The following is a plea by someone online who publicly asks for help concerning UR.
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/unieletter.html
I realize that not all of the following is believed by every universalist, but all of the following is believed by some universalists. Therefore, I ask for proof because I can find no evidence of the following in Scripture despite the assertions of universalists:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.
Care to take a shot in answering his questions?
Quote from: Craig on November 16, 2007, 02:49:06 AM
The following is a plea by someone online who publicly asks for help concerning UR.
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/unieletter.html
I realize that not all of the following is believed by every universalist, but all of the following is believed by some universalists. Therefore, I ask for proof because I can find no evidence of the following in Scripture despite the assertions of universalists:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.
Care to take a shot in answering his questions?
My paper has a perspective that addresses all of these questions.
http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html (http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html)
I could dialogue more with this person if he or she would like it. But my free time is currently backlogged with trying to keep up with other conversations that I got myself into.:)
I think we had a bash at this on the last board.
First off, the questions are all based from a bias of a futurist so trying to answer concise and directly will be difficult and most of CU's believe in the here and now.
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
The sins of all men are already forgiven by the cross. It is a done deal and what salvation is about is not about getting sins forgiven, it is about entering into the kingdom now as opposed to later.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
Every knee shall bow. When you give reverence to someone, you put aside all pride and piety.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
As sin dies with the flesh, only the spirit of the man is resurrected, w/o a sinful nature anymore, there is only one choice thay can make.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
Problem here is based on the premise of sin being judged. Works are judged. If anything goes into a fire of sorts it will be the sin and not the sinner. Even our works shall be judged and many, if not all, will also be consumed by flames. Our most righteous works are as filthy rags, either they get washed anew or burned.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
This follows the premise, we are resurrected sin and all. The wages of sin is death.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
Ditto
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
Ditto
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
There is scripture of all things being reconciled, here it is in context. I however only believe only those dead in Adam will be reconciled.
Col 1:13 For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son;
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
Col 1:16 For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all fullness should dwell.
Col 1:20 And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
Well the fallen angels is a myth to start with. I guess he is asking about the nephilim aka horny angels. Strange the angels do not rape our lasses today, Ah yes, God put a stop to that. Wow god must realy have been dumb to be caught out by his own creation just like when Adam and Eve sinned, wow He must be on plan F at least by now, what a dumb god.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.
Problem here is, just like all the other questions, it is posed from his theology is 100% correct so I guess he is god, now who can argue with a god eh?
Jesus came to save us all from our sins. Sins have consequence in this life not the afterlife.
If we have to account for only 1 sin, then Jesus died in vain. It means that His sacrifice was not redemptive enough.
The single biggest problem with this person is he is under law and not grace. He thinks he has a will stronger than God's will.
He has anyway made his mind up and no amount of sharing with him of Father's UNCONDITIONAL Love will move him. Best leave it to the Holy Spirit.
It actually amazes me how people that did not or were not subject to a hell-fire doctrine can embrace UR easier. Brain washing is powerful stuff.
Blessings
God would never throw out the baby with the bathwater, and we are all His "babies", even the least of us. Would you willingly sacrifice your favorite Son to save all of your children who have fallen short? God would.
Care to take a shot in answering his questions?
To me these are straw men questions since scripture and the Bible teach Jesus has already reconciled the entire world. The entire world is holy and blameless since that which works wrath, the law, was fulfilled and completed by Jesus on the cross. He drew all of humankind into Himself at the cross and we are all in Him. Not everyone has knowledge of this fact [including 99.9999% of Jesus' supposed followers], but they will believe when they pass away since to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The church likes to take the ONE new man created by God and redivide them into "believers" and "non-believers".
Hope all is well...
Giz
I'm not gonna take on the questions, to me it's a moot point. He will believe as he believes, and likely find others who believe as he does. The sadness will be him teaching his doctrine to others who will accept it. Ya know, all those repititions of "his" in those sentences did kinda remind me of the earlier comment, seems he wants to be God vicarious, don't the catholics already have that one cornered? Anyways, he will not impact my beliefs, and those who choose to converse with me will hopefully accept the truth as I see it. Not that I could ever understand everything. Just simple truths and good news for all men.
Quote from: Reverend G on December 25, 2007, 08:49:55 AM
I'm not gonna take on the questions, to me it's a moot point. He will believe as he believes, and likely find others who believe as he does. The sadness will be him teaching his doctrine to others who will accept it. Ya know, all those repititions of "his" in those sentences did kinda remind me of the earlier comment, seems he wants to be God vicarious, don't the catholics already have that one cornered? Anyways, he will not impact my beliefs, and those who choose to converse with me will hopefully accept the truth as I see it. Not that I could ever understand everything. Just simple truths and good news for all men.
'
It is not for his benefit, but yours that you are able to answer his questions. Why ignore it? The point is, if we cannot give a reasonable answer, then how is there any hope that what we know is true?
1 Peter 3:15But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord.
Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.
Quote from: SOtW on December 26, 2007, 11:04:08 AM
Quote from: Reverend G on December 25, 2007, 08:49:55 AM
I'm not gonna take on the questions, to me it's a moot point. He will believe as he believes, and likely find others who believe as he does. The sadness will be him teaching his doctrine to others who will accept it. Ya know, all those repititions of "his" in those sentences did kinda remind me of the earlier comment, seems he wants to be God vicarious, don't the catholics already have that one cornered? Anyways, he will not impact my beliefs, and those who choose to converse with me will hopefully accept the truth as I see it. Not that I could ever understand everything. Just simple truths and good news for all men.
'
It is not for his benefit, but yours that you are able to answer his questions. Why ignore it? The point is, if we cannot give a reasonable answer, then how is there any hope that what we know is true?
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully.
This is an excellant thought and verse, for there may be others like myself reading and interested in the answers that you choose not to give....
I would love to see some replies to this....
blessing to you all
a seeker,
sun
I wholly support you in that regard, though I must say I am not ready at this time to take up that discussion. I just find it so odd that people will find it possible that the same Christ that said to the Father of His tormentors, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" would be unable to forgive any other human ever. I mean come on, we are talking about definitely non-Christian people, and here he is asking they be forgiven.
Quote from: Reverend G on December 27, 2007, 01:24:07 PM
I wholly support you in that regard, though I must say I am not ready at this time to take up that discussion. I just find it so odd that people will find it possible that the same Christ that said to the Father of His tormentors, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" would be unable to forgive any other human ever. I mean come on, we are talking about definitely non-Christian people, and here he is asking they be forgiven.
You may not believe this, but there are some, (myself specifically)
who were raised without the thought of universalism as even a possibility...
so believe it or not, the way you interpret this verse, was new to me...and quite interesting. Please don't look down on me for not seeing it in this light ever before...I think I was raised with "glossed over" verses, and some verses interpreted differently. If for instance you put on blue glasses what you read looks, well, blue... so for someone who was raised differently...this could be all new and important to understand. If you are not interested in explaining your light...then perhaps others will be?
Hi all
I am trying to make this as short as I can and hope it goes up properly.
John 17
Joh 17:1 - John 17:4
Here Jesus has been given power over all flesh. All were given to Jesus to be in his power. All that are given to him will be given eternal life.
And Now......
Jesus praying for the 12 apostles.
John 17:6 John 17:12
Judas was lost. What does Jesus do with the lost?
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Further info on lost. An article taken from Gary A.'s website at the bottom of this article.
What is the will of God?
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
It is God's will to gather all that are given to Jesus. God's works all things after the counsel of his will. It is not his desire that will not be accomplished. It is his purpose to accomplish the saving of all.
Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
If Jesus is not of the world, does that mean he will not safe the world?
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I believe we should be thinking of bad works versus good works rather than good people versus bad people. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to destroy the person themselves.
When it comes to being a wicked one, I would have to assume that also means a sinner. We are all sinners. Not one of us is free from sin. We will be sinners till at least we die. So one would assume since we are all sinners we will all be judged after we die.
Quote from Elwin R. Roach
A lake by definition is a body of water. THE LAKE of burning brimstone is a body of Godfire. He makes His angels spirits and His ministers flames of fire (Psa. 104:4). The Body of Christ is a many-membered body consisting of those who have been baptized into that Body (not water but His Body). The spirit of each member is a candle of the Lord (Prov. 20:27), and when they all burn with the flaming brightness of God's Spirit, GODFIRE, and they cover the earth as the waters cover the seas, you have THE LAKE OF FIRE even BRIMSTONE, THE LAKE OF GODFIRE! His Body, THE BODY OF THE SON OF GOD, composed of the flaming Sons of God, is what those with the mark of the beast (wood, hay, and stubble) will be cast/baptized into. It matters not whether it was yesterday, today, tomorrow, or in the age to come, or even beyond, Jesus will baptize every soul with the Spirit of His Holy Fire; every soul shall be thoroughly salted with it; He will purge the floor of His earth -- the earth that "...is the Lord's, the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein!" (Psa. 24:1). Oh, children of this age, what a baptism, what a purging! And in the end, each and everyone will joyfully say -- "I needed that."
