Universal Restoration verses

[rosered]

Everyone dead will hear His Voice and live  eventually  . for me I take great comfort in  believing  that

Me too.

  :thumbsup:

[jugghead]

Like bible prophecy that seems to remain a huge mystery to so many.. I can't understand why others cannot see that Day Of Judgment (kolasis!) IS Day Of Atonement.

I just had to comment on this statement by you ... FULLY AGREE...

A Day of Judgment is the day that the verdict is read and that sentence is pronounced, and the reason it is God's Day of Atonement is because ... His verdict is: you have been forgiven of your sins, therefore there is no sentence.

Man can't see past the guilty verdict that comes through the law, we know we are all guilty, but to see beyond the veil into Grace is to see that we have been forgiven.

God does not do away with the law, He does away with any condemnation that comes through the law, in other words, He did away with death that came through the law, He did away with the wages of sin.

:thumbsup: :banana: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Like bible prophecy that seems to remain a huge mystery to so many.. I can’t understand why others cannot see that Day Of Judgment (kolasis!) IS Day Of Atonement.

I just had to comment on this statement by you … FULLY AGREE...

A Day of Judgment is the day that the verdict is read and that sentence is pronounced, and the reason it is God's Day of Atonement is because … His verdict is: you have been forgiven of your sins, therefore there is no sentence.

Man can't see past the guilty verdict that comes through the law, we know we are all guilty, but to see beyond the veil into Grace is to see that we have been forgiven.

God does not do away with the law, He does away with any condemnation that comes through the law, in other words, He did away with death that came through the law, He did away with the wages of sin.

:thumbsup: :banana: :HeartThrob:

Amen! And that's why I believe the rest of His children's repentance shall be worked out just like with those who are given the gift of faith during this brief life. Our day of atonement now, and I agree, theirs during "the judgment" Jesus talked about. / the one Jesus talked about. Selah.. Not in most(?) cases an instant repentance, and surely not in any instant, being born again, without their being involved.. Because we learn so much in this whole process.. of repenting, being born again, and that "seed, Jesus" takes root.. grows, matures and bears fruit. It's all about the fruit! grain, fruit, harvest, wheat.. Last verse of Hebrews 8, I think it is, says the Old Testament believers were/are "not perfected before us".. In God's Word there's a harvest. [1 Cor.15:22-28! the list of THREE resurrections - counting first - Jesus'.] And of course the Holy Spirit through Paul tells us we are not yet perfect(ed). Not until at His return/appearance.

I figure God IS life, itself.. And He "is perfect" (Mt.5:48). So I have to think, what does that make imperfection? [Missing the mark -- translated sin, transgression, or crime -   If He is, life and perfect. What does that make imperfect?]

Translators love the most possible extreme I think! And to outright run with verses! ..Sometimes adding 'forever' in verses which originally have no time word in them at all. Strange, to say the least. Perceptions, preconceived ideas color human translation, which influences others perceptions! But mostly it's just two, companion doctrines which have colored the "Good News To ALL".

One is almost like a shadow.. goes kind of unseen.. but keeps dregs of hell in the psyche/outlook/words.. keeps things kind of obscure, confusing, not as easy to be heard/believe? I don't believe in any temporary hell. Or some sort of holding cell. And I know ppl do not come forth out of the graves/tombs until they are resurrected by God's voice in one of two resurrections - meaning collective events, not each person with their own resurrection and judgment day. That's all pagan. If only those so concerned about days.. Sabbaths and diet would be able to hear that!

Am I ranting? ...I think I'm ranting. :doh: Good, I feel better now! :laughing7:

[Eduard]

 Lamentations 3:31-32 English Standard Version (ESV)

31
For the Lord will not
    cast off forever,
32
but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
    according to the abundance of his steadfast love;

[marie glen]

David Ford's post translated - but is the thread original post..

