratively) to truly reveal Himself to you, and have you come into the family?  All of that is general suppositions, suggestions.  You'll know what is the truth of it.

And to me, this

 

I am thinking that ONLY those with spiritual eyes opened by Father will "see" the Christ for who he is, in what ever form he manifests. But then there are those that have preto been blinded and unable to see, what of them?


Surely, Father will remove the blinders from their eyes and the sudden rush of light, truth, peace and most of all LOVE  :HeartThrob:  will give no reason for anyone to not know and fully understand who and what Jesus the Christ is.

ties into all the above. 

Good discussion, thanks and blessings.  Those are some of my understandings, at this point, as the Lord continues to help me "work through it";  and according to an old song I thought of today;   "as I sit and learn at Jesus' feet, I am free yes free indeed.  It is joy unspeakable and full of glory, oh the half has never yet been told".     

Blessings, James.

I think all will know they are in the presence of the Lord when they are judged before the great white throne, and that will make believers out of the unbelievers. So they too will come to God through Christ by sight rather than by faith, but, because they have not been chosen for eonian life, they will be reposing until the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and all mankind is vivified.

What I was saying about the "churches" was I met some good people who were believers and were loving brothers and sisters, but the doctrine of the churches was torture forever in fire for unbelievers. That's why I don't belong to a church anymore, and I don't believe the creeds established by Rome. I only believe the word of God.

[jabcat]

I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.

Amen

[jabcat]

I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.

Amen

To the believers/ecclesia in Ephesus;

Eph. 1:15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus..

Made Alive in Christ
2:1  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
2 ..when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves,
     it is the  gift  of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God's handiwork,   created    in Christ Jesus    to do good works,   which God prepared in advance for us to do.

[eaglesway]

I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.

Amen

I agree with this. Grace(unmerited favor) is like the rain falling in the just and the unjust. Only God knows who is which  :doh:

[jabcat]

I think the actual sequence of events is grace, faith, and works.

Amen

I agree with this. Grace(unmerited favor) is like the rain falling in the just and the unjust. Only God knows who is which  :doh:

Agreed.  He's in control of it, and knows who, what, and when.  :)  God's the Judge of each of us, and His judgments are righteous, just, and He is merciful. 

I figure if we share the truth in love that Jesus is the Savior we all need, the Holy Spirit draws who needs drawn, fills who needs filled, and reassures and comforts all who know Him.  All according to the counsel of His will.  I sure don't know what's in peoples' heart, and only God can change a heart.

I went looking for "His Spirit bears witness with our spirit", and found it in this passage;


Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ..the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
But if Christ is in you.. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
.. When we cry, 'Abba! Father!'  that very Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..

[JulieTang84]

I think all will know they are in the presence of the Lord when they are judged before the great white throne, and that will make believers out of the unbelievers. So they too will come to God through Christ by sight rather than by faith, but, because they have not been chosen for eonian life," they will be reposing until the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and all mankind is vivified.

What I was saying about the "churches" was I met some good people who were believers and were loving brothers and sisters, but the doctrine of the churches was torture forever in fire for unbelievers. That's why I don't belong to a church anymore, and I don't believe the creeds established by Rome. I only believe the word of God.

This is interesting Tom. I used to think that the multitude would stand in fear and dread before the great white throne. For some strange reason, I always saw myself standing before Father and telling him that I will gladly take all the punishment I deserve. Read Plenty!!!

But, as I have awakened spiritually, I see everyone standing before Father pleading Him for the CORRECTION that will remove forever the blackness of sin that shades the divine Light of the Christ in each and every person. Where once I saw dread, I now see cheering.

Father is everything you can imagine about PURE LOVE to the power of the infinity.

We just have no concept of what standing in Pure Light is, but it is going to be BEAUTIFUL!!!  :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

[Tom]

I think all will know they are in the presence of the Lord when they are judged before the great white throne, and that will make believers out of the unbelievers. So they too will come to God through Christ by sight rather than by faith, but, because they have not been chosen for eonian life," they will be reposing until the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and all mankind is vivified.

What I was saying about the "churches" was I met some good people who were believers and were loving brothers and sisters, but the doctrine of the churches was torture forever in fire for unbelievers. That's why I don't belong to a church anymore, and I don't believe the creeds established by Rome. I only believe the word of God.

This is interesting Tom. I used to think that the multitude would stand in fear and dread before the great white throne. For some strange reason, I always saw myself standing before Father and telling him that I will gladly take all the punishment I deserve. Read Plenty!!!

