Universal Restoration & the Fate of the Wicked
a Tentmaker.com handout, modified
Christians in the twentieth century have primarily three views of the fate of the wicked:
The Majority View: Eternal Torture
The Minority View: Annihilation, or Eternal Death
The Remnant View: Eventual Salvation Through Jesus Christ
The eternal torture view has been the majority view for about the last fifteen hundred years in the West. The main Scriptures used to support that view are:
Matthew 25:31-46
Mark 9:42-48
Luke 16:19-31
Matthew 12:24-37
John 3:35-36, 5:24-29
Revelation 19:19-21
Revelation 20:7-10
Revelation 20:11-15
The annihilation view has been the minority view since the beginning of church writings after the disappearance of the apostles. Several of the most ancient of the Christian writings taught this view. Some Scriptures used to support this view are:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
John 3:16
Jude 1:7
1 Timothy 6:9
Jeremiah 51:39, 57
Malachi 1:4, 3:19-21
Obadiah 1:15-16
Matthew 10:28
Hebrews 10:39
Revelation 20:11-15
This may come as a shock to most Christians today, but what is today a remnant view in the West was the majority view for the first five hundred years of Christianity. As a matter of fact, of the six theological schools we know existed in the second to fourth century, four of them believed in the salvation of all mankind, only one taught annihilation, and only one taught eternal torture, the school at Rome-- see _Heaven's Doors: Wider Than You Ever Believed!_ by George W. Sarris. For a brief history of how this reversal of doctrines came about, see the article, The Early Christians' View of Salvation. The doctrine of eternal torture did not become popular in the West until the fifth century when Augustine began to push it. The Early Church's majority view remains to this day the Eastern Orthodox understanding:
Orthodox view of Salvation - Steve Robinson
https://youtu.be/WosgwLekgn8
Brad Jersak - The Gospel in Chairs
https://youtu.be/D0BUFR9wSko
Most Christians, when they are told their doctrines do not agree with the views of the bulk of early Christians, do not believe it. They are so certain that the Bible does not contradict itself and that their beliefs are based upon the Bible. Those who are in the majority and minority views often have those Scriptures that support their position memorized. Evangelists always use them at revival time to scare people into their church.
Below is a list of Scriptures that are used to support the view that all mankind will be saved. Do they contradict the beliefs that you presently hold? If they do, does the Bible contradict itself? And if it doesn't, is it possible that the present church majority is wrong?
1 Timothy 2:4 God will have all to be saved
Psalms 135:6 God does what pleases Him
Isaiah 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
John 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father
Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
2 Peter 3:9 God isn't willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance
Daniel 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth
Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
Proverbs 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
Proverbs 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
Psalms 33:15 God fashions all hearts
Deuteronomy 32:39 God kills and makes alive
Psalms 90:3 God turns man to destruction then says "return"
Lamentations 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever
James 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy
1 Timothy 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time
1 Tim 4:10 God is the life-giver of all people-- esp. of the believers
John 12:47 Jesus came to save all
I Timothy 4:9-11 Jesus is the Savior of all
John 12:32 Jesus draws all to Himself
Colossians 1:20 All reconciled unto God
Romans 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live
Ephesians 1:9-10 All made new in Jesus at the fullness of times
Romans 11:36 All out of God, through Him, and into Him
Revelation 21:4-5 No more tears, all things made new
Ephesians 1:22-23 all things subjected under Jesus' feet
Philippians 3:21 all things are made subject to Jesus
Psalms 66:3-4 Enemies will submit to God
1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed;
Rev 20:14 death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory
Philippians 2:9-11 (from Aramaic, dukhrana.com) Every tongue shall confess Jesus is of Master Yah (cf. 1 John 2:22)
1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Acts 2:16-18 Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh
II Corinthians 5:17 whoever is in Christ is a new creation;
Ephesians 1:10 in the fullness of time God will gather together into one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth
Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
1 Corinthians 15:22, 24-28 God will be all in all
Revelation 5:13 All creation seen praising God
Colossians 1:16 all things were created for Him
Romans 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty
Romans 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
Isaiah 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified
Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Ezekiel 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Isaiah 19:14-25 Egypt and Assyria will be restored
Acts 3:20-21 Restoration of all
Psalms 138:4 All kings will praise God
Isaiah 25:7 Will destroy veil that is spread over all nations
Psalms 86:9 All nations will worship God
Isaiah 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house (cf. Micah 4:1-7)
Revelation 15:4 All nations worship when judgments are seen
II Corinthians 5:15, 19 Jesus died for all
Psalms 22:25-29 All will turn to the Lord and all families will worship before Him
Hebrews 8:11-12 All will know God
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
1 Corinthians 4:5 All will have praise of God
Psalms 145:9-10 He is good to all and merciful to all His work
Psalms 145:14 God raises all who fall
Psalms 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God
Psalms 145:10 All God's will praise Him
Isaiah 25:6 Lord makes feast for all people
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
Luke 3:6 all flesh will see the life that is of God (cf. Isaiah 40:5)
1 Corinthians 3:15 All saved, so as by fire
John 1:9 Jesus enlightens everybody that comes into the world
John 1:29 the Lamb of God bears the sin of the world
1 John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our and for all the world's sins
John 3:16-17 God loved the world and sent his son into the world that the world might live by means of him
John 6:33 Jesus gives life to the world
John 8:12 Jesus is the light of the world
John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
Romans 11:15, 32, 36 Reconciliation of the world
John 6:37 all that the Father gave Jesus will come to Jesus
John 6:39 whatever the Father gave Jesus, Jesus will lose nobody, but raise them up
John 3:35 All has been given into His hand
John 17:2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him
John 13:3 The Father gave Him all things
Hebrews 1:1-2 Jesus is heir of all things
Ephesians 2:4-10 when we were dead in our sins, God gave us life in Christ; we are God's, created in Jesus Christ for doing good works; His grace shown in the ages to come
Romans 8:38-39 nothing can sever us from God's love
Psalms 72:18 God only does wondrous things
What Pleases God?
1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ("will have" in some translations) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time..."
I John 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.
John 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent me, that of all He has given me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day.
More handouts:
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/podbayfm/listen_to_episodes_of_heal_the_sick_podcast_on_podbay/
I love this site and discussion forum for bringing forth great posts like these! Thank you! :dsunny:
Amen! :iagree: It's an excellent summary!
:thumbsup:
'if the blood of Jesus paid for everyone's sins, even peadophile popes are not sinners, because Jesus paid for the sins of future murderers, peadophiles, rapists, etc.'
Jesus' death and resurrection paid for everybody's physical healing (and sins), but only a tiny fraction of sick, diseased, hurting people (and sinners) have taken advantage of that payment. It's like if you have a million dollars in the bank, but you're ignorant of that and continue to live in poverty.
Isaiah 53 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+53&version=NKJV
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
1 Peter 2:23-25 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Peter+2:23-25&version=NKJV
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness-- by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
it doesn't matter..it is stored up for them in heaven..where robbers andthieves can't touch it.While on earth robbers and thieves may
have broken intohis house and bound him in hard bondage to sin temporally..but he will enter into his inheritance. :2c:
:2c: sin has it's compulsions[forces]in Christ there is freedom.. :girlheart:
Quote from: sheila on February 20, 2019, 03:36:21 PMit doesn't matter..it is stored up for them in heaven..where robbers and thieves can't touch it.While on earth robbers and thieves may have broken into his house and bound him in hard bondage to sin temporally..but he will enter into his inheritance.
Sounds good to me.
another person: "Compare the 2 verses I posted, and tell me, do you see contradiction?? Contradiction is a human error." I agree that there's conflict between Ezekiel 18:19-20 and Exodus 20:5-6. The Old Testament contains progressive revelation about the nature of God. Some ideas about God, e.g. that God prompted King David to sin by taking a census, turned out to be incorrect or incomplete understandings. Jesus is the definitive revelation of the nature of God; every Old Testament passage about God must be viewed through the lens of Jesus, who was God in an earth-suit.
