Universal Restoration verses

[DavidFord]

Universal Restoration & the Fate of the Wicked
a Tentmaker.com handout, modified

Christians in the twentieth century have primarily three views of the fate of the wicked:
The Majority View:  Eternal Torture
The Minority View:  Annihilation, or Eternal Death
The Remnant View:  Eventual Salvation Through Jesus Christ

The eternal torture view has been the majority view for about the last fifteen hundred years in the West.  The main Scriptures used to support that view are:
Matthew 25:31-46
Mark 9:42-48
Luke 16:19-31
Matthew 12:24-37
John 3:35-36, 5:24-29
Revelation 19:19-21
Revelation 20:7-10
Revelation 20:11-15

The annihilation view has been the minority view since the beginning of church writings after the disappearance of the apostles.  Several of the most ancient of the Christian writings taught this view.  Some Scriptures used to support this view are:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
John 3:16
Jude 1:7
1 Timothy 6:9
Jeremiah 51:39, 57
Malachi 1:4, 3:19-21
Obadiah 1:15-16
Matthew 10:28
Hebrews 10:39
Revelation 20:11-15

This may come as a shock to most Christians today, but what is today a remnant view in the West was the majority view for the first five hundred years of Christianity.  As a matter of fact, of the six theological schools we know existed in the second to fourth century, four of them believed in the salvation of all mankind, only one taught annihilation, and only one taught eternal torture, the school at Rome-- see _Heaven's Doors: Wider Than You Ever Believed!_ by George W. Sarris.  For a brief history of how this reversal of doctrines came about, see the article, The Early Christians' View of Salvation.  The doctrine of eternal torture did not become popular in the West until the fifth century when Augustine began to push it.  The Early Church's majority view remains to this day the Eastern Orthodox understanding:

Orthodox view of Salvation - Steve Robinson
https://youtu.be/WosgwLekgn8
Brad Jersak - The Gospel in Chairs
https://youtu.be/D0BUFR9wSko

Most Christians, when they are told their doctrines do not agree with the views of the bulk of early Christians, do not believe it.  They are so certain that the Bible does not contradict itself and that their beliefs are based upon the Bible.  Those who are in the majority and minority views often have those Scriptures that support their position memorized.  Evangelists always use them at revival time to scare people into their church. 

Below is a list of Scriptures that are used to support the view that all mankind will be saved.  Do they contradict the beliefs that you presently hold?  If they do, does the Bible contradict itself?  And if it doesn't, is it possible that the present church majority is wrong?

1 Timothy 2:4  God will have all to be saved
Psalms 135:6  God does what pleases Him
Isaiah 46:10  God will do all His pleasure
John 8:29  Jesus always does what pleases His Father
Ephesians 1:11  God works all after the counsel of His will
2 Peter 3:9  God isn't willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance
Daniel 4:35  God's will done in heaven and earth
Hebrews 7:25  Jesus is able to save to the uttermost

Proverbs 16:9  Man devises, God directs his steps
Proverbs 19:21  Man devises, but God's counsel stands
Psalms 33:15  God fashions all hearts
Deuteronomy 32:39  God kills and makes alive
Psalms 90:3  God turns man to destruction then says "return"
Lamentations 3:31,32  God will not cast off forever
James 5:11  End of the Lord is full of mercy

1 Timothy 2:6  Salvation of all is testified in due time
1 Tim 4:10  God is the life-giver of all people-- esp. of the believers
John 12:47  Jesus came to save all
I Timothy 4:9-11  Jesus is the Savior of all
John 12:32  Jesus draws all to Himself
Colossians 1:20  All reconciled unto God

Romans 5:15-21  In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1 Corinthians 15:22  In Adam all die, in Christ all live

Ephesians 1:9-10  All made new in Jesus at the fullness of times
Romans 11:36  All out of God, through Him, and into Him
Revelation 21:4-5  No more tears, all things made new

