Can you explain?

[martincisneros]

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)
...as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages

Not too sure where they got this, unless they're saying that Proverbs 8 is talking about Jesus.

recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence,

This part gets dangerously close to being an allusion to the Essene doctrine of the two souls that each person is supposedly supposed to have, that some say that James is affirming in his book in talking about bitter water and sweet coming from the same source while affirming that these things ought not to be.  Lord Jesus doesn't have two natures any more than I do.  "Nature" implies what you are at your core both by the seed you came from and by what you've been nurtured into.  I know it says "without confusion...without division," but it still teeters on the Gnostic.  "But rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved..." still implies something that can be swayed by sin and that lacks in perfection.  I could argue the opposite of what I'm saying from this very passage because of the grayness in it that I'm uncomfortable with, that I don't believe that the Scriptures have.

even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us.

There are hints of this in the prophets about His pre-crucified glory because He was to be tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin.  Which means that temptation isn't a sin.  Took me years to notice that because of all of the preaching that I heard when I was a little kid that was sooo filled with condemnation that if you ever had anything to overcome then your very process of overcoming was somehow sinful with how warped what I heard preached was.  However, I find nothing of this "begotten before the ages" and "two natures" in the teachings of my Lord Jesus, and neither do I find hints of "two natures" in Christ's risen glory through the Words of either Jesus or the Apostles and Prophets, unless you want to say that 1John 4:17 points to His two natures in His post resurrection state.  Then and then alone, hanging on that one verse, I might be able to buy it for reasons too controversial to get into on these boards, and I mean that advisedly.  Some of it has to do with the fact that we're one Body with Christ and that in a certain sense He's still overcoming through us.  Other subjects get too long-winded for my tastes these days.  I hate not being able to talk face to face!

[Molly]

(S #136) Adonai (masc., used exclusively of God)

(S # 113) Adon (masc., carries nuances of authority rather than ownership) frequently used with (S #3068) IEUE, eg., Ex 34:23; Jos 3:13; Isa 1:24

BOTH are used of God!

Exodus 34

23Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.

LORD=Adon



Jos 3:13

13And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the LORD, the LORD of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap.

LORD=Adon



Isa 1:24

24Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

LORD=Adon



Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Lord=Adon



Psalm 99:5
Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.

LORD=Y'hovah

[Craig]

Sometimes I've thought Craig was nit picking just a bit, but I have to agree on this one.  And wasn't the conversation for at least the last few posts about whether or not He was God Himself or just Son of God?  (I was personally concluding that He was and is both, as well as the last Adam.) Or did I completely misunderstand you, and were you attempting [to clarify] an Arian argument??  Or did the conversation go beyond that point already and I honestly missed the transition???  My attention span does that sometimes if I'm not careful.  And where I'm at, it's sneaking towards 1am.

When it comes to apologetics, there is no such thing as nitpicking ;). Words hold meanings, and the ways words are assembled to make a sentence hold pretense, proposition, and presupposition.

You are also not wrong about the strange transition that just happened. I can only gather that seeing that his particular branch of reasoning was quickly losing strength, he jumped to a multiplicity of God dilemma in a pre-existant, post-resurrection Jesus to confuse the issue.

[martincisneros]

I hold the "traditional" view of the Nicene Creed of 325.

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; he suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost.  And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not, or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion--all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.

I'm more comfortable with this creed as well.  The chalcedon creed was written too soon, or too within the season of when the Church started majorly apostacizing with ET and other issues.  Perhaps that's a small part of the grayness that I see in it, but I feel the brightest light from the Nicene Creed.  At the end of the day, it's still largely about what we get from our own anointings as well as from the Scriptures.

[Craig]

The options should be:

1. A Man
2. God
3. Fully God and Fully Man.

Remove the presupposition, since adding "only" and "still" is to manipulate the options to fit your presupposition rather than an honest poll.

He is 1, 2 and 3.

Sometimes I've thought Craig was nit picking just a bit, but I have to agree on this one.  And wasn't the conversation for at least the last few posts about whether or not He was God Himself or just Son of God?  (I was personally concluding that He was and is both, as well as the last Adam.) Or did I completely misunderstand you, and were you attempting [to clarify] an Arian argument??  Or did the conversation go beyond that point already and I honestly missed the transition???  My attention span does that sometimes if I'm not careful.  And where I'm at, it's sneaking towards 1am.

What I understand is God became human (Adam man, homo sapien), died, raised from dead as NEW man (Christ the Lord from heaven, homo novae) something God already, and is entering into Divinity, something to be finished when God becomes all in all; and that He is including us, "...members of His body, bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh," (Eph 5) something to be also finished when God is all in all.