A nice essay on the development of biblical understanding about the conception of the afterlife and God is
_Immortality: The Drew Lecture: Delivered October 11, 1912_ by Robert Henry Charles (Oxford: Clarendon Press), 38pp.
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
an extract of which is at
R.H. Charles: bring eschatology into harmony w/ Xtian theology of God
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and-punishment/r-h-charles-bring-eschatology-into-harmony-w-xtian-theology-of-god/
A father's sins get passed down to future generations (and often to far more than just 4 generations) because the father's sins invite demons, which can influence not just him, but others in his family, and when he dies, the demons that were influencing him seek to continue influencing other members of his family, down through the generations. For example, men involved in Freemasonry call down horrible curses on themselves, which often bring much pain and suffering to their descendents for generations.
:2c: familiar[family of liar] spirits..yep...these are set to devour subsequent children born in the family as soon as they part the womb..
or even yet,while in the womb. :girlheart:
:2c: another thing I would like to discuss,that some may not understand..and stumble over is this..the extent of the CHANGE
of the new creature of such former ones.We will certainly not know them as a man any longer..much less a former pedophile,gay,murderer
Judas,Ahab,Jezebel,Hitler...etc. The new CREATURE shall not be ashamed! :girlheart:
:2c: the new Creature is given a new ID a new name,face..and will deny their former selves.The former things will NOT be remembered.
Luke9;23....... :girlheart:
Amen, ultimately all saved, all reconciled, and all no longer ashamed.. no longer beastly, as King Nebuchadnezzar was for 7 times.. then brought back to his senses.. the prodigal ("all") mankind welcomed, loved.. have a banquet (Rev 21:1-5) ..bring out the best robe!
But, the other side of the coin.. "the smoke (memory/lesson) of babble on (and on's) destruction will rise up forever and ever..
...they shall look upon the dead bodies and abhor..
Paul wrote "so it will be known how horrible sin (missing the mark, imperfection) really is.."
The unavoidable lesson of good from evil.. Two paths.. path, or way, of life and the path/way of death.. the wages of sin..
..paid for all (the lamb). But the lesson - you cannot take the way of death. It can never work, but one can only "perish"! ..so soul, you are not immortal on your own, so don't do it.. logic engraved upon the forehead. The lesson - lion of Juda? ..other side of the coin.. harsh reality, the iron (measuring) rod (ruler) that truth cannot be broken, but breaks...
"The former things - tendency to sin, err - imperfection - shall no longer come to mind.. Neither shall they rise in the heart." ..."It is finished."
:Peace2: :girlheart:
amen,Marie Job41;8..if you lay a hand on him you will remember the struggle and never do it again!God'swork[job] He is doing
in man through this expierenceof evilwe are suffering..yes,a little evil has spoiled much good. :girlheart:
Quote from: sheila on February 20, 2019, 04:27:41 PMthe new Creature is given a new ID a new name,face..and will deny their former selves.The former things will NOT be remembered
Supposedly people in heaven are recognizable by the way they looked on earth when young. If redeemed sinners in heaven don't remember how God rescued them from their errant ways, then God can't be praised in heaven for rescuing them.
someone else: "why is it important to believe in Jesus in this age, when everyone will believe after judgement?" There are people currently hell who are suffering tremendously. If they'd turned their lives over to Jesus while they were living on earth, they wouldn't be in hell now.
:2c:well...it didn't stop the angels in heaven from praising Him..the children of the resurrection are like the angels. :girlheart:
Always choose the good that the perfect and compete will come to you /us :HeartThrob: praise GOD in all things for His goodness and mercy and love your enemies do good to all , worthy or not worthy of your time and help.
GOD SEES AND KNOWS everything in our hearts being purified by His presence .
make the tree good and the fruits of the Holy Spirit , where every good thing from God comes from HIS WORD .
Matt 12 Good and Bad Fruit in the tree of knowledge of good and evil that we all eat of first . now choose the good and the perfect and complete will come to us and eat of the tree of Life .
32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come. [both in that age / tree /law ]
33Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks....
we reap what we sow , good or bad , the fruits makes it known to all.......
ONLY GOD IS GOOD AND PERFECT and we have to make God first in in our lives and LOVE HIM first and foremost , like He loved us first while we are yet sinners in order for this to happen .
the name of God is blasphemed all the day long
Isaiah 52
...4For this is what the Lord GOD says: "At first My people went down to Egypt to live, then Assyria oppressed them without cause.
5And now what have I here? declares the LORD. For My people have been taken without cause; those who rule them taunt, declares the LORD, and My name is blasphemed all day long.
6Therefore My people will know My name; therefore they will know on that day that I am He who speaks. Here I am!"...
2 peter 2
Deliverance from False Prophets
1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.
They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed.
3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words.
The longstanding verdict against them remains in force, and their destruction does not sleep....
GOD is making HIS SON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST the savior of the WHOLE WORLD !
but the world will suffer great things by opposing HIM , in order to know GODS NAME in the earth , suffer at the hands of evil ones from the Evil One
remember the Lords prayer Matt 6
...12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'
14For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you....
The Lord WILL lead us away from temptation [a way of escape ] or allow us to be led by the evil one into temptation. the narrow path that leads to Life is us taking up our cross and following Jesus where ever He goes .
HE COMES TO SAVE THE WORLD and not destroy it .
Our hope is in GOD only by the Lord Jesus Christ making the paths straight and narrow , not the broad path that leads to destruction it is not Gods will that any should perish , but have the abundant Life now , or he could of let us all live in fear of death , till we literally die , we are more than flesh and blood that never ever was set to inherit anything but death in the first place , We can LIVE in the Spirit now and Live now in the Spirit of Life , GOD made a way even now and all will know this in the end ... All will LIVE BECAUSE OF HIM
John 6 56 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him.
57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your forefathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever."...
they will never die because they have already passed from the death to life and the dead will live because of Him , death is the last enemy to overcome in Christ , everyone will know from the least to the greatest because of HIM , Even the ones whom pierced Him though the heart .
Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world from the very foundation of it being made for Gods glory and power to be made known to all in the end ..
"God never lies nor does His Word"
Do you think these remarks by Jesus are accurate/correct?:
John 3:14 (KJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up: ....
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men unto me.
======================================
IMO, early on, God made angels, so the hierarchy was God, angels. Then God made humans, and the hierarchy was God, humans, angels. Then Adam and Eve sinned, so the hierarchy became God, angels, humans. Then the 2nd Adam i.e. Jesus made the right decisions, and established his kingdom which is ever-expanding, and undid in the spiritual realm what the 1st Adam had done, so the hierarchy is once again God, humans, angels. God is crushing the devil under our feet.
Quote from: DavidFord on May 15, 2019, 04:08:58 AM
"God never lies nor does His Word"
Do you think these remarks by Jesus are accurate/correct?:
John 3:14 (KJV) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up: ....
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men unto me.
Yes I do , but not in the way most think or more so not think of past the two sentences ....
Why do you think Jesus said , Be as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove ?
a serpent is a symbol of wisdom .. and most never get past the worldly wisdom [bound by it ] death part .
the pattern was a shadow of the good things to come . being Jesus Christ ON THE CROSS
same as seeing a fiery serpent , Jesus come to bring the Holy Spirit & fire as a deep cleansing and healing purpose , and live a pure life .
And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live."
But consider how hard that would be to do here in the temporal realm in your own mind ? born with
[carnal minded =death ]
mind of Christ =life
new mind new life , born again new .
Knowing all things is able to know the worldly wisdom as vain and worthless[only works in the temporary] as mankind is deceived by it
as the wisdom of Gods purpose is being made known by the revealing ,the cure , Jesus Christ in healing and making whole what was broken and scattered and burned [hurt] . . by the lies [worldly wisdom ] as the serpents bite and devour one another in Babylons wisdom . mixing both together and causing chaos and confusion with lies and truth , good and evil , pure and vile , two laws etc ... one for extinction the other for Glory .