Article from Tentmaker's website.
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish?"
"Perishing"
Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as "perish" or "destroy," the original word is "apollumi." The Greek word "apollumi" means to "to lose, or to be lost." It is the same word Jesus used when He said
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
and
"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep"" (Luke 15:4-7).
This word, "apollumi," is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)
The original word for "destroy" there is "apollumi" which means "to lose or be lost." This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the "lost" sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone "perishing." Such as in John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
A better translation would be "whoever believes in Him should not be lost." We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further "apollumi," or being "lost" in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.
Those who are "lost" or "perished," are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all "apollumi", or "lost and perished" as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.
by JW
Quote from: Faith on December 27, 2007, 06:57:57 PM
Hi all
I am trying to make this as short as I can and hope it goes up properly.
John 17
Joh 17:1 - John 17:4
Here Jesus has been given power over all flesh. All were given to Jesus to be in his power. All that are given to him will be given eternal life.
And Now......
Jesus praying for the 12 apostles.
John 17:6 John 17:12
Judas was lost. What does Jesus do with the lost?
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Further info on lost. An article taken from Gary A.'s website at the bottom of this article.
What is the will of God?
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
It is God's will to gather all that are given to Jesus. God's works all things after the counsel of his will. It is not his desire that will not be accomplished. It is his purpose to accomplish the saving of all.
Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
If Jesus is not of the world, does that mean he will not safe the world?
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I believe we should be thinking of bad works versus good works rather than good people versus bad people. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, not to destroy the person themselves.
When it comes to being a wicked one, I would have to assume that also means a sinner. We are all sinners. Not one of us is free from sin. We will be sinners till at least we die. So one would assume since we are all sinners we will all be judged after we die.
Quote from Elwin R. Roach
A lake by definition is a body of water. THE LAKE of burning brimstone is a body of Godfire. He makes His angels spirits and His ministers flames of fire (Psa. 104:4). The Body of Christ is a many-membered body consisting of those who have been baptized into that Body (not water but His Body). The spirit of each member is a candle of the Lord (Prov. 20:27), and when they all burn with the flaming brightness of God's Spirit, GODFIRE, and they cover the earth as the waters cover the seas, you have THE LAKE OF FIRE even BRIMSTONE, THE LAKE OF GODFIRE! His Body, THE BODY OF THE SON OF GOD, composed of the flaming Sons of God, is what those with the mark of the beast (wood, hay, and stubble) will be cast/baptized into. It matters not whether it was yesterday, today, tomorrow, or in the age to come, or even beyond, Jesus will baptize every soul with the Spirit of His Holy Fire; every soul shall be thoroughly salted with it; He will purge the floor of His earth -- the earth that "...is the Lord's, the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein!" (Psa. 24:1). Oh, children of this age, what a baptism, what a purging! And in the end, each and everyone will joyfully say -- "I needed that."
Article from Tentmaker's website.
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish?"
"Perishing"
Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as "perish" or "destroy," the original word is "apollumi." The Greek word "apollumi" means to "to lose, or to be lost." It is the same word Jesus used when He said
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
and
"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep"" (Luke 15:4-7).
This word, "apollumi," is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)
The original word for "destroy" there is "apollumi" which means "to lose or be lost." This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the "lost" sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone "perishing." Such as in John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
A better translation would be "whoever believes in Him should not be lost." We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further "apollumi," or being "lost" in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.
Those who are "lost" or "perished," are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all "apollumi", or "lost and perished" as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.
by JW
:iagree:
Quote from: james.goetz on November 16, 2007, 05:02:25 AM
Quote from: Craig on November 16, 2007, 02:49:06 AM
The following is a plea by someone online who publicly asks for help concerning UR.
http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/unieletter.html
I realize that not all of the following is believed by every universalist, but all of the following is believed by some universalists. Therefore, I ask for proof because I can find no evidence of the following in Scripture despite the assertions of universalists:
1) The sins of the wicked being forgiven in the after life.
2) The wicked repenting in the after life.
3) The wicked accepting Jesus Christ in the after life.
4) The wicked avoiding judgment in the after life.
5) The wicked having sin "conditioned" out of them in the after life.
6) God tormenting the wicked in the lake of fire (presumably to condition sin out of the wicked).
7) The wicked getting out of the lake of fire.
8) Nor can I find anywhere that God repents of His judgment on Satan in the afterlife, or anywhere else. Satan was condemned by the Almighty in Genesis chapter three.
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
10) Nor do I see all peoples being saved in the after life.
Care to take a shot in answering his questions?
My paper has a perspective that addresses all of these questions.
http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html (http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html)
I could dialogue more with this person if he or she would like it. But my free time is currently backlogged with trying to keep up with other conversations that I got myself into.:)
Christ died on the cross to save the Flesh of Man kind from death and sin. Mankind becomes immortal. The Fallen Angels and the Devil are spirit beings, and are not mortal. Thus they cannot be saved. They are completely evil and cannot be changed. Christ did not come to Earth to save them, He came to save His Children.
I do not believe Satan nor his fallen angels will be saved. The Bible does not have a scripture that says they die the lake of fire...
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I get this to mean 'unto the ages of ages', this probably is a really long time.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. I think it is a clear distinction that they will have "THEIR PART" in the lake. They won't remain there always. The second death is not literal, it symbolizes dying out to sin. The Devil and hisangels, however... we are not given any scripture that says they die the second death. This answers the question of whether or not they will 'get out' of the fire. The fire only burns until it cleanses and purges away everything that needs to be burned away.
There isn't a Scripture that blatantly says "in Revelation" that people will be saved, besides the fact that if you have an understanding that the lake of fire is a purifying and cleansing fire and not a literal one, because Our God is a consuming Fire! Hebrews 12:29
Revelation 14:10-11 These are tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
These are tormented - not tortured.
Fear hath torment! = 1 John 4:18
To the unsaved, His Glory is a Lake of Fire and Brimstone - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire. This is why they are tormented. It is not God purposely hurting them in any way.
Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer.
"That at the name of Jesus (Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour) EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess ('That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED', Rom. 10:9) that Jesus Christ (Christ, who was 'raised from the dead.' Christ was already 'RISEN' when this was written in Phil. 2:11) is Lord ('Lord' means 'master'—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives), to the glory of God the Father" Phil. 2:10-11.
The Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act. 1 Cor. 12:3
This event obviously happens after the resurrection of the unjust and the just.
Judgement is correction for the Unbelievers. God will judge sinners with His very Word.
"I think it is a clear distinction that they will have "THEIR PART" in the lake. They won't remain there always. The second death is not literal, it symbolizes dying out to sin. The fire only burns until it cleanses and purges away everything that needs to be burned away".
"To the unsaved, His Glory is a Lake of Fire and Brimstone - divine, cleansing, purging, purifying, consuming fire. This is why they are tormented. It is not God purposely hurting them in any way".
:iagree:
I like that. Your talking about how God will consummate the "dying to the old person" process, so the new person can emerge, made in the image of Christ.
(if you read the reply to your 'Is the Univresalist right about Aion'....
Quote from: fullarmor2Your talking about how God will consummate the "dying to the old person" process, so the new person can emerge, made in the image of Christ.
....is called AIONIOS.)
Just to represent opposition, an alternative meaning to "their part" in the lake of fire is offered. It could be viewed as thier part of the lake, just as children have their part of a pool (the shallow part), or men condemned to death have "their part" of a prison, i.e. death row. This denotes no time factor. Accordingly, they could spend eternity in that place. I don't think so, but had to proffer the comment. How long is half of eternity?
The millineum is the period when all who will may come to Jesus and put faith in Him.ALL sins in this evil time forgiven.ALL.But what then?The work of gathering and seperating begins.
Done by Christ and His saints, who were chosen by Him by grace, without spot or wrinkle,for they are in Him and He IS their righteousness.
Malachi 3:17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Isaiah 55
1Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
A second witness to this.
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
The question becomes whosoever will.
Why do you think the scripture say Satan decieves the nations a second time? Second?
Same people at the end of the millineum.The tares. The wheat has been gathered.They are who will come during the millineum.
All the sons of Adam,the son of God,who was given the breath of life.The crop God planted.
Job 34:10Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
11For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
12Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
13Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
14If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
16If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.
Quote from: Reverend G on January 02, 2008, 08:51:17 AM
Just to represent opposition, an alternative meaning to "their part" in the lake of fire is offered. It could be viewed as thier part of the lake, just as children have their part of a pool (the shallow part), or men condemned to death have "their part" of a prison, i.e. death row. This denotes no time factor. Accordingly, they could spend eternity in that place. I don't think so, but had to proffer the comment. How long is half of eternity?