Ephesians 1:22-23  all things subjected under Jesus' feet
Philippians 3:21  all things are made subject to Jesus
Psalms 66:3-4  Enemies will submit to God
1 Corinthians 15:26  Last enemy, death, will be destroyed;
Rev 20:14  death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire
Isaiah 25:8  He will swallow up death in victory

Philippians 2:9-11 (from Aramaic, dukhrana.com)  Every tongue shall confess Jesus is of Master Yah (cf. 1 John 2:22)
1 Cor 12:3  Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Acts 2:16-18  Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh

II Corinthians 5:17  whoever is in Christ is a new creation;
Ephesians 1:10  in the fullness of time God will gather together into one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth
Ephesians 4:10  Jesus will fill all things
1 Corinthians 15:22, 24-28  God will be all in all

Revelation 5:13  All creation seen praising God
Colossians 1:16  all things were created for Him
Romans 8:19-21  Creation set at liberty

Romans 11:32  All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
Isaiah 45:23  All descendants of Israel justified
Romans 11:26  All Israel will be saved
Ezekiel 16:55  Sodom will be restored
Isaiah 19:14-25  Egypt and Assyria will be restored
Acts 3:20-21  Restoration of all

Psalms 138:4  All kings will praise God
Isaiah 25:7  Will destroy veil that is spread over all nations
Psalms 86:9  All nations will worship God
Isaiah 2:2  All nations shall flow to the Lord's house (cf. Micah 4:1-7)
Revelation 15:4  All nations worship when judgments are seen

II Corinthians 5:15, 19  Jesus died for all
Psalms 22:25-29  All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him
Hebrews 8:11-12  All will know God
Titus 2:11  Grace has appeared to all
1 Corinthians 4:5  All will have praise of God
Psalms 145:9-10  He is good to all and merciful to all His work
Psalms 145:14  God raises all who fall
Psalms 65:2-4  All flesh will come to God
Psalms 145:10  All God's will praise Him
Isaiah 25:6  Lord makes feast for all people
Luke 2:10  Jesus will be joy to all people
Luke 3:6  all flesh will see the life that is of God (cf. Isaiah 40:5)
1 Corinthians 3:15  All saved, so as by fire

John 1:9  Jesus enlightens everybody that comes into the world
John 1:29  the Lamb of God bears the sin of the world
1 John 2:2  Jesus is the propitiation for our and for all the world's sins
John 3:16-17  God loved the world and sent his son into the world that the world might live by means of him
John 6:33  Jesus gives life to the world
John 8:12  Jesus is the light of the world
John 4:42  Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4:14  Jesus is the Savior of the world
Romans 11:15, 32, 36  Reconciliation of the world

John 6:37  all that the Father gave Jesus will come to Jesus
John 6:39  whatever the Father gave Jesus, Jesus will lose nobody, but raise them up
John 3:35  All has been given into His hand
John 17:2  Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him
John 13:3  The Father gave Him all things
Hebrews 1:1-2  Jesus is heir of all things

Ephesians 2:4-10  when we were dead in our sins, God gave us life in Christ; we are God's, created in Jesus Christ for doing good works; His grace shown in the ages to come

Romans 8:38-39  nothing can sever us from God's love

Psalms 72:18  God only does wondrous things

What Pleases God?
1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ("will have" in some translations) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time..."
I John 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.
John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent me, that of all He has given me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.

More handouts:
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/podbayfm/listen_to_episodes_of_heal_the_sick_podcast_on_podbay/

[Forest]

I love this site and discussion forum for bringing forth great posts like these! Thank you!  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Amen! :iagree: It's an excellent summary!

  :thumbsup:

[DavidFord]

'if the blood of Jesus paid for everyone's sins, even peadophile popes are not sinners, because Jesus paid for the sins of future murderers, peadophiles, rapists, etc.'
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's physical healing (and sins), but only a tiny fraction of sick, diseased, hurting people (and sinners) have taken advantage of that payment.  It's like if you have a million dollars in the bank, but you're ignorant of that and continue to live in poverty.