God /Jesus Christ does the separating/division [Luke 12;49-54 ]
death has an end and is the last enemy , to be swallowed up in life . all forms of hurt and death and the concept word hell that has stumbled and bound and paralyzed so many by fear and its torment to enter on past it .
They did not love their lives unto death , what a sentence to ponder huh?
To me the word hell and love are the two most misunderstood and abused words of the bible and almost impossible to explain to anyone , it will take the HOLY SPIRIT to teach us deeply . when God is willing to do so , in my opinion
Some on this side and others when they cross over , it was always about the cross
This is why Paul said , I do not want to know anything but Jesus Christ and him crucified , Paul was saying he was leaving death behind him and was ALIVE in and though and by the Lord Jesus Christ revealing Himself to Paul though revelation a surprising and previously unknown fact, especially one that is made known in a dramatic way. a waking up and rising up out of the sleep of death[bound ] totally . a real life bonafied resurrection , another concept bareilly understood in a human mind , in my own opinion , I surly never knew .
adjective. made, done, presented, etc., in good faith; without deception or fraud: a bona fide statement of intent to sell. authentic; true: a bona fide truth .
:2c:
Quote from: DavidFord on February 20, 2019, 09:59:05 PM
Quote from: sheila on February 20, 2019, 04:27:41 PMthe new Creature is given a new ID a new name,face..and will deny their former selves.The former things will NOT be remembered
Supposedly people in heaven are recognizable by the way they looked on earth when young. If redeemed sinners in heaven don't remember how God rescued them from their errant ways, then God can't be praised in heaven for rescuing them.
someone else: "why is it important to believe in Jesus in this age, when everyone will believe after judgement?" There are people currently hell who are suffering tremendously. If they'd turned their lives over to Jesus while they were living on earth, they wouldn't be in hell now.
But God chooses when a person believes.
Inherent immortality / immortal soul is the BIGGEST foundation and support of the hell/hades myth. :doh:
Alas unfortunately all of us have carnal mindedness and it clings to what it's been taught and to our own fancies.. So it takes a while for the "washing of the Word" to do its work.. myself included of course!
"God is Love" - hell is not love.
Letting mankind experience their own doings, is. (Love)
This world, including churches and doctrines is covered with lies, like a wet heavy quilt set low in the atmosphere. Confusion. Ultimately we can't have the two foreheads - His Seal, and Mystery Babble. But if we keep reading the Bible, and sincerely and consistently submitting our self directly to Him.. myths of man and devils will fade away from our consciousness, the veil gets thinner.. (Til voila! the forehead is sealed!? I have to think, blessing of blessings!)
And it, and our other flawed ways will, in His kingdom, hopefully for all believers, in the millennium - will no longer come to mind.. :banana: God is good. May we read His Word like innocent children.. not attaching legend or seeing through the glasses of the world's myths of wisdom or knowledge so called.
By translators using the word hades, the adversary was successfully able to inject hell into the scripture - instead of using a word for bury or grave - which is what originally, and OT based, sheol was.
Ps.30:9 "what profit is there in my blood when I go DOWN TO THE PIT? will the DUST praise Thee?"
Isaiah 14:9,11 (KJ) says - "HELL from BENEATH is moved to meet thee (O ruler/king)..thy pomp brought down..the worm is spread under thee, and worms cover thee."
"The SOUL that sins shall die" - "The wages of sin is..?" "BUT GOD so
loved He sent His only Son so that whoever believes in Him, will not ..?"
Sorry to use caps, I'm on this little tablet in the sunny outdoors.. lol.
God bless you, David, have a GREAT day :gsmile:
P.S. - "...the worm is spread under thee, and worms cover thee.." ! oh no ! not only is God burning ppl alive.. but there are squirming worms all over them! For ever and ever (or even temorarily!).. :mshock: :faint: ...and some of them were never even warned.. never heard of God of the bible.. oh well. God is good and at least we'll always have a ready fire to roast marshmallows as we forever sing and dance for joy atop their writhing in hot burning flames..
"God is love" and "love never fails" - 1 Jn.4:8 and 1 Cor.13:8
Scratching head.. why were the flames (tongues) of fire so vastly different on Day of Pentecost? (Acts 2) For those HE chose to believe / whom HE gave the gift of faith to, as opposed to those poor sods HE didn't choose to give the gift to (during this brief life)?
"HE alone is immortal.." 1 Tim.1:16?
Quote from: marie glen on May 15, 2019, 05:26:32 PMat least we'll always have a ready fire to roast marshmallows as we forever sing and dance for joy atop their writhing in hot burning flames
There is a hell. Many people are there right now, with new arrivals hourly. But in the end, our good Father will get back all his lost sheep/ lost coins/ prodigals.
I find Bryan Melvin's frightening account of his trip to hell credible, and he noticed new arrivals coming regularly. I consider credible Sadhu Sundar Singh's accounts of what he learned from viewing the supernatural and from conversing with members of 'the great cloud of witnesses,' and he noted that when people die, after a while, they eventually end up in one of the hellish regions or one of the heavenly regions.
I've never given birth; I'm dependant on hearing others' experiences of giving birth for information about what it's like. I've never been in a concentration camp; I'm dependant on hearing others' experiences of being in a concentration camp for information about what it's like. I've never been to hell; I'm dependant on hearing others' experiences of being in or observing hell for information about what it's like.
Visions of the Spiritual World by Sadhu Sundar Singh (1926)
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
Once in the course of a conversation the
saints gave me this information: "After
death the soul of every human being will
enter the world of spirits, and every one,
according to the stage of his spiritual growth,
will dwell with spirits like in mind and in
nature to himself, either in the darkness or in
the light of glory...."
After this conversation these saints conducted
me round and showed me many wonderful
things and places.
I saw that from all sides thousands upon
thousands of souls were constantly arriving
in the world of spirits, and that all were
attended by angels. The souls of the good
had with them only angels and good spirits,
who had conducted them from their death-
beds. Evil spirits were not allowed to come
near to them, but stood far off and watched.
I saw also that there were no good spirits
with the souls of the really wicked, but about
them were evil spirits, who had come with
them from their death-beds.... The evil spirits
almost immediately led these souls away
towards the darkness; for when in the flesh
they had consistently allowed evil spirits to
influence them for evil, and had willingly
permitted themselves to be enticed to all
kinds of wickedness. For the angels in no
way interfere with the free will of any soul.
I saw there, also, many souls who had lately
come into the world of spirits, who were
attended by both good and evil spirits, as
well as by angels. But before long the
radical difference of their lives began to
assert itself, and they separated themselves —
the good in character towards the good, and
the evil towards the evil. ....
Sons of Darkness
How different from these are the souls of
those whose lives have been evil. Ill at ease
in the company of the Sons of Light, and
tormented by the all-revealing light of Glory,
they struggle to hide themselves in places
where their impure and sin-stained natures
will not be seen. From the lowest and
darkest part of the world of spirits a black
and evil-smelling smoke arises, and in their
effort to hide themselves from the light, these
Sons of Darkness rush down, and cast
themselves headlong into it, and from it their
bitter wails of remorse and anguish are heard
constantly to arise. But heaven is so arranged
that the smoke is not seen, nor are the wails
of anguish heard, by the spirits in heaven,
unless any of them for some special reason
should wish to see the evil plight of those
souls in darkness.
Quote from: marie glen on May 15, 2019, 05:15:30 PM
"God is Love" - hell is not love.
Letting mankind experience their own doings, is. (Love)
In Melvin's account of his trip to hell, he saw people experiencing the ugliness they themselves had done to others while living on earth.
Never-ending torture in hell isn't love. Lengthy and painful-- but finite-- torment in hell, that leads to sinners seeing the error of their ways and concludes with their being restored by their loving Father, could very well be love.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 01, 2019, 05:38:13 AM
Quote from: marie glen on May 15, 2019, 05:15:30 PM
"God is Love" - hell is not love.
Letting mankind experience their own doings, is. (Love)
In Melvin's account of his trip to hell, he saw people experiencing the ugliness they themselves had done to others while living on earth.