Aionios does not always have a time factor. Aionios simply means, something that lasts until it lasts and has a transitionary quality.
Thanks SOtW, for years I have tried to read articles on aionios and couldnt even get thru them. That simple sentence of "Aionios does not always have a time factor. Aionios simply means, something that lasts until it lasts and has a transitionary quality." finally allows me to understand.
Thanks
Faith
For some people, that definition is 'pointless'. They don't think that it gives any clarification to anything. Why say something lasts as long as it lasts, does not all things last that way? Well no, immortality does not last as long as it lasts, it is immortal. Something at lasts only a year, only lasts a year. Etc.
Why have a adjective that means 'lasts as long as it lasts'.
It is the same difference between in the adjective 'big':
A 'big' basketball or a 'big' revelation.
In the first definition of big is spacial, it does not definitively tell you what size 'big' is. It all depends on the nature of the thing it describes. In this case, the 'big' could be the size of the universe with the mininum size as a regular basketball we just know that it big for a basket ball. Quantitative.
In the second definition of big is abstract idea, it does not have a spacial quality so there is no size to it. In this case, the 'big' depends on the nature of the thing it describes and it is an abstract idea called a revelation. It means it was significant. Qualitative.
Same with aionios. In the quantitative aspect, it does not definitely tell us how long it lasts, it just lasts as long as it lasts. In the qualitative, it is transitionary going from one stage to another.
AIONIOS ZOE =(is)> God Changing Life (ie: Edification, Growth, Reward) =(End Result)> Immortality
AIONIOS KOLASIS =(is)> Punishiment Changing Correction (ie: Punishement, Pruning, Loss) =(End Result)> Immortality.
Hi
It was the word transistionary that did it for me. It is like with my son, I home schooled him. At first I thought he would miss out on the teenager stage of life because he was not in school. But he did not miss that stage. He went through that stage between 18 to about 25. So it is like he went thru Aionios Zoe and Aionios Kolasis (of growth, reward, and correction) but still ends up going to the next step of being an adult. People go through different ages in their life, from preschool to mature adult. Each age can be a different length of time for each person.
I guess it is how an explaination can relate to how something is happening in your life.
Faith
Quote from: Faith on January 02, 2008, 10:49:57 PM
Hi
It was the word transistionary that did it for me. It is like with my son, I home schooled him. At first I thought he would miss out on the teenager stage of life because he was not in school. But he did not miss that stage. He went through that stage between 18 to about 25. So it is like he went thru Aionios Zoe and Aionios Kolasis (of growth, reward, and correction) but still ends up going to the next step of being an adult. People go through different ages in their life, from preschool to mature adult. Each age can be a different length of time for each person.
I guess it is how an explaination can relate to how something is happening in your life.
Faith
Absolutely. :)
We all know that we can have AIONIOS ZOE now, or later. Thus why could we not suffer AIONIOS KOLASIS now or later. The more we delve into what the adjective means, the more we find out that what Jesus said about the self-righteous recieve their reward now in full, while the humble build up a reward in heaven for later. etc. The biggest mistake is to say AIONIOS ZOE (or eternal life) is synomous with 'end' Salvation. All I know, is that when I attain the resurrection, I will be raised to AIONIOS ZOE, not AIONIOS KOLASIS, my trust is and always in Christ Jesus.
Today, my car broke down, I don't have the money to buy a new one, but the Lord will supply all my needs.
Quote from: SOtW on November 16, 2007, 02:49:06 AM
9) Nor do I see any evidence that God will acquit any fallen angel ever.
Nothing comprehensive, just a reaction: Unending torture folk (which many of us once were) have such bizarre gaps in understanding, such unreasonable and unbiblical ideas it becomes incredible to me how they continue unchecked by truth except for continual reinforcement from the ones held in honor by those around them in addition to an ongoing ignorance (which, in many I encounter, amounts to stubbornness) about what the Bible does or does not say.
Permeating the numbered assertions at the head of this thread, more or less, is the lack of any recognition of justice. It is a large topic itself, what so unethical a worldview in the minds of religious people means for their behavior! Cartoon Christianitys popular teaching simply has no concept of justice, that there is a just recompense for doing right or wrong. Whoever may have lived the most abominable life, if before death gets a certain idea he believes about Jesus, preferably along with a crisis experience affecting the emotions, won't suffer any consequences from a rotten life, but will receive undeserved heavenly bliss forever. Whoever lives an upright life, sacrificing to raise good children, by not getting that certain idea to believe about Jesus before death will get no reward but will deservedly (!?) suffer eternal torment. This should be recognized as what is indeed popularly taught. It's either infinitude of grace, which involves nothing justly deserved, or it's infinitude of torment, which is impossible for finite, weak-willed, poor of resources, short-lived and mind-darkened man to justly earn. Did they ever learn such simple arithmetic as 1+1=2, or, 2+2=4?
If I steal an apple God does not require infinite never ending repayment of apples. That is not justice. God states clearly what just recompense is in His written word. To overthrow it and replace it with infinitudes is error very dark indeed. To dismiss the description of Divine values with a misunderstood word, "legalism," may not be as dark but may prove just as deadly. God provided a knowledge of right judgments for thieves. They're to repay double (Ex 22:4) unless what was stolen can't be returned. Then it's a fourfold repayment (Ex 22:1.) If a man's means to make a living, the tools of his trade are stolen, like an ox, it is a fivefold restitution. That is God's sanctions for thieves. In Numbers 5:6-8 for any sin, it is the principle plus a 5th that is payed to the one wronged besides the ram of atonement. What is seemingly never considered is, if you commit a sin and pay for it, then that's the end of it. The popular teaching is any sin is unrepayable and infinite. Without Divine intervention the result is infinitude of evil (which ignores what that would do to God, but I digress.) How about the sinner paying for his sin? And, why pay for something forgiven? Not just "justice," but the meaning of God is little known. This leads to what the more important meaning of Christs death is (His becoming Lord of the dead and the end of Adam,) but that's another subject. It's as if the oft repeated saying in Scripture, even taught by Jesus, that, "[God] will render to every man according to his deeds" has no power in many minds. Yes, repentance and faith are recompensable deeds, but continuing with this circular argument leads to making the concept of reaping what you sow meaningless again.
Some versions sidestep it by translating, " 'freed' from sin;" But, here is a marvelous statement from above: "One who dies has been 'justified' from sin." (Rom 6:7) This is literally what is written.
Good Answer.
It's seems so apparent, I'm amazed at both eternal tormenters and temperol tormenters both!!!
To be thrown in the lake of fire is to be annhilated forever (second death).
Just like when you burn your trash in the 'barrel' of fire! The trash is gone, burnt ...no more. In the end there will be no more death (thus the metaphor that death is thrown in the 'lake of fire').
But, who will understand??
1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Here we go with a abit of here a little there a little (Case in point; Some of you will see it!!!):
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
To be cast into the lake of fire is to experience the second death or total destruction of the soul/entity. A death that has no power on those in Christ.
Peace in Christ.
Hey Peacetroll, what about Paul's alls? Or Jesus' alls for that matter?
First,
since precept is built upon precept,
Do you see how the second death...also called the lake of fire....is a metaphor for the verb "destroyed"???
Peace to you in Christ.
Quote from: fullarmor2 on January 11, 2008, 06:50:26 AM
Hey Peacetroll, what about Paul's alls? Or Jesus' alls for that matter?
I am not PT. However to focus on "All" is a mistake. That is because every "All" is qualified and catagorized to what it is quantifying. All does not universally mean all. If I say "The children in Sunday School came to me this morning, and all were given a big hug." Who is the 'all' in that statement? What is happening? Did 'all' include the adults in the sanctuary? Or all the people who walked down the street? No. Neither did all mean all the children of the world, or children who were not in Sunday School. All the "all" quantified was the "children in Sunday School".
Very good distinction SOTW!
Another word that the world takes for granted the definition thereof is also 'Man' or 'Men', a word that changes meaning depending on the context of the discussion and level of the meaning (spiritual or earthy).
A Man or men in earthy general terms appears to mean all human beings or persons of the Homo sapien class. It could also been taken to mean beings of the homo sapien class that have the chromosome pairing of XY as opposed to XX.
A man or men in the spiritual or heavenly definition is one with Christ indwelling, and those with Christ in them are the Body or Temple or House, in whom his name is written...which is ..." Man."
I believe 'man' should have been capitalized, but that is the opinion of one man, myself. Of course emphasizing 'man' in the following scriptures would have been to clear as well, giving a greater opportunity for everyone to make the connection or the deeper spiritual meaning of being a 'man'.
The darkness has blinded the world through a myriad of tools from materialism (greed for money and gain), twisting of scripture from translation to translation for eons to flat out murdering sects of christians who were too close to the truth (thus murdered by the state or church in the name of whatever noble cause they could muster for the ignorant masses).