Universal restoration and fate of the wicked
a modified Tentmaker.com document

Twentieth-century Christians have three main visions of the wicked:
The majority view: eternal torture
The minority vision: annihilation or eternal death
The view of the rest: The eventual salvation through Jesus Christ

The eternal vision of torture is that of the majority for about fifteen hundred years in the West. The main scriptures used to support this view are:
Matthew 25: 31-46
Mark 9: 42-48
Luke 16: 19-31
Matthew 12: 24-37
John 3: 35-36, 5: 24-29
Revelation 19: 19-21
Revelation 20: 7-10
Revelation 20: 11-15

The vision of annihilation is the minority vision since the beginning of the writings of the church after the apostles' disappearance. Many of the oldest Christian writings have taught this point of view. Some scriptures used to support this view are:
2 Thessalonians 1: 7-10
John 3:16
Jude 1: 7
1 Timothy 6: 9
Jeremiah 51:39, 57
Malachi 1: 4, 3: 19-21
Obadiah 1: 15-16
Matthew 10:28
Hebrews 10:39
Revelation 20: 11-15

This may shock most Christians today, but what remains in the West today is the majority view of the first five hundred years of Christianity. In fact, of the six theological schools that we know existed between the second and fourth centuries, four of them believed in the salvation of all mankind, only one taught annihilation and only one taught eternal torture, the School of Rome ... see _The Gates of Heaven: Wider than you ever thought! _ by George W. Sarris. For a brief history of how this reversal of doctrines occurred, see the article entitled The Vision of Salvation by Early Christians. The doctrine of eternal torture only became popular in the West in the fifth century, when Augustine began to push it. The majority view of the early church remains to this day Eastern Orthodox understanding:

Orthodox view of salvation - Steve Robinson
https://youtu.be/WosgwLekgn8
Brad Jersak - The Gospel in a Chair
https://youtu.be/D0BUFR9wSko

Most Christians, when told that their doctrines do not agree with the views of the majority of early Christians, do not believe it. They are so sure that the Bible does not contradict itself and that their beliefs are based on the Bible. Those who are majority and minority have often memorized the scriptures that corroborate their position. Evangelists always use them when they wake up to scare people into their church.

Below is a list of scriptures used to support the idea that all humanity will be saved. Do they contradict the beliefs you currently have? If they do, does the Bible contradict itself? And if not, is it possible that the majority of the current church is wrong?

1 Timothy 2: 4 God wants all to be saved
Psalms 135: 6 God does what he pleases
Isaiah 46:10 God will make all his pleasure
John 8:29 Jesus always does what his father likes
Ephesians 1:11 God works all after the counsel of his will
2 Peter 3: 9 God does not want anyone to perish, but to come to repentance
Daniel 4:35 The will of God made in heaven and earth
Hebrews 7:25 Jesus is able to save as much as possible

Proverbs 16: 9 Man conceives, God directs his steps
Proverbs 19:21 Man conceives, but God's counsel is valid
Psalms 33:15 God shapes all hearts
Deuteronomy 32:39 God kills and makes alive
Psalms 90: 3 God turns man into destruction and then says "return"
Lamentations 3: 31,32 God will not reject forever
James 5:11 The end of the Lord is full of mercy

1 Timothy 2: 6 The salvation of all is attested in due time
1 Tim 4:10 God is the giver of the life of all people-- esp. believers
John 12:47 Jesus came to save all
I Timothy 4: 9-11 Jesus is the Savior of all
John 12:32 Jesus draws everything to him
Colossians 1:20 All reconciled to God

Romans 5: 15-21 In Adam, all the condemned, in Christ, all live
1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ live all

Ephesians 1: 9-10 All rejuvenated in Jesus to the fullness of time
Romans 11:36 All out of God, through him and in him
Revelation 21: 4-5 No more tears, everything is new

Ephesians 1: 22-23 all things submitted under the feet of Jesus
Philippians 3:21 everything is subject to Jesus
Psalms 66: 3-4 Enemies will submit to God
1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death will be destroyed;
Rev 20:14 death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire
Isaiah 25: 8 He will swallow death in Victory

Philippians 2: 9-11 (from Aramaic, dukhrana.com) Every language will confess that Jesus is of Master Yah (1 John 2:22)
1 Cor 12: 3 Can only confess by the Holy Ghost
Acts 2: 16-18 The Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh

II Corinthians 5:17 Whoever is in Christ is a new creation.
Ephesians 1:10 In the fullness of time, God will gather all things in Christ, both in heaven and on earth.
Ephesians 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
1 Corinthians 15:22, 24-28 God will be all in all

Revelation 5:13 All creation seen praising God
Colossians 1:16 all things were created for him
Romans 8: 19-21 The Creation Released

Romans 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy to all
Isaiah 45:23 All the descendants of Israel justified
Romans 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Ezekiel 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Isaiah 19: 14-25 Egypt and Assyria will be restored
Acts 3: 20-21 Restoration of all