Never-ending torture in hell isn't love. Lengthy and painful-- but finite-- torment in hell, that leads to sinners seeing the error of their ways and concludes with their being restored by their loving Father, could very well be love.
I watched an atheist on you tube video years ago and never forgot it .
He was experiencing a horrible torment in an out of the body encounter , while literally and physically dead .
I have to admit this made an impression on me , he was shown the depths of hell and also wonder about his perception of just what he was experiencing , I know it did make him a believer , and maybe that is what it took for him to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ because JESUS reached down with a powerful arm and pulled him out when He called on the Lord with complete and absolute faith he mustered up from somewhere within himself .
He was no longer an atheist after that , he was so humbled by it all ,I actually cried with him in that moment and understood that sometimes the stubbornness of evil spirits ruling can and do cause us to be led astray .
But Jesus is never far away from any of us , we do learn obedience though the things we suffer and sometimes suffering is the only way we do learn obedience and surrender .
I am convinced we get to experience both love and pain and most certainly loss. We have an inner man and outer man existence , what we see is not always what is .
This fairly young man in his late 2o's returned to his natural body but had changed him in a spiritual nature .
I believe it is impossible to judge everyone a certain way , because God deals with each and every one of us according to His own Wisdom .
We learn to trust in Gods Wisdom as a perfect and complete work from the beginning to end when we have the UR [JESUS is the LORD OF ALL ,the dead and the living ] faith and that is GOD cannot be tempted as we are tempted and HIS perfect Love cannot fail any one of us , no matter how many opposing forces tries to halt it . the truth will prevail ... Here Jesus shows us
Matt 20 15 Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?' 16So the last will be first, and the first will be last." ..........
Saying this because He died for the whole world and was raised up in power to give Life to whom ever and when ever He pleases . Everyone dead will hear His Voice and live eventually . for me I take great comfort in believing that .
Two verses have made any and all tiny dregs of 'hell' to totally evaporate from my heart, mind and psyche. :gsmile:
2 Peter 2:9 "God knows how to preserve the unjust for correction/kolasis on day" (age?) "of judgment."
And how Jesus said, "All in the tombs" (graves) "will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of the tombs/graves) "..some to the resurrection of life" - at Jesus' return/appearing at the end of this present age - "and some in the resurrection of judgment" - "after the thousand years" (see Rev.20). [Two ages following this one? (imo, lol) -1- the millennium/"thousand years" and -2- "the judgment".
Then there's this about the LOF (lake of fire) - link pending, lol..
oye! I forgot to post the link! But this one isn’t too bad.. https://revelationofjesus.net/en/other-important-questions/nuclear-war-predicted-in-revelation/ - I didn’t read any other pages on the site..
& this one - https://endtimestruth.com/world-war-iii/nuclear-war-great-tribulation/
Quote from: rosered on September 01, 2019, 05:19:16 PM
Everyone dead will hear His Voice and live eventually . for me I take great comfort in believing that
Me too.
Amen.. Two things I wanted to mention.. Hubby today looking at a calendar says WHAT IS YOM KIPPER? (No I don't teach family members a whole lot. Oye.) So I told him and my daughter who wanted to know too.. Not that I kept their attention for very long at all.. So I told them it's Day Of Atonement.. and how I talk a lot about Day Of Atonement, that Day Of Atonement - the three words - are a summary of the WHOLE bible.
Of course I don't think they heard me.. (Not sure any one in the wide world does.)
I didn't tell them how I've proven Universal Reconciliation beyond doubt. :laughing7:
By knowing "what's called today" is our Day Of Atonement. And 'day'/age of "the Judgment" is Day Of Atonement (Reconciliation, etc.. salted with fire, etc) for ALL the rest of God's children.
How do I think I know that? By things Jesus said would occur at "the judgment" (which via Rev. 20, clearly follows the millennium/"thousand years".. being the 2 ages which make up Jesus' long second advent. (Confirmation sometimes is the continued building upon what He's teaching. These things about Day Of Atonement and the 2nd advent are a long series of scripture insights.. like pearls strung together, each one leading to the same truth.
Like bible prophecy that seems to remain a huge mystery to so many.. I can't understand why others cannot see that Day Of Judgment (kolasis!) IS Day Of Atonement.
How can it be any clearer? How His so short first advent perfectly fulfilled the Spring Holy Days, right down to the pattern(!) but that pattern is hard to see what with Spring Holy Week having 3 Sabbaths and First Day Of Unleavened Bread is/was sometimes called Passover, and vice versa.
So it seems highly logical (logic from logos, the words) that the Fall Holy Days (Lev.23) priphecy in detail His long 2nd advent. And the 3 peaks of.
Trumpets - 10 days/1000years later - Day Of Atonement - 5 days later -Tabernacles —> Rev.21:1-4 KJV! I guess I have to write a bookand become famous so it doesn't remain hidden? just kidding. :gsmile:
Now I forgot my second point I wantedtomention. Typos will have to wait.. gotta run. Hope this post isn't too riddled with typos.
2 Pet.2:9 - "God knows how to preserve the unjust for correction on Day of Judgment." Considering it not as metaphor/all about moi.
Key word Correction. Yhvh NEVER ever "misses the mark"! :gsmile: And i believe He is HIGHLY organized. (Seal 5 being like the blood of Abel. JN.5:28-29)
Quote from: DavidFord on September 02, 2019, 02:31:29 AM
Quote from: rosered on September 01, 2019, 05:19:16 PM
Everyone dead will hear His Voice and live eventually . for me I take great comfort in believing that
Me too.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: marie glen on September 02, 2019, 06:51:49 PM
Like bible prophecy that seems to remain a huge mystery to so many.. I can't understand why others cannot see that Day Of Judgment (kolasis!) IS Day Of Atonement.
I just had to comment on this statement by you ... FULLY AGREE...
A Day of Judgment is the day that the verdict is read and that sentence is pronounced, and the reason it is God's Day of Atonement is because ... His verdict is: you have been forgiven of your sins, therefore there is no sentence.
Man can't see past the guilty verdict that comes through the law, we know we are all guilty, but to see beyond the veil into Grace is to see that we have been forgiven.
God does not do away with the law, He does away with any condemnation that comes through the law, in other words, He did away with death that came through the law, He did away with the wages of sin.
:thumbsup: :banana: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jugghead on September 03, 2019, 12:20:43 AM
Quote from: marie glen on September 02, 2019, 06:51:49 PM
Like bible prophecy that seems to remain a huge mystery to so many.. I can’t understand why others cannot see that Day Of Judgment (kolasis!) IS Day Of Atonement.
I just had to comment on this statement by you … FULLY AGREE...
A Day of Judgment is the day that the verdict is read and that sentence is pronounced, and the reason it is God's Day of Atonement is because … His verdict is: you have been forgiven of your sins, therefore there is no sentence.
Man can't see past the guilty verdict that comes through the law, we know we are all guilty, but to see beyond the veil into Grace is to see that we have been forgiven.
God does not do away with the law, He does away with any condemnation that comes through the law, in other words, He did away with death that came through the law, He did away with the wages of sin.
:thumbsup: :banana: :HeartThrob:
Amen! And that's why I believe the rest of His children's repentance shall be worked out just like with those who are given the gift of faith during this brief life. Our day of atonement now, and I agree, theirs during "the judgment" Jesus talked about. / the one Jesus talked about. Selah.. Not in most(?) cases an instant repentance, and surely not in any instant, being born again, without their being involved.. Because we learn so much in this whole process.. of repenting, being born again, and that "
seed, Jesus" takes root.. grows, matures and bears fruit. It's all about the fruit! grain, fruit, harvest, wheat.. Last verse of Hebrews 8, I think it is, says the Old Testament believers were/are "not perfected before us".. In God's Word there's a harvest. [1 Cor.15:22-28! the list of THREE resurrections - counting first - Jesus'.] And of course the Holy Spirit through Paul tells us we are not yet perfect(ed). Not until at His return/appearance.