:thumbsup:

This is a kind of over simplification.

Yep.

[reFORMer]

Another relevant though distinct issue is the Spirit of God.  I believe he/she/it is God and an emanation of God similar to Jesus being God and an emanation of God:  God manifests as Spirit substance and God manifests as physical substance Jesus.

When this discussion arose previously I put the following in a post and everybody acted as if it wasn't there.  While easily a seperate thread, it bears relevance on this thread here too...


John 17...
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Not only is Jesus the Father in human expression, the Spirit Who is God answers to the name Jesus.  What's more, the name of God is on us.  Think about that please.  That we are the flesh of God in the earth (Eph 5:30), "bone of His bone," is why the exact words calling God "trinity, triune, or three-in-one" are missing from the Holy Scriptures.  It isn't because of less, but more as God.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

John 10...
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High (El-Elyon).

1Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Not to pursue it exhaustively, but to go one step beyond...
Not just as a destiny, "that God may be all in all;" (1 Cor 15:28) but, as a present reality, "The All, and in all is Christ." (Col 3:11) We are members of "The All."  We sit as Him on the Great White Throne.

---James Rohde

[Molly]

The options should be:

1. A Man
2. God
3. Fully God and Fully Man.

Remove the presupposition, since adding "only" and "still" is to manipulate the options to fit your presupposition rather than an honest poll.

He is 1, 2 and 3.

Sometimes I've thought Craig was nit picking just a bit, but I have to agree on this one.  And wasn't the conversation for at least the last few posts about whether or not He was God Himself or just Son of God?  (I was personally concluding that He was and is both, as well as the last Adam.) Or did I completely misunderstand you, and were you attempting [to clarify] an Arian argument??  Or did the conversation go beyond that point already and I honestly missed the transition???  My attention span does that sometimes if I'm not careful.  And where I'm at, it's sneaking towards 1am.

What I understand is God became human (Adam man, homo sapien), died, raised from dead as NEW man (Christ the Lord from heaven, homo novae) something God already, and is entering into Divinity, something to be finished when God becomes all in all; and that He is including us, "...members of His body, bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh," (Eph 5) something to be also finished when God is all in all.  This is a kind of over simplification.

Hence the dragging part--as he is lifted up he drags the rest of creation with him.

What Pierac is overlooking, I think, is this is all part of the creation process, and it's still ongoing.  This is how God is creating through Jesus.

[Craig]

Not to pursue it exhaustively, but to go one step beyond...
Not just as a destiny, "that God may be all in all;" (1 Cor 15:28) but, as a present reality, "The All, and in all is Christ." (Col 3:11) We are members of "The All."  We sit as Him on the Great White Throne.

Yep. I touch on this but haven't expanded on it either.

Right. That is what Scripture says. He became a man, in order that He make all mankind Children of God. So when He returns to God, God will be all in all because we will be with Him.

Craig

[reFORMer]

To believe what is contained in The Apostles' Creed has been universally sufficient for 2,000 years to be accepted as a member of the Church.  Of all the religions of the world, The Faith of the largest percentage of humanity is herein expressed.  With full committment of faith I heartily confess these truths from which I consider my life and it's enjoyment to come.  This is the basis of my experience of God and any hope for the future, both personally and for the rest of mankind.

The Apostles' Creed

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;

3. Who was born by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary,

4. Was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried; He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose from the dead;

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;

7. From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.

8. And in the Holy Ghost;

9. The Holy Universal Church;

10. The forgiveness of sins;

11. The resurrection of the flesh.

Older than the official "Apostles' Creed
This form of the Apostles' Creed called Roman is older by 300 years than the Recieved.  (Though the phrase, "He descended into hell" is not in it, it is in the Received Apostles' Creed, and the same for the change from "body" to "flesh," which is older, in point 11)  Though existing even earlier in fragmentary form, it is the oldest of the the three or four earliest.  By calling them the ecumenical creeds, "We understand the doctrinal confessions of ancient Christianity, which are to this day either formally or tacitly acknowledged in the Greek, the Latin, and the Evangelical Protestant Churches, and form a bond of union between them. . . These three or four creeds contain, in brief popular outline, the fundamental articles of the Christian faith, as necessary and sufficient for salvation."— The Creeds of Christendom by Philip Schaff.  He also points out that the Apostles' Creed, "Together with the Lord's Prayer and the Ten Commandments, was incorporated in the Lutheran, the Genevan, the Heidelberg, and other standard Catechisms." The Ten Commandments are also part of my faith, being spoken by God directly in the hearing of all the people, unlike the rest of what we call The Law of Moses.  They are as absolute, producing reward or punishment, in the moral realm as the law of gravity does in it's realm.