But, as I have awakened spiritually, I see everyone standing before Father pleading Him for the CORRECTION that will remove forever the blackness of sin that shades the divine Light of the Christ in each and every person. Where once I saw dread, I now see cheering.

Father is everything you can imagine about PURE LOVE to the power of the infinity.

We just have no concept of what standing in Pure Light is, but it is going to be BEAUTIFUL!!!  :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Love Julie

I think unbelievers who are judged before the great white throne will be humbled by their exposed sins, and they will be unable to deny Christ any longer because they will see him with their own eyes.

We believers are "justified gratuitously in His grace, through the deliverance which is in Christ Jesus" (Romans 3:24) and therefore will not be judged before the great white throne, but we will receive wages for our good work before the dais where our bad work will be burned up.

"If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14,15)

I have seen the light. It is not only "beautiful," but it is an experience of unconditional love and total peace.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil021.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil023.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html

[Tom]

"Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian" (2 Timothy 1:9)

[eaglesway]

While the sentiment around the view that everyone will be humbled and won by the love of God in Christ at the Great White Throne is commendable- and I could wish it were true- I dont think it is what the scriptures attest to- especially Jesus in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25, and John, in Revleation concerning the lake of fire. A further period of kolassis appear to be in store for the wicked according to what I read in Paul, the gospels, Jude, and others.  :2c:

[Tom]

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil027.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil028.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/evil029.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/JudgmentAndDeath.html

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Tom]

While the sentiment around the view that everyone will be humbled and won by the love of God in Christ at the Great White Throne is commendable- and I could wish it were true- I dont think it is what the scriptures attest to- especially Jesus in Matthew 7 and Matthew 25, and John, in Revleation concerning the lake of fire. A further period of kolassis appear to be in store for the wicked according to what I read in Paul, the gospels, Jude, and others.  :2c:

I said unbelievers would become "believers" before the "great white throne" because they will see the Lord with their own eyes, but they will then experience "the second death-the lake of fire." That involves the dead who died as unbelievers, and it happens 1000 years after the judgments of the nations of Matthew 25:31-46 which involves the "kolasin aionion" literally "chastening eonian."

"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (Matthew 25:46)

"46 Eonian chastening is here limited to the nations who will not succor the faithful of Israel in their time of sore distress. It has no bearing on the sins of individuals. The justice of fire eonian is disciplinary and corrective (cf Jude 7)." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament page 49)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/EonianFireAndJudging.html

[eaglesway]

I get that Tom. However, the word "believers" is a fuzzy thing sometimes. James said, "You believe that God is one? The devils believe as well and tremble".

The idea being(as I see it)- that recognizing Jesus for who He is, and declaring that (Lord, Lord!) is not necessarily the same as bowing the knee and confessing(from a rejoicing converted heart) His Lordship. The idea that aionian kolassis has no bearing on individuals is, in my opinion, contradictory to the words of Jesus(Mat 7 Mat 25) and Paul(Roman 1 and 2).

In fact, Jesus concentrated on individuals and spoke t people as individuals and warned us as individuals.

Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into gehenna.

Many people Jesus spoke of had done works IN HIS NAME. They would not even fit in a category of nations that did or did not succor Israel because their approaval or disapproval was based on their individual works(in that their works revealed their hearts).

I was thirsty and you gave me no drink..... depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I was naked and you clothed me.....enter into the joy of your Lord

So, as I said before.... I just dont see the scriptures supporting a view that their is no kolassis for individuals past the Great White Throne, or that everyone will be converted/reconciled at the Great White Throne.

Now- I am not saying I have all the truth, I may well be wrong, but I would like to see an answer for the scriptures I post -from the scriptures, rather than platitudes, anecdotes and commentary excerpts- because, as I said before, I think it is a wonderful sentiment and I would wish it were true, but it don't line up for me. :o)

[irenic-inkwell]

re:  the word "believers" is a fuzzy thing sometimes.

eaglesway, I agree and I have done some thinking and studying about this serious issue as there are as many different type of "believers" as there are denominations (including UR) but maybe a new thread should be started in the Word Studies section:  Believers

for now, consider Peter and Paul, both believed Jesus after the flesh:

Saul/Paul persecuted "believers" of Jesus,  being zealous for the things of God and Simon/Peter was enthralled with Jesus because of the things he heard Jesus say and saw what Jesus was able to do.

Paul had what many call the Damascus experience and Peter had the Pentecost experience. 

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are IN Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.