I figure God IS life, itself.. And He "is perfect" (Mt.5:48). So I have to think, what does that make imperfection? [Missing the mark -- translated sin, transgression, or crime - If He is, life and perfect. What does that make imperfect?]
Translators love the most possible extreme I think! And to outright run with verses! ..Sometimes adding 'forever' in verses which originally have no time word in them at all. Strange, to say the least. Perceptions, preconceived ideas color human translation, which influences others perceptions! But mostly it's just two,
companion doctrines which have colored the "Good News To ALL".
One is almost like a shadow.. goes kind of unseen.. but keeps dregs of hell in the psyche/outlook/words.. keeps things kind of obscure, confusing, not as easy to be heard/believe? I don't believe in any temporary hell. Or some sort of holding cell. And I know ppl do not come forth out of the graves/tombs until they are resurrected by God's voice in one of two resurrections - meaning collective events, not each person with their own resurrection and judgment day. That's all pagan. If only those so concerned about days.. Sabbaths and diet would be able to hear that!
Am I ranting? ...I think I'm ranting. :doh: Good, I feel better now! :laughing7:
Lamentations 3:31-32 English Standard Version (ESV)
31
For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32
but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
David Ford's post translated - but is the thread original post..
Universal restoration and fate of the wicked
a modified Tentmaker.com document
Twentieth-century Christians have three main visions of the wicked:
The majority view: eternal torture
The minority vision: annihilation or eternal death
The view of the rest: The eventual salvation through Jesus Christ
The eternal vision of torture is that of the majority for about fifteen hundred years in the West. The main scriptures used to support this view are:
Matthew 25: 31-46
Mark 9: 42-48
Luke 16: 19-31
Matthew 12: 24-37
John 3: 35-36, 5: 24-29
Revelation 19: 19-21
Revelation 20: 7-10
Revelation 20: 11-15
The vision of annihilation is the minority vision since the beginning of the writings of the church after the apostles' disappearance. Many of the oldest Christian writings have taught this point of view. Some scriptures used to support this view are:
2 Thessalonians 1: 7-10
John 3:16
Jude 1: 7
1 Timothy 6: 9
Jeremiah 51:39, 57
Malachi 1: 4, 3: 19-21
Obadiah 1: 15-16
Matthew 10:28
Hebrews 10:39
Revelation 20: 11-15
This may shock most Christians today, but what remains in the West today is the majority view of the first five hundred years of Christianity. In fact, of the six theological schools that we know existed between the second and fourth centuries, four of them believed in the salvation of all mankind, only one taught annihilation and only one taught eternal torture, the School of Rome ... see _The Gates of Heaven: Wider than you ever thought! _ by George W. Sarris. For a brief history of how this reversal of doctrines occurred, see the article entitled The Vision of Salvation by Early Christians. The doctrine of eternal torture only became popular in the West in the fifth century, when Augustine began to push it. The majority view of the early church remains to this day Eastern Orthodox understanding:
Orthodox view of salvation - Steve Robinson
https://youtu.be/WosgwLekgn8
Brad Jersak - The Gospel in a Chair
https://youtu.be/D0BUFR9wSko
Most Christians, when told that their doctrines do not agree with the views of the majority of early Christians, do not believe it. They are so sure that the Bible does not contradict itself and that their beliefs are based on the Bible. Those who are majority and minority have often memorized the scriptures that corroborate their position. Evangelists always use them when they wake up to scare people into their church.
Below is a list of scriptures used to support the idea that all humanity will be saved. Do they contradict the beliefs you currently have? If they do, does the Bible contradict itself? And if not, is it possible that the majority of the current church is wrong?
1 Timothy 2: 4 God wants all to be saved
Psalms 135: 6 God does what he pleases
Isaiah 46:10 God will make all his pleasure
John 8:29 Jesus always does what his father likes
Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of his will
2 Peter 3: 9 God does not want anyone to perish, but to come to repentance
Daniel 4:35 The will of God made in heaven and earth
Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save as much as possible
Proverbs 16: 9 Man conceives, God directs his steps
Proverbs 19:21 Man conceives, but God's counsel is valid
Psalms 33:15 God shapes all hearts
Deuteronomy 32:39 God kills and makes alive
Psalms 90: 3 God turns man into destruction and then says "return"
Lamentations 3: 31,32 God will not reject forever
James 5:11 The end of the Lord is full of mercy
1 Timothy 2: 6 The salvation of all is attested in due time
1 Tim 4:10 God is the giver of the life of all people-- esp. believers
John 12:47 Jesus came to save all
I Timothy 4: 9-11 Jesus is the Savior of all
John 12:32 Jesus draws everything to him
Colossians 1:20 All reconciled to God
Romans 5: 15-21 In Adam, all the condemned, in Christ, all live
1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ live all
Ephesians 1: 9-10 All rejuvenated in Jesus to the fullness of time
Romans 11:36 All out of God, through him and in him
Revelation 21: 4-5 No more tears, everything is new
Ephesians 1: 22-23 all things submitted under the feet of Jesus
Philippians 3:21 everything is subject to Jesus
Psalms 66: 3-4 Enemies will submit to God
1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death will be destroyed;
Rev 20:14 death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire
Isaiah 25: 8 He will swallow death in Victory
Philippians 2: 9-11 (from Aramaic, dukhrana.com) Every language will confess that Jesus is of Master Yah (1 John 2:22)
1 Cor 12: 3 Can only confess by the Holy Ghost
Acts 2: 16-18 The Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh
II Corinthians 5:17 Whoever is in Christ is a new creation.
Ephesians 1:10 In the fullness of time, God will gather all things in Christ, both in heaven and on earth.
Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
1 Corinthians 15:22, 24-28 God will be all in all
Revelation 5:13 All creation seen praising God
Colossians 1:16 all things were created for him
Romans 8: 19-21 The Creation Released
Romans 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy to all
Isaiah 45:23 All the descendants of Israel justified
Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Ezekiel 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Isaiah 19: 14-25 Egypt and Assyria will be restored
Acts 3: 20-21 Restoration of all
Psalm 138: 4 All kings will praise God
Isaiah 25: 7 will destroy the veil that spans all nations
Psalms 86: 9 All nations will worship God
Isaiah 2: 2 All nations will flow into the house of the Lord (Micah 4: 1-7)
Revelation 15: 4 All nations bow down before judgments
II Corinthians 5:15, 19 Jesus died for all
Psalms 22: 25-29 All will turn to the Lord, and all the families will bow down to him.
Hebrews 8: 11-12 All will know God
Titus 2:11 Grace appeared to all
1 Corinthians 4: 5 All will praise God
Psalms 145: 9-10 He is good to all and merciful to all his works.
Psalms 145: 14 God raises all who fall
Psalms 65: 2-4 All flesh will come to God
Psalms 145: 10 All the will of God to praise Him
Isaiah 25: 6 Lord makes a feast for all peoples
Luke 2:10 Jesus will make everyone happy
Luke 3: 6 All flesh will see the life that is of God (see Isaiah 40: 5)
1 Corinthians 3:15 All saved, therefore by fire
John 1: 9 Jesus enlightens everyone who comes into the world
John 1:29 the Lamb of God bears the sin of the world
1 John 2: 2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for all the sins of the world
John 3: 16-17 God loved the world and sent his son into the world for the world to live through him.
John 6:33 Jesus gives life to the world
John 8:12 Jesus is the light of the world
John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
Romans 11:15, 32, 36 Reconciliation of the world
John 6:37 All that the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus
John 6:39 All that the Father has given to Jesus, Jesus will not lose anyone, but raise him
John 3:35 Everything has been put into his hands.
John 17: 2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom his Father gives him
John 13: 3 The Father has given him everything
Hebrews 1: 1-2 Jesus is the heir of all things
Ephesians 2: 4-10 When we were dead in our sins, God gave us life in Christ. we are God's, created in Jesus Christ to do good works; His grace manifested in the ages to come
Romans 8: 38-39 nothing can separate us from the love of God
Psalms 72:18 God only does wonderful things
What pleases God?
