Soul sleep

[Jock]

I know some of you folks have a handle on soul sleep or the lack of. Jesus said of Lazarus "he is not dead, he is only sleeping". Same thing with the young girl. Then, the rich man suffering in hades/sheol. But there are scriptures that say the dead know nothing. So, what is it? Do we go straight to the throne, or go into a soul sleep,
or suffer in sheol IF sheol is a place of suffering?

Would appreciate any input

Shalom :Peace2:

Jock.

[eaglesway]

Hi Jock,

   There are strong opinions on both sides of this question among members of the forum. I don't want to wade into the debate on it, but I have an opinion expressed in brief that allows for possibilities of truth in several opinions(soul sleep versus ceasing to exist vs immediately entering the presence of the Lord) here.......

tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/a-interesting-article-on-consciousness/msg171878/#msg171878

its the 12 th post on the first page of the thread

[sheila]

 Hi Jock,   my  :2c:  in Ezekiel 8;3 we read of a place between earth and heaven.......also

  there is a scripture regarding the silver cord being broken. In Daniel we read about a 'deep sleep'

  that fell upon Daniel..and angelic visitation and visions......Paul speaks of being caught up to

  the third heaven,whether out of the body or in it..he did not know.

...these things make me think there is a 'condition' between the terrestial and celestial change.

...whether it is referred to as 'sleep' as in spken to Daniel[you will sleep/rest and then rise for

your lot.] or as in Jesus word's concerning Lazarus and the maiden.   I believe once the silver cord

is broken. ....there is no longer a returning unto the flesh..but a returning unto the Father[better

resurrection]  Isaaih 38;12...speaks of being cut off from the loom.......if you can reckon your

fleshly body as a garmet on an earthly/terrestal loom/of this earth......and it's completion here

and as another 'change of garments' being prepared foryou[place to dwell in the heavenly/celestial loom]

   you may understand the 'making of all things new"

    it is my thought that God can 'suspend' between  the Heaven and earth..and resurrect on earth

if He please[recieve their dead back to life]TO SHOW HIS GLORY AND POWER and has done so

to demonstrate what we can not see with earthly eyes[the better resurrection].Also,He may

  issue the upward call[better resurrection into heavenlies permanantly]

   the hour is come where all whom sleep in the tombs will hear the voice of the son of man.

...at His death..the earthquaked and many rose and entered the city....it is my belief that this

was a visible terrestial demonstratin of what occurs in the invisible celestial realm.......

.....these are my thoughts/perceptions regarding these things..... :friendstu:

[WhiteWings]

I know some of you folks have a handle on soul sleep or the lack of. Jesus said of Lazarus "he is not dead, he is only sleeping". Same thing with the young girl.

So, what is it? Do we go straight to the throne, or go into a soul sleep,

Jesus said they where sleeping. I really doubt they were sleeping in front of the throne. At that time an empty throne imo, because the Son does the judging not Father.

Then, the rich man suffering in hades/sheol.

That was a parable.

But there are scriptures that say the dead know nothing.

OT Scriptures. Things changed when Jesus was resurrected. So even if we could prove with 100% certainty that the OT dead people really knew nothing then still we don't know how things are right now.

:2c:


PS: In the part about the witch of Endor it's called rest.

[eaglesway]

But there are scriptures that say the dead know nothing.

OT Scriptures. Things changed when Jesus was resurrected. So even if we could prove with 100% certainty that the OT dead people really knew nothing then still we don't know how things are right now.

:2c:

Interesting point :o)

[Jock]

WW, How could people rise immediately at death if the Lord calls all between two resurrections?

Sheila

I find your answer quite interesting, about there being a consciousness or a supernatural state between death and resurrection. The scripture that talks about the dead knowing nothing seems to me to indicate a soul sleep or void of consciousness.

When my mother died, I asked the minister who was presiding, "where is she now?. He said "The next thing she knows, she will be with the Lord". I thought that was a good answer.

Anyways, I guess nobody knows for sure. I guess we'll find out!

Shalom

Jock

[eaglesway]

The time is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the son of God and live.

He that believes in me has passed from death unto life.

Why search ye for the living amongst the dead?

Awake O'sleeper and Arise from the dead, and the light of Christ will shine on you.

But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives.


For me. These few verses and some others like them throw everything up into the air like a wave offering.

When we want to establish doctrine, we over simplify the application of individual words like "dead" :o)

The dead know nothing. But wait ....."He that believes in me shall never die."