Regardless, if we pay attention to who Jesus declared himself to be (see following scriptures),...then we may get some insight into the Fathers true name.....
Mark 2:10
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Luke 6:5
And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Did Jesus declare his name? What did he call himself? Who's son was he???
John 17:26
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Those in Christ and he in them have what written in their hearts evident by their fruits?
What classifies one as 'righteous' in Peter's, David's and Christ' eyes?
What classifies one as 'wicked' to each one of these 'mens' opinions?
Have a good weekend everyone.
Peacetroll.
Quote from: SOtW on January 11, 2008, 06:41:07 PM
Quote from: fullarmor2 on January 11, 2008, 06:50:26 AM
Hey Peacetroll, what about Paul's alls? Or Jesus' alls for that matter?
I am not PT. However to focus on "All" is a mistake. That is because every "All" is qualified and catagorized to what it is quantifying. All does not universally mean all. If I say "The children in Sunday School came to me this morning, and all were given a big hug." Who is the 'all' in that statement? What is happening? Did 'all' include the adults in the sanctuary? Or all the people who walked down the street? No. Neither did all mean all the children of the world, or children who were not in Sunday School. All the "all" quantified was the "children in Sunday School".
I hear you. Although I don't think its a mistake if you have the right context. The context of your "all" example makes your point pretty obviously. Not so regarding the contexts containing the "alls" I'm referring to. For example. The "If I be lifted up" verse. The all in this verse means all I would think.(particularly in light of all other similar verses) Whereas the all in your example clearly does not mean all, but only those in the class. I think its all about the context.
Now, your right, folks can easily disagree and take the position that the alls I'm talking about don't mean all like you said. However, all you have to do is talk about all the salvation verses that use all. Starting with the first promises of salvation and blessing to Abraham, and his seed, so ALL the World can be blessed, right on down the line. And you should be able to show that its alot less reasonable to take the position that all does not mean all in these verses.
God will cause all men to be saved.Men to God are all who are in His family,the sons of God,who is Man which is in heaven Called the Father!
Ephesians 3:14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Think what this means in Psalms.
Psalm 107:40He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.
41Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock.
42The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.
This tells us that families He makes here who are His flock,are all part of that one big family He is the Father of in heaven and on earth,that good shepherd.
In this time there are in those families few who are chosen to understand rejoice,they are the Bride of Christ.
Jeremiah 3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Married means totally commited to.
All means all but you must understand the context.
Take what Jesus said about our pearls of wisdom He has given us.Was He telling one not to preach to dogs and pigs?Or,is He talking about the spiritual condition of many human beings?
Mathew 7:6Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Look at what happened to Stephen when he was forced to cast his pearls before swine!
Acts 7:53Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
54When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Were these beasts spiritually men, as Stephen was?
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 12, 2008, 09:08:28 PM
God will cause all men to be saved.
Yup!
Who will have all men to be saved = ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai.
Qelei/ willeth marking a determinate purpose.
Literally: who willeth all men. As who, or seeing that He, giving the ground of the previous statement, prayer to God for all is acceptable to Him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Again I ask,are all human beings men to God?
Consider what Jesus said in this parable.
Matthew 13: 34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
He just explained who planted the wheat,and who planted the tare.
Here He explains again what will happen to those not planted by God.
Matthew 15:12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Therefore,all human beings are not men in the eyes of God, only those whom He planted are part of man.Those called tares are not planted by Him,and are not seen as men.
A wheat plant and a tare look the same until the time of harvest when the fruit head forms.The wheat forms a head with wheat kernals,some 30,some 60,and some an hundred.
Tares mature a bitter black poisonous shriveled seed of no use at all.
You can not tell the wheat from the tare until the heads develope, so untill then you would destroy the wheat to get the tares out of the field.Why jesus said:
Matthew 13:28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
He explained how to learn to know tares by their works.
Matthew 7:15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
The wheat are not the tares,and the tares will never be made wheat.
All men will be saved,every man in his own order.The tares will be destroyed from the presence of God,all at the same time,with their father and his angels.
Paul told the truth, being, as he himself said, a deciver, yet, truthfull.Will you take a litteral interpetation of what Paul said over the many declarations of Jesus,God with us,
about this very thing?Remember the warning of Peter to all about wrestling with Paul's writings.
2 Peter 3:15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
What did the churches know before?THE WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST!
Quote from: FineLinen on January 13, 2008, 03:50:09 PM
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 12, 2008, 09:08:28 PM
God will cause all men to be saved.
Yup!
Who will have all men to be saved = ov pantav anqrwpouv qelei swqhnai.
Qelei/ willeth marking a determinate purpose.
Literally: who willeth all men. As who, or seeing that He, giving the ground of the previous statement, prayer to God for all is acceptable to Him, because he wills the salvation of all.
Salvation for all mankind. Not 'all'.
Quote from: SOtW on January 13, 2008, 09:07:34 PMSalvation for all mankind. Not 'all'.
It can only mean one of three things.
1) All will be saved.
2) Not all, some will be incarcerated forever.
3) Not all, some will be destroyed.
Which do you think it is SOtW?
This reply:
QuoteIt can only mean one of three things.
1) All will be saved.
2) Not all, some will be incarcerated forever.
3) Not all, some will be destroyed.
Which do you think it is SOtW?
...is irrelevant because it is a strawman argument. I am not talking about salvation of mankind, I am talking about the usage of 'all'. When I say Jesus saved all mankind, I mean He saved all mankind. We ALWAYS need to QUANTIFY and QUALIFY what ALL means. We cannot say, "Jesus saved all," because that is wrong, he did not save 'all'. We can say, "Jesus saved all mankind," because that is correct, He saved 'all mankind'. 'All' is an adjective and needs a noun to qualify it.
Exactly!
Jesus did save all 'mankind' and thats the bottom line.
Now we SHOULD focus on the actual spiritual definition of 'mankind'! and NOT the earthy definition to give us a clearer understanding!!!
What seperates a 'man' from a 'beast' in the spiritual sense????
The scriptures below have a spiritual message, I believe if we have not Christ in us we are merely 'beasts' in God's eyes, and not men.....
Jonah 3:8
But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Job 18:3
Wherefore are we counted as beasts, and reputed vile in your sight?
Jude 1:10
But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.
2 Peter 2:12
But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction,
Without Christ in us we are not his brothers or sisters. If we are not his kin, then we are not sons or daughters of God or 'Man' in heaven. Therefore we are not 'Men' or 'Mankind' in the spiritual sense, and it is the spiritual that matters in the long run!!!
Idea on Idea, line upon line,...here a little there a little my friends!!!
If you do believe in Christ (and in truth), then you (by the GRACE of God), have been chosen/elected to be adopted into his family....you are a 'Man' and being a member of 'mankind' you now KNOW to do good and reject the evil!!!!!!
Micah 6:8
He has told you, O man (or O true believer in Christ!!!!), what is good;and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
And Jesus gave 'Mankind' not 'beasts' the following commandment...
John 15:12
"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
How can we know a 'beast' (or one in darkness) from a 'man' (or one in the light) ......spiritually speaking??
BY THEIR FRUITS!!!!!!!!!!!!
I believe all mankind is talking all who are the decendents of Adam and Nations under Abraham. There is no difference, mankind refers to the mortal being of the homosapien race.
How do you explain this prayer of Jesus for the children of God?
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Nothing you provided PT, gives any credibility to your argument to your definition of mankind. Nowhere does it support your position in any of John 17. The distinction you think you see, is not there.
SOTW.
Perhaps you will answer this for me.
Is a 'man' in God's view your spiritual condition or simply the flesh bones and blood?
Do you always take 'man' and 'mankind' in the literal sense of every context??????
Is Christ the son of Man? or not????
How would you define 'Man' in the spiritual sense?
(try looking beyond the chromosomes that make up the flesh!). I've presented many scriptures that indicate my point, if you still see no validity in the pose, I can only say I tried!
Regardless,......I look forward to your reply.
Galatians 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Psalm 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Man is man. Mankind is mankind.
Oh, just go ahead and love everybody, even your enemies, as Jesus said to do, and it will shortly become apparent to you that, "the Living God" is, "The Saviour of ALL mankind, specially of believers." (1 Tim 410) Without that, how can you truly be, "...in God's house, which is the ecclesia of the Living God, the pillar and base of the Truth"? (1 Tim 315)
Quote from: reFORMer on January 15, 2008, 09:06:21 AM
Oh, just go ahead and love everybody, even your enemies, as Jesus said to do, and it will shortly become apparent to you that, "the Living God" is, "The Saviour of ALL mankind, specially of believers." (1 Tim 410) Without that, how can you truly be, "...in God's house, which is the ecclesia of the Living God, the pillar and base of the Truth"? (1 Tim 315)
Yep, that verse that establishes it reFORMer :) Amen.
spe·cial·ly [ spésh'lee ]
adverb
Definition:
expressly: for a special or particular purpose, person, or occasion
It was intended specially for preschoolers.