It is important to point out that you can look in vain in The Apostles', the Nicene, and the Athanasian Creed, including the christological statement of Chalcedon (451) for even a hint that everlasting torment is considered a part of The Faith.  In fact, for at least the first 500 years of Church history it is easily demonstrated to be a minority opinion, of which this evidence of the ecumenical Creeds is a part.

[Craig]

I agree with the Apostle's Creed, indeed. It holds more precedence than the Nicene Creed. I find the Nicene Creed of 325 does not contradict the Apostle's Creed. There is even a difference between the Nicene Creed of 325 and the Nicene-Constantinople of 381. The Nicene Creed was actually the specifically the Apostle's creed forumlated to combat the Arian Heresy, which did not arise until the late 3rd Century/ early 4th Century.

[martincisneros]

To believe what is contained in The Apostles' Creed has been universally sufficient for 2,000 years to be accepted as a member of the Church.  Of all the religions of the world, The Faith of the largest percentage of humanity is herein expressed.  With full committment of faith I heartily confess these truths from which I consider my life and it's enjoyment to come.  This is the basis of my experience of God and any hope for the future, both personally and for the rest of mankind.

The Apostles' Creed

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord;

3. Who was born by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary,

4. Was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried; He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose from the dead;

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;

7. From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead.

8. And in the Holy Ghost;

9. The Holy Universal Church;

10. The forgiveness of sins;

11. The resurrection of the flesh.

Older than the official "Apostles' Creed
This form of the Apostles' Creed called Roman is older by 300 years than the Recieved.  (Though the phrase, "He descended into hell" is not in it, it is in the Received Apostles' Creed, and the same for the change from "body" to "flesh" in point 11)  Though existing even earlier in fragmentary form, it is the oldest of the the three or four earliest.  By calling them the ecumenical creeds, "We understand the doctrinal confessions of ancient Christianity, which are to this day either formally or tacitly acknowledged in the Greek, the Latin, and the Evangelical Protestant Churches, and form a bond of union between them. . . These three or four creeds contain, in brief popular outline, the fundamental articles of the Christian faith, as necessary and sufficient for salvation."— The Creeds of Christendom by Philip Schaff.  He also points out that the Apostles' Creed, "Together with the Lord's Prayer and the Ten Commandments, was incorporated in the Lutheran, the Genevan, the Heidelberg, and other standard Catechisms." The Ten Commandments are also part of my faith, being spoken by God directly in the hearing of all the people, unlike the rest of what we call The Law of Moses.  They are as absolute, producing reward or punishment, in the moral realm as the law of gravity does in it's realm.

It is important to point out that you can look in vain in The Apostles', the Nicene, and the Athanasian Creed, including the christological statement of Chalcedon (451) for even a hint that everlasting torment is considered a part of The Faith.  In fact, for at least the first 500 years of Church history it is easily demonstrated to be a minority opinion, of which this evidence of the ecumenical Creeds is a part.

:goodpost: All I could remember of the Apostles' Creed was the Rich Mullens version of it (which I totally love and believe), and I'm too lazy at nearly 2am, my Central time zone, to google it :laughing7:

[Molly]

What is the descended into Hell part from?

I thought he told the thief he would be with him this day in Paradise.

Forgive, my ignorance on this.

[Molly]

Jesus pretty much prayed in John 17 to be reclothed with the glory that He had before the present world was. 

5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

--John 17

[martincisneros]

What is the descended into Hell part from?

I thought he told the thief he would be with him this day in Paradise.

Forgive, my ignorance on this.

I'm not sure what to think about it, right now, since I'm lacking any real belief in Hell right now.  If it's originally from the Greek word "Hades," then it's saying that He descended into the grave.  Otherwise, in Peter's writings it says that He took the Gospel to those that were disobedent in the days of Noah, so that although they're judged in the flesh, for the deeds of the flesh, now they can live for God through a belief in what Christ proclaimed to them.  The way I used to reconcile it, before things became sooo complicated with looking over the Greek on every single thing, is that the Scriptures say that "by Himself He purged our sins."  So, the Holy Spirit had to have left at some point for a brief season so that He could cry "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me."  Holy Spirit takes the two men that died with Jesus into paradise, while Jesus goes and does whatever needed to be done.  Some believe that He bore some punishment for us, having been made sin for us and then later justified in the spirit, while others believe that He simply went about His preaching ministry until His resurrection.

[reFORMer]

What is the descended into Hell part from?

I thought he told the thief he would be with him this day in Paradise.