Perhaps those who are "dead"(in spirit) when they die still know nothing and thse who die yet live(in spirit) immediately enter the presence of the Lord.

I laugh at how hard people strive to sustain systematic theology and how willing they are to ignore verses that can put a question mark over their exclamation points, in order to put God in a box.

I love these words of Paul, "we see through a glass darkly" & "if anyman thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know".

Who are the dead?

Who are the living?

It is impossible, in my opinion to categorize so simply, in the light of the whole cloth of the word- the full context.

[WhiteWings]

Imo, dead most certainly is about spiritual death ALSO.

In Revelation we see ships sink, water gets bitter etc
Besides the literal meaning those things all mean people who spread God's word.

A third of the ships
Those ships sail in the non-literal sea, so it logical the ships aren't literal either.
Proverbs 31:10-14 "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies. Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life. She selects wool and flax and works with eager hands. She is like the merchant ships, bringing her food from afar."
---> The wife is of noble character is a ship transporting good stuff to her husband. Because the ship/wife sails a non-literal sea it's can be safely assumed her good cargo isn't literal food; but items like 'the bread of Christ'. The ships carry the Gospel, good news. They are preachers and evangelists of God's Word. A third of them get martyred.

Rev 14:13 "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." ....
Another strange one at first sight; dead people who die. The real meaning is quite simple: The spiritual dead come alive by believing in Christ and then die in Christ as martyrs.

Rivers and springs turned bitter by wormwood
Sources of fresh water. Living water. Water of the truth.
Wormwood makes this water bitter, undrinkable, and unfit for consumption. Living water will be turned into dead water. For example by injecting false doctrine which basically kills the truth. Or the more direct way, kill the source of water by for example destroying every place where the truth is taught.
Prov 5:1-4 My son, attend to my wisdom, and bow your ear to my understanding:  That you may regard discretion, and that your lips may keep knowledge. For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:  But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a two-edged sword.

The strange woman is a strange teaching/religion. Likely the fertility/wisdom godess Astarte that goes by a dozen other names.

And other interpretation would springs/water referencing to the amniotic fluid. Reproduction problems. Proverbs adds sexual immorality and emptiness. Little factoid: wormwood is used to make Absinth which causes a lot of emptiness. In a way this interpretation aligns perfectly with the previous one because if the truth isn't given birth death follows.

1) Living water represents the truth of the Holy Spirit
2) Springs of water represent the truth of the Holy Spirit delivered locally
3) Rivers of water represent the truth of the Holy Spirit delivered from afar
4) The sea of water represents the false/briny doctrine of a different spirit,
5) Marshes or 'bitter' water represent deadly/putrid doctrine from a different spirit

etc

There are a lot more "idiomatic verses" in Revelation.

[joeteekay]

Here is my  :2c:

This post is associated with the one I posted on the word study of rephaim and nephesh (soul).

Thanks to Jock for raising this, because after my post on the rephaim subject, I wondered if anyone would raise the topic of soul sleep. Soul sleep in IMO is not found in scripture per say.  For one thing, it sounds too much like protestant talk.

I believe most (many?) of us in this forum are agreed that the soul is not immortal.

Ezek 18:20  (KJV)  The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ecc 9:5 (KJV)  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:10  (KJV)  Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

No mention of an immortal soul in these verses.

But scripture tells us that death is sleep.

God prepared Moses for death (sleep):

(Deut. 31:16). "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall rest (sleep - KJV)  [Hebrew: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers..."

Nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death is sleep.  Sleep in death is a state of unconsciousness.

Jesus referred to death as sleep.  Death in the grave is a sleep with no consciousness'.  Jesus performed a miracle by raising Lazarus from the grave showing that He could awake someone from death.  He showed that He had the power to do that.  And He will bring life to the dead who are in Christ at His coming.  This is the resurrection to immortality of God's elect.  Resurrection into the Kingdom of God.

Sleep or death is a realm of unconsciousness. Ps. 6:5. Is 38:18. Eccl. 9:10.

Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness of death either.

From this I conclude that there is no such thing as a NDE (near death experience), IMO.

The dead don't know that they are dead. When someone dies, they will not know that they are dead.   Not only will they never know that they are dead, they have no consciousness.

No one can experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it.  It is obvious by the abundant scriptural proof that all conscious thought and life-functions cease at death.  Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.