I had it specially made.
The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek: málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all." Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered "that is," "in other words," or similar expressions. If we use that translation in 1 Timothy 4:10, the interpretational problem disappears: "Because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, that is, of those that believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles. There is no need to introduce the idea of universalism or of a legal salvation that has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual.
On the cross God made provision for the salvation of every human being, but only those who believe will be saved.
Laymens Terms.
1 Timothy 4:10 the word 'specially' in the the english translations and modern translations is a qualifying term.
'specially' = málista = 'that is' = a qualifier exlaining the exact meaning of who will be saved. And this lines up perfectly then with Christ' words...
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
And Pauls' difficult to be understood epistles now makes perfect sense!
Good day!
Thus "in Adam SOME die and thus SOME are made righteous in Christ."
You cannot have you cake and eat it Eric.
Blessings
I hope you at least digest what was placed instead of instantly being contentious and having divergent conversations world without end.
IN Adam ALL do die.
In Christ All are made alive!
As I've been trying to tell you, all those who believe in Christ are alive and will live.
Unless you be born again (born in Christ), you will die in your sins (flesh/Adam mechanizm).
Quote from: Peacetroll on January 15, 2008, 06:07:55 PM
I hope you at least digest what was placed instead of instantly being contentious and having divergent conversations world without end.
IN Adam ALL do die.
In Christ All are made alive!
As I've been trying to tell you, all those who believe in Christ are alive and will live.
Unless you be born again (born in Christ), you will die in your sins (flesh/Adam mechanizm).
Others have challenged your approach of ignoring texts and I have said you cherry pick.
I read your posts yet you do not read mine. You make salvation dependant on our choices thus you pull God down to a carnal level.
None of you folk can answer one question. What of those that never heard? Romans 18-20 I am afraid does not cut it, that was written to believers, they knew.
You are sin focussed, I am not.
Blessings
1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.
Since you want to be specific, I do not know what translation reFORMer uses but the word word 'specially' is actually translated 'especially', translated from the greek word 'Malista' which does not mean 'specially' as PeaceTroll defines it.
Malista = Especially, with special notice to, in particular, etc.
So here is the example:
I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, especially my Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.
Now does this mean I did not say hello to all the guests?
Now does this mean I only said hello to Mr. and Mrs. Lyons?
If we are going to use words and grammar, we need to understand the language we are using.
1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.
Sets it quite clear, that all men, refers to the mortal perishable creature that we are, whether believer or unbeliever, and He is savior of all men especially of the believer.
I am belief focused. :thumbsup:
Talk about ignoring scriptures. I post many that go hand in glove.I get one or two back with what you think they mean , making up the bulk of your rejection of overwhelming evidence presented. :dontknow: :dontknow:
Sotw,the greek was explained,especially is a word english uses to interchange with specially that is used as you say, still, the word malista means 'that is',or 'in other words'
in the context with which Paul used it.
When Jesus spoke of being born from above or as the rich young ruler (Paul?) had it, "born again," (In John 3) He said concerning how this may be that it is like from where the wind blows, "You cannot tell!"
On the day of Pentecost when Peter was speaking to the crowd (in Acts 2) concerning how to be "saved" he could say how: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (v.38)
QuoteOn the day of Pentecost when Peter was speaking to the crowd (in Acts 2) concerning how to be "saved" he could say how: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (v.38)
Then one day, God rebuked Peter and he repented from ever saying this again. (in Acts 10, 11) ;) Do not call unclean, that which I have already declared clean.
QuoteSotw,the greek was explained,especially is a word english uses to interchange with specially that is used as you say, still, the word malista means 'that is',or 'in other words'
in the context with which Paul used it.
It has not been used as 'that is, or 'in other words' anywhere in translation, nor do Greek scholars agree with you.
Can you explain what is being said by John the babtist in these verses from John?
John 3:31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
If no man recieved his testimony,how can John then say he that hath recieved?
Then again,why did John say this?
John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Why did Luke write this?
Luke 21:16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
No one is hated by all,every man living on the planet.Think context.In thiese cases it means by the majority of human beings.
Wouldn't you think that many phrases used in those times had to be considered in context to the statement made?It is the same with the use of the word all in the scriptures.
Quote from: SOtW on January 14, 2008, 09:02:47 AM
This reply:
QuoteIt can only mean one of three things.
1) All will be saved.
2) Not all, some will be incarcerated forever.
3) Not all, some will be destroyed.
Which do you think it is SOtW?
...is irrelevant because it is a strawman argument. I am not talking about salvation of mankind, I am talking about the usage of 'all'. When I say Jesus saved all mankind, I mean He saved all mankind. We ALWAYS need to QUANTIFY and QUALIFY what ALL means. We cannot say, "Jesus saved all," because that is wrong, he did not save 'all'. We can say, "Jesus saved all mankind," because that is correct, He saved 'all mankind'. 'All' is an adjective and needs a noun to qualify it.
I see what you mean SOtW. I agree. Your being very specific and I think thats a good thing.
Again,
Answer if you will...
Can you explain what is being said by John the babtist in these verses from John?
John 3:31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
If no man recieved his testimony,how can John then say he that hath recieved?
Then again,why did John say this?
John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Why did Luke write this?
Luke 21:16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
No one is hated by all, or every man living on the planet.
Think context.
In thiese cases it means by the majority of human beings.
Wouldn't you think that many phrases used in those times had to be considered in context to the statement made? It is the same with the use of the word all in the scriptures.
Really, just pray, intercede and give thanks for ALL people (1 Tim 21) for a while. Pray for your enemies, those you don't like, whose sins make them repugnant to you. Pray for them til you get free from any condemnation toward them, til you feel yourself utterly at peace with the entire world, "Not reckoning their offenses to them." (1 Cor 519) This is the spiritual realm you're entering wherein is the law of life. It is what is in Christ Jesus . You don't get free from the law of sin unto death while holding sin, even that of others. (Rom 81-3) These are God's love commands heeded by the nature He plants in us. This is some of how anyone can enter into the world of love which is God, in whose presence is fullness of joy. I feel like a dull and repetitious old man, ignored in some corner somewhere. But, I found out that if you obey God, your eyes open to things previously imperceptible.
I say this because, unless we're in an utmost desperation before God for our own welfare or for those we love, I've found that most of us (particularly males) have little regard for the doctrinal fortresses we can spin, practically out of thin air, where we "righteously" consign vast numbers of innocent people to some ungrasped horror, a thing we proclaim that is merciless and an unexamined evil not worthy of even the thoughts of a good man, much less God.
When it really matters, you seek diligently for the mercy you hope against hope that you'll surely find, like the Shepherd that sought the one "annihilated" sheep until found and so saved the 99+1=100 (%) sheep, the woman whose "annihilated" drachma was searched for diligently and celebrated over when found, and the Father looking to see the returning prodigal son that was "annihilated' and celebrating over his return with great joy! If the word used to prove annihilation was used consistently for every Greek occurence you would find it in these verses.
Greek: "ap ol' lu mi," lit., "FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE;" lose, in the complete state, pass out of one's possession or beyond reach, then the means of doing this, destroy, middle voice, perish...this is the word on which the argument that the wicked are "annihilated" hangs. "Perish" in John 315,16: "Should not perish," which you've quoted to prove it, is this word. But these are the very ones Jesus came to save in Luke 1910! the ones to whom He was sent in Mat 1524. This is to whom the apostles were sent in Matthew 106, "the 'lost' (destroyed, annihilated?) sheep of the house of Israel."
This was what the one sheep was called that the Shepherd reasoned with us that we would also track down to save in Luke 154,6. I like the example, between that of the Shepherd (Jesus) saving the 99+1=100 (%) sheep and the Father with the prodigal son, of the woman (Spirit) whose drachma was "annihilated" in Luke 158-9!
Since almost any use of concordances and interlinears should prove what I've just put before you, there should be no more argument. Change your mind (Gk., "metanoia!") A line I early learned from Finney was: "Adjust to increasing light as rapidly as possible!"
---James Rohde
:goodpost: James :wink:
I think this lengthy quote belongs in this thread.
18 objections agains UR answered.
Objections
1. Appointed Once to Die
2. "All" not all
3. "Things" not people
4. Undermines missions
5. Let's party!
6. Unrighteous & Kingdom
7. Rich man and Lazarus
8. Losing the soul
9. Undermines faith
10. Unpardonable sin
11. Esau hated
12. Judas
13. While He may be found
14. Fear of the Lord
15. Everlasting destruction
16. Gnashing teeth
17. Cruel God
18. Why hidden?
200 Hope Beyond Hell
1. Appointed Once to Die, After Judgment (He. 9:27)
Yes, judgment will come; all Christians know this. However, the issue
in question is the nature and duration of that judgment, not its incontestable
fact. Is there a remedial or restorative element to it, or is it solely
retributive? This passage does not address this.