Isaiah 53 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+53&version=NKJV 
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

1 Peter 2:23-25 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter+2:23-25&version=NKJV
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

[sheila]

it doesn't matter..it is stored up for them in heaven..where robbers andthieves can't touch it.While on earth robbers and thieves may

have broken intohis house and bound him in hard bondage to sin temporally..but he will enter into his inheritance. :2c:

[sheila]

 :2c: sin has it's compulsions[forces]in Christ there is freedom.. :girlheart:

[DavidFord]

it doesn't matter..it is stored up for them in heaven..where robbers and thieves can't touch it.While on earth robbers and thieves may have broken into his house and bound him in hard bondage to sin temporally..but he will enter into his inheritance.

Sounds good to me.

another person:  "Compare the 2 verses I posted, and tell me, do you see contradiction?? Contradiction is a human error."  I agree that there's conflict between Ezekiel 18:19-20 and Exodus 20:5-6.  The Old Testament contains progressive revelation about the nature of God.  Some ideas about God, e.g. that God prompted King David to sin by taking a census, turned out to be incorrect or incomplete understandings.  Jesus is the definitive revelation of the nature of God; every Old Testament passage about God must be viewed through the lens of Jesus, who was God in an earth-suit.

A nice essay on the development of biblical understanding about the conception of the afterlife and God is
_Immortality: The Drew Lecture: Delivered October 11, 1912_ by Robert Henry Charles (Oxford:  Clarendon Press), 38pp.
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
an extract of which is at
R.H. Charles: bring eschatology into harmony w/ Xtian theology of God
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/r-h-charles-bring-eschatology-into-harmony-w-xtian-theology-of-god/

A father's sins get passed down to future generations (and often to far more than just 4 generations) because the father's sins invite demons, which can influence not just him, but others in his family, and when he dies, the demons that were influencing him seek to continue influencing other members of his family, down through the generations.  For example, men involved in Freemasonry call down horrible curses on themselves, which often bring much pain and suffering to their descendents for generations.

[sheila]

 :2c: familiar[family of liar] spirits..yep...these are set to devour subsequent children born in the family as soon as they part the womb..

or even yet,while in the womb. :girlheart:

[sheila]

 :2c: another thing I would like to discuss,that some may not understand..and stumble over is this..the extent of the CHANGE

of the new creature of such former ones.We will certainly not know them as a man any longer..much less a former pedophile,gay,murderer

Judas,Ahab,Jezebel,Hitler...etc.  The new CREATURE shall not be ashamed! :girlheart:

[sheila]

 :2c: the new Creature is given a new ID a new name,face..and will deny their former selves.The former things will NOT be remembered.

Luke9;23....... :girlheart:

[marie glen]

Amen, ultimately all saved, all reconciled, and all no longer ashamed.. no longer beastly, as King Nebuchadnezzar was for 7 times.. then brought back to his senses.. the prodigal ("all") mankind welcomed, loved.. have a banquet (Rev 21:1-5) ..bring out the best robe!

But, the other side of the coin.. "the smoke (memory/lesson) of babble on (and on's) destruction will rise up forever and ever..

...they shall look upon the dead bodies and abhor..

Paul wrote "so it will be known how horrible sin (missing the mark, imperfection) really is.."

The unavoidable lesson of good from evil.. Two paths.. path, or way, of life and the path/way of death.. the wages of sin..
..paid for all (the lamb). But the lesson - you cannot take the way of death. It can never work, but one can only "perish"! ..so soul, you are not immortal on your own, so don't do it.. logic engraved upon the forehead. The lesson - lion of Juda? ..other side of the coin.. harsh reality, the iron (measuring) rod (ruler) that truth cannot be broken, but breaks...