Centuries and millennia will pass for those who died and sleep in the dust, yet they have no knowledge of death.  And that is because "The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing".  The billions of humans who have lived and died are completely unaware of the passage of time.  The interim period between the moment of death, when their conscious thoughts ceased, and the instant when they awake to life again at the resurrection does not exist for them.  It will be as if they had gone to sleep and awakened without dreaming.  The passage of time is meaningless to them.


Dan 12:2  (CLV)  From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion."

The dead have NO consciousness.  (Ecclesiastes 9:5)."For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing..."

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgement).

1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

So scripture says that physical death is  sleep in which there is no consciousness.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c:.....Eccles. 9:5 IMO is being taken out of context. The living know they will die, but the dead know nothing, with parallel meaning just means that the dead don't know what will happen to them beyond that (unlike the living who know they will die) because their day of judgment and resurrection has not come, nor do they know future events (so why bother asking them for direction like some people think they are doing via necromancy arts).

In addition to that, in sleep you are not unconscious, just asleep, dreams prove you have consciousness. David said, if I make my bed in sheol, You are there. The resurrection is the RE-union of soul and spirit, in the body. It was understood that Lazarus and the rich man were conscious. It was understood that Moses and Elijah were speaking to Jesus on the mount. God said I am not a God of the dead, but of the living, for all live unto Him. The soul is the part of us, that is us. Blessings.....

[Jock]

Eaglesway, you were right. I could just see reading through the posts that this topic has the potential for a doctrinal tennis match. So, I'll just thank everybody who wrote in and return to ponder all these things.

Here is a link on the dead from Dan Sheridan, I'll put that into the pot too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OJ9diFbJ4

Shalom

Jock :Chinscratch:

[eaglesway]

It's funny Jock, because over the 5 years I've been on TM, I think I have heard every thought that could be expressed on the matter :o). After long consideration and many years of study, it is a subject(I have a few like this) that I am glad I dont fully understand. Where would be the mystery? What left to be revealed :o).

The Lord has been generous enough to me in the things I do understand that I am content to wait upon Him for further revelation on the things I "see through the glass darkly". When He unexpectedly gives me another little piece of the puzzle, it is such FUN!

Usually, outside of a few foundational issues related to personal salvation, the body of Christ and the salvation of all - if I belabor a subject it only with the intention of not allowing one person's or group's view hammered as nails into a wall for everyone to be hung on.

My belief is that most of the issues over which Christians divide are two sides of one coin, and the mystery(true revelation) is hidden in between, or maybe rather, within and above them.

So, as the voice spoke from heaven to the two witnesses, when I am unsure about where the foundation really is, I hearBut the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. the Lord say, "Come up hither".

After all, we are seeking a city made by God, built without the hands, whose foundations are in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

The more we experience being seated there in Christ, the more we begin to know what is worth standing on, and what isnt- and believe me, that is not to criticize the idea of having the discussion, I just cannot bring myself to the debate any more LOLOL 

I appreciate your response.

Check this out, a diagram called, "The Tabernacle of Man". I think its really good.

http://www.logoschristian.org/tab4.html

I think what happens at physical death may depend on which chamber within that tabernacle your throne(affections, affinities and commitments) is.

Colossians 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

If one were to study that verse very carefully i think there is some hidden manna there  :dsunny:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Jock..... I couldn't get the link to work (likely my server).

Although truth is truth and should be sought after in all things, what concerns me the most is people that think that once you die your soul is dead and "gone", as in no more, poof. This idea promotes a sort of slacking, because there is no accountability for what the soul does in life, if it can do whatever if it's only going to just go "poof".

Then there are those that don't think we even have one, or that the soul and spirit are the same thing. This too misses the mark, and makes it impossible to rightly divide scripture, because of all the patterns in the Word that involve them both.

Then the third leaning, and I suppose the least "harmless" if there is such a thing with an error, is that there is no consciousness. Jesus went and preached to the dead and since He's not a respecter of persons and since we have a better covenant, we had better hope and pray there is consciousness to enable repentance for everything the soul did not overcome through Christ while still in the body.

For me, it's settled (believe this or not) because I petitioned Him for close to a year without ceasing, to tell me the truth about what happens after death, no fairly tales, and He did by taking me in the Spirit to descend with Him to bring salvation to a soul that had passed in bondage. I know other people He has done this with.

Nothing can separate us from His love, forever. But since we continue to fall short of His glory and since glory relates to the feminine aspect of God, without a cleansed soul (wedding garment) from Him, "she" is weighted down with sins (the parallel of gravity in the natural) and cannot rise without Him, just like the axe head. My  :2c: Blessings.....