2. "All" Does Not Mean All.
Some claim the "all" in the context of the Blessed Hope promises does
not mean every single person, that is not all without exception, but merely
all without distinction. However, Dr. Keith DeRose, Yale Philosophy
professor (areas of Spec. Philosophy of Language), also a believer, wrote:
Quantifier phrases...are to be understood...relative to a
contextually determined domain....When the domain is
limited, there has to be some fairly clear clue about what
the limited domain is. When "all" is used in the NT, as in
"All have sinned [Ro. 3:23] and fallen short of the glory of
God," the "all" I take it, refers to all people. It could possibly
refer to some restricted class of people, but that suggestion
is to be rejected, because (a) there is no such restricted
class that clearly presents itself, (b) it's incumbent on a
speaker to make clear what the class is if he means it to be
restricted, and (c) the N.T. does not specify any such restricted
class. So, "All have sinned" means that all people
have sinned, as almost all would agree.1
DeRose goes on to say as "all" have sinned is not restricted, so are the
passages supporting our theme (as found in Appendix I). He continues,
What restricted class of people could be meant? [ Ro. 5:18
and 1 Co. 15:22 for example] Surely not all the saved; that
would turn the statements into useless tautologies: all the
saved are saved? The Biblical writers aren't so incompetent
as to mean some specially restricted class that
doesn't clearly present itself without making it clear.2
Were it not for the prevailing view's agenda, the "all," in such passages
as 1Co. 15:22 would never have been questioned in the first place. Consider
a text shedding light on this. "You have put all things in subjection under
His feet" (He. 2:8). Is there a restricted sense to "all" in this passage?
Appendix III 201
A "You have put all things in subjection under his feet.
B For in that He put all things in subjection under Him,
C He left nothing that is not put under Him.
D But now we do not yet see all things put under Him."
This is a unique passage, as it provides its own built in commentary.
What if this passage only contained clause A, like most Blessed Hope
passages? Then some could argue "all" only means all without distinction,
because "all things" are not presently in subjection. However, those additional
clauses give us a biblical model for other Blessed Hope promises.
The passage reveals two very important truths. "All" in this promise
means all without exception and not distinction. It will find its fulfillment in
God's appointed time. Note the words "but now" and "not yet." Clause C
shows "all" is without exception. No one would contest this. Clause D
specifies God's promises will find their fulfillment in due time though at
present, it is not so. If there is any question about the compatibility of this
passage with other Blessed Hope texts, it is refuted by the following statement
directly linked by a second "but." "But we see Jesus...by the grace of
God...taste death for everyone" (He. 2:9). We can wholeheartedly trust God
when He says "all" in His Blessed Hope promises; "all" is not a mysterious
code word for "some."
3. "Things" Do Not Mean "People"?
See "Restoration of All Things," Chapter 7.
4. Undermines Missions
When He saw the multitudes, He was moved with compassion, because they were weary
and scattered, ["distressed and dispirited"—NAS] like sheep having no shepherd. Then He
said, "The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord to
send out laborers into His harvest."
(Mt. 9:36-38)
The world is full of hurting people. They are weary, scattered, distressed,
and dispirited, longing for some good news about life. Christ was moved with
compassion as He contemplated that reality. He responded by urging prayer
for workers in the harvest! People need to know the loving Creator who wants
to bring joy, hope, and peace to their lives. "He has anointed Me to preach the
gospel [good tidings] to the poor...heal the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to
the captives, recovery of sight to the blind, set at liberty...oppressed" (Lu.
4:18).
Dare we deprive the hurting, brokenhearted, captives, blind, and oppressed
of the abundant life Christ paid so dearly to give them? Think back a
moment to what your life was like without knowing God. Did your life have
202 Hope Beyond Hell
meaning and purpose? How did you handle the idea of your approaching
death or that of your loved ones? Do you want to go back to that? What a
depressing thought to think this life may be all there is. It is anchored in the
heart of man the desire to live forever. Everyone needs hope, peace, joy, and a
future to look forward to. Christ exhorts us to not let our hearts be troubled
because He goes to prepare a place for us! We need to reach out to all around
us with troubled hearts! "Blessed be the Father of mercies and God of all
comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation that we may be able to comfort
those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are
comforted by God" (2Co. 1:3, 5).
The fear of death is the greatest curse this world has ever known. No person
born is spared this lifelong bondage (He. 2:15). How can we be fulfilled in
our daily walk with Christ if we do not embody His compassion for the
multitudes hurting all around us? They may not show it outwardly, but deep
down in their heart of hearts, the dreaded fear lurks...it waits...waits for an
opportune moment to remind them once again of their fate. What a curse! Let
us proclaim the Good News to the poor, heal the brokenhearted, and proclaim
liberty to the oppressed.
In summary, why evangelize? People are hurting; Christ commands us
(Mt. 28:18-20; Mk. 16:15); and woe to us if we do not (1Co. 9:16; Lu. 12:47;
Ro. 14:10). Why should we need Christ's command or warnings to motivate
us? Should not His compassion in us be sufficient? At times the Holy Spirit
will lead us to refer to God's just and righteous judgments when presenting
the Good News as we sometimes see in Acts. We must be careful in so doing
that we do not compromise the "Good News." It must always remain "glad
tidings of great joy" (Lu. 2:10). "How beautiful are the feet of those who
preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things" (Ro.
10:15)!
5. If God Accepts Everyone in the End,
Let's Party!
Be warned, "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
(He. 10:31). "Do not be deceived, He will not be mocked; for whatever we
sow, we reap" (Ga. 6:7). "To whom much is given much is required" (Lu.
12:48. 10:29). Of how much worse punishment will one deserve who has
trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant (by
which he was sanctified) a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace
(He. 10:29)? To take God's just and righteous judgments lightly, does
injustice to the blood of the covenant and will not go unaccounted. If you
are of this mindset, see Appendix II.
Appendix III 203
6. The Unrighteous Shall Not Inherit
The Kingdom (1Co. 6:9, Ep. 5:5)
The unrighteous, while in that state, cannot inherit God's Kingdom.
But they will not always be such. God will make them righteous. We too
were in their company, remember? (Ro 5:6, 10) Throughout the ages, God
will continue His transforming work in His creation until such a time as all
are transformed into the likeness of Christ. The key lies in the mystery of the
ages. God's plan for mankind will not fail.
7. What About the Rich Man and Lazarus?
(Lu. 16:19-31)
Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to
you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.
(Lu. 16:26)
This passage is saying that while the chastisement is taking place, one
cannot up and leave at will. It does not say that once the last penny is paid,
there will be no release. For Christ says, "You will by no means get out of there
till you have paid the last penny" (Mt. 5:26). Rightly dividing the Word of
truth requires we compare Scripture with Scripture, line upon line, to arrive
at truth. We must not read and interpret passages in isolation from others,
especially the symbolic portions, like this parable. This leads to error, for one
part provides light on another. If you have a flawed concept of a key word
(Hades in this case) or theme (judgment), you will naturally read that idea
into the passage, and your understanding of the whole passage will be flawed.
The "fixed gulf" refers to a situation relative to a given period of time. If
a road has been covered with deep snowdrifts, we well might tell someone
who wants to drive through it, "You cannot cross over from there to us."
However, once the snow trucks plow the road, or the sun melts the snow,
the road is clear once again.
This parable does not contradict that Christ has the keys of Hades,
which signify He has the authority over it to lock or unlock it at will. "I have
the keys of Hades and of Death" (Re. 1:18). "He who has the key of David,
He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens" (Re. 3:7).
Neither does it contradict that Christ went and preached to the spirits
in prison who formerly were disobedient in the days of Noah (1Pe. 3:19-20),
and preached the gospel to the dead that they might be judged according to
men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit (1Pe. 4:6). "He
ascended on high and led captivity captive, giving gifts to men. Now this
ascending means that He first descended into the lower parts of the earth
[Hades]. He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the
heavens, that He might fill all things" (Ep. 4:8-9).
204 Hope Beyond Hell
Christ, having all authority and power, who holds the keys of Hades,
has Himself crossed the gulf, as Peter and Paul stated. Besides, even if He
had not already demonstrated this, is anything too hard for the Lord (Ge.
18:14; Jer. 32:17; Mt. 19:26; Mk. 10:26-27; Lu. 1:37; 18:27)?
With all confidence, the Psalmist could say, "God will redeem my soul
from the power of the grave [Sheol, Strongs #7585]" (Ps. 49:15). "You
brought my soul up from the grave [Sheol]" (Ps. 30:3). "I will ransom them
from the power of the grave [Sheol]; I will redeem them from death. O
Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave [Sheol], I will be your destruction"
(Hos. 13:14)!