"The former things - tendency to sin, err - imperfection - shall no longer come to mind.. Neither shall they rise in the heart." ..."It is finished."
   :Peace2: :girlheart:

[sheila]

amen,Marie  Job41;8..if you lay a hand on him you will remember the struggle and never do it again!God'swork[job] He is doing

in man through this expierenceof evilwe are suffering..yes,a little evil has spoiled much good. :girlheart:

[DavidFord]

the new Creature is given a new ID a new name,face..and will deny their former selves.The former things will NOT be remembered

Supposedly people in heaven are recognizable by the way they looked on earth when young.  If redeemed sinners in heaven don't remember how God rescued them from their errant ways, then God can't be praised in heaven for rescuing them.

someone else:   "why is it important to believe in Jesus in this age, when everyone will believe after judgement?"  There are people currently hell who are suffering tremendously.  If they'd turned their lives over to Jesus while they were living on earth, they wouldn't be in hell now.

[sheila]

 :2c:well...it didn't stop the angels in heaven from praising Him..the children of the resurrection are like the angels.   :girlheart:

[rosered]

  Always choose the good that the perfect and compete will come  to you /us  :HeartThrob: praise GOD in all things for His goodness  and mercy and  love your enemies    do good to all   , worthy or not worthy of your time and  help.   
GOD SEES AND KNOWS   everything in our hearts  being purified  by His presence .


make the tree good  and the fruits of the  Holy  Spirit , where every good thing from God comes from HIS   WORD  .

   Matt 12   Good and Bad Fruit   in the tree of knowledge of good and evil    that we all eat of first . now choose the good  and the perfect and complete will come  to us and eat of the tree of Life  .



32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come. [both   in that age / tree /law ]

33Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.


34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks....

  we reap what we sow   , good or bad ,    the fruits makes it known  to all.......

  ONLY GOD IS GOOD AND PERFECT    and we have to  make God first   in  in our lives and LOVE HIM  first  and foremost   , like He loved us  first   while we  are yet sinners  in  order for this to happen   .

  the name of God is blasphemed   all the day long
Isaiah 52
...4For this is what the Lord GOD says: "At first My people went down to Egypt to live, then Assyria oppressed them without cause.

5And now what have I here? declares the LORD. For My people have been taken without cause; those who rule them taunt, declares the LORD, and My name is blasphemed all day long.

6Therefore My people will know My name; therefore they will know on that day that I am He who speaks. Here I am!"...

2 peter 2 


Deliverance from False Prophets
1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.


They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed.


3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words.


The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep....


GOD is  making HIS  SON  THE LORD JESUS CHRIST   the savior of the  WHOLE  WORLD !

but the world will suffer  great things  by opposing HIM  ,  in order to know  GODS NAME  in the earth ,  suffer at the hands of evil  ones  from the Evil   One

  remember the Lords prayer  Matt 6
...12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

14For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you....     

The Lord   WILL lead us  away from temptation [a way of escape ] or allow us to  be  led by   the evil one  into temptation.        the narrow path that leads to Life   is us  taking up  our cross   and following Jesus where ever He goes  .
  HE COMES TO SAVE THE WORLD   and not destroy it .

   Our hope is in GOD only  by  the Lord Jesus Christ making the paths straight and narrow  , not the broad path that leads to destruction it is not Gods will that any should perish , but have the abundant Life now  , or he could of let us all  live in fear of death   , till we literally die   , we are more than flesh and blood that never ever was set to inherit  anything   but death in the first place , We can LIVE in the Spirit now   and Live now  in the Spirit of Life  , GOD made a way  even now   and all will   know this in the end ...    All will LIVE BECAUSE OF HIM

John 6 56 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him.


57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your forefathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever."...

  they will never die because  they have already passed from the death to life   and  the dead will live  because of Him  , death  is the last enemy to overcome in Christ   , everyone will know from the least to the greatest   because of HIM  , Even the ones whom pierced  Him though  the heart .

  Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world   from the very foundation of it  being made for Gods glory  and power  to be made known to all  in the end .. 