[jabcat]

For me, it's settled (believe this or not) because I petitioned Him for close to a year without ceasing, to tell me the truth about what happens after death, no fairly tales, and He did by taking me in the Spirit to descend with Him to bring salvation to a soul that had passed in bondage. I know other people He has done this with.

Interesting, and a witness to "UR".

I read about a man who was taken into the realm of kolasin aonios where spirits were being disciplined...although it was difficult, he also related that daily there were angels ministering to them.  How much revelation and how much (if any) fabrication, I don't know. 

If there are things you "cannot tell", that's fine of course.  But is there anything you can share about that experience?  I.e., was it a "review", being shown what was lacking and what was needed (repentance and turning to Christ), and "introduction" to Jesus, etc.?  How "long", "where", etc.  Anything you can share?  Blessings.

[eaglesway]

I understand that it is settled for you. I believe there may be more to it, however, than the aspect you experienced, but even if I am wrong about that, since others feel strongly in another direction, I feel it is wiser to leave some leeway, and examine all possibilities as they are presented. In my opinion, to say, "God showed me this is how it is" may be absolutely tru- but it would not be authoritative to me, nor would eliminate a wider view, perhaps even, that God has shown me- but I would never put it that way, altho I might share the testimony for any for whom it might be a blessing. :o)

[joeteekay]

Question-
Is some of this thread  bordering on necromancy?
Just asking - no offence to anyone.
:dunno2:   :Chinscratch:

[Cardinal]

For me, it's settled (believe this or not) because I petitioned Him for close to a year without ceasing, to tell me the truth about what happens after death, no fairly tales, and He did by taking me in the Spirit to descend with Him to bring salvation to a soul that had passed in bondage. I know other people He has done this with.

Interesting, and a witness to "UR".

I read about a man who was taken into the realm of kolasin aonios where spirits were being disciplined...although it was difficult, he also related that daily there were angels ministering to them.  How much revelation and how much (if any) fabrication, I don't know. 

If there are things you "cannot tell", that's fine of course.  But is there anything you can share about that experience?  I.e., was it a "review", being shown what was lacking and what was needed (repentance and turning to Christ), and "introduction" to Jesus, etc.?  How "long", "where", etc.  Anything you can share?  Blessings.

:cloud9: Yes, it IS a witness to UR, which is why I think a lot of people don't want to hear it (because they can't hang onto to turn or burn), just as there are some who don't want to hear it for other reasons, in part I think, because of fear. I have learned to trust Him and His Spirit so completely that if He literally picked me up like Phillip and put me down somewhere else, it wouldn't faze me, and I give Him all the glory for supernaturally removing fear from me to make such trust possible. We literally limit Him by putting Him in a box with our unbelief about what He can or cannot do with us. We serve a supernatural God who is Spirit and there is NOTHING He can't do.

I was in the church He used me to start, with 4 others. The person had passed about 8 months before. Before her passing, we had all asked God that if there was anything He could use us to carry for her to help her overcome (bearing the burdens of the weak), we were willing. This was a close relative, and I literally told Him to bring the cancer to me instead because I was not afraid of it (it is literally just a word and He is the Word above all others), if it be His will.

He told me it would have a legal right (generation curse) to come to me, but that He would not let it touch me. A year and a half later, after I started hemorrhaging buckets, I was diagnosed with terminal cancer, but He did not let it "touch me", I was healed at some point in a week's time.

It came to me this night about 8 months after her passing, that it was time to pray and seek Him for deliverance from anything from our offer to bear the burdens of the weak prayer, and so we started to do that one at a time. When it came to me, as soon as they started to pray, I went down to the floor on my back like one dead, saying, "Help me, I'm falling!" And then I literally felt my spirit in His going down through the floor, then the earth and then I heard via the Spirit, this person say one sentence to me (which He allowed to bring healing to my heart).

After that, what followed was a 5 hour deliverance of the person's soul, with Him naming to different ones, what had her bound. Things like "malice, hate, murder," ect. When I sensed it was over, I tried to stand up but couldn't stand erect. I was not in pain, just literally couldn't stand upright, and was stunned by this. I asked Him what is wrong with me, and I saw in the Spirit, what looked like two triangles, one light, one dark, point to point, like two pyramids with one on top of another.

But the one on top, the light one, was a fraction off as far as being not yet completely upright with the other one, and then He spoke "apex". We looked up the word in the dictionary, and it meant the POINT at which the sun meets the earth, the horizon. Literally, the sun/Son had not completely risen in rulership over my "earth" yet!