Even if Christ lacked the power or will to cross the "gulf," (which is inconceivable)
it will be destroyed in the lake of fire, also called the second
death (Re. 20:14). Once Hades and Death are destroyed (1Co. 15:26), all will
be subjected to Christ that God may be all in all (1Co. 15:28). "O Death,
where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory" (1Co. 15:55)? But, if
most of humanity were locked in hell forever, Hades would be victorious.
8. Losing the Soul?
For what will it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what
shall a man give in return for his life?
(Mt. 16:26 RSV)
The word "soul" in some translations is misleading because it conjures
up the idea of the "eternal spirit" thought to be forever lost in hell. A close
study of the Greek word, psuchē, will show that it is commonly translated
"life." The Jerusalem Bible translates this passage, "What, then will a man
gain if he wins the whole world and ruins his life? Or what has a man to
offer in exchange for his life?"
I think the idea of "ruining" one's life is more in tune with Christ's own
amplification of this passage in the following verse. "And then He will
reward each according to his works" (Mt. 16:27). To "reward each according
to his works" is a confirmation of the Blessed Hope, which acknowledges
that God renders to each person according to what they deserve, no more,
no less. The spirit of the passage is the same as Mt. 19:21: "If you want to be
perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have
treasure in heaven...." Here Christ is speaking of perfection.
With this in mind, I would say to lose one's life, means one is losing the
opportunity of living a perfect life, one that is fruitful. It is a great loss
because only through sacrificing oneself for God and others, do we find joy
and meaning in life. It is a great deception to seek after that which is only
worthless in the end. Jesus taught us to lay up treasures in heaven, and not
on earth (Mt. 6:19). These treasures consist of good works that bless others
(Mt. 25:44-45; Ja. 1:27; 1Jn. 3:17-18). This is the true wealth.
Appendix III 205
Bottom line: "I have come that they may have life, and that they may
have it more abundantly" (Jn. 10:10). If you seek to gain life's pleasures for
yourself, you are missing out on the abundant life Christ came to give you.
You are losing, or wasting your life. Does that mean God is going to throw
you out like a piece of trash? No! He will chastise you (according to your
works) like the loving Father He is. He, in His own way and time, will cause
you to learn the lessons you are destined to learn about life. It may not be
easy, but it will be fruitful. Read He. 12:5-11. Whatever else it might mean to
lose one's life, it does not mean God cannot or will not restore it in His own
"due time," in keeping with all His Blessed Hope promises, so abundantly
attested to throughout His Word.
9. He That Believes Not the Son Shall
Not See Life (Jn. 3:36)
Here is a more accurate translation of this passage as presented in the
Concordant Literal Translation. "He who is believing in the Son has life
eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but
the indignation of God is remaining on him" (Jn. 3:36 CLT). No one, while
in unbelief, is seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him.
This indignation, does not mean God is not loving that person, but the
contrary, it is an expression of His love working in that life to effect
change. For if this passage presented a hopeless scenario, then none of us
could have ever received salvation, for we all at one time were in unbelief.
"God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon
all"(Ro. 11:32 KJV).
10. Unpardonable Sin (Mk. 3:29-30)?
This is discussed on page 67, fourth text. The word "never" is not in the
Greek! Consider how the literal translations read:
♦ 'Whoever should be blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is having
no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the
sin'—for they said, 'An unclean spirit has he' (Mk. 3:28-30 CLT).
♦ 'Whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness—
to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' because
they said, 'He hath an unclean spirit' (Mk. 3:28-30 YLT).
♦ 'Whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness,
unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin':
because they were saying—'An impure spirit, he hath!' (Mk. 3:28-
30 ROTH).
206 Hope Beyond Hell
11. Esau Hated (Mal. 9:13)?
This is a play on words similar to Christ's command to hate our family
(Lu. 14:26). Of course Jesus wants us to love our families, but in our heart of
hearts, our deepest love should be for God. This is hyperbole, something very
common in ancient biblical writings. God's hate regarding Esau relates to
something about Esau that is disliked in a greater way than what God dislikes
about Jacob the "deceiver." When God elects one over another, it does not
mean He loves them more, but rather He is delegating to them a greater
responsibility in His service.
12. Better Had Judas Not Been Born?
The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to
that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have
been good for that man if he had not been born.
(Mt. 26:24)
This passage posed a real obstacle for me as I contemplated the Blessed
Hope. It did not take long to resolve however, once I dug deeper and found
that this is a mistranslation. Observe closely the difference in how the
following literal translations read. The Wycliff and Tyndale translations
read the same. The Revised Version of 1881 and the American Standard
Version of 1901 put in the margin "G00d for him if that man."
♦ The Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning
him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is delivered
up! Good it were for him if that man had not been born (Mt.
26:24 YLT).
♦ The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written
concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of
Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were
not born (Mt. 26:24 CLT)!
♦ The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him. But woe to
that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better
for him, if that man had not been born (Mt. 26:24 Douay).
♦ The Son of Man, indeed, goeth his way, according as it is written
concerning him,—But alas! for that man, through whom the Son of
Man, is being delivered up: Well, had it been for him, if, that man,
had not been born (Mt. 26:24 ROTH)!
Appendix III 207
Consider how the Greek Interlinear presents it:
o <3588> {THE} men <3303> {INDEED} uiov <5207>
tou <3588> {SON} anyrwpou <444> {OF MAN} upagei
<5217> (5719) {GOES,} kaywv <2531> {AS} gegraptai
<1125> (5769) {IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN} peri <4012>
{CONCERNING} autou <846> {HIM,} [Christ] ouai
<3759> de <1161> tw <3588> {BUT WOE} anyrwpw
<444> ekeinw <1565> {TO THAT MAN} [Judas] di
<1223> {BY} ou <3739> {WHOM} o <3588> {THE}
uiov <5207> tou <3588> {SON} anyrwpou <444> {OF
MAN} paradidotai <3860> (5743) {IS DELIVERED
UP;} kalon <2570> {GOOD} hn <2258> (5713) {WERE
IT} autw <846> {FOR HIM} [Christ] ei <1487> ouk
<3756> {IF} egennhyh <1080> (5681) o <3588> {HAD
NOT BEEN BORN} anyrwpov <444> ekeinov <1565>
{THAT MAN.} [Judas] (Mt. 26:24).
German Bible Scholar and translator, A.E. Knoch wrote:
Dr. Leander van Ess, in his German version, renders it "for
him were it better, such a human were never born." In the
context immediately preceding, the identity of those referred
to is fixed beyond question. It may be set forth as
follows: Him = The Son of Mankind; That man = Judas
The (Son of Mankind) is indeed going away, according as it
is written concerning (Him). Yet woe to "that man"
through whom the (Son of Mankind) is being betrayed!
Ideal were it for (Him) if "that man" were not born!
If it had read "Ideal were it for "that man" if "he" had not
been born (as usually mistranslated) then both would refer
to Judas. But no unprejudiced reader of the English or the
Greek can possibly refer the Him to anyone but our Lord,
Who is so termed in the preceding sentence. But if all the
translations ever made rendered the passage incorrectly,
that would not prove anything except human fallibility.
The original speaks of the Son of Mankind as "Him" and of
Judas as "that man," and makes it clear that it were ideal
for Him if that man were not born.
The real cause of this mistranslation is the hardness of the
human heart. On the one hand, who has been concerned
208 Hope Beyond Hell
with the feelings of our Lord and His distress at having the
traitor in His company? Even His saints seem utterly unable
to sympathize with Him in this trial. On the other
hand, they have allowed a just indignation at Judas" dreadful
deed to degenerate into vindictiveness, and attribute to
our Lord the harshness of their own hearts. In judging Judas
they have condemned themselves.
The Scriptures show the utter helplessness of Judas. How
could he flee from his fate? Not only were the powers of
evil against him, but the powers of good were just as determined
to make him play his part. God Himself had determined
the role he should have. What can a mortal do
when Satan, Christ, and God all force him to commit a
deed so awful in his own eyes it drives him to desperation
and death?
It may help if I confess I once feared to face this issue. I
tried to find a way for God to get out of this dilemma. The
idea that He could make vessels for dishonor (Ro. 9:21),
and then punish them eternally was incredible. And I was
right. God could not do such a thing. My mistake was to
disbelieve God's plain statement and all the evidence which
sustains it in the Scriptures, because I had accepted a false
theology in regard to His future dealings with these vessels
which He fits for destruction. Because I now know God will
not only deal justly with them, but lovingly, I am able to
believe God, and glorify God, and exult in the God Who
remains Love, even when He hardens and hates.3
13. Seek...While He May Be Found (Is. 55:6)?
I think this is calling people to take God seriously now, and that they
need Him now. There is a sense of urgency about the present. It could also
be inferring that God deals with us for a season through grace, but if we
persist in resisting Him, a time will come when we will be judged during
which He is beyond our reach until this judgment has run its course. It does
not say a time will come when people will never be able to find God or that
He will not find them. We must guard from reading into the text what is not
there.