[DavidFord]

"God never lies nor does His Word" 
Do you think these remarks by Jesus are accurate/correct?:

John 3:14 (KJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  ....
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men unto me.

======================================
IMO, early on, God made angels, so the hierarchy was God, angels.  Then God made humans, and the hierarchy was God, humans, angels.  Then Adam and Eve sinned, so the hierarchy became God, angels, humans.  Then the 2nd Adam i.e. Jesus made the right decisions, and established his kingdom which is ever-expanding, and undid in the spiritual realm what the 1st Adam had done, so the hierarchy is once again God, humans, angels.  God is crushing the devil under our feet.

[rosered]

"God never lies nor does His Word" 
Do you think these remarks by Jesus are accurate/correct?:

John 3:14 (KJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:  ....
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men unto me.

  Yes I do , but not in the  way most think  or more so not think of   past the   two sentences ....

Why do you think Jesus said , Be as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove ?
  a serpent is a symbol   of wisdom .. and most never  get past the worldly wisdom [bound by it ] death part .

  the pattern was   a shadow of the good things to come .  being Jesus Christ  ON THE CROSS
  same   as   seeing  a  fiery serpent , Jesus come to bring the Holy Spirit & fire  as a  deep cleansing and healing  purpose , and live  a pure life .
   

And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live."


But consider how hard that would be to do here  in the temporal  realm  in your own  mind ? born with
  [carnal minded =death ]
  mind of Christ =life
  new mind new life  , born again new .

Knowing all things is able to know the worldly wisdom as     vain and worthless[only works in the temporary]   as mankind is deceived by it 

as the wisdom of Gods purpose  is being made known by the  revealing    ,the cure ,  Jesus Christ  in  healing    and making whole what was broken and scattered  and burned [hurt] . . by the lies [worldly wisdom ] as   the serpents bite and devour one another  in Babylons  wisdom  . mixing both together and causing chaos and confusion  with lies and truth  , good and evil  ,  pure and  vile    , two laws   etc ...  one for  extinction the other for Glory .

God /Jesus  Christ does the separating/division [Luke 12;49-54 ]   

death has an end   and is the last enemy , to be swallowed up in life .  all forms of hurt and death  and the  concept  word hell   that has stumbled  and bound and paralyzed   so many by fear  and its torment to enter  on past  it .


They did not love  their lives unto death , what a sentence to ponder huh?

  To me the word hell  and love are the two most  misunderstood and abused words  of the bible and almost impossible to explain  to anyone , it will take the HOLY SPIRIT to teach us   deeply .  when God is willing to do so  , in my opinion

  Some on this side and others when they cross over , it was always about the cross

  This is why Paul said , I do not want to know anything but Jesus Christ and him crucified  ,   Paul was saying he was leaving death behind him    and was  ALIVE  in and though and by the Lord Jesus Christ  revealing Himself to Paul  though revelation  a surprising and previously unknown fact, especially one that is made known in a dramatic way.   a waking up and rising up out of    the sleep  of death[bound ]  totally  .  a real life bonafied resurrection  , another concept bareilly  understood  in a human mind ,   in my own opinion  , I surly never knew . 

adjective. made, done, presented, etc., in good faith; without deception or fraud: a bona fide statement of intent to sell. authentic; true: a bona fide  truth .
  :2c:

[marie glen]

the new Creature is given a new ID a new name,face..and will deny their former selves.The former things will NOT be remembered

Supposedly people in heaven are recognizable by the way they looked on earth when young.  If redeemed sinners in heaven don't remember how God rescued them from their errant ways, then God can't be praised in heaven for rescuing them.

someone else:   "why is it important to believe in Jesus in this age, when everyone will believe after judgement?"  There are people currently hell who are suffering tremendously.  If they'd turned their lives over to Jesus while they were living on earth, they wouldn't be in hell now.

But God chooses when a person believes.