I know this is "extreme", but I believe we have such a short time to empty out and let Him cleanse the inside of the cup, I'm willing to be thought a "kook" or whatever, if it will help someone out there be set free BEFORE they physically die. When Jesus told the Pharisees, they would die in their sins, THIS is what He meant. My  :2c: Blessings....

PS. After this happened, I met and got an email from three Kingdom ministers I know, who had experienced somewhat of the same thing, in that they saw some of "so great a crowd of witnesses" in their services. One of them was actually quite funny, because it involved two brothers. The one pastor brother would only let the prophet brother speak in a church to get his feet wet, if only a few people showed up. So when the pastor one told the prophet one to go out and speak, when he got out there, he was surprised to see a packed house. Just as He was finishing up, he realized that his deceased father was sitting in the back row. Just then, the "crowd" disappeared, and he realized why the pastor brother had let him speak. In the flesh, there was only a handful there.

[Cardinal]

I understand that it is settled for you. I believe there may be more to it, however, than the aspect you experienced, but even if I am wrong about that, since others feel strongly in another direction, I feel it is wiser to leave some leeway, and examine all possibilities as they are presented. In my opinion, to say, "God showed me this is how it is" may be absolutely tru- but it would not be authoritative to me, nor would eliminate a wider view, perhaps even, that God has shown me- but I would never put it that way, altho I might share the testimony for any for whom it might be a blessing. :o)

:cloud9: I understand that but this is my portion to share. Don't take my word for anything. Ask the LORD to show you and He will. My  :2c: Blessings....

[Cardinal]

Question-
Is some of this thread  bordering on necromancy?
Just asking - no offence to anyone.
:dunno2:   :Chinscratch:

:cloud9: No. Necromancy is summoning the dead to have a discourse with them, for direction, ect., which is totally impossible apart from His Spirit, and is strictly forbidden. HIM delivering someone in front of witnesses, is quite another matter. Blessings....

[jabcat]

Card, was this person already a believer, but not an overcomer, i.e., still held in carnality?  Or had she not known Christ at all?  Thanks.

[Cardinal]

Card, was this person already a believer, but not an overcomer, i.e., still held in carnality?  Or had she not known Christ at all?  Thanks.

:cloud9: She was a believer who had not overcome a lot of things. My concern about her spiritual state was what prompted me to keep asking Him to tell me the truth, for her sake. I believe this is why the Jews pray for the departed up to a year after they have passed. Blessings....

[eaglesway]

Could be why christians baptize for the dead too.

[jabcat]

Such as the whole "heaven" discussion, I think there's a lot about these after-life questions that are intriguing.  Her being a believer, but still needing to have some things "worked out of her", brings up the question of where the cross, His blood, and things like 2 Cor. 5:21 comes in - "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 

One thought is that a blood-washed, Spirit-filled believer may suffer loss, but still stand before Him as righteous and accepted in the Beloved;  losing rewards and perhaps position of service, but not needing on-going correction.  In the scenario with your friend/relative, where do you see the blood entering in here?  And for what purpose if not having put her in right standing with God (i.e., made His child and not a "bastard")?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The word for salvation in the Greek here is soterios, and also means DELIVERANCE. Now we are told that we are spirit, SOUL, and body. We are also told we are described as trees, and He is the tree of life. So if you look at it fractionally, with the 3 part tabernacle pattern, we have seed/roots, growth/bud/leaves, and fruit.

The roots are the growth that is in the mind part of the soul/heart (as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he), and the fruit is what we bear in our bodies, the recompense of our reward from sowing and reaping. This is why hate is as the sin of murder. The hate is in the heart of the priesthood (soul/inside of cup), is what makes the body at large commit murder, because the body can only do what it sees it's head do. That's the fruit of hate, just as the fruit of rebellion is witchcraft, and the fruit of idolatry is stubbornness.

When He's talking about trees bearing fruit, we know He wants good fruit, but the problem is, out of the abundance of the HEART/soul of man comes only evil continually. Why? Because Eve/soul was where the seed was planted by the enemy, while Adam slept. This is why all sin is common to man meaning mankind, because we all have been impregnated with the same seed in our wombs/souls, and it's our choice whether or not to "water" it and make it grow until it produces fruit. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve.

These ARE the generational curses, because they passed down through the generations.
The branches of the trees are as "arms/hands" representing works of the flesh, so once you decide to agree with the enemy/seed in your heart, and you put an accompanying action to it, FRUIT is the result.