1 Timothy 2: 3-6 It is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wills ("shall have in certain translations) that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God and a single mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself a ransom for all, so that he may be witnessed in due time ... "
I John 4:14 We have seen and testified that the Father sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has put everything into his hands.
John 6:39 It is the will of the Father who sent me, of all that he gave me, I should lose nothing, I will raise him up at the last day.
i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough, it loses its impact on them....tsk tsk....words fail me
Quote from: darryl on October 28, 2019, 01:20:34 PM
i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough, it loses its impact on them....tsk tsk....words fail me
That doctrine/fear acts as a trap.
Because Scripture is without flaw, claiming it doesn't state ECT is calling God a liar. That's a one way ticket to ECT.
So even studying beyond the ECT doctrine is blasphemy and not done.
Quote from: darryl on October 28, 2019, 01:20:34 PM
i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough, it loses its impact on them....tsk tsk....words fail me
A-men! To that!!
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2019, 07:49:02 PM
That doctrine/fear acts as a trap.
Because Scripture is without flaw, claiming it doesn't state ECT is calling God a liar. That's a one way ticket to ECT.
So even studying beyond the ECT doctrine is blasphemy and not done.
Amen! Why is it SO hard for folks to understand that human translators are NOT infallible.. Of course church goers, etc are not going to listen to CU/UR if they think it goes against the Word. Ahhh, the joy of KNOWING God’s Word IS and is FULL of UR/CU! Both straight out.. 77 verses listed here at Tentmaker forum, and there’s even more straight out UR verses we likely can all think of.. and how there is very much IMPLIED ur/cu! Shocking it remains missed.. I hope it’s not because a little leaven (i mean here untruth) leavens the whole UR lump! When Truth (God’s Logos/God’s “reasoning expressed in words” shines like gold and silver!
:thumbsup: :gsmile:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2019, 07:49:02 PM
Quote from: darryl on October 28, 2019, 01:20:34 PM
i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough, it loses its impact on them....tsk tsk....words fail me
That doctrine/fear acts as a trap.
Because Scripture is without flaw, claiming it doesn't state ECT is calling God a liar. That's a one way ticket to ECT.
So even studying beyond the ECT doctrine is blasphemy and not done.
:iagree:
What I myself believe is. that doctrine is a door they cannot go through, on one side is law and on the other is grace, and as long as they believe the law that the heart of man has made, "Do not open that door", they remain on the side of law not knowing the full potential of the Grace of God.
Jesus keeps knocking, but they are told not to answer the door and walk into and "in" Grace, they continue to walk in the darkness of the law because they are told it is a "Do not enter" sign rather than an "exit" sign, because the fullness of the light of "Grace for all mankind" is not allowed.
We need to exit the law where the unforgiving spirit dwells and makes his home and enter into Grace where the Forgiving Spirit dwells and makes His home
my :2c:
Amen. I used to feel ‘guilty’ for not seeking out a church. For folks in a good or even okay one and it’s a blessing, that’s awesome. But I tried, many years ago.. didn’t like it. Felt pressure.. could not relax and “rest in the Lord”. Found myself conforming or trying to. So I allowed myself the freedom to be a temple on my own.. to study on my own.. His voice is in the quietness. And it’s my belief He speaks the word and through His word. And it’s been a wonderful, joyous way, and peaceful. Tho not without being salted with fire and also my battles with the adversary... he/they DO NOT want anyone to know TRUTH. (But Revelation chapter 7 says in late days of this age there shall be a crowd from all nations too many to count who will have not one untrue thing on their lips.. thus not in our hearts.)
In no way do I feel guilty any more for allowing myself the freedom I needed - to be led by His Spirit, with no other teachers. I still study and read on my own. I’m very determined and pretty organized. Today is a day of many seeking truth.. on youtube.. in books.. on sites.. teachers teachers ..I often wish I could teach the teachers, lol.. but idk if anyone ever hears me.. (or us!) But I know He gives us the keys to the kingdom/truth. :smile:
p.s. - I think most believers even Christian Universalists are still missing some pieces to the puzzle which is truth. But have the most important piece of reality, UR/CU!! But some things still keep the presentation of what God is doing - what is the purpose and how is He doing it, and why, etc. is lacking.. I think of the truth with nothing but truth as meat all people can get their teeth into as the saying goes.. Sorry, I love some of those old sayings and cliches.
Quote from: marie glen on November 03, 2019, 04:13:04 AM
Amen. I used to feel 'guilty' for not seeking out a church. For folks in a good or even okay one and it's a blessing, that's awesome. But I tried, many years ago.. didn't like it. Felt pressure.. could not relax and "rest in the Lord". Found myself conforming or trying to. So I allowed myself the freedom to be a temple on my own.. to study on my own.. His voice is in the quietness. And it's my belief He speaks the word and through His word. And it's been a wonderful, joyous way, and peaceful. Tho not without being salted with fire and also my battles with the adversary... he/they DO NOT want anyone to know TRUTH. (But Revelation chapter 7 says in late days of this age there shall be a crowd from all nations too many to count who will have not one untrue thing on their lips.. thus not in our hearts.)
In no way do I feel guilty any more for allowing myself the freedom I needed - to be led by His Spirit, with no other teachers. I still study and read on my own. I'm very determined and pretty organized. Today is a day of many seeking truth.. on youtube.. in books.. on sites.. teachers teachers ..I often wish I could teach the teachers, lol.. but idk if anyone ever hears me.. (or us!) But I know He gives us the keys to the kingdom/truth. :smile:
p.s. - I think most believers even Christian Universalists are still missing some pieces to the puzzle which is truth. But have the most important piece of reality, UR/CU!! But some things still keep the presentation of what God is doing - what is the purpose and how is He doing it, and why, etc. is lacking.. I think of the truth with nothing but truth as meat all people can get their teeth into as the saying goes.. Sorry, I love some of those old sayings and cliches.
What I put in bold, reminds me of some lines from the third verse in a song by the Moody Blues. (I know you're out there somewhere) that says:
The words that I remember from my childhood still are true
that there's none so blind as those who will not see
and to those who lack the courage, say its dangerous to try
well they just don't know
that love eternal will not be deniedwhich I believe. what I bolded from the song, is just another way what Paul states in Romans 8:38-39
Amen JH :Peace2: ..and sounds like a great song.. I could almost hear it.. so maybe I've heard it before.. :gsmile:
You may remember my hubby was a semi truck driver.. always came home with more good music! :HeartThrob:
Music, to me, is a great evidence for God's existence.. and the smile.. babies, butterflies, lol.. The list is endless..
Quote from: marie glen on November 05, 2019, 02:39:40 PM
Amen JH :Peace2: ..and sounds like a great song.. I could almost hear it.. so maybe I've heard it before.. :gsmile:
You may remember my hubby was a semi truck driver.. always came home with more good music! :HeartThrob:
Music, to me, is a great evidence for God's existence.. and the smile.. babies, butterflies, lol.. The list is endless..
Couldn't agree more. because music stirs up emotions.
What I find incredible, which I believe comes from our heavenly Father, that when mere words stir up emotions, it is then His written word becomes music to our ears
Music is the result of thought and emotion flowing together as one
Amen! It's quite amazing! I also like it that music is numbers..
That people can sing.. and make music is amazing to me! Even clapping or banging out a rhythm, amazing. ...Imagine setting notes to paper! And in a sense what's happening is people are 'channelling' the music.. Think Stevie Ray Vaughn and any number..
Jugghead, the moody blues were one of my mom's favorite bands. I went to see them in concert with her. After she passed, I made a mix CD with her favorite songs and I included some of their songs. That connection is very meaningful for me right now, thanks.
Angela,
Your mom had great taste in music!(IMHO)
If you get a chance, there is a video recording of "This is your Life" on Youtube featuring Justin Hayward (Moody Blues guitarist, singer, wrote and sang many of the songs including Nights in White Satin and the song from which Rick quoted). Quite the gentleman, Justin Hayward. I also got to see them perform when they came to Anchorage in the mid '80s.