Inherent immortality / immortal soul is the BIGGEST foundation and support of the hell/hades myth. :doh:

Alas unfortunately all of us have carnal mindedness and it clings to what it's been taught and to our own fancies.. So it takes a while for the "washing of the Word" to do its work.. myself included of course!

"God is Love" - hell is not love.

Letting mankind experience their own doings, is. (Love)

This world, including churches and doctrines is covered with lies, like a wet heavy quilt set low in the atmosphere. Confusion. Ultimately we can't have the two foreheads - His Seal, and Mystery Babble. But if we keep reading the Bible, and sincerely and consistently submitting our self directly to Him.. myths of man and devils will fade away from our consciousness, the veil gets thinner.. (Til voila! the forehead is sealed!? I have to think, blessing of blessings!)

And it, and our other flawed ways will, in His kingdom, hopefully for all believers, in the millennium - will no longer come to mind.. :banana: God is good. May we read His Word like innocent children.. not attaching legend or seeing through the glasses of the world's myths of wisdom or knowledge so called.

By translators using the word hades, the adversary was successfully able to inject hell into the scripture - instead of using a word for bury or grave - which is what originally, and OT based, sheol was.

Ps.30:9 "what profit is there in my blood when I go DOWN TO THE PIT? will the DUST praise Thee?"

Isaiah 14:9,11 (KJ) says - "HELL from BENEATH is moved to meet thee (O ruler/king)..thy pomp brought down..the worm is spread under thee, and worms cover thee."

"The SOUL that sins shall die" - "The wages of sin is..?" "BUT GOD so loved He sent His only Son so that whoever believes in Him, will not ..?"

Sorry to use caps, I'm on this little tablet in the sunny outdoors.. lol.
God bless you, David, have a GREAT day :gsmile:

[marie glen]

P.S. - "...the worm is spread under thee, and worms cover thee.."  ! oh no ! not only is God burning ppl alive.. but there are squirming worms all over them! For ever and ever (or even temorarily!)..  :mshock: :faint: ...and some of them were never even warned.. never heard of God of the bible.. oh well. God is good and at least we'll always have a ready fire to roast marshmallows as we forever sing and dance for joy atop their writhing in hot burning flames..

"God is love" and "love never fails" - 1 Jn.4:8 and 1 Cor.13:8

Scratching head.. why were the flames (tongues) of fire so vastly different on Day of Pentecost? (Acts 2) For those HE chose to believe / whom HE gave the gift of faith to, as opposed to those poor sods HE didn't choose to give the gift to (during this brief life)?

"HE alone is immortal.." 1 Tim.1:16?

[DavidFord]

at least we'll always have a ready fire to roast marshmallows as we forever sing and dance for joy atop their writhing in hot burning flames

There is a hell.  Many people are there right now, with new arrivals hourly.  But in the end, our good Father will get back all his lost sheep/ lost coins/ prodigals.
I find Bryan Melvin's frightening account of his trip to hell credible, and he noticed new arrivals coming regularly.  I consider credible Sadhu Sundar Singh's accounts of what he learned from viewing the supernatural and from conversing with members of 'the great cloud of witnesses,' and he noted that when people die, after a while, they eventually end up in one of the hellish regions or one of the heavenly regions.
I've never given birth; I'm dependant on hearing others' experiences of giving birth for information about what it's like.  I've never been in a concentration camp; I'm dependant on hearing others' experiences of being in a concentration camp for information about what it's like.  I've never been to hell; I'm dependant on hearing others' experiences of being in or observing hell for information about what it's like.

Visions of the Spiritual World by Sadhu Sundar Singh (1926)
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
Once in the course of a conversation the
saints gave me this information:  "After
death the soul of every human being will
enter the world of spirits, and every one,
according to the stage of his spiritual growth,
will dwell with spirits like in mind and in
nature to himself, either in the darkness or in
the light of glory...."
After this conversation these saints conducted
me round and showed me many wonderful
things and places.