Psalm 138: 4 All kings will praise God
Isaiah 25: 7 will destroy the veil that spans all nations
Psalms 86: 9 All nations will worship God
Isaiah 2: 2 All nations will flow into the house of the Lord (Micah 4: 1-7)
Revelation 15: 4 All nations bow down before judgments

II Corinthians 5:15, 19 Jesus died for all
Psalms 22: 25-29 All will turn to the Lord, and all the families will bow down to him.
Hebrews 8: 11-12 All will know God
Titus 2:11 Grace appeared to all
1 Corinthians 4: 5 All will praise God
Psalms 145: 9-10 He is good to all and merciful to all his works.
Psalms 145: 14 God raises all who fall
Psalms 65: 2-4 All flesh will come to God
Psalms 145: 10 All the will of God to praise Him
Isaiah 25: 6 Lord makes a feast for all peoples
Luke 2:10 Jesus will make everyone happy
Luke 3: 6 All flesh will see the life that is of God (see Isaiah 40: 5)
1 Corinthians 3:15 All saved, therefore by fire

John 1: 9 Jesus enlightens everyone who comes into the world
John 1:29 the Lamb of God bears the sin of the world
1 John 2: 2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for all the sins of the world
John 3: 16-17 God loved the world and sent his son into the world for the world to live through him.
John 6:33 Jesus gives life to the world
John 8:12 Jesus is the light of the world
John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
Romans 11:15, 32, 36 Reconciliation of the world

John 6:37 All that the Father has given to Jesus will come to Jesus
John 6:39 All that the Father has given to Jesus, Jesus will not lose anyone, but raise him
John 3:35 Everything has been put into his hands.
John 17: 2 Jesus will give eternal life to all whom his Father gives him
John 13: 3 The Father has given him everything
Hebrews 1: 1-2 Jesus is the heir of all things

Ephesians 2: 4-10 When we were dead in our sins, God gave us life in Christ. we are God's, created in Jesus Christ to do good works; His grace manifested in the ages to come

Romans 8: 38-39 nothing can separate us from the love of God

Psalms 72:18 God only does wonderful things

What pleases God?
1 Timothy 2: 3-6 It is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wills ("shall have in certain translations) that all men are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God and a single mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself a ransom for all, so that he may be witnessed in due time ... "
I John 4:14 We have seen and testified that the Father sent the Son as Savior of the world.
John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has put everything into his hands.
John 6:39 It is the will of the Father who sent me, of all that he gave me, I should lose nothing, I will raise him up at the last day.

[darryl]

i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough,  it loses its impact on  them....tsk tsk....words fail me

[WhiteWings]

i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough,  it loses its impact on  them....tsk tsk....words fail me

That doctrine/fear acts as a trap.

Because Scripture is without flaw, claiming it doesn't state ECT is calling God a liar. That's a one way ticket to ECT.
So even studying beyond the ECT doctrine is blasphemy and not done.

[marie glen]

i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough,  it loses its impact on  them....tsk tsk....words fail me

A-men! To that!!

That doctrine/fear acts as a trap.

Because Scripture is without flaw, claiming it doesn't state ECT is calling God a liar. That's a one way ticket to ECT.
So even studying beyond the ECT doctrine is blasphemy and not done.

Amen! Why is it SO hard for folks to understand that human translators are NOT infallible.. Of course church goers, etc are not going to listen to CU/UR if they think it goes against the Word. Ahhh, the joy of KNOWING God’s Word IS and is FULL of UR/CU! Both straight out.. 77 verses listed here at Tentmaker forum, and there’s even more straight out UR verses we likely can all think of.. and how there is very much IMPLIED ur/cu! Shocking it remains missed.. I hope it’s not because a little leaven (i mean here untruth) leavens the whole UR lump! When Truth (God’s Logos/God’s “reasoning expressed in words” shines like gold and silver!
:thumbsup: :gsmile:

[jugghead]

i spent all Sunday arguing with men who believe in ECT....utterly exhausting and frustrating....i guess if they say 'billions and billions' of people tortured forever quickly enough,fast enough,  it loses its impact on  them....tsk tsk....words fail me

That doctrine/fear acts as a trap.

Because Scripture is without flaw, claiming it doesn't state ECT is calling God a liar. That's a one way ticket to ECT.
So even studying beyond the ECT doctrine is blasphemy and not done.