Appendix III 209
14. Knowing the Fear of the Lord, We Persuade Men.
(2Co. 5:11 NAS)
A friend quoted to me this passage in support of the idea that the motivation
for proclaiming the gospel should be the terror of everlasting torment
for those who reject the gospel. I asked him to examine closely the context:
Paul...and Timothy...To the church of God which is at Corinth,
with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia....
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ,
so that each one may receive good or evil, according to
what he has done in the body. Therefore, knowing the fear
of the Lord, we persuade men...(2Co. 1:1, 5:10-11 RSV).
Paul said "we must all" appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so
that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the
body. The "we must all" consists of believers. In his first letter, Paul said,
Woe is me if I do not preach the gospel! (1Co. 9:16). This "fear" relates to
what they as believers would receive if they failed to preach the gospel.
15. Punished with Everlasting Destruction.
(2Th. 1:9)
Marvin Vincent, in Word Studies in the New Testament regarding
olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9 explained:
If olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation
of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios
is superfluous, because extinction is final, and excludes the
idea of duration....In this passage, the word destruction is
qualified. It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord
and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in
the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given
point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the
presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe
this severance as continuing during the millenial
aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as
being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and
characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as
characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding
the final judgment, the extent of which period is
not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as
everlasting...4 (See "Eternity" on my website for full quote.)
210 Hope Beyond Hell
If we cross reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, and its derivative olothrūo in
He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take
the extermination of the "first-born" of Egypt (He. 11:28). Were all these
innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? What do you think? Also,
though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we all know God will restore it in
the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has
He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)? (See also Inescapable
Love of God by Thomas Talbot page 104. See bibliography).
16. Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth.
Barclay wrote, "It was the eastern custom to use language in the most
vivid possible way. Eastern language is always as vivid as the human mind
can make it."5 (See also Allin's quote on page 33).
The following scene depicts a very serious disappointment for God's
unfaithful children, called "sons of the kingdom" in Mt. 8:12 and "unprofitable
servants" in Mt. 25:30. In no case, is it proven to be an eternal state. In
fact, the context indicates the contrary:
In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the
prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being
thrown out. And they shall come from the east, and from
the west, and from the north, and from the south, and
shall sit down in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there
are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall
be last (Lu. 13:28-30).
It is likely the ones thrown out are the very ones who came first but
were not ready. Perhaps they came without their wedding garment (Mt.
22:11-12)? Once their judgment outside runs its course, they will return as
the "first which shall be last." Note the compassionate heart of Christ in
what He says just a few verses further:
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets
and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted
to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her
brood under her wings, but you were not willing! See!
Your house is left to you desolate [with weeping and
gnashing of teeth?]; and assuredly, I say to you, you shall
not see Me until the time comes when you say, "Blessed
is He who comes in the name of the LORD" (Lu. 13:34, 35)!
Appendix III 211
The Lord said they would not see Him "until" the time comes when
they say, "Blessed is He...." This is separation for a season, not eternity.
These who are left desolate are the "first" who are thrown out (Lu. 13:30).
Though thrown out for a time, the "first" will return as "last" (Lu. 13:30)
after they have paid the last cent and washed their robes (Mt. 5:26; 18:34-
35; Lu. 12:59; Re. 22:14). "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that
they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into
the city" (Re. 22:14). "Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell" (Ps.
86:13 KJV).
17. Cruel God
How do you reconcile the cruel God of the Old Testament with the
Blessed Hope? I believe Jesus Christ is the exact representation of the One
true God (He. 1:3). If the Father is seen as cruel in the Old Testament, it is
precisely because we do not know the Blessed Hope. Though God is seen
wiping out entire groups of people from the earth, that does not mean He
won't resurrect them again and see His ultimate purposes fulfilled in them
in the fullness of the times. Dr. Norman Geisler, president of Southern
Evangelical Seminary, has written, co-authored, or edited more than 50
books, including When Skeptics Ask and Inerrancy. He wrote regarding the
Canaanite and Amalekite cultures:
This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible
says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty,
incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, even child sacrifice by
fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate
the Israelites. God took action not only for the sake of
the Israelites but, ultimately, for the sake of everyone
through history whose salvation would be provided by the
Messiah who was to be born among them.
God's purpose in these instances was to destroy the corrupt
nation because the national structure was inherently
evil....Many verses indicate that God's primary desire was
to drive these evil people out of the land they already knew
had been promised for a long time to Israel. That way, Israel
could come in and be relatively free from the outside
corruption that could have destroyed it like a cancer. He
wanted to create an environment where the Messiah could
come for the benefit of millions of people through history.
Besides, under the rules of conduct God had given the Israelites,
whenever they went into an enemy city they were to
212 Hope Beyond Hell
first make the people an offer of peace. The people had a
choice: they could accept that offer, in which case they
wouldn't be killed, or they could reject the offer at their
own peril. That's appropriate and fair. Most of the women
and children would have fled in advance before the actual
fighting began, leaving behind the warriors to face the Israelites.
The fighters who remained would have been the
most hardened, the ones who stubbornly refused to leave,
the carriers of the corrupt culture....God is not capricious,
he's not arbitrary, he's not cruel...he is undeniably just.6
Is this not the way we would expect a just God to act to protect His
world? He had to establish a certain degree of righteousness on earth to
allow for His purposes to be fulfilled.
18. Why Would God Allow This to Be Hidden?
It has not always been so. It was well known and accepted during the
first 500 years of Church history when believers read the Scriptures in
Greek. Yet, it is true God veils truth from certain groups of people for
specific times and purposes. The Church was blinded to salvation by faith
for over a millennium until Luther. The adherents of the major religions of
the world have been blinded for centuries upon centuries. The Lord blinded
the hearts and minds of His audience from understanding His parables. In
the words of Andrew Jukes:
When have God's people as a body ever seen or received any
truth beyond their own dispensation? Take as an instance
Israel of old, whose ways, "ensamples of us," prefigure the
Church of this age. Did they ever receive the call of the Gentiles,
or see God's purpose outside their own election? A few
all through that age spoke of blessings to the world, and
were without exception judged for such a testimony:—
"Which of the prophets have not your fathers slain?" Was
God's purpose to the Gentiles therefore a false doctrine: or,
because His people did not receive it, was it not to be found
in their own Scriptures? The doctrine of the "restitution of
all things" is to the Church what "the call of the Gentiles"
was to Israel. Is Israel's path to teach us nothing? Are men's
traditions about God's purpose to be preferred to His own
unerring Word? But the path is not a new one for the sons of
God. All the prophets perished in Jerusalem. And, above all,
the Lord was judged as a Deceiver, by those whom God had
Appendix III 213
called to be His witnesses. The Church's judgment, therefore,
cannot decide a point like this, if that judgment be in
opposition to the Word of God.7
Mercy Aiken, author of If Hell Is Real, writes:
In the time of Christ most of Israel completely missed the
Word of God when He was in their midst. They were too
busy with their nose in the book, to perceive the Word
Himself as He came and dwelt among them! Certainly the
masses must have thought...."But none of the teachers,
Pharisees, or priests believe that Jesus is the Messiah! And
they know the scripture better than me!" That fact alone
kept many Jews from daring to believe in Jesus. To do so
was heresy and to admit faith in Him was basically asking
for scorn and rejection. We have been quick to point the
finger at the Pharisees, and not realize that we as the
church follow the same pattern today. Are we going to play
it safe and side with the majority, who are clinging to their
traditions and what their teachers have taught them, or will
we risk it all and step out and follow Him?8
Are we to reject the truth of the Blessed Hope on the grounds that it
has not yet been revealed to the Church in fullness? I trust God has His
reasons why He has allowed this to be hidden (Pr. 25:2). Strong evidence
reveals God is beginning to roll away this dark cloud from His Church in
earnest in our time. (See page 177, "Change on the horizon").
CONCLUSION
I do not have all the answers, but God does. Hopefully my answers will
be helpful, and in the very least, provide a model demonstrating how
perplexing passages can be approached.
It's amazing how critical one's prevailing paradigm is. If your paradigm
is the Augustinian view of eternal judgment, then all Bible passages will be
filtered through that mindset. It is not easy to make a transition in paradigm.
What has dominated our thinking all our lives is ingrained in us, and
the grooves run deep. We are not even aware how powerfully it governs our
whole thinking. Only through a committed and determined effort are we
enabled to overcome it. This can only come with God's help. I pray He works
it out in your life as He is doing it in mine.