...still praying for healing from your loss.
Memories of quality time spent together is a light in our darkest hour
Quote from: GodIsLove on November 06, 2019, 12:28:49 AM
Jugghead, the moody blues were one of my mom's favorite bands. I went to see them in concert with her. After she passed, I made a mix CD with her favorite songs and I included some of their songs. That connection is very meaningful for me right now, thanks.
:HeartThrob:
Ephesians 4:5-7 (Disciples' Literal NT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:5-7&version=DLNT
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, the One over all and through all and in all; 7 and to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Luke 16 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/luke/16.htm
8 And the master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the sons of this age are more shrewd than the sons of the light in their own generation. 9 And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by the mammon of unrighteousness, that when it fails, they might receive you into the eternal dwellings.
"αἰώνιος means eternal"
How would you render Col 1:26?
Colossians 1:26 interlinear, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1-26.htm
the mystery the having been hidden from the
165/ aiōnōn/ αἰώνων
and from the generations now however having been manifested to the saints of Him
The translator of koine doesn't decide whether an adjective is singular or plural. Greek adjectives agree with the nouns they modify in number, gender, and case.
As for the Greek adjective αἰωνιος, it means neither everlasting or belonging to an age. Indeed the meaning has no temporal implications whatever.
The word was used in koine Greek to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning lasting or durable.
Josephus in The Wars of the Jews book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to αἰωνιος imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.
Jonathan's imprisonment was not everlasting. Neither did it belong to an age. But is was lasting. Although αἰωνιος can modify or describe that which is everlasting, it does not mean everlasting. Although αἰωνιος can modify or describe that which is temporary, it does not mean temporary. It means lasting, and I think you will find that that meaning fits all contexts wherever you find the word in Koine Greek.
"This IS zoe aionios, that we may know You..."
Quote from: FineLinen on August 16, 2020, 08:46:58 PMThe word was used in koine Greek to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning lasting or durable.
Josephus in The Wars of the Jews book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to αἰωνιος imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.
Jonathan's imprisonment was not everlasting. Neither did it belong to an age. But is was lasting.
The imprisonment lasted an age/period of time lasting 3 years.
another:
"what would an unholy man want in a holy world?"
Not much. Per Sadhu Sundar Singh, a thief would be uncomfortable in heaven, since his thievery would be clearly evident to everybody (besides being pointless).
Also, an unholy man would be uncomfortable in an unholy world, and that uncomfortableness move afterlife individuals in God's direction.
"There won't be any more opportunities when one dies. One has this life to decide"
Do you think every knee will bend the knee to Jesus? If 'yes,' will all that knee-bending occur in this life?
Do you think Jesus is a king who forces certain people to bend the knee to him against their will?
//////////////////////
"my people had a lifetime to accept the ferry offer of a loving God. The moment we die having refused his offer, God's Judicial nature engages and He makes no bones about sending us to Hell for eternity"
Is God loving toward deceased people that had refused his offer in their life on earth?
What exactly is the "offer of a loving God"? ('love me, or else I'll condemn you to a hellish realm for an infinite length of time'?)
Jesus is totally successful in his mission.
1 Timothy 1:15 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/1-15.htm
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance:
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--
of whom I am the worst.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-22.htm
For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 11:32 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/romans/11-32.htm
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
The Total Victory of Christ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjlJI2QlzpEpE_fnoCk0rKQ
1 Corinthians 15 (Pesh itta Holy Bible)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_corinthians/15.htm
20 But now The Messiah is risen from among the dead
and is the first fruits of those who sleep.
21 Just as by a man death came,
in this way also by a man the dead come to life.
22 For just as by Adam all people die,
in this way also by The Messiah they all live;
23 Each person in his order;
The Messiah was the first fruits;
after this, those who are The Messiah's at his arrival.
24 And then the end will come,
when he will deliver The Kingdom to God The Father,
when he will destroy every Ruler and every Authority and all Powers.
25 For he is going to reign
until all his enemies will be set under his feet,
26 And the last enemy death shall be destroyed.
27 For he brought all things to submission under his feet.
But when it says,
"All things are subjected to him",
it is understood that it excludes him who subjected all things to him.
28 And when all is subjected to him,
then the Son shall be subject to him
who subjected all things to him,
that God might be all in all.
=============================.
"Jesus and Christianity may be known to those in these dark places, his power and willingness to forgive"
Who has Jesus _not_ forgiven?
"Those that have not asked."
Is it OK for me to have unforgiveness toward those who have wronged me & haven't asked me to forgive them?
=============================.
"2 Peter 2: 4 ....the angels who sinned... into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment"
Do God's judgments:
serve a positive purpose(s)?
serve 0 positive purposes?
Hebrews 12:6 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-6.htm
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."
Revelation 3:19 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/revelation/3-19.htm
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline.
So be earnest and repent.
======================================.
"God has become man that man might become God"
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg216333#msg216333
Sadhu Sundar Singh on theosis
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15030.msg215532#msg215532
Gregory of Nyssa was a universalist
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15364.msg218329#msg218329
=====================================.
Do you disagree with any of this rewrite of some of your remarks?:
The 'gospel' is the good news that the Messiah (Anointed One-- One Anointed by God as humanity's High Priest, greatest Prophet, and supreme King/Lord/Master) came and disappeared all the acts of sin i.e. all the unloving thoughts, words, and deeds done by humanity. In the words of John the Baptiser, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."
Before humans arrived, God had a plan to reconcile sinners to Himself by way of a Messiah.
The wages of sin is death. God promised a Messiah who would save His people from their sins.
With the fall of Adam all became sinners. Because of the coming, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, all humans will have full, abundant life.
1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-22.htm
For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Timothy 4:10 (modified NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm
....we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior/Life-Giver of all people,
and especially of those who believe.
The Messiah came, died, rose again and now sits at the right hand of the Father, and also lives in the minds of his followers. His power is sufficient to give full, abundant life to every human that has ever lived and that will ever live.
When a person is convinced in her heart that she sinned and hears the good news (gospel) that Jesus is the Messiah who took away all her sins, her belief that Jesus took away her sins changes her mind and makes it turn from a) slavery to sin into b) submission to the King/Lord/Master and Savior/Life-Giver Jesus. This is the new birth wherein someone is born from Above/God. The mind changes: there is admission of sin (unloving thoughts, words, and deeds), repentance from i.e. turning away from unlovingness, and admission that there is a new Master in her life (not unlovingness, and not herself), the King/Lord/Master Jesus.
==========================================.
"Wrath of God taken by Jesus"
I find it hard to believe that:
God was angry toward Jesus;
God punished the sinless Jesus for sins committed by others.
"the problem you have is you have a newly created inner man incarcerated in the flesh"
_The Jesus Secret: Who I Am_ by Daniel Yordy (2007), 197pp.
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Secret-Who-Am/dp/147913208X/
On 114:
My Father has an absolute law that cannot be changed. Every living soul must receive what he or she believes. Some are still convinced that the "man of sin" is very much alive in them and must still be crucified. Pay no attention. How can evil live in the same Heart that I have made My Throne?
But I told you clearly that everything inside of you that God once hated, that needed to die, is DEAD. And I command you to believe it is so.
As you believe that you are really and truly free from sin and really and truly alive to God-- so shall you receive! The others? They also will achieve what they believe to be true.
Believing that My Cross is finished in you is as important as believing that I live in you.
Stand in My Grace.
==========================================.
"the Aprocrypha.... I don't accept those as part of the Canon"
How come not? They're in the LXX, Peshi tta Tanakh, and 1611 KJV.
"people closer to the times, versed in the original languages, etc., more brilliant and holier than myself made some choices. I am forced to trust someone, and that is who I have chosen to trust"
Which people?
Do you trust practitioners of 'rabbinic Judaism' who decided around the 800s that the 'deuterocanonical' books didn't belong in their Massoretic OT?
"You can't believe that God could be angry with sin?"
Anger at another's action isn't necessarily the same as anger at another individual.
I don't believe God was angry at Jesus.