I saw that from all sides thousands upon
thousands of souls were constantly arriving
in the world of spirits, and that all were
attended by angels.  The souls of the good
had with them only angels and good spirits,
who had conducted them from their death-
beds.  Evil spirits were not allowed to come
near to them, but stood far off and watched.
I saw also that there were no good spirits
with the souls of the really wicked, but about
them were evil spirits, who had come with
them from their death-beds.... The evil spirits
almost immediately led these souls away
towards the darkness; for when in the flesh
they had consistently allowed evil spirits to
influence them for evil, and had willingly
permitted themselves to be enticed to all
kinds of wickedness.  For the angels in no
way interfere with the free will of any soul.
I saw there, also, many souls who had lately
come into the world of spirits, who were
attended by both good and evil spirits, as
well as by angels.  But before long the
radical difference of their lives began to
assert itself, and they separated themselves —
the good in character towards the good, and
the evil towards the evil.   ....

Sons of Darkness
How different from these are the souls of
those whose lives have been evil. Ill at ease
in the company of the Sons of Light, and
tormented by the all-revealing light of Glory,
they struggle to hide themselves in places
where their impure and sin-stained natures
will not be seen.  From the lowest and
darkest part of the world of spirits a black
and evil-smelling smoke arises, and in their
effort to hide themselves from the light, these
Sons of Darkness rush down, and cast
themselves headlong into it, and from it their
bitter wails of remorse and anguish are heard
constantly to arise.  But heaven is so arranged
that the smoke is not seen, nor are the wails
of anguish heard, by the spirits in heaven,
unless any of them for some special reason
should wish to see the evil plight of those
souls in darkness.

[DavidFord]

"God is Love" - hell is not love.
Letting mankind experience their own doings, is. (Love)

In Melvin's account of his trip to hell, he saw people experiencing the ugliness they themselves had done to others while living on earth.
Never-ending torture in hell isn't love.  Lengthy and painful-- but finite-- torment in hell, that leads to sinners seeing the error of their ways and concludes with their being restored by their loving Father, could very well be love.

[rosered]

"God is Love" - hell is not love.
Letting mankind experience their own doings, is. (Love)

In Melvin's account of his trip to hell, he saw people experiencing the ugliness they themselves had done to others while living on earth.
Never-ending torture in hell isn't love.  Lengthy and painful-- but finite-- torment in hell, that leads to sinners seeing the error of their ways and concludes with their being restored by their loving Father, could very well be love.

I watched an atheist  on you tube  video  years ago and never forgot it .
  He   was experiencing  a  horrible  torment  in an out of the body encounter  , while literally and physically dead .

  I have to admit this made an impression on me , he was shown the depths of hell  and also wonder about his perception of just what he was experiencing  , I know it  did make him a believer  , and maybe that is what it took for him to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because JESUS reached down with a powerful arm and pulled him out when He  called on the Lord with complete  and absolute  faith  he mustered up   from somewhere within  himself .

  He was no longer an atheist  after that , he was so humbled  by it all ,I actually cried with  him  in that moment and understood   that sometimes the stubbornness  of evil spirits  ruling  can and do cause us to be led astray .
  But Jesus is never far away from any of us   , we do learn obedience though the things we suffer   and sometimes  suffering is the only way we do learn obedience   and surrender  .
  I am convinced we get to experience both love and  pain  and most certainly loss.  We have an inner man and outer man  existence , what we see is not always what is .
This fairly young man  in his late 2o's     returned to his natural body  but had changed him  in a spiritual nature .
   I believe it is impossible to judge  everyone a certain way , because God deals with each and every one of us according to His own   Wisdom .