:iagree:

What I myself believe is. that doctrine is a door they cannot go through, on one side is law and on the other is grace, and as long as they believe the law that the heart of man has made, "Do not open that door", they remain on the side of law not knowing the full potential of the Grace of God.

Jesus keeps knocking, but they are told not to answer the door and walk into and "in" Grace, they continue to walk in the darkness of the law because they are told it is a "Do not enter" sign rather than an "exit" sign, because the fullness of the light of "Grace for all mankind" is not allowed.

We need to exit the law where the unforgiving spirit dwells and makes his home and enter into Grace where the Forgiving Spirit dwells and makes His home

my  :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen. I used to feel ‘guilty’ for not seeking out a church. For folks in a good or even okay one and it’s a blessing, that’s awesome. But I tried, many years ago.. didn’t like it. Felt pressure.. could  not relax and “rest in the Lord”. Found myself conforming or trying to. So I allowed myself the freedom to be a temple on my own.. to study on my own.. His voice is in the quietness. And it’s my belief He speaks the word and through His word. And it’s been a wonderful, joyous way, and peaceful. Tho not without being salted with fire and also my battles with the adversary... he/they DO NOT want anyone to know TRUTH. (But Revelation chapter 7 says in late days of this age there shall be a crowd from all nations too many to count who will have not one untrue thing on their lips.. thus not in our hearts.)

In no way do I feel guilty any more for allowing myself the freedom I needed - to be led by His Spirit, with no other teachers. I still study and read on my own. I’m very determined and pretty organized. Today is a day of many seeking truth.. on youtube.. in books.. on sites.. teachers teachers ..I often wish I could teach the teachers, lol.. but idk if anyone ever hears me.. (or us!) But I know He gives us the keys to the kingdom/truth. :smile:

p.s. - I think most believers even Christian Universalists are still missing some pieces to the puzzle which is truth. But have the most important piece of reality, UR/CU!! But some things still keep the presentation of what God is doing - what is the purpose and how is He doing it, and why, etc. is lacking.. I think of the truth with nothing but truth as meat all people can get their teeth into as the saying goes.. Sorry, I love some of those old sayings and cliches.

[jugghead]

Amen. I used to feel 'guilty' for not seeking out a church. For folks in a good or even okay one and it's a blessing, that's awesome. But I tried, many years ago.. didn't like it. Felt pressure.. could  not relax and "rest in the Lord". Found myself conforming or trying to. So I allowed myself the freedom to be a temple on my own.. to study on my own.. His voice is in the quietness. And it's my belief He speaks the word and through His word. And it's been a wonderful, joyous way, and peaceful. Tho not without being salted with fire and also my battles with the adversary... he/they DO NOT want anyone to know TRUTH. (But Revelation chapter 7 says in late days of this age there shall be a crowd from all nations too many to count who will have not one untrue thing on their lips.. thus not in our hearts.)

In no way do I feel guilty any more for allowing myself the freedom I needed - to be led by His Spirit, with no other teachers. I still study and read on my own. I'm very determined and pretty organized. Today is a day of many seeking truth.. on youtube.. in books.. on sites.. teachers teachers ..I often wish I could teach the teachers, lol.. but idk if anyone ever hears me.. (or us!) But I know He gives us the keys to the kingdom/truth. :smile:

p.s. - I think most believers even Christian Universalists are still missing some pieces to the puzzle which is truth. But have the most important piece of reality, UR/CU!! But some things still keep the presentation of what God is doing - what is the purpose and how is He doing it, and why, etc. is lacking.. I think of the truth with nothing but truth as meat all people can get their teeth into as the saying goes.. Sorry, I love some of those old sayings and cliches.

What I put in bold, reminds me of some lines from the third verse in a song by the Moody Blues. (I know you're out there somewhere) that says:

The words that I remember from my childhood still are true
that there's none so blind as those who will not see
and to those who lack the courage, say its dangerous to try
well they just don't know that love eternal will not be denied

which I believe. what I bolded from the song, is just another way what Paul states in Romans 8:38-39

[marie glen]

Amen JH :Peace2: ..and sounds like a great song.. I could almost hear it.. so maybe I've heard it before.. :gsmile:

You may remember my hubby was a semi truck driver.. always came home with more good music!  :HeartThrob:

Music, to me, is a great evidence for God's existence.. and the smile.. babies, butterflies, lol.. The list is endless..