Forgive, my ignorance on this.

I probably should've transliterated it as hades but when I originaly posted it in answer to ETers it seemed more pungent to use the English word "hell" which is how the books usually have it.

1 Peter 3:18-22...
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I Peter 4:5-6...
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit

Forgive me, but I have to leave for now.

James Rohde

[Craig]

Jesus pretty much prayed in John 17 to be reclothed with the glory that He had before the present world was. 

Exactly. As I eluded but have not expanded, just like reFORMer, about what happens in the Resurrection when God is all in all.

[Molly]

Will somebody please explain this to me?  Why it has to be this way?  This makes my head spin.

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Adam] came also the resurrection of the dead.

[martincisneros]

Will somebody please explain this to me?  Why it has to be this way?  This makes my head spin.

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Adam] came also the resurrection of the dead.

For since by Adam came death, by the Last Adam came also the resurrection of the dead.  What's hard about that? LOL!

You could also read it in the way that you seem to have, because it was Adam that fell, but it was also Adam that believed the promise that in his Seed the serpent's seed would have it's head crushed.  He evidently clung ferociously to that promise for however long he lived after his fall, if it was the whole of 930 years after the fall or 900 years of it, or 929 years of it.  A lot of people look at Joshua and Caleb having held on to God's promise for 40 years.  What if you held on to something for over 900 years that you never saw in your lifetime?  Think you might have a special place in the heart of God over that??

But essentially, verse 21 of 1Corinthians 15 ties into the 22nd verse that:

As in Adam (i.e. as in Adam's death) all men die (because all were in Adam when he died), so also in Christ (i.e. in Christ's death) all men are made alive (because they were accounted as being in Him when He died).

Romans 5 goes a little further into this with the disobedience of the one that died brought death to all, and the obedience of the one that died brought life to all.  The one and the many equal the all in that chapter, so that it's not a contradiction that it says in two back to back verses that all and the many are made righteous.  2Corinthians 5:21 says that He was made to be sin for us, so that we'd be made the righteousness of God in Him.  The question to ask of that verse is how many was He made to be sin for?  Not how many does He have to wrestle in the Kingdom, as though He were wrestling with Jacob all night.

1Corinthians 15 and Mark 4 say that God chose the sowing and reaping method to overcome sin and death in the universe.  People's view of sowing and reaping is generally bent towards the wicked side and only seeing calamity, when every good thing that comes to us is from sowing and reaping as well.  The problem that often comes is not knowing where the seed to a particular kindness in our lives was sown.  This covers generational issues, the intercessions of the saints, and Jesus in His High Priestly ministry, along with all of the seed that He sowed in His earthly ministry that He's probably still reaping harvests from.

[Roy Monis]

Pierac, I think you are rightly perceiving Jesus as the prototype son.  He is the firstborn of many brothers.

What is actually happening here?  The divinity of all the fulness of the Godhead has entered the human body of flesh and blood--the Word became flesh and walked among us.

The Light has come into the world--in flesh and blood, walking on the feet of man.

But, that's not the end of it.  Because for him to be the captain of our salvation, he must conquer the death of the body--he must reverse the law of physics as we know it.

Thus, the resurrected Christ is the first of a new creation--but he has resurrected himself--because who could do this, if not God?

I am not intending to resurrect myself.  God, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ will do that--he has so promised me.


John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


[/quote


Hi! Molly

I agree, Jesus Christ is the first-born in the flesh of us all, prospective sons and daughters of God. We are all being lead to the Father by our elder Brother Jesus Christ who is; "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (Jn.14:6).

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

If Jesus and the Father were the same being why do all the apostles begin their epistles with "peace from God our Father AND the lord Jesus Christ"?

Because the Father is God in Heaven, and our Lord Jesus Christ was God on descended to earth. The distinction was placed because God was still in heaven, even though He became flesh and dwelt amongst us. It is One and same God.

Let me repeat, God is heaven the Father and God who lowered Himself and took on the image of man, is Jesus Christ.

Honestly, it is not that hard to understand.

Hi! SOtW

This is how I understand it. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.......And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth........No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:1-3; 14; 18).

"He was in the beginning with God." Tells me that there are two entities present the Word and God. Then we are told that the Word also is God. Still two entities and both God. Then in Vs.14 we are told that the Word/God became flesh. This means that there are two Gods, one in heaven the Father and the other on earth the Word/Son. But Jesus tells us "I and the Father are One" (Jn.10:30).

Now in Vs.18 this problem is cleared up. Here we are told that the Word/Son was in the Father's bosom, in other words the Father was carrying the Son. With being a one parent situation the Son would inherit the identical character traits of the Father, a snap shot image or clone of the Father but subject to Him by virtue of being the Son. Still ONE GOD.