This is why we are told to THINK on these things, ie. whatsoever is lovely, of good report, ect., and to bring every thought into captivity to the mind of Christ. And why it says out of the abundance of the HEART, the mouth speaks, and why the tongue is a WORLD of iniquity, because it literally creates the "world" your spirit is dwelling in, ie. life and death is in the tongue. The tongue, BTW, is where the worm dieth not, and is why we are told if we master it, we have mastered the whole body, but if not, it sets fire (judgments).

Now this bad blood we got, is what the blood of the Lamb cleanses, but since salvation is a PROCESS involving spirit, soul, and body not a one-time event, then it follows that in His great mercy, He will not leave the "job" undone, and so we are told that even DEATH cannot separate us from His love. These things of the bad blood, are literally of the spirit of death, or death producing seed.

Our heart/soul, is His garden, and so we read of the Shulamite in Song of Solomon, a garden enclosed, my sister, my spouse. Matt. 13 parable of the wheat and the tares, describes the process of deliverance, with the end result. This process does not end with the death of the body, because we are more than just our body.

What we need to get ahold of IMO is that God never intended for man to die in the first place. He told them in the garden in the day you eat of it, you shall die. Obviously, they didn't die that day, Adam lived to be almost 1000 years old, which is a description of a day to the Lord, and IS Christ the DAY of rest. In other words, if they had walked in the Spirit of the proceeding word of life by which we live or have life, and had not eaten of the wrong tree, we would be conversing with Adam today, instead of bearing in our spirit, soul and bodies, both the root, seed and the fruit of what they ate.

So since that was His intention, restoration involves undoing everything in the garden that was lost, which includes the soul of man. Eve was supposed to only receive seed from Adam (representative of His spirit and her head), but she instead received seed from the enemy, which murdered them both. Cain was the resulting fruit that passed down; Satan was a murderer from the beginning. I personally believe they were twins, with each bearing the likeness of their respective fathers, and an example of the flesh warring against the spirit.

So now ultimately, here is the crux of the problem. The seed is there, and even if we don't water it by our choices, ie. giving it life in US, it is still in the heart and only He can take it out. And as I said, this principle of the body only doing what it sees the head do, means that the spiritual priesthood is accountable for what they allow to remain in their hearts in this hour, when He is wanting to cleanse the inside of the cup.

The fact that it is in our heart, is precisely why we cannot judge those in the "outer court" realm, and why if we do we will be judged by the SAME MEASURE we mete out. "They" are doing what they "see" (the soul is the realm of spiritual things) us "do" in our hearts. Which is why Jesus said, if you lust after a woman in your HEART, you have already committed adultery with her. Adultery takes TWO, ie. the heart/soul and the body of another. My  :2c: Blessings....

PS. Just last week, someone I know personally told me the Lord had taken them to see the souls of those that passed on, and to deliver one of them with Him. She said she saw open pit type graves covering the earth, for as far as the eye could see, with people in them, that were very much aware of where they were. Those in the graves shall hear His voice?

Interestingly, they were bound to this area by the angel of death, who appearing in a great sweeping black robe, and like swished back and forth over the graves keeping them all in place through fear (man is in bondage to the fear of death all of his days). Also, reminds me of Satan going to and fro in all the earth, seeing whom he might devour, and that the last enemy to be overcome is DEATH itself.

She said she covered the person in her robe (our robe of righteousness we have through Him?) she had on, and the angel of death could not see her or the other person. Love covers a multitude of sins. Also reminds me that we were told if we saw someone that didn't have a garment, to give them ours.

When you see that the son of man (in you) has power to remit sins, then know that the kingdom of God has come unto you. We are called to be intercessors who by the power of the Holy Spirit can remit sins, and told that whatever sins we remit, they are remitted and whatever sins we retain they are retained.

[WhiteWings]

Card, was this person already a believer, but not an overcomer, i.e., still held in carnality?  Or had she not known Christ at all?  Thanks.

:cloud9: She was a believer who had not overcome a lot of things. My concern about her spiritual state was what prompted me to keep asking Him to tell me the truth, for her sake. I believe this is why the Jews pray for the departed up to a year after they have passed. Blessings....

So do Catholics. Names are mentioned during the mass.

I "recognize" that number (1 year).
They reburied their dead in bone boxes after a year. (see .pdf I gave you a month ago)
I think ultimately the year comes from the ancient Jewish view that purification in Gehenna lasts a maximum of 12 months.