[jugghead]

Amen JH :Peace2: ..and sounds like a great song.. I could almost hear it.. so maybe I've heard it before.. :gsmile:

You may remember my hubby was a semi truck driver.. always came home with more good music!  :HeartThrob:

Music, to me, is a great evidence for God's existence.. and the smile.. babies, butterflies, lol.. The list is endless..

Couldn't agree more. because music stirs up emotions.

What I find incredible, which I believe comes from our heavenly Father, that when mere words stir up emotions, it is then His written word becomes music to our ears

Music is the result of thought and emotion flowing together as one

[marie glen]

Amen! It's quite amazing! I also like it that music is numbers..

That people can sing.. and make music is amazing to me! Even clapping or banging out a rhythm, amazing. ...Imagine setting notes to paper! And in a sense what's happening is people are 'channelling' the music.. Think Stevie Ray Vaughn and any number..

[GodIsLove]

Jugghead, the moody blues were one of my mom's favorite bands. I went to see them in concert with her. After she passed, I made a mix CD with her favorite songs and I included some of their songs. That connection is very meaningful for me right now, thanks.

[Patinak]

Angela,
Your mom had great taste in music!(IMHO)
If you get a chance, there is a video recording of "This is your Life" on Youtube featuring Justin Hayward (Moody Blues guitarist, singer, wrote and sang many of the songs including Nights in White Satin and the song from which Rick quoted).  Quite the gentleman, Justin Hayward.  I also got to see them perform when they came to Anchorage in the mid '80s.

...still praying for healing from your loss.

[jugghead]

Memories of quality time spent together is a light in our darkest hour

[marie glen]

Jugghead, the moody blues were one of my mom's favorite bands. I went to see them in concert with her. After she passed, I made a mix CD with her favorite songs and I included some of their songs. That connection is very meaningful for me right now, thanks.

   :HeartThrob:

[DavidFord]

Ephesians 4:5-7 (Disciples' Literal NT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:5-7&version=DLNT
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, the One over all and through all and in all; 7 and to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Luke 16 (Berean Literal)
https://biblehub.com/blb/luke/16.htm
8 And the master praised the unrighteous manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the sons of this age are more shrewd than the sons of the light in their own generation. 9 And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by the mammon of unrighteousness, that when it fails, they might receive you into the eternal dwellings.

[DavidFord]

"αἰώνιος means eternal"
How would you render Col 1:26?

Colossians 1:26 interlinear, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/1-26.htm
the mystery the having been hidden from the
165/ aiōnōn/ αἰώνων
and from the generations now however having been manifested to the saints of Him

[FineLinen]

The translator of koine doesn't decide whether an adjective is singular or plural. Greek adjectives agree with the nouns they modify in number, gender, and case.

As for the Greek adjective αἰωνιος, it means neither everlasting or belonging to an age. Indeed the meaning has no temporal implications whatever.

The word was used in koine Greek  to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning lasting or durable.

Josephus in The Wars of the Jews book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to αἰωνιος imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.

Jonathan's imprisonment was not everlasting. Neither did it belong to an age. But is was lasting. Although αἰωνιος can modify or describe that which is everlasting, it does not mean everlasting. Although αἰωνιος can modify or describe that which is temporary, it does not mean temporary. It means lasting, and I think you will find that that meaning fits all contexts wherever you find the word in Koine Greek.

"This IS zoe aionios, that we may know You..."

[DavidFord]

The word was used in koine Greek  to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning lasting or durable.
Josephus in The Wars of the Jews book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to αἰωνιος imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.
Jonathan's imprisonment was not everlasting. Neither did it belong to an age. But is was lasting.

The imprisonment lasted an age/period of time lasting 3 years.

another:
"what would an unholy man want in a holy world?"
Not much.  Per Sadhu Sundar Singh, a thief would be uncomfortable in heaven, since his thievery would be clearly evident to everybody (besides being pointless).
Also, an unholy man would be uncomfortable in an unholy world, and that uncomfortableness move afterlife individuals in God's direction.

"There won't be any more opportunities when one dies. One has this life to decide"
Do you think every knee will bend the knee to Jesus?  If 'yes,' will all that knee-bending  occur in this life?
Do you think Jesus is a king who forces certain people to bend the knee to him against their will?