Do you think God was angry at Jesus?
"Or that an innocent Lamb without blemish was used to pay/cover sin?"
I don't see how that ties into anger.
I don't see how killing a lamb can: pay for sin; cover sin.
"Was God angry with that poor little lamb that was killed, without blemish for atonement? Was God angry with the animal that he killed to cover Adam and Eve?"
No; no.
"Jesus was innocent, the lamb was innocent, Jesus took upon Himself the sin"
And all sickness.
"a just God must punish sin"
Reference?
Do you believe God punished Jesus?
"An eternal person suffered the eternal wrath"
Wrath of who? (God?)
Has that "eternal wrath" ceased, and if so, how is it "eternal"?
=============================.
"You're using human reasoning to compare us with God... impossible"
Humans are made in God's image.
"You believe what you want"
As does everybody.
"I believe what the word of God clearly teaches"
Washer mentioned the phrase 'cosmic child abuse.' What would you call it if a father regularly spanked his child for misdeeds done by the child's sibling-- all the while knowing that the sibling and not the spanked child had done the misdeeds?
If you got punished for somebody's else's crime, would you consider that:
an appropriate punishment?
a gross miscarriage of justice?
Do you think the "we" here "esteemed" correctly/accurately?:
"Isaiah 53:4,5.... we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God"
"This wasn't 'cosmic child abuse'.... Jesus wasn't forced to do what he did"
Washer mentioned the phrase 'cosmic child abuse.' What would you call it if a father regularly spanked his child for misdeeds done by the child's sibling, after the spanked child volunteered to be punished-- all while the spanked child and the father knew that the sibling and not the spanked child had done the misdeeds?
"Rev 20:13-15"
Just because someone goes somewhere, that doesn't mean he remains there.
When Jesus was in the grave, he preached to human spirits in hell. Those who listened to his preaching aren't in hell currently.
Do you agree with this?:
1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV)
https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm
...we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.
Do you agree with this?:
1 Cor 15:22 (KJV)
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-22.htm
For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Do you agree with this?:
Romans 5:19 (KJV)
https://biblehub.com/kjv/romans/5.htm
For as by one man's disobedience
many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one
shall many be made righteous.
Andrew Hronich, _Once Loved Always Loved: The Logic of _Apokatastasis__ (2023), 377pp., on XVI
https://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?&invId=17597895392&
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1666756202?
Perhaps the watershed moment really came not when I read Rob Bell, but when I read the Apostle Paul.
It was simply an everyday devotional, reading through the Epistle to the Romans, when I gawked at Paul's statement in the fifth chapter.
To this day, I have labeled in my Bible one short question I had from reading Paul's words in Romans 5.
The clear and simple reading of the passage, as well as the obvious parallel Paul is attempting to make, suggests universal reconciliation.
Thus, I wrote the question in the corner of my Bible, "Does Paul mean that all men will be justified?"
I immediately turned to Calvinist commentaries on Romans 5, specifically the viewpoints of John Piper, John MacArthur, and R.C. Sproul.
However, for reasons I will later delineate, I found their arguments to be completely unsatisfactory.
The more I began to read Paul, the more I found him to be a mystical universalist.
Calvin, Piper, Luther.... all,IMO, all see the first fruit as the only fruit- they all seem to miss the word "all" as literally meaning ALL. Apparently all have sinned means all,but not all when talking salvation.
The flesh cannot recognise the spirit of God.
This is what Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 15.
Galatians 5 also is specific about the struggles between flesh and spirit.
All of this differentiates between the spirit of life and the holy spirit.
:thumbsup:
I recently fully realized translators changed ?all? (greek pas) into ?all things?. In Rev.21:5, ?behold! I make all new!? and Eph.1:10 ?will gather all into Jesus? and Jn.3:35 ?the Father loves the Son and has put all in his hands? and likely more.. but not 2Tim.3:16 - ?all scripture for training? because that won?t easily work, lol.
:gsmile:
The Hebrew/Aramaic 'amen' can mean 'continuing.'
The Greek New Testament (the bulk of which-- including the book of Revelation-- was translated from Aramaic), talks about glory, praise etc. being to God 'to the age of ages, continuing'/ 'to the world of worlds, continuing.'
There's no mention of people being tortured 'to the age of ages, continuing.'
https://biblescan.com/search.php?q=%22ever+amen%22
Philippians 4:20 To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Galatians 1:5 All glory to God forever and ever! Amen.
1 Peter 5:11 To him be the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 7:12 Blessing and glory and wisdom... and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
Revelation 1:6 who has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him... be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
1 Peter 4:11 ...through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor... and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His... heavenly kingdom.
To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hebrews 13:21 ...through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Ephesians 3:21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all... generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Romans 11:36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be... glory for ever. Amen.
Revelation 11:15 ...this world is become our Lord's and his Christ's, and he shall reign for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:13 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/revelation/5.htm
13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying,
'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might-- to the ages of the ages!'
14 and the four living creatures said, 'Amen!'
and the twenty-four elders fell down and they bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages.
Romans 16:27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.
Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served... the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:5 ...Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him... be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior... be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:13 For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Psalm 150:6 ...the powers of the heavens do praise thee, and thine is the glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Jesus said, ?All those in the tombs/graves will hear God?s voice and will come forth? (from the graves/tombs) ?some into the resurrection of life? (into THE millennium, to serve called reigning? for to do His works.. crown of Life, not metal.. during his long second advent, a full scope version of his so brief first one?).. ?And some, into the resurrection of (the GWT) judgment? ?day? (Jn.5:28-29, part of his second advent) which elsewhere He calls agelasting correction [?kolasin aionion? oR ?korrection eonian?] Mt.25:46, logically, the completing of - ?drawing all? - Jn.12:32! And surely(?) it?s a same process of refinement/correction for all. The crucible being life as we presently know it - this unavoidable, all important contrast - until vivification either at 1Cor.15:52,53 or at Rev.21:5, 1Cor.15:24-28. (We shall have character that is clear as crystal. Humanity and creation sealed and saturated with God?s Spirit/Presence. The dis-ease as part of the cure? ..And immunity..)
Though the rogue angels purified via the furious fire of the palin/again-genesis? of Rev.21:5, 2Pet.3:12-13. And any by conclusion of GWT judgment ?day? an aionion kolsis, Mt.25:46 which partially unbelieving translators changed into the most extreme possibility for both word. Aion-ion/eonian kolasis/korrection ?correction-eonian.
How do you think Philippians 2:10-11 should be translated?
Keith Giles, How Evangelicals Changed The Bible To Support Their Beliefs - February 17, 2021
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/keithgiles/2021/02/how-evangelicals-changed-the-bible-to-support-their-beliefs/
...the word "gladly" was removed from Philippians 2:10-11 which should read:
"...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should gladly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
...
the Greek word "exomologeo" [which literally means "to acknowledge openly and joyfully"] ...
https://dukhrana.com/pecrapta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=Philippians+2:11&source=khabouris&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
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https://cal.huc.edu/getlex.php?coord=620421208&word=12
ydy verb C
ydy vb. C to give thanks; to confess
C
1 to praise BA-Da, Syr, LJLA. --(a) to praise with thanks Palm, Qum, JLAtg, PTA, CPA, Sam, Syr, JBA, JBAg, LJLA. (a.1) to offer thanks JLAtg. --(b) to speak on behalf of Syr.
2 to confess Gal, Sam, Syr, JBA, Man, LJLA. --(a) to confess faith Syr.
3 to consent, acknowledge OfA-Sam, Qum, Jud, JLAtg, Gal, CPA. --(a) to concede, agree OfA, Gal, Syr, JBA. --(b) to acknowledge a debt Jud, JBA.
Gt to be praised Sam.
Dt to confess Syr.
Ct 1 to be acknowledged, admitted Syr. --(a) (faith) to be confessed Syr.
2 (philos.) to be predicated Syr.
Text in NKJV of the verses
https://x.com/i/grok/share/YBReFwgCHTfTnqeaeAscbzxOG