We learn to trust in Gods Wisdom  as a perfect and complete  work from the beginning to end  when  we have the UR [JESUS is the LORD OF ALL ,the dead and the living ]  faith  and that is GOD cannot be tempted as we are tempted  and HIS perfect Love cannot fail any one of us  , no matter how many opposing forces tries to  halt it . the truth will prevail ... Here Jesus shows us

Matt 20 15 Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?' 16So the last will be first, and the first will be last." ..........
   Saying this because   He died for  the whole world and was raised  up in power to    give Life to whom ever and when ever He pleases .  Everyone dead will hear His Voice and live  eventually  . for me I take great comfort in  believing  that .

[marie glen]

Two verses have made any and all tiny dregs of 'hell' to totally evaporate from my heart, mind and psyche. :gsmile:

2 Peter 2:9 "God knows how to preserve the unjust for correction/kolasis on day" (age?) "of judgment."

And how Jesus said, "All in the tombs" (graves) "will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of the tombs/graves) "..some to the resurrection of life" - at Jesus' return/appearing at the end of this present age - "and some in the resurrection of judgment" - "after the thousand years" (see Rev.20). [Two ages following this one? (imo, lol) -1- the millennium/"thousand years" and -2- "the judgment".

Then there's this about the LOF (lake of fire) - link pending, lol..

oye! I forgot to post the link! But this one isn’t too bad.. https://revelationofjesus.net/en/other-important-questions/nuclear-war-predicted-in-revelation/ - I didn’t read any other pages on the site..

& this one - https://endtimestruth.com/world-war-iii/nuclear-war-great-tribulation/

[DavidFord]

Everyone dead will hear His Voice and live  eventually  . for me I take great comfort in  believing  that

Me too.

[marie glen]

Amen.. Two things I wanted to mention.. Hubby today looking at a calendar says WHAT IS YOM KIPPER? (No I don't teach family members a whole lot. Oye.) So I told him and my daughter who wanted to know too.. Not that I kept their attention for very long at all..  So I told them it's Day Of Atonement.. and how I talk a lot about Day Of Atonement, that Day Of Atonement - the three words - are a summary of the WHOLE bible.

Of course I don't think they heard me.. (Not sure any one in the wide world does.)

I didn't tell them how I've proven Universal Reconciliation beyond doubt. :laughing7:

By knowing "what's called today" is our Day Of Atonement. And 'day'/age of "the Judgment" is Day Of Atonement (Reconciliation, etc.. salted with fire, etc) for ALL the rest of God's children.

How do I think I know that? By things Jesus said would occur at "the judgment" (which via Rev. 20, clearly follows the millennium/"thousand years".. being the 2 ages which make up Jesus' long second advent. (Confirmation sometimes is the continued building upon what He's teaching. These things about Day Of Atonement and the 2nd advent are a long series of scripture insights.. like pearls strung together, each one leading to the same truth.

Like bible prophecy that seems to remain a huge mystery to so many.. I can't understand why others cannot see that Day Of Judgment (kolasis!) IS Day Of Atonement.

How can it be any clearer? How His so short first advent perfectly fulfilled the Spring Holy Days, right down to the pattern(!) but that pattern is hard to see what with Spring Holy Week having 3 Sabbaths and First Day Of Unleavened Bread is/was sometimes called Passover, and vice versa.

So it seems highly logical (logic from logos, the words) that the Fall Holy Days (Lev.23) priphecy in detail His long 2nd advent. And the 3 peaks of.

Trumpets - 10 days/1000years later - Day Of Atonement - 5 days later -Tabernacles —> Rev.21:1-4 KJV! I guess I have to write a bookand become famous so it doesn't remain hidden? just kidding. :gsmile:

Now I forgot my second point I wantedtomention. Typos will have to wait.. gotta run. Hope this post isn't too riddled with typos.

2 Pet.2:9 - "God knows how to preserve the unjust for correction on Day of Judgment." Considering it not as metaphor/all about moi.

Key word Correction. Yhvh NEVER ever "misses the mark"! :gsmile: And i believe He is HIGHLY organized. (Seal 5 being like the blood of Abel. JN.5:28-29)