//////////////////////
"my people had a lifetime to accept the ferry offer of a loving God. The moment we die having refused his offer, God's Judicial nature engages and He makes no bones about sending us to Hell for eternity"
Is God loving toward deceased people that had refused his offer in their life on earth?
What exactly is the "offer of a loving God"?  ('love me, or else I'll condemn you to a hellish realm for an infinite length of time'?)

[DavidFord]

Jesus is totally successful in his mission.

1 Timothy 1:15 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/1-15.htm
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance:
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--
of whom I am the worst.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-22.htm
For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 11:32 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/romans/11-32.htm
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

The Total Victory of Christ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjlJI2QlzpEpE_fnoCk0rKQ

1 Corinthians 15 (Pesh itta Holy Bible)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_corinthians/15.htm
20 But now The Messiah is risen from among the dead
and is the first fruits of those who sleep.
21 Just as by a man death came,
in this way also by a man the dead come to life.
22 For just as by Adam all people die,
in this way also by The Messiah they all live;
23 Each person in his order;
The Messiah was the first fruits;
after this, those who are The Messiah's at his arrival.
24 And then the end will come,
when he will deliver The Kingdom to God The Father,
when he will destroy every Ruler and every Authority and all Powers.
25 For he is going to reign
until all his enemies will be set under his feet,
26 And the last enemy death shall be destroyed.
27 For he brought all things to submission under his feet.
But when it says,
"All things are subjected to him",
it is understood that it excludes him who subjected all things to him.
28 And when all is subjected to him,
then the Son shall be subject to him
who subjected all things to him,
that God might be all in all.

=============================.
"Jesus and Christianity may be known to those in these dark places, his power and willingness to forgive"
Who has Jesus _not_ forgiven?

"Those that have not asked."
Is it OK for me to have unforgiveness toward those who have wronged me & haven't asked me to forgive them?

=============================.
"2 Peter 2: 4 ....the angels who sinned... into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment"
Do God's judgments:
serve a positive purpose(s)?
serve 0 positive purposes?

Hebrews 12:6 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-6.htm
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

Revelation 3:19 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/revelation/3-19.htm
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline.
So be earnest and repent.

======================================.
"God has become man that man might become God"
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15013.msg216333#msg216333

Sadhu Sundar Singh on theosis
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15030.msg215532#msg215532

Gregory of Nyssa was a universalist
https://tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=15364.msg218329#msg218329

=====================================.
Do you disagree with any of this rewrite of some of your remarks?:

The 'gospel' is the good news that the Messiah (Anointed One-- One Anointed by God as humanity's High Priest, greatest Prophet, and supreme King/Lord/Master) came and disappeared all the acts of sin i.e. all the unloving thoughts, words, and deeds done by humanity.  In the words of John the Baptiser, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

Before humans arrived, God had a plan to reconcile sinners to Himself by way of a Messiah.
The wages of sin is death.  God promised a Messiah who would save His people from their sins.
With the fall of Adam all became sinners.  Because of the coming, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus the Messiah, all humans will have full, abundant life.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-22.htm
For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Timothy 4:10 (modified NIV), https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm
....we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior/Life-Giver of all people,
and especially of those who believe.

The Messiah came, died, rose again and now sits at the right hand of the Father, and also lives in the minds of his followers.  His power is sufficient to give full, abundant life to every human that has ever lived and that will ever live.

When a person is convinced in her heart that she sinned and hears the good news (gospel) that Jesus is the Messiah who took away all her sins, her belief that Jesus took away her sins changes her mind and makes it turn from a) slavery to sin into b) submission to the King/Lord/Master and Savior/Life-Giver Jesus.  This is the new birth wherein someone is born from Above/God.  The mind changes:  there is admission of sin (unloving thoughts, words, and deeds), repentance from i.e. turning away from unlovingness, and admission that there is a new Master in her life (not unlovingness, and not herself), the King/Lord/Master Jesus.

==========================================.
"Wrath of God taken by Jesus"
I find it hard to believe that:
God was angry toward Jesus;
God punished the sinless Jesus for sins committed by others.