For example; at the consummation of the ages when the Son hands the kingdom including us to the Father; "For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all." (1Cor.15:27-28), how many Gods will there be? Will there be billions upon billions of Gods or just the ONE GOD?

The Father is eternally ONE GOD and all things are in Him and of Him. At this moment in time there is but the Word/Son/Christ/God in the family of the Father, but at the consummation of the ages the family will have grown and He will still be the Father, ONE GOD of a very large family. All worship goes to the Father/Son because they are One. "I and the Father are One" (Jn.10:30).

This is how I see it brother and the nitpicking over the Father being the One God is so very unnecessary.

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/117/117193tdajxe3wh8.gif)

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

What Bible are you quoting from since my three agree with this wording "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." (Jn.1:1-3).

Due to time/space restraints (pun intended) Let's just deal with your "Certainly"
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. "

Why have you left out "He was in the beginning with God."? Have you some good reason for this? Is it not in your Bible? And what about (Jn.1:18), "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." Does your Bible not have this verse in it?

You can't base your argument on one word juggled scriptural verse and leave out all the other supporting verses, that is real naughty, the last time that happened to me was in Babylon and I told them what to do with it as I'm telling you now. Keep to the Scriptures.

In your view the Father/God was the Word who became flesh, well if that's what you think, then pray tell which Father was the Word/Jesus Christ praying to "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." (Luke 22:42)?  and a dozen or so other places, surely not to Himself? 

Be real brother! Give Christ His body back as reFORMer has requested.

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[firstborn888]

What I understand is God became human (Adam man, homo sapien), died, raised from dead as NEW man (Christ the Lord from heaven, homo novae) something God already, and is entering into Divinity, something to be finished when God becomes all in all; and that He is including us, "...members of His body, bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh," (Eph 5) something to be also finished when God is all in all.  This is a kind of over simplification.

I believe this to be the case. God became human in the first Adam and is revealing His glory in us as we are being raised from the realm of death/darkness into a new man.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

I appreciate you asking this question of SOTW but forgiv the intrusion and allow me to add my bit.

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

Except for the words substance, nature, persons which are carnal and worldly because the Father is Spirit and so is Christ. They do not have substance or nature, they are identical cloned Spirit Entities. Other than that I believe I accept all the rest of it.

It is clearly emphasized here that Jesus Christ/Word/Son wasBegotten but not created the basis of the original discussion. And that satisfies me, does it not you?

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)

Roy   UK

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Paul

Reference this quote to reFORMer

Ok reFORMer, thank you for your input.  I'm sure your sincere and love the lord as I!  So why do you see the "word" as being God Almighty! and I do not? Could it be because you follow the traditions of men? First you let emotion, cloud your understanding! Simply put God has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) here clearly does!  So, I will leave it to you to figure it out! Yes, eternity has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) does! (John 1:1)   :mshock:

Who told you that the Word was the logos?  There is no mention of of it. Let's read it carefully for once; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God"..........."No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:1-3, 18).

He was in the beginning with God, this is the Word that you say is the logos. Who pray is the begotten God in the bosom of the Father?

Be real!

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)   

Roy   UK

[reFORMer]

Hi! Paul

Reference this quote to reFORMer

Ok reFORMer, thank you for your input.  I'm sure your sincere and love the lord as I!  So why do you see the "word" as being God Almighty! and I do not? Could it be because you follow the traditions of men? First you let emotion, cloud your understanding! Simply put God has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) here clearly does!  So, I will leave it to you to figure it out! Yes, eternity has no beginning, but the "word" (Logos) does! (John 1:1)   :mshock:

Who told you that the Word was the logos?  There is no mention of of it. Let's read it carefully for once; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God"..........."No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:1-3, 18).

He was in the beginning with God, this is the Word that you say is the logos. Who pray is the begotten God in the bosom of the Father?

Be real!

(http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/913/913823shy6qui595.gif)   

Roy   UK

The quote you made Roy was something written by Pierac.  My answer on p.18, #446 was:

Is my word me?  If I'm around the corner of the house and you don't see me, when I yell at you is it me talking to you?  While I am in Georgia on the east side of the continent, on the computer I call my sister in California, is she really talking to me?  My body is here but my word is in California.  We have true fellowship.  Even more so if our images are sent over the internet live to one another.  Like Jesus says, "He that has seen me has seen the Father."  Jesus says, "Lo, I and the little children who are given Me by God! (Heb 2:13)  As also Isaiah says He shall be called, "...the everlasting Father..."