"the problem you have is you have a newly created inner man incarcerated in the flesh"

_The Jesus Secret:  Who I Am_ by Daniel Yordy (2007), 197pp.
https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Secret-Who-Am/dp/147913208X/
On 114:
My Father has an absolute law that cannot be changed. Every living soul must receive what he or she believes. Some are still convinced that the "man of sin" is very much alive in them and must still be crucified.  Pay no attention.  How can evil live in the same Heart that I have made My Throne?
But I told you clearly that everything inside of you that God once hated, that needed to die, is DEAD.  And I command you to believe it is so.
As you believe that you are really and truly free from sin and really and truly alive to God-- so shall you receive!   The others?  They also will achieve what they believe to be true.
Believing that My Cross is finished in you is as important as believing that I live in you.
Stand in My Grace.

==========================================.
"the Aprocrypha.... I don't accept those as part of the Canon"
How come not?  They're in the LXX, Peshi tta Tanakh, and 1611 KJV.

"people closer to the times, versed in the original languages, etc., more brilliant and holier than myself made some choices. I am forced to trust someone, and that is who I have chosen to trust"
Which people?
Do you trust practitioners of 'rabbinic Judaism' who decided around the 800s that the 'deuterocanonical' books didn't belong in their Massoretic OT?

"You can't believe that God could be angry with sin?"
Anger at another's action isn't necessarily the same as anger at another individual.
I don't believe God was angry at Jesus.
Do you think God was angry at Jesus?

"Or that an innocent Lamb without blemish was used to pay/cover sin?"
I don't see how that ties into anger.
I don't see how killing a lamb can:  pay for sin; cover sin.

"Was God angry with that poor little lamb that was killed, without blemish for atonement? Was God angry with the animal that he killed to cover Adam and Eve?"
No; no.

"Jesus was innocent, the lamb was innocent, Jesus took upon Himself the sin"
And all sickness.

"a just God must punish sin"
Reference?
Do you believe God punished Jesus?

"An eternal person suffered the eternal wrath"
Wrath of who?  (God?)
Has that "eternal wrath" ceased, and if so, how is it "eternal"?

=============================.
"You're using human reasoning to compare us with God... impossible"
Humans are made in God's image.
"You believe what you want"
As does everybody.

"I believe what the word of God clearly teaches"
Washer mentioned the phrase 'cosmic child abuse.'  What would you call it if a father regularly spanked his child for misdeeds done by the child's sibling-- all the while knowing that the sibling and not the spanked child had done the misdeeds?

If you got punished for somebody's else's crime, would you consider that:
an appropriate punishment?
a gross miscarriage of justice?

Do you think the "we" here "esteemed" correctly/accurately?:
"Isaiah 53:4,5.... we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God"

"This wasn't 'cosmic child abuse'.... Jesus wasn't forced to do what he did"
Washer mentioned the phrase 'cosmic child abuse.' What would you call it if a father regularly spanked his child for misdeeds done by the child's sibling, after the spanked child volunteered to be punished-- all while the spanked child and the father knew that the sibling and not the spanked child had done the misdeeds?

[DavidFord]

"Rev 20:13-15"
Just because someone goes somewhere, that doesn't mean he remains there.
When Jesus was in the grave, he preached to human spirits in hell.  Those who listened to his preaching aren't in hell currently.

Do you agree with this?:

1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV)
https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm
...we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

Do you agree with this?:

1 Cor 15:22 (KJV)
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-22.htm
For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Do you agree with this?:

Romans 5:19 (KJV)
https://biblehub.com/kjv/romans/5.htm
For as by one man's disobedience
many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one
shall many be made righteous.

[DavidFord]

Andrew Hronich, _Once Loved Always Loved: The Logic of _Apokatastasis__ (2023), 377pp., on XVI
https://www.alibris.com/booksearch.detail?&invId=17597895392&
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1666756202?
Perhaps the watershed moment really came not when I read Rob Bell, but when I read the Apostle Paul.
It was simply an everyday devotional, reading through the Epistle to the Romans, when I gawked at Paul's statement in the fifth chapter.
To this day, I have labeled in my Bible one short question I had from reading Paul's words in Romans 5.
The clear and simple reading of the passage, as well as the obvious parallel Paul is attempting to make, suggests universal reconciliation.
Thus, I wrote the question in the corner of my Bible, "Does Paul mean that all men will be justified?"

I immediately turned to Calvinist commentaries on Romans 5, specifically the viewpoints of John Piper, John MacArthur, and R.C. Sproul.
However, for reasons I will later delineate, I found their arguments to be completely unsatisfactory.
The more I began to read Paul, the more I found him to be a mystical universalist.